Jeet Kune Do

[Thomas Vince]

I grew up in Washington State and had the priviledge to train with some of Bruce's best in the summertime's of my high school years. Dan Inosanto was one of Ed Parker;s black belts and was from the phillipines. He decided to go with Bruce Lee on their own journey. Many of the drills, footwork, and principles are what we call "short hand techniques" in Kenpo. I even had the opportunity to witness some refugee's from China who were in the underground city, oh yes there is
a huge underground city in Seattle and when I was growing up there ways into this underground in many other ways than in those tours they give. Go into a restaurant go downstairs and slip through a whole in the concrete or even a door underground and you were in a different world. Many of these refugee's were from the "Tong's" of China, some were teaching and the fighting was real and intense, nothing like "fight club". These guys were serious. There was a lot of stick fighting to and if were lucky you could find someone to train you.There was literally a connection from the old Hawaii sugar cane fields, to the "coolies" of the old railroad days in North America. These people were the real thing. Jeet kune Do was an incomplete system, not designed as a way, in fact "using no way, as way" was the philosophy, yet the foundation was a mixture of Jun Fan, fillipno fighting arts and Ed Parker Kenpo, my favorite topic in Jeet Kune Do is Entering and Trapping.
Great topic,
Sincerely Thomas

[khafra]

**** it, I'm never going to forgive my parents for keeping me homeschooled and away from "harmful influences" like the big, bad city across the lake while I was growing up in Kirkland, now.

[Andy Murray]

Thomas, it is apparent that you are a loyal advocate of Kenpo. A common theme is that you seem to attribute a lot of Bruce Lees successes to his grounding in Kenpo. This is a completely new point of view to me, and not one supported in Linda Lees book 'The man only I knew'. You have just mentioned Dan Inosanto as being a member, but my understanding was that Dan was involved in MA before he ever met Ed Parker. The oddest statement to me is that you say;

Jeet kune Do was an incomplete system, not designed as a way, in fact "using no way, as way" was the philosophy, yet the foundation was a mixture of Jun Fan, fillipno fighting arts and Ed Parker Kenpo

The more popular conception is that Bruce was using anything he thought was valid. Any system is incomplete by it's very nature.

Sorry if I have picked you up wrong, I have just never read any comments like this before!

As a total change of subject, I read that Elvis was a student of Ed Parker. How is he remembered in the style?

Andy Murray

[Thomas Vince]

Andy,
Please don't misunderstand me I am aware of the Jun Fan and Wing Chun influence from Yip Man on Bruce Lee and the it is a fact that the system was never full completed or organized. many of it's fighting philosophies are exactly like those of Kenpo for specific reasons not that I am obviously an advocate of Kenpo, it is the truth. What Linda placed in her book covered most of the history and what was important to the family to let others know.
As far as Dan Inosanto yes he was involved in the martial arts before he met Ed Parker. Mr. Inosanto was in fact one of Ed Parkers Black Belts and met Bruce Lee through Ed Parker. Dan Inosanto added a real flair to Jeet Kune Do. They have added lap sao and other "sticky hand" techniques as well as other Chinese and Philipino techniques to "complete the system." The statements were not meant to "bash" in anyway shape or form, I understand Jeet Kune Do because I took lessons fron Dan Inosanto in Seattle many years ago and I personally understand it as "Shorthand" Kenpo and nothing more. In fact we use a variation of the "wooden dummy" in my studio. When you speak of the "more popular" conception of Jeet Kune Do today it does not reflect what I had experienced 20 years ago. I did enjoy working out with these guys and my shared experience my have come on a little to strong. In the future I will remember that I am talking to other martial artists in other styles and not my own students!
Sincerely,
Thomas Vince

[Andy Murray]

I think I probably speak for a lot of people on the forum when I say; I think I know a lot about other styles, yet further explanation is beneficial. If you could post an article on Kenpo we will all benefit. I only get upset when people try to hoodwink me with their own propoganda, 'my style's better than your style' type stuff. I honestly believe that there would not be the interest in MA there is today if it were not for the influence of three people in this century. It is awfully easy for other people to take credit for their actions when they are no longer with us. I feel that Ed Parker may have been one of these people. Bruce Lee wascertainly another. I'll leave the third up to you all individually.

I would ask you to explain the definition of JKD as being Short-Hand Kenpo however. Perhaps in your article..........

Respectfully
Andy Murray

[Cooler]

Hi Andy,

just to let you know Thomas has already had an article published with us called Angle of Cancellation (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=55) check it out it is a very good read.

Any new articles Thomas would like to submit would be gratfully received.

Cooler

[Andy Murray]

Hi Cooler,

Thanks, but I already caught that one. I really meant something more general about Ed Parkers Kenpo. If you want me to be more specific, the relationship between Kenpo and JKD would be fascinating.

Andy Murray

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Thomas Vince
Dan Inosanto was one of Ed Parker;s black belts and was from the phillipines.

Slight correction: Dan Inosanto isn't from the Philippines. He is Pilipino but he grew up in Stockton, CA. I'm not even sure he's ever been to the Philippines ... and if he has, it wasn't until he was an adult.

Mike

[Andy Murray]

I'd like to hear opinions from people who are training 'period' JKD.

Oakland JKD, Seattle JKD, or Jun Fan etc...........

Just to educate everybody, is anyone willing to explain the differences?

[YODA]

Hi guys

I train "period" JKD

My period is the 21st Century :D

Sorry - couldn't resist :D

[Andy Murray]

Hi Yoda,

from that would I be correct in inerpreting that you try to keep JKD 'evolving', as opposed to the JKD 'Concept' periods I mentioned?

Andy

[YODA]

Yep - one nail hit squarely on the head :D

[Andy Murray]

Hey Yoda,

you don't get away with one liners here mate!

Do you have a base of JKD syllabus that you base your expansions on?

You must know of the 'Concepts' groups I am asking about, so what's your take?

Why do you still use the term JKD?

Reply should be at least three lines I reckon heh heh heh!

Andy

[YODA]

Hehe - OK here goes...

I think the main confusion is the term "JKD". What you refer to as "period groups" is what we call Jun Fan Gung Fu - and yes, that has a curriculum that I use to teach the material that SiJo Bruce Lee passed on to his students. JFGF is, however, only one facet to what we do at Combative Edge Academy. It is our base - the platform from which we embark on our own individual JKD journeys.

Jeet Kune Do however is the process of discovering our own truth in combat using Bruce Lees ideas & concepts as a guide or vehicle.

Of course, this is open to much interpretation, and will be the source of much dischord between rival groups for years to come. Sad really.

Also - as you no doubt realise, you can use another man's quotes (or quotes he quoted) to justify just about any position. But with that in mind here are the "Bruce Lee" quotes that I base my "JKD belief system" on :D

"Using no way as the way : Using no limitation as limitation"

"Using all ways : bound by none"

Some will see a paradox between those two quotes (no way vs all ways) but if you think deeply about it there is no conflict there. It all depends on your view of the 1st quote. I take it to mean using "no WAY" as opposed to using "NO WAY".

I use the term JKD because that's the process we are going through - our goal is totality in combat. we are striving to be functionsl & combative in all ranges, modes & environments of combat. No easy task- but if it was an easy task it wouldn't be worth the trouble.

[Andy Murray]

Hi Yoda,

So you have Jun Fan Gung Fu as your base. Footwork, basic offense and defense.

When do you decide to incorporate something new? Is that up to you personally, or do you wait for a more senior JKD tpe of person to 'greenlight' it first.

Do you think the 'classical' arts, which follow a more linear path are as restricted as they were in Bruce's day?

Not trick questions, just personally interested as I used to crosstrain with some JKD guys.

Andy

[YODA]

Hi Andy

What I "add" to my Jun Fan base is entirely up to me. The only stipulation my instructor makes is that I must teach all ranges & areas to my students. A condition of my Instructorship under him is that I must also teach the 5 "core" arts that make up HIS interpretation of JKD. This ensures that I do not pass on my personal preferences to me students - they must find their own path from the options we give them & the seeds of research we sow in them. Our 5 core arts are designed to give a balanced curriculum covering all ranges. They are....

Jun Fan Gung Fu
Filipino Martial Arts
Muay Thai
Silat
Groundfighting (BJJ / Shoot)

One area that I differ in from my instructor is the FMA - he teaches primarily from the Inosanto/LaCoste Kali system. I teach the basics of this but get the guts of my FMA from the Doce Pares Eskrima system.

Onto your second question: No - I think the vast majority of "classical" arts have progressed in their outlook - even if they won't admit it :D

[Andy Murray]

Hi Yoda,

Fascinating. You say;

A condition of my Instructorship under him is that I must also teach the 5 "core" arts that make up HIS interpretation of JKD.

I may be sticking my nose in too far here, but do you ever find yoursef teaching concepts from the formative period of JKD, that you know have been superceded by later discoveries from systems more recently assimilated!

Interesting analogy here! JKD guys are like 'The Borg'!

Absorb what is useful, destroy what is useless!

Andy

[YODA]

Hi Andy

I may be sticking my nose in too far here, but do you ever find yoursef teaching concepts from the formative period of JKD, that you know have been superceded by later discoveries from systems more recently assimilated!

Of course - because a method's effectiveness & usefullness can & does vary with the individual. I am vehemently against throwing anything out just because Sifu so-and-so says so. I will find my own truth, and that will no doubt not be his/your/anyone else's truth. I use quite a lot of stuff from Jun Fan that many modern JKD people have thrown out - and vica-versa :D

Interesting analogy here! JKD guys are like 'The Borg'!
Absorb what is useful, destroy what is useless!

No - not really. We (or we should) only throw out that which we personally cannot or do not wish to assimilate.

A big problem I see is that people are too quick to denounce something as "useless". Take Muay Thai for instance - great art with many strengths - and weaknessess too. You cannot appreciate or evaluate a system by attending a few seminars or just kicking with your shin & throwing an few knees. I trained at a Muay Thai gym for 5 years, graded up to instructor level, had a few fights, THEN I felt I was in a position to evaluate the art & absorb what I find usefull into MY JKD.

[Kendo_Cougar]

JKD.. Everyonel ikes JKD Because of Bruce lee.. he does JKD. So i think almost everyone wants to take over Bruce lle to a new Bruce lee. :yeleyes:

[YODA]

Hey barman - bring me a pint of what Kendo_Cougar is drinking. Must be reet good stuff!

LOL!

[Andy Murray]

This question mainly to Yoda, but also to anyone who has something of value to contribute;

What role would Bruce Lee be playing in the MA now, were he still around ?

[YODA]

Hi Andy

I don't think Bruce Lee would be involved in the martila arts now if he were alive. I think he saw ut as a vehicle for his growth & would have outgrown it.

His famous letter to himself "My definate cheif aim" makles not mention of martial arts - just a movie career & earning wads of money.

[Darzeka]

Just back to the no ways vs. all ways point.

These are both absolutes that lead to the same point by going opposite directions.

Picture Martial Arts as a journey (as said by many people ). Now when you pick a martial art to learn this is a road from wher you are to the horizon (your final destination of physical, mental and spiritual harmony resulting in something resembling the ultimate MA. ). If you then learn a different MA is this a new road or a widening of the old one?
Probably both depending on the differences on the two arts (and is also the comparison in no way and all ways). If you were immortal it would be possible to continue learning until the road was so wide it was a complete circle around you, stretching to the horizon in all directions (no way) or that you could have created so many new roads that they all joined together to create one whole road that streches to the horizon in all directions (all ways).

Both of these statements - no way and all ways will result in the same thing and also bring you to final destination - where you started - only through different means. As these statements are both absolutes of the same value then they cannot be compared nor contradicting.

If anyone recongnises a similarity between this thought and Raymond Feist's character Pug's self discovery of his magic potential in the riftwar saga it is because it was the basis for my theory's birth.

[HKD]

i have never heard of Bruce Lee training kenpo with ed parker.
HKD

[pgm316]

There is some contradiction between the philosophy

"Using no way as the way : Using no limitation as limitation"

"Using all ways : bound by none"

and the fact that it was based on a few core styles, e.g.;

Jun Fan Gung Fu
Filipino Martial Arts
Muay Thai
Silat
Groundfighting (BJJ / Shoot)

I don’t know much about JKD, just trying get my head around it. But, could a club take karate, judo, kendo etc and using the same philosophy and call it JKD?? I’m sure not!?

I agree with your quote Yoda “I think the vast majority of "classical" arts have progressed in their outlook - even if they won't admit it” I think this is very true, they had to, to stay effective. I train in Kung Fu, a few styles but mainly Wing Chun. Many aspects have progressed from the traditional style and we’ve incorporated, kickboxing, eskrima & groundfighting. In many ways I feel where heading in the JKD direction.

So maybe what I’m asking is what do you need to do to qualify as being a JKD club?
:confused:

[YODA]

It all depends on how you see the 1st quote...

"Using no way as the way"

or...

"Using no way as the way"

Also, when you say "It WAS based on blah blah" you are straight away into a historical look into what "was". JKD is about what "is".

Bruce Lee did not incorporate...

Filipino Martial Arts
Muay Thai
BJJ/Shoot
Silat

...into his method. HIS method being Jun Fan Gung Fu - his PROCESS being JKD.

what do you need to do to qualify as being a JKD club?

I feel you need a traceable lineage to Bruce Lee. Not that the combination of arts you mentioned is bad - but why try to hang a "Bruce Lee link" on it if it is not there - marketing? Money? Because Bruce Lee sells?

If you create something then take credit for it and let it live or die on it's own merits - don't use the name of a man who died nearly 30 years ago to justify your own genius :D

[pesilat]

There is some contradiction between the philosophy

"Using no way as the way : Using no limitation as limitation"

"Using all ways : bound by none"

Actually, these are the same thing ... just different ways of phrasing the same concept.


and the fact that it was based on a few core styles, e.g.;

Jun Fan Gung Fu
Filipino Martial Arts
Muay Thai
Silat
Groundfighting (BJJ / Shoot)


Eh?

I'm not sure what state BJJ was in in the '60s ... but I don't think Bruce ever had any exposure to it. And Shoot didn't exist until the 80s. Bruce certainly had some exposure to FMA, Muay Thai, and Silat ... but his art (Jun Fan) wasn't based on any of them.

The sources that I usually hear with regards to the foundation of Jun Fan are Wing Chun, Fencing, and Boxing. I know he also drew some from Savate and other arts ... but I don't know what they were (not being a JKD guy, this knowledge isn't my forte ... what I know about it, I've learned from peripheral exposure to Jun Fan/JKD and its proponents).

So maybe what I’m asking is what do you need to do to qualify as being a JKD club?
:confused:

I believe that a link to BL is necessary and a working knowledge of Jun Fan ... in fact, I'd even say that one should have Jun Fan as his/her core/foundation ... but they should definitely have a firm knowledge of JF/JKD (in my opinion).

I think without lineage and JF/JKD then using BL's name or the name of JF/JKD is false advertising.

Having a poster of BL or something in the school (out of respect for the man) is one thing. Claiming to be a JF/JKD instructor or using the name to bring in more students (which is the only reason I can see for claiming JF/JKD without lineage or the system) is a whole different ball of wax.

That's my 2 cents, anyway.

Mike

[waya]

Boxing was definitely a major part of the development of JKD. Bruce Lee worked with Muhammad Ali alot on developing punching techniques and power, as well as understanding the concepts behind boxing.

The Footwork in JKD is modified French Fencing footwork. This is where JKD gets the mobility and speed from. The movements actually generate alot of power behind strikes in a fluid motion and high rate of speed.

[YODA]

Let me tweak that just a little WAYA...

As far as I know Bruce Lee never worked out with Ali. He used to watch his fight on tape - in a mirror to see it right lead - but I'm 99.9% sure they never worked out. I doubt they met.

SOME of the footwork in Jun Fan Gung Fu does come from Fencing - but Fencing won't teach you how to side step or pivot very well. The linear step & slide, push shuffle, burnin steop etc do come from Fencing but are heaviliy modified (raised rear heel, angle of the feet etc).

[pgm316]

Mike you've misunderstood what I was trying to say. I know the phrases have the same meaning. The contradiction was between the phrases and the way that JKD is based on core elements. I was just quoting Yoda with his core elements, not trying to say what JKD was based on during the 60's. And trying to say in theory would it possible to base JKD on Karate, Judo etc. because by reading Bruce Lee's philosophy that would seem possible!?

I train in Kung Fu, its mainly Wing Chun, but lots of other things thrown in to make the classical wing chun a lot more effective and realistic for use today. Not that we want to advertise a Bruce Lee - JKD school, I think more credit is owed to our founder teachers. But, a lot of people have used Bruce Lee's philosophy's, I know this doesn't give them any right to pretend to be a JKD school, but should some credit be given to the work he did?

[YODA]

Originally posted by pgm316
I know this doesn't give them any right to pretend to be a JKD school, but should some credit be given to the work he did?

If you want to credit Bruce Lee then something like "A modern version of Wing Chun, modified using the ideas & philosophy of Bruce Lee" would be fine. Although credit is a good thing to give - I don't see why a modern engineer who comes up with a new way to wire a light bulb should need to credit Eddison.

When you look a little deeper into it - people who are influenced by his "philosophy" but who's art bears NO resemblance to what he actually physically taught, are using things he took from elsewhere - not things he actually formulated ot did. If your "influence" comes from things such as the quotes used above rather than by using his actual training structure & methods - then you'd be better off quoting Krishnamurti or Sun Tzu as your influence than Bruce Lee. *That doesn't bring in students the way Bruce Lee's name does though.



It's a question of motives, and in my experience the motive for citing Bruce Lee is usually a financial one.

*I'm not having a go at you or your art here. Just expressing a wider view based on what I've experienced. You motives may well be different.

[pgm316]

I promise not to open a JKD school! ;)

I'm only really interested in getting better, which I feel involves moving away from some of the classical kung fu styles. And I think JKD philosophies appear to be a good guidline.

I've learnt boxing, kickboxing, jujitsu, judo and even a bit of karate in parts. Suppose I'm just following my own path, feels like its going around in circles at times.

You've got to admit its tempting for people to advertise as a JKD school, 30 years after his death he's still one of the most famous people to have ever lived. I wonder what he'd make of it all now.

[waya]

Yoda,
Thanks for the clarification, I'm a bit new to JKD so I am still in the learning what is what stage.

I should have clarified that I was referring to the forward and backward footwork JKD uses.
I forgot where I read that he and Ali met, but it could very well be mistaken (such is the life of learning lol).

Rob

[pgm316]

I don't know if they met or not. But I read Ali was a one of Bruce's hero's. Apparantly Bruce bought a lot of films of Ali's boxing matches which he studied to learn about footwork. It said he even watched it through a mirrow so they both had right foot forward.

I read a quote were Bruce said he'd love to teach Ali how to kick, then he would have been one hell of a fighter!

[johndoch]

anyone can teach jeet kune do as there is no such thing as JKD only the artist and his art.

[pesilat]

I've read all of Funakoshi's writings and he's been a major influence on me. I feel that I really understand what he was saying and what he intended. I've trained in Tai Chi and was a Golden Glove boxer.

I think I'll start teaching martial arts and I'll call it "Karate" because I have so much respect for Funakoshi ... and, like I said, I've read all his stuff and it's had a major influence on me and it's really a concept anyway, not a specific system.

================ (the above is purely satirical)

Does that make any sense? I don't think so but that, in effect, is what people are doing when they call what they do "Jeet Kune Do" but have no foundation in Jun Fan or lineage to Bruce.

At least, that's my opinion.

Mike

[YODA]

Originally posted by pesilat

Does that make any sense? I don't think so but that, in effect, is what people are doing when they call what they do "Jeet Kune Do" but have no foundation in Jun Fan or lineage to Bruce.

At least, that's my opinion.

Mike


Yes - agreed 100%

[johndoch]

did bruce lee say that you should not be bound by style or system? So why is it that when people teach jeet kune do they emphasize the filipino or jun fan when really any training in the art that works for you is at the essence of jeet kune do.

Jeet Kune Do its just a name imho

[pesilat]

Originally posted by johndoch
did bruce lee say that you should not be bound by style or system? So why is it that when people teach jeet kune do they emphasize the filipino or jun fan when really any training in the art that works for you is at the essence of jeet kune do.

Jeet Kune Do its just a name imho

JKD *is* just a name. So is Shotokan.

But why would anyone who doesn't teach Jun Fan and have lineage to Bruce want to claim JKD? The only reason I can think of is to play on the marketability of Bruce's name and the JKD name. Everyone's JKD will be different.

In a way, we *all* do JKD ... in that we each seek our own path ... which is the essence of JKD.

But it's also the essence of every martial art out there. JKD just expresses that concept better than some other arts.

I just don't understand why (aside from marketing) anyone would *want* to use the name JKD if they don't have lineage to Bruce.

And marketing, in my opinion, isn't a good reason.

So ... maybe you can give me another reason I haven't thought of. I'm open-minded ... but I've never been presented with a good reason for doing this. If you have one, let me know.

If someone claims to be teaching JKD, then I (and, I would think that most) would assume they have lineage to Bruce. In my opinion, if they don't, then they're, at best, unintentionally misleading people and, at worst, they're using false advertising.

It'd be no different than me claiming to teach Karate if I have no lineage to a Karate system.

Mike

[pgm316]

I didn’t realize how much you guys hated people opening JKD schools that really aren’t qualified to do so, does this happen a lot!?

I did ask the question of what it takes to be called a JKD school, only out of curiosity (or playing devils advocate), because I was confused with everything I’d read. Its easy with other styles, you learn it then you teach it. It didn’t seem that straight forward with JKD, it seemed to be based on this and that, then have these principles which threw everything up in the air! Quotes from Bruce Lee which say “Style of no style” and then how he regretted naming it. I would have agreed with Johndoch’s comment but I’ve read some more. And my totally unqualified opinion on the matter is;

I would call JKD an art rather than a style, because art is a very personal expression. At least thats my opinion. But, JKD can’t be just any mess you make up. JKD is still based on certain principles techniques which can only be learnt from a qualified instructor, learn the basics and find the ones that work for you. Then train them and start to make it your own. There are infinite ways to make JKD your own while following common sense ideas like the theory of facing, centre line, footwork or economy of motion. I think its possible to incorporate other systems into JKD if you believe it adds to your fighting style unless it contradicts these principles.

What Bruce Lee was against was being a clone of your instructor, this would be the classical mess, but not learning anything because it would interfere with your artistic interpretation is another kind of mess altogether.

[YODA]

JKD an art? ---- Nope.

JKD a style? ---- Nope.

Jun Fan Gung Fu is both.

JKD is a process. An individual process. A process using his philosophy and using his physical art (Jun Fan Gung Fu) as a starting point, a "hub to the wheel" .

LOL! Chew on that one a while :D

[pesilat]

Ooh ... succinct.

Well put, Yoda. I tend to be a bit verbose at times :)

Mike

[pgm316]

lol i shall chew for a while

so the techniques are jun fan and the principles JKD.....

thanks Yoda

[johndoch]

hi

Yoda you say that JKD is the process of using bruce lee's philosophy and physical art with Jun Fan Gung Fu at the centre of the hub. I agree with what you say but imho if Bruce Lee was training someone in JKD he would concentrate on what worked for the student. I believe he would still teach Jun fan kung fu (g) in order to give the student an understanding of the techniques but would still maintain that the student still searches for what works for the individual.

In essence the hub of JKD may become boxing, or any other MA but that does not make it any less JKD.

I also think that the greed thats associated with the marketing of Bruces name is a slander to one of this centuries greatest cultural ambassadors and the whole idea of people claiming lineage is pretty sad. Surely the idea of JKD is to become an individual artist with your own ideas and respect other artists that are on their own paths.

[big e]

ooooohhh
my head hurts!

[YODA]

Originally posted by big e
ooooohhh
my head hurts!

No- CRAIG'S head hurts :D

Sorry folks "In" joke :D

[big e]

have u sin him since
the - incident ? ? ?

[YODA]

Yeah - he trained last night.

He's alive & training hard for his revenge - Muhahahhaaaaaaaa........

[big e]

is the darketh side
in him?

[Bruce Lee]

So what you guys are saying is that JkD is like another name for Jun Fan Kung fu but taught in a different way right?I'm a little bit confused and I'm not sure after reading those post giving me a headache.

[YODA]

wrong.

JFGF = The physical art he taught

JKD = The PROCESS of self discovery & personal expression using his concepts & philosopy. A process that involves using JFGF as ONE of the areas of exploration.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by YODA
wrong.

JFGF = The physical art he taught

JKD = The PROCESS of self discovery & personal expression using his concepts & philosopy. A process that involves using JFGF as ONE of the areas of exploration.

You must be real sick of explaining JKD/JFGF. Its like explaining the off side to someone thats never watched football! :D

I think JKD is a lot like making love to a beautiful woman!

[Cain]

I think JKD is a lot like making love to a beautiful woman!

I am off to find a class :D

|Cain|

[Bruce Lee]

Yoda

Thanks for answering my question.
Now I'm not that confused anymore.

[dredleviathan]

I'm not really surpirsed that there is so much confusion surrounding JKD / JFGF. Most of what any of us can read about JKD is cobbled together from notes that Bruce Lee made himself and had in no way ordered or systematically put together before his untimely death. If indeed he ever intended to...

These notes are then added to by the memories, notes and personal expereinces of BL's students. Those who were students then become teachers, new students add new experiences and thoughts/interpretations and you end up in the mess there is today...

I train in a JKD school with two full instructors under Dan Inosanto (Bob Breen and Terry Barnet). There are also numerous other instructors at various other levels... I often wonder if they are really teaching the same stuff. After much confusion and head scratching I think I'm beginning to see that the principles are the same even if the actions don't look the same.

Once in a while I try to get my head around JKD or try to order my notes on JFGF and it usually ends in a pile of paper, a miggraine and a loss of training time. Each time I end in this mess I swear to stop worrying about the semantics and to get on with the training... if only I would listen to myself!

As for the discussion about whether a core curriculum breaks the principles of JKD... well I just don't see the big problem. You need a structure from which to begin your experimentation otherwise you just end up with a collection of random techniques. Nobody has ever said that JKD is just about collecting techniques from various styles in the hope that you finally find the right blend for yourself. If you take physics as an analogy you wouldn't for instance start a student off with quantum theory without first giving them a basis for understadning it would you?

Like it or not the minute that BL came up with JKD tag he started to define a particular way of training. Once you name a concept you start to add definition to it... I'm trying desperately to remember my undergrad psychology here but I seem to remember something about how children learn at such an accelerated rate when they are young. Something to do with the gradual definition of concepts until the label takes over from the concept. The example I remember is how kids learn a name such as "dog" and apply it to a bunch of inappropriate animals because they fit their ill-defined concept of what a dog is (i.e. furry with four legs). Through a process of experimentation the child adds to its concept of a dog and then is clearly abel to deifine it as being very different from say a cat. At this point the label comes to define the concept. When an adult uses the word "dog" he no longer has to run through the list of attributes that make up the concept of a dog the label is sufficient.

[dredleviathan]

I was also just wondering what you guys think about the term "traditional" when applied to martial arts? I get the same feeling when I hear JKD, traditional or street for instance. The feeling that someone is trying to distance themselves from all the other people training in a similar style and make themselves a bit special...

I don't know. If you train in traditional Wing Chun then fair enough there is a curriculum to learn and then no doubt your reach a stage at which you start to mold your own ideas. However if your learn a traditional Wing Chun but supplement it with some escrima, a bit of BJJ etc etc is the net result at the end still that you are a student of traditional Wing Chun? Surely (assuming that you learn somethign from the additional training) what you end up with is WC+?

I'm sure I had a point but it escapes me... oh well.

[Bruce Lee]

Jeet Kune Do is a martial arts in one of his intrerviews Bruce Lee said that Jeet Kune Do is a martial arts.Then how come you guys say that it is a process?Why is it also listed in the styles section?For some reason I say it is a martial arts.In his last movie game of death the back cover says that Bruce lee created his own martial arts with minumum movement and ..........something else.
So I think Jeet Kune Do is a type of Martial arts fore now.Besides it seems like wing chun is like Jeet kune do in a different way.I know you guys probaly dont agree with me though but this is my opionion.

[pesilat]

So I think Jeet Kune Do is a type of Martial arts fore now.Besides it seems like wing chun is like Jeet kune do in a different way.I know you guys probaly dont agree with me though but this is my opionion.

Not being a JF/JKD man, myself, I'll leave the detailed responses to some of the others.

But I would like to quickly make this point, Bruce.

You're more than welcome to your opinion. But think about this for a second. You have no formal training in any martial arts.

You're arguing with people who've been training in the martial arts for a long time (don't know specific tenures, but I know at least a few of the people around here, including me, have been at MA for over 20 years). And some of them (not me) have been doing JF/JKD for a long time as well.

Now, none of us would ever seriously claim to have all the answers. We're just as human and fallible as the next guy. But it won't do you any good to dismiss the responses you get here out of hand based on your peripheral and rudimentary knowledge.

You've read a few books and (I assume) done some training on your own. On this forum, often, you're conversing with people who've done in-depth research with books, magazines, and video, as well as one-on-one time with people who actually trained with Bruce Lee. On top of which, they've been actively studying and training with qualified people for years.

I'm not saying that your opinion is invalid, but before you dismiss the opinions you're getting here, you might want to set your opinions and prejudices aside and really pay attention to the feedback you're getting.

Mike

[Bruce Lee]

I'm not arguing but that was just my opionion for NOW.