Still the best? ...

[Diego_Vega]

The following is a story I saw in today's edition of our country's most respected and influential newspaper, the Philippine Inquirer. Many Filipino martial artists still believe that we're the best when it comes to our indigenous martial arts.
They sit back smug and self-satisfied and snear at how foreigners train. Well, if you've travelled and seen what the rest of the world can do with our art, it would definitely be an eye-opener for us to get serious about our training, our training methodology and appreciate what we might be losing. Heaven forbid if we wind up like the British who taught the world to play soccer (football), rugby and cricket only to have their former colonies and neighbours beat them handily year after year after year. (Okay, the last World Rugby Championships were an exception.)
Granted this was "only" a sporting WEKAF style format and doesn't represent the the whole of FMA. But who's to say the results wouldn't have been any different under ARPI, Dog Brothers or any other rules anyone could come up with. For anyone more familiar with the WEKAF style and its history, has the Philippines ever done well in the sparring competition or do we only win in forms?

Powerful US arnis
squad upstages RP
Posted: 1:24 AM (Manila Time) | Jun. 25, 2004
Inquirer News Service
CEBU CITY -- Filipino arnis artists captured six gold medals in the form events but the powerful American contingent dominated the opening competitions yesterday of the eighth World Kali Arnis Eskrima Federation Championships at the SM City-Cebu Entertainment Plaza.
The Americans, displaying superiority in the routines, seized 10 gold medals to show the way in the overall race.

David Chan, a student of Maria Ernestine Montessori, bagged the Philippines' first gold by ruling the children's singles category (10-11 years old).
Roy Robin Chan, David's older brother, delivered the second gold, beating compatriot Ronald Santos in the boys' open multiple category, where the participant may use either a stick, dagger, sword or a combination of the three.
Jelin Tabayayong copped the gold in the open singles junior (16-17), Romeo Santos ruled the traditional men's masters (50 and above), Yvonne Trigila topped the women's traditional singles seniors (18-39), and Scott Slezak, a Hawaiian residing in Dumanjug, Cebu, beat all-comers in the traditional single men's category to round out the Philippines' gold-medal haul.
Trigila showed grace and better form to beat Americans Hanyann Ng and Cheryl Arcigal.
Filipino-American Allysa Patalinghug led the big US charge by topping the open junior girls class in a close contest over teammate Isabelle Andrade.
The other American gold medal winners were Joelle Zigman (traditional girls), Austin Hill Kleepie (traditional junior), Connie Fidel (traditional women's senior), Matthew Winkler (multiple traditional boys), Wendy Wigger (multiple traditional women), Christian Corrales (open junior boys), Emmanuel Patalinghug (open multiple boys), Matthew Cerbas (multiple junior boys) and Gabriel Patalinghug (traditional boys)

[shootodog]

how can we be the best when our schools churn out taekwandistas and karatistas? brother teacher, let's face, it fma is big everywhere else but home.

[juramentado]

I'm not surprised. Foreigners admire FMA more than most Filipinos so expect them to also end up becoming quite good at it, even better than Filipinos. Face it guys, FMA is way below the radar as far as Filipinos are concerned. They will rather study other MAs, or play basketball or badminton, rather than do their part in preserving their heritage.

There's a movie on Arnis that's part of the upcoming Manila Film Festival. It stars the brother of Topher Ricketts, one of the pillars of Bakbakan and Kali Ilustrisimo. So maybe, just maybe, FMA as a whole can get some media mileage from this.

[DeeTee]

"Heaven forbid if we wind up like the British who taught the world to play soccer (football), rugby and cricket only to have their former colonies and neighbours beat them handily year after year after year."

Ooooh that hurts! Man, if you were in a tournament you'd be disqualilfied for a low blow.

[danceofdeath]

how can we be the best when our schools churn out taekwandistas and karatistas? brother teacher, let's face, it fma is big everywhere else but home.

true, true.

[dori_kin_86]

I think the Filipino masters are trying to get people to be proud of the Filipino MAs. I don't know why so many in the Philippines, do foreign MA. I think Filipino MA are very effective. The Philippines have changed according to my Grandma, who was born and raised in Pompango (I might have misspelled it), from the Taruc family. I think western mentallities are spreading fast, and most people I think have false beliefs about local MA, like once you lose the stick, you cant fight.

[ptkali778]

juramentado....what's the movie called? is it by ronnie rickets? i will have to watch for it and rent at our local filipino store here ...the last arnis movie that i've seen is kamagong by lito lapid......
anyways im not surprise that fma doesnt have the same recognition and respect it deserves as other MA, cause other filipino's dont even know bout its existence. I've asked filipino's who are older than me and to think that they know or even heard of fma, sad to say they dont. How can we progress when our own people doesnt even know about it? but i support Fma all the way, and maybe one day help preserve and promote it....mabuhay ang fma (hail fma)

[david f]

The movie is called "Mano Mano 3" and it stars Ronnie Ricketts and his nephew, Bruce Ricketts. For those who may not know, Bruce Ricketts is the son of Master Christopher "Topher" Ricketts who is the head of Bakbakan.

Tuesday niight was the premier and it was a great event. Master Ricketts invited my teacher Roland Dantes, Vicente Sanchez, Rodel dagooc, Pepido Robas,myself and many other close friends and martial artists to the premier.

Great film and they deserve credit for trying to help expose FMA in the film. Bruce Ricketts is a great martial artist and is trained in kali ilustrisimo, boxing/kickboxing, bjj and kung fu and he has been training since he was aIknee high to a grasshopper. When I first met him in 1998, he was already impressing people with his skills and he would have only been 6/7 years of age.I am sure there will be big things from him in the future.

[johndoch]

So if I were go into a head to head arnis fight what would be the general rules?

what is arnis what is the translation?

[narra]

Lack of support from the Goverment and schools are two major reasons why FMA is dying in the Phils. Maybe the foreigners are getting better at it than us pinoys, but you can never be sure. Being good in tournaments does not mean they are also good in combat and knife fighting, you can never be sure. It is not a guarantee.

We have all the resources here, the problem is most pinoys don't train that hard to imporve their skills or go from one style to anothrer to imrove their knowledge.

[shootodog]

So if I were go into a head to head arnis fight what would be the general rules?

what is arnis what is the translation?

there are so many different rules. at one end of the spectrum there ie wekaf rules, where the fighters are heavily padded and they have a go at it and points are scored by the number of blows you've landed. there is the other end of the spectrum called "laro" (translates roughly to "play"), the rules are simple, two guys, single or double sticks, no protection. if you let go of the stick(s) you lose, if you're knocked out, you lose. if you die, you lose. you can surrender too (for a broken arm/ leg/ skull and cannot continue), but you'd lose too.

arnis, some say comes from the proper term arnis de mano. some claim that this comes from the spanish arnes de mano or harness of the hands. in theory, the movements of the weapons translates to the movements of it's equivalent empty hands (whith some adjustments here and there of course). the art in general is traditionally taught the reverse way that other arts are taught: weapons first, empty hands last. why? because learning weapons skills that could be used in combat immediately was a necessity in the olden times.

[Diego_Vega]

RP's Chan bags second
old in world arnis tilt
Posted: 11:19 PM (Manila Time) | Jun. 25, 2004
Inquirer News Service
CEBU CITY-Ray Ruben Chan became the first double-gold medalist in the eighth World Eskrima Kali Arnis Federation (Wekaf) world championships when he beat fellow Filipino Junrey Seno in the boys' heavyweight 10-11 age group final Friday at the SM City Cebu Trade Hall.
The Philippines, after a six-gold opening day haul, upped its tally to seven gold medals on a day when the the United States hoarded six golds to raise its total to 16.

Chan, a grade six protege of coach Remegio Barandoy, bagged the gold in the boys' open multiple category in Thursday's form competition.
He trains at the Doce Pares International, which is hosting the tournament in cooperation with the Cebu Visitors and Convention Bureau, the Cebu City Government, Casino Filipino-Pagcor Sports-Cebu, Nature's Spring, Cebu Pacific, and USA-made Calmoseptine Ointment.
In other results, Matt Alinaya defeated RP's Cesario Perez for the gold in the juniors' lightweight, JD Tabayayong went unopposed in the lightweight 10-11 boys' division, while Kerry Sheader outplayed fellow American Tony De Rooy to top the junior boys heavyweight (14-15) division.
Carlos Patalinghug dominated the heavyweight boys (12-13) and Joshua Teves copped the junior boys' (16-17) title.
Most of the girl stick-fighters from the US won unopposed: Joelle Zigman in the girls' heavyweight (12-13); Rosalie Garcia in the girls' heavyweight (16-17); Allysa Patalinghug in the girls' lightweight (10-11); and Isabelle Andrade, girls heavyweight (10-11).
Sim Martin of Britain grabbed the children's 10-under gold medal.
The Americans, displaying superiority in the routines, also dominated the first day with 10 golds in the form events.

[Diego_Vega]

"Heaven forbid if we wind up like the British who taught the world to play soccer (football), rugby and cricket only to have their former colonies and neighbours beat them handily year after year after year."

Ooooh that hurts! Man, if you were in a tournament you'd be disqualilfied for a low blow.

Oops, no offfence intended towards our bro's from the U.K. The Brits also taught the world the concept of sportsmanship and we're all better because of it. Their arnis is pretty darn good too.

[danceofdeath]

Lack of support from the Goverment and schools are two major reasons why FMA is dying in the Phils. Maybe the foreigners are getting better at it than us pinoys, but you can never be sure. Being good in tournaments does not mean they are also good in combat and knife fighting, you can never be sure. It is not a guarantee.

We have all the resources here, the problem is most pinoys don't train that hard to imporve their skills or go from one style to anothrer to imrove their knowledge.

yeah. im a filipino but i think that the greater population of the martial artists (includin those non martialarts people) country are weak. they dont have the humility, they dont have the discipline, they are too lazy and lastly, they dont have the will and the heart to do something and finish it perfectly. sad to say but this is true. as a result almost all of our MA's are slowly dying. hard to imagine that other than some dedicated filipinos, foreigners are one of some reasons why some FMA's are still alive.. sigh.

[johndoch]

Cheers Shootodog :D

[Diego_Vega]

Arnis bets 2nd with 17 golds
Posted: 3:04 AM (Manila Time) | Jun. 28, 2004
Inquirer News Service
CEBU CITY -- The Philippines added 11 more golds to its medal vault, but that was far behind the 30 victories scored by the United States Saturday on the penultimate day of the 8th World Eskrima Kali Arnis Federation (Wekaf) Championships held at the Doce Pares International headquarters in Sto. Niño Village, Banilad, Cebu City.
The 100-strong US contingent bagged their second overall championship in the biennial event organized by lawyer Dionisio Cañete, Wefar chair emeritus, and hosted by the Doce Pares in cooperation with the Cebu Visitors and Convention Bureau (CVCB), the Cebu City Government, Casino Filipino-Pagcor Sports-Cebu, Nature's Spring, RCTV, Cebu Pacific and USA-made Calmoseptine Ointment.

The US stickfighters added 10 gold, nine silver, and four bronze medals Saturday for a total tally of 30-17-7. The Filipinos were a far second with a 17-15-5 haul.
Scoring golds for the Philippines were welterweight Lolito Pacubillo, featherweight Fernando Parcon, and lightweight Rolando Maraña in the men's senior division of the single stick sparring competition.
Maria Therese Borces also triumphed, beating Holland's Yvonne Hoogendorn in the women's flyweight finals, while Bernie Inot outsmarted Christian Weber of Switzerland in men's action.
Juan Furiscal prevailed in the men's bantamweight, edging out countryman Percival Vellino, even as Jim Clyde Garciano, Reynaldo Kumbati, James Clark Barte, and Ruel Carvellida topped their respective classes.
Garciano overpowered Ruben Martinez for the men's superbantamweight gold, Kumbati triumphed over American Dale de los Reyes in the super featherweight class, Barte shone in the featherweight division with a win over American Deen Mandapat, while Carvellida bested Dave Sales of the US for the welterweight gold.
Barte actually scored a double as he also subdued Ronnie Villeno in the double stick contest featherweight division.
Switzerland finished third overall with an 8-3-3 harvest, followed by England with two golds and Italy with one gold.

[shootodog]

i noticed that filipinos did better in sparring than in forms. [scratches head]

[narra]

Bruce's moves looks good, he's still young and if he continues to practice hard will be even better. Ronnie is also ok, but from what I've heard he's more of a bare hands fighting person. Bruce's and the the moves used there are predominantly Illustrisimo, if you will notice the redonda style and the single hand drills.

Bakabakan is mostly Illustrisimo they say, though they also adopted some LAMECO techniques. I hope to see more of this kind of movies, and sana more fight scenes. I hope they fight with real arnisadors, most of the extra's aren't as good as the main stars of the film, some don't know any arnis at all.

[Pat OMalley]

followed by England with two golds and Italy with one gold.

Oh Dear,
Don't worry Philippines, the Brits look like they are getting worse too. Only 2 Gold medals???, usually they bag more than 12, well never mind, the game changes all the time. And I should say nothing, havent been invloved in the WEKAF events since 2001.

Usually the PI wins the home events, and the US comes 2nd, mind you Britain came 2nd in 2000 pushing the US into 3rd (no offense people) and the US had a lrage team then and GB had 23, but payback is a bitch eh! :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo:

[shootodog]

we have a saying over here: panahon panahon lang yan! (literally translated: weather weather! it means, some days you're up, somedays you're not).

[ap Oweyn]

Huh. Allysa Patalinghug. Must be my first teacher's kid. (Guess I've been out of touch longer than I thought.)

Edit: Struth! He had the whole gang in that competition, by the looks of it.

[Pat OMalley]

Switzerland finished third overall with an 8-3-3 harvest, followed by England with two golds and Italy with one gold.
I just got off the phone this morning and have been reliably informed that Great Britain's (Sorry not England - GB is England Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland) medal tally was 9 gold and I think 7 silver and 5 Bronze.

My source is the father of a young 12 year old student of mine who has Dispraxia who won the Gold in the forms and cam 4th if the sparring competition.
Having partaken in the event in Cebu in the past I know full well that the newspapers over their can sometimes get their figures wrong as in 1998 when GB came 2nd with 13 Golds, the Philippines had 22 and US had 12, within 2 days the papers were saying that the Philippines bagged an astonishing 28 golds, GB had 6 and US had 18. Yes that was astonishing, especially to the GB team. So when I find out the real medal tally I will let you know.

Mabuhay

Pat O'Malley :Angel:

[Pat OMalley]

Huh. Allysa Patalinghug. Must be my first teacher's kid. (Guess I've been out of touch longer than I thought.)

Edit: Struth! He had the whole gang in that competition, by the looks of it.

The Patalinghug family is very big, I remember Judging Carlos Patalinghug Jnr way back in 1994 and he was teching and coaching some of the Kid's of the US team. And since then I seem to have come across more Patalinghug's at every world championships, they always do well. :)

[ap Oweyn]

The Patalinghug family is very big, I remember Judging Carlos Patalinghug Jnr way back in 1994 and he was teching and coaching some of the Kid's of the US team. And since then I seem to have come across more Patalinghug's at every world championships, they always do well. :)

I was a student of his in 1994, actually.

I haven't seen him in a couple of years. But when I visited the school then, he kept pointing to students and saying "he's mine, she's mine, he's mine... "

:)

[Pat OMalley]

I was a student of his in 1994, actually.

I haven't seen him in a couple of years. But when I visited the school then, he kept pointing to students and saying "he's mine, she's mine, he's mine... "

:)

I think you now know what he really means when he say's he's mine. A true Filipino, loves his kids, lots of them, bit like my Scottish / Irish family I have the 2nd on the way and who knows in a few years time I may too say the same.

If you see CP Jnr give him my regards as I had to miss this years World Champs.

Mabuhay

Pat O'Malley ;)

[ap Oweyn]

I think you now know what he really means when he say's he's mine. A true Filipino, loves his kids, lots of them, bit like my Scottish / Irish family I have the 2nd on the way and who knows in a few years time I may too say the same.

I certainly do. He's working on a whole gang over there. :)

The Patalinghugs are a great family, the whole lot of them.

If you see CP Jnr give him my regards as I had to miss this years World Champs.

I'll do that, yeah. I dropped him an email yesterday. I'll have to plan a trip up to Baltimore in the near future for a visit.

Mabuhay

Pat O'Malley ;)

Take care Pat!

Stuart

[Rich Parsons]

I'm not surprised. Foreigners admire FMA more than most Filipinos so expect them to also end up becoming quite good at it, even better than Filipinos. Face it guys, FMA is way below the radar as far as Filipinos are concerned. They will rather study other MAs, or play basketball or badminton, rather than do their part in preserving their heritage.

. . .

When I have mentioned I train in the FMA's to Filipino's some get upset, and deny that there a national art. Some are surprised that an American cares about the natural arts of the Phillipines, as most of the instructors had bad reps or taught out of back yards or extra rooms, and not schools like the CMA's or KMA's or JMA's so.

I have found it an issue here in the US, so I do not think it only in the PI.

Is there a cultural issues that looks down on the FMA's as beign too violent, or poor class, or ... ?

This is not an insult to anyone, just asking.

Thank You

[Roman_Rapido]

Hello Mr. Parsons,

I'm not surprised that some Filipinos deny that Arnis is a native art of the Philippines. I met some Filipinos and some Fil-Ams who said that Arnis is a Spanish Martial Art :eek: . I would like to ask you why were those Filipinos you've met were upset that you're taking FMA? I could guess, that it hit right smack on their disregard for their own culture and realizing that a foreigner is more knowledgable and more appreciative of their own culture. :cry:

Here in the Philippines, I think it is more of a class issue than a cultural issue as to why some Filipinos tend to look down on FMA here. Those that are from the rich and upper middle class don't usually take Arnis because it is baduy (tacky) since in their minds it is a "poor man's art". Who are the one's that take the FMA? The poor soldiers, the local tanods, students that are studying in public schools. What martial arts do these rich kids study, Tae Kwon Do, BJJ, and Kendo :eek: because in their minds, they are "cool". Besides, the true masters of Arnis don't have their own air-conditioned schools and teach in public parks and their backyards.

[Bayani]

I agree about it being a class issue but also see the changes as to who continues to train FMA. It no longer is limited to the poorer and middle class because those that do support it are also those that have had the opportunity to see FMA from a perspective abroad. Like we have mentioned many have heard of the proliferation and improved if not unique development of their own arts elsewhere but in their own homeland. The truth does hurt when you see foreigners who appreciate and even are far more developed in FMA because we ourselves don't support it thus loosing the opportunities to improve. It is a luxury to train Martial arts, other countries can do so 7 times a week and for several hours whereas here going to a class would require lot's of sacrifices and adjustments, In other countries they can affford to intermingle or compare systems and arts to further improve upon their skills (something almost impossible to do back in the Philippines).
Many times you will find it is the Balikbayans who search out these Masters who teach secretly or import these Masters to come abroad and teach FMA because they have seen how good their art is elsewhere and the Masters will come out if sponsored to be paid in $$ for what they know. Filipinos tend to be very giving and sharing if asked to demo their art to foreigners but secretive and will guard their stuff if teaching locally back home :confused: but these very foreigners taught will share with anyone willing to learn and may not care to be involved with all the politics about who's system is better when it comes to Martial Arts further improving upon their skills while we with the "Crab mentality" and colonial mentality further head the wrong way.

Possible solution? Nothing speaks louder than showing your skills, it's the best way to do your art justice, get good at FMA then share it, But GET GOOD AT IT the best way you can! Because what ever impresssion you leave behind may be judged on the quality of your developed skills. You become the ambasador of your art to those that have never seen FMA and may sway to try it when they see what you have to offer. Educate them. Then as Diego mentioned do your best to give back to those who taught you in whatever way you can.

[deCadena]

It's ok guys. Don't you like it that way fewer people can kill you? And when the time comes that you face this jacks without training you'll simply be smiling and saying to yourself. YOU'RE MINE. just kidding. :)

Anyhow, I have met a lot of people and the desire to learn MA here is pretty slim... There's no demand thus the supply isn't aggressive (though we have them).

[Bayani]

unfortunately, these Jacks or "jologs" do know how to use homemade weapons...doesn't take much to do damage with that plus the fact that they engage in frequent "rambols" and criminal elements they DO know how to use their weapons of choice be it simple but effective. the ever so present "anong gagawin mo kapag'..what would you do if...is constantly being played to develop skills to get their job done. Not a martial art but a fighting skill of the streets. I guess now that i think about it, fewer people can kill me with martial arts they probably have the discipline not to kil me) Many could kill me in the streets easily, In Pinas your skill does nt mean a thing in the streets, we just don't care...traidoran (dirty fighting) is the name of the game. It makes use of the element of surprise with weapons. Sorry to stray off topic :o
We should use the marketing strategies of the Canetes since they are able to draw so much support for their version of FMA. Be it wekaf rules or not more power to them , Hope we find similar solutions to support the other systems who have different approaches or ideas about FMA.

[Diego_Vega]

The WEKAF Championships were actually televised last Saturday on IBC (one of the smaller networks here in the Philippines.) I only caught the last hour, but from what I saw, they only showed the sparring, no forms. (Could be wrong on this.) Upon discovering it, I immediately texted all of my friends and students to watch it. They texted back asking how the winner was chosen because all they saw was two people whacking away at each other. Kudos to the Canetes for being able to get it on tv for national exposure. For me it had the same problem as when I watch URCC (Ultimate Reality Combat Championship - our version of Pride FC/UFC) on Solar Channel. In URCC, Alvin Aguilar, the promoter of the event, always comes up with intelligent insights on what is happening in the ring. Unfortunately, his broadcast partner QH comes up with the most innane comments making it obvious he knows nothing about mma. The commentators for the WEKAF event didn't do anything to enlighten me as to what was happening and why. One guy was supposed to be an arnisador, but he acted more like a roving reporter than a commentator. The commentator was out of his element completely. There was one match where the combatants whacked and hacked at each other for 2 rounds. Then they announced at an overtime would be needed. The commentator, in all seriousness, said "okay, overtime, first hit wins!" Luckily one of the Canetes sitting at the table said that there was actually a time limit for the overtime round.

A couple of interesting things. There were roughly 400 competitors, and 150 of those came from the U.S. team. Most of the competitors for the Philippines, in the sparring competition, tended to be soldiers.

[Pat OMalley]

A couple of interesting things. There were roughly 400 competitors, and 150 of those came from the U.S. team. Most of the competitors for the Philippines, in the sparring competition, tended to be soldiers.

Phew, nothing changes then, it has always been the same, in good luck to the Canete's they have always managed to get the even on TV and in the paper, even though that many comenting and writing have not got a clue on about what exactley they are talking about.
It is true, unless you know the format of the sparring competitions it is hard to follow.

Mabuhay

Pat O'Malley
Former 3 times WEKAF World Champion. :woo:

[ap Oweyn]

They texted back asking how the winner was chosen because all they saw was two people whacking away at each other.

It's the same scoring system as boxing. 10-10 is an even round. 10-9 someone dominated the round. 10-8 someone REALLY dominated the round. 10-7 someone forgot to show up.

[neokensei]

Just my two centavos on the topic:

Here in the Philippines, I think it is more of a class issue than a cultural issue as to why some Filipinos tend to look down on FMA here. Those that are from the rich and upper middle class don't usually take Arnis because it is baduy (tacky) since in their minds it is a "poor man's art". Who are the one's that take the FMA? The poor soldiers, the local tanods, students that are studying in public schools. What martial arts do these rich kids study, Tae Kwon Do, BJJ, and Kendo :eek: because in their minds, they are "cool". Besides, the true masters of Arnis don't have their own air-conditioned schools and teach in public parks and their backyards.

I tend to frown on generalizations as some of the above statement seems to be. Having practiced Kendo, not because it was "cool", but because I was exposed to certain philosophical works (and those who aren't serious, those who take the blunt of the generalization, tend not to last long when the practice gets hard); which I had first tried to implement in arnis (the first martial art I took seriously...Doce Pares in Southridge HS by a Mr. Bong Canete...I eventually left because Quezon City was too far from Muntinlupa, and I lost contact with my arnis teacher).
Furthermore, I don't think the venue of practice is not a good point of argument as far as indicating/determining a person's ability to teach. Although they would never refer to themselves as masters, my instructors in the Chinese martial arts have never had a venue of their own outside of their homes or a public park, would that, in any way, degrade or improve their ability to teach or perform their art?
Lastly, I have always also frowned at any attempts to place any margins/borders between 'classes'. I find such attempts to be divisive and, thus, not helpful. Perhaps I'm being too idealistic in thinking that the so-called poor, who strive hard and may or may not get what is their due, should work hand in hand with the so-called rich, who have greater responsibilities in helping their fellow men, having been blessed more... (or maybe its just been a long day and I'm just ranting at 3am...)

Regardless...lets not have generalizations (its a big no-no in debates!)...and Long Live ALL Martial Arts, whether they be Filipino, Korean, Japanese, Indian, Chinese, Indonesian, European, or wherever.

Peace,

J. :Angel:
-Kendo (prov. Ikkyu), Hsing-I, Tai Chi, Pa Kua (basic), Basic Wushu, Modern Cruzada Arnis, Doce Pares Escrima, (basic) Karate, (basic) Tae Kwon Do, Chinese weapons, pistol

[Roman_Rapido]

Just my two centavos on the topic:



I tend to frown on generalizations as some of the above statement seems to be. Having practiced Kendo, not because it was "cool", but because I was exposed to certain philosophical works (and those who aren't serious, those who take the blunt of the generalization, tend not to last long when the practice gets hard); which I had first tried to implement in arnis (the first martial art I took seriously...Doce Pares in Southridge HS by a Mr. Bong Canete...I eventually left because Quezon City was too far from Muntinlupa, and I lost contact with my arnis teacher).
Furthermore, I don't think the venue of practice is not a good point of argument as far as indicating/determining a person's ability to teach. Although they would never refer to themselves as masters, my instructors in the Chinese martial arts have never had a venue of their own outside of their homes or a public park, would that, in any way, degrade or improve their ability to teach or perform their art?
Lastly, I have always also frowned at any attempts to place any margins/borders between 'classes'. I find such attempts to be divisive and, thus, not helpful. Perhaps I'm being too idealistic in thinking that the so-called poor, who strive hard and may or may not get what is their due, should work hand in hand with the so-called rich, who have greater responsibilities in helping their fellow men, having been blessed more... (or maybe its just been a long day and I'm just ranting at 3am...)

Regardless...lets not have generalizations (its a big no-no in debates!)...and Long Live ALL Martial Arts, whether they be Filipino, Korean, Japanese, Indian, Chinese, Indonesian, European, or wherever.

Peace,

J. :Angel:
-Kendo (prov. Ikkyu), Hsing-I, Tai Chi, Pa Kua (basic), Basic Wushu, Modern Cruzada Arnis, Doce Pares Escrima, (basic) Karate, (basic) Tae Kwon Do, Chinese weapons, pistol


Hello Neokensei,

I agree on putting an effort to remove generalizations in the martial arts and I commend you on raising the issue on breaking the borders between classes (rich vs. poor). As much as I appreciate the idealism that you have shown, the issue still remains as why FMA is not as popular in the Philippines as compared to other foreign arts. I'm glad that you have reached a level of maturity and enlightenment in the approach of the martial arts, but a lot of other practioners might not be sharing the same attitude. More often than not, I have encountered incidents where fellow MA practitioners would bad-mouth FMA simply because it's Filipino. "Arnis? 'Wag yan galing sa pinas yan. Try Tae Kwon Do instead" (this is a direct quote by an acquaintance). It is not to say that all rich people look down on FMA, but I could tell you, a good number of them do say it. As for the poor, well they see FMA as what it is, a way to learn self-defence. Since they don't have much choice as to what MA they wanted to learn, FMA is the closest that they could afford. They don't have to buy the gi, belts, gloves, armor, mats etc. just come with your P25.00 stick. :)

The example I gave on the venue of practice is not to use it as a point of reference in determining a person's ability to teach, but I use it as an example of how wide the difference is in regards to the support and development that each martial art have been given. Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Aikido and Muai Thai have their strong organization, the benefit of their government that supports the practioners and big private companies to invest in the art. In Arnis, we don't have that. Those and many others are what contributed to the present state of FMA here.

[Bayani]

The example I gave on the venue of practice is not to use it as a point of reference in determining a person's ability to teach, but I use it as an example of how wide the difference is in regards to the support and development that each martial art have been given. Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Aikido and Muai Thai have their strong organization, the benefit of their government that supports the practioners and big private companies to invest in the art. In Arnis, we don't have that. Those and many others are what contributed to the present state of FMA here.....

Very good point,
Martial arts IS a luxury in the Philippines. We're being honest about WHY Fma is the way it is. Because of limited support, even some of the very teachers of the art are unable to DEVELOP the art to it's highest standards becasue of lack of funding and support. There are some but in a minority of us who are able to educate ourselves with different arts so as to be able to better understand our own and find better ways to train and teach the art so that it can keep up with the quality that is being developed else where.

Not that it is not there but you seriously have to look for it whereas abroad you can find it. More foreigners are aware or educated about FMA than Filipinos in the Philippines. What most Filipinos do know is quite limited plus the colonial mentality thereby making them go toward the more common Ma that you can find. but it's not that readily available for all to see. Those that are very good teach it abroad where because of their quality and skill have been asked to do seminars and are well paid for it. They few that do practice it have to do so when they can afford to find the time, train in A specific system rather than be able to cross train systems, have limited access to materials which will further improve their own skills (books, shared info like these forums, video cameras to watch themselves perform, scientific, safety equiptment so as not to constantly be injured to be able to train and experiements with realtime application vs a resisting partner) all these require some sort of funding.
Elsewhere abroad where MA is a full time buisness for some, they are able to get the above. BUT there is some support developing...FMA is slowly being inducted officially into the Military and Law enforcement...Pekiti Tirsia Kali leads the way in every BALIKATAN joint U.S. And Philippine Military training especially now with the reality of urban and Close quarter combat. It was once reserved for just the Special Forces like the Recon, SAF comandos, rangers and SWAG but now will become a basic part of the Philippine Marines training. All the TKD, KARATE, JUDO even our own kickboxing will slowly give way to what they feel is more applicable to what they have to do...weapons fighting. YY though still has a good following in the AFTAC group , hope it melds in nicely with the weapons and with Ardigma being formed looks like good things are coming. I am talking about official programs and not limited training regiments for certain people.
As time goes on and as long as it continues to be supported by able practitioners of the FMA (the Masters and their skilled followers) then Pinoys will be educated then hopefully a good demand for the art will fall into place.
The above statements may be taken as generalizations. Sorry if it appears to be so . I know of no other way to call a spade a spade...they are statements based on my experiences and affiliations. They are said to hopefully help promote and further the Filipino Fighting Arts among it's people (of course to everyone willing to study it). becasue as you can see...there IS a hurdle we need to overcome in the Philippines.

Mabuhay!

[Roman_Rapido]

When I learned that the Armed Forces of the Philippines has expanded the training of Pekiti Tersia not just for the Force Recon but to the entire Marine Corps I was very happy even if I'm not a PTK practitioner because at least now the government has recongnized the combat effectivity of FMA. But I'm also filled with dread because with the continuing increase in demand for FMA in the Armed Forces as well as Police and Civilian Militia, there could be a shortage of qualified FMA instructors. This was echoed by Tuhon Gaje because all of his top students are overseas. He has been working double time in training Filipino students (and Guro Rommel Tortal) that could teach PTK to the other branches of the AFP.

But apart from showing FMA as a combative art, we can also show that it is a good cardio excercise (for health buffs), a great cultural and artistic piece (for culture vultures and movie buffs) or a historical and sociological reference (for historians, social antropologist and other academics). All in all, there's more to FMA than meets the eye, all we have to do is be open to its posiblities and potential.......

[kayumanggi]

More foreigners are aware or educated about FMA than Filipinos in the Philippines. What most Filipinos do know is quite limited plus the colonial mentality thereby making them go toward the more common Ma that you can find. but it's not that readily available for all to see.

What people that are reading this thread should realize is that the general status of FMA in the Philippines is behind in regards to the number of Filipinos actively practicing the art, compared to the U.S. and Europe. But the problem really is what the general public learns, both internationally and in the P.I. is really generic, and therefore many foreigners are running in circles inventing what Filipino's think are superior techniques and training methodologies. This is false.

All of the Masters in the P.I. have closely guarded techniques and training methods that very few have been priveleged to see, and of those few individuals NONE are foolish enough to teach what they really know to the public, and that includes other Filipinos.

I guarantee you that what I have seen taught abroad pales in comparison to what I have seen taught privately in closed door sessions. And all of these techniques are directly from the P.I., and is not openly taught to even their highest ranking instructors.

IMHO this method of secrecy has been purposely set in place to make sure that the Philippine Masters are always the best in the world.

What happens in sporting events is not true combat, and the only way to find out who really has superior skills is in a true match without rules, and safety precautions, fought with real weaponry not rattan or padded sticks.

Mabuhay ang Arnis sa Pilipinas

[Mr.Gordo]

I guarantee you that what I have seen taught abroad pales in comparison to what I have seen taught privately in closed door sessions. And all of these techniques are directly from the P.I., and is not openly taught to even their highest ranking instructors.

IMHO this method of secrecy has been purposely set in place to make sure that the Philippine Masters are always the best in the world.


Gee, that's a new one. Haven't heard someone say the old "We Have Secret Techniques that We don't Show Anyone, Not Even Our Own Intructors" line in a while. Let me guess, they're so deadly they can't enter NHB events either. :rolleyes:


Mr. Gordo

[kayumanggi]

Gee, that's a new one. Haven't heard someone say the old "We Have Secret Techniques that We don't Show Anyone, Not Even Our Own Intructors" line in a while. Let me guess, they're so deadly they can't enter NHB events either. :rolleyes:


Mr. Gordo

Your sarcasm was so witty. I congratulate you, you certainly shut me up. ;)

As you probably have never trained in the Philippines, let alone privately with any Masters there, I will provide you with an example that everyone knows.

Angel Cabales had 40 plus instructors, and a dozen or so Masters of his art at the time of his passing. Only a handful, including his son Vincent, were shown the few remaining Serrada techniques, that he had been keeping from them, when he found out that he was terminally ill. His reasoning was similar to so many Grandmasters and Masters in the P.I.. He had kept these skills to himself so that he would always have the upper hand, should any of his instructor or Master level students turn on him someday. The only reason he passed these techniques on to a select few Masters that remained loyal to him until his passing was because he obviously had nothing to fear from them anymore.

I am pretty sure that these techniques are not taught in the general Serrada curriculum that is taught to the public, even instructors.

But you are so knowledgeable that you probably know these "secret techniques" that you do not believe exist.:rolleyes:

By the way I'm sure you know that the Dog brothers offered to join the UFC shortly after its debut and were denied because what they proposed was too extreme. And I don't recall anyone ever using FMA in NHB competition, but oh that's right, Eye gouges, finger locks, pressure point releases, skin grabbing, and strikes to most vital areas are forbidden.

But why are NHB competitions relevant to this thread anyway. Try walking down the street in Tondo, Manila past midnight with a couple of American dollars sticking out of your back pocket and try some "No holds barred" techniques against three or four guys with knives, bats, and projectiles. I bet you'd be looking around for a weapon you could use.

Silly rabbit, NHB tricks are for kids. :D

[Bayani]

Kabayan Kayumangi,
while it is true that there are Masters who do guard and reserve or hold back some things to themselves, FMA is not about techniques. It is a process or a methodology of training. At least the effective systems that I am familiar with teach you principles and methods that are combative. From weapons to emptyhands to weapons .That's why I like the methodolgy of our art. It's not a spoon feading method that teaches you technique by technique . It gives you pieces of the puzzle that you fill in so that you can come up with the picture yourself (techniques) and once you do, it's forever yours. That being said, let's not take away the intelligence of everyone else in the world. The fact is, FMA is taught by some Masters , those that are hardcore about it will figure out what may be held back by some Masters. You don't re invent the wheel, it's been done. You may see different versions of it but it's no secret. I teach FMA rather than safeguard of hold back I would rather make sure that those I teach do it properly and effectively to keep with the quality and effectiveness that is identified with the FMA. Holding back would only waterdown or pass on inferior quality and I would never do that to my art nor would it be right to do so to the practitioner who put their trust in you and afterall this is weapons and combative aspects of survival and to knowingly give false confidence in what they believe to be effective because you held back to me is immoral. I rather choose my students well and teach them or not teach them at all.

[kayumanggi]

Very well said. I agree with you on all points, and share your feelings about the degradation of the art due to the secrecy that some Masters practice. But while the methodology of the FMA is the most important aspect of the art, and certainly the reason why it is so adaptable to such a wide variety of situations. You cannot deny that there are some unorthodox techniques that defy the normal conventions in the FMA. These techniques are usually so deceptive that there is no possible counter or defense.

I have been practicing the art for 25 years now, and I can tell you with confidence that some techniques that I have seen are so unique that it is very unlikely that anyone, regardless of skill level or experience, will come by the same conclusions no matter how long they search.

The fact that these techniques may die out with the last of the Manongs is an unfortunate reality. They may be passed down, or they may not. But if they are inherited they will most definitely remain secret.

Thank you for your reply Kabayan.

To answer Diego Vega's question;
As long as the Manongs and the Masters who follow them are alive to share their secrets, The Philippines will always be the #1 source of knowledge in the Filipino Martial Arts.

[Bayani]

:) much better :) ( kayumangi check you pm)
yes I agree that there are stuff that Masters reserve just for themselves and that certain higher levels of practice leadng toward the spiritual and mystical are reserved for family or culture. As for unorthodox techniques , i think if you have been practicing the arts for years and years constantly challenging set dogma , comparing and evolving you may bump into the same realizations though. Many times in my training would I come up with some realizations that I am sure were made up on the spot and dicovered by myself only to find that it was easily found in the variations of drills, techniques or practice of the art. In Pekiti Tirsia Kali Tuhon Gaje reffers to this as the "thought provoking process" to be able to know your strengths and most importantly realize your weaknesses and find ways to counter them. Offense-counter offense-re counter offense.

[kayumanggi]

i think if you have been practicing the arts for years and years constantly challenging set dogma , comparing and evolving you may bump into the same realizations though. Many times in my training would I come up with some realizations that I am sure were made up on the spot and dicovered by myself only to find that it was easily found in the variations of drills, techniques or practice of the art.

I have experienced this as well, and many times when I have been shown techniques (that I have been instructed to keep to myself) those techniques were very similar in concept, if not almost exactly the same, as personal revelations that I have had.

But there have been techniques that I have seen that aren't remotely similar to any techniques that I have seen before in any of the FMA that I have come across. But that's what makes these techniques so effective, and is the reason why they are so closely guarded in secrecy.

I will PM you back soon.

Salamat

[Bayani]

I can't seem to understand what exactly you mean by "secrets" . If these are techniques or moves then maybe it was just a matter of time or just something that is different.

The use of the term just carries with it too much deception or a negative feeling if it's openly expressed. What do you think it feeels like if you were told that you were never shown secret techniques? It kinda makes it as though what you know is not valid eh?

For example all of a sudden while training he does a scorpion kick like the yaw yan people but maybe something you don't normally do in your system? I'm just leary about the term secret. So much has been lost or so much debates have started because some masters claim that they never showed the secret techniques...a claim usally made out of spite towards a former student. Then you would have feuds amongst the system. Something that doesn't really serve anyone well. There are things that are held back or secrets but to me it's not a certain move or technique but rather principles and theories that help you undersatnd the system, the keys that unlock mechanics of the body or how to do things or figure out things. These are secrets worth striving for. Not techniques or unorthodox moves because it would just be...a move I have not seen? I don't quite know how to say it...hmmm Not using sarcasm but if I may illlustrate this in a story. Say your instructor after decades shows you a secret moves and destroys a rock with a touch of his finger..COOL! but I could very well do the same with a hammer? Get my drift? Hmmm bad example.
HOw about Bruse Lee's movie where in the end the mystical book of secrets revealed nothing but a Mirror inside? Ok, let's try this

You want secret tiknik ? What is most basic ? Number #1 strike...yes. Now you know what is most advanced tiknik? ....#1 strike :)

I mean you could come up with moves I have never seen but that's just because I don't know it but that does not invalidate that what you have shown me is not valid or can't be just as effective as the "hidden secret".

I studied with this one MAster and travelled 6 hours and train for two and travelled back another six, why? because he's that good. Just knowing that I was one of the select few made me feel that I was learning something different. After two years he finally told me it's all over. There's nothing left to show you. I could not understand this, He then said that I keep coming as though I was searching for the Holy Grail...that secret technique or ultimate move that I don't yet know. here's that secret....there are no secrets! The secret is to master what you DO know! "You keep searching that you never once stopped to develop what has already been shown and for the most part you will find that the mastery of the things you know will lead to the certain move that has not been shown...How much have you gathered , video taped in these years? Have you ever perfected them? NOt! because I still see how you move! Go and perfect these moves! Lessons over." I hate to sound like a monk with this stories but that's why I had to share mine regarding secrets because I personnaly had to go through this journey.

[neokensei]

Bayani,

I've heard/been in similar discussions regarding 'secrets'...and ultimately the point that the 'teacher' figure emphasizes is that there are NO SECRETS. One can actually say that, in a certain sense, all martial arts are the same (another point here basically pointing at the importance of the student and his efforts, as opposed to the thought that an art is better than other arts. Ex.: if someone comes up with a martial art that has explored, perhaps through calculation/scientific method, every possible avenue of movement/attack/defense/whatnot and may be seen as "perfect"(think of that wacky 'gun kata' from the movie 'equilibrium'), it would still NEED that the student exert a certain amount of EFFORT and, just as important as effort, UNDERSTANDING.).
One of the key points stressed out, if I recall, is having an OPEN MIND (if one's mind is open to every possibility, how can secrets truly be kept? right?).

Just my two cents...and, once again, I hope I made even a slight bit of sense. Mabuhay ang lahat ng Martial Arts (Long live all martial arts)

[kayumanggi]

I can't seem to understand what exactly you mean by "secrets" . If these are techniques or moves then maybe it was just a matter of time or just something that is different.

The use of the term just carries with it too much deception or a negative feeling if it's openly expressed.

True. It is not my intention to upset anyone. But I am just relating my experience with my teachers and what they have told me.

"Secrets" may seem to conotate deception, but we all have our secrets that we protect for some reason or other. For instance I have studied under many foreign arts like Brazilian Jujutsu, and Muay Thai, and I keep my skills in the FMA a "secret" just in case someone might take a casual match to the next level out of a sense of lost pride or machismo. I trust the people I have trained under and with in these arts, but I am not about to show off the counters that I know to their moves, because when I am training outside the FMA I try to keep my mind open to learn what other arts have to offer.

How this relates to this topic of "secrets" is that some Filipino Masters, or perhaps just MA masters in general, may teach perhaps 99% of what they know, and they are really teaching you everything that you need to know to defend yourself against both skilled and unskilled attackers. Especially concerning their Instructor and Master level students, because you may have to prove what you have learned, and defend the name of the art you represent, in matches with those who may challenge you. But they are showing you how to defend yourself against everyone in the world, except themselves and perhaps their kin. This is also common practice in the Chinese and Japanese arts.

For instance Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is derivative of Mitsuyo Maeda's Judo which he learned from the Kodokan. They made many innovations in the art, but when the founder Carlos Gracie wanted to challenge the Japanese Judo experts, he beat their #2 champion. This made them look bad, so they sent their #1 expert to regain their lost pride, who beat Carlos Gracie with techniques that most judokas and Carlos Gracie had never been shown. This is a classic example of why some techniques are kept hidden, or "secret".

As I stated earlier some techniques are never shown so that Filipino Grandmasters and their most trusted Masters will always have the upper hand should their own disciples, or in the instance of Carlos Gracie, a student of their disciple turn on them for the sake of establishing their own name and reputation.

Considering that the FMA previously existed in total secrecey, and would only be taught to family members, as some undoubtedly still are. We have come a long way in terms of "secrets". But this practice of secrecy which we are speaking of, does not take anything away from what FMA Masters are teaching the public. They still want their students to be the best possible martial artists that they can become in their style. But they also have to look out for themselves and their kin or closest disciples.

You want secret tiknik ? What is most basic ? Number #1 strike...yes. Now you know what is most advanced tiknik? ....#1 strike

I know that although I may never be priveleged to be taught 100% of what my teachers know. They have certainly taught me enough to defend myself against most if not all of the styles that I have seen and experienced.

If I have not proven worthy of that level of trust yet, well so be it. You can't force trust. I am confident in what I know, but I know that I can never be the equal of my Masters, nor do I want to be. I consider myself lucky just to be their student.

[QUOTE]You want secret tiknik ? What is most basic ? Number #1 strike...yes. Now you know what is most advanced tiknik? ....#1 strike[QUOTE]

I agree. Techniques are not important, what is most important in any art is a deep, intuitive understanding of the basics. Whatever secrets there may be are just a new set of basics that very few get to see. They are not necessarily superior by default. They are just simply unexpected.

[Bayani]

Now I understand,
Thanks.

[kayumanggi]

The secret is to master what you DO know! You keep searching that you never once stopped to develop what has already been shown and for the most part you will find that the mastery of the things you know will lead to the certain move that has not been shown

I reread your post again. This is a very good point. I had a similar revelation, and I have always tried to stress this to my students. Especially those who have achieved instructor status.

So many instructors keep searching for the "holy grail" of techniques, as you have pointed out. But you are absolutely right. Many instructors who are constantly searching out "new" techniques, have not even mastered the techniques that they already know.

I do not have a Black Belt in many of the arts that I have learned over the years, but I am constantly trying to perfect the techniques from these arts that I have included in my repetoire.

This means that I have been practicing the fundamentals in 5 or more arts for over 10 or so years for each of the arts (other than the FMA) that I know, and I really feel that I have learned more about these arts, through constant practice of the basics that I know, than I would have if I pursued Instructor status in each art, and just accumulated technique after technique without the same dedication to perfecting each and every technique, just to chase a Black Belt.

In the FMA, I am forever in awe of the endless fountain of knowledge that comes just from constant practice. Learning how to perform a technique is one thing. Learning how to apply it can take a life time of dedication.

[Diego_Vega]

Filipino coach of U.S. arnis team says R.P. needs more tourneys

A Filipino was the man responsible for the U.S. team?s emergence as overall champion in the recent eighth World Eskrima Kali Arnis Federation (Wekaf) World Championships held in Cebu City.


Bong Jornales, a globe-trotting practitioner of the art of stick fighting or arnis, trained and coached the Americans, who beat the Philippines by a mile for the world title in the sport that is supposed to be the Filipinos? forte.


A day before leaving for Michigan, where he is currently based, the 55-year old Jornales stressed at the Philippine Sportswriters Association Forum at the Manila Pavilion Tuesday the need for more arnis competitions in the country.


?It?s rather sad that hardly are there any Filipino arnis tournaments here when, in fact, it?s us who are the ones who started it,? he said at the program sponsored by Agfa Colors, Red Bull and Pagcor.


?Stick fighting is now popular in the US and other countries. And the Americans and Europeans are already specializing in it.?


Jornales said arnis gained prominence in the 1970s when a master, Danny Inosanto, appeared in the Bruce Lee film Game of Death. Inosanto dueled the late martial-arts star in the movie.


He also noted that Filipinos used to reign as world champions in 1998 and 2000.


Jornales, who had been to Sweden, Denmark, Brazil and other Southern American countries propagating stick fighting, said it?s not too late for Filipinos to renew their interest in arnis. All they need is more exposure to the sport, both here and abroad.


?I know na maraming magagaling na players dito, kaya kailangan lang talaga is more exposure para tuluy-tuloy ang interest ng mga Filipino,? said Jornales, a father to two grown-up boys and husband to a member of the U.S. team.


The country?s hosting of the wekaf event is a positive development toward attaining that goal.


?Siguro magandang simula ?yun [wekaf hosting]. Hopefully, arnis officials could pick up from there,? he added.