Traditional vs not

[Artikon]

I'm might get it for this one, but . . .
What do you view as traditional TKD?

[Labatt]

O boy, here we go.........

If you want to ger really traditional. Go to Kukiwan, check it out. That is the true stuff.

[Artikon]

But how does being associated with KKW, make tradition?
I'm going to really play devil's advocate in this thread, an idea I've been playing with but I need some other ideas and opinions first

[Labatt]

In my mind, traditional TKD would be when I first joined TKD.

8 yrs ago. It was sacred, to be a black belt, there were only 1 or none blackbelts in the entire school.

We had to train 24 hours non stop, with out food, or water. Then we would be tested at our weekest point, to gain our black belts. Even kids, like me.

That's how I got my JUNIOR black belt.

I had to test again, to get my pure black belt.



Now, it's totaly different. Kids 8 yrls old! Don't even know pattern Saja! Get there black belt, and only have to train 2 weeks before testing, for 1 hour!

Now, masters are handing out black belts, like they were candy. Black belts, used to mean something.

I know, that my fellow comrades, in my generation, earned the right to be called "Sir" or a true black belt. But still, it dosn't feel so great, all that hard work, and ppl who don't know patter 4, are getting them, with our juniot, while there 6 yrs old, they get the black belt. It makes my black belt rank feel worthless. Yet I know I am a true black belt, and deserve it.

[Artikon]

So you would be attesting that tradition is something that is done in the past? Something that you once went through that may no longer apply in TKD or even other MA schools. Correct me if I assume wrong please.

BTW, I'll have that workout to you as soon as I can get back into my school, its closed for the holidays, so give me a week :D

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Labatt

We had to train 24 hours non stop, with out food, or water. Then we would be tested at our weekest point, to gain our black belts. Even kids, like me.


Barefoot in the snow up hill BOTH WAYS!!!
:D

I know, that my fellow comrades, in my generation, earned the right to be called "Sir" or a true black belt. But still, it dosn't feel so great, all that hard work, and ppl who don't know patter 4, are getting them, with our juniot, while there 6 yrs old, they get the black belt. It makes my black belt rank feel worthless. Yet I know I am a true black belt, and deserve it.

If all you got out of your training was a belt I'd say it was a waste of time. Belts where a mistake, a really big one, and one we are stuck with. Now many instructors are just trying to make a bad system work for them. Don't think about them to much or you'll always end up frustrated.

There is nothing special about a "black belt", there are no special standards, no secret wisdom, no secret decoder ring, in the end it is just a retention tool that in my opnion is a failure, but we are stuck with it. You say the standards have fallen, which may be true. So what?

If there are more kids still around after 3 years then there where before I'd say the changes where an improvement.

The level of skill after 3 years would also be a better thing to look at, not the colour of belt.

[Labatt]

That's a good way of thinking.

I like to not think of belt status sometimes, but rather the quality of the martial artist. His passion, desire, and performance.

[HKD]

i would say itf is closer to triditional tkd than anything else. the kukkiwon is a joke they spend more time ripping people off than anytihng else.
HKD

[Artikon]

But what makes ITF more traditional?

Okay I'm going to throw this out there.
Back in the 1800's when the MA were starting to be constructed into structured classes and systems, there probably wasn't alot of communication between schools. Each school had their own way of teaching, even if it was the same system. The little differences in training would be that particular schools tradition, right? Who created these traditions within the school. The kwangjang of GM of that particular school.

So how can it be said that ITF is more traditional than the Kukkiwon style when neither of them are under just one instructor? Even if an instructor uses contemporary training methods, would that not be tradition at his school if he continued to incorporate them into his teaching and workout?

[Labatt]

Go 2000 yrs back in time. That my friends, is traditional

[Artikon]

So you attest age with tradition?

Okay how about if my family used to eat turkey at xmas, but then decided we liked ham better and switched to that for our xmas dinners. Eating ham is new to us, but then it becomes tradition if we continue doing it.

[Labatt]

True, In my view, how things were done way back then, a couple millinia ago. That's tradition. However, they(referring to people living in that age) attested to another 600 yrs back, that that was tradition. And so forth.

[HKD]

gen. choi was ITF thats what makes it more triditional they didit his way , i don't know if they will always but when he was alive they did . the kukkiwon is more on sparring than anything else.

[TkdWarrior]

to me tradition is wat my teacher followed n learnt from his teachers n so on...
i hav learnt this way...
-TkdWarrior-

[HKD]

yes, but he's talking about tridition as how it was originaly taught. kukkiwon and wtf isn't how tkd was is the begining. sparring wasn't the main thing then and isn't the main thing for itf tkd.

[TkdWarrior]

oh well i hav not much idea boaut kukkiwon or other styles of TKD except for WTF n ITF. anyways in my area we(ITF) follow Gen Choi's by heart...we do it the way he taught to our teachers n then to us... well sparring isn't the main thing but it's still in Gen Choi's book so we do it those ways...almost everything...
-TkdWarrior-

[Artikon]

yes, but he's talking about tridition as how it was originaly taught

Ahh but I never did say that.
TKD warrior said tradition is what his teacher taught him . . . to him that is how he was originally taught for him that is his traditional training. Does it matter how he was taught or what he was taught?

And to further clear something up about Kukkiwon, HKD, they have very little if anything to do with the olympic style sparring, which I think you are referring to, it's the WTF that covers that base.

TKDwarrior, I think so far you've said it best. It's how you are taught, which leaves a wide open book for anything. Your particular way is following Gen Choi, whereas mine is not but either way we can consider it traditional in our own aspects.

[HKD]

Originally posted by Artikon



And to further clear something up about Kukkiwon, HKD, they have very little if anything to do with the olympic style sparring, which I think you are referring to, it's the WTF that covers that base.


oh yes for many years the kukkiwon and the WTF tried to get tkd in the olympics with no luck, the USTU took over some time in the 90s and got it in the olympics. the WTF has nothing to do with the olmpics now.

[HKD]

Originally posted by Artikon




TKDwarrior, I think so far you've said it best. It's how you are taught, which leaves a wide open book for anything. Your particular way is following Gen Choi, whereas mine is not but either way we can consider it traditional in our own aspects.

so anything U do is triditional?

[ROBERT]

Tradition is a "way of doing things" that is passed down in a preserved state. When you start a tradition you are the first to pass down that "way" of doing it. When you end a tradition you have decided not to pass that "way" down. There is no minimum or maximum time limit on traditions.

Robert

[Tosh]

My opinion.

Traditional TKD??? Read General Choi's Encyclopedia first.

Traditional Korean MA?? Read a History book first. Or alternatively wait for the Discovery channel program on TKD to come back on. It had a good 30mins on Traditional Korean MA from Taekyon to forms of stick fighting.

[Artikon]

Robert I think you've had the best definition so far.

I think far to often people assume that tradition whether it be martial arts or religion, or anything else, is that tradition is static. I disagree and say tradition is very dynamic. The proof is simply in the evolution of thinking and the way humans have evolved. We rarely do anything the same as our predecessors did. Why? They made mistakes and we learned from them, thus new traditions were born until mistakes or problems were discovered in those.

Question for Tosh now . . . why do you attest the Gen. encyclopedia as relating traditional TKD?

I know devils advocate :rolleyes:

Regards

[Artikon]

the WTF has nothing to do with the olmpics now

Except Dr. Un Yung Kim is on the IOC commission board. I still think the WTF plays a big part of the olympics.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Artikon
Robert I think you've had the best definition so far.


Question for Tosh now . . . why do you attest the Gen. encyclopedia as relating traditional TKD?




Because it will tells you when the word TKD was invented. Notice I'm not saying who invented it!!! Don't take me for someone who dumbly follows propaganda.

The point I'm making is Traditional TKD??? Hmm TKD is only half a century old in its current incarnation. The tools from which it was built?? Now we are talking about traditional Korean MA like:

Taek Kyon
Soo bak do (alias Subak)
Bang Soo Do
Kong Soo Do (Way of the empty hand)
Kwon Bop
Tae Soo Do (Way of the foot and hand)
Tang Soo Do (Way of the Chineese hand)

Of which they tried to unify under one banner - namely TKD

[HKD]

Originally posted by Artikon


Except Dr. Un Yung Kim is on the IOC commission board. I still think the WTF plays a big part of the olympics.

you think wrong the USTU has taken it over totaly

[Artikon]

:confused:

Then what is the role of the WTF? Since when did the IOC deal with national bodies instead of their international counterparts? Why am I not a member of the USTU then? Is not the USTU still a member of the WTF? When did the USTU take over this initiative?

[TkdWarrior]

Tosh i combining diff arts under one name doesn't make it traditional...
see robert's or my thoughts(both same) about tradition as being passed down as it is...
-TkdWarrior-

[Tosh]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior
Tosh i combining diff arts under one name doesn't make it traditional...
see robert's or my thoughts(both same) about tradition as being passed down as it is...
-TkdWarrior-


The point I'm making is TKD was only invented as an art 50+ years ago. Therefore saying " Traditional " in this sense means what will be passed down like Robert says from the original blueprint of TKD 50+ years ago. This is traditional TKD.

Now, traditional Korean Martial arts, from which TKD is based, have been practised for thousands of years more.

In short Traditional TKD = General Choi et al
Traditional Korean Martial Arts = List I gave above (not exhaustive)

To talk about traditional TKD you have to qoute the General's material. I'm not just saying this because I'm ITF it's just a historical fact.

[Artikon]

In short Traditional TKD = General Choi et al
*snip*
To talk about traditional TKD you have to qoute the General's material. I'm not just saying this because I'm ITF it's just a historical fact

Tosh I'm gonna have to disagree with this.

I'll concede to the fact that Gen Choi has done a ton for TKD, and for the ITF in specific, but for me this is not traditional TKD since I have never been taught the ITF way/system/tuls/etc . . . For you it will most definetly be tradition for you but I can't claim it is for myself hence some of my disagreement.

The rest of my diagreement comes with your historical fact. I truly don't believe the historical fact for the simple point that TKD was around before the General's materials. But before I go into further detail, and possibly stick my foot in my mouth :D , quick question for you Tosh, when was the Gen's encyclopedia copyright/printed for the first time?

Cheers

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Artikon


. I truly don't believe the historical fact for the simple point that TKD was around before the General's materials.

Cheers



No no no you misunderstood. Yes The encyclopedia was published in 1985. General Chois first text about TKD was 1959. So okay, you could argue that the final product is not like that which was around in the 50's yes.

What I was pointing out was the name TKD was invented around the time of the 50's. What TKD was then and what is is now has "developed" which was the original principle behind TKD, that is was to be a developing martial art. That's why the general wrote the texts so that the moves became the most efficient, powerful techniques we could muster.

In this sense IMHO if you are practising "traditional" TKD (i.e. from what you are describing is the TKD as it was first formed circa 1955) you are only limiting yourself.

But since it was formed for the intention of being a developing martial art then to say " I am performing traditionl TKD as it was laid out in 1955" is a contradiction.

I imagine if someone said they practiced JKD as laid out by Bruce Lee a number of JKD exponents would attest this was entirely against the original principle.

I agree with ROBERT'S statement that tradition is following something that is passed down.

But IMO TKD tradition was to constantaly improve they manner in which we do TKD. For me the encyclopedia shows 99% of the correct "pictures" .However, pictures of techinques and how to perform them are totally different. Because

Just a generall question for everybody since we're tuned in.

How many clubs practice Sine wave and hip twist??


P.s. The main idea of my posts was to eradicate the idea that "tradition" means something very old. Just because you say traditional TKD it does not mean 2000 years ago like Labatt mentioned.

[Artikon]

Okay, agreed

TKD for as I see it is a developing and dynamic art, whichever system you partake in.

I can't comment on the ITF but what I've seen in the years I've been training under KKW is an evolution of thought and of techniques. Yes there are those people who create and develop soley for sport, but there's nothing wrong with that as I see it. It still progresses the art as people are learning how to work with their body comfortably and efficiently, which I see as the basis of TKD. If joints are clicking and it's an unhappy pain it's probably wrong :D

About your question on sine wave and hip twist. I don't understand what sine wave is, could you explain it please . . and for hip twist, for my understanding yes I practise hip twist as I see it as a natural movement for power and speed development.

Cheers

[Tosh]

Sine-Wave= Movements are carried out in this sort of motion.


_
/ \
\ _ /

[Artikon]

Sorry Tosh could you elaborate. Not sure I understand your diagram . . . . or I'm really tired . . . . . It's probably tired :rolleyes:

[Tosh]

Sorry came out wrong

Here we go

[Artikon]

So what is the purpose of this type of movement? What sort of techniques are down with this motion?

Thanks

[Tosh]

Nearly all movements use sine-wave motion

The basic principal is the storage of potential energy on the down and up stroke then a downwards trajectory on impact of the target to increase power.

Basically getting technique higher than the target to allow gravity to help the strike.

[Artikon]

Okay then sine wave must have no effect on say rising techniques, say uppercuts, rising kicks, high blocks, etc . . .

Right now, without experimenting with it keep in mind, is that the power potential of the sine wave isn't great enough to really warrent, unless the technique is specifically a downward motion like an axe kick, or low block, down punch/strike. Anything moving in that direction. I say this because I think (keep in mind no measuring has been done so this is a guesstimate) giving potential accleration of the technique you would surpass the pull that gravity has for that short distance. For a much longer distance I could see the sine wave helping in the fact that eventually a persons acceleration would slow down and gravitiy would pull. Now keep in mind I'm not a physicist, perhaps if CKDstudent is reading this thread he may want to offer some input.

I think in theory the principle is sounds, but I don't see the practicality behind it. Seems like extra motion to me, which doesn't seem to efficient. Course I could be visualizing it wrong. I'm guessing it's a pretty subtle movement like the hip twist. Am I right so far?

I've heard that sine wave has only just been begun being pushed by the powers that be in the ITF. How was sine wave developed, was it Gen Choi's idea, or something that's developed through the years? Have you seen an improvement in the power aspect of techniques?

[Tosh]

Just realised my explanation was crappy. Have slapped my wrists and pointed to a far more reliable explanation.

http://www.taekwondo.freeserve.co.uk/technical_explanations/explanation_of_sine_wave.htm

Of particular interest to CKD fans will be the moving in this manner, as opposed to the old saw tooth and Karate method cuts strain on the lower back :).

By Kararte my sweeping generalisation is apologised for. I mean trying to keep the head on a horizontal plain.

Hope that helps. I personally feel the difference in techniques but for some of them it can be a bugger to do. The emphasis on generating maximum power.

Also, I 've learned hip twist and sine wave since.. 1996 when I started TKD.

[TkdWarrior]

ok Tosh ur link doesn't work for me...

How was sine wave developed, was it Gen Choi's idea, or something that's developed through the years? Have you seen an improvement in the power aspect of techniques?
it's basically Gen Choi's idea, how it developed ? who knows'
but from wat i understand it works as a basic traditional prinicple of CMA(power comes from legs, controlled by waist n out by extrimeties)
Now the Sine wave basically follow this process where power is generated within movements, letting the body sink for a while, then controlling by waist out by extremtities(punch,elbow etc)

ok i understood this from learning Tai chi before that wat i knew about Sine wave is that it generates strength, rooting n balance.
hope this helps...
-TkdWarrior-

[Tosh]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior

ok i understood this from learning Tai chi before that wat i knew about Sine wave is that it generates strength, rooting n balance.
hope this helps...
-TkdWarrior-

Yeah I've heard this was adopted form the Chinese MA. Can any of the practitioners throw any more light on this??

[Kwan Jang]

-I am probably going to annoy some peope with saying this, but if you go back and check history from independent sources you'll find some truth behind the propeganda. I would recommend Dr.Scott Shaw(a Phd, martial arts historian, and 7th dan in Hapkido) as a very good source who tells it w/o politics or sugarcoating(nor any apparent axes to grind, either). First, Gen. Choi was a 2nd dan in Shotokan(some say 1st, but I would give him the benefit of the doubt), who used his position at a time of martial law to unify the different Kwans(schools/systems). All the Kwan leaders were given the rank at that time of 4th dan and Gen. Choi was given the honorary rank of 4th dan as the head of the military branch(not by virtue of his martial knowledge, but his military rank), this honorary rank was later revolked while he was still in Korea. Gen. Choi was later on the loosing side of a military coup and was exiled from his native land. He was the head of the ITF at the time and later moved it's headquarters to Canada. The masters in Korea, many of whom were not overly fond of him or his organization to begin with(this coming from some of the older, 9th dan Kwan Jang Nims I've talked to, who like to privately talk about what "really happened back in the day"-for what there stories are worth, but they were some of the people there at the time), felt the headquarters and administration of Korea's national sport/art should be in Korea. The Japanese occupation had destroyed much of the Korean culture (and placed a ban on the practice of the native Korean martial arts) and most written records. Most of the original Kwan leaders were black belts in Shotokan and some in Judo as well. The early ITF TKD was a Korean version of Shotokan for the most part. Later, some surviving elements of tae kyon and subak were reintroduced helping to give TKD a seperate idenity from the Japanese systems. Also, some of the Kwan leaders had trained in China rather than in Japan and brought those elements into the mix as well. If you can imagine the gov't basically forcing a merger under their control of the martial arts. In some ways, this a great boost to the growth and respectability of your art and your schools. On the other hand, many would resent what they viewed as a gov't official holding the reigns on them. Even though he was a legitimate martial artist, at least at the time he was no master, and once out of a position of power over them, many of the early masters were glad to be rid of him. Also, the USTU is the national branch of the WTF in the US. They are the US nat'l governing body of the IOC, but the WTF is the international authority. And they do have and exert their control.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

So where does ATA fit into the scheme of things?

[KickChick]

In 1968, General Choi met with then Master Haeng Ung Lee, who at the time was teaching the Pyeong Ahn forms (pre-Taekwondo, Japanese based forms) to his org. General Choi quickly taught Master Lee the first 16 Chon-gi forms in only 4 days and three nights. This system of forms was the first set of forms developed under the new TKD of Korea.

ATA stands for the America Taekwondo Association and was founded in 1969 in Omaha, Nebraska, USA, by then-Master Haeng Ung Lee. The ATA had used the Chang Hun Taekwondo forms since 1969 -- and the "Pinan" forms prior to that -- but Grandmaster Lee noticed something missing in the forms. So, Grandmaster introduced the Songahm system of Taekwondo.

The ATA developed a unified teaching system in which white belt beginners learned kicks in theirforms, and one-step sparring was closely integrated with the forms to aid in student development by making a more logical system for beginning students.

[hybrid_TKD]

BUt where does ATA & USTU & WTF all fit in together?

[KickChick]

They do not "fit together" but instead are separate "divisions"..... an 'association' ... a 'union' ... and a 'federation'.

"Traditional" TKD I believe is derived from the original "kwans" of TKD.
The various kwans ("schools") of retained much of the style of karate-do for many years, including the various kata or forms of karate-do. In 1965, Hong-Hi Choi (the "Father of Taekwon-Do") was still teaching Shorin-ryu and Shorei-ryu forms along with his own forms, called the Chang Hon set (which our school teaches).

TKD History (http://www.indiana.edu/~iutkd/history/tkdhist.html) ... this account appears in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts.

[HKD]

Kick chick, your a journal of asian martial arts your self.

HKD