Human Cloning?

[YODA]

Hi MAPers

With the clainm today by the Raelians, a religeous sect of some 55,000 people, that they have sucessfully produced the 1st human clone baby - what are your views on this?

1st Human Clone Baby born Dec 26th (http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/12/27/human.cloning/index.html)

[Saz]

Its a good step if it can help further medical science and such. I can only see it leading to things like 'designer babies' though.

[The unwise one]

Well speaking as a mother I dont think that this should be done at all.:mad:

You can't go around creating a child that may look exactly like the child or person lost , you cant go around creating a child just for the sake of saving another child's life either, And who has the right to say they are perfect enough to have another version of them created A child is an individual and should be treasured in that way an INDIVIDUAL . God forbid if anything ever happened to any of my children sure yes id wish more than anything to have them back but Never would i resort to something like that.
Can you imagine the expectations that would be landed on the child's head for rest of its life knowing they were there purely to replace another or there purely to give life to another NO NO NO.

There are so many inocent children children desperate for a loving family but nobody wants them, and so many desperate couples desperate to adopt but the goverment makes it sooo hard, thats what needs to be dealt with, leave mother nature to take it's course , we mess with nature one day we will pay.

Clare

excuse any spelling mistakes PLEASE .

[YODA]

There are so many inocent children children desperate for a loving family but nobody wants them, and so many desperate couples desperate to adopt but the goverment makes it sooo hard, thats what needs to be dealt with, leave mother nature to take it's course , we mess with nature one day we will pay.

--- That just about sums it up for me Clare. I can see where cloning has it's place in medical research - but not the creation of new people.

[r4bid]

If they actually created a healthy clone then we have a lot to be happy about. Clones suffer from many biological disorders pertaining to shortened telomers and high rates of mutation(has to do with our current cloning techniques and understanding of cells).
If the child is healthy then the Raelians have solved some of the bigger problems in biology today and have paved the way for extending natural lifespans (telomers are important in life length) and making us more resistant to disease by controlling genetic mutation rates.

That being said, I really do not believe that they have a clone. If a whole world of scientists cant get this tech to a satisfactory point then how did a small cult of alien worshipers?
If they did by some chance create one then it is going to be pretty screwed up and will probably have a rather short and painful life
:(

[Spike]

Always remember that all Doctors used to be Medical Students: and we`ve all heard about medical students

[YODA]

Excellent point Spike - it's a wonder they had time. :D

[BlackRaven]

The Clone Wars will come next. Watch out.

I think it is need to be carefully monitored. I can understand them wanting to prove it can be done, but I think it should be left there. If they want to clone, then bring back the dodo, etc. Clone a few pandas. Some species that are dead or dying. Maybe we can create an island and put some dinosaurs on it - I don;t forsee a problem with that. ;)

[The unwise one]

We shouldnt be cloning anything animals are extinct for a reason again leave mother nature alown, We shouldnt even need to prove it possable.

Clare :)

[fluffydoc]

Originally posted by BlackRaven
Maybe we can create an island and put some dinosaurs on it - I don;t forsee a problem with that. ;)

You didn't watch Jurassic Park did you?:D

[The unwise one]

heheeh I did all 3 LOL :D




Clare

[The unwise one]

Ask yourself this question could we really cope with 2 yoda's ????? I think not LOL :D

Clare

[BlackRaven]

You didn't watch Jurassic Park did you

Whatever gives you that impression.

[YODA]

Originally posted by The unwise one
Ask yourself this question could we really cope with 2 yoda's ????? I think not LOL :D

Clare


LOL!

((Cue Christopher Lambert voice))

"There can be only one."

[big e]

whats next? they gonna use these colones to create the super human genome soldier? hehehe

metal gear solid anyone?

[YODA]

Begun - the Clone War has :D

[r4bid]

Guess its time to trade in my long staff for a light saber. Atleast I don't have to go looking for Yoda on some swampy planet...
(start star wars theme song and fade to black as clone armies march towards the sunset)

[Spike]

I`m not afraid.

[Cain]

No not the hair, never the hair


Originally posted by Spike
I`m not afraid.

Maybe because u hv no hair rite now :D

|Cain|

[Spike]

I can see you`re not a patron of the classics

[YODA]

Originally posted by Spike
I`m not afraid.


Goooood. You will be.

You WILL be.

:p :p :p

[The unwise one]

HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL YOU MARTIAL ART LOONIE'S :D :D :D


Clare xxxxxx

[Spike]

"Goooood. You will be.

You WILL be."


the man knows. the man knows

[wayofthedragon]

cloning people...hmmm, i'm not so sure about that. I don't think it's a good Idea, but eh, people are gonna do what they want to. I guess it's something we have to live with rather we accept it or not.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Several thoughts:

Genetic make-up gives the potential, not the person, there's a lot more development in nurture than in sheer genetics.

Even clones wouldn't have identical DNA or fingerprints, or retinal patterns, unless you find a way to screen out absolutely all radiation for a nine-month period, supply them with only completely safe and screened nutrition, and prevent any sort of contamination. Frankly, it isn't going to happen. Plus as soon as they stepped out of the safe environment things would start to change.

If we can find a way to prevent brain development beyond the autonomous functions then there'll be interesting results. Firstly we'd get organ harvesting, which so long as the clones are non-sentient I see no problem with, we do it with pigs already. Then you've got the Long Pig restaurants opening up, and I'll put down the Spider Jerusalem books now, honest.

[Cain]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Several thoughts:

Genetic make-up gives the potential, not the person, there's a lot more development in nurture than in sheer genetics.

Even clones wouldn't have identical DNA or fingerprints, or retinal patterns, unless you find a way to screen out absolutely all radiation for a nine-month period, supply them with only completely safe and screened nutrition, and prevent any sort of contamination. Frankly, it isn't going to happen. Plus as soon as they stepped out of the safe environment things would start to change.

If we can find a way to prevent brain development beyond the autonomous functions then there'll be interesting results. Firstly we'd get organ harvesting, which so long as the clones are non-sentient I see no problem with, we do it with pigs already. Then you've got the Long Pig restaurants opening up, and I'll put down the Spider Jerusalem books now, honest.

OOOOOH!!!!!!!

My head hurts

|Cain|

[YODA]

Then you've got the Long Pig restaurants opening up, and I'll put down the Spider Jerusalem books now, honest.

Sounds interesting - tell me more!

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Long Pig is another term for humans, the Long Pig restaurants were supposed to use cloning technology to grow human meat for sale, rack of ribs, that type of thing.

Unfortunately it does turn your skin yellow.

[Kimpatsu]

Well speaking as a mother I dont think that this should be done at all.:mad:
You can't go around creating a child that may look exactly like the child or person lost , you cant go around creating a child just for the sake of saving another child's life either, And who has the right to say they are perfect enough to have another version of them created A child is an individual and should be treasured in that way an INDIVIDUAL .
Congratulations, Clare; you've just insulted every identical twin in existence. You've also insulted every mother, for having a placenta to nurture the baby. Identical twins are clones of each other, and every placenta is a clone of the baby it nurtures. Cloning is nothing new, either; anyone who's ever received cancer treatment since 1952 has received HELA cells, which were cloned by oncologists from the late Henrietta Lacks. Labs around the world produce litres and litres of HELA cells every day. You probably received plasma adduced from HELA cells when you had your baby, assuming you had your baby in hospital.
So, if you're that opposed to cloning, why didn't you refuse treatment? And don't you have anything to say to all those identical twins?

[Kimpatsu]

--- That just about sums it up for me Clare. I can see where cloning has it's place in medical research - but not the creation of new people.
Presumably that extends to infertile couples, Yoda? :rolleyes:

[Kimpatsu]

If they actually created a healthy clone then we have a lot to be happy about. Clones suffer from many biological disorders pertaining to shortened telomers and high rates of mutation(has to do with our current cloning techniques and understanding of cells).
If the child is healthy then the Raelians have solved some of the bigger problems in biology today and have paved the way for extending natural lifespans (telomers are important in life length) and making us more resistant to disease by controlling genetic mutation rates.

That being said, I really do not believe that they have a clone. If a whole world of scientists cant get this tech to a satisfactory point then how did a small cult of alien worshipers?
If they did by some chance create one then it is going to be pretty screwed up and will probably have a rather short and painful life
:(
Nah, the Raelians haven't really cloned a baby. Shame on the tabloid press to fall for it.

[YODA]

Presumably that extends to infertile couples, Yoda? :rolleyes:

You presume correctly :rolleyes:

[Kimpatsu]

We shouldnt be cloning anything animals are extinct for a reason again leave mother nature alown, We shouldnt even need to prove it possable.
So, Clare, you haven't had your children immunised at all? You just leave them to the mercy of natural selection, in the hope that we can all return to Victorian morbidity rates. Of course, it also means that you don't eat any modern fruits such as grapes and certain oranges, which exist due to selective plant breeding. Or do you own a dog, because all dogs, without exception, are also the results of deliberate selective breeding from wolves. And then there's all this nonsense about "organic" foods, with people misusing the term "organic", when they mean "unassisted". If you think "natural" (i.e., unprocessed) is automatically better, consider that cyanide, cocaine, nicotine and anthrax are all natural, whereas ciprofloxacin, chlorine bleach, and DEET are all artifical (i.e., they do not occur spontaneously in nature).
Oh, and as to "leaving mother nature alone", you defeat Darwinian natural selection every time you use contraception. Or are you a Catholic?

[Kimpatsu]

Ask yourself this question could we really cope with 2 yoda's ????? I think not LOL :D
I know you were joking, but I'd just like to point out that even if you cloned Yoda, you would not get two of him. You would get an infant who is genetically identical, but that child could never grow up to be identical in every respect to Yoda, even if you created an artifical cocooned environment in which nothing modern were allowed to leak in, and raised Yoda as if he were still in the 1970s. Nuture is too powerful; for this reason, even if you cloned Mozart or Einstein, you would end up with a genetically identical child, but not the same prodigy.

[Kimpatsu]

cloning people...hmmm, i'm not so sure about that. I don't think it's a good Idea, but eh, people are gonna do what they want to. I guess it's something we have to live with rather we accept it or not.
But why don't you think it's a good idea?

[Kimpatsu]

Several thoughts:
Genetic make-up gives the potential, not the person, there's a lot more development in nurture than in sheer genetics.
Absolutely true.
Even clones wouldn't have identical DNA or fingerprints, or retinal patterns...
Not correct; they would share the same DNA. background radiation can't break DNA bonds. You're right about fingerprints, though, because human embryology is epigenetic, not preformationistic (i.e., it's a recipe, not a blueprint). If you follow the same recipe to bake a cake, the cake turns out differnet every time; you can't reconstruct the recipe by backwards-engineering the cake to figure out the position of each and every raisin, for example; this is not true of a car, which you can retro-engineer to recreate the blueprint. So it is with people; we're cakes, not cars. (Could this be the origin of the expression, "bun in the oven", I wonder... ;) )

[Kimpatsu]

You presume correctly :rolleyes:
How unfair, when the placenta that nurtured you in utero is no more than a clone of you. Or do you think that you, too, should never have been born?

[YODA]

Congratulations, Clare; you've just insulted every identical twin in existence. You've also insulted every mother, for having a placenta to nurture the baby. Identical twins are clones of each other, and every placenta is a clone of the baby it nurtures. Cloning is nothing new, either; anyone who's ever received cancer treatment since 1952 has received HELA cells, which were cloned by oncologists from the late Henrietta Lacks. Labs around the world produce litres and litres of HELA cells every day. You probably received plasma adduced from HELA cells when you had your baby, assuming you had your baby in hospital.
So, if you're that opposed to cloning, why didn't you refuse treatment? And don't you have anything to say to all those identical twins?
Welcome to MAP Kimpatsu - just a heads up when reviving old threads - you may not get an answer when replying to specific people. For example - Clare last visited MAP on April 29th - 2003

[Kimpatsu]

Welcome to MAP Kimpatsu - just a heads up when reviving old threads - you may not get an answer when replying to specific people. For example - Clare last visited MAP on April 29th - 2003
Hi, Yoda. (Cool handle, BTW; Yoda has got to be one of THE BEST chharacters ever created in SF/space opera.)
I know that Clare's no longer around; I'm hoping that other people will read the thread and actually learn some science. Calre clearly didn't know that monozygotic twins are clones of each other, or that every placenta is a clone of the baby it nourishes. Nor did she know about HELA cells. As I always maintain, you are NOT entitled to your opinion; you are entitled to an informed opinion. Thinking with your gut only means that you aren't using your brain.
BTW, is there some way I can subscribe to threads, so that if somebody responds, I get an automatic e-mail giving me the heads up?
TIA,

[YODA]

Hi, Yoda. (Cool handle, BTW; Yoda has got to be one of THE BEST chharacters ever created in SF/space opera.)
I know that Clare's no longer around; I'm hoping that other people will read the thread and actually learn some science.
Sounds good to me :D




BTW, is there some way I can subscribe to threads, so that if somebody responds, I get an automatic e-mail giving me the heads up?
TIA,
There's a drop down box in the "Reply to thread" area called "Thread subscription." However this is only visible if you use the "Post Reply" button rather than "Quick Reply."

[Kimpatsu]

There's a drop down box in the "Reply to thread" area called "Thread subscription." However this is only visible if you use the "Post Reply" button rather than "Quick Reply."
Thank you.

[Knight_Errant]

I seriously, seriously doubt that these religious nut-jobs have succeeded where all the world's best scientists have failed.
It sounds like yet another, albeit another clever, fake.
The human genome is VERY complicated and cloning it would take a huge amount of work, resulting in thousands of botched eggs and sodded-up foetuses.
Whereas, as we are all aware, we seem to be having real problems persuading them to stop mating in the normal way... :D
On the other hand, if they could manage to make it work reliably, it would be a great benefit to infertile couples etc.
A few minor points though:
1. If you can't deal with the kid not being the right sex you ordered, how the hell do you imagine you're gonna cope when it swears at you, backchats you, fails at school, shows athletic incompetence and generally dissapoints you? Parenthood isn't about getting what you want.
2. Why not consider adopting? You'd be surprised what a kid is capable of if he's given a chance.

[Poop-Loops]

whats next? they gonna use these colones to create the super human genome soldier? hehehe

metal gear solid anyone?

I doubt that's far from the truth, actually.

PL

[NeilX66]

Just as an aside from the human cloning, one of the comments that struck me was that we shouldn't clone animals either, that if they are going extinct its for a reason, but isn't the reason for most extinctions in modern times mans destruction of the environment ?

[Kimpatsu]

Just as an aside from the human cloning, one of the comments that struck me was that we shouldn't clone animals either, that if they are going extinct its for a reason, but isn't the reason for most extinctions in modern times mans destruction of the environment ?
Absolutelky, Neil.
The problem is that people who oppose cloning just don't understand it; in fact, as I explained earlier, cloning's been around for at least half a century, in the form of HELA cells. I don't see any opposition to that. Cloning and gene splicing could cure hereditary diseases like Down's syndrome and achondroplasty. Isn't that worth trying?
Ignorance is not a good basis for rejecting something.

[NeilX66]

I think the problem stems, as you point out, from ignorance. Most peoples idea of what cloning is is likely to come from dodgy sci fi films, rather than anything they studied, add to that all the conspiracy theorists who talk about it already being done, and you generate an environment of fear with regards to a potentially valuable medical technique. ( you could and gene therapy, splicing, genetic modification as well ), if a human clone was brought to full adulthood, what would be the point?, other than to prove it could be done, all you get is an individual, shaped by his experiences and education, that happens to be genetically identical to somebody else.

[Kimpatsu]

I think the problem stems, as you point out, from ignorance. Most peoples idea of what cloning is is likely to come from dodgy sci fi films, rather than anything they studied, add to that all the conspiracy theorists who talk about it already being done, and you generate an environment of fear with regards to a potentially valuable medical technique. ( you could and gene therapy, splicing, genetic modification as well ), if a human clone was brought to full adulthood, what would be the point?, other than to prove it could be done, all you get is an individual, shaped by his experiences and education, that happens to be genetically identical to somebody else.
Oh, I don't know, Neil, cloning the father or mother would help infertile parents by giving them a child of their own genetic structure; something they otherwise couldn't have.
As you rightly point out, the fear of science comes from dodgy SF, but such is the meme within the human psyche that we won't be rid of it easily, although improved science education in schools would help.
Best,

[killbill]

rats, i was gonna make the point that theres too much ignorance floating around when it comes to cloning, but you alreaduy ais that. I have actually had people argue "But they could clone Hitler!"

[Kimpatsu]

rats, i was gonna make the point that theres too much ignorance floating around when it comes to cloning, but you alreaduy ais that. I have actually had people argue "But they could clone Hitler!"
Or Einstein. Or Pasteur. Or Shakespeare...
Actually, as I pointed out earlier, that wouldn't matter. Having the same genes wouldn't make them the same person. (Hey! Sudden idea; let's clone Hitler and raise him to be a human rights advocate; wouldN't that be a kick in the head!)
I'm sure you used a similar argument to dispatch your critics, Bill.

[killbill]

actually, when i hear things like that i just make a note to ignore the person.

I think we should clone hitler and have him be a talk show host.

[Kimpatsu]

I think we should clone hitler and have him be a talk show host.
ROTFLOL! :D :D

[Knight_Errant]

or we could clone, say, bruce lee and mas oyama and make them fight just to see what happens :D

[aikiwolfie]

Learning how to clone things is a required step in further understanding cell biology so that doctors can provide the cures to diseases we expect them to. If scientists can figure out how to make cells develop the way we need them to then we can solve a great number of medical problems.

If scientists could clone individual cells we could cure things like Parkinsons, Dimenscia, Paralysis, Blindness and the list goes on. With a better understanding of cell biology we can cure cancer, viral and bacterial infections.

Imagine being able to create a drug that tells the AIDs virus to self destruct or stop breeding. Imagine being able to repair cancer cells so that they shut down as damaged cells are supposed to.

Unfortunately cloneing technology is still far to primitive to create perfect individual cells. Science hasn't yet learned how to control development on that level. So cloneing entire animals is still a required part of the learning process.

The cloneing of humans is however another matter. I don't beleive a human should be cloned for any reason. Medical science has already extended the human life span by considerable amounts. Although cloneing technology can help cure diseases it should not be used to make people effectivley imortal. We all have to accept that we will die some day.

Of course if the only argument against cloning a human is it places undue pressure on the child and there are already too many orphans in need of homes, doesn't that bring into question the morality of IVF treatments?

Often when people have to fight for the right to have IVF treatment they ironicaly argue it's their "God given right". God of course didn't give them the right because they cannot conceive on their own. So should IVF be aloud? Why should wealth decide if a person can or cannot have a child? How is this morally any different from cloneing as a means of reproduction? The orphans still get left behind.

[killbill]

looks like i was the only one to reply "who cares?" on the poll

[timmeh!]

I can't see human clones making it past the moral outcry of the cloned children produced as they perfect the process. The pictures and problems (both mental and physical dysfunctions) of those produced would get into the media.

Mind you that's what they said about pictures from the first world war. Very few real pictures of the results of war made it into the media at the time because they thought the populace would lose their stomach for a war. Maybe this is slightly prophetic then, that as we see more and more resulting pictures and stories of cloned kids with deformities (for example), then we'll become as immune to that as we are now of seeing death and destruction in the media.

The average American today has seen over 2000 dead bodies on TV by the time they are 13. I'm 32 and had hardly seen one in the news by the time I was 13.

If designer humans are on the way and no doubt experimentation has and probably is occuring, it fills me with dread.

Mind you I thought the invasion of Iraq was a bad idea, so I could be wrong...

[Tireces]

or we could clone, say, bruce lee and mas oyama and make them fight just to see what happens :D

What if neither of the clones took interest in martial arts? Then you'd have a dilemma...or one hell of a carnival booth! "Come get bragging rights to beating up martial arts legends! Step right up!" You could nab some serious cash.

[LeadLegger]

Absolutelky, Neil.
The problem is that people who oppose cloning just don't understand it; in fact, as I explained earlier, cloning's been around for at least half a century, in the form of HELA cells. I don't see any opposition to that. Cloning and gene splicing could cure hereditary diseases like Down's syndrome and achondroplasty. Isn't that worth trying?
Ignorance is not a good basis for rejecting something.
are we talking about cloning humans or cloning animals? I don't like the idea of cloning humans because soon they'll be able to pick out the bad genes (like fruits and vegetables) and make super people who are perfect in every way.

Cloning animals is cool because there are so many people in this world, and not enough food :(

[timmeh!]

Cats can now have more than nine lives thanks to a Californian company that is the first US firm to go commercial and offer the public a pet cloning service.
Five customers have already parted with $50,000 each for a copy of their cats.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3663277.stm

the law suit if you knocked that kitty over is going to huuuuurt

[Guitarboy1212]

i see nothing wrong with cloning. just because it's the same genes doesn't mean the person will have the same personality or even look just like the thing you cloned. it could look completely different because of different life choices made by the individual. people who think cloning is wrong are just stupid. whats so wrong with it? so what if the child knows he's a clone. big deal. i wouldn't freak out if i found out i was cloned. you people worry way to much

[Guitarboy1212]

are we talking about cloning humans or cloning animals? I don't like the idea of cloning humans because soon they'll be able to pick out the bad genes (like fruits and vegetables) and make super people who are perfect in every way.

Cloning animals is cool because there are so many people in this world, and not enough food :(

being able to make a super human is the ultimate goal. it is our purpose, in a way. i mean, why do we reproduce? to pass on our genes of course! now through natural selection (which would happen to us if we didn't have all the technology we do) the fittest survive and pass on there genes hopefully eventually making a pefect species (at least for the given environment). if we can make a superhuman, than everything would be perfect. we wouldn't have to have sexual reproduction, in fact we might all turn into a species without males or females and just clone ourselves. there is one living organism (can't remember the name) where if it is in harsh conditions you will find both male and female mating, but if the environmental conditions are good, then they will simply clone themselves. this is because if they are struggling, they will mate in hope of an offspring with a mutations that will give it an advantage in this harsh new environment, once this happens, the good offspring will simply start to clone itself. naturally, the weaker of that specie will die because they are not adapt to the environment, and the one left is the superior being. this represents having a "superhuman"

[Pepsi32123]

I think that cloning is wrong. If we create a human, then that human is just as good as any other out there in the world. I heard a story about a girl that cloned herself incase she had a problem with her in ther future. One night, an organ stopped working, and her body wouldn't accept anyone else's blood type, organ, whatever. With her "daughter", her clone, she said, "We're going to have to kill you so I can live. You want youre mommy to live, don't you?" That's wrong because she was using her daughter as "spare parts" for herself. Now, does anyone think that she'd do that if it was a non-test tube baby? Now, that was just a scenario, not true.