Meditation

[chapskins]

Thought this thread may be of use to those that are new to meditation and even those that have been sitting for sometime, I thought it maybe an opertunity for people to post discribing the type of practice that they are doing or have done, maybe problems that they may be having, in the spirit of sharing, for those that may know, to pass on their experience to others, talking, not telling.

[svadhyaya]

I practiced Raja Yoga in my youth and it gave me a whole new perspective on life. It changed me from being extremely angry to just mildly annoyed ;)

I have also practiced other forms of trance-inducement (ceremonial ritual, hypnosis) and am always very interested in altered states of consciousness, not to reveal any ultimate truths or enlightenment, but simply so I can then see the world from an entirely different viewpoint. To me the more viewpoints I can introduce to my mind, the better I am able to make decisions and judge situations.

[chapskins]

How are you, sounds very interesting, is always good to have an inquiring mind, we only limit ourselves by thinking, yep i'm happy with this, I've been doing Zazen for some time now, was the first thing that i came across and have found it a very natural, have done Taoist meditation but found that it is very involed, leads the mind to become very busy, lots of circulating energy, the guy that used to teach me also did taoist Yoga (Dao-yin) we used to do this before we sat proper, for use of a bad term, un-knots the body and mind, very good stuff, the same also, am not trapped by the thought of enlightenment, a kind of shrugg of the shoulders sort of reaction, a neither wanting nor not wanting, just resting the mind on the breath

[svadhyaya]

I had not heard of zazen before coming to this forum, but from what I can tell it is a combination of asana, pranayama and dharana to give it the names I relate to. That is, posture, control of breath and concentration, with Dhyana, or Absorbtion as the goal. From what I have read the only difference is the lack of multiple asana' and the position of the hands.

I first started looking into MA online after reading about the parallels of Zen to Raja Yoga and now I am determined to experience Dhyana as a form of expression, rather than a form of deprivation if you see what I mean.

[Omicron]

I must admit, I was very skeptical of the whole meditation thing before I actually tried it. In Shorinji Kempo, we practice meditation at the beginning of every class, and I really find that it helps me to concentrate on what I'm supposed to be working on, and focus only on what is happening in the dojo.

[chapskins]

I had not heard of zazen before coming to this forum, but from what I can tell it is a combination of asana, pranayama and dharana to give it the names I relate to. That is, posture, control of breath and concentration, with Dhyana, or Absorbtion as the goal. From what I have read the only difference is the lack of multiple asana' and the position of the hands.



Yoga is very very old, I'm not up on the type of Yoga that you practice, I would be interested to know some more, The Taoist Yoga that i have been taught is used to relax both mind and body before sitting to bring the mind back, to invigourate the internal energy (Chi) yoggies use the term Pranna, is that the right term? and stimulate different organs within the body and to remove any stale Chi within them.

As i was saying the Taoist stuff is very involved, their's also stuff like The Healing Sounds, Chi gong, not enough time in the day, I find Zen much more straight forward, simple, just sitting, just aware of the breath, you can sit with eyes shut or eyes just slightly open, letting in a little light, see what you feel is comfortable for you

[chapskins]

I must admit, I was very skeptical of the whole meditation thing before I actually tried it. In Shorinji Kempo, we practice meditation at the beginning of every class, and I really find that it helps me to concentrate on what I'm supposed to be working on, and focus only on what is happening in the dojo.


Myself too, was a bit strange at first but thought hey in for a penny in for a pound, cant do any harm, it can never be a bad thing to have an aware mind, if the mind is steady it's very reseptive and open, what sort of meditation is it that you practice, is it a standing or a sitting type of meditation?

[svadhyaya]

Yes, prana is equivalent to Qi if I understand it correctly, the wind which blows within the body, that is subdued by the repetitive practice of breath control. The purpose in Raja yoga though is to remove the effects of prana from the mind, rather than control it to achieve a physical effect or to unblock chakras (as in Tantric yoga). Much like martial arts it seems, the repetitive practice eventually becomes motor memory and no longer requires mind to control it.

In Taoist yoga do you control the breath, or just observe? Pranayama involves many forms of regulated breathing and encourages the practitioner to breath in very long cycles, sometimes more than a minute for each cycle (such as breath in for 20 secs, hold for 20 secs, out for 10 secs, hold for 10 secs) thereby reducing the heart rate and metabolism to further seperate the feelings of body from the mind.

[Omicron]

Myself too, was a bit strange at first but thought hey in for a penny in for a pound, cant do any harm, it can never be a bad thing to have an aware mind, if the mind is steady it's very reseptive and open, what sort of meditation is it that you practice, is it a standing or a sitting type of meditation?
We practice zazen meditation in Shorinji Kempo, so it's sitting with our hands clasped in our laps. At first it was difficult for me to get the correct posture, but now I find it comes more naturally and I am able to concentrate more on focusing my mind.

[chapskins]

[QUOTE=svadhyaya

In Taoist yoga do you control the breath, or just observe? [/QUOTE]


Yes and no, at first you just observe it filling up the lower belly, two fingers bellow the navel (called the tan tein) may have spelt it wrong, and just slightly inside you become aware of a warm felling, Qi, but in some cases some may not get this feeling, after some time of doing this type of practice you can then move on to the small orbit, moving that warm sensation of Qi up the spine, over the head and down the front back to the belly, the Qi moves though gates in the body, sometimes these may be blocked and it takes sometime for the Qi to move through, their is also a grand orbit, I did follow what my teacher was telling me but to be very honest it seemed to me like a lot of interfearing, energy moves of it's own, does it's own thing, i totally understand how helpfull this circulating of energy can be for cultivation(using a Taoist term) but for me, not that important, a big sorry, not being disrespectfull to ant Taoist out their, for me, just being aware of the breath filling the belly up, resting the mind on the breath is enough, less involvment, less doing.

What i have said before is only a personal opinion and that only, it's not ment to put anyone off, just what i have experienced, the teacher that i mention is a fully ordained preist, the real mackoy, has a vast knowlage of the Taoist teachings and is a very good teacher, just that for me simpicity and non interfearance go hand in hand.

[chapskins]

but now I find it comes more naturally and I am able to concentrate more on focusing my mind.


:) ,that sounds really interesting, I used to do Tai Chi for quiet at time and at the begining of the lesson we used to do standing Qi Gong, focusing on the breath in the lower belly, found it very absorbing which then led me onto Zazen, at the time i could not find a teacher so some good friends and i would sit together, do you sit with any one else?

[chapskins]

The Practice of Zazen is the Secret of Zen

Zazen is a daily practice. Not easy, not difficult. But very effective in expanding consciousness and developing intuition. And not only does zazen release great energy, it is the posture of awakening.

While practicing, do not seek to gain anything. Without object, only concentrate on the posture, the breathing and the attitude of mind.

The Posture

Seated on the zafu (traditional, round, kapok-stuffed cushion), the legs are crossed in a lotus or half-lotus position, or behind you in seiza (kneeling posture). The knees must press the floor, forming a stable, three-point posture with the buttocks on the zafu.

The pelvis is tilted forward so the abdomen falls down naturally. There should be no obstruction or constriction of the abdomen, such as a belt or tight trousers. The spinal column is arched in the lower lumbar region, and the head presses the sky, stretching out the backbone.

The upper breast bone is raised, naturally throwing back the shoulders and neck. The face is perpendicular to the floor, and the nape of the neck stretched up. The nose is on the same plane as the navel. The ears are on the same plane as the shoulders. The shoulders are relaxed, the abdomen is relaxed.

The mouth is closed--the breathing is through the nose--but the jaw is relaxed. The tip of the tongue rests on the palette, just at the top of the upper front teeth. The eyes are open, looking down at a forty-five degree angle. The gaze is steady, at rest, but not focused on anything.

The lower forearms rest on the upper thighs against the lower abdomen, the palms of the hands facing up. The fingers of the left hand rest on the fingers of the right hand. The tips of the thumbs lightly touch over the middle of the hands, neither "falling like a valley" nor "rising like a mountain."

Once you are in this stable, vertical position, inhale and exhale slowly and deeply. Your posture is now vertical and balanced. Remain in this posture during zazen without moving.

Zazen means "to touch the cosmos through one single body, our body. All existences and myself are one single body." Master Dogen wrote in the Fukanzazengi: "The zazen I speak of is not learning how to meditate. It is nothing other than the way to peace and happiness, the practice-realization of perfect awakening. Once you have seized its heart, you are like a dragon when he enters the water, like a tiger when he enters the mountain."

At the end of zazen, signaled by one strike of the bell, raise the hands and do gassho (without bending over), then place the closed fists, thumbs inside, on the lower thighs. Stretch your torso and head down over the right thigh, then straighten up, and bend over the left thigh a bit then straighten up. Repeat this two or three times, each time bending over a bit more, until you head touches your knees. Get up carefully and push your zafu back into shape.

The Breathing

Zen breathing plays a primary role. The point of the breathing is above all to establish a slow, strong and natural rhythm.

Concentrate primarily on the exhalation, which should be calm, long and deep. During the exhalation exert a free, relaxed, expanding downward pressure on the lower internal organs, without pulling the abdomen in.

The inhalation should be natural, automatic, spontaneous. Since the lungs are mostly empty, they quickly fill with air again.

The concentration on the exhalation creates great energy in the lower abdominal region. The body's energy center is not in the head or upper body but in the major nerve groups located from the solar plexus to the lower abdomen. All martial arts are traditionally based on this breathing. Strong action of the body-mind takes place during the exhalation. During inhalation, a person is weakest and most vulnerable.

Air contains the energy of the universal life force and is received by our lungs and each cell in our body. It is very important to develop our breathing. Usually we breathe maybe fifteen times a minute in a shallow way, using only a small part of the lung's capacity. Deep complete Zen breathing is not just localized at the level of the thoracic cage or the diaphragm, but affects the lower abdominal organs, exerting a strong massage on the internal organs and stimulating the circulation of blood and other fluids in the body.

By the regular practice of zazen this breathing, little by little, becomes habitual in our daily life and during sleep. The more you are receptive to the universal life force through Zen breathing in zazen, the more your energy increases.

Attitude of Mind

The correct attitude of mind comes naturally from a deep concentration during zazen on the posture and the breathing.

During zazen the conscious flow of thought from the cerebral cortex is greatly diminished and the thinking brain becomes calm and cool. Blood flows toward the deeper layers of the brain, the thalamus and the hypo-thalamus, and this body-brain becomes more active and developed. The nervous system becomes relaxed while our deeper brain becomes more active. Receptive and attentive in every cell of the body, you learns to think with the body, unconsciously.

During zazen, thoughts, conscious and subconscious, naturally and continuously rise to the surface of our mind. Don't try to stop these thoughts from arising. But at the same time, don't get involved with the thoughts or let them take you away from concentration on posture and breathing. Just let the thoughts pass, like clouds in the sky, neither opposing them nor attaching to them. Shadows pass and vanish. Images arise from the subconscious, then disappear. The brain becomes deeply calm. One arrives at the deep unconscious, beyond thought, to hishiryo consciousness, true purity.

Hishiryo is the unconscious of Zen--universal mind. In Japanese, shiryo is thinking, fushiryo non-thinking. But hishiryo is absolute thinking, beyond thinking and non-thinking. Beyond categories, opposites, contradictions. Beyond all problems of personal consciousness. Our original nature, Buddha nature, the Cosmic unconscious.

When the mind empties and the intellect is calm, peaceful, at rest, nothing obstructs the deep intuitive and unlimited life force that springs up from the depths of our being, that which precedes all thought, the eternal flow of the activity of the Cosmos. Practicing zazen, sitting concentration, without object or goal, you can experience hishiryo and understand mushotoku, the secret and essence of Zen. But this understanding must be beyond that of common sense or intellectual logic. It is direct perception, here and now.

Mushotoku is the attitude of non-profit, of not wanting to gain anything for yourself. It is essential to true Zen practice. Giving without expecting to receive, abandoning everything without fear of losing, observing oneself.

[chapskins]

There are different schools of meditation, different methods and systems. There are systems which say “Watch the movement of your big toe, watch it, watch it, watch it”; there are other systems which advocate sitting in a certain posture, breathing regularly or practising awareness. All this is utterly mechanical. Another method gives you a certain word and tells you that if you go on repeating it you will have some extraordinary transcendental experience. This is sheer nonsense. It is a form of self-hypnosis. By repeating Amen or Om or Coca-Cola indefinitely you will obviously have a certain experience because by repetition the mind becomes quiet. It is a well known phenomenon which has been practised for thousands of years in India —Mantra Yoga it is called. By repetition you can induce the mind to be gentle and soft but it is still a petty, shoddy, little mind. You might as well put a piece of stick you have picked up in the garden on the mantelpiece and give it a flower every day. In a month you will be worshipping it and not to put a flower in front of it will become a sin. Meditation is not following any system; it is not constant repetition and imitation. Meditation is not concentration. It is one of the favourite gambits of some teachers of meditation to insist on their pupils learning concentration —that is, fixing the mind on one thought and driving out all other thoughts. This is a most stupid, ugly thing, which any schoolboy can do because he is forced to. It means that all the time you are having a battle between the insistence that you must concentrate on the one hand and your mind on the other which wanders away to all sorts of other things, whereas you should be attentive to every movement of the mind wherever it wanders. When your mind wanders off it means you are interested in something else.

Meditation demands an astonishingly alert mind; meditation is the understanding of the totality of life in which every form of fragmentation has ceased. Meditation is not control of thought, for when thought is controlled it breeds conflict in the mind, but when you understand the structure and origin of thought, which we have already been into, then thought will not interfere. That very understanding of the structure of thinking is its own discipline which is meditation.

Meditation is to be aware of every thought and of every feeling, never to say it is right or wrong but just to watch it and move with it. In that watching you begin to understand the whole movement of thought and feeling. And out of this awareness comes silence. Silence put together by thought is stagnation, is dead, but the silence that comes when thought has understood its own beginning, the nature of itself, understood how all thought is never free but always old —this silence is meditation in which the meditator is entirely absent, for the mind has emptied itself of the past.

If you have read this book for a whole hour attentively, that is meditation. If you have merely taken away a few words and gathered a few ideas to think about later, then it is no longer meditation. Meditation is a state of mind which looks at everything with complete attention, totally, not just parts of it. And no one can teach you how to be attentive. If any system teaches you how to be attentive, then you are attentive to the system and that is not attention. Meditation is one of the greatest arts in life —perhaps the greatest, and one cannot possibly learn it from anybody, that is the beauty of it. It has no technique and therefore no authority. When you learn about yourself, watch yourself, watch the way you walk, how you eat, what you say, the gossip, the hate, the jealousy —if you are aware of all that in yourself, without any choice, that is part of meditation.

So meditation can take place when you are sitting in a bus or walking in the woods full of light and shadows, or listening to the singing of birds or looking at the face of your wife or child.

In the understanding of meditation there is love, and love is not the product of systems, of habits, of following a method. Love cannot be cultivated by thought. Love can perhaps come into being when there is complete silence, a silence in which the meditator is entirely absent; and the mind can be silent only when it understands its own movement as thought and feeling. To understand this movement of thought and feeling there can be no condemnation in observing it. To observe in such a way is the discipline, and that kind of discipline is fluid, free, not the discipline of conformity.

[svadhyaya]

Krishnamurti's philosophy sounds a lot like that of Bruce Lee in that method itself 'mechanises' the process, limiting it rather than freeing it. It's worth noting though that they both said that after they had trained and mastered their respective methodical traditions.

[chapskins]

It's very true what you say Svadhyaya, and it's a point that i would also have to agree on, firstly their are many methods and ways but thats all they are, systems of approach i suppose, Lao Tzu said, "the way that can be way'd is not the eternal way, the words can be looked at and applied to both method and where that practice of method leads to, I do find that he cuts to the chase, is very clear, pust a smile on my face when i read his words :)

[gerard]

Hi, the real meditation is the one you do after. It has more a powerful effect meditating 15 h per day (assuming that you sleep 8 and meditate 1 h) than just one.

Regards.

[chapskins]

Hi, the real meditation is the one you do after. It has more a powerful effect meditating 15 h per day (assuming that you sleep 8 and meditate 1 h) than just one.

Regards.


I can see the point that you are making, meditation is in it's self giving yourself qiet time, practice can be a poor word to use, hey, what are we practicing, this is the real deal not a test run, you know? but again a poor word that it may be, I will use the term, practice, regular time sitting, or standing, or laying on the floor, sitting on a chair, whatever is most comfortable can lead to what you talk of.

The point that you make comes through meditation practice, is a natural affect of, people may think that just sitting for a while, say an hour or so a day will fix things, all nice and dandy, like going to the church, saying prayers once a week, then during the week being the most un-wholy person imaginable, what your talking of is the awakening of the Buddha seed, the more water that is sprinkled on the seed, the more the seed will grow, a mere beginer can obtain full illumination, but so could a man or women in their eighties, maybe some may never, no big deal, their is no end game, just the pressent, enlightenment comes, enlightenment goes, but as you say, someone who is awake for 15 hours a day would be a joyous person who could and would bring joy to others..................

[Mo Lung]

I practiced Raja Yoga in my youth and it gave me a whole new perspective on life. It changed me from being extremely angry to just mildly annoyed

:D

LOL! This comment is gold! Pure, unadulterated honesty. ;)

[simonlarcombe]

I practice meditation everyday.

I practice sitting meditation some days. I always meditate lying down before I sleep. I "practice" zazen and walking meditation with a group once a week. I also try to bring myself back to the present constantly throughout the day, when walking, sitting, washing up etc. Occasionaly I meditate on an object.

I find meditation difficult.... remember you said this to me Chapskins "...experts at interfering" lol, I didn't get it straight away, but I do now.

When my mind wanders I concentrate on my breath, bring myself back to the present. At the moment I'm trying to stop telling myself off for it :) The stages you go through are actually quite amusing.

It's getting easier now. I slipped with my practice for a couple of weeks, about 2 months ago. At that point I could meditate for about 1 hour without to much hassle. After a month and a half of getting back into it, I still haven't got back to the same point....good lesson learnt there!

I enjoy my practice, very peaceful.

[chapskins]

When my mind wanders I concentrate on my breath, bring myself back to the present. At the moment I'm trying to stop telling myself off for it :) The stages you go through are actually quite amusing.
.


How are you, hope your well, the mind can get up to all sorts of funny stuff, I remember a time when at a class i used to goto, a Taoist meditation class, the teacher at the end of the sitting used to go around the class and ask, "any questions from anyone" then h'ed go around one by one and ask, you Jim, anything to say? a shrug of the shoulders came the reply, you Tony, anything? a simple smile comes back as the reply, Steve, anything? err, yeh actually, when I was sitting I imagined myself getting up from where I was, opening the door, putting my trainers on, opening the front door and leaving,after a short pause, hhhhmmmm, the teacher said running his fingers through his beard, "so steve,why are you still here then?" asked the teacher, everyone started to laugh, in the end it got out of hand, tears where streaming down everyones faces,it got really silly in the end.

Advanced day dreaming, the commentator wants to flip off on all sorts of wild and outragous fantasys, like you say, come back to the breath, is funny stuff though, like a wild galloping horse sometimes.

You remind me of a conversation I had recently with an old friend, he mentioned about the self, ego as if it was something to be disliked, i said to him that through awareness comes a transformation of self, instead of treating self like a bad thing, like a bad teenager, look at it like this, gradually with awareness comes a stripping back of the layers that we think of as self and with that stripping back their is a freedom, at ease, true happyness, joy, thier is still self pressent but it does change and their is a trasformation, He had to agree as he knows this of himself, instead of frowning comes a smile......... :)

[simonlarcombe]

I'm fine, thanks. Hope you are too!

Very good advise. I found that for a while "telling myself off" worked very well but now it's just another barrier to break....and it's getting better.

A couple of days ago, a good friend of mine asked me "where would you like to be in 10 years", I said "hopefully in exactly the same place as I am now", she then decided to play devils advocate with me and started asking "don't you think that's it's wrong just to sit there and let everything go over your head. A lot of people would say you are kidding yourself. What about goals and desires." etc. All the usual stuff hey!

What she really wanted to know was if this attitude affected me in any way. Well of course it does, I'm not bullet-proof. But when you learn to start looking at yourself without judgement you can use this type of thing to your advantage.

[chapskins]

A couple of days ago, a good friend of mine asked me "where would you like to be in 10 years", I said "hopefully in exactly the same place as I am now", she then decided to play devils advocate with me and started asking "don't you think that's it's wrong just to sit there and let everything go over your head. A lot of people would say you are kidding yourself. What about goals and desires." etc. All the usual stuff hey!



I'm really well thanks, It's good to hear from you again, sounds all so familiar, I mentioned to someone at work that i came very close to becoming a monk in Northern India, before i knew it practicaly everyone that i came across was like, hey man your that weird monk bloke, om........om.......om.......... then before long i had a load of christian bods on the same firm going along the lines of, so what do you Buddhist blokes think about God, whats Heaven like, bet you can't answer that one, you Buddhist, arry chrishna types are all the same, want putting down, seriously, someone actually said that to me, came from just mentioning about becoming a monk, pretty full on stuff.

That teacher i spoke of, the Taoist one, he said something to me that really struck a chord, he said "you do not have to justify you existance to anyone" i suppose people like to knock things, poo poo them, I'm not really that bothred anymore by what people may think,dont rise to the bait, I dont feel like I have to explain myself to anyone, it proberly comes down to this, people just cant understand the point of sitting, standing ect and doing nothing, actually i'll put that another way, doing less, we all like to fill our beings up to the point of overflow, but letting the dust settle, people are like, nahh, you might as well kill yaself and have done with it, seems pointless, a right waste of time, the only answer that i think is worth giving is try it for yourself, dont just knock what you do not know.

It's funny what you mention about telling yourself off, I can remember back to a point when I had this crazy notion that i was going to sit in a certain forest one night and not stop meditating till Enlightenment came, makes me laugh now just thinking about it, allways had this thing about constantly trying to throtle the life out of my what i veiwed as "THE EGO" like it was a thing to be disliked, now i find that that veiw has change to that of what i previously mentioned, transormation ect.

[simonlarcombe]

Honestly, I find it amusing ... it's quite nice to see that people stick so strongly to the way they "feel", good for them - I say :)

Everyone, everyone, no matter what they say, lives according to his or her belief *, and everyone wants to be right, all the time! Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

If you believe that the beginning of you is when you are born, that the purpose of your life is to be successful (whether that be fame, fortune or both) and that when you die that's it... "an island of conciousness wrapped up in a bag of skin" ...Good Luck To You! This is your life, this is how it is, live it and enjoy it :)

If you believe that you were left by an alien spaceship 3000 years ago in crysalis form and that your sole purpose in life is to find an object called the emerald artichoke, which upon finding you will return to your mothership and your family ...Good Luck To You! This is your life, this is how it is, live and enjoy it :) and good luck with your search, I'm sure it will be an adventure!

Everyone has their own path.


* We'll leave the exception of the possibility of ultimate knowledge out of the equation.

[chapskins]

Honestly, I find it amusing ... it's quite nice to see that people stick so strongly to the way they "feel", good for them - I say :)


Everyone has their own path.


* We'll leave the exception of the possibility of ultimate knowledge out of the equation.


:D


Just found this on the interweb, you know that mention of experts mind that I made, it was my own but this hits the nail on the head, think the sentence Beginers mind is profound.


For Zen students the most important thing is not to be dualistic. Our 'original mind' includes everything within itself. It is always rich and sufficient within itself. You should not lose your self-sufficient state of mind. This does not mean a closed mind, but actually an empty mind and a ready mind. If your mind is empty, it is always ready for anything; it is open to everything. In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few. ...

"In the beginner's mind there is no thought, 'I have attained something'. All self-centered thoughts limit our vast mind. When we have no thought of achievement, no thought of self, we are true beginners. Then we can really learn something. The beginner's mind is the mind of compassion. When our mind is compassionate, it is boundless. Dogen-zenji, the founder of our school, always emphasized how important it is to resume our boundless original mind. Then we are always true to ourselves, in sympathy with all beings, and can actually practice.

"So the most difficult thing is always to keep your beginner's mind. There is no need to have a deep understanding of Zen. Even though you read much Zen literature, you must read each sentence with a fresh mind. You should not say, 'I know what Zen is', or 'I have attained enlightenment'. This is also the real secret of the arts: always be a beginner. Be very very careful about this point. If you start to practice zazen, you will begin to appreciate your beginner's mind. It is the secret of Zen practice


How cool is that? right to point, nice and simple, aaaaaaaaah, empty

[Nevada_MO_Guy]

GOOD MEDITATION CHALLENGE:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=283423&posted=1#post283423