Hapkido Cane

[Stick]

How much of your hapkido training is focused on the cane? http://www.ustkd.com/sword.jpg

[Thomas]

We don't do a lot of cane although it is now one of my pet projects. When I have time I work with the master, practice at home/dojang and check out cane training videos. I would like to be farily competant in a couple of years. Sometimes we get to a seminar with GM Pelligrini (ICHF) or Canemaster Shuey... and those seminars are awesome. Normal cane time in school: not much (not yet).

[wild_pitch]

I can not speak for all Hapkido schools, but at ours it seems that weapons of any kind tend to be for darker belts.

The brown belts start chasing each other with training knives (rubber) then move on to an actual hunting knife, that has a layer or two of friction tape over the blade. No one has gotten there yet but I believe the eventual idea is to work with a live blade.

So far our club has only made one black belt, we have a bit of a different belt system than most but he has starting to work on defenses with a short stick against Sir (our teacher) with a wooden training sword.

Sir does have a cane and we see it in action at the club from time to time but I do not believe he has started teaching any of the students how to use it yet.

[Stick]

We don't do a lot of cane although it is now one of my pet projects. When I have time I work with the master, practice at home/dojang and check out cane training videos. I would like to be farily competant in a couple of years. Sometimes we get to a seminar with GM Pelligrini (ICHF) or Canemaster Shuey... and those seminars are awesome. Normal cane time in school: not much (not yet).

Have you ever heard of Goju Shorei Weapons? I did both Cane Masters with an instructor and GSW with just a video and I found that Cane Masters was a little too flashy and geared more toward touranment kata, etc. A story exists behind the Cane Master GSW's split, you may want to find out what happened. (not from me :D )

[blessed_samurai]

The students start their cane fun about the time they can "handle" the escrima or short sticks. Then we begin our fun with more cane stuff and jo staff. At black belt level it seems is where the emphasis on the cane greatly increases.

[Thomas]

Have you ever heard of Goju Shorei Weapons? I did both Cane Masters with an instructor and GSW with just a video and I found that Cane Masters was a little too flashy and geared more toward touranment kata, etc. A story exists behind the Cane Master GSW's split, you may want to find out what happened. (not from me :D )

I've seen ads for Goju Shorei but haven't checked them out. How are the videos? Are they worth investing in?

My experience with CaneMaster Shuey so far has been very good. I've watch some demonstrations, talked with him and attended a seminar of his (and bought a really nice cane)... so far I have been pleased with the practicality of his teaching (and have yet to be introduced to any sort of kata). I purchased a video but haven't checked it out yet (advanced level)... I have read through the beginner book and it has lotsa of photos and some really good drills... again nothing too flashy that I saw. (As for the split between them, I really don't wnat to know, let alone be involved... I prefer to use all my resources regardless of name!)

The main source of our cane technqiues come from GM Pelligrini's ICHF tapes and what we cover in seminars with him. Oerall I really like the tapes and the techniques seem pretty good... i.e. not overly flashy. I recommend the ICHF (www.ichf.com) tapes.

[Stick]

Shuey was apart of GSW's at one time and it's common knowledge that when he left he wasn't a black belt.

The quaility of video is the same and many of the movements and techniques are the same, but the GSW's also includes knife and fan. I have the first three video tapes and would suggest them to anyone.

As for canes...I have a cane masters dojo cane and it's a very nice cane. After my dojo bought 13 of them at a high cost I decided to make my own. I buy the raw stock canes at a very low cost and finish them myself.

[Thomas]

I also have a basic dojo (throwing) cane from Canemasters and I really like it. Some of the other canes can get pricey (I paid $25 for mine), but we don't need very many in our dojang.

Like I said, I really hadn't heard any of the back stories about GM Shuey and Goju Shorei and I don't think it would change my opinion of the man or his system. I know that he holds rank certification from many reputable organizations, he is held in high regard by my GM (GM Pelligrini), by my master and by GM Shuey's other students.

In the end, what impresses me most is that he is an excellent teacher and his techniques work. From my experience, based on classes/seminars with GM Shuey, from demonstartions and from his reference videos/books, I would highly recommned his material for anyone who wants to learn more about the cane.

[Stick]

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to detract from GM Shuey at all, just letting you know about other styles and systems.

[Thomas]

I understand and appreciate it... and actually I was just going through a recent issue of Black Belt magazine looking for the Goju Shorei ads! Thanks for the recommend! Good training!

[American HKD]

Greetings,

The cane that Hapkido is known for with the curved 90 degree handle was mainly developed by Ji Han Jae. The cane is a great weapon and was rarely used in a flashy way. Someone who needed the aid of a cane would most likey not be able to do flashy or acrobatic moves.

Hapkido cane techniques are very similarly to a Hanbo or Half Staff. The cane can be used to Block, strike, thrust, lock, and throw your opponent.

Hapkido has about 100 basic cane techniques and many more variations.

Most cane tech. in other systems we see today are borrowed from HKD including Mark Shuey of Canemasters and Goju Shorei.

The Canemasters cane with the sharpen point at the handle and the fluted shaft is an illegal weapon to carry because it's designed as a combat weapon. If one ever used that type of cane in the street it would be hard to talk your way out of why you have it!

The ordinary walking cane is of course is legal to carry and HKD techniques were developed around that type of cane.

I almost forgot to mention most traditional HKD Kwans teach cane at 3rd or 4th Dan after mastering other stick/staff basics.

Hapki,

Stuart Rosenberg
5th Dan Sin Moo Hapkido

[Stick]

Anyone study both hapkido and either goju shorei or cane masters and does hapkido have as much detailed technique as school that focus just on the cane? I have the GJS tapes, a lot of stuff is covered on them, they really are a seperate system from what I can tell...

[American HKD]

Anyone study both hapkido and either goju shorei or cane masters and does hapkido have as much detailed technique as school that focus just on the cane? I have the GJS tapes, a lot of stuff is covered on them, they really are a seperate system from what I can tell...
Dear Stick,

I just want to clarify some points for you.

There's no seperate system of Cane only in Hapkido. The cane is a one a few weapons taught in the HKD system.

Canemasters just borrowed mainly from HKD cane techniques and "called it a stand alone cane system". Great Marketing! Goju Shorei is doing the same type of thing!

Mind you any good HKD Master can teach you the same thing as CM, GJS, etc. The only differance is that HKD cane is taught at 2nd, 3rd, 4th Dan in most HKD systems after completing empty hands and other basics.

Keep in mind Master Shuey although very good with the cane is not out of the ordinary in the HKD world. A dime a dozen so to speak.

To answer your question more directly right now. Many of the traditional Hapkido Kwans have over 350 cane techniques that would take years to master.

So what I'm saying bottom line is Canemasters or Goju Shorei is good for learning CANE outside of the HKD system or other systems that dont offer cane as part of thier curriculum, but as supplements only they're not complete MA systems as Kali Escrima etc.

Hapki

Stuart Rosenberg
5th Dan Hapkido

[Stick]

Interesting...I didn't realize Hapkido had a dozen or more forms just for the cane within it's system. I also didn't know hapkido included the 12 strike pattern and 16 block pattern of arnis...

From what I've seen, Goju Shorei and Cane Masters use the cane in a very different manner, the technique may look simliar on the outside but they're very different. So much so I'd have to say the are a legit system outside of hapkido...everything from gripping the cane to what you're striking seems to be different.

stick

[American HKD]

Dear Stick

It's true HKD doesn't have Traditional Hyungs but we do have a 7 and 10 pattern forms for strikes and blocks. Thats' how Ji Han Jae teachs and the KHF too.

I know Goju Shorie techs include more Linear than type moves then HKD cane but they're very much like traditional bo or Hanbo (half Staff) techniques which HKD has. I mentioned this in my 1st post in this thread.

Really a block is a block a strike a strike no matter what type of pattern you put them in. I also studied Kali for a couple years under some of the best Instructors in the world and there's more of a differance in Kali because of the size and shape of the stick than the cane allows.

Also in Kali most systems have the same strikes some call it a #1 other a #5 but the same tech in acuallity.

So all I'm saying is it's not exactly the same but also not that far away. There are only so many way to move.

Hapki,

Stuart Rosenberg
5th Dan Hapkido

[Thomas]

This thread has been quiet for a while, but I have an update. I finally took a look at the first half of my Canemaster's Advanced video... it's really quite good. The feel is a bit different from the ICHF tapes and I think the techniques will complement each other very well. The Canemaster tape also has some interesting aspects of targeting and ways of striking with the cane.

[Kosh]

Our DukMoo style of Hapkido has alot of weapons techniques added to it. Thomas, do you remember the picture i showed you of GM Kim Duk In? In his younger days he specialised in weapons techniques (and kicking too) taught to him by his father / uncle (cant remember) who was a general and weapons specialist. GM Kim Duk In brought the techniques into the syllabus when he devised DukMoo.

[Thomas]

That sounds really neat... I'd love to get into some of that!

[Kosh]

I think there are some vids on our durham site


www.dur.ac.uk/hapkido.club

[Nevada_MO_Guy]

Hello all,

I think that the cane and walking stick are outstanding weapon opportunities. I am currently practicing with the Dan Bong (Short stick).

The question I have is; if using the cane makes you look like an easier target?

[Thomas]

The question I have is; if using the cane makes you look like an easier target?

Interesting idea and something that must be considered.

When I carry my cane, I do NOT hobble or limp around like I "need" the cane (although I would if I had to). I carry my cane about at the middle of the shaft with the crook facing forward. I walk erect and look around. The cane is ready to use and should discourage potential attackers.

Now, what is interesting is when people that know me see me with my cane. They always ask if I have hurt myself or whatever... because I have a "cane"... and this is when I am not using it for support at all!

So, to answer your question: "I hope not"... but I'd rather have my cane with me than not.

[Nevada_MO_Guy]

When I carry my cane, I do NOT hobble or limp around like I "need" the cane (although I would if I had to). I carry my cane about at the middle of the shaft with the crook facing forward. I walk erect and look around. The cane is ready to use and should discourage potential attackers.
.

Thanks for the answer.

I never even considered carrying the cane in a "stand by" way. I just assumed that if you wanted to carry a cane that you would have to use it or at least go through the motions of using it.

I sometimes travel to Costa Rica. Beautiful place, pushy people but that is just the culture.
I've been approached by 5 guys at a time....I've always maintained a calm exterior with a straight posture.
I am wondering if in that situation having the cane along would have been the turning point in having them back down from the "crazy american"...however, I agree with you.....I would rather have a chunk of hardwood between me and them.

[Thomas]

Of course, even though I carry my cane in a "ready" way, I am always prepared to explain to a police officer why I carry it! (e.g. "I hurt my ankle a bit ago in the gym and I just need the cane to help get out of chairs or go up stairs")

I carry my cane quite often, especially on the way to class and I have yet to be stopped or looked at funny. People assume (usually) that if you have a cane, you must need it for something!

[BackFistMonkey]

I am ordering the Standard Combat Cane (http://canemasters.com/full_dim.html) tonight * bounces happily * I was wondering at this point in time umm which video series all of you informed people think would be more condusive to some one who has never used a short staff or a crooked weapon before ( unless the kama counts but for some reason I dont think the principles are the same ) .

The only weapon/tool I have used similar to the cane at all is the escrima ,the boken , and the shinai , none which I think would carry over well .

The cane isnt taught by anyone in the Dojang I go to ... * pouts * but I am picking up alot of katana work * blinks * which I was thinking ... maybe isnt a staple of Hapkido but is fun never the less . :)


oh yeah , final notes :

What type of wood should I order the cane in ?

Which videos series for a total cane newbie ?

and of course ,
I love the club site Kosh ! thanks for sharing !

[iron_ox]

I am ordering the Standard Combat Cane (http://canemasters.com/full_dim.html) tonight * bounces happily * I was wondering at this point in time umm which video series all of you informed people think would be more condusive to some one who has never used a short staff or a crooked weapon before ( unless the kama counts but for some reason I dont think the principles are the same ) .

The only weapon/tool I have used similar to the cane at all is the escrima ,the boken , and the shinai , none which I think would carry over well .

The cane isnt taught by anyone in the Dojang I go to ... * pouts * but I am picking up alot of katana work * blinks * which I was thinking ... maybe isnt a staple of Hapkido but is fun never the less . :)


oh yeah , final notes :

What type of wood should I order the cane in ?

Which videos series for a total cane newbie ?

and of course ,
I love the club site Kosh ! thanks for sharing !

Hello BFM,

If you are in Illinois, there are a few clubs that teach cane as a weapon. THis is vastly superior than any video series...

[BackFistMonkey]

Ok I went ahead and ordered the cane ( standard combat in oak ) but with out any videos .

If you are in Illinois, there are a few clubs that teach cane as a weapon. THis is vastly superior than any video series...

One of the problems of being poor with a dead car is that you cant travel to train ... or I would be doing something besides begging advice on which freaking instructional video :bang: :bang: :bang: * deep breath *
:cry:

but on the bright side I will have a new toy in 3-4 weeks :Angel: :love: :Angel: :)

Peace , :love: , & Hippy Stuff

Back Fist Monkey

[Thomas]

If you are interested in cane videos, check out the Combat Hapkido set (www.ichf.com). The tapes are pretty easy to get in to and the technqiues are good. You will need a partner to work with and take your time doing them. Having a qualified instructor is the best way though.

The Canemaster tapes are good as well and have more drills, warm ups, striking info, and such than the Combat Hapkido ones. Canemasters also has some good books available.

[BackFistMonkey]

I have recieved many "OH that will be fun to learn !" volunteers from my Dojang to help with the learning proccess ... maybe just maybe I can get some hooked and get a seminar going with a couple other MA schools . Alot of the volunterrs have more exp. than I do in grappling M.A. ( I used to only trap , strike & kick with very very little grappling ) and in various stick fighting methods , like the jo-staff and escrema , while I have been focusing on sharp pointy things so far .

So just to be clear I have NO intention on trying to learn a weapon from a video with random victims ... I mean ... umm partners ... and alot of the people I will be learning with already have a better grasp of using weapons in ways besides poking , beating and cutting . While I didnt make it to the louiville ky seminar on the sixth of november( did anyone here go ? ) I will be going to the next one that is in reasonable a distance .

So untill next time

Peace, :love:, and Hippy Stuff

Back Fist Monkey

[BackFistMonkey]

My Standard combat cane arrived 2 weeks earlier than expected . While it far exceded my expectations in funtionality* it wasnt quite as "pretty " as I had hoped . But then again give it few months to absorb the oils from my hands and a couple treatments of 500 grit then 1500 grit with a dash of mineral oil will fix the very very minor tooling marks .

I havent put it down in 6 hours :) . I am chewing at the bit to start some training with it . My Grand Master will be in town next week I should be able get him to show me the basic strikes and blocks . Untill then .. it seems to respond kinda like a escreema ( more so than I thought ) so I will simply be famliliarizing myself with my new wooden friend with the 12 strike pattern I know and maybe some Kemdo .

Sorry to "thread whore " but I am just really excited about my new cane .

* sighs *

so if anyone has anything to share with me ( and the rest of MAP ) I would appreciate it .

So untill next time

Peace :love: and Hippy Stuff

Back Fist Monkey


* the cane is freaking TOUGH !!!!! I have kicked it , hit a tree with it , balanced on the crook with my whole body weight on it with the rubber stopper on the floor with no flex , dented my escreema sticks , and tripped a waitress by accident when it slid off the back of a chair ... nothing , not a single mark on the cane ..