The limits of humans...

[Noib Da Mutt]

what are they? How are they defined? Is it possible to reach them?





Personally I believe a human is limited only by the growth of their spiritual selves, individuals that are more spiritually developed tend to be more inclined to unlock more of their potential than others... I see it as a simply convertian and efficient use of energy...

[texas doc]

i am not sure if this is of any help to your questions, but a very old pathologist used to say this words to me: DO NOT WORRY ABOUT YOUR LIMITS, PURSUE YOUR GOALS.
he was talking about medical research, but sometimes "tout se tient".

[CKava]

Human beings are physically limited by their bodies. Your mental abilities can have a certain impact on your body but basically at the end of the day you wont be able to make yourself fly just by thinking it (well actually you might but its only going to occur in your imagination). That said a human is not simply a list of physical attributes Stephen Hawking is a good example of how a person need not just curl up and die even if they have incredible physical limitations.

Im not sure exactly what your question is asking if its about evolving into higher beings and astrally projecting and that kind of stuff then I would have to say that while I think alot of people limit themselves by thinking things can't be done without ever trying I still think most of the tales of that kind of stuff and the people who believe it are more brainwashed than your average person. New agey wishy washy nonsense is all too common these days...

[Nrv4evr]

chi training and martial arts speaks for themselves. there are people who can actually use telekinesis, even though it is "impossible." i've seen chi masters do insane things, like pull trucks with their jewels, and walk on suspended paper without breaking it. most minds are limited by their sensory output, but the ones who can break from those boundaries have whole new world to explore.

[Tika]

Did you see this watching anime?:)

(Dont get mad at me and call me closed minded, just making a bad joke from Nrv4evr title thing)

[Grifter]

chi training and martial arts speaks for themselves. there are people who can actually use telekinesis, even though it is "impossible." i've seen chi masters do insane things, like pull trucks with their jewels, and walk on suspended paper without breaking it. most minds are limited by their sensory output, but the ones who can break from those boundaries have whole new world to explore.




I assume youve seen these task preformed in person??



And the pulling stuff with your junk?? Why did you watch that?? Anyway Ive seen people on tv pull trains and crap with there teeth. They were said "chi masters" nothing more than strong men.

[Scarlet Mist]

Here we go again. Scarlet Mist believes in physics. If your weight is higher than the tensillary strength of the paper you're attempting to walk on, you will break it. People cannot fly - that's why they invented the airplane. Instead of trying to learn levitation through meditation one should enroll in an engineering school and build a better airlplane. Trying hard and pushing yourself will allow you to achieve things few people achieve does not change the fact that Human beings have limits, there is very little that one can do to change this.
Your mind is more powerful than your body but meditation does only so much. It cannot change your internal systems so you don't need air, but working the brain will allow you to build a space station that lets people breathe in space.

[Tika]

Tika1980 agrees with Scarlet Mist.

[Noib Da Mutt]

I wanna see somebody scientific try to tackle the spiritual aspect that I brought up...

[Grifter]

Your the one with the burden of proof on your shoulders. Why dont you prove your point using science??

[Koryo]

Your whole "conversion and efficient use of energy" idea is fundamentally flawed. For example, say someone invented a 100% efficient coal-fired power station. It turned all of the coal's chemical energy into heat energy and then all of that heat energy into kinetic energy and converted all of that energy into electrical energy (all hypothetically). Does this mean the power plant can fly? Obviously not. Just because the power plant is generating enough energy to enable it to fly (if it were designed as such) and doing so efficiently doesn't mean it actually can. Same with humans, you can go on and on about energy conservation and efficiency and untapped energy etc. but the fact remains that there's only so many ways the human body is physically capable of utilising that energy.

[Nrv4evr]

I assume youve seen these task preformed in person??



And the pulling stuff with your junk?? Why did you watch that?? Anyway Ive seen people on tv pull trains and crap with there teeth. They were said "chi masters" nothing more than strong men.


of course i didn't actually see "their junk", they were shaolin monks proving soemthing, with robes on, it was on guiness world records.

[cjw314]

"Why dont you prove your point using science??"

LOL - "science" is simply a school of basing educated guesses upon educated guesses - and nothing more.

We are unable to fly simply because we don't know how to. or something. I just had to reply due to the attitudes of 'WE CAN'T DO THIS OR THAT' that I've read.

How do you know? Just because you don't know how to or mankind hasn't yet, doesn't mean we won't be able to @ some point. There were a LOT of things that "man would never be able to do" no more than 50 years ago - yet we've done a LOT of those very things.

This is like trying to explain the infinite with a finite set of references.

Scientists need to open their minds. :D

[Grifter]

There were a LOT of things that "man would never be able to do" no more than 50 years ago - yet we've done a LOT of those very things.



Like what?? And remember we are talking about this humans can or cant do like fly.




science is experiements based on educated guesses.

[CKava]

Ok... heres the thing in the morning Jimmy Sunbeam who happens to be quite into healing crystals, telekinesis, flying with his mental power and criticising the rational, scientific approach to life gets up for his breakfast. He goes down and turns on the lights and then has a look at the morning paper, then after he has eaten his cereal he goes and checks MAP for the latest replies to his thread on chi masters flying around using their mental powers. Now theres no substancial proof off his Chi masters theory yet the proof of the success of scientific theories is all around him. If you think that science is so rigid and incapable of understanding things then why not try and power ur computer with ur mental energy... see how far that gets you.

And incidentally I actually am quite in favour of meditation and increasing your overall awareness but I think all this talk of magical powers and the like is why many people regard such activities as pointless and silly.

[Noib Da Mutt]

Your whole "conversion and efficient use of energy" idea is fundamentally flawed. For example, say someone invented a 100% efficient coal-fired power station. It turned all of the coal's chemical energy into heat energy and then all of that heat energy into kinetic energy and converted all of that energy into electrical energy (all hypothetically). Does this mean the power plant can fly? Obviously not. Just because the power plant is generating enough energy to enable it to fly (if it were designed as such) and doing so efficiently doesn't mean it actually can. Same with humans, you can go on and on about energy conservation and efficiency and untapped energy etc. but the fact remains that there's only so many ways the human body is physically capable of utilising that energy.


it's a matter of what the converted energy is focused on...

[Aegis]

it's a matter of what the converted energy is focused on...And how exactly does one focus this energy? Would you mind explaining exactly how this potential energy (I assume this is what you must be referring to in one form or another) is converted into either magnetic or anti-gravitational force in order to achieve telekinesis or levitation?

there are people who can actually use telekinesis, even though it is "impossible." Drop us some names, then we can research it for ourselves.

[cjw314]

power ur computer with ur mental energy... see how far that gets you.



I think, actually, that within a couple years you will be able to just about do that. As it is, they're developing interface devices that will read brain waves.

See what I mean? Things that 'can't be done'.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/SecondOpinion/secondopinion010905.html


What about a Self-Containted Anti-Gravity Device? Would that be considered flying? :grin: And, no, AFAIK they're NOT working on that. . . of course, I'm sure someone is.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I think, actually, that within a couple years you will be able to just about do that. As it is, they're developing interface devices that will read brain waves.That's simply using a direct sub-vocalisation to computer input device, not running the computer purely off your body's own energy rather than off mains electricity.

As to the 'telepathy', notice that they're using technology, rational science, to do something that mysticism has yet to reliably manage.

[ziseez]

ok ill put my input on these, spiritually anything's possible, humans has no limits if they figure out the secrets of the spirit,mind and body.science is just an easier way to get to that point because people around them didnt want to have to work harder to get there with there body.

ever had a feeling that someone is watching you??? yea you most likely had and when you open your eyes someone is watching you. your brain seemed to pick up another persons brain waves. the universe has energy, everything is done by energy, science has found a way to detect almost all energy.

your body can also learn to use this energy for ex. want scientific proof? well ok, you want a human to be nocternal(exscuse my spelling if it is wrong plz)put him in a dark room for around 50 years and he will become it because his body has to adapt someway. through training your body learns to adapt such as lifting weights your body changes by gaining muscles.

anyone need more explainations please ask,glad to help :D

[Noib Da Mutt]

And how exactly does one focus this energy? Would you mind explaining exactly how this potential energy (I assume this is what you must be referring to in one form or another) is converted into either magnetic or anti-gravitational force in order to achieve telekinesis or levitation?




lol, if I could do it, I would tell you how, I promise you I would...

[Vanir]

Grr...another silly thread, with the self confessed superstitious unwravelling the banner of science for their cause.
In a "spiritual" answer to your original question, in best Taoist/various-other-religious tradition (ie. reverse psychology) Noib, I dunno. What are your limitations? Are they acheivable?

Any more conspiracy theories of how the scientific community are obviously concealing plain human capabilities such as those claimed in the thread (telepathy, levitation, dramatic bioelectric generation, etc.)? The trick would be in looking a little more into the science which does exist to become astonished of just how much the average person is unaware. Sometimes it's a matter of looking more closely at the things you've been reading over with glazed eyes for years...
Let's keep in mind that the contemporary definement of terms such as "mysticism" would relate to scientific understandings. The modern day wizard is the Professor from Gilligans Island. Who else can make a shortwave radio from a coconut, three seashells and underwire bra?

[Aegis]

ok ill put my input on these, spiritually anything's possible, humans has no limits if they figure out the secrets of the spirit,mind and body.science is just an easier way to get to that point because people around them didnt want to have to work harder to get there with there body.
Science is not easy. Science is not trying to shortcut what we could do with the mind. Science is using the mind. Science is also about applying new principles to existing technology to make it better. If you hate science this much I suggest you stop using everything science has managed to achieve and see how long you can survive with just your mind to help you. Don't start saying scientists don't work hard, it's a ridiculous statement.


ever had a feeling that someone is watching you??? yea you most likely had and when you open your eyes someone is watching you. your brain seemed to pick up another persons brain waves. the universe has energy, everything is done by energy, science has found a way to detect almost all energy.

Proof? Evidence even? Or is this another one of those claims we're supposed to believe because you use clever sounding words like "waves" and "energy". Besides, I thought you had some major issues with science, in which case why bring up what science can or can't do in this instance? There are some much better explanations for why people think someone is watching them, most of which have more rational explanations than "picking up someone else's brainwaves"

your body can also learn to use this energy for ex. want scientific proof? well ok, you want a human to be nocternal(exscuse my spelling if it is wrong plz)put him in a dark room for around 50 years and he will become it because his body has to adapt someway. through training your body learns to adapt such as lifting weights your body changes by gaining muscles.

anyone need more explainations please ask,glad to help :D
THAT's your proof? Your eyes adapt to see in the dark much quicker than 50 years. It has nothing to do with your body learning to use energy, it's merely your optic never processing less information and therefore being able to separate out details that would be missed in comparison to much brighter shades. If you take 2 very dark colours and put them side by side in a field of bright colours, you probably won't be able to tell the difference. If instead you put them on a totally black background, the difference will become more apparent. Nothing to do with learning to use energy at all.

[Nukite]

Human beings are physically limited by their bodies. Your mental abilities can have a certain impact on your body but basically at the end of the day you wont be able to make yourself fly just by thinking it (well actually you might but its only going to occur in your imagination). That said a human is not simply a list of physical attributes Stephen Hawking is a good example of how a person need not just curl up and die even if they have incredible physical limitations.

Im not sure exactly what your question is asking if its about evolving into higher beings and astrally projecting and that kind of stuff then I would have to say that while I think alot of people limit themselves by thinking things can't be done without ever trying I still think most of the tales of that kind of stuff and the people who believe it are more brainwashed than your average person. New agey wishy washy nonsense is all too common these days...
Tried walking on fire or nails lately, some people still think its wishy washy nonsense, planes are for flying, tales there are video proofs these days about, maybe a cynic who never see other cultures and all that nonsense very sheltered life.

[Vanir]

I think the really tricky thing in physiological capabilities is the very nature of an isolated individual's adaptation. Rather than across eons of evolutionary process, you have one physical body necessarily scavenging changes upon itself due to the limitations of finite resources.
In the dark room, the man eventually goes blind. He developes skin conditions, may develope psychosis and eventually diseases which will kill him in an untimely and likely unpleasant fashion. This is the body's best efforts to adapt, all the way to and from a cellular level.
Which are the compromises I wonder, if any to the ability to fire-walk? Eat glass? Is there a prudent medium which to observe?
One would assume it is in remaining natural, and learning to use that which is already available (presently) to its most effective and efficient manner upon demand.

[CKava]

Tried walking on fire or nails lately, some people still think its wishy washy nonsense, planes are for flying, tales there are video proofs these days about, maybe a cynic who never see other cultures and all that nonsense very sheltered life.Okay walking on fire and or nails is physically possible so theres that mystery solved... Flying is not physically possible (for a human) without aid from sort of machinery or off course you could jump off a cliff I suppose. What video proofs are you talking about? And also your quite right that some people never see other cultures and live very sheltered lives but equally as bad are the people who immediately believe anything so long as its exotic and from a distant or ancient culture, and more often than not these people have never visited any other cultures either.

Also your last post didn't actually make sense could you possibly rephrase it?

[CKava]

I think, actually, that within a couple years you will be able to just about do that. As it is, they're developing interface devices that will read brain waves.I dont see anywhere in that article where it says they are developing an interface to read brain waves? Its more about devices that register the electrical impulses sent along the nervous system by the brain. And even if they were, this is a case of an instrument being inserted into a person which then in turn will need another computer "brain" to interpret the impulse into whatever action is desired. This hardly refutes my suggestion that people cannot just will themselves beyond their physiological limitations. Maybe if it was an article about people microwaving things with their mind alone and walking on water unaided... but it isn't!

What about a Self-Containted Anti-Gravity Device? Would that be considered flying? :grin: And, no, AFAIK they're NOT working on that. . . of course, I'm sure someone is.I'll hold my breath on an anti-gravity device but that aside these examples your giving aren't exactly examples of people using their mental capacities to defeat the limitations of their physiology are they? They are generally about science exploring ways to use the bodies natural actions for specific purposes.

[Noib Da Mutt]

humans that limit themselves will never evolve...


period. Regardless of what is or isn't humanly possible, those with an open mind will always accomplish and unlock more than the skeptic...

[Tika]

Personally, I think being skeptical is good. There is nothing wrong with questioning outlandish claims or believing in say, physics.

On that note, I should say that a long time ago people were pretty steadfast in their belief that the world was flat and they called people who thought otherwise fools. Maybe this is a similar situation. But I still think things like mind control and levitation is a crock :D.

[Nukite]

Here we go again. Scarlet Mist believes in physics. If your weight is higher than the tensillary strength of the paper you're attempting to walk on, you will break it. People cannot fly - that's why they invented the airplane. Instead of trying to learn levitation through meditation one should enroll in an engineering school and build a better airlplane. Trying hard and pushing yourself will allow you to achieve things few people achieve does not change the fact that Human beings have limits, there is very little that one can do to change this.
Your mind is more powerful than your body but meditation does only so much. It cannot change your internal systems so you don't need air, but working the brain will allow you to build a space station that lets people breathe in space.
Meditation will increase your memory and cognition skills, Isaac newton meditate under a tree, enroll on a good meditation course to help your Engineering with better intuition, memory, and so forth, physics needs a mind to make it understood. By observation this changes an experiment, so meditation for clarity of thinking, stop brow beathing and share experience of "mediation" as applied to enginnering and physics. Stress management, original and fresh thinking, not stress out and harping about physics and enginnering, so go to school of the mind. Physics and engineering will benefit with better relationship with colleagues and "people" suppossedly outside of the "so called physics world and engineering world "welcome to the real world" where physics and engineering is the by product of mind.

[Omicron]

Umm yeah....we aren't arguing over the value of meditation here, so I don't really know what that last post was about.
Anyways...
humans that limit themselves will never evolve...
Have you ever even read a biology textbook? Evolution is not a conscious mechanism. Those prehistoric bacteria that eventually gave rise to the plants and animals we know today sure weren't concentrating on how they were going to change themselves for the better.
Regardless of what is or isn't humanly possible, those with an open mind will always accomplish and unlock more than the skeptic...
Wrong again. Science is based on being skeptical, and it sure has accomplished a lot. Copernicus was skeptical of the old notion that the Earth was the center of the solar system, and he proved it wrong. Explorers like Magellan and Columbus were skeptical that the Earth was flat or square, and they proved that wrong.
From the outset in ancient Greece and even earlier in the ancient Middle East, science and math developed out of a skepticism that everything was controlled by deities. Early physics and chemistry were conceived to explain how things worked, and were often based on skepticism of religious doctrine. Today, the whole scientific method, and all the technology and advancement it has been responsible for, is based on skepticism, and not accepting wild claims until they can be proven with irrefutable evidence.
It's very naive to accept spiritual and metaphysical claims like the ones you speak of based upon the evidence you cite. I can understand the appeal of believing that humans can become super powerful telekinetic beings, but you really aren't proving anything to us here yet. All you have done is started spouting off your own beliefs. That's fine. You're intitled to be as misinformed as you'd like. Just don't expect anyone else to believe your statements if you can't back them up with any proof other than "you are being too skeptical to understand" (which isn't really proof at all, it's just evading the question).

[Noib Da Mutt]

Umm yeah....we aren't arguing over the value of meditation here, so I don't really know what that last post was about.
Anyways...

Have you ever even read a biology textbook? Evolution is not a conscious mechanism. Those prehistoric bacteria that eventually gave rise to the plants and animals we know today sure weren't concentrating on how they were going to change themselves for the better.

Wrong again. Science is based on being skeptical, and it sure has accomplished a lot. Copernicus was skeptical of the old notion that the Earth was the center of the solar system, and he proved it wrong. Explorers like Magellan and Columbus were skeptical that the Earth was flat or square, and they proved that wrong.
From the outset in ancient Greece and even earlier in the ancient Middle East, science and math developed out of a skepticism that everything was controlled by deities. Early physics and chemistry were conceived to explain how things worked, and were often based on skepticism of religious doctrine. Today, the whole scientific method, and all the technology and advancement it has been responsible for, is based on skepticism, and not accepting wild claims until they can be proven with irrefutable evidence.
It's very naive to accept spiritual and metaphysical claims like the ones you speak of based upon the evidence you cite. I can understand the appeal of believing that humans can become super powerful telekinetic beings, but you really aren't proving anything to us here yet. All you have done is started spouting off your own beliefs. That's fine. You're intitled to be as misinformed as you'd like. Just don't expect anyone else to believe your statements if you can't back them up with any proof other than "you are being too skeptical to understand" (which isn't really proof at all, it's just evading the question).


evolution is conscious in the sense that a being will adapt and develop according to what their environment permits, in otherwords evolution goes hand in hand with environment... In otherwards, I'll give you an example, because the evolution process can be studied on a lower level with mere developement as it's study... There was an experiment done with mice in which one box had a large number of mice, and it was found that in the cramped confined conditions more mice cam out underdevolped, dumber, and even homosexual, now, another box contained more room and had less mice, and it was found that in this box the mice grew larger and were significantly brighter, and none were gay... now, you add this concept to human society, which mammals typically share the same adaptation patterns, and you see why today's culture has many of the problems it has today.... For one, people are so mentally and spiritually restricted that alot of growth that could have been made in human development doesn't happen... People are being tought the concept of accepting rules and boundaries, as opposed to breaking them, resulting in limitations of humans in general, if an entire population disregarded their limitations, where do you think they would go? Sure, science has been pushing forward at a rapid rate, but that's only because it benifits from the observation and testing of boundaries... Regardless, the realm of science can not, and will not ever be able to comprehend nor explain things of a spiritual or metaphysical nature... One must partake a different mindset to understand it, and it is not one of skepticism, it is one of experience...

[LilBunnyRabbit]

if an entire population disregarded their limitations, where do you think they would go?Up in smoke.

[CKava]

There was an experiment done with mice in which one box had a large number of mice, and it was found that in the cramped confined conditions more mice cam out underdevolped, dumber, and even homosexual, now, another box contained more room and had less mice, and it was found that in this box the mice grew larger and were significantly brighter, and none were gay...So wait... now your saying that being gay is a result of not evolving? This is classic stuff.

Oh and if you would be so kind I would love to read about this scientific research you have studied. Where can I find it?

[Vanir]

On that note, I should say that a long time ago people were pretty steadfast in their belief that the world was flat and they called people who thought otherwise fools. Maybe this is a similar situation. But I still think things like mind control and levitation is a crock
An interesting point, Tika. A lot of misconceptions enforced throughout history have been more political than scientific, also. The Greek philosophers postulated several scientific possibilities which appear to have been adhered to at the point of threat through the middle ages. Individuals such as Galileo found themselves subject to the Inquisitorium for challenging ideas with testable results.
Meditation will increase your memory and cognition skills, Isaac newton meditate under a tree, enroll on a good meditation course
What kind of "meditation" did Isaac Newton use? Which manner of "meditation" increases memory and cognition skills? What are the varieties of "meditation" which are available to study?
mice cam out underdevolped, dumber, and even homosexual, now, another box contained more room and had less mice, and it was found that in this box the mice grew larger and were significantly brighter, and none were gay...
Wow, gay mice. They had a predisposition to flamboyant mardi gras and feminent mannerisms? Just kidding, references to the experimentation/quotes please?

Evolution is described by genetic biologists as a representation of "complex biodiversity" and is encountered as lifeforms become increasingly developed in a cellular and genetic sense. For example a colony of ants display more complex biodiversity in task accomplishment as an individual ant; being relatively simple celled creatures.
Arguably, by involving one's self in an outlook of a markedly superstitious or presumptuous nature one may be increasing or in fact reducing their intellectual "horizons," which may go hand in hand with individual development. One may only be aware that they are different than before and little realize they had in fact reduced their development from a point already naturally achieved.
This unfortunately would work well for unscrupulous persons with political, financial or other personal agendas in terms of manipulation, so one would expect that its promotion may be encountered through life.
Regardless, the realm of science can not, and will not ever be able to comprehend nor explain things of a spiritual or metaphysical nature
Without testable results what you have is a falsified conclusion at the point of hypothesis. Remember that science begins with reasonable hypothesis. It is a logical process and can only study, not entertain delusion without simply wasting a great deal of time and in this world often, money. Perhaps a thesaurus would be handy for those determined that the current scientific body is missing in representation.
As I've mentioned before, us apes can understand you much better when you use contemporary terminology.
One must partake a different mindset to understand it, and it is not one of skepticism, it is one of experience...
Here's some of mine: the interesting thing about experience is that it may be represented in other "languages" than simply sitting around inside your head, being claimed about. Some can relate illustratively, others in succinct grammar. I should think one whom is personally experienced in regard to the "spiritual" or supernatural would have no problem explaining their contention in the language they were taught at school, providing corroberative evidence (to minimise subjectivity), testable results of experimentation (or quotes/references to existing scientific publication) and subjecting falsifiable conclusions to peer review (allowing it to be examined by other/experts in the field for consistency and methodology).
You may be certain "supernatural things exist" but then again you may simply be viewing the mundane with fresh eyes. This shouldn't belittle the excitement. Does it take so much away to discover the rest of what's involved with something impressive to contemplate? Or that it might not have been quite what you thought, in reality?

[ziseez]

ok ill say what i have to say one last time,

science is the easier way to getting past human limitations because it is with help from another being because people learn about old theorys and have a building stone so that means that theorys can be anything because we had to start somewhere such as fire or etc.me myself dont believe in evolution i am christian.

no one can say it is possible until it is done but they cant say it aint if they havent seen it.so actually there is no answer to this question because people have there own opinion, people who relies on science is burdened by not being able to expand there mind, the air plane was said that it was impossible but didnt itwork?

faith is the main roll in everything, i sugest you all become christians and broaden your imaginations because all science came from an imagination with a dream. why i say become christian? because christians believe anything is possible with God.

:Angel:

[CKava]

"The airplane was said it was impossible?" When and by who? People were imagining flying machines long before they had the technology to back them up.

[Vanir]

ok ill say what i have to say one last time,

science is the easier way to getting past human limitations because it is with help from another being because people learn about old theorys and have a building stone so that means that theorys can be anything because we had to start somewhere such as fire or etc.me myself dont believe in evolution i am christian.

no one can say it is possible until it is done but they cant say it aint if they havent seen it.so actually there is no answer to this question because people have there own opinion, people who relies on science is burdened by not being able to expand there mind, the air plane was said that it was impossible but didnt itwork?

faith is the main roll in everything, i sugest you all become christians and broaden your imaginations because all science came from an imagination with a dream. why i say become christian? because christians believe anything is possible with God.

Just do me a favour? Please don't vote :D

[Aegis]

I would consider myself to be open minded already, but not so open that my thoughts are so scattered that useful imagination becomes impossible. I wouldn't consider christianity to be the epitome of open mindedness either, expecially if the answers quickly become "God did it" or "Anything is possible with God". Now those are turly cop-out answers rather than looking for a scientific explanation for phenomena.

I'd add to Vanir's comment by again stating that you seem to have a very warped view of science. Yes, a lot of science is done by standing on the shoulders of giants, but without the earlier works of some very great scientists throughout history, we wouldn't have ANY technology. Everyone would have to rediscover every single scientific principle for themselves, which would quite clerly limit the scope of human advance.

Finally, you say that science came from "imagination witha dream". No. Science came from thoughts, not dreams. Science starts with a hypothesis, which may well be from a dream, yes, but most often is constructed from thoughts and previous experiments coupled with knowledge of the phenomenon in question. It is then tested to determine if the hypothesis hold for all known limits. If it does, it becomes a theory (simplified, I know).

However, religion (or at least most religions) MUST come from imagination. If we assume that only one religion containing omnipotent deities can be correct, then it automatically invalidates all other similr religions. As such, most religions must have come from "dreams and imagination". It is my personal beliief that there is no god, and I have come to this belief by NOT just accepting what people told me. I thought for myself and came to this conclusion. For me to have just listened to what people told me and blindly accepted that religion would have been truly closed minded.

[Tika]

Just do me a favour? Please don't vote :D

*giggles uncontrollably*

[hwardo]

chi training and martial arts speaks for themselves. there are people who can actually use telekinesis, even though it is "impossible." i've seen chi masters do insane things, like pull trucks with their jewels, and walk on suspended paper without breaking it. most minds are limited by their sensory output, but the ones who can break from those boundaries have whole new world to explore.

See, I think that those kinds of parlour tricks do more to discredit qigong and internal arts than any other source.

[Knight_Errant]

these are the limits of humans:
http://www.gbrathletics.com/wrec.htm
I refuse to believe that if some magical force-field was in existence that could increase your capabilities beyond human limits, people like this wouldn't use it.

[Nukite]

Umm yeah....we aren't arguing over the value of meditation here, so I don't really know what that last post was about.
Anyways...

Have you ever even read a biology textbook? Evolution is not a conscious mechanism. Those prehistoric bacteria that eventually gave rise to the plants and animals we know today sure weren't concentrating on how they were going to change themselves for the better.

Wrong again. Science is based on being skeptical, and it sure has accomplished a lot. Copernicus was skeptical of the old notion that the Earth was the center of the solar system, and he proved it wrong. Explorers like Magellan and Columbus were skeptical that the Earth was flat or square, and they proved that wrong.
From the outset in ancient Greece and even earlier in the ancient Middle East, science and math developed out of a skepticism that everything was controlled by deities. Early physics and chemistry were conceived to explain how things worked, and were often based on skepticism of religious doctrine. Today, the whole scientific method, and all the technology and advancement it has been responsible for, is based on skepticism, and not accepting wild claims until they can be proven with irrefutable evidence.
It's very naive to accept spiritual and metaphysical claims like the ones you speak of based upon the evidence you cite. I can understand the appeal of believing that humans can become super powerful telekinetic beings, but you really aren't proving anything to us here yet. All you have done is started spouting off your own beliefs. That's fine. You're intitled to be as misinformed as you'd like. Just don't expect anyone else to believe your statements if you can't back them up with any proof other than "you are being too skeptical to understand" (which isn't really proof at all, it's just evading the question).
The earth was known to be round even before columbus "tilt upon it axis" old bible as him or any other being skeptic wrong he was an optimist with good info. Dieties were invented to control the people to stop them from figuring out scientific knowledge "but most scientific knowledge came from their supposed religions works while they were some "real scientific know how" "do not toutch dead bodies it is unclean, see quarantine and other stuff, better get rid of skeptism and realize that science and religion never tell it all. Misinformed well many religious people are and so are scientist, see many different unexplained thing around the world long before they were supposed discovered in modern times "old battery in badgad". I know it sound realy weirds sometimes these info, but don,t just believe scientists and religious sources use your own research first.

[Scarlet Mist]

Scarlet Mist would like to point out that the physical abilities of humans have not changed since the first records were take. Humans still cannot fly, and we still can't blow stuff up by thinking about it. We do however, build airplanes and bombs.

[Nukite]

evolution is conscious in the sense that a being will adapt and develop according to what their environment permits, in otherwords evolution goes hand in hand with environment... In otherwards, I'll give you an example, because the evolution process can be studied on a lower level with mere developement as it's study... There was an experiment done with mice in which one box had a large number of mice, and it was found that in the cramped confined conditions more mice cam out underdevolped, dumber, and even homosexual, now, another box contained more room and had less mice, and it was found that in this box the mice grew larger and were significantly brighter, and none were gay... now, you add this concept to human society, which mammals typically share the same adaptation patterns, and you see why today's culture has many of the problems it has today.... For one, people are so mentally and spiritually restricted that alot of growth that could have been made in human development doesn't happen... People are being tought the concept of accepting rules and boundaries, as opposed to breaking them, resulting in limitations of humans in general, if an entire population disregarded their limitations, where do you think they would go? Sure, science has been pushing forward at a rapid rate, but that's only because it benifits from the observation and testing of boundaries... Regardless, the realm of science can not, and will not ever be able to comprehend nor explain things of a spiritual or metaphysical nature... One must partake a different mindset to understand it, and it is not one of skepticism, it is one of experience...

"another box contained more room and had less mice, and it was found that in this box the mice grew larger and were significantly brighter, and none were gay.".. now
Man are you confused about mice they are what they are because they are born that way. All that stuff started with Moses and maybe other who had prior knowledge of bacteria "Check the bit about bread and mildew" if left uncovered and what happends in the bible nice little experiment to show bacterial poisoning and by the way jesus never metioned those "slurs against certain individuals" the problems are cause by the way a person thinks, metaphisical nature maybe this was the forerunner of quantum physics, as many religious scriptures seem to know about but in different terms than scientist, the boundaries was never there in the first place only re-discovered, yes a different mindset to use scientific equipment to explain so called spiritual or metaphysical. Some areas of the brain have already been seen to be where supposed spiritual or metaphysical things happens. Best keep up with latest research and leave metaphysical or supposed spiritual things to people who have the resources and equipment and time to research such things. Paraphychology has lots of research on these matters I don,t think one person metaphysical or spiritual natural would reveal any thing that is not already know and proven.
http://nowscape.com/mormon/kolob-defined.htm
science of ancient egypt for get the religious bit.

[Omicron]

Firstly: Nukite, that link you posted is a fictional Mormon site made up by some guy who is actually bashing religion. Seeing as you are gullible enough to accept something like that, I think that your statements (at least what I can understand of them) are somewhat misinformed.

Secondly: Noib, your mouse analogy doesn't apply to evolution. Subjecting animals to adverse conditions and then measuring the consequences is NOT how evolution works. Think about it this way: if I hit myself in the head with a 2x4 all day and eventually became dumber, would I have caused myself to evolve? No, I simply subjected my body to punishment, and it was adversely affected because of it. I don't even see what you were trying to prove with the mouse experiment. You originally said that evolution is a conscious mechanism, but the only way you backed that up was by describing something that unwitting lab animals were subjected to.

[alexxlea]

AAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH HH!
I really dislike those who misrepresent my faith.
It's like the stupidest and most ignorant person from a country becoming the ambassador to the rest of the world... the world views the entire being as the same as that one loud-mouthed individual! Horrible in my opinion.
I'd say that's a fairly ok analogy.

[hwardo]

Which, the gay mice, or the ignorant ambassador. :D

[Knight_Errant]

Noib, please learn how evolution works. Thank you.
I wonder, is there any reliable evidence on how many people actually living in the east believe in chi etc. ?

[Noib Da Mutt]

evolution is governed by environment, that is my point, the mice example merely displayed how this dynamic would work in the area of space provided to them, this not taking into account other factors of evolution such as temperature, available food, etc... The study was designed to find the effects through several generations...

[Knight_Errant]

even so, acquired characteristics are not inherited. Do you imagine that if I bit somebody's ear off, their descendants would be earless?

[Noib Da Mutt]

even so, acquired characteristics are not inherited. Do you imagine that if I bit somebody's ear off, their descendants would be earless?


your point being? What does this have to do with my initial example?

[Nukite]

Firstly: Nukite, that link you posted is a fictional Mormon site made up by some guy who is actually bashing religion. Seeing as you are gullible enough to accept something like that, I think that your statements (at least what I can understand of them) are somewhat misinformed.

Secondly: Noib, your mouse analogy doesn't apply to evolution. Subjecting animals to adverse conditions and then measuring the consequences is NOT how evolution works. Think about it this way: if I hit myself in the head with a 2x4 all day and eventually became dumber, would I have caused myself to evolve? No, I simply subjected my body to punishment, and it was adversely affected because of it. I don't even see what you were trying to prove with the mouse experiment. You originally said that evolution is a conscious mechanism, but the only way you backed that up was by describing something that unwitting lab animals were subjected to.
yeah there is a lot of personal "non objective views" about religion based on personal personality, cutural and just damm short sightedness "easy to spot and all" not gullible as the person who wrote it. Most people tend to lose their rational and "express their own personal quirks of putting their own personal bias into basic fact info. No mystery just satori. Not that I am comming from a bias religious
"The core of Krishnamurti's teaching is contained in the statement he made in 1929 when he said: 'Truth is a pathless land'. Man cannot come to it through any organisation, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, not through any philosophic knowledge or psychological technique. He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind".
view but "joseph smith" enought about his life to "make people think" the translation but here the supposed other side
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml#jewish
must see from both supposed side and see the funny side how both bend the "writing to fit their own personal quirks of personality". There are only mysteries because of such "personality blindness and so obvious bias" No mystery if satori is and cut,s through the lenses of personal perception no MYSTERY at all just plain and simple human "within their own universe and not experience anything else but their own small piece of the greater whole view". The mystery will evolve
http://www.wie.org/j11/default.asp the threads between science and krisnamutri philosophy

Already happening on the scientific level and these guys are the cutting edge of the stuff. As for my own personal growth "the universe is changing as we change the construct we
http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/ This guy is part of the equation of where the other links have evolved.

[alexxlea]

I was talking about the misinformed people of the supposedly Christian faith/viewpoint here when I made my statement.

[little_monkey]

do or do not there is no try!- yoda

[GhostOfYourMind]

Here's my view on what limits a person:

I think that people are limited by their minds. If you I guess, "dig down deep", you can control your muscles and body to do things that wouldn't normally be possible. Of course there are consequences to this like damage to your body. So basically, to me it's all in your head. As for walkin on paper and stuff...that's physics. If the paper isn't strong enough to hold you, it's gonna tear. We're limited by science, but freed by our minds. That make any sense to anyone?

[blackbelt_judoj]

Our bodies have very definate limitations built into them. I'll grant that it may appear some can do "super human acts" such as increased strength etc but there is nothing super human about it. They have just realised their potential and used it. Anyone could poteneially do the same in a similar scenario. To say that these people have set themselves free of science is pure rubbish (in my opinion - before you all jump me!). Using your mind to push your body beyond it's normal use is obviously possible but does anyone out there really believe they are getting their muscles to do something they are in theory not capable of doing? By the way, full credit goes to those who can push themselves that bit further...

[Kosh]

You could argue that all human limitations are illusions since once you hit a limitation, you have already broken it.

[king_dragon]

well if we talk about the limits of humans we go into chi and shen , I saw a kung-fu black belt (one of my teachers) break a peice of wood balanced on two raw eggs, by all means of physics the eggs should have broken but they stayed intact,he had bin doin chi training for many years and was not very physically strong.

[Noib Da Mutt]

You could argue that all human limitations are illusions since once you hit a limitation, you have already broken it.


I like this point...

[Knight_Errant]

It's wrong though- limitations are limitations. To break it, you have to exceed them.

[Ophqui]

limitations? depends if you mean short term or long term. I mean physically short term i cant do a million push ups, i literally cant, about 999,999 is my limit :D
On a long enough timeline though i dont think there are many limitations, and if theres something you cant do there are always ways to improve your chances of success, even with something 'impossible' like psychic powers or sumthin

[Omicron]

Why did this thread have to come back....

[ZenPolice]

I can pick a ripe, delicious apple from a generous branch and eat it under the shade of the tree. I can stoop down by a running stream and sip cool, fresh water from my cupped hands. I can watch the sun sink slowly upon the ocean waves and smile, completely content and fulfilled.

Limitations? None. Every moment of my life is filled with miracles.

[zenmonk]

Every moment of my life is filled with miracles.
I kind of like this phrase. Thank you ZenPolice. It was beautifully said.

Interesting thread. Have to read this tomorrow fully...

[pardus]

There were a LOT of things that "man would never be able to do" no more than 50 years ago - yet we've done a LOT of those very things.

yes... we have done many things over the past 50 years that were thought impossible... things like creating laptop computers and other such sophisticated technology. All these things that we accomplished, we used physical tools to do, not crazy mental powers. :bang:

I do recognize the merits of meditation and heightening one's awareness, however, there are limitations to the physical human body that must be recognized. the mind can only take you so far before you are forced to depend on outside sources (such as tools) to achieve the things your mind tells you should be possible.

[Omicron]

I'll say it again...
Why did this thread have to come back....

[Poogle]

In response to the 'you should all become Christian', I would like to say that in my experience of watching my friends be converted: to become Christian you do have to open your mind very very wide to let Christ in. You then have to close your mind and turn out all the lights so your mind doesn't know Christ is still there and try to reject him. The heart, however, remains open wide, open to everyone and everything, for all the days of your life.

Christians: Closed minds, open hearts. Not intrinsically bad. Perhaps that is the way God wants us to be?

Re: Open minds. An open mind is both a valuable and dangerous thing. One should only open one's mind if one has sufficient intelligence to act as a filter against all the nonsense floating around in the world. The sort of nonsense that would make my tutor write 'poppycock' and 'balderdash' on our tutorial work. Well, I say 'our'... Mine only ever got things like 'ok' (actually very high praise from my tutor) and 'all of this will need to be restudied' (with reference to the fact we had been told to study 'old' ideas about atomic physics before modern ideas, not to any 'failed study' on my part).

For some strange reason, our universe adheres to certain rules that to most of us consider to be bizarre and unnecessary. Things like not being able to transmit information faster than the speed of light in vacuum. The actual physical mathematically provable consequences of the non-existence of a rule like this would cause the universe to descend into chaos. The universe is not in chaos, and we have the rules you seem to think are so easily broken to thank for it. If I've got time I will present the proof to you. (Like going back in time and killing your grandfather in the movies causes the universe to implode. But with actual rules that we know exist, rather than hypothetical rules that only exist in science fiction where time travel happens.)

[aikiMac]

In response to the 'you should all become Christian', I would like to say that in my experience of watching my friends be converted: to become Christian you do have to open your mind very very wide to let Christ in. You then have to close your mind and turn out all the lights so your mind doesn't know Christ is still there and try to reject him. The heart, however, remains open wide, open to everyone and everything, for all the days of your life.

Christians: Closed minds, open hearts. Not intrinsically bad. Perhaps that is the way God wants us to be?
Perhaps what you see as a "closed mind" is to them a satisfied mind. Perhaps while you're still wondering which way is up and why that direction must be up, your friends have received all the answers and the answers make sense to them, so they no longer have to ask questions.

Right or wrong, it's a thought. :o

[Omicron]

Perhaps what you see as a "closed mind" is to them a satisfied mind. Perhaps while you're still wondering which way is up and why that direction must be up, your friends have received all the answers and the answers make sense to them, so they no longer have to ask questions.

Right or wrong, it's a thought. :o
I agree. Some people are just more easily satisfied than others, I suppose.

[The Wanderer]

limits are perceived illusions...

[Sheyja]

what are they? How are they defined? Is it possible to reach them?

Personally I believe a human is limited only by the growth of their spiritual selves, individuals that are more spiritually developed tend to be more inclined to unlock more of their potential than others... I see it as a simply convertian and efficient use of energy...

There are no limits save those we choose for ourselves.

Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours.

[Omicron]

I can't fly. Nor can I manifest telekinesis.

Or wait. Are those just limitations I'm putting on myself?

[The Wanderer]

yes...

[Sheyja]

I can't fly. Nor can I manifest telekinesis.

Or wait. Are those just limitations I'm putting on myself?

Yes they are.

It's not just that anything's possible. It's that everything's possible.

However, if you decide that's a load of rubbish and you're much happier believing in limits and things that you cannot do, then stick with ur mind and be limited. Just know it's your choice.

[Choices]

Any limitations you perceive are limits you can overcome.

If you perceive the limit, then in reality the limit stops being the limit. Only time can give you that. I believe in an unlimited potential in any aspect of human existance, mentally, physically. But then again, i invested time to experiment on my own, for myself. Now the outcomes are not important for anyone else but me, but do you wanna know the limit of human beings, then you should experiment on your own.

Everyone has the potential to be unlimited, as does everyone have the potential to be limited. One truth does not make another truth impossible, relativeness is awesome like that :).

[Omicron]

So I can break the physical laws of the universe if only I apply myself hard enough? I find it hard to believe that all through human history not a single person has been able to overcome death, or aging, or countless other things that would bring him or her international recognition.

There's a huge difference between being able to perceive something and that something actually being real or attainable.

[Choices]

So I can break the physical laws of the universe if only I apply myself hard enough? I find it hard to believe that all through human history not a single person has been able to overcome death, or aging, or countless other things that would bring him or her international recognition.

There's a huge difference between being able to perceive something and that something actually being real or attainable.
Recorded history that is, big difference. :), and there are plenty of people who have been known to do that. But you would need to search the right things. Or if you don't trust sources, go experiment yourself. Plenty of things, to to read about it. Can't blame them for not trusting any of those sources.

Anyway here's a example of something you havent heard about before:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3236118.stm

[Omicron]

Recorded history that is, big difference. :), and there are plenty of people who have been known to do that. But you would need to search the right things. Or if you don't trust sources, go experiment yourself. Plenty of things, to to read about it. Can't blame them for not trusting any of those sources.

Anyway here's a example of something you havent heard about before:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3236118.stm
Wait...you're not seriously saying that there have been flying humans in the past, are you? And don't you think that an ageless, airborn person would at least be recorded by somebody? And wouldn't he or she still be alive today?

Doctors say they cannot verify his claim...
So some random old guy in India claiming to have not eaten in ages proves your theory? Hardly...

[CKava]

I feel sorry for you Omicron I foresee many tortuos posts about how you could fly if only you would BELIEVE in it... maybe Choices and Sheyja watched Peter Pan too many times as children (or adults).

[AOFNick]

limits are only defined and then shattered by the drastic and sometimes tragic needs to exceed them

[Choices]

Wait...you're not seriously saying that there have been flying humans in the past, are you? And don't you think that an ageless, airborn person would at least be recorded by somebody? And wouldn't he or she still be alive today?


So some random old guy in India claiming to have not eaten in ages proves your theory? Hardly...
"has just spent 10 days under constant observation in Sterling Hospital, in the western Indian city of Ahmedabad."

not possible, scientifically to be without food and water for 10 days mate. Read correctly when you quote. Doctors could not verifiy his claim because they couldn't observe him for decades, but they did for 10 days. But nevermind, i feel sorry for you to have bothered replying if you only read what you want to read.

And i'm saying nothing about; this or that happened, i'm saying it's possible it happened. Sources are never 100% reliable, or else i would've said that it definately happened of course :).
Anyway, sorry for entering this topic, probly wasn't one of my best ideas haha. Enjoy

[Sheyja]

I feel sorry for you Omicron I foresee many tortuos posts about how you could fly if only you would BELIEVE in it... maybe Choices and Sheyja watched Peter Pan too many times as children (or adults).

Haha :)
Maybe you should keep your thumb on the pulse of scientific discoveries!

Scientists have just created 'hot ice' or 'hard water', where they pass a specific elecrical current through water and it turns it solid at room temperature.
Dr Hadou has altered the structure of water using simply thoughts of peace or hatred - under scientific conditions.
Quantum physics has shown many times that we can affect supposedly solid matter. We are surrounded by a bioelectromagnetic field, Auras (unless u want to debate them? proven decades ago) and that field can change it's charge to the same as the scientists who turned water hard. And if you can turn a liquid into a solid like that, could you turn a solid into a liquid, and so on.
The point here is that supposed impossiblities are becoming more and more proven each year, and you all might have to change the way you look at the world.

And anyway, what could I gain from not believing in any of it? And what might I gain from believing it could be possible?

[The Wanderer]

So I can break the physical laws of the universe if only I apply myself hard enough? I find it hard to believe that all through human history not a single person has been able to overcome death, or aging, or countless other things that would bring him or her international recognition.

There's a huge difference between being able to perceive something and that something actually being real or attainable.

Yeshua...

[CKava]

Dr Hadou has altered the structure of water using simply thoughts of peace or hatred - under scientific conditions...Quantum physics has shown many times that we can affect supposedly solid matter. We are surrounded by a bioelectromagnetic field, Auras (unless u want to debate them? proven decades ago) and that field can change it's charge to the same as the scientists who turned water hard. And if you can turn a liquid into a solid like that, could you turn a solid into a liquid, and so on.
Sure I'll debate your pseudo science why not? First off on the subject of Aura's they have only just recently been identified as one in the same as electromagnetic fields... and unfortunately for your argument identifying aura's with a documented scientific phenomena is a bad idea as it makes them testable and their properties quite well understood, as you will see.

That electromagnetic fields exist is indeed proven however electromagnetic fields do not posses any of the properties that charlatans, oops I mean New Age pyschics have attested to auras. Furthermore although electromagnetic fields have been proven to exist the suggestion that they can be seen with the naked eye or 'detected' by 'psychics' has never been proven and indeed would go against scientific evidence that the human eye simply cannot detect them. Also despite the fact that James Randi has been offering 1 million dollars to anyone who can repeatedly detect aura's (in particular the difference in aura between a human and a manakin) no-one has managed to claim the money yet.

As for Dr. 'Hadou'... first off I think you might need to do a bit more research since there is no such person as Dr. 'Hadou' there is a Dr. Masaru Emoto whose theories about messages having effect over water is referred to as Hadou in Japanese. Anyway, right off the bat the James Randi association are in again offering Dr. Emoto 1 million dollars if he can replicate his findings in a double blind test conducted under observation and so far (DRUM ROLL)...... nothing to report. His findings are not taken seriously by any scientist as he hasn't published any of his findings in peer reviewed academic journals and he has acknowledged he doesn't use double blind procedures.

Thats the first two of your new 'scientific' theories I looked into and I cant be bothered with the rest right now but I think we both know where this is heading. Either your interpreting scientific discoveries in the wrong way or your gullibly quoting junk science which is not accepted by the scientific community for not following proper scientific procedure and for being to all intents and purposes 'silly nonsense'.

And anyway, what could I gain from not believing in any of it? And what might I gain from believing it could be possible?
From not believing things automatically you would gain critical senses; the ability to not just be a gullible sheep swallowing whatever any New Age nonsense happens to be in vogue... not to mention you could start looking at real verified scientific developments which are often much more incredible and interesting than pseudo-scientific drivel.