How do you train for reality?

[Pat OMalley]

A lot of people have gone off subject and been discussing on the "Why do Filipinos prefer foreign martial arts?" thread how they feel you should train for reality.

Many have disagreed (which is good) and some have agreed and some have misunderstood each other.

So here we go with this new thread. What do you think is the best way to train your FMA skills for a real combat situation. what format should you use.
Should it be the armour based WEKAF format, the padded stick format such as Arnis Philippines, the Dog Brothers of Black Eagle Society limited rules and limited armour format, or something else?

Is FMA suited to MMA or do you think the MMA guys would win over the FMA?

I have my opinions and you can see a few on the Why do Filipinos prefer foreign martial arts? Thread, but I am sure I will give a few more here as the discussion heats up.

Speak to you all very soon

Mabuhay


Pat O'Malley

[Diego_Vega]

So here we go with this new thread. What do you think is the best way to train your FMA skills for a real combat situation.

Do you mean in a controlled sporting enviorment with sticks or a real combat situation where I can use any weapon(s) and tactics? There's a truism (which I don't think is true) that all fights go to the ground. Well, I've lived in the Philippines for the last 3 years and the half dozen real fights I've personally witnessed, not once have the combatants closed to where grappling was possible. In fact, I've never seen them close enough to throw a punch or kick. Real fights here involve groups using projectile weapons. You'll see groups of teens with napsacks worn in front of the body, all the better to have access to the rocks inside. They then fake a charge, yell a lot, then throw their rock and retreat back to their group. I think the best training for this would be lots and lots of dodge ball games.

what format should you use.
Should it be the armour based WEKAF format, the padded stick format such as Arnis Philippines, the Dog Brothers of Black Eagle Society limited rules and limited armour format, or something else?

I think all of the above have their training advantages. I don't see why you couldn't use the training advantages of all the different equipment used by the aforementioned groups at different stages of your training. WEKAF promotes flow and endurance in its often mindless muddle of witiks; ARPI promotes cleaner strikes at the expense of any kind of defense; Dog Brothers/Black Eagle promotes toughness and tenacity the few times a year you can practice all out like this.

Is FMA suited to MMA or do you think the MMA guys would win over the FMA?

FMA isn't suited to MMA at all. The empty hands aspects are secondary and not as efficient as the empty hands of styles that specialize in them. I'm assuming that you're talking about the controlled enviorment of a sporting ring here, the mma ring. In a "real combat situation" where the fma'er would be expected to use a weapon... I think a sharp blade pointed outwards and held at waist level could stop just about any takedown attempt.

[Pat OMalley]

Do you mean in a controlled sporting enviorment with sticks or a real combat situation where I can use any weapon(s) and tactics? There's a truism (which I don't think is true) that all fights go to the ground. Well, I've lived in the Philippines for the last 3 years and the half dozen real fights I've personally witnessed, not once have the combatants closed to where grappling was possible. In fact, I've never seen them close enough to throw a punch or kick.

I have heard so many people say that all fights go to the ground, in a way this can be true. In my 15 plus years working the Doors as a Bouncer as many would call it. 99% of the time the only time I have seen a fight go to the ground is when one person gets put on his ass and the other stands over them. So the trueism is not so true, but rather a publicity stunt to promote grappling. Not that I am saying grappling is no good, I practice grappling a lot. But in a real fight I would say that 99% DONT go to the ground.

Anyway, back on the subject. Training for reality, at the end of the day what I mean is reality as in survival on the street. How do you train for the reality of the street confrontation. Do you use the sporting formats as mentioned or do you have a particular method of training that you feel would benenfit the practitioner in learning the realities of street combat without actually picking a fight on the street.

Best regards


Pat ;)

[Gryphon Hall]

I have heard so many people say that all fights go to the ground, in a way this can be true. In my 15 plus years working the Doors as a Bouncer as many would call it. 99% of the time the only time I have seen a fight go to the ground is when one person gets put on his ass and the other stands over them. So the trueism is not so true, but rather a publicity stunt to promote grappling. Not that I am saying grappling is no good, I practice grappling a lot. But in a real fight I would say that 99% DONT go to the ground.
Yeah! You know, come to think of it, most of the street fights (mainly bus conductors and taxi drivers) and university fraternity rumbles I have witnessed never even make it to the ground, even when there was some grappling. About the only time I ever see the fight go to the ground is when a person is sucker-punched or ambushed, then there's not much "fight" there, really.

That's why for the longest time, my brother and I would try "ambushing" each other (ala Pink Panther), sometimes with sparring, sometimes without, but with the focus on it being anywhere; it became a game to us. Makes one kind of paranoid, for a while. However, I can say it has helped my brother become aware of suspicious movements towards him before potential muggers actually reach him during the two times he had been assaulted on the street by muggers. Both times, they had outnumbered him and they had knives; but just that mental preparation of knowing that you could be attacked helped him, either by positioning himself where they had to come at him one at a time (the first, on a bus aisle) or by positioning his backpack towards the logical places concealed knives would likely enter (mid-section, etc.). They still went for him, but both ended them being the ones running away, injured.

Anyway, back on the subject. Training for reality, at the end of the day what I mean is reality as in survival on the street. How do you train for the reality of the street confrontation. Do you use the sporting formats as mentioned or do you have a particular method of training that you feel would benenfit the practitioner in learning the realities of street combat without actually picking a fight on the street.

I still maintain that training to compete in tournaments is a valuable training aid to prepare for the street, so long as one understands the the tournament itself is not a street encounter. Case in point, my example above. It was a fun game. Who gets to ambush and surprise who. We made a mental tally of who ambushed who more. We got to be skilled at public concealment; we started becoming aware of places where the other can be publicly concealed. Yet we never "mugged" each other, right? But it gave as, if not an instinct, but the habit of being aware of every corner, of every alley, of proximity, of distance, "surprise factor" (so to speak) that helps. Just how far away from an alley should you be when you walk by, close enough so that you don't give away that you know they are there, but far enough to avoid any attempts at ambush (unless it was a gun; we admit we haven't found a way around that yet)?

I, too, am researching some "rules" for tournament that might work as a good training ground for the street, yet still exciting to watch as a sport. When I am done, I think I will post it here or in another thread. My greatest drawback, however, is that I have never entered into any competition and I am not a martial arts instructor at all. I am just a sports fan, and I am trying to create rules that will still feature skills useful in a real fight, but would be interesting to me as a sports fan. I may or may not succeed. I think, in fact, that sir Pat would have more success; but I still want to give it a go.

FMA isn't suited to MMA at all. The empty hands aspects are secondary and not as efficient as the empty hands of styles that specialize in them. I'm assuming that you're talking about the controlled enviorment of a sporting ring here, the mma ring. In a "real combat situation" where the fma'er would be expected to use a weapon... I think a sharp blade pointed outwards and held at waist level could stop just about any takedown attempt.
You kidding? ;) So what if it's "secondary"? Just the footwork training alone would be useful in dodging takedowns. Not 100% of the time, we must admit, but better chances over one trained to "take" the takedowns, rather than dodge or deflect them, as I think FMA weapons training teaches. What most FMA practitioners don't have, unfortunately, is mass or height, which is the factor that may hinder "wins" in MMA tourneys.

[Pat OMalley]

I, too, am researching some "rules" for tournament that might work as a good training ground for the street, yet still exciting to watch as a sport. When I am done, I think I will post it here or in another thread. My greatest drawback, however, is that I have never entered into any competition and I am not a martial arts instructor at all. I am just a sports fan, and I am trying to create rules that will still feature skills useful in a real fight, but would be interesting to me as a sports fan. I may or may not succeed. I think, in fact, that sir Pat would have more success; but I still want to give it a go.

:) You may be surprised, I think a fresh outlook from someone who has not competed and is not an instructor is just the input we need, as you are more likely to be able to tell us what looks exciting to the spectator rather than being blinded by how "TRADITIONAL" it should be. Best of luck in your research and maybe we can compare notes. :woo:

Best regards

Pat

[Diego_Vega]

You kidding? So what if it's "secondary"? Just the footwork training alone would be useful in dodging takedowns. Not 100% of the time, we must admit, but better chances over one trained to "take" the takedowns, rather than dodge or deflect them, as I think FMA weapons training teaches. What most FMA practitioners don't have, unfortunately, is mass or height, which is the factor that may hinder "wins" in MMA tourneys.

Actually, I wish I were kidding. I wish that I could say that the empty hands of fma is as good as any other martial art. I think that the technical potential is there, but the fact that we spend more time of weapons means that our weapons tends to be better while the empty hands not as good. There are exceptions. My friend Mumbakki concentrates on the empty hands aspects of fma and his students are awesome in the striking and grappling game with or without rules. Mumbakki has entered mma competitions here in the Philippines and wound up breaking his opponents leg in the knee and ankle. As for the footwork of fma being useful for dogding takedowns? Maybe. If we're talking mma, we're talking about a sporting event in a confined space. As Joe Louis said, you can run but you can't hide. I used to do an art call bagua that spent almost 100% of the practice focusing on footwork. My friends and I have tried it against grapplers and got taken down 100% of the time. Other bagua people I've spoken to have suffered similar indignities. I think that weight is nolonger an isssue today in mma events because there are weight categories. Despite this, I know a lot of fma people who are 6 ft and over and 200 lbs plus, a few of them Filipino.

I think that hard training of any kind, especially preparing for a tournament, prepares one for real life street encounters. New students can start out with WEKAF or ARPI style sparring and as their skills and confidence improves, move on to harder and harder sparring with less protective equipment. The physical conditioning cannot but go hand in hand with mentally and emotionally toughening the individual. Realizing that the people pounding you in the gym every day are probably bigger, tougher, stronger and more skilled than anyone you're likely to run into in the streets gives you confidence. As for situations that involve multiple attackers, ambushes and realistic weapons (blunt, edged, projectile), well, that's where the scenario based training comes in. A student has to learn that the objective of that kind of encounter is survival not winning.

[Andy Murray]

I think the whole point in having a weapon, is to have an advantage, something your opponent hopefully hasn't got.

The downside to padded sticks and armour etc as I see it, is that you can shrug off a good hit with a 'good shot mate' comment, where getting hit with a good shot should really be ending the fight.
I think it's in the mindset.

I'm a newbie to FMA, but I think all the different methods mentioned so far have their place, so long as the risk elements are properly balanced with the development of the individual.

A suggestion for those doing padded, is to use 'one hit' sparring matches.
It's something we used to do to sharpen up for point fighting, which we called 'winner stops on'.
Two people square off, first struck leaves and winner stays on.
The objective being to stay on as long as possible, and land the decisive strike consistently.

[DeeTee]

"A suggestion for those doing padded, is to use 'one hit' sparring matches.
It's something we used to do to sharpen up for point fighting, which we called 'winner stops on'.
Two people square off, first struck leaves and winner stays on.
The objective being to stay on as long as possible, and land the decisive strike consistently."

It all depends on what you're training for. As you say, for point sparring it's a good idea. For full contact, minimal armour, it's not going to prepare you enough - unless you use it to isolate your defensive and evasion skills. If you spar minimal armour using a good weight rattan and about 70 - 80% power then you'll be amazed at the shots you take. Shots that on paper you'd think would stop you in your tracks (with the obvious exception of head shots) simply don't. You feel it later but at that particular moment, during the heat, your adrenalin is pumping so hard and your awareness is through the roof, when someone lands a decent shot it registers with you but doesn't make you fold. Again, with the exception of head shots, decisive strikes delivered consistantly will only really have an effect in this area of sparring if they are executed as a sustained attack rather than singular one shot kills.

[Andy Murray]

Like I said, it was a suggestion for those sparring padded, as this is where a good shot is afforded the least recognition.

[DeeTee]

Yeah, I acknowledged that it was a good suggestion. My train of thought was that if you use padded as a stepping stone to fighting with rattan (which is a reasonable assumption to make) then the lessons learnt there, "The objective being to stay on as long as possible, and land the decisive strike consistently." become redundant.

What's a decisive shot in padded stick sparring?

[YODA]

What's a decisive shot in padded stick sparring?
This is. The recipient went down and couldn't continue for 20-30 seconds. Plenty of time to deliver a coup-de-grace had it been for real.

[DeeTee]

Good shot. Were you the recipient?

[YODA]

Good shot. Were you the recipient?
Nope - I was the deliverer. I didn't get off unscathed from the session though.

[Andy Murray]

Yeah, I acknowledged that it was a good suggestion. My train of thought was that if you use padded as a stepping stone to fighting with rattan (which is a reasonable assumption to make) then the lessons learnt there, "The objective being to stay on as long as possible, and land the decisive strike consistently." become redundant.

What's a decisive shot in padded stick sparring?

You'd need a better explanation of what I was suggesting Dee Tee.
I was trying not to take the thread too far off topic.

[Louie]

In the Western form of stick-fighting bouts, the singlestick represents a sword and all hits are audibly acknowledged by their recipient, recognising that a cut to the wrist etc, would have disabled him/her and probably ended the fight. Participants then restart the bout until another hit is made.
It is stressed that the fencer with the singlestick is guilty of a bad error of judgment if he risks being hit through attacking in such a way as to risk being hit himself.

The singlestick could also represent a wooden cudgel and in those matches only a solid blow to the head - and an inch of blood appearing (first blood) would win the match, blows to the rest of the body didn't score unless the recipient couldn't continue. :cry:

Louie

[Scotty Dog]

Good shot. Were you the recipient?

was I your second guess ??

Thanks Yoda, thought it was just the belt that was ment to be black :p

[YODA]

was I your second guess ??

Thanks Yoda, thought it was just the belt that was ment to be black :pROFLMAO :D

I hearby confer upon your the grand title of "1st Degree Black Leg" :D

[Scotty Dog]

ROFLMAO

don't you mean ROF-holding me leg & crying :p

[Jax]

Back to the original question, of training for reality.. if i ever get good enuff and have enuff experience to start teaching one of the things i would do with the more experienced students is to give them both adequate protection (groin guard, gloves but with finger holes) and let them do freestyle fighting, with the premice of taking them down and finishing, but not doing a gunting or anything like that...:)

I belive this would prepare them for a stranger throwing a punch at them, from sparring experience they would know from what type of punch is thrown where to enter etc. just a thought :D hopefully im off the philipines in december, if i can get the money together to train with gm abner pasa.. the training over there is really really hard :)

[Pat OMalley]

It all depends on what you're training for. As you say, for point sparring it's a good idea. For full contact, minimal armour, it's not going to prepare you enough - unless you use it to isolate your defensive and evasion skills. If you spar minimal armour using a good weight rattan and about 70 - 80% power then you'll be amazed at the shots you take. Shots that on paper you'd think would stop you in your tracks (with the obvious exception of head shots) simply don't. You feel it later but at that particular moment, during the heat, your adrenalin is pumping so hard and your awareness is through the roof, when someone lands a decent shot it registers with you but doesn't make you fold. Again, with the exception of head shots, decisive strikes delivered consistantly will only really have an effect in this area of sparring if they are executed as a sustained attack rather than singular one shot kills.

;) What can I say except for too true DeeTee, I have fought in more minimal amour bouts than I care to remember at walked away with many a broken bone and many a cut body, arm and leg, and not realised it until I got down the pub and tried to sink my first beer. But also as Yoda stated I have had shots that have stopped me in my tracks and I have delivered shots that have stopped others in their tracks too, so it is all a matter of luck on the day. But you are right in the fact that the human body can take a lot more punishment than many people realise.

Louie pointed out points relating to the stick being based on the sword and if your sparring is based on the sword then yes maybe the one point stop and start system is the way to go, but I would rather use a live stick to represent the sword as opposed to the padded stick.
The padded stick alows you to be able to train for the more aggressive live stick sparring sessions which lets you practice your combinations, attacking and evading skills and is a great tool for begiiners, intermediate and advanced. The live stick sparring is only for the crazy ones who are toutched in the head as they say, and I must admit I have been toutched for many a year now and hit in the head so many times the brain decided to vacate long time ago, but as they say "where there is no sense, there is no feeling".
All aspects of sparring have their benafits and pitfalls, from the Armoured sparring, right up to the live stick, minimal armour sparring - even this has some drawbacks, for instance, the headgear allows the bout to last longer and in some cases go to the ground. No head gead and big stick hitting head at full power can and will 99% of the time finish the bout.
It is what you get out of your sparring sessions that count. If you partner does not acknowledge the fact that you have hit him with a blow that in reality would finish the bout, that does not matter, as long as YOU know the bout would be over, your partner is just living in a false sence of security if they think they can take certain shots that we all know that 99% of the time would finish the fight. But remember that there is always the 1% of the time that you come accross the one person that no matter what you do, you just cannot put them down.


Sticks up


Pat O'Malley :woo:

[Scotty Dog]

A friend recently said something to me that changed my thoughts on this.

went along the lines of.
"all arts have practitioners & fighters, you wouldn't expect everyone training in a thai club to get in the ring. The important thing is that SOME do, and they help the others keep that in mind while training"

there about 10/14 regulars train with me, out of that all spar at the level theyre comfy with, some it's WEKAF helmets, padded sticks &Heavy gloves, some padded sticks/saftey specs/no gloves, Some fencing masks & light gloves.

out of the group I' say there are 2-3 able to go with Raw rattan, maybe another 2-3 that would want to. The rest are happy playing with the padded & protective gear. The point is the ones that Are willing & able are a constant reminder to the others. Even if just by the fact they've seen what happens with min armour & raw rattan.

It is what you get out of your sparring sessions that count. If you partner does not acknowledge the fact that you have hit him with a blow that in reality would finish the bout, that does not matter, as long as YOU know the bout would be over

Very true :D

[DeeTee]

"But also as Yoda stated I have had shots that have stopped me in my tracks and I have delivered shots that have stopped others in their tracks too, so it is all a matter of luck on the day. But you are right in the fact that the human body can take a lot more punishment than many people realise."

Yeah, sorry, what I was trying to put over (albeit rather poorly) was that it's generally the shots that you would think (prior to training full contact) would stop you in your track usually don't and the ones you wouldn't pay a second thought to do. I imagine a few of us here have been involved in FC for sometime now. For myself it's been about 7 years. But when I first started training in the FMA, my JKD instructor would say things like "What I'd do is just take out the kneecap and stop the fight dead." Well the reality is quite different. First off the kneecap is a relatively small target that just happens to be constantly on the move and changing range. You have to really set this stuff up because if you go for it and fail to recover in time, man, you better kiss your head goodbye. The point is, until you try it, we all labour under certain misconceptions about what will and wont work. when I say about shots you would pay a second thought to, I mean stuff like full power blows with the tip of the stick across the chest or midsection that I know causes a momentary freeze in the opponent that can be expoited. Anyway, sorry to go off track a bit.....

[WT_ATL]

Personally, I feel reality training differs depending on where you are. For example, in some countries the likelihood of being attacked by multiple assailants all garnishing weapons, all wanting to kill you for no other reason other then you are an outsider, is very high. Where the thought of going to jail doesn’t even cross their minds. Where the value of someone else’s life or life in general is not very high.

Here in Atlanta, the more common scenario is a bar fight, or a mugging. I guess what I’m trying to say is that to me “Reality Training” is based on different scenarios. In order to train in reality, you have to put yourself in the context of specific situations.

[Gryphon Hall]

This is what we (my brother and I) have come up so far, based on the type of "real" fights that are typical here (that is, the fraternity rumble or street battle, and the gang mugging). The assumption here is that you either find yourself outnumbered or they are.

What my bro and I would do is do a bit of modified point scoring. If I am able to hit him in any way on any target on his body, and I don't get hit back within a second, I score a point. However, if, after hitting him, he gets a hit back within a second, then I don't score. The match continues until we get tired or feel too sore.

The lessons that I think is learned using this training method is:

just because you dealt a blow, probably a good one, doesn't mean the antagonist cannot still hurt you
even after you deal a good, probably fight-ending blow, one learns to evade and defend still, just in case, again, there are other parting shots from your antagonist or his allies
one learns to be patient, i.e. not to put that one strong blow that leaves you open, but instead allows you to develop quick, economic attacks
I am thinking of incorporating that in some rules for tournament. I find that it makes quite an exciting show, especially if there is a time-limit and a minimum score to be used, or if instead of a second to react, we use two instead.

Nevertheless, I don't know if it will work for everybody, especially for a bar brawl. Frat rumbles and street muggings usually occur in places where there is either plenty of space or, if in enclosed areas, have plenty of avenues of escape.

[Estel Authorion]

Aww, you know how I hate point scoring!:woo:














Well, :o especially since I always get pointscored! :p

:( Grr.:rolleyes: