Breaking [Archive] - Martial Arts Planet

Thomas Vince

03-Mar-2002, 06:42 PM

Andy,
Let me tell you a quick story before we talk about breaking. Bruce Lee was basically discovered at the International Karate Championships held in Long Beach California by Ed Parker. Mr. Parker actually took Bruce Lee into his own home for several months while the two of them shared philosophy on the martial arts. Mr. Parker introduced him to new principles and concepts and Bruce shared of his knowledge with MR . Parker. Bruce Lee gave a very good demonstration in 1962 at IKC and soon after that Mr. Parker helped get him a job as "Kato" on a cool show called the green hornet. Bruce was cool he had a mask and he kicked butt fighting crime with his super hero buddy The Green Hornet. The rest is history! Mr. Parker did a few films to, he produced a film called "The Perfect Weapon" starring my buddy Jeff Speakman, it was a USA motion picture film. Anyway,
true boards do not hit back. I practiced breaking techniques years ago because it helped me improved my focus and power. I think it's important to note that hitting a moving object is often much harder for some of us, so it is not considered a practical method used to increased stopping power in a self defense situation. However if someone to thrust a knife at your midsection and you step back hammering down on his forearm with hammerfist strike you can break his arm if you can break a stack of boards. I've seen many parlour tricks in my time, heated bricks, dried out pine boards, ice with holes and ridges cut into them, all to help ease the breaking process and impress the audience. The practice of Bone Hardening Techniques is an art in itself and should still remain a personal choice, if you like breaking do not listen to those who may say boards do not hit back because of thier inability to break anything. And vice-versa don't be to swept up my people who beleive that breaking is where is at. In order to be a well rounded martial artist we practiced many things didn't we?
Yours in the Spirit of Kenpo,
Thomas Vince
5th Degree Black
IKKA

Andy Murray

03-Mar-2002, 10:21 PM

I watched Jeff Speakman in two or three films. Not just 'Perfect Weapon'.

Why not pop something up in the Movie section for Jeff.

Back to Breaking.....................

waya

04-Mar-2002, 03:13 AM

I practice breaking to an extent, it's not a large part of training for me though. Maybe in a demonstration or on a test I will do it, but I don't make it a large habit just out of personal preference.

I have studied the mechanics and physics of breaking, and how much mass etc it takes to generate enough kinetic energy to break a certain number of boards or bricks though.

Rob

Chazz

04-Mar-2002, 04:37 PM

In our schools we are required to break starting at green belt. (wood) Once we reach black belt we do wood and brick.

The only way that we practice for breaks is by conditioning. Through punching and so on into rice, beans, and sand we work on the hand. Kicking hard focus pads and heavy canvis bags we work on our feet and arms. Then when we feel like we are ready we move to the real stuff

-Chazz

Andy Murray

08-Mar-2002, 08:47 AM

So you guys have all practiced breaking!

What do you feel are the benefits?

Any bad experiences?

Tips/tricks?

waya

08-Mar-2002, 09:43 AM

I don't know of alot of benefits myself... I have had a few bad experiences before I learned about how mass has a major role in generating the energy to break. I nearly shattered my wrist breaking bricks once....
This is one of the breakdowns I have read.

AIM:- The object you are breaking should be hit in the exact center for a successful break. This is especially true when you break harder objects.

SPEED:- It is not the amount of 'muscle' which you hit the object with, it's the speed at which you hit it that matters. You can produce just as much power by striking the object at a higher speed whilst using less 'muscle'. This is shown in a basic physics equation:-

Power = Force/Time

Also, when the object is hit at a higher velocity, the energy from your striking limb is transferred to the block more quickly like a 'short, sharp shock', thus breaking it more easily. To achieve such a velocity, your body must be totally relaxed so the limb can move freely.

A second physics equation gives another reason as to why you should increase the speed of your technique:-

Energy = 1/2Mass x Velocity2

Here, by doubling the velocity (speed) of your technique the energy produced quadruples allowing you to break more

As well as staying relaxed, you can increase the speed of your technique by allowing the striking limb to travel further. By travelling further, the striking limb can travel faster and produce more energy:-

Force = Mass x Distance

When you use these principles to produce more energy and thus more force and put the greatly increased force values into the equation at the start of this section and in the 'AREA' section, you can see how much more power can be produced resulting in incredible breaking feats.

FOCUS:- When you break, it is vital that you go through the object that you are breaking. This allows you to strike the object at full force due to the body's natural reaction of flinching. You must trick your mind into thinking that the object is further back than it really is. If you don't aim through the object and you stop on it, you will experience much more pain than otherwise if the object doesn't break. This is because your striking limb absorbs all the energy instead of the object. This energy is translated into pain. Once you start feeling this pain when breaking, your body flinches more and you stop on the board more, thereby increasing the amount of pain. This produces a fear of breaking. If this happens, reduce the amount you are breaking until you are comfortable with it. Work your way back up from there.

AREA:- The object you are breaking should be struck with the smallest possible area of your body. This will produce more downwards pressure on the board, thus successfully breaking it.
Again, thanks to simple physics, we can see why

Pressure = Force/Area

If you want to get into it really detailed try this site http://hometown.aol.com/karatephysics/PhysicsofBreaking.html

Rob

Andy Murray

08-Mar-2002, 11:44 AM

Anyone confirm or deny rumours of 'doctoring' the objects to be broken during demo's?

Anybody else injured themselves whilst attempting a break?

Anyone on the Pro-Breaking side want to comment. Surely acheiving a substantial break boosts confidence in your technique?

Thomas Vince

08-Mar-2002, 03:09 PM

Andy,
I have seen some really intelligent ways to weaken structures so they can be broken. With bricks or concrete blocks, they simply need to be heated over a campfire or a fireplace, kiln and the fire takes all the water out of the object drying it out and making it crumble. Pine boards are my favorite, dry them out and the pine resin turns to dust and the tree of the board looses it's ability to flex!
In fact since my students were so aware of this one young man said to me Mr. Vince I have seen some breaking demonstrations before of tile bricks and other materials but I have never seen anyone toss a brick into the air and break it. Well I asked him what the difference would be if the brick were heated all I would need to do was hit it. He said no let us inspect it and then throw it up in the air and demonstrate real power by snapping in half. I though about this for awhile and decided that a fire bricks the type used in fireplaces and is in fact the color red was just impossible to break, unless your Van Dam in Blood Sport and truly know the Dim Mak of the Tanake Clan! So I asked my students what type of brick or block unheated would be most impressive if someone could break it with a punch. We all decided on a foundation brick. This is the type of brick that has a supported infrastructure and is a dense mixture of concrete, sand and water. THe rules were that a student would go to a home center or garden supply, building center and purchase a foundation brick that was obviously very heavy. You see that's the key mass is weight and if you pick something up and it is featherweight than it is logically or in theory easy to break. Well I imeediately found it impossible for me to break this foundation brick when it was in a full piece. You can't break it with a strike from a "splitting Mall" a tool used to split whole peices of wood and you could smash it with a single attack froma jack hammer. I guess that it why they use foundation bricks to build the foundations of all homes and commecial buildings. So what I did is after one of the students purchased a new brick, very heavy I took a hammer and slowly cracked it apart at the top , bottom and mid-section supporting frame on film so no-one would doubt the actual strength of this brick. After that I simply picked up one half of the foundation brick, had a few students hold a blanket under the brick so it would not damage the floor when it fell. The point of all of this that a snap is much more powerful than a thrust punch, energy is focesed into the target completed without the bodies ability to recoil and soften the blow. The reason we should use thrust punches is to stop the entire frontal action of the opponent. Anyway the whole thing is on video if you would like a copy let me know.
Sincerely,
Thomas Vince
IKKA

Andy Murray

08-Mar-2002, 03:15 PM

Love to see it Thomas. Would be even better for the site if Cooler or Ghostsuit could 'Mpeg' a snippet and attach it to the magazine!

Cooler?

Ghostsuit?

This possible?

Thomas Vince

08-Mar-2002, 03:23 PM

More like a streaming video and if they will tell me what needs to be done it's all yours Andy. It was important for documented history that be no breaks in the video so that it was beleivable. I am sure that if someone wanted more proff I could arrange for a copy to be sent to them from 1 to finish.
Yours in the POWER of Kenpo,
Thomas

Ghostsuit

08-Mar-2002, 07:54 PM

Well if you have the film as a mpeg or something like that then we should be able to sort something out. The main problems are size depends on how long the film is and as usual bandwidth that would be taken up by it.

Still shouldn't be a problem.

Thomas Vince

09-Mar-2002, 04:36 AM

Okay,
How about I take it to a photo shop to see if they can digitalize the short film clippings into one. I 'll ask them to put it into mpeg or jpeg. This will all depend on the cost, but I will check it out, Today is Friday, I'll check it out on monday.
Thomas

Cooler

09-Mar-2002, 01:10 PM

Sounds good cheers Thomas

Cooler

Chazz

10-Mar-2002, 06:35 PM

In what ways do you all condition your body (hands feet) for a break, or do you all just break a lot?

-Chazz

Andy Murray

13-Mar-2002, 02:22 PM

I don't know if you would call this 'conditioning' Chazz, but here's a thing.

I bang away at things with my knuckles; floors, pillars, walls & small children. With a view to keeping the hand used to impact. Most people who hurt themselves during 'breaking', hurt themselves because they are afraid of hurting themselves. If you are not afraid of hurting yourself, then you will commit all your power into the strike. A by-product of this methodology, is that the skin toughens up a bit any way.

I have seen guys with half inch thick callous on their knuckles, but if I had to generate that sort of destruction with my hands, I would rather poke someone in the eye!

So I would say that; if the above is conditioning, then it's mainly mental conditioning.

Breaking is not a big thing in my style anyway.

If I really want to break something, I give it to my little girl anyway!

Andy Murray

19-Mar-2002, 03:47 AM

Anyone else got any thoughts or tips on breaking?

wayofthedragon

16-Nov-2002, 05:22 AM

I'd like to know, first of all whether your style practices breaking?

In my training I did not practice breaking at all

If you do not practice breaking, then do you have a reason?

I don't have a particular reason for not practicing breaking, my instructor just didn't require us to, or did any of it. Though I do know the principles of breaking boards, I never actually did it.
However, I don't feel as if it's important to do so, that's just my oppinion though. How would I know, I never broke a board:D

Cain

16-Nov-2002, 05:48 AM

Umm....I just used to break bricks with the heel of my palm when I was a kid.
Our class does not really include breaking but my senior partner helps me with that.

He had once given me a push-ups routine to do -

push- ups on the heel of your palm and also plyometrics push-ups where you push yourself off the floor and land on your heels.

push-ups on the outside of your palms but I have'nt tried plyometrics in these kind of push-ups.

But then I don't know much since I have only two years experience as a martial artist :D
|Cain|

TkdWarrior

16-Nov-2002, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Andy Murray
I'd like to know, first of all whether your style practices breaking.

yup it's in curriculum

If you do practice breaking, then what do you feel are the benefits?

dont' practice breaking but i can do breaking...no benefits for that matter may be some ego boost...

If you do not practice breaking, then do you have a reason?

well i hav reason it hurts :p....
-TkdWarrior-

LilBunnyRabbit

16-Nov-2002, 03:21 PM

We used to do breaking (with rebreakable boards, cheaper) for anyone over sixteen at gradings. They stopped it for various reasons. It was fun, but I don't really regret not doing it any more.

As has been said, boards don't hit back. They are also nothing like hitting a person. However that does not mean that learning to break them is a bad thing, its enjoyable, and it makes for great demonstrations.

Someone commented that you could break someone's forearm if they're trying to stab you by stepping off and throwing a hammer strike downwards. This is true, so long as you can break a board in mid-air with a hammer strike. Otherwise of course their arm will move to absorb the blow. Another option would be to catch their wrist and throw the strike, then the arm is supported from two directions and if you don't break their arm, you're likely to dislocate or severely damage their elbow and shoulder.

So I would say that; if the above is conditioning, then it's mainly mental conditioning.

Definitely, same instincts as stop most people from punching brick walls as hard as they can are the ones that try to stop you from breaking.

By travelling further, the striking limb can travel faster and produce more energy:-

Force = Mass x Distance

Actually that equation refers to the force required to move an object of said mass over said distance, the force isn't cumulative. If you push a car at, say, two miles per hour for ten metres you're generating no more force when the car impacts than you would pushing it for a mile. You're just putting more force into the movement of the car in order to overcome friction and other reducing effects.

Anyone on the Pro-Breaking side want to comment. Surely acheiving a substantial break boosts confidence in your technique?

Definitely. Breaking a board is a huge confidence booster.

The point of all of this that a snap is much more powerful than a thrust punch, energy is focesed into the target completed without the bodies ability to recoil and soften the blow.

Surely the most powerful of all would be to hit with a good impact and continue on through? Its important to remember that a thrust punch does more than just continue on through and allow the body to recoil and soften the blow, it also penetrates quite nicely to the internal organs if you're hitting a soft target, and if you're hitting a hard target the original impact should carry as much force as a snap punch would anyway (more if you pull your hand back after the snap). Overall they both involve pretty similar amounts of power in the impact, but the followthrough and thus damage is different. Remember that a snap tends to cause pain, a thrust tends to cause more actual damage.

paul paterson

23-May-2003, 09:57 PM

Osu.

TAMESHIWARI - the spirit of force or the art of breaking.

Tameshiwari, the art of breaking certain objects with parts of your body. However it is much more than this. Tameshiwari is the true spirit of sheer and absolute force.

Tameshiwari is a true and excellent way of testing spirit and basic martial technique. Unfortunately, it has also been misrepresented and misunderstood by the general public and by many martial artist / karateka alike. Tameshiwari is not karate, or any other art, although it is important, it serves as a barometer of aquired strength and technique allows the artist to expand total effort and energy on an inanimate object.

Tameshiwari has a zen-like simplicity to it. The student confronts the challenge of breaking the material by him or herself. The challenge lasts only for a split second, the student must understand the material to be broken, and as the Zen master would say, the student must "become one" with the object and must have " a mind like water " - in other words our thoughts must be pure of thought and must be clear as crystal.

Breaking is one of the most dramatic and devistating ways of demonstrating the awesome power of the martial arts. Few sports or art forms have actions as graphic as breaking hard solid objects. There are many types or kinds of breaks which require the student to develop a lot more than just power, eg. floating breaks, where the target is suspended in the air or floating on water; they require great speed and focus. Air breaks; where the target is actually free failling, this requires precision and timing too.

To condition our body we hit other hard objects, this sound silly and serves no purpose. Wrong,- thats where the lack of knowledge is from the lack of knowing what is going on with the mind, the body and so on. The art of breaking requires exceptional balance, form, concentration of spirit, and calmness. It is a challenge to the ability of the student and will test the limits of his or her strength. It should always be used to encourage and assist the artist in his or her basic practice and serves on as a tool for the benefit of the student.

This is only the tip of the iceberg of breaking and as the artist / student becomes more confidant with his or her own experience, then so does the type of breaks and also the same can be said for the danger.

Osu.

Paul Paterson.

paul paterson

25-May-2003, 09:06 PM

Osu.

"Some people say that beaking is a waste of time. Technically, it may not be neccessary to break, but it will help you learn how to punch and kick with the right parts of your body. If your technique is not right and you don't have any power, how are you going to defend yourself?"

Gary Pitts
taken from "Martial Art" June 2003

Osu.

Paul Paterson.

Kwan Jang

25-May-2003, 11:51 PM

-I feel that while breaking can definitely overdone, it does have it's benefits. I feel that to beginners breaking can be very empowering. Also, for intermediate students, breaking can help them to learn to hit with focus and penetration. In my own training, I removed breaking for many years and basically looked down on it due to the ego factor. It reminds me of point fighting in that way. I kind of "threw out the baby w/ the bath water". Just because it's overdone and many do it for the wrong reasons does not mean there is not value to it. I found that some of my students that regularly train full force strikes on muay thai shields and pads still lacked penetration and the breaking helped them w/ this. For myself, unsupported breaks and breaking one brick within a stack while not damaging the others can give an ocasional challange and variety to my own training(though I admit I'm nowhere near the expert that some of the guys at the ISKA Creative Breaking competition at the US Open that plays on ESPN2 from time to time. If you ever get a chance watch the re-runs, some of these guys are really good at what they do).

KickChick

27-May-2003, 02:13 AM

Yes breaking is a very important requirement at our school.

We break 1 inch pine boards ...power and speed breaks. I am personally working on a 5 board break.

We use hands, feet and elbows.

I personally love it ... not only physical but mental as well,
when I am not in the right frame of mind... or do not "see" that board break... it doesn't.

Sonshu

28-May-2003, 01:27 PM

I have done - cant say I have had any training in it but I found even thick boards were fairly easy to break with little or no damage to me.

I have to say there is in shows a lot of mental preperation that seems to go into board breaks and I don't have time if I am attacked to do this.

Do people here need the time to psyche themselves up or is this show? I dont know but did not need any special psyche to break what people said were hard boards.

Your call?

SONSHU

sfjohn

25-Jun-2003, 11:01 PM

I don't know any benefits that i have recieved from breaking. I mostly do breaking the easy stuff like boards and bricks for show. When I do it for myself I do the hard things like river stones. The trick breaking is to know the properties of the thing you are trying to break. There are very differnt aspects in breaking boards or bricks or stones. I don't really enjoy breaking and therefore I will only go so far in this field of martial arts, but when I do break it is to test myself, my mind (there's a benefit). To test yourself make the break hard to do. What I mean by this is take out the spacers inbetween boards and bricks and then break them. Hold a board in one hand and break it with the other. Just start breaking eerything. You see a clay flower pot that is yours, break it. If your out camping and need to get wood for the fire, don't do it the easy way the eay way throug leverage, brake it with your hand. There is only one thing that I have left to break and that is a wrench. I want to do this because my teacher has done it, do I know how to not yet, but I will learn. Oh just so you know, when breaking river stones, make sure they are dry and nice and smooth. Focus your attention on sending the force to the core of the stone so it breaks from the inside out. Start out with little ones and then as your conditioning gets better, increase them in size. You probable won't get it because i can't show you, but if you really want to learn how to break a rock I suppose I can make a little video and send it out. I think it would be kind of cool if your into demos and all that stuff. I know it's always been a big people pleaser when they pass me on the beach. Well, we will see.

Kat

26-Jun-2003, 02:29 AM

At present breaking is not part of any training that I do.

Previously however I had been involved with a style that included within its cirriculium the breaking of 1 inch pine borads.The difference I found was the focus on what our instructor called "Spot Breaking" or "Walk Throughs".

This is the breaking of borads in quick sucsession held by others(usually head height) using techniques that were common in practise(vertical punch etc).There was no use of "gathering Qi" or "psycing up" just do it.The goal not being of any numbered amount (ususally just one board) of borads just to keep breaking as to maintian a constant of speed and power.

In order to practise we started with the usual hammer fist doward break on 1 board. I remember my first try,in which the impact bent the board half way,I stopped, disappointed that it wasn't a clean break.My instructor simply said "Why stop? its not broken yet."I realized how our style was not trying to achieve everthing in one blow but to bring each blow up to a constant power and speed.

While I see not much use in breaking now, I agree with others that the benefits are largely in mental determination and focus,the experience and training was well worth it.

KickChick

26-Jun-2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by sfjohn
You probable won't get it because i can't show you, but if you really want to learn how to break a rock I suppose I can make a little video and send it out. I think it would be kind of cool if your into demos and all that stuff.

.... very cool!
I'd be willing to learn ... and try it!

I've only broken pine boards, although student at our school have gone on to ice, concrete, tiles, and fire breaks. (demos only)

I have been using the "board holder" ,.... the "metal monster" we call it, wherein you can strap boards together for multiple breaks.
(3 boards and over) Now working on 6.

Have done the speed breaks (holding board with other hand) and never did the spacers (just too easy)

Psche yourself to break?.... No but I do believe you need to be in the "right" frame of mind. There have been times when I just wasn't "seeing" the board break and would stop short of going past it.... nothing I could do to get technique and your mind in sync for the break and I believe that is the key!

Thomas

26-Jun-2003, 02:28 PM

We do breaking at color belt tests for new colors: between yellow-green (front kick), green-blue (side), blue-red (back), and every red belt test has a spinning heel kick break.

Black belts break at every tip test and dan test, multiple station breaks and usually choice of techniques (hands or feet).

We don't practice them in class much, aside from an occassionaly re-breakable board practice.

Why do we do them:
(1) develop speed and accuracy
(2) build confidence in knowing your technique will work
(3) at color belt level to provide further motivation to practice certain techniques
(4) At black belt level to open up creative breaks and provide a good model for junior students.

SOMETIMES for charity we hold our board break a thon and donate the money to needy causes

Tosh

27-Jun-2003, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by Sonshu

Do people here need the time to psyche themselves up or is this show?

A requirement of most UKTF/UKTA/BITF Black belts (as far as my memory serves me correctly) is to be able to break with no measure to the target.
I.e Walk up to the target and be able to break on someone elses command. This was mainly done to practice genrating power while sparring. One person (the breaker) bouncing on the toes, another calling the strike. The object is for the breaker to react and break to reduce any "preperation time" the student may previously have needed as a beginner.
Personally, I enjoy breaking. Demos and training. It used to plaugue me for years, especially since my strongest breaking leg has been on the recieing end of some horrendous ligament tears. Breaking managed to reinstore faith in my ankle's ability to deliver a blow forcefully after injury.

Tosh

27-Jun-2003, 08:47 PM

It's interesting people always complain about it not being a moving target.... why not make it move then? I've been led a meerry dance around a hall trying to air-break (a break with the board held usually by the top by fingertips in mid air) a board while the holder moved around as in a sparring situation. Now granted you have to be pretty special to break anything serious here but it does solve the complaint of the target is not moving.

I think in the majority of British TKD schools breaking is more to do with confidence of correct techinque rather than a display of power. This is especially true with techique that involve any kind of spin as, inevietably, the student loses sight of the target.

I am Pro breaking, although I prefer Plastic re-breakable boards for one main reason.

If the student doesn't hit the target on the line (with an undamaged/new board) it makes it more difficult to break. Alos you can hit wood with any attacking tool, with enough force, it will break. Plastic requires a little more precision in choice of tool in relation to technique.

neryo_tkd

06-Jan-2004, 02:45 PM

there are really good posts here, so i won't be repeating the stuff that has already been said.

i would just like to add that we have to break boards when being tested for certain belts. the way we have to break them changes with the belts. for example, when using the hand, sometimes there is someone to hold the board for you, sometimes you have to throw it up and hit it with the same hand on it's way down etc

i personally love breaking. i still have pieces of my first broken board. i was sooo proud of myself. although my instructor has told us many things on how boads should be broken, it's still only theory, but when u manage to put theory to practice, the feeling is really great.