Destruction/ Power testing

[Tosh]

Just thought I'd start a no doubt explosive thread.

What have you:

1) Broken for testing/grading
2) Broken for "fun"??

and finally

3) The most impressive break/ aerial techinque

- You've seen
- Heard about
- Heard rumours about


For my one of my favourits is the two brick air break performed by Master John Williamson VII recently :cool:

Similar to this one by Master Paul Cutler VII

[YODA]

Hi

I realise this is the TKD forum and I have NO experience of TKD so my views are not at all relevant - but here they are anyway :D

What have I broken for grading/testing?

Nothing apart from fingers, toes, my nose etc :D

Seriously though - I feel breaking inanimate objects is worthless (no doubt someone will quote Bruce Lee so i won't)

Breaking is as far removed from actual fighting ability as musical forms competition is (There's another explosive thread in the making Hehehee).

[TkdWarrior]

hi tosh spice welcome here... :)
as such i hav broken nothing for gradings
but broken teeths jaws ribs not for fun,
once we(i was about 12 yr old) were playing n exchanged couple of punches :) i got bleeding nose n he got teeth broken(that was before MA)
most impressive was one russian BB girl who broke board in 360 kick in World championship good enuff for me to hook up with MA :D yea i had crush on her :D ;)
rumored...um was from Master Hee li cho(two fingered cho, guess got the name rite) he broke a wine bottle(after getting drunk) n bust his fingers too
-TkdWarrior-

[Tosh]

As far as I'm concerned breaking is a test of accuracy rather than than showing "fighting ability" for striking techinques at least how do you ever know what's going to be effective if you cannot hit the mark with power??


At least that's the way I was taught to respect breaking... I know others will differ :)

[YODA]

how do you ever know what's going to be effective if you cannot hit the mark with power??



By putting protective gear on and sparring - that's how.

Hitting the mark with power when "the mark" is not trying to do the same to you is not a good indicator.

[simonlarcombe]

Just for fun I thought I'd reply. Again nothing to do with TKD I'm afraid.

I was told about a video (how third party is that!) introducing Qi Gong by the Shoalin Monks. Apparently at the beginning one guy breaks a bottle without touching it (mind you David Blaine can do that!).

Also read a book about internal arts, apparently one master in Ba Gua could break concrete blocks just by walking on them.

[johndoch]

I suppose its like the way of the samurai when a man commits seppuka (suicide by stabbing their own stomach) a Kaishaku must chop their head off after the knife goes in. Its a great dishonor not to lop the head off first time. Just like breaking boards?????? I dont know where that came from it must be friday

[YODA]

I've got answers to both of those stunts Simon. And both involve bovine extretia :p

There's $1,000,000 waiting over at the James Randi Educational Foundation for anyone that can break that bottle without touching it :D

[stump]

Damn yoda you beat me to it!!!

As Yoda said sparring is the best route. You normally aren't required to hit something/someone when things are hunky dorey. If you ever do have to hit you'll be most likely hitting a moving target, probably a moving target trying to hit you.

Personally I really enjoy breaking...but i'm not under any illusions that it helps my training

My favourite breaking moment was when at the Bercy Martial arts festival shown on Eurosport a few years ago, Bas Rutten came on after the TKD people had been doing a breaking demo.....took a board and calmly broke it over his head.

It was priceless!!!! To say he ruffled a few feathers is putting it mildly :D

[YODA]

LOL! I saw that :D

Did you see the one where he broke the "board" that was between two piles of bricks? Hillarious :D

[simonlarcombe]

$1,000,000! Right, I'm going to give up work today and dedicate myself to full time practice...

Woo hoo, I'm gonna be rich!

[YODA]

Originally posted by simonlarcombe
$1,000,000! Right, I'm going to give up work today and dedicate myself to full time practice...

Woo hoo, I'm gonna be rich!



Go for it dude.

Here's all the info you need...

James Randi is gonna make Simon RICH RICH RICH!!! (http://www.randi.org/research/)

[stump]

Didn't see the one you're talking about. In the demo i saw he just put it over his head and snapped it.

Are those Bercy martial arts demos still going? If so are they still shown on Eurosport?

[simonlarcombe]

LOL

[Tosh]

Originally posted by YODA

Hitting the mark with power when "the mark" is not trying to do the same to you is not a good indicator.

That's why I said it was a test of power /w accuracy - not fighting ability.

I completely agree sparring is the way to go for fighting ability. and is my favourite aspect of TKD :)

However, from a TKD perspective in a fighting situation (bearing in mind I've done very little in other arts) I HAVE to rely on my first strike (or second if countering) being the hardest most effective one I can serve up.

I know all too well the consequences of in-fighting and grappling when i have little or no regular training in any of these arts. :)

Another point I should of mentioned was the old "woodsman and tools" analogy. By regularly practising destruction I ensure that the tools I use for the job punch, knifehand & backfist are readily prepared for the job in hand. God knows I'd hate to try and hit someone only for my to break my hand.

I have to comment on the old "crappy" breaking front. :)

The worst one I saw was an instructror who "doctored" a board. He performed a jumping side kick only for the board to fly through the air and break to two clean parts on the ground. This was in front of aboput 300 people who *still* all went berserk.
:confused:

[Tosh]

As an addition I'd like to point out in the school sI have been to we all used plastic re-breakable boards

not

"wafer thin, dried up boards to be broken with shrieks of fury"

IMO WOOD is for aerial techs and fancy show off stuff as it shows no convincing mark of accuray when it breaks anywhere along the grain.

With a brand new breaker board it only breaks easily if you break it along the center. Thus promoting accuracy.

Just my pound twenty

[Freeform]

i heard of a local Karate guy who was putting on a display of breaking in public, only to have someone replace one of his boards. It turned out to be the 3rd of 5 and the guy couldn't break it and eventually broke his hand!

Doen the hospittal he was reputed to have said 'I don't understand, I baked that thing for at least 3hrs last night'.

LOL

[YODA]

I was once picked out of crowd to hold a board for a guy that was going to break it with a side kick. The board was supprisingly thin!

When he bounced off it & failed he shouted at ME and told the whole place that it was because I hadn't held it tight enough. Grrrr......

So - he told me to hold it as tight as I could - so I did - and snapped it :D

Crowd = not impressed Hehehe....

[Tosh]

:D

LOL, I've also seen the instructors use "the force"

I.e. Board falls out of holder and breaks on the ground - fnar

[johndoch]

There must be some out there who can genuinely break strong materials. What about the meditative side of chillin out then suddenly breaking something like a brick(s).

Is meditation an important part of serious breaking?

[Tosh]

Depends what you mean my strong materials??

Mahogany :D

The people who I know how "break big" are concentratiing on getting the techinque right rather than calling on any "higher power".

and I'm talking about london house bricks here.

For me bricks are the most impressive. Slates break whereever you hit them so you are talking about amounts.

As i said earlier wood=aerial

[johndoch]

Depends on the the type of brick though as clay bricks can be quite brittle, whereas engineering bricks are a different kettle of fishes.

I would be really impressed if someone could break a solid lump of metal.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by johndoch
I would be really impressed if someone could break a solid lump of metal.


None if seens bar from the old "Shoalin Monks" metal bar off the head caper if seen

[johndoch]

Oh yeah I remember a mad monk hitting a bar off his head on a video some time ago. Although I cant remember if the bar broke.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Broke a security door lock when the office door at work sealed itself and refused to open. That was with a heel front kick though.

[Andy Murray]

If you feel you personally get something out of breaking, I see nothing wrong with that, so long as you know what it is you are getting.

Hopefully, you are not creating any illusions of power for yourself. While there are tricks involved in breaking, it is certainly better to spend more of your time learning the 'trick' of hitting people, rather than inanimate objects IMHO.

Just my two withered Haggis worth :)

[Darzeka]

You don't need power in your strikes anyway.

Accuaracyis all important. Strike the temple with a moderate force and you will pop out the eye, punch stab the throat lightly and they will falter, looking for breathe - hard enough and you crush the wind pipe.

Rather than hit the hard parts of thier body hard hit the soft bits of thier body reasonably hard - much better results.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Darzeka
You don't need power in your strikes anyway.

Accuaracyis all important. Strike the temple with a moderate force and you will pop out the eye, punch stab the throat lightly and they will falter, looking for breathe - hard enough and you crush the wind pipe.

Rather than hit the hard parts of thier body hard hit the soft bits of thier body reasonably hard - much better results.


Accuracy is imprtant yes - but..... pop out the eye? LOL! I think not!

Personally I like to combine both - i.e. hit the soft parts as hard as possible - with accuracy :D

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Accuaracyis all important. Strike the temple with a moderate force and you will pop out the eye, punch stab the throat lightly and they will falter, looking for breathe - hard enough and you crush the wind pipe.

And you can hit these areas with complete confidence while both of you are moving at full speed, they're actively trying to hit you, and more importantly they're actively trying to block and dodge?

Power in strikes is essential, yes a slight tap to a pressure point on the arm may take out that arm, but you've only got a square inch target at most. Surely its better simply to dump a huge amount of power straight into their head or body?

[YODA]

And you can hit these areas with complete confidence while both of you are moving at full speed, they're actively trying to hit you, and more importantly they're actively trying to block and dodge?

Carefull Jimmy - that sounds awfully like sparring to me :D

(((Just kidding Jimbo)))

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Well, take out the trying to hit you and you've got defense drills. *shrug*

[Darzeka]

Okay I'm not talking about pressure points, only soft part of the body.

Why strike the head? It's all bone, I'd do just as much damage to me as my opponent and besides everyone defends it too well.

Go to strike places like the shoulders, hips, thighs, calfs, neck, throat, back, solar plexus, inside the elbow (funny bone), under the arms, Armpits, out side of the ribs (under the arms), groin, breasts if a woman, knees. These places are all very easy to hit and to cause pain don't require you hit like a frieght train - it helps though.

I will hit as hard as possible, I will also try to expose these areas as well, grab the lead blocking hand, twist, pull and you have full selection just about anything on the head, neck, back, etc.

I fight with no rules and will have no qualms about doing anything to leave you in a crumpled heap while I walk off calmly to my car. I train with this in mind but don't use these extremes.

The temple was just an example of the idea of hit a vulnerable pain center with whatever force is available rather than hit some random target with enough force to break concrete.

I will also target areas that will immobilse people. Ever given someone a dead arm or leg? Takes little effort but now they can't mov ethe arm, go for that spot, if you miss the point then they get a sore arm, makes it harder to move - think repeated Muay Thai thigh kicks, you can't walk - hit the front of the shoulder, very painful, possible to damage the shoulder. Why just target the engine when shooting the wheels is that much eaiser.

Just think like a spike strip in a high speed chase.

[Greyghost]

i've broken boards and the 'break' board...i would have to say that the break board is harder to break than the timber....

i remember having a beer with me mates in the garden ...and one of my mates broke a timber board over his head ...much to my amusement.

best break i have seen was a chap at an exhibtion who broke a brick with a rolled up newspaper.

that was good.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Why strike the head? It's all bone, I'd do just as much damage to me as my opponent and besides everyone defends it too well.

Then why do people get hit in it so much? On the head you've got a nose to break/shatter/crush, eardrums to burst, teeth to break, and more importantly inside you've got a brain to bounce around and disorient/knock out someone.


Go to strike places like the shoulders, hips, thighs, calfs, neck, throat, back, solar plexus, inside the elbow (funny bone), under the arms, Armpits, out side of the ribs (under the arms), groin, breasts if a woman, knees. These places are all very easy to hit and to cause pain don't require you hit like a frieght train - it helps though.

Shoulders don't cause particular pain unless you either hit hard or hit a pressure point, shoulders are in fact one of the favourite places to take punches due to the muscle. Hips might make good targets, but since one of your complaints about the head was that it was solid bone how does that change with hips? Thighs, calves, and knees I'm counting as legs to save time. Good targets. Outside the ribs again, a good target. Most of them are. However, I'd love to see you knock someone out or even severely disorient them with a kick to the thigh.


I will hit as hard as possible, I will also try to expose these areas as well, grab the lead blocking hand, twist, pull and you have full selection just about anything on the head, neck, back, etc.

You can try and grab my blocking hand if you want, and I'm sure it goes for a lot of others out there, but you will get hurt for doing it. Remember that you're also cutting the number of hands you've got to play with by one.


I fight with no rules and will have no qualms about doing anything to leave you in a crumpled heap while I walk off calmly to my car. I train with this in mind but don't use these extremes.

I don't bother about rules either, but I've got no qualms against hitting someone in the head.


The temple was just an example of the idea of hit a vulnerable pain center with whatever force is available rather than hit some random target with enough force to break concrete.

Its still a fast moving small target. Better to hit a random target with enough force to break concrete than miss a small target. Better still to hit the general area of that small target with enough force to break concrete.


I will also target areas that will immobilse people. Ever given someone a dead arm or leg? Takes little effort but now they can't mov ethe arm, go for that spot, if you miss the point then they get a sore arm, makes it harder to move - think repeated Muay Thai thigh kicks, you can't walk - hit the front of the shoulder, very painful, possible to damage the shoulder. Why just target the engine when shooting the wheels is that much eaiser.

Great, if you want a prolonged, impressive fight. Personally I just want to throw a couple of techniques, get them dazed, and get out of there. Shooting the wheels is easier, yes, but how many people do you know with tyres?

[Tosh]

Hmmmm,


Can't help but think this thread is beginning to waver slightly??

Didn't this start with what with/how uch /who have you heard breaking the most??

I certainly didn't expect it to mutate into a discussion about vital spots :D

[LilBunnyRabbit]

But we're still talking about breaking, just bone this time. And destruction definitely comes into it. :D

[Tosh]

But we're still talking about breaking, just bone this time. And destruction definitely comes into it.

Yep but a "tools for the job" discussion is a completley different can of worms.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

How about hitting people with boards?

[TkdWarrior]

not a bad idea for a change jimmy
-TkdWarrior-

[Tosh]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
How about hitting people with boards?

I dunno...... my students seem to hit the holder more than the boards sometimes??

Talk about "ugging" techniques.

[pgm316]

It has gone off thread a bit, but with regard to hitting head, it's so easy to break your knuckles doing that. I've never known anybody to break knuckles on a board, but quite a few on somebodies head.

Thats the problem hitting to the head, the forehead being the strongest (i think) bone in the body. The head has some good targets, but if they suddenly tuck their chin in boxing style you could easily find yourself with a broken hand!

Why not hit somebodies arms, if your struggling to get past their defences try throwing a few kicks at their guard. Could be a bad strategy if they decide to batter you instead of being defensive though! :D

[Tosh]

Originally posted by pgm316
[B]It has gone off thread a bit, but with regard to hitting head, it's so easy to break your knuckles doing that. I've never known anybody to break knuckles on a board, but quite a few on somebodies head.

Errm I'll go for the hand breaking first!!

A hand breaking on boards can happen and I've seen it happen in class. Plastic breaker board can be an absolute unrepenting ***** if you hit them wrong. :(

Hey, that's what I was saying earlier about breaking the target not your hand woohooo.

That's actually another good question about forging... 'll start another thread....yeee hhaaaa thread animal.....:woo: :woo:

[johndoch]

One of the biggest boxing injuries is not broken knuckles/hand but broken or sprained wrists. The cause being poor alignment of the fist.

[Tosh]

That makes sense since the traget has some give in it the wrist joint will be the first to go.

With breaker boards it just doesn't move so you get a good 33% of the enegry you pu into the techique right back up your hand/foot

33% of 250 pounds per square inch = Yaroooo! :D

[Darzeka]

Most people hit in the head because the don't get taught not to, most people have no fighting/Martial arts experience and think hits to the head are the way to go.

Oh and if you want out of the fight quickly then break their knee, not too hard to do and then they can't walk. You daze someone and they can still function or may take about ten hits to do properly.

Oh and about that Bruce Lee quote "boards don't hit back" they actually do - when you hit something it hits your striking surface with equal and opposite force. They just aren't trying to hit you or moving.

I think if I started breaking things with strikes I'd try to make it just find a random object and break it, not set it up in the easiest way to break it possible. I'd probably break something but then I'd not try it in the first place.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Oh and about that Bruce Lee quote "boards don't hit back" they actually do - when you hit something it hits your striking surface with equal and opposite force. They just aren't trying to hit you or moving.

Sort of, but you only take the full brunt if the board neither moves nor breaks. If it does one of the two then it absorbs some of the energy and lessens the backlash.

[Freeform]

Oh and about that Bruce Lee quote "boards don't hit back" they actually do - when you hit something it hits your striking surface with equal and opposite force.


Or they break, so they haven't.

[Darzeka]

no its still equal and opposite. Up until it breaks it is "hitting" your hand, when it breaks the rest of your energy travels past the object, having broken it.

It just isn't the full force of your strike but you get all the force you put into the board back into your hand. The harder the breaking substance the more force you need to apply quickly.

If you hit something and it doesn't break then all the force is redirected - you hit flush and it goes back into your hand. If it breaks you only get the amount of force that you put into the object up until the point of breakage. If you watched it in slow motion there would be a slight pause before your fist went through it as it broke. This pause is the same as hitting it and it didn't break but as more force is applied then it will break.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior

PS: tosh how many boards u had broken?


Okay brief rundown:

Plastic Re-breakable:

1 red/black=
Side kick left/right
Turning kick left/right
Reverve Turning kick left/right
punch left/right
knifehand left/right

2 red=
Side kick left right
back piercing left

I've managed two reds/blacks and a green/white (shoes on) with side kick and spinning back kick eith my "old faithful" left leg.

note:but to be fair one of those red board's is the entire class's "favourite" (i.e. it's been broken so often it's not a true red board. It's probably about a 3/4 red in power to break but you can hit it anywhere because the grooves have been worn

Wood: Loads!! on aerial techinques!!!

Trying to master a middle turning kick then high jumping reverse turning kick break for a demo in the future ....its nearly there. just can't get the accuaracy on the last kick right :mad:


Slates: 9 punch at a demo was 10 in pile. Thought that an axe kick to break the last one was clever.....after pieces of slate shot up my trouser leg I didn't think it was too clever :eek:

Brick: Couple now with the old stamping kick for my grading. Currently training for the knifehand strike for my II Dan.


How about yourself Tkdwarrior??? I have to admit breaking isn't my strongest part..... I was terrible at breaking untill about blue belt when I REALLY had to do it to pass :D

[TkdWarrior]

i told u tosh i never breake those boards...i prefer bones...i found them way much easier :D
red boards with a punch...??dude u got some good punch :)...
seriously those r hard to break when they r new ;)
actually i hav some injuries pre-MA time which doesn't allow me to break hard boards, :( they r mostly healed up but if i tried some adventures things it might turn out my mis adventure :(
that's why i prefer palming to fist in my attacks...
-TkdWarrior-

[Tosh]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior

actually i hav some injuries pre-MA time which doesn't allow me to break hard boards,


Yup, torn ligaments on both side of my ankle mean I can't shape my left foot too well ( enough though ;) )... and it always *clicks* when I rotate it. Reulst of hungover bball lgame..then coming back too quickly when it was still healing :mad:

Bust the cap on my left knuckle before I did TKD at work. Thought a box on top of a disp[ly at work was empty so i threw a really crappy hook at it.......*kerrching* found out it was full of wine bottles.... my knuckle inflated so big I couldn't get my hands in my pocket to get my bus fare after work....:eek:

Seen broken hands with forefist punch horrrible thing to happen. I don't do it (breaking with hands) too often as i've got this whole double jointed wrist thing going on which i'm not too fond of the repercussions if I tried to break 2 reds and failed :eek:

My friend from back home is an amazing "breaker" he weighs about 63kgs and can break a lot. His techinques really good 3 reds side kick & turning kick 2 reds punch.... the man is an animal. HIs knuckles are really caloused though. He calls them his prettieesssss....

If you hadn't guessed he's quite sick too!

[Tosh]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior
that's why i prefer palming to fist in my attacks...
-TkdWarrior-

Forgot to mention I'm more likely to punch first as I've done a lot of *hands only* sparring... however i've seen the damage a good index knuckle punch can do to the lips/teeth..... not pretty.

[TkdWarrior]

however i've seen the damage a good index knuckle punch can do to the lips/teeth..... not pretty.
but mate u havn't seen good palm hit...far more dangerous...
if u fist is not well enuff u too can hurt urself while doing to lips/teeth ;) that's soft way :D
-TkdWarrior-

[Tosh]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior

if u fist is not well enuff u too can hurt urself while doing to lips/teeth ;)
-TkdWarrior-

Of course :D

I actually did this *accidentely* when sparring my long time bud.

He had me on the back foot and caught me with an absolute rocket punch as I was about to hit him. I knew I was out of range and instinct took over so I extended the knuckle. The result was me pushing the thin skin under the lip area on to his teeth and the teeth cut a whole straight through. :eek:

I've never seen blood run so quickly out of a wound before....:eek: he could poke his tongue at the hole and you could see it from outside...

[HKD]

Originally posted by YODA
Hi

I realise this is the TKD forum and I have NO experience of TKD so my views are not at all relevant - but here they are anyway :D

What have I broken for grading/testing?

Nothing apart from fingers, toes, my nose etc :D

Seriously though - I feel breaking inanimate objects is worthless (no doubt someone will quote Bruce Lee so i won't)

Breaking is as far removed from actual fighting ability as musical forms competition is (There's another explosive thread in the making Hehehee).
i don't and never did like breaking bricks i did it coming through the ranks of tkd and hkd. U will have to in any korean art. there very big on breaking. i don't make my students do it cuz i don't think U get anything from it may be a small person may gain som confidence or a shy person but thats about it. BUT breaking can B fun the multipal board breaking that is.
as for the best break a class mate of mine once broke 5, 2 inch bricks with a ridge hand strike that was the most impressive thing he ever did.

HKD

[HKD]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior
hi tosh spice welcome here... :)
as such i hav broken nothing for gradings
but broken teeths jaws ribs not for fun,
once we(i was about 12 yr old) were playing n exchanged couple of punches :) i got bleeding nose n he got teeth broken(that was before MA)
most impressive was one russian BB girl who broke board in 360 kick in World championship good enuff for me to hook up with MA :D yea i had crush on her :D ;)
rumored...um was from Master Hee li cho(two fingered cho, guess got the name rite) he broke a wine bottle(after getting drunk) n bust his fingers too
-TkdWarrior-

U should look into some self-defense classes
HKD

[Tosh]

Originally posted by HKD

i don't make my students do it cuz i don't think U get anything from it.

Grumble, grumble, moan, complain moan moan

... except physical evidence you/the student can use a technique effectively, albeit in one extremely contrived situation, that you can deliver a powerful technique without injuring yourself...


blah, blah,blah....... breaking is a test of the students technique.

Am I the only person that defends breaking??

I'd like to start a thread about common myths of breaking. I mean I'm no expert on the matter but why would TKD and other arts continue to do it if there were no worth??

Sorry this is starting to sound like a rant......

Too much coursework.... tired need sleep :o

[Cain]

Anyone remember Bruce Lee in the big boss breaking a pile of bamboos?

As for my I broke a 1 inch stick and my forearm which had swollen for 4 days that was before MA I never tried breaking after that so I can't say wether it's good or bad

|Cain|

[HKD]

U don't need to break to deliver good technique, lots of things R done because they have always been done. if U read all of what i wrote U C i said it can B a confidence builder, but lets B real, if a 250LB guy breaks a 1 inch board what does he really gain from it. most of the time the student spends more time hitting the holder than the board.
HKD

[YODA]

I agree HKD. I see no value in breaking innanimate objects.

By the way (or BTW if you like) it takes two keys to write "be" just like it takes two to type B. :D

[Tosh]

Originally posted by HKD
, but lets B real, if a 250LB guy breaks a 1 inch board what does he really gain from it.
HKD

Okay being real ....

Assuming your 250lb guy can get his leg with enough power for 1 why would I make a 250 lb guy break one board?? Surely I'm going to make it different for each student taking into account their ability??

IMO if your not running "alive sparring" as YODA puts it how else do you test technique??

Again, breaking is a test that you are using the right attacking tool on a bag its far too easy to get away with "bad technique" without it being noticed

Unless you are doing alive sparring what makes you can throw a powerful technique safely.

I'm not saying it the answer, merely it is TKD's solution. I could go into the issues as to why it was developed... "eye for an eye" philosophy.

For me personally it gives me confidence I'm not just throwing techniques out into the void blindly without them going to do any damage.

[HKD]

true but Ur way is old fashioned :O)
must everyone pick on me about this, prince does it
HKD

[Tosh]

Originally posted by HKD
true but Ur way is old fashioned :O)
must everyone pick on me about this, prince does it
HKD


I would readily exchange it for some cheap method of testing force and technique - that way you could ensure less injuries.

I'm not picking on you :) I just always like batting for the underdog and breaking is widely disregarded too readily for my liking sometimes.

Anyway since this was my first thread I kinda feel responsible to it :woo: :woo:

[HKD]

im not trying to get U to stop doing it or anything many schools still do breaking and will always do it. and if i started training another art and i had to break i would, i wouldn't B to crazy about it but i would.
HKD
ps i looked on Ur site, on the members page which one R U?

[Tosh]

Originally posted by HKD

ps i looked on Ur site, on the members page which one R U?

The bloke in charge, head honcho, Dar Fuhrer, Nathan McIntosh

Basically, the instructor aint I pretty?? :D

[johndoch]

IMHO breaking is another tool which benefits the artist. I would say it teaches how to transfer your energy. People will say "but why hit an inanimated object?". I would answer "why do trainers hold the heavy bag steady". Its simply too teach the transfer of energy from the ground through your body to your striking tools. It teaches good form and correct alignment of your body at the same time.

Although breaking is against a stationary object you should use your imagination. Think this is where the head, groin, body etc. is then hit it as if you where sparring. Stay dynamic during breaking.

When sparring when you feign for example you will get a reaction watch this reaction. When you gain experience you will instinctively know where the board (in this case your opponents head) will be and all you have to do is HIT!!!.

Remember if you push the right buttons, your opponent might just as well be a board.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by johndoch
IMHO breaking is another tool which benefits the artist

You are preaching to the converted here Brother! :D

[HKD]

Originally posted by tosh_spice


Okay being real ....

Assuming your 250lb guy can get his leg with enough power for 1 why would I make a 250 lb guy break one board??

who said it wuld B a kick? U thinking like a TKD person, and i have seen more than a few 250 pounders that could kick pertty good. most schools that i have been to have a technique for each belt level. so that big guy is going to do the same thing as the little old man. i never say a school where each person did something defferent. don't get upset i have the right to think what just like U do.

HKD

[Cain]

I think board breakings hv a reason to be there in the martial arts otherwise why had they been practised over the ages if they were not good in any way..........?

|Cain|

[Tosh]

Originally posted by HKD

so that big guy is going to do the same thing as the little old man. U do.
HKD

This is the difference between grading requirements and actually asking the student to work to their potential. Just because that is all that required at that grade doesn't mean I can't push students.

I didn't mean that a 250lbs guy could kick well or just be just kicking. What I meant was that your 250lbs dude is moving fast enough to break then that's good enough to start :) , so another assumption I made was he was a beginner.

I'm not getting upset.....:confused: Sorry if it came across that way. Just having a discussion two differenrt opinions that's all. :)

.......er Merry Christmas!

[HKD]

yes and a merry f-ing christmas to U 2 :O)
i understan what Ur saying and i just thing differently. i will admit creative breaking is alot of fun i always enjoyed that alot.

HKD

[Andy Murray]

Ah yes......Breaking!

Shiny shell suits, big gold chains, skip hats on backwards, scratching vinyl, robotics, body popping n spinning on yer head.........great thread ;)

[HKD]

now we're talking!!
popping locking some of the kiddies may not know what this form of breaking is but it's cool

[Tosh]

Truly there is only one Grandmaster and he is called Flash!

[HKD]

that was good.
im trying to develop a martial art style based on break dancing, but kicking without shoe laces is causing a problem.

[Labatt]

My best break, would have to be.......a 360 jumping back spinning kick through 1 board , into a running jumping side kick, jumping over 10 people, breaking to boards in one strike.

[Andy Murray]

ONE strike???

[YODA]

There's an article here that you may find interesting....

http://www.randi.org/jr/08-10-01.html

[Labatt]

ONE strike, for each board.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by YODA
There's an article here that you may find interesting....

http://www.randi.org/jr/08-10-01.html


Anything can be prepared from boards to oppoents!! How many times have we seen so-called self defence demonstratoins that are unrealistic ???

Unhappily my first experience in seeing Krav Maga was a demo involving a guy crouching to take 2 baseball ball shots to the knees but he was okay in escaped unscathed :(..

Destruction and Power testing can be faked no question ut what about the real thing? Even if you believe it has no use the real stuff is still impressive (?)

[YODA]

Yes - the real stuff can be impressive. But it has no value in relation to martial arts.

[Labatt]

True, our testings are NEVER fake, they are real solid wood boards.

If you can do a high flying aerodynamic kick and break a REAL board, it still dosn't mean you can do that in real life, in a fight.

[YODA]

............ unless someone attacks you whilst holding up a wooden board of course (and keeps VERY still)

LOL!

Also - the definition of "Solid wood board" tends to vary somewhat. Try a nice piece of teak or maple rather than dried out pine :D

Reminds me of a guy that used to come for private lessons with me. He was a very experienced Karateka who insisted on telling me EVERY time we trained how he could break bricks with his shuto (knife-hand). So I found a nice old brick lying around my back yard for him. The only thing breaking was his hand LOL! Later when he'd gone I tried breaking it with a 7lb hammer - no joy. It was from the top layer of my old brick wall at the back of the yard - "Accrinton Blues" they call them - "Grade A" Engineering Brick - the type they make railway viaducts out of hehehe....

[TkdWarrior]

It was from the top layer of my old brick wall at the back of the yard - "Accrinton Blues" they call them - "Grade A" Engineering Brick - the type they make railway viaducts out of hehehe....
lol
-TkdWarrior-

[HKD]

even though i share teh same thoughts on breaking as yoda. i must say i have broken many cender blocks and these were ones that i picked myself from a brick co. i my home town and they were real bricks made with gravel to make them stronger they changed the building codes or what ever the year of my 1st black belt test lucky for me, i mean why would i want to break a brick that was subpar, i want a good solid one. and i broke 2 of them and later on other tests i broke 3 and 4 so it can be done. the cender blocks were 12 in long and i think 8 in. wide and 2 in. thick.
HKD

[Tosh]

Originally posted by YODA
Yes - the real stuff can be impressive. But it has no value in relation to martial arts.

That's a pretty broad/ sweeping statement there!

Using technique to generate power has to have some relation.

[pgm316]

HKD, I don't think you'd break an engineering brick with your hand, I'd like to see someone try though :p

I've only see people break things which have a tendancy to crack. I'd have to agree with Yoda, I think this has little value in a real fight. I'd put more faith in someone that can throw a good jab compared to break a brick. What would they do ? try and break someones face and break their hand in the process.......

[Tosh]

Originally posted by pgm316
try and break someones face and break their hand in the process.......

That's the whole point of breaking, ensuring you can hit a hard target and not break your hand.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by tosh_spice


That's the whole point of breaking, ensuring you can hit a hard target and not break your hand.

I’ve known a lot of hands to be broken in fights. I’m not sure how good a representation breaking wood and bricks really is. The human body can be an extremely hard thing to hit. You can’t break a good piece of teak or maple and definitely not a good engineering brick. I worked in the building industry long enough to learn that different materials have different qualities and therefore used for different purposes. I’ve seen people break things that an engineer would expect to crack under that type of impact.

[Tosh]

That's a fair point.

However I'm going to try and look for the softer target rather than a hard one. So if I can break a brick I know I've got the power to break a rib.

Just because I can break a brick doesn't mean I uprgrade all my targets of choice accordingly.

True breaking can never simulate what the human body would do under those circumstances. But untill Freeform develops his "re-breackable man I can't see any other way to test this without injuring someone.

[Tosh]

Before, anyone stops me there I'll rephrase to

"potentially break a rib"

[ROBERT]

Breaking objects improves the "entertainment" value of your art.(jk)
Seriously the ONLY use I can see for breaking is to practice using the proper weapon ie. knife edge of foot, palm heel, etc.. I have yet to see someone break an object that would not break on its own if dropped. I would say that it can build confidence, but it would be FALSE confidence as human bone is not nearly as brittle as #2 pine or 8"x16"x2" stepping blocks.

Just my opinion,
Robert

[Tosh]

Originally posted by ROBERT
I have yet to see someone break an object that would not break on its own if dropped

Try plastic re-breakable boards.

150 Psi, avarage required for break to new boards.

Plus I have cracked ribs and broken an arm while sparring in competition. Don't talk about bone as if its indestructible.

Hardness of bone and how much pressure it can take are two different topics.

[r4bid]

Robert: I am studying physics right now and I can tell you that human bone is far less brittle than pine wood. Human bone is surrounded by connective tissue, muscle and skin. A 25 inch long 1 inch thick bone can withstand something like 25,000 times the force as a concrete slab.

[ROBERT]

Originally posted by tosh_spice


Try plastic re-breakable boards.

150 Psi, avarage required for break to new boards.

Plus I have cracked ribs and broken an arm while sparring in competition. Don't talk about bone as if its indestructible.

Hardness of bone and how much pressure it can take are two different topics.

First of all I never said bone was indestructable(please do not put words in my mouth). I said it was not as brittle as the materials used in martial arts for breaking. When I stated that I have not seen anyone break anything that would not break on its own if dropped I was reffering to promotion tests and demonstrations, NOT fighting. I have never watched a breaking competition that used rebreakable boards.

You should try this experiment. Take your rebreakable board and set it up as you would for a descending break. Take a 45 pound plate and drop it from 5 feet onto the board simulating a knife hand strike. Take a video and show us the results of your test.

Ribs are only about 1 inch in diameter (as are the bones your lower arm)so breaking them is not that impressive. Bottom line is that even a rib is harder to break than a 12" by12" by1" peice of #2 pine or a stepping stone(even though a rib is much smaller). I was not saying that people can not break bones. I was saying that the breaking materials used by martial arts are usually much easier to break than a human bone. Therefor the argument that learning to break #2 pine will enable you to break a human bone with a strike is laughable.

Bones can take a tremendous amount of pressure Not because they are hard but because they can flex and absorb alot of force before they break. (try breaking a femur).

I would be interested to see the results of the experiment though.

r4bid's post further supports my claim that bone is less brittle and therefor harder to break.

I think there is a use for breaking and I stated it in my previous post.

Robert

[Tosh]

Originally posted by ROBERT



You should try this experiment. Take your rebreakable board and set it up as you would for a descending break. Take a 45 pound plate and drop it from 5 feet onto the board simulating a knife hand strike. Take a video and show us the results of your test.



I'll tell you the result of the experiment... the board will break. What did it prove??? That a 45 pound plate will break one re-breakable board when dropped from 5 foot. Therefore more than 150Psi was produced by the plate. Agreed? So does this mean if I break it with a knifehand I generate at least 150Psi?? Logically yes. Okay how about two boards?? Three?? A brick. Two bricks??

Now exchange the boardfor a part of the human body. Exchange the plate on the floor to be broken on a horizontal line. Like we do for gradings. This is why we practice breaking, like I've said in other posts, we do it to measure power and accuaracy.

It's there as a test of power. That's why I think it has value. Also I said we use rebreakable boards because they are harder than pine. It's also why I said earlier only beginners or children break pine (unless it's involved in a air break demo).

For the record I said that bones can break not they are easy to break them. Also you mentioned trying to break a femur. Yes it would be difficult. But why would I attack the thigh with the intention of breaking?? Surely I'll go for the easy bones ones. Radius, Ulna, wrist/ankle joints or lower and floating ribs.

Also another point is people always look at the view of the bone being static. Why? Surely in a fight these bones could be just as easily coming towards you as away from you. Surely this to has an impact on the chance of breaking.

I'd just like to say. I'm much enjoying hearing about peoples opinions in this conversation. Good to see for a change people have more to say than "Boards don't hit back!"

Cheers keep replying! :D

[johndoch]

ummm

boards dont hit back;)

[Tosh]

::rolleyes:

[ROBERT]

Originally posted by tosh_spice

Also another point is people always look at the view of the bone being static. Why? Surely in a fight these bones could be just as easily coming towards you as away from you. Surely this to has an impact on the chance of breaking.


I agree fully. So to train to break moving objects (ie. bone), I suggest having someone throw bricks at you. :D

I do not think that breaking is without merit. Although for someone to say because they can break a brick they can also break a bone is illogical(see quote above). You did not say that, but it is a common argument.

I do use breaking in my class, but only to aid in teaching proper striking techniques(not applications). I belive being able to break a brick or a board does NOT directly make you a better fighter. Only fighting can do that.

I know alot of people who can break a brick that could not fight there way out of a wet paper sack.

Robert

[Tosh]

Originally posted by ROBERT


I do use breaking in my class, but only to aid in teaching proper striking techniques(not applications). I belive being able to break a brick or a board does NOT directly make you a better fighter. Only fighting can do that.

Robert

Gah! Robert! Did you read my earlier posts?? Thats what I said.

But I'm glad there is someone here how agrees with me that breaking does have a use. Although it is still widley regarded as a redundant training method due to INstructors who don't know what they are teaching.

Yay an ally! :D

Breaking a brick is a test of your technique. Not how good a fighter you are. This is part of the stigma unfairly attached to breaking just as there is unfair stigma on BB's. I just wish more people were prepared to listen about breaking rather than automatically write it off.

I just get annoyed that people qoute Bruce Lee so readily without taking any time to experience breaking or learn anything about those who instruct it. Just My opinion

[ROBERT]

You have to practice your striking techniques in some way. And who doesn't love to break things.

Robert

[Cain]

Originally posted by johndoch
ummm

boards dont hit back;)

Umm.......I believe breaking boards hv other reasons as Tosh said

|Cain|

[johndoch]

I was trying to be funny (sorry ive got poor sense of humour)

I think breaking has a purpose.

If it doesnt why do people hit pads, shields, wooden dummies etc Are they not inanimate objects?

[Cain]

Ok Doc

BTW I was going thru the MAP archives n found a good post by ladyhawk, thought it might fit here well

originally posted by ladyhawk

The Physics of . . .Karate: Breaking Boards

I recently found this old article in my files.

The Physics of . . .Karate: Breaking Boards
Scientists say it's not a trick--it just takes blinding speed and a couple thousand newtons By Curtis Rist Advanced degrees in physics come in different varieties. At the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, students earn them by writing a dissertation. At the Karate Institute in midtown Manhattan, they earn them by breaking one-inch-thick pine boards. Lots of them. Ben Paris, a fourth-degree black belt in tae kwon do, is happy to demonstrate his grasp of the scientific principles. First, he adjusts his belt. Then he lets out a short, sharp yell, snaps his left leg forward, and smashes his foot through three boards, showering the mat
with splinters. "Five boards is about the most I can break," Paris says. "But I'm not really limited by strength; I'm more or less limited by the size of the hands holding the boards." Few things
offer more visceral proof of the power of physics than a karate
chop. Punch a brick with your bare hand, untutored in the martial arts, and you may break a finger. Punch it with the proper force, momentum, and positioning, and you'll break the brick instead.
"Amazingly, there are no tricks involved at all," says Michael Feld, a physicist at MIT. "What you have here is one of the most efficient human movements ever conceived. We've found nothing in our studies to improve upon the art." In the late 1970s, when Feld was earning a brown belt in karate, his instructor, Ronald McNair, also happened to be his physics student. (McNair later died tragically while working as a scientist-astronaut aboard Space Shuttle Challenger.) The secret to karate, both men agreed, lies in the speed and exceptional focus of the strike. But just how fast does a karate punch move? To find out, they joined with undergraduate Stephen Wilk and set up a strobe light that flashed either 60 or 120 times per second. Then they photographed McNair and others throwing various kicks and punches. Once the film was developed, they could calculate the speed of a punch by counting how many times the strobe flashed until the fist hit its target. Feld and McNair found that beginning students can throw a karate chop at about 20 feet per second--just enough to break a one-inch board. But a black belt like McNair
could chop at 46 feet per second. At that speed, a 11Ú2-pound hand can deliver a wallop of up to 2,800 newtons (one newton is roughly equal to the force exerted by the weight of an apple).
Splitting a typical concrete slab 11Ú2 inches thick takes on average only 1,900 newtons. Of course, the best boxers can punch as quickly and powerfully as any black belt. Why can't they break concrete blocks too? The answer lies in the nature of their punches. When a boxer throws his fist, he usually ends the movement with follow-through. This gives the punch maximum momentum (golf and tennis players follow through for the same reason), and it can help knock an opponent down. But the impact itself is diffuse: It's meant to jar an opponent's brain, not crack his skull. A karate chop, on the other hand, has no follow- through at all: It lashes out like a cobra and then withdraws instantly. When a black belt hits a slab of concrete, for instance, his fist touches the block for fewer than five milliseconds, and yet the
block breaks with a resounding crack. To understand how this works, Jearl Walker, a former tae kwon do student who now teaches physics at Cleveland State University, set up a study much like Feld's and McNair's. A well-thrown fist, he found, reaches its maximum velocity when the arm is about 80 percent
extended. "That's exactly what my tae kwon do master had taught me," Walker says. "You learn to focus your punch in your imagination so that it terminates inside your opponent's body, rather than on the surface. To deliver the maximum power, you want to make contact before the slowdown begins." The purpose of all that focused power is brutally obvious: to break bones and rupture tissue. But success also depends on more subtle forces. Solid as they seem, all materials are at least slightly elastic. Whack them in the right spot and they will start to oscillate. A
punch with a follow-through would dampen such oscillations, but a karate chop, by pulling away at the last moment, lets them move freely. "If you tweak a rubber band it goes up and down, and the same is true if you tweak a board or a brick with a much greater force," Feld says. "When they reach their elastic limits, they start to yield. In other words, they break." Fortunately for most of us, reaching that limit in bones is no easy matter. Feld says bone can withstand 40 times more force than concrete, and a cylinder of bone less than an inch in diameter and 21Ú3 inches long can withstand a force of more than 25,000 newtons. Hands
and feet can withstand even more than that, because their skin, muscles, ligaments, tendons, and cartilage absorb a great deal of impact. As a result, a well-kicked foot can absorb about 2,000 times as much force as concrete before breaking. Feld himself has never broken a finger in karate, even though he once broke eight one-inch-thick boards at a time. Still, good bones and a Ph.D. in physics alone couldn't earn him a black belt. "Tiger Woods didn't just wake up one morning and start hitting a ball 320 yards, and we don't just walk in and shatter a cinderblock," says Sihak Henry
Cho, grand master at the Karate Institute. "Everybody has to work at it." Students not only have to increase their speed and improve their aim, they have to toughen up their hands and feet by striking them against a post wrapped in foam and canvas.
"In the beginning, your skin is so soft you may end up cutting it. And then comes the blood," Cho says. "This is not recommended." Over time, the shuto, or knife-edge of the hand, develops a callus that acts exactly like a car bumper, absorbing and diffusing the force of the collision. "You practice every day hitting harder and harder and harder, and then you can hit as hard as you can without really getting hurt," Cho says. Martial arts experts take care to break only those things that can actually
be broken. When whacking a pine board, for instance, they align it with the grain running parallel to the strike, so that it cleaves easily. If they're looking for something more challenging, they'll choose patio blocks made of concrete rather than bricks, which are much less brittle. As students advance, they spend more of their time focusing on form and finesse than on trying to break ever-thicker materials. "Rather than seeing students break a dozen boards, I'd like to see them jump over my shoulder and break one board while flying through the air," Cho says. As a young man in Korea, he learned to prop a brick on top of a post and shear it in two with the side of his hand--leaving one half of the brick still perched on the post. In 1967, at a martial arts championship in Madison Square Garden (where Cho says he introduced his friend Bruce Lee to that year's champion, Chuck
Norris), Cho performed an even neater trick. Leaping into the air with a roundhouse kick, he split a single inch-thick board that his partner was dangling by a string. "Being good at karate is a lot like being good at telling a joke," Cho says. "It's not what you break; it's how you break it."
DISCOVER Vol. 21 No. 5 (May 2000)

[Tosh]

Cheers Cain that about wraps it up i guess! :D

[pgm316]

Can u sumurise that cain and put that summary into a conclusion and sumurise that ;)

[Cain]

Gee!!! The article simply suggests that breaking boards do hv a use, however, I hv not written the article, simply found it in the MAP archives :)

|Cain|

[Cain]

The most impressive break I hv seen? Well.........at one demonstration at which my instructors had gone to [I had'nt] a BB in there broke an ice slab which was about 20 inches thick with his head........now that's wat u call using ur brain :D

|Cain|

[Tosh]

I kinda like this one.

Ouch. I mean what makes you wake up and think.


"Hey, how about i stand the bricks up the other way."???


Crazzzzy!

[Artikon]

I think I'd rather break those bricks the way it is in the picture rather than the long way. Looks like they would be more reinforced the other way, it's just that the striking surface would be a little bit more forgiving than end on end.

[r4bid]

anyone know aht 11U2 means in that article? is that 11.2 or something else? I am doing a project on breaking for school and need to know

[Phoenix]

Oyama was the standard bearer in terms of breaking power. His was the standard of excellence. If he hit you, you would be going down. If you blocked him, your arm broke. That is true power!!

[Phoenix]

BTW, breaking board is one thing. A fat guy who puts his weight behind it or someone with a heavy arm, can chop a lot of boards. Breaking a suspended board (not supported), now that takes real striking power!

[KickChick]

Yeah alright... I did find a thread on "board breaking" here in the TKD forum! I love to break !!!

Just was wondering how many of you do break, how often and whether or not it is part of ranking requirements within your individual schools.

We have always included breaking in our curriculum from white belt on up....and our school does have "breaking classes".

The Black Belt breaking classes have a habit of getting very imaginative as far as breaks go....but being proficient at board breaking is a lot like being good at telling a joke its not what you break; it's how you break it.!!!

Breaking a suspended board (not supported), now that takes real striking power!

Power AND Speed!!! We call them "speed" breaks at our school and I have personally done a few of them with a 1 inch board with elbow strike, hook punch and roundhouse .

Right now I am working on a 5 board break. I have only done 4 boards so far.....
Just went to the lumber yard this weekend and ready to tackle the next class! I'll let you know how I do!!!

[Mark Davies]

I LOVE POWER TEST!
Ok its true that 'boards don't hit back', but in the course of my extremely dodgy professional past I've had to use my training VERY extensively. One thing I know is that if you hit someone full pelt in a boney area theres a good chance you're gonna break your own attacking tool. Power test to be done properly requires that you have a properly conditioned attacking tool. If your only breaking one or two boards fully supported it only demonstrates that you have accuracy, focus & confidence in your technique. But breaking more than that really requires conditioning, & so does effective use of human weapons in self defence. All the Masters I know & have trained with have very well conditioned hands & feet, I always think of Grandmaster Rhee Ki Ha's mountain range that he had installed to replace his knuckles! My Instructor got a Gold medal at the ITF world championships, for hand destruction, doing 6" with reverse knife hand. He has a very well conditioned attacking tool there & he did'nt even have to do any work on it! He was working offshore on an oil rig & a steel door got blown off & fell on him severing his thumb. After having it grafted back on it was all hard & calloused. There are easier ways I think............
Speed breaks are ace, I love 360 jumping reverse turning kick.

[Tosh]

Hey Mark welcme to the forum!


Arbroath Scotland eh? Which association are you with?

[Mark Davies]

Hi Tosh, thanks for the welcome. I'm with UKTF. I started with UKTA back in 1984, but moved with my instructors when UKTF was formed (they were amongst the founding members). You?

[craigwarren]

Hey mark, im kinda in the opposite situation from you, im in the UKTA now but up until i went to uni i was in the UKTF (6 months or so). Have you noticed any major differences, i can't say i really have aside from the fact that when i was at the UKTF gradings where more of a club thing, the club always had its own gradings when an international instructor would come along (perhaps master sutherland) and the only people who where graded where club members.

Now im at the UKTA i've been to 1 grading and there are more planned, but its quite interesting that these gradings are MUCH bigger things, large groups from many different clubs grade at the same time, this may be because our gradings are with a grand master or it may be a UKTA thing, have you noticed any differences?

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Mark Davies
Hi Tosh, thanks for the welcome. I'm with UKTF. I started with UKTA back in 1984, but moved with my instructors when UKTF was formed (they were amongst the founding members). You?

Irginally BITF back in the day when M. Hutchinson was in charge. Then got caught in many political arguments and associations. Now keep my nose out of it an enjoy BB seminars with GM Rhee.

Did I hear correctly that Master H has moved out to Canada?

[Mark Davies]

Hi Tosh

Master H moved to canada? Not that I've heard. I know that John McKissock (4th Degree from edinburger) is moving to spain to instruct, & Darren Anderson (4th degree from englandshire) is taking over some organisation in south africa, but I've nae heard anything about Master H.
I know what your saying about politics, I've learned to keep my nose well out of that slamming door. I'm not bothered what association anyone is in, we're all in the Martial Arts together & can all learn from each other.

[Tosh]

Hmmm funny things Jungle drums you never know if they are in your language!!

Agreed on the politics thing, I just want to train!! Although been mostly instructing for the past year.

Can't wait to get back to being a student again. Lot's to learn, need to develop more!

[Mark Davies]

Hey Craigwarren. When I was in UKTA I was just a coloured belt but I noticed that the gradings were only done by master Rhee (now grandmaster obviously) & Mr MacCallum (now master). I know that one of the reasons that UKTF formed was because of the difficulty we had back then in getting gradings in scotland, as grandmaster Rhee wouldn't let anyone else do them & was very reluctant to grade anyone past 3rd degree. It was all to do with money as the grading examiner gets a cut of the grading fee, & GM Rhee was getting a fair income from it. I know that I waited almost a year to grade to yellow tags as we couldn't get anyone to come north of Glasgow to grade us, & eventually Tom MacCallum did a grading in Aberdeen which we went to.
I like the gradings to be smaller affairs as I think it gives people a harder grading (especially when it's my International, David McNairn 5th degree, coz he's a dinasaur heh heh).
As long as your Instructor is good, teaches a good class, & inspires & challenges you, I don't think it matters what association you're in. Like I always say, we're all in this together, & every association has it's good points & faults.

[Mark Davies]

Yeah, I always wondered what "boom boom budda budda boom" meant.

It's great when you get a chance to be a student again. I teach full time & it's great to get on seminars & just be Joe Bloggs again.

When I passed my first degree I took about five years out just to study other martial arts & stuff, was a great time. I still love studying other systems, the more different from TKD the better.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Mark Davies

As long as your Instructor is good, teaches a good class, & inspires & challenges you, I don't think it matters what association you're in. Like I always say, we're all in this together, & every association has it's good points & faults.


Craig be VERY carefull with your next answer!!! I'm watching!!

:D

[Mark Davies]

Originally posted by tosh_spice



Craig be VERY carefull with your next answer!!! I'm watching!!

:D

Heh Heh Heh, remember craig- your instructor seems to be watching, & sparring is always just around the corner.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Mark Davies
I still love studying other systems, the more different from TKD the better.

I'd love to be able to say I'm doing Aikido aswell, but workload at Uni is really too much just now.

After my exams i swear I'll buck up my ideas!!

I really like the simple stuff to Aikido, I can relate to you saynig completley different though. Really wouldn't mind immerssing myslef in MA once my exams are over.

[Mark Davies]

Yeah, fair one, your studies HAVE to come first. I was lucky, many moons ago I was an art student & we had an easy life, hehehe.

I enjoyed training in Aikido. Their principle if Irimi, & their Tai Sabaki are very usefull. Of all the other styles I've trained in though, I have to say it's been the Filipino martial arts & some of the other Korean systems I've enjoyed the most. I'm currently messing about in capoeira when I get the chance, it's a hoot.

[Tosh]

I've been quite interested in Hapkido as it seems like not too harsh a transition.

Fancy a weapons based art though :D

[craigwarren]

My current instructer is great ( im not just saying that cause he's tosh) we get a lot of work done, im motivated to actually do the work i need to in tae kwon do and the club has a really fun atmosphere.

As for other martial arts im activly looking for a new art that contains weapons and perhaps ground fighting. not much luck atm though.

[Mark Davies]

I think thats a great idea & thats why I got involved in Pekriti Tirsia (kali) & Sul Sa Do. They both involve weapons work. To really understand how to defend against a weapon you really need to know how the weapon can be employed.
You should try Ricky Young in Edinburgh, he's an excellent instructor.
Sorry for dissapearing suddenly earlier Tosh, had to go beast my Dundee students:D

[YODA]

You should try Ricky Young in Edinburgh, he's an excellent instructor.

Never a truer word said!

[Mark Davies]

Ricky is a real 'performer' with huge ability, & a nice bloke into the bargain. Mike & Steve Krause in Glasgow are good blokes to train with, though the last time I saw them was about 15 years ago! Filipino Martial Arts are the perfect 2nd martial art for someone who does TKD as they really improve your movement & tactical awareness for self protection, & there isn't a stick or knife system out there which comes close. You can't argue with guys like the canetes, who have field tested their system.

[Tosh]

Cool, when I get 5 mins to myslef I'll be sure to look them up.

Stay tooned,

Dundee students eh? My heart goes out to you! Heh :D

[Trent Tiemeyer]

I was at a breaking demo about 7 years ago in Manhattan, KS.

The finale was WTF 5th Dan Master Chris Garland lying on glass with concrete slabs on his stomach, as an assistant broke the stack with a splitting wedge. The assistant arced it instead of coming straight down, sweeping through the bricks and catching Master Garland in the groin.

You'd have thought he was James Brown the way they escorted him away.

The demo was hokey, but that school makes some good fighters.

[YODA]

LOL! he old slabs on the body trick. Basic physics - disipation of forces etc.

I witnessed a demo once where this guy lay down with 6 concrete slabs on his chest and his assistant was about to smash them with a sledge hammer. He asked for any questions so I asked if he could make it easier for himself and take away all that heavy concrete - just let me hit him with the sledge hammer in the chest- now THAT would have been impressive. He wasn't too keep :D

[Freeform]

Dave! What have I told you before! Play fair with the other kids! ;)

I'll bet he wasn't happy! I was at a Karate board breaking demo once, and the board broke in the holders hands! How embarrasing! :D

[Mark Davies]

Hehehehehehe:D

Was doing a TKD demo at the Edzell village fete about 10 years ago. Had two guys at either side of me holding big marley tiles for me to jumping back kick. Did the kicks, smashed the tiles. looked around & there's Graeme, one of the other blackbelts, standing there in a state of shock with a big bit of tile sticking out of the top of his head. He'd decided to move closer to the break to get a photo, & ended up getting more than he'd wanted.

[Cale]

...Dundee students eh? My heart goes out to you! Heh :D

I am very offended. Lol. :)

[jonmonk]

I saw an ad in an MA mag a while back that advertised wooden boards for breaking that were "Garanteed to break everytime." Is it me or does that kinda defeat the whole object of the exercise :rolleyes:

[Wynnston]

I saw an ad in an MA mag a while back that advertised wooden boards for breaking that were "Garanteed to break everytime." Is it me or does that kinda defeat the whole object of the exercise :rolleyes:

Buy some, leave them outside in the rain for a couple of days to remove the brittleness, take some film of you and some mates trying to break them and then send it to the company with a demand for a refund and a whole pile of free boards for firewood.

[jonmonk]

Buy some, leave them outside in the rain for a couple of days to remove the brittleness, take some film of you and some mates trying to break them and then send it to the company with a demand for a refund and a whole pile of free boards for firewood.
Woohoo excellent idea. I could use the cash :D

[wrydolphin]

I had to break a board with my head for my orange belt test. Being the first (and last) head break I had ever done, the "donk" noise it made when it bounced off my head was very interesting. :eek:

[gemtkd]

I had to break a board with my head for my orange belt test. Being the first (and last) head break I had ever done, the "donk" noise it made when it bounced off my head was very interesting. :eek:

Mmm, head break - nice!! Being Scottish I should have no problems with that :D . Can't say I've ever seen or heard of it in TKD though :)

[jonmonk]

Mmm, head break - nice!! Being Scottish I should have no problems with that :D . Can't say I've ever seen or heard of it in TKD though :)
I've done 8 tiles with my head. I did it twice, once for fun at the end of my second dan grading and once to entertain the kids in a class. My partner has now banned me from doing it again :D :bang: :D

[gemtkd]

I've done 8 tiles with my head. I did it twice, once for fun at the end of my second dan grading and once to entertain the kids in a class. My partner has now banned me from doing it again :D :bang: :D


Sounds sore :bang: :bang: :bang: :)

[carlos]

I tried a head break on a rebreakable board. Not very wise. Concussion is no fun.

I don't thik I hit the board fast enough, I knocked the holder back a few steps and rubbed some skin off my head.

[Taliar]

I tried a head break on a rebreakable board. Not very wise. Concussion is no fun.

I don't thik I hit the board fast enough, I knocked the holder back a few steps and rubbed some skin off my head. :bang:

ROFLMAO - What on earth made you think this was a good idea. :D

[jonmonk]

Sounds sore :bang: :bang: :bang: :)
Yeah but it gets less sore the more often you do it :D

Trouble is your speech starts to slur too :D j/k

[Kwajman]

I've broken: boards, bricks, pavers, bottles, my foot, and one heart....

[wrydolphin]

Breaking tiles with my head doesn't really sound like the definition of fun to me, but hey, what ever blows your socks around. :p :love:
I the head break the second time, but nothing can erase the surprise of etreme not-funness of that first attempt.
Other then that I seem to mainly be limited to my own bones. :confused: :rolleyes: :bang:

[MarioBro]

Came across this thread while surfing, and just wanted to comment.

I see many, including Yoda, say that breaking does nothing for you. And of course there are many that use the antiquated 'Boards don't hit back'.

Well, all of you who say these things have entirely missed the point. The main point of breaking is not physical since most people can easily break a board or two physically. The key is mental strength. The confidence needed to actually accelerate your limb through the board in order to break it rather than do what many do and decelerate as you approach the object...out of fear. When this happens...then yes, THE BOARD DOES HIT BACK!!!

Of course as the number of boards/bricks increases then more and more technique is required along with more force and speed need to be applied. But the one thing that remains constant is that you need the confidence to do it. I have seen fairly big guys fail to go through because of a lack of confidence, and once you do not go through and you feel that force redirected back to your limb and the pain sets in...it is even more dificult to muster what is needed to get through it.

At the same rate, when you see a 10 year old girl who is very self concious, snap kick through a 1 inch pine board...the look on their face and the amount of confidence that builds is priceless. Once you know you can get through, then you can work on technique, speed and power in order to increase the number of boards/bricks that you can break.

So to all nay sayers...you are seeing the activity of board breaking in the wrong light. It is like saying 'Why do push-ups since the floor does not push back?'.

[d.p.]

Yes, breaking is an entirely mental thing, and I feel people that don't like breaking and don't do it are lacking in the mental strength required. Physically anyone can break a board, but only the mentally strong can break a board. beyond technique it requires good confidence and trust in the instructor to do a good break.

hence in our clubcs breaking is a required part of grading, and is infact one of the most important parts. Anyone can train to become physially fit for a grading, anyone can keep stretching and increase their flexibility, anyone can revise the terminology and get it perfect and everyone can keep practicing their patterns t make them better (even if they can't make them perfect).
But breaking requires the student to have a enough mental strenght to go ahead and do what the examiner says, any hestitation will be noted and you will loose marks. We rarley practice breaking at all, hardly ever, but without fail we will have it in the grading. his is what can mark the differnce between a student that naturally is quite fit and flexilbe, and a student who has what it mentally takes to become a good practitioner. Examiners do not really care how flexible or physiclaly fit you are, they care about you giving 110%, being focused, being mentally strong to fight through the pain barrier, to be confident with your techniques. A student who is scared of braking and overly hestitant, even if they break the board will not do well. A studnet who goes for it, giving all theitr effort, even if the tchniue is slightly wrong, will do well in the examers eyes.


Boarding breaking is nothing physical at all.

[MarioBro]

Yes, breaking is an entirely mental thing, and I feel people that don't like breaking and don't do it are lacking in the mental strength required. Physically anyone can break a board, but only the mentally strong can break a board. beyond technique it requires good confidence and trust in the instructor to do a good break.

hence in our clubcs breaking is a required part of grading, and is infact one of the most important parts. Anyone can train to become physially fit for a grading, anyone can keep stretching and increase their flexibility, anyone can revise the terminology and get it perfect and everyone can keep practicing their patterns t make them better (even if they can't make them perfect).
But breaking requires the student to have a enough mental strenght to go ahead and do what the examiner says, any hestitation will be noted and you will loose marks. We rarley practice breaking at all, hardly ever, but without fail we will have it in the grading. his is what can mark the differnce between a student that naturally is quite fit and flexilbe, and a student who has what it mentally takes to become a good practitioner. Examiners do not really care how flexible or physiclaly fit you are, they care about you giving 110%, being focused, being mentally strong to fight through the pain barrier, to be confident with your techniques. A student who is scared of braking and overly hestitant, even if they break the board will not do well. A studnet who goes for it, giving all theitr effort, even if the tchniue is slightly wrong, will do well in the examers eyes.


Boarding breaking is nothing physical at all.

All very well said, although maybe a little too much to say that breaking is not physical at all. It does still require technique which is based on all the physical training, moreso when you get into power breaking...but still mostly mental strength for sure.

[TraditionalTKD]

Breaking is what separates a technique that merely looks good from a technique that actually has the power to inflict damage and do what it is supposed to.
I've seen lots of karate guys (karate guys being a generic term) who can do a high side kick and hold it extended to show form. I think one of the ITF forms does this. Other that requiring strong hip muscles and balance, it does nothing. It certainly won't deter anyone. It might impress some people.
Now take a middle side kick and blow through six 1 inch boards, non-baked, no spacers. That's impressive, and shows people what your side kick is capable of.
And sparring is no substitute for breaking, for the simple reason that you can't demonstrate that kind of power on a human being. You will always have to hold back instead of seeing just what your technique is capable of. We do not practice to hurt our fellow students or kill people. Breaking allows us to do what we cannot do against human beings.

[ShadowWarrior]

My best break is a fore fist punch through 2 20mm thick boards and a side kick thorugh 3 20mm boards. That;s not bad for a 14year old.
:love:

[Taliar]

Breaking is what separates a technique that merely looks good from a technique that actually has the power to inflict damage and do what it is supposed to.
I've seen lots of karate guys (karate guys being a generic term) who can do a high side kick and hold it extended to show form. I think one of the ITF forms does this. Other that requiring strong hip muscles and balance, it does nothing. It certainly won't deter anyone. It might impress some people.
Now take a middle side kick and blow through six 1 inch boards, non-baked, no spacers. That's impressive, and shows people what your side kick is capable of.
And sparring is no substitute for breaking, for the simple reason that you can't demonstrate that kind of power on a human being. You will always have to hold back instead of seeing just what your technique is capable of. We do not practice to hurt our fellow students or kill people. Breaking allows us to do what we cannot do against human beings.

Yeah but a heavy bag is cheaper :D

Though I do enjoy breaking, it's much more effective and cheaper to use a heavy bag or big pad for power training.

My favourite break is probably a reverse turning speed break.