Scenario: Push and Hit

[Thomas]

All right... here's the next scenario:

(1) You are standing around and a friend of yours walks up and puts his right index finger into your chest (extended but bent slightly arm) and pushes you backwards. He's a bit drunk and a bit mad at you for some reason. He begins wagging his other finger in your face. Your (his) buddies egg him on about how you'll use your "Kung-Fu (direct quote)" on him". He throws a playful punch at your face (slow, that is).

(2) A stranger at a bar who thinks you were looking at his date walks up you and puts his left hand on your chest (arm extended bu slightly bent at the elbow) and begins backing you towards a wall. He has a couple of buddies (2) watching.

(3) Same as #2 but he has managed to get you to the wall and is cocking back to throw a punch with his right.

How would you react to these situations?

P.S. Please reply even if you don't study Hapkido... the more the merrier! Thanks

[blessed_samurai]

1. Playfully slap his punch away? I'm thinking match his demeanor. Try and get the friends to lighten up the mood. The rest is up in the air.



2. This one has happened to me, so I'll relate what I did. I told him that I was actually looking at him and I thought he was awfully purty. This led to your number 3 (My g'friend thought it was funny, he didn't...some people just can't take a joke)

3. Sooo...I did....I stepped forward, one arm came around his neck and so did the other (imagine a hug), this let his grabbing arm be trapped for a second and the forward motion threw off his punch. I stepped behind and reaped (or swept which ever you like) his leg out. His buddies laughed, he was stunned from the fall and I walked away.



I tend to stay away from bars anymore, so I have reduced my confrontations by a huge extent.

[nj_howard]

1). hook around his R index finger with your same-side (L) hand, palm down, thumb toward your own torso. grab the entire finger. roll your closed hand back and down, using your thumb as a base against the back of his hand, to bend his finger too far backward. if you drop your weight thru your hips (just drop into a horse stance), most people will drop right to the ground, butt first. the fingers are very sensitive to hyperextension, even on drunks and/or big guys.

2). not to sound anal, but which way is his hand situated on your chest? (palm up, down or to the side) at any rate, if he is pushing, you pull, unbalancing him. there's the hapki.

3). focus on the punch. the grab is not doing you any immediate harm. parry the punch softly outward with your same side (L) hand and follow up with a strike of some kind (sudo to R side of his neck, hammerfist to R side of his face...). cover his grabbing hand with your same-side (R) hand, while covering on the inside of his grabbing wrist with your L hand, and roll his wrist into outside lead as you step back and around R, driving him down with your L hand. once he's on the ground on his back, roll his L hand under his shoulder and push his elbow down and back toward his head, while kneeling on his ribs with your L knee. be sure to put all of your weight on your L knee, as you may crack a couple of ribs.

[hedgehogey]

All right... here's the next scenario:

(1) You are standing around and a friend of yours walks up and puts his right index finger into your chest (extended but bent slightly arm) and pushes you backwards. He's a bit drunk and a bit mad at you for some reason. He begins wagging his other finger in your face. Your (his) buddies egg him on about how you'll use your "Kung-Fu (direct quote)" on him". He throws a playful punch at your face (slow, that is).

Shoot a double. Or take his back and RNC. My friends have learned the import of the words "Hey, help me practice."
Or just hand him a pair of MMA gloves and say "go ahead."


(2) A stranger at a bar who thinks you were looking at his date walks up you and puts his left hand on your chest (arm extended bu slightly bent at the elbow) and begins backing you towards a wall. He has a couple of buddies (2) watching.

Assuming there's no way to run, swim in, take neck clinch. From here I can start the knees or guillotine to take a hostage.


(3) Same as #2 but he has managed to get you to the wall and is cocking back to throw a punch with his right.

Drop and shoot a single. This is always my reaction to a big punch. Lift the knee, trip, and from there I can stay standing and stomp, or armbar to take a hostage.

[Hapkido]

All right... here's the next scenario:

(1) You are standing around and a friend of yours walks up and puts his right index finger into your chest (extended but bent slightly arm) and pushes you backwards. He's a bit drunk and a bit mad at you for some reason. He begins wagging his other finger in your face. Your (his) buddies egg him on about how you'll use your "Kung-Fu (direct quote)" on him". He throws a playful punch at your face (slow, that is).

haha first off i love the kung fu line, i get that all the time except its "ninja moves." second, hes on liquid courage with friends around him, doing anything to actually take him down is going to lead to you whooping your friends ass. i think the best thing you could do is take the punch if its weak enough or dodge it in a non-threatening manner. if u embarass him in front of his friends hes gonna get serious and the last thing i wanna do is drop a friend.
(2) A stranger at a bar who thinks you were looking at his date walks up you and puts his left hand on your chest (arm extended bu slightly bent at the elbow) and begins backing you towards a wall. He has a couple of buddies (2) watching.
i would push his left arm out of the way to my left with my left hand while tucking my right arm under his shoulder, shoulder lock him and throw him either headfirst into the wall to knock him out or b into his friends so they might persuade him to rethink his idea of attacking me.
(3) Same as #2 but he has managed to get you to the wall and is cocking back to throw a punch with his right.
i would immediately wrist lock the hand he has on me and force him to the ground putting him into an armbar. if his friends begin advancing ill threaten to shatter his elbow and then yell for the bouncers, if they keep coming ill break his elbow and get ready for a fight.

[Maximicus]

1) Playfully jump around shouting "wuuuuaaahhhhtttaahhh!!!" If he persists it's chokeout time.

2) Tell him I was looking for the restroom. Or tell him I was looking, and wishing I could be as lucky a man as he.

3) Kick to groin. Or clinch, takedown, run.

[Thomas]

2). not to sound anal, but which way is his hand situated on your chest? (palm up, down or to the side) at any rate, if he is pushing, you pull, unbalancing him. there's the hapki.


Palm is flat to chest with fingers open and facing skyward

[KenpoDavid]

I like Max's answer to #1... mock-fu is good for drunk friends. if he persists, I think I can block and evade enough to give him time to think twice. If he gets more serious, it's time for a wrist or elbow lock...

#2, as soon as this guy places his hand on my chest, I'm taking control of it and him. it's his right hand, so I grab it with my left, thumb in the back of his hand, and peel it off to the outside while stepping my left foot back and around and sinking a bit to protect my head. He's pretty likely to go down, or at least be pulled off balance where I can trip him. Hopefully into a table, making enough commotion to smother any more activity untilt he bouncers arrive.

#3 my response to #2 could prevent it from going this far... but if it doesn't... trap the grabbing hand with my left, straight shot to solar plexus with the right, flowing into upwards palm heel to chin, then a downward elbow to his trapped forearm, then a back elbow to his face or temple. Did he manage to throw that cocked punch in there somewhere? maybe but the palm heel took some steam off it. DO I still need to control the trapped arm? or is he done? flow on...

[nj_howard]

#2, ...I grab it with my left, thumb in the back of his hand, and peel it off to the outside while stepping my left foot back and around and sinking a bit to protect my head. He's pretty likely to go down, or at least be pulled off balance where I can trip him. Hopefully into a table, making enough commotion to smother any more activity untilt he bouncers arrive.
good point. we find in training that he is in fact pretty likely to go down, especially if you manage to twist his wrist into an outside lead lock. the torquing of your hips and shoulders as you step back, and the dropping of your body weight, have a big unbalancing effect in that technique.

[Thomas]

KenpoDavid: I like your line of thinking... that is, adjusting to the "what if's", like if he if managed to get the shot off how to take a bit of the power off it. I think some people place too much faith in the avoiding or blocking and then are not prepared when they get hit or when the defence doesn't go according to plan.

I like all of the suggestions so far... good stuff.

[hedgehogey]

You know, I was just thinking.

Scenario number 1: Sport fighting solves this VERY admirably. All you gotta say is "Sure, let's kick/box/grapple. Ready?" This usually ends the conversation.

[pug32]

All right... here's the next scenario:

(1) You are standing around and a friend of yours walks up and puts his right index finger into your chest (extended but bent slightly arm) and pushes you backwards. He's a bit drunk and a bit mad at you for some reason. He begins wagging his other finger in your face. Your (his) buddies egg him on about how you'll use your "Kung-Fu (direct quote)" on him". He throws a playful punch at your face (slow, that is).

(2) A stranger at a bar who thinks you were looking at his date walks up you and puts his left hand on your chest (arm extended bu slightly bent at the elbow) and begins backing you towards a wall. He has a couple of buddies (2) watching.

(3) Same as #2 but he has managed to get you to the wall and is cocking back to throw a punch with his right.

How would you react to these situations?

P.S. Please reply even if you don't study Hapkido... the more the merrier! Thanks

Groin kick, Straight blast (all three) :D

1) some very nice dumog and panantukan techniques work from there and if they are drunk you can throw them around so they look fairly silly but you don't do them any damage

2) take the arm off you as soon as it goes on. this is a difficult one as if the fight goes off it is really a three on one so probably a no win. Its up to you to make the call to either try and difuse it or hit first. If it is going to happen probably gk, sb as you will need to take care of each individual as quick as possible. If you want to deal with it without damaging them again probably some panantukan stuff

3) you have failed very badly if you get yourself to this point! but again probably a shot to the groin, get yourself of the wall then deal with whatever comes at you

Also if you have never trained for this sort of stuff I would technique a,b then c often translates to i would freeze and get dropped on my a$$

[Sonshu]

All right... here's the next scenario:

(1) You are standing around and a friend of yours walks up and puts his right index finger into your chest (extended but bent slightly arm) and pushes you backwards. He's a bit drunk and a bit mad at you for some reason. He begins wagging his other finger in your face. Your (his) buddies egg him on about how you'll use your "Kung-Fu (direct quote)" on him". He throws a playful punch at your face (slow, that is).

(2) A stranger at a bar who thinks you were looking at his date walks up you and puts his left hand on your chest (arm extended bu slightly bent at the elbow) and begins backing you towards a wall. He has a couple of buddies (2) watching.

(3) Same as #2 but he has managed to get you to the wall and is cocking back to throw a punch with his right.

How would you react to these situations?

P.S. Please reply even if you don't study Hapkido... the more the merrier! Thanks

1) Just say do you want a beer and whats up. I think any of my mates would have enough sence not to go down the he will kung fu your ass route. There pretty good about it. Just try to placate the situation.

2) Just say I was not looking at your lady and you might wanna stop starting trouble or the bouncers will kick us both out. Keep half an eye on his mates to see if there thinking of coming over. If he is not dropping the subject or getting more agressive I will just say there are a load of my mates here (never in a pub or club on my own) and I do not want either of us to get into a scap over something I did not do or something to defuse situation. If this does not work then arm lock as this is not an agressive situation at this point if I can't get it then I can take him out.

3) Open up if he is cocking back fully then pull clinch to control his shot. Then throw him to the floor and get the hell out of there. If should be on camera that he went for you so SD is applicable and get out before his mates start, I have not hit the guy and will not do unless its getting out of hand as he is not proving a major threat at the moment and seems pretty easy to control.

[KenpoDavid]

KenpoDavid: I like your line of thinking... that is, adjusting to the "what if's", like if he if managed to get the shot off how to take a bit of the power off it. I think some people place too much faith in the avoiding or blocking and then are not prepared when they get hit or when the defence doesn't go according to plan.

Kenpo is all about "what if"... or more appropriately "even if".

And yeah hedgehogey, I like your suggestion for dealing with friends. We do that all the time anyway :woo:

[oni_sensei]

1. Just play along with the situation, make a bit of humour out of it. If that fails, then we can tell the guy's obviously drunk, which usually makes it all the more easier to anticipate the punch. Anyways, no real point wasting energy on blocking, just slip back the two or three inches out of the way, then maybe step around him after his punch follows through and a give a quick bump to the hip. Just be relaxed about it, no real need to turn the event into a slugfest.

2. With his left hand on your chest, and you stepping backward, wait until your left leg is forward while keeping eye contact. On the next step backward, don't put your left foot down, swing it anti-clockwise and raise your hands to act in a passive manner (y'know, palms out and all that, the usual "I don't wanna fight you" posture". Just use his forward momentum and circle around him while attempting to prevent the confrontation from advancing. If that fails, then we move to Scenario 3.

3: Make sure his hand is fully cocked, then step slightly off to your right. Palm down his left arm and slam a reverse-knifehand/ridge-hand under his nose, to the throat or to the solarplexus, depending on the severity of the situation, we don't want to go around crushing throats if he's only trying to punch you in the face.

[nj_howard]

1. ... Just be relaxed about it, no real need to turn the event into a slugfest.

3: ...we don't want to go around crushing throats if he's only trying to punch you in the face.
oni_sensei, nice post. i've always thought that one of the nice things about hapkido is that it has such a diversity of techniques that you can tailor your response to your perceived severity of the attack. start out with relatively mild control techniques, and if the attack escalates, so do your counters.

this concept is especially important in the litigation-happy US, where it's no longer unusual for some drunken moron to start a fight with you, suffer an injury when you defend yourself, then sue you (and you can be sure mr. lawyer will throw in an outrageous demand for $$$ for "pain and suffering").

[Thomas]

this concept is especially important in the litigation-happy US, where it's no longer unusual for some drunken moron to start a fight with you, suffer an injury when you defend yourself, then sue you (and you can be sure mr. lawyer will throw in an outrageous demand for $$$ for "pain and suffering").

I am with you on this idea... we have to be very careful in the level of force that we use for fear of criminal charges against us.

[MichaelV]

1) I wouldn't do anything other than just stand there. Generally, my drunk friends get bored and find something else to do. That got me punched in the face once when one of my friends was a little too drunk. Hurt, but my other friends made fun of him for months afterward that he hit me as hard as he could in the face, and I didn't even bother to move. In fact, we still make fun of him for that.

2) Move, get his hand off my chest, and try to talk my way out of it.

3) Left jab to the face, clinch, knees, then run from his friends.

Something like that anyway.

[bigd]

All right... here's the next scenario:

(1) You are standing around and a friend of yours walks up and puts his right index finger into your chest (extended but bent slightly arm) and pushes you backwards. He's a bit drunk and a bit mad at you for some reason. He begins wagging his other finger in your face. Your (his) buddies egg him on about how you'll use your "Kung-Fu (direct quote)" on him". He throws a playful punch at your face (slow, that is).

(2) A stranger at a bar who thinks you were looking at his date walks up you and puts his left hand on your chest (arm extended bu slightly bent at the elbow) and begins backing you towards a wall. He has a couple of buddies (2) watching.

(3) Same as #2 but he has managed to get you to the wall and is cocking back to throw a punch with his right.

How would you react to these situations?

P.S. Please reply even if you don't study Hapkido... the more the merrier! Thanks(1)hes my friend and hes just playing so no big deal ill just play back.
(2)he starts pushing me towards the wall his face will be in it.ill side step to the right and take his arm and his neck and lunge him face first into the wall.
(3)as hes cocking back,ill side step his punch,and slam him in the wall,and naked necklock him,ill stop if im nice,but to be mean,do jimi him at the same time.basically,were on the ground,i have him in my gaurd squeezing his ribs with a naked neck lock on him,his back is toward me in the gaurd.

[Capt Ann]

NOT a hapkido/joint-lock type here, but if someone has their palm flat against my chest, fingers pointed up, if I just grab their hand to keep it flat to my chest and lunge in/move forward, won't that be against the weakest part of their wrist and force them back/down, too?

Anyway, about the litigation issue, and the idea that I might not want to ridgehand someone who's "only" going to punch me in the face..... A face-punch can do a LOT more damage than most people realize (and certainly more damage than shown in a typical 5-minute made-for-TV fight). Teeth don't generally grow back after they've been shattered, cracked eye-sockets can mess up your vision for life, head-hits can be lethal. Besides, if someone's cocking back to throw a full-force punch at you, you cannot afford to assume they're planning on stopping after they land one. If you feel threatened enough to warrant throwing any kind of attack, the last thing you should be worrying about is, "What would my lawyer say?"

[nj_howard]

capt ann, your points are certainly valid. you have highlighted the dilemma we face in the u.s. with respect to legal liability for defending ourselves.

from what i can understand, it broadly comes down to the threat you perceive. if you honestly believe that your life is in danger, you can use whatever force you choose to to defend yourself. the complication is that if you get taken to court, which some of these scumbags will do to you, you have to convince the court.

i hope you realize that i think this sucks just as much as you probably do. but that's the way it is here in the states.

regards...

[oni_sensei]

It's pretty much the same here in Australia. Common law dictates that force can only be applied proportionately less than or equal to the threat at hand. Someone insults your mother, you choke him out, you've got assault on your hands.

[Hapkido]

learned 2 ways to defuse a situation like this:
1)push his hand away and off of you and grab his belt with the same hand you pushed his arm away with, then pull him towards you as you strike him in the neck with your fingers really hard. that gags the hell out of your target and knocks him off balance.
2) grab the wrist of the hand on you, put one hand on the shoulder of that same arm, bring the leg opposite to the arm you have holding the guys wrist up and behind him doing a quick sweep kick while pulling back on his arm to throw him completely off balance, then armbar him and use him as a hostage. or instead of the arm bar you could stand on his throat so your not in a vulnerable position.