Relation to muay thai?

[Cain]

Is kickboxing similar to muay thai? if no then how does it differ? Many people [including me] believe that the two are the same arts with different names.....

|Cain|

[YODA]

Ok I'll have a go....

Kickboxing
Boxing hands & Karate kicks. Often with kicks above the waist only. No knees & elbows. Kicking with the feet - wearing shin & instep pads or foot pads.

Muay Thai
Boxing hands, Thai kicks using the shin & ball of foot (for the foot jab). Low kicks allowed, no leg or foot protection other than maybe an elasticated anklet. Knees and elbows allowed , although often elbows are taken out in the West.

[Cain]

I see.... guess that explains it, thanx

|Cain|

[YODA]

Lots of generalisations but basically yes that's it.

[cyclepath]

Don't forget Thai also features "cat strangling" music.

[Cain]

'cat strangling' music???? :confused:

oh r u talking about the dance which the fighters perform before the bout?

|Cain|

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by YODA
Muay Thai
Boxing hands, Thai kicks using the shin & ball of foot (for the foot jab). Low kicks allowed, no leg or foot protection other than maybe an elasticated anklet. Knees and elbows allowed , although often elbows are taken out in the West.

I'm not sure of the exact rules, but there also seems to be some rudimentary grappling allowed. Like grabbing around the head to pull onto knee strikes. All other things being equal, I'd take on a kickboxer rather than a Thai boxer any day of the week.

Mike

[Cain]

Hmm...ya, the thai fighters also have an extremely high leves of fitness......I never saw kickboxers in action though, I thought the both were same until someone told me otherwise...

|Cain|

[YODA]

Originally posted by Mike Flanagan
I'd take on a kickboxer rather than a Thai boxer any day of the week.

Mike


Absolutely!

[Phoenix]

Yeah well, except that the newer kickboxers are all training in Muay Thai now.

[morphus]

Don't think i'd like to face a muay thai fighter - very quick ..very hard..very brutal.

WOOhOO....just realised i've past 300 posts, some of them with some thing sensible to say ..i hope :p

[JiGGa]

Kickboxing
Boxing hands & Karate kicks. Often with kicks above the waist only. No knees & elbows. Kicking with the feet - wearing shin & instep pads or foot pads.

Muay Thai
Boxing hands, Thai kicks using the shin & ball of foot (for the foot jab). Low kicks allowed, no leg or foot protection other than maybe an elasticated anklet. Knees and elbows allowed , although often elbows are taken out in the West.

hmmmmmm.....
As far as I know kickboxers do also leg kicks and they also kick with the shin, I thinks they took these things from muay thai but they sure do believe me. expect a kickboxer to legkick u also.

There is not that mutch difference, but muay guys are also good close fighters caus of knees and elbows I believe.
You should also know kb and mt have no ground work remind this when you're fighting one.

[Saz]

Personally, I'd rather go up against almost any fighter than a Muay Thai fighter. They scare me! ;)

[nicolo]

There is a fine difference...

Kickboxing drew upon the influences of Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu and includes the boxing handwork. It flourished primarily in the West.
Muay Thai is an ancient Siamese fighting technique that utilizes the so-called eight limbs of your body. Hands, feet, elbows and knees...you can include head too in the militarized version of muay Thai.
In many kung-fu and karate vs. Muay Thai matches, the thai fighters easily pummeled their opponents into submission. In terms of effectiveness, muay Thai has proven time and time again that it is the dominant stand up style. When people fight in "kickboxing" nowadays it is usually under watered-down muay Thai type rules. Leg kicks are allow but elbowing isn't. Or no knees to the head but only to the body. No stand up clinching and throws. People tried to fight against the effectiveness of muay Thai by altering it's rules...things that make it what it is.

To the rest of the world there is no "kickboxing" but Muay Thai. I think what's misleading is that people see a karate fighter in a kickboxing match using Thai leg kicks and they just assume that it is karate or tae kwon do. They don't know that they are just borrowing techniques from Thai Boxing. Nowadays in K-1 for example almost every fighter uses muay Thai techniques minus the elbowing and stand-up clinching.
There are some ground techniques and multiple attacker techniques in older versions of muay Thai...like muay Boran, chaiya, etc

[SoKKlab]

I'm not sure of the exact rules, but there also seems to be some rudimentary grappling allowed. Like grabbing around the head to pull onto knee strikes. All other things being equal, I'd take on a kickboxer rather than a Thai boxer any day of the week.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike I don't wish to be pedantic, but the Chap Ko skills (Grappling) in Muay Thai are not Rudimentary. They are very developed. The most overlooked part of Muay Thai, particularly in the West, is it's Grappling and Throwing.

Within The Ring rules Muay Thai (the Sport) there are also Throws (Wiang) but these are limited to Inside and Outside Reap, Uprootings etc from the Clinch and The Cross Buttock, Half a Hip Throw. Note that Full Hip throws are banned as a ring technique.

In Muay Boran there are many other Throws and other techniques, strikes, limb destructions etc including Banned in the Ring techniques.

Nicolo's post above was a good one and pretty much sums it up.
Except to say that when refering to Ground Work in Thai systems, we are talking about the seperate art of Ling Lom (Air Monkey) which is not only a Ground system, but contains many Ground Techniques and Fighting.

The Five Classical Thai Martial Arts are known in their entirety as Pahuyuth (Multi-Faceted Fighting Art).

Three are Armed systems:
Krabi Krabong-Sword, Staff etc
Fandab-Knife Fighting system
Awud Thai-Any weapons, all implements

Two are unarmed arts:
Muay Boran(Muay Thai-Thaiboxing)
and Ling Lom

Ling Lom is where Muay Boran (Old style Muay thai) came from, the two parted company around 1700s. Up until that time, Muay Thai fighters would still use some quintessentially Ling lom techniques (Rolls, Falls, Locks etc).

Ling Lom contains the seed of Muay Boran, plus a lot more as well, including many Arm, Leg, wrist etc locks, Pressure points, Defence from the Ground against a standing attacker, Fighting on the ground etc.

Most of the basic techniques are the same as old style Muay Thai (muay Boran), except there are more of them in Ling Lom.

Ling Lom contains all the elbows, knees, punches (Plus some Palm strikes etc) and the kicks from Muay Boran, plus a few that are it's own.

Including my bestest favourite kick in the world and the snazziest Low Roundhouse that you've ever seen.

Damn, I've come across as pedantic now. Sorry....

[SoKKlab]

Once again forgetting to answer the original question.
Muay thai (as a sport)has nothing to do with Kickboxing, other than the fact that fighters in the K-1 are using muay thai lite techniques, which K-1 kickboxing has appropriated from Muay Thai and not bothered to mention it.

Of course most of the top fighters in the K-1 are Muay thaisters like Hoost, Aerts etc etc. Of course by the definitions of the word Kick+Boxing then anything involving these two functions are that.

Blahblahblah, i'll shut up now...

[nicolo]

nah don't shutup sokklab...you're on a roll
yes muay thai is only a small part of the old style arts or pahuyuth as you said. There's more to it than just a simple "kickboxing" type of style of fighting. Some of the spectacular Dancing Monkey (ling lum) techniques are a good example of this.

[moromoro]

forgot headbutts

[moromoro]

sorry thats in bareknuckle boxing....

[moromoro]

meant to say bareknuckle BURMESE boxing.... some of the knockouts are downright devastating

[AsSaSiN]

SoKKlab are Hoost and Aerts really Thai Boxers? I mean the K1 website does differentiate, in Jean - Claudes profile, it says hes US Thai Boxing Champ, but in aerts and hoost it says kickboxing. If they do do Thai, im a very happy person, because they are exceptionaly fighters showcasing excellent skills.

[SoKKlab]

Yup Hoost and Aerts come from a Muay Thai background and have gone where the money is (K-1).

[SoKKlab]

Yeah BTW Burmese Boxing (Bama Lethwei) (The ring sport side of it) contains Headbutts and more Legal throwing techniques than Ring Rules Muay Thai. Fought either Bare-Knuckle or with Hand Wraps.

The fights are hysterical, imagine your favourite Pub fight of all time..Because you can't win on points, it's Knock Out or Get Knocked Out.

My definition:
Kickboxing is like a Magazine, lightweight, throwaway, useful for its intended purpose, but something that you probably won't keep.

Muay Thai is like a Great Novel (War and Peace), something that, the more you read it, the more you understand...

[Cain]

Pretty much some good info there! :eek:

|Cain|

[crovax612]

Here's a really great site that explains the differences between Kickboxing and Muay thai, as well as the history of Muay Thai.

http://www.arach.net.au/~burnie/muay.html

I also tend to agree that Kickboxing is watered down Muay Thai, or at least nothing more but full contact karate. I taught as a kid by my old Karate teacher (who also taught my class Kickboxing) that Kickboxing came as a Japanese combination of Boxing and Karate, which was created to combat boxing. I always found that story strange though, seeing as how I always figured a Karate fighter would be able to kick the crap out of a boxer because the boxer would most likely not know what to do against a kick.


Anyway, I believe that the reason why Muay Thai is such an effective MA is not only because of it's effective techniques, but also because you spend so much time in the ring actually using these techniques in real fights. Keen asthetic doing is the best way to learn something and Muay Thai definately has that down in terms of fighting real opponents.


It's like my Muay thai teacher told me on my first day (himself a blackbelt in Kenpo Kratae and Tae Kwan Do) "How are you going to give a blackbelt to a ten year old? Sure, he's learned all these techniques and memorized stances etc., but he most likely won't know what to do against a real oppnent, it's a whole different mindset." That's when I ask "..So, I take it there really isn't some sort of belt system involved here...." he simply smiled and said "Oh no, you EARN your merit in the ring:D !"

That's when I went "Whoa:eek: ....cool:cool: ."

Note: MY teacher doesn't think Muay Thai is "THE BEST" MA, he's told me that all styles are great, but it's how much time and dedication your willing to put into it that makes you good at that style (and a good fighter).

[wayofthedragon]

I read in Black Belt magazine today that Joe Lewis took the JKD that Bruce taught him, and combined it with boxing and karate to create the sport of kickboxing........................................ .............


I too at one point thought kick boxing and mui thai were one in the same. I always thought there was American kickboxing, and mui thai kickboxing. I thought they were both kickboxing, but just different styles. I was confused:confuse:

[FISH]

Originally posted by Mike Flanagan
I'm not sure of the exact rules, but there also seems to be some rudimentary grappling allowed. Like grabbing around the head to pull onto knee strikes. All other things being equal, I'd take on a kickboxer rather than a Thai boxer any day of the week.

Mike

Yep the grappling skills are emphasized alot! Like you said to control the head for knee and elbow strikes not like jujitsu or anything.The amount of low kicking is absolutlely devastating to anyone not in Muay Thai their shins are like steel.Shodokan I believe its called is the only one I can think of that compares.A guy who looked maybe 5'6 150lbs. kicked right through 2 bats at the sweet spot:eek:

If I remember right no non-Thai fighter has ever gone to Thailand and won a match fighting by their rules.That is like tee ball for them they start typically from 5-8 yrs old.

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by FISH
If I remember right no non-Thai fighter has ever gone to Thailand and won a match fighting by their rules.

Hmm,
depends upon your definition of Non-Thai Fighter.

Alot of the Dutch 'Kickboxers' like Rob Kaman, Ramon Dekker etc hammered alot of Thai's at their own game (Muay Thai).

At this point you could argue that they had both come from a 'Kickboxing' (WAKO inc. Low Kicks style) background and moved over into Muay Thai. Kaman particularly.

Plenty of foreign fighters (Muay Thai stylists) have beaten their Thai opponents at Muay Thai. Ronnie Green, Dekker, Kaman (All excellent world champions), insert big list here.

[AsSaSiN]

Just like people come over to the uk to whoop out asses at cricket :D

[Nakthai]

If you want a good example of K-1 vs Muay Thai, watch Remy Bonjasky. In 2003 final, he logged less the 7 minutes fight time all the way through to holding the prize. apart from the fight vs Musashi, most of his knockouts/downs were with his knee strikes.

In the Muay Thai competitions, most matches don't go the full time, as most opponents are knockout by the 2nd or third round.

I also think, In K-1 you aren't allowed to clinch , or hold for more that 2-3 seconds without intent to throw a strike. While in the "real" muay Thai bouts, i think you can grapple for as long as you like.

[Intan86]

I think it has similarity but Muay Thai is much more brutal!

[TheMasterSword]

Muy Thai is def more brutal....

i was wondering someone mentioned that the full hip throw was banned... why was it??? and what other moves are banned from the ring????

[SoKKlab]

Currently Banned Ring Rules Muay Thai techniques are
Full Hip Throws-as It's dificult to grab hold of the thrower in Boxing Gloves, hence the Throwee tends to land very hard on their head, leading to 'spiking' knock-outs.

Techniques such as 'Giant Fells the Girl' are banned-
a Pushover, lift and trip, straight backwards from the Clinch, so that the adversary falls on their Head.

This Throw may come back into Ring Use, because of the Matches between Muay Thai fighters and San Shou Fighters.

Supplex Throws (Of which there are afew in the Thai Arts) are banned, again no chance of grabbing on in Boxing gloves.

Obvious Ones like 'Wrestling' techniques, such as Takedowns of the legs etc, are against the Rules. Although they are good Solid Ling Lom techniques and taught in the Thai Arts, but aren't Muay Thai techniques (Not for about Three Hundred years-Bring them Back!)

'Dirty-Pool' techniques are borderline grey techniques that you don't do, unless someone does to you, including:

Pak Luk Toi (Drop Double Elbows onto upcoming 45 degree Kick).

Hak Ngoung Arawan -Catching A 45 Degree Kick or Full Roundhouse Under the Arm and then Dropping Sok Tong (Downward Elbow Smash) onto the KneeCap or the Thigh of the Kicking Leg.

Stepping on the Caught Leg (My Favourite!) is a definite No-No, as Fighters Can't function with Legs shaped like Curly-Wurly's.

Also Twisting the Foot of the attacking Kicking Leg is frowned upon.

There's a whole load more of these. Burmese Boxing (Bama Lethwei-very similar to Muay thai) has Less Rules for their Ring Version.

[darran]

meant to say bareknuckle BURMESE boxing.... some of the knockouts are downright devastating

Burmese Boxing and Muay Boran are identical, practically!

[darran]

Currently Banned Ring Rules Muay Thai techniques are

This Throw may come back into Ring Use, because of the Matches between Muay Thai fighters and San Shou Fighters.



when??? this will be great.

By the way apparently Thai clinch grappling is as deep as Greco Roman wrestling. My experience with Muay Thai tells me NEVER underestimate Thai clinch.

[iamraisen]

burmese boxing is quite different to thai boxing, especially in competition. headbutts, and throwdowns are allowed, and no gloves are ever worn. there are a coupkle of burmese boxing matches at www.thaing.net

[darran]

burmese boxing is quite different to thai boxing, especially in competition. headbutts, and throwdowns are allowed, and no gloves are ever worn. there are a coupkle of burmese boxing matches at www.thaing.net

seen them.

No, Muay is very much similar to lethwei. The techniques and rythm are very similar to each other. Pra Jeaw Sua Muay http://www.muaythai.com

Modern day Muay Thai matches are different but the roots are the same, almost so similar infact that they both could be related. The Thais and Burmese have annual fights to commemorate Naikhanomtom. Thais have dominated these events for the last 30 years....

....I think Thai (especially Northern) and Burmese are very similar.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

apart from the headbutts and the allowance of certain types of throw there is not a big difference between thai and burmese boxing. at the base of it- the techniques used and the training methods- they are almost identical. its only the rules of the ring that make them different (and using the hemp wraps isnt as lethal as you might think, gloves are only used to protect a fighters hand and to prevent cuts- not to protect the guy being hit)

[glenchuy]

KB spars allow knees, but don't allow elbows, although at KB class, elbow tecniques are taught, for self-defense purposes.

[Neo_Hybrid]

i train under a shotokahn instucter and have seen thai boxers fight and DEAR GOD!!!!! these guys are brutal!!!. in official competions we have to fight using minimal contact but when we train at our dojo we spar full force, not very fun when your only 16 and have to fight a 32 year old 6foot 2 monster :confused: but after seeing these guys fight id give my right arm to fight him over any of these guys!!

[Scarlet Mist]

Won't getting shin kicked in the head make you a bad student? I am seriously worried.

[Poop-Loops]

Don't worry. Being slow isn't so bad. At least you don't have to wait for people. They have to wait for you. :D

PL

[jabcrosshook]

Personally, I'd rather go up against almost any fighter than a Muay Thai fighter. They scare me! ;)

Depends what rules we are talking :cool:

I'd rather fight a thai boxer in MMA than a BJJ person or Judoka with striking history :eek:

[Poop-Loops]

Yeah, but a BJJ guy will put you in a lock so you can tap out probably, where as a Thai Boxer will try to re-arrange your face. =/

PL

[alex_000]

Yeah, but a BJJ guy will put you in a lock so you can tap out probably, where as a Thai Boxer will try to re-arrange your face. =/



true but if he ignores your tapping and continue you'll have some serious damage somewhere or you will pass out and he can arrange your face too.

[jabcrosshook]

Yeah, but a BJJ guy will put you in a lock so you can tap out probably, where as a Thai Boxer will try to re-arrange your face. =/

PL

And a Judoka/BJJer dumps me on my a**e or puts me in a weird ankle lock that breaks bones before I feel it, I wouldn't be too chuffed, either.

[Poop-Loops]

1) We're assuming there is a ref there, right?

2) You feel it BEFORE it breaks. Not the other way around. Unless they are super ninjas and inject you with an ass-load of drugs before they do it to you.

PL

[Apotheosis]

Id rather fight either one than someone who knew both, like Silva(not positive, but believe he does both Muay Thai and BJJ).If I saw him coming at me with an angry look on his face, I would turn my tail and run the other way.

[KatyBelle]

Ok I'll have a go....

Kickboxing
Boxing hands & Karate kicks. Often with kicks above the waist only. No knees & elbows. Kicking with the feet - wearing shin & instep pads or foot pads.

Muay Thai
Boxing hands, Thai kicks using the shin & ball of foot (for the foot jab). Low kicks allowed, no leg or foot protection other than maybe an elasticated anklet. Knees and elbows allowed , although often elbows are taken out in the West.
I was also confused about whether i was learning kickboxing or muay thai and thought i finally got it sussed.

When i asked my Sensai he said that he calls it kickboxing because he doesn't include all the more disciplined/spiritual side of muay thai/thai boxing, what do you think?

I think a lot of what i learn centres more around a self defense point of view rather than in the ring training.

???

[Nick K]

I had the pleasure of a Muay Thai taster session with Sandy Holt a few weeks back. That man is as hard as a coffin nail, only quite a bit funnier. If he didn't live in the wild uncivilised North, and I wasn't an old man with a wooden bladder and a dicky leg and asouthern softy to boot, I'd join his club. It's a really uncompromising art - fabulous. Mucho scary, mind.