que sera serak

[Rogin]

Just curious, how many of you silat players have come across, trained in, etc. silat serak? Just wondering what your opinions are on the effectiveness and style of serak. Personally it looks like it is very practical but will take long road to become effective.

Rogin

[pesilat]

Just curious, how many of you silat players have come across, trained in, etc. silat serak? Just wondering what your opinions are on the effectiveness and style of serak. Personally it looks like it is very practical but will take long road to become effective.

Rogin

I trained in it for a couple of years and my instructor trained in Bukti Negara (a "child" art of Serak) for several years and in Serak for a couple of years. Much of the Silat I do is rooted, one way or another, in Serak. I think it's very practical.

But, in my experience, you're right. Long road to become effective with it. I had been training with my instructor for 3 years and doing Silat (not specifically Serak but, like I said, very Serak influenced) nearly every day of that 3 years before I felt like I might actually be able to pull any of it off.

However, I think it's been more than worth it in the long run :)

Mike

[Rogin]

I trained in it for a couple of years and my instructor trained in Bukti Negara (a "child" art of Serak) for several years and in Serak for a couple of years. Much of the Silat I do is rooted, one way or another, in Serak.

How so? I'm curious, when you say it's "rooted" in Serak, do you mean applying techniques from other arts into a Serak framework?

BTW saw the clips on your site, pretty cool. It helped my sapu sink in conceptually for me.

Rogin

[pesilat]

How so? I'm curious, when you say it's "rooted" in Serak, do you mean applying techniques from other arts into a Serak framework?

BTW saw the clips on your site, pretty cool. It helped my sapu sink in conceptually for me.

Rogin

Cool :) Glad I could be of help.

I mean that my instructor trained in Bukti Negara with Dan Inosanto and Paul de Thouars for many years, in Serak with Victor de Thouars for several years, in Mande Muda with Dan Inosanto and Herman Suwanda for many years (there's a little Serak influence in Mande Muda, too), and in Kuntao Silat de Thouars with Willem de Thouars (which also has some Serak in it).

I've been training with my instructor for a little over 9 years now, have trained directly with Victor de Thouars (though not as a direct student), at many seminars with Herman Suwanda and Dan Inosanto, and directly with Willem de Thouars (as a direct student).

So by "rooted in" Serak, I mean that there's a lot of Serak influence in the Silat that I do - from a variety of sources. If I had to put it into percentages, I'd say that the Silat I do is about 50% Serak, 10% Harimau, 15% Cimande, 20% Cipecut, and the other 5% is drawn from the rest of the Silat I've been exposed to and trained in (mostly from the Mande Muda - things like Kari, Madi, Cikalong, etc. and some from Uncle Bill like Tji Kompak, Petjut, Kilat, etc.)

Mike

[Rogin]

Thanks, Mike! I've just begun in serak as a student of a student of Victor De Thouars. I find it to be really challenging, but it got me curious as to what forms serak derived from.
I understand there could be up to a 1000 varieties of silat, I was just wondering, through your studies have you noticed if they have similar underlying principles, like base, angle, leverage, and so on?
I'd like to research the history of silat. Any recommendations for reading?

Rogin

[Ular Sawa]

Thanks, Mike! I've just begun in serak as a student of a student of Victor De Thouars. I find it to be really challenging, but it got me curious as to what forms serak derived from.
I understand there could be up to a 1000 varieties of silat, I was just wondering, through your studies have you noticed if they have similar underlying principles, like base, angle, leverage, and so on?
I'd like to research the history of silat. Any recommendations for reading?

Rogin
"The Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia" by Donn F. Draeger

"Pencak Silat in the Indonesian Archipelago" by O'Ong Maryono

Both of these books provide a general overview without the "Silat politics" that
seems prevalent in the US. The Draeger book is easier to find.

[pesilat]

Thanks, Mike! I've just begun in serak as a student of a student of Victor De Thouars. I find it to be really challenging, but it got me curious as to what forms serak derived from.
I understand there could be up to a 1000 varieties of silat, I was just wondering, through your studies have you noticed if they have similar underlying principles, like base, angle, leverage, and so on?
I'd like to research the history of silat. Any recommendations for reading?

Rogin

I'd second the books mentioned by Ular Sawa. I've not read Pak O'ong Maryono but I've read quite a bit of things written by him over the years and can't imagine that his book would be anything other than good.

Donn Draeger's book was published in the early '70s and some of the info is outdated but it's still one of the best resources of general Silat info out there.

As far as Serak specifically - I don't know. Depends on who you ask. Everyone seems to have their own version.

My policy, for what it's worth, is this: "believe what your instructor tells you - but don't take it as gospel."

10 people witness a car accident. No 2 of those witnesses will have seen exactly the same thing - simply because of angles, obstructions, distractions, etc. Even if 2 people see the exact same thing from the exact same angle at the exact same time (which is physically impossible), there will be differences that arise from their individual perceptions. If it was a burgundy car hitting a teal car. One witness may say that it was a brown car and a blue car. Another may say that it was a red car and a green car. Both witnesses are stating what they perceived - and both are telling the truth. But the truth is almost never the same as perceived truth.

Consequently, as I understand it, Pak Serak had a style of fighting that was very effective. He trained Mas Djoet, Mas Roen, and Mas Muhammad (I believe that was the third guy - he's not mentioned often and I think he got kicked out at some point). Mas Djoet and Mas Roen took what Pak Serak taught them and they were really the ones (probably with input from Pak Serak) who formalized a system for teaching what Pak Serak did. Mas Djoet is the best known because he traveled quite a bit and shared the art with quite a few people.

Probably the only person who could answer "what influences did Serak draw from" was Pak Serak - and he's long dead. His students probably knew what they had been told, if anything, and may have had some conjecture of their own. And may have added some of their own flavor to it during the systemization. But the bottom line is that there have been several generations between Pak Serak and today's teachers. In the de Thouars lineage, you've got Mas Djoet to Johann de Vries to his nephews to their nephews (the de Thouars brothers). And you've got Mas Roen to Tisari Mardjuki to Pak Vic (who also trained with his brother Paul and their uncle John). So, at the least, you've got 3 or 4 generations since Pak Serak. And the history would have been passed down, of course, but each passing down would be colored by the perception of the teller and compounded by the perceptions of the previous generations. None were lying - but at this point it'd be pretty much impossible to find the entire truth. Each of the current instructors has a part of the truth.

Of course, this problem isn't limited to Serak. It's true of every martial art and of history in general.

So, I guess this was a very long-winded way of telling you that my advice would be to ask your instructor. Believe what he says. Over time, you'll hear other stories. Some will conflict (at least in part) with what your instructor has told you. Others will confirm it (at least in part). Unless you put together a time machine, you'll never know the truth but if you keep an open mind, use some common sense, and keep your ear to the ground, you should be able to put together something that makes sense to you - and it'll be as close to the truth as anyone in our generation of Silat players is likely to ever get :)

Mike

[Rogin]

Unless you put together a time machine, you'll never know the truth but if you keep an open mind, use some common sense, and keep your ear to the ground, you should be able to put together something that makes sense to you - and it'll be as close to the truth as anyone in our generation of Silat players is likely to ever get :)
Mike

Heheh remind me of the thread I started in the Philosophy forum.

Thanks for that.. I just like hearing different viewpoints, especially from someone with experience.

When it comes down to it, it's going to be about what works and what sticks for me. But I enjoy the information gathering.

Selamat,

Rogin

[pesilat]

Heheh remind me of the thread I started in the Philosophy forum.

Thanks for that.. I just like hearing different viewpoints, especially from someone with experience.

When it comes down to it, it's going to be about what works and what sticks for me. But I enjoy the information gathering.

Selamat,

Rogin

LOL. No problem.

There are a lot of conflicting stories out there about the Serak history. Some claim that Mas Djoet was a Cimande practitioner and that Serak was, somehow, an offshoot of Cimande. I don't doubt that Mas Djoet was exposed to Cimande. And, in fact, I've heard that there's even some pretty solid evidence that he actually trained in Cimande. But to take that and say that "Serak is an offshoot of Cimande" seems a bit of a stretch to me.

Many people that I've talked to feel that Cimande, as one of the older and more predominant systems of Java, almost certainly had some influence on Serak - either material drawn from Cimande or material intended to counter Cimande. Same is true with people claiming there is influence from Chinese Kuntao.

As to the actual truth - impossible for anyone to say at this point in time (at least in my estimation) :)

I don't know - and, honestly, don't really care. And, along the lines of your own comment, I know that what I've gotten from it has helped me in many ways. And it works for me. Anything beyond that is somewhat a moot point.

Mike

[Steve Perry]

LOL. No problem.

There are a lot of conflicting stories out there about Sera history. Some claim that Mas Djoet was a Cimande practitioner and that Serak was, somehow, an offshoot of Cimande. I don't doubt that Mas Djoet was exposed to Cimande. And, in fact, I've heard that there's even some pretty solid evidence that he actually trained in Cimande. But to take that and say that "Serak is an offshoot of Cimande" seems a bit of a stretch to me.

Many people that I've talked to feel that Cimande, as one of the older and more predominant systems of Java, almost certainly had some influence on Serak - either material drawn from Cimande or material intended to counter Cimande. Same is true with people claiming there is influence from Chinese Kuntao.

As to the actual truth - impossible for anyone to say at this point in time (at least in my estimation) :)

I don't know - and, honestly, don't really care. And, along the lines of your own comment, I know that what I've gotten from it has helped me in many ways. And it works for me. Anything beyond that is somewhat a moot point.

Mike

I agree with this, Mike, though some recent academic research indicates a stronger connection to Tjimande (Cimande) than previously thought. At this remove, a lot of what happened in West Java back in the day is impossible to nail down for sure.

I'm up here in the Pacific Northwest, part of Stevan Plinck's Pukulan Pentjak Silat Sera(k) silat group. We believe that Tjimande was the basis for a whole lot of stuff, and that it was very likely the creator of Sera knew Tjimande, since it is one of the oldest and most widely-practiced systems. At the very least, he would have had to come up with answers for Tjimande; at the most, he would have incorporated some of it into his personal art.

According to folks who know, everybody stole from everybody. If they saw something that worked, they would figure out a way to work into their style. If I had to point to one big difference between Sera and Tjimande, it would be what constitutes distance. Both use all the ranges, but Tjimande seems more comfortable a little farther out than Sera does.

I've argued at some length about the history with Pendekar Sanders and his folks -- their dates, and what they call Sera don't work for me. But, as you say, the history is not as important as the art, and what we do, wherever it came from, isn't what Tjimande players do today.

STeve

[grimel]

Personally it looks like it is very practical but will take long road to become effective.

Define long road and effective. In my Serak class we have another student who works with violent juvenile sex offenders. He gets to "play" several times a week. He found the Serak he learned in the first 2 months to be orders of manitude more effective than everything taught on the job. Sambut 1 handles a large chunk of life.

BTW, are you at Pak Vic's school?

edit: Never mind, you're in Oakland. Ca. duh!

[Steve Perry]

Of course, we think Sera is an effective art, but it does take some time to become adept at it. True, there are some things you can learn and use pretty quick, especially against people with little or no knowledge of fighting, but the idea behind the art -- at least how we do it -- is to learn how to deal with folks who are as well-trained as you are.

You can learn Djuru One in a few minutes, but that's not the same as being able to apply it against a fighter with some skill ...

Steve

[Rogin]

Define long road and effective. In my Serak class we have another student who works with violent juvenile sex offenders. He gets to "play" several times a week. He found the Serak he learned in the first 2 months to be orders of manitude more effective than everything taught on the job. Sambut 1 handles a large chunk of life.

BTW, are you at Pak Vic's school?

edit: Never mind, you're in Oakland. Ca. duh!

Sambut 1! So destructive... I take it, he skips the elbow smash and the neck break? :D

I'm learning under Guru Ray, who just received his Guru Muda ranking from Pak Vic. He's a Grandson Guru, three generations of Guru's From Pak Vic, to Guru Mike, to Guru Ray. Pak Vic wrote that that hasn't happened since 1925 when Pak Mardjoeki became a Sera Guru.
Where are you located, grimel?

Rogin

[grimel]

Oak Ridge under Guru Jerry McCleary.

[Crucible]

"Just curious, how many of you silat players have come across, trained in, etc. silat serak? Just wondering what your opinions are on the effectiveness and style of serak. Personally it looks like it is very practical but will take long road to become effective.

Rogin"

I think its Highly Practical, One of the better known practitioners of Serak is Cliff Stewart, who at times has been the bodyguard to the royal family of Saudi Arabia, Mr. T, and Larry Flynt. If your Larry Flynts bodyguard you need to be very good. Another Serak persona of note is Cass Magda who was Ozzy Osbournes Bodyguard. Given that both gentleman had to protect highly visible individuals who can recieve a threat at any time it says something that they chose Pentjak Silat Serak/ Bukti Negara as thier primary foundation.

[Silatyogi]

Deffinetly you can quickly be able to defend your self but to be realy realy good and to pull this art of against good fighters or multiple attackers it takes lots of training. Just like anything in life you want to get good at it you have to bust your ass. Everytime I think I get good and I pull some things off in sparring or training I go back to my instructor (Guru Cliff Stewart) and I get used as a mop against the floor!

Serak is deffinetly very effective and its a path worth traveling no matter how long it takes to get good.

-santi

[Wali]

Deffinetly you can quickly be able to defend your self but to be realy realy good and to pull this art of against good fighters or multiple attackers it takes lots of training. Just like anything in life you want to get good at it you have to bust your ass. Everytime I think I get good and I pull some things off in sparring or training I go back to my instructor (Guru Cliff Stewart) and I get used as a mop against the floor!

Serak is deffinetly very effective and its a path worth traveling no matter how long it takes to get good.

-santi
Hey Silatyogi,

I just got back from LA from doing a few seminars for Guru Cliff with Steve Benitez, where you there?

Regards,
Wali

[Silatyogi]

Hi Wali!

Yes I was just there last weekend with Guru Cliff for his Silat Camp and doing some private training with him.

It was great! His house was filled that whole weekend with at least 12 snoring, farting, funky, Silat players!

Lorenzo did a good job of showing some basics in Walisongo.
take care

-Santi

[tellner]

I had personal obligations last weekend and couldn't make it to the LA Silat bash. How was it? Who was teaching?

[Silatyogi]

Master Ahati "Kilindi" Iyi: African Martial Arts
Mestre Dennis Newsome: Capoeira - Angola
Master Graciella Casillas: Filipino Knife and Stick Science
Master Rick Suskind: Bando - Cobra System
Maha Guru Cliff Stewart: LA Kilat Pukulan Pencak Silat
Guru Thomas Lomax: LA Kilat Pukulan Pencak Silat
Guru Lorenzo : Wali Songo Silat

Also Ron Chapel came to teach about structural integrity and alignment this was very cool!

He is from Ed Parkers orginal Black belts

[britsilatinmt]

hi guys,
Is Lorenzo one of Cliff's students?

Did the Wali Songo seem very similar, or quite different to the Serak?
best wishes :)

[Silatyogi]

Lorenzo is both student of Guru Cliff & Student of Guru Steven Benitez

As for Serak & Wali Songo.

Personally? I am more of a Serak man myself. I am always biased when it comes to silat because of my love for Serak. I believe that Serak has everything you need for all ranges of combat. Also I have trained it longer.

My Serak teacher asked me to learn Wali Songo & Silat tuo because he said it would help me get a deeper understand of Silat and "Old school" Serak.

I will say this....Wali Songo Kicks ass and is a really good system. I am just a begginer in Wali Songo. I have done Inosanto - Mande muda and maphilindo Silat for 6 years. And I personally like Wali songo's fluidity, conditioning and application much more. ALthough similar to Mande muda its more fluid. I can't explain it but you should see it on video. Guru Cliff showed me tapes of Guru Tony felix and Guru Steven I was blown away with their movement.

I have only started to learn the beggining postures (Kacing, buaya, Gelek, Harimau, ) and some of the fighting application for the ground work from Guru Cliff. It has deffinetly improved my ability to move on the ground and also has opened up more my ability to understand my Serak more.

From what I have seen Wali Songo is immensely fluid and very brutal.

If you do Serak it will help you become more fluid if you study or learn Wali Songo or Silat Tuo. Its good to see how the Indonesians do Sera & Cimande and Silat Tuo. Its a bit different than the Dutch Indonesian "Serak"

I like the effectiveness and brutally simple approach of the Dutch Indonesian Serak but its nice to see the "Classical" Silat Tuo Silat of Wali Songo in action as well.

Anyhow a cool excercise I have adopted from Wali Songo is "Gelek"

Guru CLiff told me to use it for my development of Djurus and lower body/ conditioning.

I use it to do all my serak djurus with and also use it to practice my cloud hands in Qi Gong. I showed my accupuncturist Gelek ...she said that was Secret Qi Gong in China!

On another note Its clear to me that Serak has - Cimande,Cibandar, and Cikalong and Some Bagua, Xing Yi and Yang style Tai chi in there. If you look at fighting application of Yang style tai chi you will see motions almost exact to Djurus 2, 3 , 6 from Serak also you will see the gaurdian hand at work as well. Also Watch Shou Yu Liang's Bagua Video he has Sapus, Bisets, Kenjits, Lempar Lengan, the only difference is he uses circle foot work to get in to them. Double palm change in Bagua is basically Kenjit training from circular motion. Its my humble opinion that when you put all lankahs together in serak its a circle....but i could be wrong.

What makes it amazing for me is Serak really has everything you need in combat. And when your not sure you check your djurus or langkahs and you will find the answer.

"a little Silat Goes a long way."

- Silat Yogi

[tellner]

I'm not sure it's accurate to say that Serak "has" Taiji, Xing-Yi etc. There are certainly movements and techniques that are found in both, but that would be like saying Karate has Capoeira because they both have a thrusting front kick. There are only so many efficient close-range standup techniques out there.

If you want to do some old school Serak and can make the drive up I-5 you're always welcome to train with us up in Oregon. Guru Stewart has been promising to come up and visit/train with Guru Plinck for a while now. I'm about ready to send my wife down to knock him on the head, throw him in the trunk and bring him up here by force :)

[britsilatinmt]

Thanks for that Silatyogi,

ah, so would i be right in saying serak doesnt use gelek? what do you use in serak to power the attacks? I vaguely remember Tony Felix showing me a little, and saying there was a bit more movement of the waist later on in the system.

I wouldnt mind seeing a bit more, are there any video links on the web? Ive heard some good things about it.

If you like the Wali Songo as a beginner, you'll love it when you get onto the pukulan.

best wishes

[Silatyogi]

<<"I'm not sure it's accurate to say that Serak "has" Taiji, Xing-Yi etc. There are certainly movements and techniques that are found in both, but that would be like saying Karate has Capoeira because they both have a thrusting front kick. There are only so many efficient close-range standup techniques out there. >>

Well I have done the research with both Bagua teachers and Tai chi Yang style. They both have said it has many similarities to Silat. Xing yi not so much but I have seen the similarities in it. I also had the privialge of seeing "Closed door" Tai chi videos of the old masters from china from the early 80's that Bagua master Sifu John Bracy showed me. what they where doing looked VERY VERY VERY Similar to stuff I have seen Pendekar Paul do on Video. Also Watch BK Frantzis in action you will also see many similarities. Now that may come to a shock to some.

I believe I read somewhere on Pencaksilat.com that Pa Serak was influenced by 9 arts 5 indonesian 2 Indian and 2 Chinese. So to me it doesn't come as such a surprise. Serak is an internal system and many of the principles are in most of the "Internal arts" from China. Yes you are right its not exactly the same. I personaly prefer Serak over training other arts but i can not help but notice that what we do can be enhanced if you understand how internal principles work regardless of where they come from. And if you have never been hit by a real Bagua guy or Tai chi player you should. You will learn to respect more the art you practice and also learn to enhance what you are doing if you can be open to see what may have influenced the art you practice today. Its like a good modern composer of today will research every music under the sun to understand more what he or she is doing. You can see a distinct similarity in them and in serak that you don't see so much in other silat systems. And they are more related than lets say Karate and Capoeira. Anybody who really understands body mechanics on a subtle level and understand structure will be able to look at Serak and lets say Yang Style tai chi and go ok the fighting application is the same the body ailgnment is the same. The entry is the same. The displacement of energy or the unbalancing is the same. What might be different is cultural aspect of the arts. Also I will admit that what most "see" as being Tai chi and Bagua these days is in no way the real fighting arts that they once where. If you can have the oppurtunity to train with a real master in those systems you should deffinetly do so just for the experience and also to see....does my ability and my art hold up? Only a few masters can really show the real stuff. Its just like Serak... Many claim they know it but only a handful do.

<<If you want to do some old school Serak and can make the drive up I-5 you're always welcome to train with us up in Oregon. Guru Stewart has been promising to come up and visit/train with Guru Plinck for a while now. I'm about ready to send my wife down to knock him on the head, throw him in the trunk and bring him up here by force ">>

Thanks for the Invite. I have been wanting to train with Guru Plink for a while now. I was blown away by him in 2000. I had a great time with him in Miami when he was at Uncle Bill's Gathering. I have been in contact with Guru Plink about training. Also I am Sure Cliff has plans to see him as well.

Take care

Hormat,

Silatyogi

[tellner]

Thanks for that Silatyogi,

ah, so would i be right in saying serak doesnt use gelek? what do you use in serak to power the attacks? I vaguely remember Tony Felix showing me a little, and saying there was a bit more movement of the waist later on in the system.

I wouldnt mind seeing a bit more, are there any video links on the web? Ive heard some good things about it.

If you like the Wali Songo as a beginner, you'll love it when you get onto the pukulan.

best wishes

There is certainly gelek in Serak. The way Guru Plinck teaches it it's a bit smaller and subtler than what you see in forms competition, and it's introduced gradually so that it's in balance with the rest of the teaching progression. He considers it bad for the sutdent's development to emphasize advanced things too soon. Fundamentals first.

I don't mean to shill, but his first two Serak tapes include a lot of good basic material on the system.

[britsilatinmt]

interesting, thanks for that..

i dont suppose you know if theres anyone training in the montana area?

best wishes

[Silatyogi]

<<There is certainly gelek in Serak. The way Guru Plinck teaches it it's a bit smaller and subtler than what you see in forms competition, and it's introduced gradually so that it's in balance with the rest of the teaching progression. He considers it bad for the sutdent's development to emphasize advanced things too soon. Fundamentals first.>>

Yeah Guru Cliff actually told me that Guru Stevan Plinck Teaches Gelek aswell. Its true that core moves and turns a lot in serak but its deffinetly more subtle than most silat styles. I try to work Gelek both exaggerated and then subtle to improve my movement.

<<I don't mean to shill, but his first two Serak tapes include a lot of good basic material on the system.>>


Those two tapes are great. I really found a ton of valuable information on them. I have not seen the 3rd one yet. Are there anymore avaliable? I also enjoyed the old Paladin Bukti tape.

tellner, britsilatinmt,

thanks for sharing and for the posts.


Take care

Hormat,

Silatyogi

[tellner]

Well I have done the research with both Bagua teachers and Tai chi Yang style. They both have said it has many similarities to Silat. Xing yi not so much but I have seen the similarities in it. I also had the privialge of seeing "Closed door" Tai chi videos of the old masters from china from the early 80's that Bagua master Sifu John Bracy showed me. what they where doing looked VERY VERY VERY Similar to stuff I have seen Pendekar Paul do on Video. Also Watch BK Frantzis in action you will also see many similarities. Now that may come to a shock to some.


That's not much of a shock. We've got a couple of Taiji players and a student who has been doing Ba Gua for about ten years under a well-known lineage that will remain nameless :rolleyes: He learned good body mechanics, a lot of form and technique, precious little about how to use what they were teaching him. He's to polite to say so, but I think his old teacher resents the "secrets" that he's learning where secrets = basic Silat understanding and applications.

It's not that the neijia systems lack this sort of thing. They are incredibly sophisticated. It's an indictment of of teachers who combine greed with racism and secrecy to the detriment of their students and the art. But that's a topic for a different rant.

I see a lot of similarities in how things are done. It's easy to say "What they're doing is similar". It's much riskier to say "This comes from that", when you're talking about oral history second or third hand. I've already stepped on my manhood and shot myself in the foot on things like this and am trying to get that diplomacy merit badge :)

I believe I read somewhere on Pencaksilat.com that Pa Serak was influenced by 9 arts 5 indonesian 2 Indian and 2 Chinese. So to me it doesn't come as such a surprise. Serak is an internal system and many of the principles are in most of the "Internal arts" from China.

That would be Guru Victor's (http://www.serak.com) site.

if you have never been hit by a real Bagua guy or Tai chi player you should.

Hey, I *like* all my internal organs in the same place they started out in. Why would I want a ruptured spleen? Seriously, there is nothing like good internal Chinese MA. The problem is that to find the nuggets you have to pan a lot of crystal-gazing bark-eating gravel.

You can see a distinct similarity in them and in serak that you don't see so much in other silat systems. And they are more related than lets say Karate and Capoeira.

Certainly. Just trying to avoid stepping on toes. I see even stronger similarities with the little bit of Kalaripayittu that Mushtaq Ali al-Ansari (http://www.zulfakr.com) has shown us. Unfortunately, good South Asian martial arts is even harder to find than Silat or neijia.


If you can have the oppurtunity to train with a real master in those systems you should deffinetly do so just for the experience and also to see....does my ability and my art hold up? Only a few masters can really show the real stuff. Its just like Serak... Many claim they know it but only a handful do.

Ain't that the truth.

We went through a number of Taiji teachers in the area trying to find one who had the internal body mechanics and who could fight. There must be one somewhere around here, but we've come up empty so far.

[Silatyogi]

<<I see even stronger similarities with the little bit of Kalaripayittu that Mushtaq Ali al-Ansari has shown us. Unfortunately, good South Asian martial arts is even harder to find than Silat or neijia. >>


That is deffinetly true.. there is a Kalari guy in Miami but he is hard to find and is not training any one! But what I have seen from that is indeed similar and very related. John Bracy , Bk Frantzis are both phenomenal Tai chi , Xing Yi, Bagua players. I had the oppurtunity to train with Bracy twice. He was very open with his fighting principles and with sharing information and most of all testing to see if it worked.....all I can say is OUCH. He is also very much scientific about stuff and not mystical so its great to see how he approaches things. I showed him a bit of Serak he said he has enjoyed working with silat players cause its similar to what he does and he said most silat styles have a lot of internal principles in their training and forms. We talked a little about application from both Bagua & Silat and they are very similar. A lot of the throws, strikes, and off balancing. There leverage is not so intricate as I have experienced in serak but its similar and still efective.
Their most impressive thing I noticed was their use of what they call verticle power and spinal suspension.

anyhow please don't misunderstand what i meant that Serak "COMES FROM this or that". I apologize what i meant to say is that it is my opinion that you can see the influence of the internal arts and that somewhere down the line the founders of Serak must have experienced some internal bad ass who shared some secrets....or they themselves where these bad asses.

[tellner]

anyhow please don't misunderstand what i meant that Serak "COMES FROM this or that". I apologize what i meant to say is that it is my opinion that you can see the influence of the internal arts and that somewhere down the line the founders of Serak must have experienced some internal bad ass who shared some secrets....or they themselves where these bad asses.

Not a problem at all. I'm not one of those Indonesian chauvanists who believes that there is no Chinese influence or anything like that. If there's one thing the Malay culture is great at it's syncretism. With at least three high cultures mixing in one place the old Javanese fought all sorts of people. The survivors are bound to have picked up something...