[Freestyle/Sporting MA] Is it possible to chamber against a good wrestler?

[STASH]

I tried it once and my opponent, a very experienced wrestler took me straight to the ground. Personally I think you get more power out of a kick when you chamber it first but I would rather sacrifice power then get taken down, any thoughts?

[YODA]

Kicking in general is not a good idea against a good wrestler - unless he's almost out of it as in Pete Williams Vs Mark Coleman. (Ouch!)

The key to beating a good wrestler standing is footwork, fast hands, and an extremely good knowledge of HIS game! (Although an Uzi 9mm may help LOL!)

[STASH]

Oh man...I have clips of that fight on my computer...Coleman didnt see that one coming! LOL

Yea, I would have to agree with you Yoda, kicking isnt that great of an idea against an experienced wrestler (unless its low or part of a combo or something).

I found that the best way to nail the wrestler is simply to A)wait for him to come to you. Before they try to take you down they do a "level change", if you practice you can usually get them in the middle of their takedown with either a knee or uppercut B) keep it at a distance, use the jab constantly
C) LEARN TO WRESTLE! lol

(I found this spraypainted in the changeroom of the ICS academy)

GOOD SPRAWL+STRONG STRIKES/KNEE ATTACKS=DEAD WRESTLER

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Chambering takes no more time than a plain kick, since the speed it adds pretty much cancels out for the extra time.

You can perform an effective kick against someone with no more than about foot of space between you, or less if you don't mind kicking low.

[Acekicken]

Elbows & Knees , Learn Submissons
& Save The Kick for him later

[Darzeka]

From most of what I've seen of wrestlers they can shoot in real quick,.. but they need to use a lead leg a long way in front of them and can't move it when they come in for the takedown.
So keep the distance, wait for the shoot then kick that leg on the knee - bye bye knee cap. Or alternately kick the head.

I haven't tried this yet as I haven't done any UFC training but to me it seems a sound approach, although rather permament solution to the problem.

For an attacking kick just try to remove his manuverability first - hurt his legs. If he can't walk he can't shoot - then go for the higher kicks. Don't forget to go for his feet - stomped feet hurt a ********.

[stump]

Sprawling is your best bet against someone who wants to take you to the floor. Keeping your kicks low is also a good bet. And learning how to wrestle is also important because if they're worth their salt you are going to the floor whether you like it or not.

[YODA]

Originally posted by stump
Sprawling is your best bet against someone who wants to take you to the floor. Keeping your kicks low is also a good bet. And learning how to wrestle is also important because if they're worth their salt you are going to the floor whether you like it or not.

Couldn't agree more. :D

[Bon]

I just tried this last night (except there were no kicks).

I had the gloves on, and I was trying to hit guys as they were trying to take me down. I had about 5 guys take me down 2 times each, in the space of no more than 3-4 minutes.

It was much harder than I thought, even when I knew they were trying to take me down. I think the key is a big hit if you can pull it off, side steps, a big kick if they fall short and land on their face during the shoot, and being prepared to go to the ground. :D

[Tosh]

Originally posted by STASH
Personally I think you get more power out of a kick when you chamber it first but I would rather sacrifice power then get taken down, any thoughts?

Sorry if being a fool but please explain 'chambering'.

The way I understand chambering of the leg there is no way it's going to have as much power then when you have both feet on the ground.

Maybe I'm just being dumb?? Please correct! :)

[TkdWarrior]

hey tosh the way we get our knees up parallel to ground in tholojogki or abchabuski...is called chambering
frankly speaking i didn't knew this too before coming to MAP :)
we TKDist r too ignorant dude..something has to be done :D
ignorant is not a bliss...
-TkdWarrior-

[Tosh]

No, no that is what I thought chambering is but i just had no idea how this could be more powerful than a kick using both feet grounded to start.

Plus why would I want to make it easier for a wrestler to take me to the ground by raising me leg ....

oh no I see...... like this....

[YODA]

LOL!

Crane Technique - No can defense :D

[Tosh]

Always made me laugh that the referee looks like the hardest guy in the ring! :D :D

He looks like he wouldn't take any c**p :woo:

[TkdWarrior]

lol...u r rite tosh spice...
-TkdWarrior-

[Joe karate]

the way i see it...use your hands and attack his face. Uppercuts, knifehands, fistwork in general. I may not be a great wrestler but one none the less, and it is instinctive for us to keep our hands low in order to protect our legs from a takedown. This leaves the face wide open! So hit with a stunner shot such as to the ears or eyes and then let him have it. Oh and if his hands are up high to protect his face, then he's just begging to be taken down himself(and incidentally a bad wrestler so you have nothing to worry about anyway!)

[johndoch]

Is it possible to chamber against a good wrestler?

I would say yes. You must "believe" your technique will work if you doubt it dont use it. You could use the chamber as a feint (especially if your more of a striker than a grappler) to try and stop your opponent getting set to take you down. Follow feints with your hands. Also feint with your hands and kick low.

I would tend to go for the front as a stop kick against the grappler who shoots in assuming you've got the range. But at the end of the day I would tend to use my hands rather than kicks.

[Joe karate]

Also, i just thought of this, slap him around in the face. Most guys i wrestle just grab your arm and tie up with it. It may only be a split second before they shoot now but for that second their hands are up at shoulder level with yours...fire a kick into the crotch or a knee into the stomach(maybe knee the head as he shoots to your legs?)

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Joe karate
Oh and if his hands are up high to protect his face, then he's just begging to be taken down himself(and incidentally a bad wrestler so you have nothing to worry about anyway!)

No chance in hell am I going to ground with someone who has more experience (even if poor).

Anyway I would have thought a wrestler would have his hands up near the head and crouching as they prepare for the shoot?? But I haven't a scooby-doo. I'm sure one of the guys will clear that up???

[Tosh]

Originally posted by johndoch
Is it possible to chamber against a good wrestler?



Still don't know why anyone would want too?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Anyway I would have thought a wrestler would have his hands up near the head and crouching as they prepare for the shoot?? But I haven't a scooby-doo. I'm sure one of the guys will clear that up???

Assuming that you can get a kick off then it doesn't really matter where his hands are. A good kick will crush a guard very nicely, and still dump plenty of impact into the target. Your only worry is if they deflect instead.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Assuming that you can get a kick off then it doesn't really matter where his hands are.

Unless there are already wrapped around your waist and you are flying through the air :D :D

[Joe karate]

well tosh, before getting close to the opponent, in a match, we keep our hands low to protect the legs. After closing the distance we can "tie up". This is when we try and gain control to set up a shot. Positions include grabbing the collar and a bicep or double bicep grabs. At this point his legs are vulnerable to being kicked. However it is natural for a wrestler. As he shoots in to the legs one hand will drop to waist level and the other hand will throw the opponents arm "away" to prevent counter. The hand he has dropped to his waist is now committed to the shot and cannot protect much of anything now, it is an offensive weapon only. For that brief moment his face is vulnerable and incidentally next to your arms, so hit him!

Remember a wrestler prefers his hands low so as to protect his legs and be closer to his opponents legs. He wants your hands high and his low. So do you. You can hit his unprotected face before he can get close enough to shoot.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Unless there are already wrapped around your waist and you are flying through the air

In which case you haven't got a kick off of course, then again if you're flying through the air with his arms around your waist you've got nice purchase for a knee strike or dropping elbow.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by ckdstudent

In which case you haven't got a kick off of course, then again if you're flying through the air with his arms around your waist you've got nice purchase for a knee strike or dropping elbow.


Knee strike??? If he is throwing you no purchase on ground for any power :(

Elbows yes but he's still thrown you to the ground which is his/her territory = "bad news" brown :D

I was saying if a wrestlers got a hold of you I'm sure he's accustomed to a few knocks :D so you are in deep doo-doo if you have no wrestling/grappling experience :eek:

I'm just sure if it is wrestler v striker. wrestler would keep hands around shoulder level at least to cover as he shoots in???

I dunno??? Having never fought a"wrestler" I wouldn't know.... can any of the "mixed" guys throw 10p in here

P.s. Still no-ones given me a good reason to chamber yet! :p

[TkdWarrior]

if u r grabbed by waist by wrestlers knee strikes will like giving him derest(well u r main course :D :P), if somehow u r grabbed then ur first concern should be not letting urself dragged ie...getting ur stance fixed n rooted by expanding ur back leg
but it will over sooner or later so better give him knee strike(been there done that n he finished me)
if u(striker) r sparring with wrestler(assuming not fighting)from my point of view u should never let ur waist grabbed if it's then u'll be over... because it's his territory not urs then his muscles power is more than ur's, added to his techniques means u r screwed up by all means...
so maintaining distance is very important. then comes sprawling(i think it's a good option but not the ultimate one) every wrestler has the ability to come like thundring train from a distance if he's not doing that then probably he's manuveuring into his distance of fighting(so again distance comes)
third thing is that if u r not fighting(ie sparring) u cannot land a good powerfull kick or punch for finishers(not hurting ur oppnt) so again means u r dead meat...
but it's fun all the time...
btw i m born in wrestlers family..
-TkdWarrior-

[TkdWarrior]

ah remember they hav more techniques than shooting :D :p
-TkdWarrior-

[Tosh]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior
ah remember they hav more techniques than shooting :D :p
-TkdWarrior-

:D Yeah there's the dreaded snap-mare too, not for getting the "Peoples elbow"!!! :D

I'm kidding, i'm kidding before anyone goes off on a rant :D

C'mon I've been dying to say that :Angel:

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Knee strike??? If he is throwing you no purchase on ground for any power

Who cares about on the ground? If his arms are around your waist his head and chest are low, grab onto his shoulders and bring your knee up, plenty of purchase in your arms.


Elbows yes but he's still thrown you to the ground which is his/her territory = "bad news" brown

Doesn't matter, place the elbow right and its unlikely he'll be walking again. Besides if you do it right then dropping for the elbow also involves spreading into a wider stance with your main point of balance set against his.


I was saying if a wrestlers got a hold of you I'm sure he's accustomed to a few knocks so you are in deep doo-doo if you have no wrestling/grappling experience

If they can take one of my knee strikes straight to the face or an elbow dropped onto the spine I'm dead anyway.


P.s. Still no-ones given me a good reason to chamber yet!

Because without the chamber you may as well just be slapping them with a wet haddock, chamber is where all your power comes from.


if somehow u r grabbed then ur first concern should be not letting urself dragged ie...getting ur stance fixed n rooted by expanding ur back leg

Neat trick, I've never learnt to expand my back leg. My father expands if he's stung by a bee though. Does that count?


if u(striker) r sparring with wrestler(assuming not fighting)from my point of view u should never let ur waist grabbed if it's then u'll be over

Yep, I'll agree with this. Unless you can actually take him out before he shoots in, or as he moves in then your finished, unless of course you're stronger than him. However everyone assumes that a wrestler can automatically move in without the other person dodging away, or hitting them and dodging. I'm not saying they can't, its just not the foregone conclusion so many people say it is.


so maintaining distance is very important. then comes sprawling(i think it's a good option but not the ultimate one) every wrestler has the ability to come like thundring train from a distance if he's not doing that then probably he's manuveuring into his distance of fighting(so again distance comes)

At the UK MEET there was a nice class on striker's counters to wrestlers, some really nasty stuff in there.


third thing is that if u r not fighting(ie sparring) u cannot land a good powerfull kick or punch for finishers(not hurting ur oppnt) so again means u r dead meat...

I'm not quite sure what you mean here, but there's no reason that you can't land a powerful kick or punch. I don't quite see what you're saying. Care to elaborate?


ah remember they hav more techniques than shooting

Yep, and strikers have more techniques than just punch and kick.

[pgm316]

What does chamber mean exactly? I probably do it, I'm just not sure of the term.

And whats wrong with the peoples elbow? :D

[TkdWarrior]

<I'm not quite sure what you mean here, but there's no reason that you can't land a powerful kick or punch. I don't quite see what you're saying. Care to elaborate?>
hi ckd i hav spent time with traditional Indian wrestlers... hav seen their body conditioning...
so normally punch n kicks r not much of help against them unless u kick with power to break bones... so in sparring u can't hurt ur oppnt..from wat i hav seen u cannot stop good wrestler without beat the heck out of it...
n i missed joe karate's comments about slapping...IMO it's not good too...they hav very good hand maneuvrings...it's hard... but if u r in hand to hand distance then i think u r lessening ur chances of win...
fast kicking(lightening speed :D) with not full power hitting the areas like thigh/knee which disables them for a moment can help u...if u r not fast they'll easily grab ur limbs n make u tap out(in case of fighting disabling them)
i m not putting any style down but somehow we try to underrate the wrestling guys, i hav seen it working in streets n against multiple oppnts too(So TMA guys(including me) ur multiple street excuses wont' work :D ;)) i hav heard mostly strikers talking about pressure point fighting of breaking wrestlers limbs etc etc(like i was sayin) but lemme tell u it's easy to sound but if u hav seen wrestlers fight u'll change ur ideas...they basically knows the art of bone dislocating(at least here in India) n resetting techniques(i know because one of old wrestlers reset my left leg when i got into accident n alopathy failed to help me they asked about surgury n that guy made me walk in 10 days, cool eh..?)
-TkdWarrior-

[pgm316]

Your right TKD, we shouldn't underestimate the grapplers!

[johndoch]

Chamber " Where you lift your knee before the Kick". someone will probably elaborate.

[TkdWarrior]

there's pic's of Melanie in gallery u should look, my descriptions r not that good :) i don't expect them to be...English is not my first language...
-TkdWarrior-

[pgm316]

I know what you mean now, is it just on the striaght kick, or is it still called chambering when you lift you knee for the roundhouse kick?

[TkdWarrior]

i think it's the lift that is called with every kick...
i m not experts with terms that's why i let the expert(CKD;)) explain this part ...
ok jimmy here u go now..
-TkdWarrior-

[Tosh]

Okay here is why I continually asked what is "chambering" .........

For me "chambering" of the leg is how 99% of all striking kicks if you want any power.......(checking and blocks not included)

this is the point i was trying to highlight :D .......(sneaky man!)

Go back to johndocs post

You must "believe" your technique will work if you doubt it dont use it.

and ckdstudents

Because without the chamber you may as well just be slapping them with a wet haddock

(Yes Jimmy I finally agree with you :D)

Why would you STRIKE without full power??? Why are you even thinking of chambering or not??

Getting the kick through or not telegraphing the kick is a different story - completely different

If your not going to STRIKE with full power i.e. No "chamber", "prep" whatever you want to call it why bother?? Especially if it's a gamble like that with a wrestler......

so what was the point of that exercise?????

to change the thread to........

wait for it.................. :eek:

Is it sensible to kick a wrestler?? :D :D :D :D :D

[TkdWarrior]

tosh with both feet on ground u mostly uses leg momentum
but with chambering u use ur hip n momentum both...
check this out
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=15
-TkdWarrior-

[TkdWarrior]

why edited dude??
-TkdWarrior-

[johndoch]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ckdstudent

Because without the chamber you may as well just be slapping them with a wet haddock, chamber is where all your power comes from.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmm, I dont know about this.

JKD principles state that you should kick in a direct line to the target therefore minimising the chamber (telegraph).

What do you guys think?

[pgm316]

Sounds liek you know the answer Tosh :p

[TkdWarrior]

JKD principles state that you should kick in a direct line to the target therefore minimising the chamber
yup it doesn't matter when u idolize Bruce lee :D :p u kick too fast for ur oppnt ;)
seriously i hate to telegraph
-TkdWarrior-

[Tosh]

See edited post above

P.s. I still don't agree with your knees in mid-air theory :)

[Tosh]

Originally posted by johndoch
quote:
JKD principles state that you should kick in a direct line to the target therefore minimising the chamber (telegraph).


To be fair this is going to hit the target first.

Although my fellow TKD (and CKD?) brother no doubt will want to finish this conflict early to avoid it doing to the ground.

It is after all about situation using the right tool for the right job. :)

[TkdWarrior]

lol tosh...i had my doubts over ur statement :D
<Although my fellow TKD (and CKD?) brother no doubt will want to finish this conflict early to avoid it doing to the ground.>
if u could guess this by my 2 biiiiiiigggggg e posts then i gotta beat u up :mad:
yes dudeand frankly try once kickin against wrestlers
u'll see all my words in front of ur eyes :D cuz i did myself too :) :p

<P.s. I still don't agree with your knees in mid-air theory >
yup dude yup i myself don't agree with the kind of explanation i give :p frankly speaking i didn't even get ur explanation of ur chambering thingie :D

<Is it sensible to kick a wrestler?? >
no i think it's better to shoot him :D
-TkdWarrior-

[Tosh]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior

no i think it's better to shoot him :D
-TkdWarrior-

Wrestling "shoot"??? :D :D :D

I know I know anyway ...

"IT DOESN'T MATTER....<insert what it doesn't matter to do here>"
:D

[stump]

<<<Because without the chamber you may as well just be slapping them with a wet haddock, chamber is where all your power comes from.>>>

Have to take you up on this one. Low thai kicks aren't chambered...I defy you to laugh one of those off!!!!

[YODA]

Originally posted by YODA
Kicking in general is not a good idea against a good wrestler - unless he's almost out of it as in Pete Williams Vs Mark Coleman. (Ouch!)

The key to beating a good wrestler standing is footwork, fast hands, and an extremely good knowledge of HIS game! (Although an Uzi 9mm may help LOL!)


Well - after reading so many varying opinions I STILL hold view above.

Many of the comments made show how few people have ANY idea of how a grappler operates, especially a grappler who's also has a good striking game too.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by tosh_spice

I dunno??? Having never fought a"wrestler" I wouldn't know.... can any of the "mixed" guys throw 10p in here


After doing TKD for 6 years I've found only now are the pieces falling into place... thats why i'm trying to branch out now.

I'm sure if I fought a wrestler now it would be not be pretty......

...... for me I mean.

It's funny how it's what you "think" you know eventually get's you in trouble :(

[johndoch]

Quote : YODA

"The key to beating a good wrestler standing is footwork, fast hands, and an extremely good knowledge of HIS game! (Although an Uzi 9mm may help LOL!)"

I agree but the forum question was - is it possible to chamber against a wrestler/grappler. Of course what YODA is saying is spot on and but to answer the question simply.

Yes it is possible but why use such a risky technique?.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

hi ckd i hav spent time with traditional Indian wrestlers... hav seen their body conditioning...

Sorry, I thought we were talking about equivalent grapplers and strikers. Naturally a tougher grappler'll have an advantage, and so will a stronger striker.


fast kicking(lightening speed ) with not full power hitting the areas like thigh/knee which disables them for a moment can help u

Ignoring a light strike to the thigh or knee isn't a problem (unless you count pressure points which is a different debate), ignoring a more powerful is.


if u r not fast they'll easily grab ur limbs n make u tap out

Wait, what's this idea that you can't have power and speed? I know that most of the martial arts I've looked at do techniques designed to be faster as they're more powerful, and vice versa, so in fact a weaker technique would surely be slower?


so normally punch n kicks r not much of help against them unless u kick with power to break bones...

Hate to call this one up, but can you break a board? Yep, good. Can you break one of those black plastic boards? Good. Then you can break a bone if you can hit it.


i m not putting any style down but somehow we try to underrate the wrestling guys, i hav seen it working in streets n against multiple oppnts too

I agree with you on that, although the under-rating does work both ways.


but lemme tell u it's easy to sound but if u hav seen wrestlers fight u'll change ur ideas

Seen them fight, and have to say all it did was reinforce my idea that the best way to deal with them is to hit them hard and fast before they can grab you.


JKD principles state that you should kick in a direct line to the target therefore minimising the chamber (telegraph).


Chamber and telegraph are not the same thing. I doubt there's anyone who'll say that the best, fastest and most powerful way to kick is to keep your leg straight thoughout (if there is then I'd like to talk and see why). Chamber can be as simply as keeping the knee bent and then throwing the lower leg out. The other thing is chamber actually adds power and speed, the better the chamber the better the kick, so the minimal telegraphing you give is cancelled out by the increase in speed.


To be fair this is going to hit the target first.

If it doesn't do any damage it doesn't matter how quickly it hits the target.


Have to take you up on this one. Low thai kicks aren't chambered...I defy you to laugh one of those off!!!!

Yes they are. They may not call it chamber, but the kicks are chambered.


Many of the comments made show how few people have ANY idea of how a grappler operates, especially a grappler who's also has a good striking game too.

I was under the impression we were discussing pure strikers and pure grapplers. If the grappler has a good striking game then its only fair to say that the striker has a reasonable grappling game.

Yes, taking someone on in unfamiliar territory is a bad idea. However if you don't know the territory (as our theoretical pure striker doesn't) then its best to stick with the tools which you do know and use them.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Hate to call this one up, but can you break a board? Yep, good. Can you break one of those black plastic boards? Good. Then you can break a bone if you can hit it.

Nope, breaking a board is a test of YOUR power/accuaracy on a stationary object. Don't confuse what breaking is a test of! That's what gets breaking/destruction a bad name. A Moving target has:

1) Nothing bracing it - so in effect it's an air-break
2) A mind of its own to avoid you
3) Ability to block/dodge/cushion/spin-off etc

Breaking is a test of maximum power & accuaracy in certain -set conditions. It does not mean you can break the bone of a moving opponent!


Chamber and telegraph are not the same thing. I doubt there's anyone who'll say that the best, fastest and most powerful way to kick is to keep your leg straight

LOL! Telegraph for me means the opponent can see the technique coming! Not making your leg as straight as one :D


If it doesn't do any damage it doesn't matter how quickly it hits the target.


Why not?? Why can't you use a low power techinque to a vital spot. Sometimes you do not need full power. I'm sure the JKD/KF boys have loads of little kicks/strikes where all you need is is to hit the target with some reasonable force. It might just be a set up for something else again little experience just what I thought??

I promise never to use this many qoutes again.... i'm becoming a quote monster like............ :D

[YODA]

Yes they are. They may not call it chamber, but the kicks are chambered.

No - they are not.

From someone who, up to last week, thought a Thai shin kick was a kick TO the shin that's pretty dogmatic.

[Tosh]

Stop it Jimmy!!! Methinks you might lose this one :)

[TkdWarrior]

<Sorry, I thought we were talking about equivalent grapplers and strikers. >
the problem for striker is that grapplers tends to learn their style mostly against oppnts on ground, not practicing it in air...

<Well - after reading so many varying opinions I STILL hold view above.>
i agree with footwork,handwork knowing of grappling game...
Yoda My Tkd instructor can easily take on good grapplers but i just wonder how many ppl can generate power n speed like him...
i m talking about me...i can generate power close(well close u can say) to him but speed i hav dropped couple of miles per hour :D n more over he hav 20 yrs expereince with him ...
an expereince person hav more chance from my point of view(if he's not that well versed with grappling)i still value experience above..
-TkdWarrior-

[TkdWarrior]

ok i m up now...hav a shower...now feel good about myself :D
<Telegraph for me means the opponent can see the technique coming! >
yup it doens't matter if u do chamber or not...the idea is before ur oppnt see u should KO'ed him...
Tosh_spice putted it very well about breaking bones, so i won't add anything... *thumbs up*
PS: tosh how many boards u had broken? me none..but bones quite a few time :D(once before taking ma once after that) so according to u I M GOOD...thnx for puffin up my ego :D ;)

<After doing TKD for 6 years I've found only now are the pieces falling into place... thats why i'm trying to branch out now.>
i dont' think it has been fallen...u just forgot to glue it together ;)

doing TKD for 4 yrs MT for 2.5+ yrs i think i can take on grappler may i loose but wouldn't look as foolish as they claim :D

<thought a Thai shin kick was a kick TO the shin that's pretty dogmatic.>
lol ...that would be cool to know...then he should be shown the dogbrother's shin kick video :D ;)

IMHO i still think from Expereince View Strikers(us) don't do hard sparring(or lots of)..if u learn thru sparring(yup u need good tuition for techniques too) then u hav much better chance...my MT training was very much live sparring...i still vouch for my effectivenss due to MT...TKD gave me lots of option to add on...
-TkdWarrior-

[Tosh]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior

PS: tosh how many boards u had broken?


I'll put my reponse in the destruction power testing thread I started to avoid crossed threads!

[stump]

quote: stump said.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have to take you up on this one. Low thai kicks aren't chambered...I defy you to laugh one of those off!!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ckdstudent said....
<<<Yes they are. They may not call it chamber, but the kicks are chambered.>>>>


So how do you define a chamber? Do you mean just lifting your leg? Cos it's kind of hard to kick without doing that!!! Please tell me what you would call a chamber, as applied to a thai roundhouse kick to the leg?

[pgm316]

If kicking is a bad idea against a grappler, what is a good idea?

Having good knowledge of their game is one thing, if you don't have that, what do you do? I thought we're assuming their grappling skills are much better than your own, or else its just another mixed MA debate.

I'd have thought the use of good kicks would keep them out of grappling range better than punches. They'd have to be low kicks to their legs or not much higher, avoiding the kick being caught. I would try and avoid chambering quite a lot for this reason. Although its likely the wrestler won't deal well with strikes, would a traditional wrestler be prepared for knees to the head when they try to take you down?

[TkdWarrior]

pgm u answered ur question urself...
IMHO i hav found knee to head against traditional wrestlers a very bad idea(got from my expereince, remeber i was MT guy) unless he is just spinning from ur super powerful kicks :D
against grapplers "distance is ur true freind"

Stump is rite thai kicks arn't chambered(from my definition of chambering :D) as opposed to chambered kicks thai kicks r normally piercing sort of in my opinion...
-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

Hmm....I gotta few tips to add......please don't blame me if if u get into trouble using my tips, I am not responsible for any broken boned :D

Also if u think I am wrong then correct me

Knowing how to grapple is very useful

Kicking to his torso or face is a bad idea, he can easily grab ur leg and take you down

Kicking low is a good idea since it is harder for the wrestler to grab it.

If you get taken down to the ground then tucking ur chin may be a good idea making it harder for ur opponent to strangle you.

I dunno about this but I read someplace that going berserk is also the way to go if you get taken down to the ground

And last but the best defence

RUN since most wrestlers are fat n slow :D :D :D

|Cain|

[stump]

I don't think it's that kicks are a bad idea...it's more that stupid kicks are a bad idea!!! You throw anything higher than leg level I'm sure the wrestler will stop to thank you before taking your leg and dumping your butt on the ground. Strong, well timed strikes are the way to go.

You may still go down, but you'll go down with them feeling painful, not enough to disable them probably...but enough to sap their strength a bit. THe knee to the head is the way to go....if you can land it. It's harder than you'd think. i pressure tested this a while ago and found it very hard to land decent shots on even a mediocre grappler

[TkdWarrior]

it's good that u added disclaimer before ur actual post :D
there r some probs...
first knowing grappling is good but if u r striker that's the last thing u want to do cuz it's his heaven...
second kicking face/torso can be considered(hope u can shoot one like those done by Bruce lee)
third kicking low is good but remember that from this range he can make u think again :)..."distance is ur freind"
fourth tucking ur chin is good but exposing the back of neck if he's fighitng u he might use that area..
fifth n sixth ideas can be considered :D
-TkdWarrior-

[TkdWarrior]

<. i pressure tested this a while ago and found it very hard to land decent shots on even a mediocre grappler>
this is soooooooo very true...
-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

Ok guys I got one more scenario - wat if a wrestler has u facedown on the floor? It scares me to think of that....

|Cain|

[Tosh]

Hey!!

Your not getting kinkey on us are you?? :D

Honestly, I don't know here I would fail methinks... see other thread other seeking failure in JKD section

[Cain]

No I am just wondering if anyone got any good ideas for this one...

|Cain|

[johndoch]

Cain

re: facedown

Is this based on competion or street?

[Cain]

both

|Cain|

[stump]

<<<Ok guys I got one more scenario - wat if a wrestler has u facedown on the floor?>>>


MOVE!!!!!

WHat you're describing is the worst place to be in more or less. throwing Elbows may help if you're good and lucky. One way out I was told is to raise yourself up slightly to create distance between your body and his, then twist so as you're back goes to the ground. Maybe Yoda could fill us in on some better counters to this unhappy position :)

[johndoch]

Quote Cain:
"Ok guys I got one more scenario - wat if a wrestler has u facedown on the floor? It scares me to think of that...."

Good Question Cain

Street: your in trouble??? expect a big hit somewhere from your head to anywhere on your spine. Or you might get your hair grabbed and get your head pounded into the ground. your opponent might get up and jump on your head. You may be locked anywhere and not see it coming. he may just sit on u and punch away. I could go on.

I guess on the street you would have not much of a chance if you got into a facedown position in the first place.

Competition: Learn your counters to grappling moves.

[YODA]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
Ok guys I got one more scenario - wat if a wrestler has u facedown on the floor? It scares me to think of that....

|Cain|

Say loudly - "Please don't hurt me, Please don't hurt me"

[Cain]

Any other ideas other than phychological? I am sure if I say that then he will definitely hurt me more. :(

|Cain|

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Well, you're in the right position for prayer at least.

Alternatively just try and keep your limbs moving, at least make the job of pulling them off a little bit harder.

[YODA]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Well, you're in the right position for prayer at least.

Alternatively just try and keep your limbs moving, at least make the job of pulling them off a little bit harder.

That would make it easier.

You should tuck them in - especially keep your elbows pinned to your sides. Work yourself up to your knees. Grab hold & try to get your knees under your hips under him. Then use either a low single, ankle pick, knee block etc - but that would mean you knew his game - which would mean you wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

[Cain]

Thanx for the tips guys, and no Yoda I don't know his game that's why I asked the question ;) I gotta try these sometime.......we don't regularly spar in grappling u know, there are disadvantages to my art also.... I will just hv to pressure test that unofficially with my friend

|Cain|

[YODA]

Hi Cain

Why not seek out a Wrestling club and actually DO it rather than try out with a friend?

You have Wrestling in India? Right?

[Cain]

Yep we hv wrestling.....but do you think it's a good idea rite now since I hv only one year experience.....

|Cain|

[Tosh]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
Yep we hv wrestling.....but do you think it's a good idea rite now since I hv only one year experience.....

|Cain|

"If not now, when?"

Carpe Diem my friend!!!

That wrestling mugger is waiting for you outside tonight!!!

:woo:

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Carpe jugulum mate. Much more fun.

[Tosh]

Ahhh "Go for the throat" :D

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Hmm, what else do we have.

Carpe oculum's nice.

Anyway, I'll stop derailing the thread now.

[Cain]

Hmm.....but I feel that I think I should get more of a solid base in the art I am learning, by that time I will just stick to my running theory :D

|Cain|

[TkdWarrior]

cain wrestling is totally different ball game...go to any local akakhra n u'll hav lots of fun...
only to cain :
lekin beta langot pahan ke karna padega :D :p
-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior
only to cain :
lekin beta langot pahan ke karna padega :D :p
-TkdWarrior-

AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

Mere size ka langot milega ki nahi mujhe bata nahin kyonki mere kammar ke size se woh gir jayega :D :D

|Cain|

[TkdWarrior]

lol nop it comes in all sizes :D ;)
to cain only:
agar gira tooooo....chaddi pahna allow nahi karte pahalwan :D shame shame :p
-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

LOL!!!!

Oh brother somehow I hv the feeling I am going to hv a really bad time wrestling :D

|Cain|

[TkdWarrior]

;) :D
LoL
-TkdWarrior-

[AllOutWar]

QUOTE
"I would rather sacrifice power then get taken down, any thoughts?"

That is 110% correct it would be better to fire off 5 or 6 strikes than 1or 2 slower strikes that would only be a slight percentage stronger. When in actulity those 2 slower strikes may not connect and even if they did would not do as much damage as the 5 or 6.
In most cases not all before somone bites my head off, a good wrestler is only that 1 dimensional! they just want to ground and pound knowing that you need to throw them off their game. You really didn't need to ask any questions you got it right with a good sprawl knees and strikes = a dead wrestler.In a scenario where you do go to the ground a stong guard will increase your chance of survival. I don't see BJJ as a realistic way to defend yourself on the steets but in comp. or fight club as i've read you mentioned it is exellent. Before a BJJ master gets all worked up i say that cuz most people aren't gonna stand there while you rip someones arm off. they will put there boots to your head! Waiting for a wretler to shoot and cathing them with a knee is curtains. Maybe they'll think twice about shooting ever again

[Sonshu]

Look at Igor Vovchenchin

Nick Nutter - mullered every time
Top Gracie Jujitsu guys - mullered every time

He covers the shoot with a good sprawl and capitalises on his position.

He is I feel the best allround fighter as he has had so many MMA fights and an outstanding track record.

Check this out

http://www.vovchanchyn.kharkov-ua.com/career/career.htm

He has been a bit of the boil and a long standing injury but he is a world class fighter with a record that backs it up!

SONSHU

[jejanim]

i say...if you arent quick nuff to kick him b 4 he engages you, take a vale tudo approach and go to the ground. submission is possible. wrestlers are good on the ground but you know what to expect..*ground n pound*. so..maybe set up for a triangle or use those flailing arms and twist him into a kamura.

jeja

[Kwan Jang]

-Going back to the original topic; while chambering a kick may not be my first choice against a good wrestler, I have made it work. Stick and move is the name of the game or more precisely, set point control and angles of attack/clock principle. For those not familiar w/ this, think matador. Don't let your opponent set and step back at angles((4 or 8 o'clock) and fire from a high chamber. As far as a wrestler having you face down, man, you really messed up to find yourself here. There is a way out, however. Reach back and horsebite the leg "juntion box'(nerve center used in CDT) to leverage them off you and switch to mount on top of them while maintaining hold on leg. When I first encountered this, I was amazed at how simple it was and how well it hurt...er, worked.

[hanakuso]

Originally posted by Kwan Jang
-As far as a wrestler having you face down, man, you really messed up to find yourself here. There is a way out, however. Reach back and


and enjoy your broken arm

[Ad McG]

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLES ELBOW??????

:Angel:

[hedgehogey]

Chambering your kicks against a wrestler? I highly doubt it.

Learn to kick UNCHAMBERED. Much more fast and powerful.


Elbows to stop a shoot? Pretty much a non option, especially if you use those stiff, closed fist karate elbows. If he shoots he is BELOW the range of your elbows. You MUST sprawl or level change first. Elbows are best done from a clinch.

[aml01_ph]

Very good kickers chamber their legs. You can hardlysee it though.

[hedgehogey]

Diesel noi...vanderlei silva...maurice smith...crocop...all very good kickers who do NOT chamber their kicks.

[matreyia]

Chambering your kicks against a wrestler? I highly doubt it.

Learn to kick UNCHAMBERED. Much more fast and powerful.


Elbows to stop a shoot? Pretty much a non option, especially if you use those stiff, closed fist karate elbows. If he shoots he is BELOW the range of your elbows. You MUST sprawl or level change first. Elbows are best done from a clinch.

You are correct in this observation.

[Guy Mendiola]

Diesel noi...vanderlei silva...maurice smith...crocop...all very good kickers who do NOT chamber their kicks.That's traditional Muay Thai style like the Muay Thai Roundhouse with no chambering but they snap it back.

[matreyia]

Chambering your kicks against a wrestler? I highly doubt it.

Learn to kick UNCHAMBERED. Much more fast and powerful.


Elbows to stop a shoot? Pretty much a non option, especially if you use those stiff, closed fist karate elbows. If he shoots he is BELOW the range of your elbows. You MUST sprawl or level change first. Elbows are best done from a clinch.

OOps, didn't mean to confuse you since you are the person that had that long discussion about takedowns with me. In this post, I mean that I agree with your observation that one should learn to kick unchambered because of it's speed advantages.

And it is very difficult to stop a takedown with elbows because of the attack against your center of gravity, but still not impossible.

Now as long as we are just talking about elbows, I can see your point. But once we start talking about palms, or fists, that's different can of worms. At that, I will stop writing because I don't want to repeat our last discussion. Best wishes.

Viet

[NorwoodBloke]

Someone suggested attacking the junction box used in CDT.

When I was at school CDT stood for "craft, design, technology".

Meaning woodwork class!

Which means if you attack that junction box the wrestler will be unable to finish his spice rack!

[aml01_ph]

Diesel noi...vanderlei silva...maurice smith...crocop...all very good kickers who do NOT chamber their kicks.

They do. If you watch closely you would see that when they lift their thighs, the lower leg is automatically bent because it is relaxed. They use hip power for the drive and the snap at the knee for follow-through.

If there was actually no chambering the leg would be totally straight. It may have some force, but the there would be power loss since the leg is naturally tensed.

[hedgehogey]

Semantically you could say they do "chamber" but they sure as hell don't chamber the way tkd guys chamber.

[Tosh]

Semantically you could say they do "chamber" but they sure as hell don't chamber the way tkd guys chamber.

Of course I assume you've competed at TKD's (Both ITF and WTF) highest level to corroborate this of course.

Or are you going with what you've seen on TV?

I've never seen, and this is only ridiculous ;) semi contact sparring, anybody "chambering" a kick during a sparring match. We may not clinch but if can read a kick early I'm closing the distance and getting stuck in with the hands.

This thread is old, dead and the same arguments are being re-hashed by all of you.

Anybody got something new & interesting to say? :confused:

[hedgehogey]

I won a state point sparring championship with a style that uses snapping kicks. That says nothing about their effectiveness.

[aml01_ph]

Semantically you could say they do "chamber" but they sure as hell don't chamber the way tkd guys chamber.

Funny, this is how TKD people here are taught to ultimately kick. Karate people are also taught the same way.

Why are you mentioning semantics to me. What I am describing here is a valid execution of technique. It works and any who has seen UFC or K-1 has seen it work.

Chambering for a kick is defined as bending the leg to "load up" on force.

[Tosh]

I won a state point sparring championship with a style that uses snapping kicks. That says nothing about their effectiveness.

Completly right, it didn't answer the question either.

Do all TKD'ers chamber there kicks? Sorry chief I disagree.

[hedgehogey]

Will somebody find that roundhouse kick comparison page please?

[Tosh]

Still not my experience. You chamber you get shut down & blitzed or counter kicked.

Things change, roll with the new, then again it's my experience, my opinion.

We could argue back in forth, we're both entrenched.... *meh* ;) :D

[aml01_ph]

Still not my experience. You chamber you get shut down & blitzed or counter kicked.

Things change, roll with the new, then again it's my experience, my opinion.

We could argue back in forth, we're both entrenched.... *meh* ;) :D

Pat Miletich won his share of fights with this "unchambered" kicking technique.

[Adam]

For hedgehogey: http://www.kyokushinmail.com/koya/KickInstruction.htm

Was this what you were looking for?

[Tosh]

Pat Miletich won his share of fights with this "unchambered" kicking technique.

Excuse my ignorance but I didn't think Mr Miletich was a TKD'er? :confused:


EDIT From above link

"The following is the typical three steps on executing the roundhouse kick in different styles of Martial Arts, with the emphasis and the merit of each. It is only a generalization, to show that there are different ways of executing a kick for different purposes, and it is not to mean that the specified styles only execute the ways as are written. "

comments?

[hedgehogey]

For hedgehogey: http://www.kyokushinmail.com/koya/KickInstruction.htm

Was this what you were looking for?

Yes, thanks.

[aml01_ph]

Excuse my ignorance but I didn't think Mr Miletich was a TKD'er? :confused:

Personally, I don't know. But the topic here is if you can chamber against a good wrestler.

Good link BTW Adam.

[Tosh]

Personally, I don't know. But the topic here is if you can chamber against a good wrestler.

Guess I was confused as to why you quoted me then. :D

[JurassicWarrior]

only if you close him off before he can do anything else. I've wrestled so I know it ain't easy.

[notquitedead]

Again I'm too lazy/don't have enough time to read the whole thread, so I'll just add my thoughts to the mix.

From most of what I've seen of wrestlers they can shoot in real quick,.. but they need to use a lead leg a long way in front of them and can't move it when they come in for the takedown.
So keep the distance, wait for the shoot then kick that leg on the knee - bye bye knee cap. Or alternately kick the head.

I haven't tried this yet as I haven't done any UFC training but to me it seems a sound approach, although rather permament solution to the problem.
A good shot is from when they are already really close, the level change is straight downward, not at angle. That leg is going to be BETWEEN your legs if they're going for a double, or outside of your lead leg if they are going for a single. That would be really hard to kick, as you would have to move backward while the wrestler is holding onto your leg(s). ;)

My advice: learn to wrestle. Get a good sprawl to defend against shots, but also learn to defend against other takedowns. Yes, there is more than just a shoot tackle. :p

My advice to anyone who wants to defend against grapplers is to learn to grapple. Grapplers defend againt eachother all the time, so if you do some grappling you will learn pretty quickly. Also, work on hand strikes, elbows, and knees after the sprawl.

[jdavies]

My advice to anyone who wants to defend against a wrestler/BJJ/shootfighting guy is to watch Mirko CroCop fight in pride. The guy has phenomenal takedown defence and awesome striking skills. He quite often makes wrestlers look stupid, (Mark Coleman,Heath Herring etc) before knocking them out and does the same thing against BJJ guys. So watch CroCop, get some inspiration then get enough grappling experience to defend the takedown so that you can employ your striking skills.

[Taliar]

On chambering, linear kicks need to be chambered to be used effectively and prevent them being easily jammed (side kick, front kick, teep, all use a bent knee to lift the leg into position otherwise they would be classed as rising kicks), circular kicks don't need a chamber in order to work though not many people will kick with a perfectly straight leg, and the degree of chamber is down to stylistic differences and leads to many interesting debates. Within TKD the point of the chamber is to produce a start to your kicks that looks the same no matter what kick you are delivering, however the time taken to kick should be governed by the time it takes to align your knee with the target, this should be the same for chambered and unchambered kicks, you just need to move you lower leg faster in a chambered kick.

I wouldn't advise trying to kick a wrestler as a defence against a shoot, footwork and a good sprawl will be much more effective. Nothing to stop you trying to kick him in the standup phase of the fight, just make sure that you have a good recovery from your kick so he can't come in behind it.

[Park XsX]

i think you should do side kicks and retreat and repeat. that would work if you had some space. if you have lil space you should exicute punches and make sure your not close (grabbing distance)

[The Decay of Meaning]

Remember a wrestler prefers his hands low so as to protect his legs and be closer to his opponents legs.

Not neccesarily, and I'm pretty sure many others wrestlers do not follow that one. In a fight situation, one might have the right arm on the chin, left hand slightly lower. I think you talked about hitting the crotch earlier, but that can be difficult if a wrestler position himself slightly sideways, so that he might slightly face his ribs against you. To have your hands low is like asking to get your face hit.

Right hand can catch incoming blows to head, striking, slapping, good for taking control of head, neck, arm etc. Also protect ribs.
A wrestler will probably be most scared of having a distance, or a guy going wacko with his arms and feet.

Besides, if a guy goes for the feet (something people rarely does in a fight), you might always hit him in the neck or back with the elbow, and if you fall backwards, one might catch the neck on the way down, tying the opponent up.

[Tribalweapon]

I would think it wouldn't be a good idea to kick a wrestler anyway but that is just my opinion.

[Splush]

Nice thread. Stuff I allready knew. But I was wondering if anyone had anymore detailed information for standup vs. wrestling.

My freinds got in a confertation with wrestlers from our neighboor school, the problem is there is a good chance the groups will run into each other again and I promised to have my mates back if anything happens.

[Apotheosis]

Heh, my friends are always getting me into trouble as well, luckily never with anyone who actually knew what they were doing.

As for standup vs wrestling, assuming you are the striker, your main goal should be to stay on your feet, if you get taken down and don't know enough ground fighting, your basically finished. A key point here would be that the wrestler would need to take you down, thus opening himself up to strikes, unless he has trained in take downs in a similar style to MMA. MMA fighters who focus in ground fighting, train with strikes in mind, while a pure wrestler likely wont. So when they come to take you down, go for a knee to the head,elbow strike, etc depending on their take down method.

[notquitedead]

You're not going to land a knee or elbow against someone trying to take you down without practice... your best bet would be to learn to sprawl.

[Apotheosis]

Note I included the fact that some of the methods I mentioned wouldnt be useful against some folks. I understand my chances of landing a knee to a trained MMA fighter would be difficult to say the least, but if its jsut a wrestler, he will likely go for his favorite take down, which he has developed by using on other grapplers, who were not allowed to strike.

I fully realize that this depends on your skill at striking versus theirs at defending, and at takedowns. Sprawling is a bit difficult without training, especially in a actual fight.

...and a tad off topic, the street is usually not concrete, but more commonly asphalt:)

[Splush]

Ya I'v been doin some research and have been reading your guys post, now to imply Im gonna get together with my wrestlin buddies and do so. I've done so before, just to experiment, but I didn't get specific with techniques and drills.

[Kwajman]

Sure you can chamber against a wrestler.....then he grabs you.....