Aiuchi Jiu Jitsu

[OBCT]

Anyone train in it ?
Going at start of next week and know nothing about it, except what SOKKLAB has told me so far.

I know its fairly a modern style, but i don't know if they favour striking, throws, locks, groundwork or weapons predominantely i.e
Is it more striking with less groundwork or more throws and locks, favouring initial strikes ? or what ?

If any one does train in then I would appreciate a rough outline, if not it doesn't matter I'll find out anyway when i go, just that half their website doesn't work http://www.aiuchi.org/ obviously not jedi then, oh well

[Aegis]

Aiuchi are an offshoot of the style of jujutsu I do, and it's good stuff. Lots of throwing and locking, some striking. Lots of weapons defences, good falling. Not that much groundwork, mostly what's required to defend yourself against someone kicking you while you're on the ground or enough to stand back up if someone is trying to hold you there.

While it's probably not exactly the same as what I do, I think it's a good style and you should be pleased with it.

[OBCT]

Thank you, I've asked lots of people, and all i wanted was a fairly simple yet concise answer like that.

[OBCT]

Oh, and what is your style of JJ called ?

[Aegis]

I'm part of the Jitsu Foundation style of jujutsu. They're found at http://www.jitsufoundation.org

Ooh, post 400 :)

[Joseki]

Hi OBTC do you train in this now??

If so do you know a Sensei Will Mcdonald if so say Dave says Hi as he used to be one of my old students YEARS ago I say him about a year ago just after he got his 1st Dan very good Instructor

[OBCT]

no, i went once and enjoyed it, but with being a student and working nights, without a set rota, its difficult to get to. having real trouble with this at the minute. aikido is 3 nights a week, at a push i could go to 1 night, but it would be on and off.
trying to persuade to set aside 1 night of the week i don't have to work on, ever. so i can stick at something.

[Jutte]

Aiuchi is a good, friendly not for profit, non-ego driven organisation. The style involves a lot of throwing, 50 odd different throws, plus arm, wrist, leg and neck locks. Lots of defenses against weapons (knife, broken bottle, baseball bat, chain etc). Not much atemi and not much emphasis on ground work. No sparing at all, other than occasional judo style groundwork.

There is a kind of aiki aspect to execution of tecniques, with more emphasis on using the opponents momentum (than in some styles of JJ). Its a good style if you want to learn good solid throwing, locking, ukemi etc, probably not so good if you want brutal no-nonsense streetfighting skills.

[OBCT]

looked more like judo (50%) mixed with aikido (40%) plus a few nasty bits and a tiny touch of karate (10%) in there.
I only saw them try knife work, with wooden knives, but i can see that weapons would feature heavily.

[Aegis]

They're like us, they practice against attacks by knife, cosh, bottle, broken bottle, chain, bokken, baseball bat and gun (though gun defences are of course fairly dubious at best). Pretty much anything else is treated the same as one of the other weapons and may appear at any time depending on the instructor's mood ;)

[Jutte]

looked more like judo (50%) mixed with aikido (40%)

Well both judo and aikido are derived from jujutsu, so it should resemble them.

[Aegis]

If I recall correctly the art in question (Shorinji kan jujutsu) was developed from Kodokan Judo (before it became almost entirely a sport), Shorinji Kempo and has some influence from aikijutsu. I don't know how much of each is there, but I suspect that most of it comes from the first two rather than the aikijutsu stuff.

[Jutte]

It is probably derived somewhat from pre-war judo. The oldest living root of this style held dan grades in several MAs (e.g. aikido, karate etc) but taught judo and jiujitsu. The shorinji kempo link is a bit of a red herring and probably had little or no influence on the style.

[Aegis]

Why does everyone immediately dismiss the shorinji kempo thing as a red herring? All the shorinji kempo students who have heard about this have gone up in arms about it not being true, as though their art has always been top secret and not for the uninitiated... It's in our style's history as having been taught to Miura, along with Judo and (possibly a little) aikijutsu before he taught Matthew Komp, who taught Brian Graham who introduced the art to the UK and still teaches today. 2 generations back isn't a great deal of time to lose information as important as the names of the parent arts of our style, so I'm inclined to believe what I hear for now.

Still, I'm always open to new sources, and if someone can give me a good reason to believe that there is no way shorinji kempo could have made it into this system, I'd be more than happy to listen.

As I've mentioned above, I believe the oldest living root of this art had training in judo and aiki/ju-jutsu in addition to however much training he had in shorinji kempo. At the time the style was created I don't think karate had even made much of an appearence outside Okinawa (perhaps shotokan, but we have nothing even remotely resembling what I've seen of that in our system). A lot of our locks are quite similar to those found in either aikido or shorinji kempo, so I guess either would be possible. However, as I stated earlier, I'll continue to accept the history of my art as taught until I have reason to think otherwise.

Cheers for the interest though :D

[Jutte]

The person in question is the German born, now Australian, Matt Komp (8th dan Jiu Jitsu, 6th dan Judo, 4th dan Karate + others). Contrary to what appears on many websites, he didn't learn jiu jitsu as a soldier in Japan. He learn't it in Germany. Miura wasn't his instructor. Komp has himself said that he never learnt shorinji kempo, nor did his instructors.

The shorinji kempo confusin comes down to a story that Matt Komp tells, in which he gave a demonstration of his jiu jitsu in Japan and the Japanese told him they thought it looked like shorinji kempo.

[Aegis]

Ahh, makes a bit more sense now. Where did you find that information? And who did Komp learn his jujutsu from?

[shinbushi]

My only problem with them is the name. Aiuchi mean mutual strike. Like a killing each other at the same time or like a double KO. I would rather learn a style where I alone win rather than a tie. ;-)

[SoKKlab]

My only problem with them is the name. Aiuchi mean mutual strike. Like a killing each other at the same time or like a double KO. I would rather learn a style where I alone win rather than a tie. ;-)
Yes, as an Iai-Jutsu term it means Mutual Death or Killing. I found that quite amusing, although apparently it also means 'Chicken Fried Rice twice and hold the soy sauce please'...

[Jutte]

Also, 'inner harmony'.

[Tripitaka of AA]

So should we expect the various websites will change their references to Shorinji Kempo as a root? One would hope so. Not because Shorinji Kenshi think "their art has always been top secret and not for the uninitiated", but simply to remove another misleading tale that has almost become fact. Don't you agree that Martial Arts history already has more than it's share of myths and legends that bear no relation to the truth?

It is quite flattering to think that people would want to claim a link to Shorinji Kempo. A compliment one might say. But it is also a "backhanded" compliment in that it implies that the "best bits" were retained and unnecessary aspects rejected, thereby offering an improved product. As there was no influence, the improvements don't exist.

It may also work to attract students away from the Shorinji Kempo clubs that do exist, under the false belief that they will be getting "the next best thing".


Having said all that... the Art that is the topic of this thread is in all probability excellent stuff and well-loved by the students and instructors alike. Any efforts to detail its history were no doubt made with the best intentions by dedicated people. People who would be unhappy to have their work marred by a falsehood, however tiny it might appear to be. :)

[Aegis]

The website that will soon come out for my club makes reference to the possible links with Shorinji Kempo, but will not claim to be definitely descended from it. As for other clubs, I have no say as to their websites or history, so I really can't say you should expect anything.

[pachanga]

Does anyone know why the Aiuchi people split from the Jitsu Foundation? Are there any major differences between the two styles or the way they train?

[Aegis]

From what I've heard the split was caused by various politics at the time, possibly to do with the way money was allocated/spent, though that is just a guess from me. The current situation is that the 2 styles train in a very similar way, using much the same techniques and progression. In my club there is a girl who trains both styles quite happily, and the tuition she recieves crosses over as well as any 2 teachers in the same style by the looks of it.

A lot of people like to point out that there are now Shodan and possibly even Nidan grades who weren't training when the split happened, so the actual situation is only remembered by a few people. Most of the griping seems to come from people who had nothign to do with either association until the split; the high grades actually seem to have totally settled their differences.

[SoKKlab]

Does anyone know why the Aiuchi people split from the Jitsu Foundation? Are there any major differences between the two styles or the way they train? Money, Ie somebody was making alot of money and it wasn't reaching the members merely a higher state of bank account.

Alot of sore wounds still barely healed if you talk to people who defected (not recommended as bitchery is boring after too long in the sun).

Most of the basics are similar (but not always the same) between the two, somethings have changed radically and the Aiuchi system is always absorbing new stimuli, whilst remaining fundamentally Japanese Ju Jitsu.

Both are still similar enough in their training methodology to be considered of the same ilk.

[Kogusoku]

Hi, I just visited the Aiuchi jiu-jitsu website and had a look at their syllabus.
Being a practicioner in a classical Japanese jujutsu ryuha, I can safely say that aiuchi isn't really a traditional format for jujutsu. It's more of a modern generic self defence based jujutsu system with a substantial amount of kodokan judo nage waza incorporated into it's syllabus.

[Mekugi]

Took the words right out of my mouth Steve!

I was going to post on here about that, you beat me to it!

-Russ

Hi, I just visited the Aiuchi jiu-jitsu website and had a look at their syllabus.
Being a practicioner in a classical Japanese jujutsu ryuha, I can safely say that aiuchi isn't really a traditional format for jujutsu. It's more of a modern generic self defence based jujutsu system with a substantial amount of kodokan judo nage waza incorporated into it's syllabus.

[Aegis]

Kodokan Judo is one of the parent arts of this style of jujutsu, yes. There is no claim anywhere to being koryu, at least as far as I've seen from my style (Aiuchi being the "dark side" of mine ;))

[Mekugi]

Kodokan Judo is one of the parent arts of this style of jujutsu, yes. There is no claim anywhere to being koryu, at least as far as I've seen from my style (Aiuchi being the "dark side" of mine ;))

TRUE it does not make a claim to koryu...but it does define jujutsu as thus:

Jiu jitsu is a physical and mental discipline that provides effective self defence and self development. It is a traditional Japanese martial art that has been tried and tested over many hundreds of years, with a wide variety of techniques which rely on the principles of softness, compliance and flexibility. Today it is found in many self-defence and restraint techniques used by police and armed forces the world over, and is the basis of the physical skills taught in most self-defence courses. It takes a rational approach to the way the body works and how to make the best use of your size and strength when dealing with an attacker.

Jiu jitsu means literally the 'Gentle Art', as it relies on the application of technique rather than strength. In the same way that a willow tree bends with the wind, so too should a practitioner of jiu jitsu adapt to the force of the attack and turn it to his or her advantage. Jiu jitsu consists of a wide range of techniques which include joint locks, throws, immobilisations and strikes to nerve points and vulnerable parts. Practice of jiu jitsu encourages awareness, confidence and adaptability to circumstances. These are crucial elements in personal safety.

So, it allows you to be the judge. The page never claims Aiuchi to be "traditional", however the word Jujutsu itself is defined as "traditional". :confused: 'Prolly just lack of continuity in the writing.

[Aegis]

I'll agree with your assessment about what's wrong with it. It probably should have read: koryu jiu jitsu is.... etc

and added that shorinji-kan jujutsu is in fact a modernisation of (among other things) jujutsu rather than actually being the same art practiced in the 18th century.

[Mekugi]

Pet peeve thing. No big deal, really. No major claims to mythological figures, bogus incantations...it's all good.

BTW.. Steve is in London now, if anyone wants to see some of the "old stuff", I am sure he would be pleased as punch to oblidge!

I'll agree with your assessment about what's wrong with it. It probably should have read:

and added that shorinji-kan jujutsu is in fact a modernisation of (among other things) jujutsu rather than actually being the same art practiced in the 18th century.

[Aegis]

Actually that would be somethign I'd really like to see some day, just for the experience. I'm perfectly content practicing my modern style, but I do have some interest in the development, so looking at proper traditional jujutsu would be a great insight.

[Kogusoku]

Yeah, I'm trying to find a decent premises in London to hold classes. I'm still searching and slowly going out of my mind from lack of training. I'm looking for some where in the Chelsea area or there abouts, since it's close to where I work and live.

[Moony]

Hello, please forgive me if i'm committing thread necromancy but jist a couple of comments from an insider. (I've been doing Aiuchi for about 3 years now)

My only problem with them is the name. Aiuchi mean mutual strike. Like a killing each other at the same time or like a double KO. I would rather learn a style where I alone win rather than a tie. ;-)

For us the term is used to discribe the ideal way we would get our block/defence to occur as the attack comes in. We know in reality we're unlikely to get it like this but it's a nice ideal. And this is from one of the founders of the Style.

Does anyone know why the Aiuchi people split from the Jitsu Foundation? Are there any major differences between the two styles or the way they train?

Aegis pretty much got it all on this, although i'm not the girl he mentioned in his post she's a good friend of mine and i've joined her as a cross-trainee in the evil ways of TJF ( ;) ). The main difference from what i can gather is that TJF is still a bit 'grrr' and 'psycho' were as we're fairly mellow about things (think hippies).

Hi, I just visited the Aiuchi jiu-jitsu website and had a look at their syllabus.
Being a practicioner in a classical Japanese jujutsu ryuha, I can safely say that aiuchi isn't really a traditional format for jujutsu. It's more of a modern generic self defence based jujutsu system with a substantial amount of kodokan judo nage waza incorporated into it's syllabus.

Ummm.....the syllabus isn't up there. I know because i've been waiting for it to go up so i can use it as a training aid, our throw's and locks are up there granted.....but no syllabi (is that a word?). The copy i have still has light blue belt on it and we got rid of that grade over a year ago, and i downloaded it after the change. We're currently having our syllabus revamped at the moment anyway, with the change in our belt system according to our syllaus i'm a purple belt with flashes of light blue.

Can't really say how traditional we are or are not. The traditional part might still be tagged on to how we treateach other in relation or respect and reiing etc, but that's just me guessing.

Kodokan Judo is one of the parent arts of this style of jujutsu, yes. There is no claim anywhere to being koryu, at least as far as I've seen from my style (Aiuchi being the "dark side" of mine ;))

Being the Dark Side rocks, Luke was always being told not to underestimate the power of the Dark Side....

Right....can't think of any more to post....

Moony

[kempo-kid]

:woo: Still awaiting the silly-bus. Aiuchi as my instructor calls it is flowerly compared to my kempo-jujitsu

KK

(purple belt in aiuchi, thats me)

[Graham]

'Aiuchi' (or 'Jitsu foundation') jiu jitsu is essesntialy the self defence parts of old judo, though its gone down its own path over the years, rather like BJJ, but a different path. In the old days, I've been told, judo classes comprised of both modern jujutsu style self defence aspects and randori/kata. They kind of split, judo dropped the explicit self defence aspects. Some of those who continued to teach it called it 'jiu jitsu'.

The nage waza of Aiuchi are essentialy the same as judo, but still include, e.g. kuke nage, which is an old judo throw rarely mentioned in modern judo. Also similar to old judo are the arm, leg and kneck locks. Though they have been partly 'verticalised': generally being taught as standing tecniques.There is a smatering of aikijutsu mixed in there too.

The history may not be as exotic as people like to belive, but its still a good solid MA.

[kempo-kid]

:woo: Still awaiting the silly-bus. Aiuchi as my instructor calls it is flowerly compared to my kempo-jujitsu

KK

(purple belt in aiuchi, thats me)

I forgot to update to update got my Blue last April (2005) :D

Aiuchi and still going strong.

KK

[Jitsu-Luke]

I have been taught that Aiuchi means simultaneous strike i.e. being so aware of your surroundings that when attacked you can avoid or block at the same time as striking your attacker not one after the other. Whether that is the correct translation or not I don't know as I was told it also means inner harmony and there are a few other translations on this forum. As Japanese is not my native language I can’t say for sure but I do prefer simultaneous strike to mutual death as we are taught generally to avoid being hit opposed to taking it in the face.


There is a kind of aiki aspect to execution of tecniques, with more emphasis on using the opponents momentum (than in some styles of JJ). Its a good style if you want to learn good solid throwing, locking, ukemi etc, probably not so good if you want brutal no-nonsense streetfighting skills.


I'm not sure what your idea of street fighting is but most street fights are not like a boxing match and often end up in a grapple or on the floor. Jitsu offers ground fighting, grappling defence, defence from grabs, a range of head locks, arm locks, wrist locks I would say that Jiu-jitsu is very well suited to street fighting and self defence. Although we do not develop are striking in the same way that a karate or taequondo club would we constantly use strikes. Either as a weakener or a way or taking the attackers attention from the arm lock about to be put on or the fight finishing head lock, or before we turn in for a throw as a distraction. As this is what we use striking for we are taught the dangerous areas of the body to attack i.e. groin, kidneys, temple, bridge of nose and thus making the distraction all the more effective. If being kneed or punched in the groin before being put flat on my face isn’t brutal no nonsense then I’m not sure what is. Jiu-jitsu teaches you to take control of the attacker and finish the fight quickly opposed to exchanging punches and kicks with someone potentially stronger than you, I value those as no nonsense, street fighting or self defense skills.

[SoKKlab]

I'm not sure what your idea of street fighting is but most street fights are not like a boxing match and often end up in a grapple or on the floor. Jitsu offers ground fighting, grappling defence, defence from grabs, a range of head locks, arm locks, wrist locks I would say that Jiu-jitsu is very well suited to street fighting and self defence. Although we do not develop are striking in the same way that a karate or taequondo club would we constantly use strikes. Either as a weakener or a way or taking the attackers attention from the arm lock about to be put on or the fight finishing head lock, or before we turn in for a throw as a distraction. As this is what we use striking for we are taught the dangerous areas of the body to attack i.e. groin, kidneys, temple, bridge of nose and thus making the distraction all the more effective. If being kneed or punched in the groin before being put flat on my face isn’t brutal no nonsense then I’m not sure what is. Jiu-jitsu teaches you to take control of the attacker and finish the fight quickly opposed to exchanging punches and kicks with someone potentially stronger than you, I value those as no nonsense, street fighting or self defense skills.

The main problem that Aiuchi and similar systems of Ju Jitsu have, is not that it doesn't contain lots of quasi-nasty stuff like atemi etc, but that the way they train does not take into account a resisting opponent (except their occassional groundwork from the knees, which I always enjoyed).

IE what's the point in knowing how to hit somebody in the 'doodad 29 point', or being able to show thirty five hundred variations on the Goose Neck Wrist Lock and play wrist spaghetti, if you can't throw a punch properly and never face any resistance in your training.

You'll never be able to apply said Wrist Lock unless you learn to work against someone fighting back and that is something that they don't do.

And that's the shame of it, as other than that I enjoyed training in Aiuchi,
but ultimately feel that they need to make their training more 'realistic'.

[kempo-kid]

Did you partake in a V? which club did you train in

KK

[Jitsu-Luke]

I agree although I still think the techniques are very efficient for the street compared to other more sport orientated arts. I think the trouble with sparring or randori in jitsu is that it either becomes judo/grappling or people hold back and kick and punch each other like karate or kick boxing and therefore losing the jiujitsu aspects. The main problem is that your dealing with other people who know what you know so when they attack its held back and they don't give alot of balance or momentum away cos they know whats coming. Maybe jitsu techniques would be better shown in some sort of mixed martial arts comp/sparring as we are taught alot of kick and punch defences?

[Dave Humm]

Just to be a bit pedantic but

"Ai uchi" means to strike mutually or harmoniously, contextually it can mean when two people strike each other at the same time, it can mean a draw resulting when two equally skilled people fail to achieve an advantage and, it can also refer to the mutual killing of two people through a simultaneous strike or cut.

Bit of a daft name to describe a school or style of Jujutsu.

Regards

[Alansmurf]

Jujitsu...Jiujutsu...Jujutsu..

The names change like the winds..

IN my limited experience there are subtle differences between the various schools within the systems of jitsu ..let alone between the systems themselves.

To some people lineage is important to others the effectiveness of techniques for the street others it is the seeking of the perfect technique others the beauty of a flowing and blending atemi into throw into lock .

Jujitsu has a myriad of differences but I would suggest there is a solid set of core techniques practiced by all the various schools.

Lets be honest as students or instructors there are techniques we do not like ...hence do not train in as much as others....leading to these techniques being "left out " of a syllabus eventually. So the content of ones syllabus changes.

Again the mind set of the instructors affects the syllabus ....hard core atemi training at one school would be considered different to a flowing throwing instructor...

my suggestion would be togo with what you like and enjoy....but remain open to other styles and techniques..knowledge is a wonderful thing...and you will never know it all .....


enjoy your training and let the politicians and egotists blow their trumpets .......who is the better person?

:Angel:

[Jitsu-Luke]

Bit of a daft name to describe a school or style of Jujutsu.

Regards

I had never heard of this translation before I read through these forums and find it really odd as a member of aiuchi we are taught something quite different to mutual death as I have already explained the meaning as taught to myself by my Aiuchi jitsu instructor and to quote from Moony

For us the term is used to discribe the ideal way we would get our block/defence to occur as the attack comes in. We know in reality we're unlikely to get it like this but it's a nice ideal. And this is from one of the founders of the Style

I really don't know where this idea of mutual death has come from unless different instructors of Aiuchi are teaching different things.?

[Kogusoku]

合打ち　（あいうち　） Ai-uchi - Mutual or simultaneous striking/killing.


Here's an essay on the term (http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/aiuchi.html)

[SoKKlab]

Did you partake in a V? which club did you train in

KK

Many times,
those things are flawed to say the least and do not represent 'resistance'.

To clarify, I've been training in Thai Martial Arts (Muay Thai mostly) since 1989 (read profile), do you honestly feel that one of those 'V' things is in anyway 'realistic' from my perspective? it's Kato vs Closeau without the follothru.

Realistic to me is learning to do this stuff against people who are fighting back.

If most modern systems of Ju Jitsu trained with 'realism' in mind, they would abandon at least half their syllabi (or at least they way that they taught it) and get back to training in what really works, from a 'realistic' perspective.

Holborn, BTW, when it was still going.

[kempo-kid]

Many times,
those things are flawed to say the least and do not represent 'resistance'.

To clarify, I've been training in Thai Martial Arts (Muay Thai mostly) since 1989 (read profile), do you honestly feel that one of those 'V' things is in anyway 'realistic' from my perspective?
At the lower grade level in which you were training possibly not. Buit you can't run before you can walk, I can say when I am attacking in a V I am fighting back.

Realistic to me is learning to do this stuff against people who are fighting back.
In a sporting context? or saturday night outside the pub context?

If most modern systems of Ju Jitsu trained with 'realism' in mind, they would abandon at least half their syllabi (or at least they way that they taught it) and get back to training in what really works, from a 'realistic' perspective.

Why only mondern systems of jujitsu? what about the koryu jujitsu styles? if not why not? There is always this realism vrs martial art arguement. It is not the system its the person employing the system.

KK

[Crow]

I used to train in a TJF offshoot for about 2 years. After that I changed in to a another modern jujutsu style hokutoryu, occasionally train with BJJ and kickboxing (I can train in all 3 with the same price). As all 3 of these use resistance training, sparring (alltough I havent done stand up as much, partly because of my yellow belt in the new style, the sparring with hard contact really comes to play in orange, to which I am grading in few weeks hopefully), I have noticed a world of difference in the development in my skill to aply techniques.

Most people who use the ol "boxing/BJJ/any such is for the ring, not the street but my no-contact/kata-based art is" usually have no idea of the skill level of a good boxer or wrestler. Last time I saw a confrontation between a boxer (my friend, trained 7-8 years, havent trained in about 5 years since) and another person (who's training if any I do not know) was last night. It lasted all half-a-second. After that the bouncer from the nearby bar and me helped the other fellow up, checked that he could stand after a few minutes, then I left home and the bouncer had to babysit the man untill a cab came.

As the neighbourhood that I live in isnt the safest I have had oppurtunity to see plenty of self-defence, streetfighting, "da badazz" situations. Usually the skills used are reraly the deatc-touch, shuriken-throwing and aiki-enhanced techniques. Mostly I see lot of "streetwise" psychology, awareness, avoidance and if it gets physical the good old basic stuff.

On a side note btw. I once saw a guy tackled in a bar straight in front of me. They ended up in the ground inside the bar. Must have been once in a lifetime incindent as they didnt get trampled, molten lava pits didnt open beneath them or broken class didnt cut them in to unrecognisable. It did seem rather pathetic tough and anyone with a short training of goundfigthing could have dominated the fight and get up if they wanted. Now neither could.

[SoKKlab]

At the lower grade level in which you were training possibly not. Buit you can't run before you can walk, I can say when I am attacking in a V I am fighting back.

Firstly, how do you know as to what my 'grade' was and is? The belt around my waist matters not to me, it's what I know and can apply that counts.

And if you are training for 'self-defence' purposes, how will you ever know if you are in anyway capable of applying what you think you know, unless you have some level of resistance in your training?

Why would I need to 'walk before I can run' when none of the people I was training with could actually fight?

And that doesn't neccesarily have to mean 'a sporting emphasis'.

I've fought in lots of Muay Thai bouts at a high level of skill against fit trained athletic opponents who were trying to take my head off, do you honestly think that something like a 'v' would be anything more than a game of pattycake in pajamas to me?

The training I have seen in many Modern Ju Jitsu systems (the remit of this conversation) is weak and flawed in comparison, because the practitioners lack the fundamentals of things like being able to throw a punch and land it on target against someone who is resisting.

'V' s are for people who kid themselves into thinking that they are learning the real deal when really they are settling for the mundane, ordinary and relatively useless.

They're the Cobra-kai of martial arts a pre-arranged dance for people who think what they are training in is 'too deadly' and a waste of time.

Ju Jitsu training would benefit enormously from more meaningful resistance and less pretend fighting (as would most martial arts systems).

Goto a MMA class and train against even one of their lower level trainees (say nine months training) and see if you last more than thirty seconds in a fight with them and that's 'just a sport'.

In fact get them to 'attack' you and see if you can adequately 'defend' as you would in a 'v' for those thirty seconds but not stop-start-staccato-style as you do in a 'v' but continuously with all the energy that that contains...

The way you train is fundamentally important, it is all very well knowing one hundred wrist locks and a thousand throws, but how many of those could you ever apply in real life if you had to?

If most of you were being honest, the answer would be 'very few if any'.

Why? Because once you introduce somebody fighting back into equation most Martial Artists training falls apart because they are not training to take that into account.

I don't have the time to discuss this any further, but I will say that I enjoyed training in Aiuchi JJ very much, I felt that the teaching in the technical aspects was very good, the main drawback to the training was the 'lack of meaningful resistance' and always will be in my eyes until Modern Ju Jitsu systems become more 'realistic' in their approach to training.

To me How you train is of most importance,but that's just me.

[kempo-kid]

Firstly, how do you know as to what my 'grade' was and is? The belt around my waist matters not to me, it's what I know and can apply that counts.
Because you mentioned you'd done some JJJ (on the [PJ] forum). Also the grade is not for you its for others to see how far and hard they can attack/push you "safely"


And if you are training for 'self-defence' purposes, how will you ever know if you are in anyway capable of applying what you think you know, unless you have some level of resistance in your training?

Why would I need to 'walk before I can run' when none of the people I was training with could actually fight?

And that doesn't neccesarily have to mean 'a sporting emphasis'.

No but that is the context you are putting it in within the below statement.

I've fought in lots of Muay Thai bouts at a high level of skill against fit trained athletic opponents who were trying to take my head off, do you honestly think that something like a 'v' would be anything more than a game of pattycake in pajamas to me?

Ok you never encountered martin mouth, Bryn, FTHL, and many more that come to mind then?

The training I have seen in many Modern Ju Jitsu systems (the remit of this conversation) is weak and flawed in comparison, because the practitioners lack the fundamentals of things like being able to throw a punch and land it on target against someone who is resisting.

So what you are saying is that Thai boxing is the way, How many Judo people do you know who can land a punch? that by definintion is a mordern system of Jujitsu

'V' s are for people who kid themselves into thinking that they are learning the real deal when really they are settling for the mundane, ordinary and relatively useless.
In your opinion

They're the Cobra-kai of martial arts a pre-arranged dance for people who think what they are training in is 'too deadly' and a waste of time.
Now your getting Aiuchi confused with Dillman


Goto a MMA class and train against even one of their lower level trainees (say nine months training) and see if you last more than thirty seconds in a fight with them and that's 'just a sport'.

I lasted more than 30 seconds with the british champion Rosi Sexton. (Not much longer though may I add :D )

Can i also say though, how would anyone fare in a glass covered carpark rather than a matted area? You dont want to be going to the floor IRL, what about if its not one on one?

In fact get them to 'attack' you and see if you can adequately 'defend' as you would in a 'v' for those thirty seconds but not stop-start-staccato-style as you do in a 'v' but continuously with all the energy that that contains...
OK this statement confirms that you weren't experiancing a low to middle grade V. So in reason you are juging a styles ability to adequatly defend or have the ability to use in a real situation from a white or yellow belt prepective

The way you train is fundamentally important, it is all very well knowing one hundred wrist locks and a thousand throws, but how many of those could you ever apply in real life if you had to?
same with any style martial or sport orinated. Judo players have hundreds of techniques they use about 4 of them

If most of you were being honest, the answer would be 'very few if any'.
As i mentioned above



I don't have the time to discuss this any further, but I will say that I enjoyed training in Aiuchi JJ very much, I felt that the teaching in the technical aspects was very good, the main drawback to the training was the 'lack of meaningful resistance' and always will be in my eyes until Modern Ju Jitsu systems become more 'realistic' in their approach to training.
Ok so no more time to discuss something in which you have placed so much thought and effort into. OK no prob :)

To me How you train is of most importance,but that's just me.


That you read To me how I train is of most importance[/quote]

KK

[Jitsu-Luke]

I do agree that we don't really have the resistance training but if you were for example going at it and resisting especially lower grades who don't have the control or techniques of the higher grades there would be to many injuries. If someone is resisting an arm lock causing you to use force it would probably snap or a head lock.

Muay thai although from what I have seen I am sure its extremely effective in the street especially against an untrained/ unfit attacker, but the syllabus is quite limited. I might not have had the resistance training but I know enough to ensure that if I cant get a lock on or a throw goes wrong and the attacker gets hold of me or tries to get me in a head lock I'll know techniques to deal with that kind of attack. Also I value the amount of weapons defense training we do that alot of arts don't.

I also agree that alot of the stuff we do I wouldnt use in the street but if we only did the streetworthy stuff we would have alot of black belts about. The more advanced stuff we are capable of makes our basics that much better and also Jitsu taken from judo kan is very old and has alot of traditional stuff which I am also interested in aswell as the self defence aspect.

I have to say watching the dan grade gauntlet at this years nationals really showed me what can be achieved and as higher grades the attackers didnt stop at one punch they were really going for it and that was proper resistance training as much as our techniques could afford without serious injury, though it would be very bad to let lower grades train in this way as everybodys safety has to be considered during training.

[fthl]

1. I'm an aiuchi instructor. :) (so I'm probably bias)

2. I like the name. simultaneous strike, inner harmony, simultaneous death, etc. I think it gives a flavour of the essence of the style. It is vague, specific, contradictory, a bit philosophical. everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I quite like it.

Odagiri Ichiun (C1600) used it to describe the level of mental awareness appropriate to a contest. To him it meant:

“Paying no attention whatever to the outcome of the contest, being not at all concerned with the question of coming out of it safely or not. When a man faces a deadly situation in this frame of mind, he is the most resolute, the most desperate, the most daring person before whom no enemy can stand, unless he himself has come to the same resolution.”
(from Zen and Japanese Culture, Suzuki, Routledge and Kegan: Paul and Princeton University Press, cited in The Judo Manual, Tony Reay and Geoffrey Hobbs, Stanley Paul & Company Ltd, 1979).

As my instructor said to me...

"Although Aiuchi is used to describe a simultaneous strike in Karate, where both competitors coincidentally attack each other at the same time, this is not the true meaning. To Odagiri Ichiun, a defender must not allow him- or herself to be distracted by thoughts of injury or of the consequences of the contest. This is like the term mushin meaning ‘no mind’ where the defender empties the mind of thought and distraction to allow more natural and therefore faster reaction. Ultimately, a defender’s mind should be so clear that reaction can occur simultaneously to the attack, hence the meaning ‘simultaneous strike’. Although it is probably impossible for this state to be achieved it is a concept and a philosophy which I believe to be important.

Aiuchi therefore means not only ‘inner harmony’ representing balance between mind and body, but to me emphasises the essential role of the mind in martial arts. Without determination, resolution, and control Jiu Jitsu might as well be any form of physical exercise. It is ‘aiuchi’ that makes it different. "


3. We don't do enough resistance training. I agree entirely, but we do a damn site more than we did five years ago, and we are continually changing. Having trained in the past at Holbourn, I can assure you that the 'flavour' of my club is completely different, and I doubt you'd recognise it. Holbourn was always a junior grade club and it never really developed beyond that because of where it was and the members it had (it was run in an LA Fitness).

'V' s are for people who kid themselves into thinking that they are learning the real deal when really they are settling for the mundane, ordinary and relatively useless.

True at the junior grade level. I would not agree at the senior levels. To be in a senior grade v still unsettles me. You know wholeheartedly that they do what they can to take your head off. If a blue belt does not honestly believe that I will be attackeing probably they will get hit. If they pansy around, I'll not just stand there, but swing in a kick, or a left or similar. No it is not 'real', but I don't think that it is "mundane, ordinary and relatively useless".

Historically it was a shock for grades to turn up to a blue or brown grading and find that all of a sudden things went wrong, and folk fought back. This is changing, and we are bringing it down the grades, but still it is rare at junior levels and i think this is not a bad thing. I want my students to get the flavour of the ideal, and build up the challenges gradually so that the results are acheivable. I want to set the learning curve to the student, and not drop them in the deep end as soon as they walk in the door. I find a greater sense of acheivement personally in coaching the person who is reluctant and unsure into something they thought was impossible, and puching their boundaries, rather than the student with no sense of fear and a natural gift.

I think getting students to repeat basic movements in a controlled way and then build and develop them creates a better standard of understanding and competance. I agree in part with Dave Rubens analogy of sawing a piece of wood - would get the groove going first before going for it.

As long as you are honest with students about what you and they are doing, I don't see it as an issue.

Aiuchi is not perfect, it it not the only or the solution but it has some nice ideas, and I enjoy it. The techniques can be ramped up for resistance training once you have the basics, but only once you have the basics. Having said that, more thought needs to be put in and I dare say we'll contunie to change.

I think that there is a lot of merit in what we do, and although there are significant gaps, I personally feel that the merits of the system outweigh the disadvantages. Once you have a grounding you can develop your skills in other arts to fill these. For eg I also train in kempo and judo, but my great love will always be aiuchi.

I'd welcome anyone to come play. We go to the pub afterwards and this is an important part of the session, too often neglected by many 'resistant' arts. Pah.
Amateurs.... :D