I am the center of existence [Archive]

LilBunnyRabbit

25-Nov-2002, 05:20 PM

Quote? What quote?

Who's Juddy Krishnamurti?

However, working from basic principles there is one question that can prove the above. What do you know?

You know that you believe yourself to be real.
You know that the you you believe yourself to be receives impressions from a world that may be real, or may be created to prevent you from going mad.

Taking these two points together you can nicely prove nothing is real except self, but since you can experience only your own self and no one else's only you can prove yourself to be real to you.

Unfortunately it all breaks down when you try to walk through a wall.

wayofthedragon

25-Nov-2002, 05:24 PM

:eek:WoW!!!!

Darzeka

26-Nov-2002, 04:52 AM

I think realising this (my original statement) helps to give you a bit of perspective (taken from the fact that existence goes on into infinity). You essentially don't matter to anything beyond yourself.

You can't walk through the wall because everyone else beleives you can't and deep down you beleive that too.
All eventualities have an equal proability until beleif is entered into the equation. You beleive something will happen and it does. If it doesn't then all the other "beleif" power around (all other conciousnesses) made it happen.
There's just one problem after acepting this - you can't change what you believe, let alone anything else's.

What's a hangover? (I haven't ever had one)
Still unsure what you asked me to try out WOTD.

Everything is real - all thoughts, dreams, ideas - somewhere it exists I am merely getting an image of it somehow.

I have absolutely no problem with being a figment of something's imagination.

YODA

26-Nov-2002, 07:35 AM

I think...
Therfore I am...... I think :D

pgm316

26-Nov-2002, 08:17 AM

Its like the philosopher that had a dream about a bird flying. Then he contemplated; was the bird dreaming about all of us!

wayofthedragon

26-Nov-2002, 03:34 PM

Wouldn't that be crazy though...If we really don't exist.....if we really are just the figment of someone's imagination. That none of this is real. and that we'll never know what it's like to be real...

:eek:

Scary stuff.....

But, I know that I'm real....hmmmm....I better be, I go through too much crap not to be real.

If not, I think I need to have a talk with mr. imaginative man and wake him up so his reality can continue.

Sean O

01-Dec-2002, 01:54 AM

Man you have no idea how many people have brought this kind of thing up to me before. And I always give the same answer...

Whether we are in a real world with real things, or just, as you guys put it, the figment of someone (or somethings) imagination, we, quite simply, are.

Then again, perhaps existance doesn't really have to be some kind of matter... I mean if we are just a figment of imagination, we're still there, aren't we? Just rather than being in a book or something we're in someone's head...

Originally posted by Darzeka
You can't walk through the wall because everyone else beleives you can't and deep down you beleive that too.
All eventualities have an equal proability until beleif is entered into the equation. You beleive something will happen and it does. If it doesn't then all the other "beleif" power around (all other conciousnesses) made it happen.
There's just one problem after acepting this - you can't change what you believe, let alone anything else's.

...You can't walk through the wall because two solid objects can't pass through each other :) but I think I know what you were getting at...

The law of averages states that anything that can happen, eventually will. For example, one day some friends and I were chucking snowballs at each other. One of my friends and I threw a snowball at each other at the same time, and they collided in midair. The next two did the same thing. Unbelievable, but true.

This what you were saying? And if it was, what does it have to do with the thread?

Sean O

Darzeka

01-Dec-2002, 04:01 AM

I'm saying that we have been brought up with people telling us physics is real and they are hard and fast rules that can't be broken.

We believe this. Do these things happen because we believe they will or because of the laws of physics?

What if there are conciousnesses floating around (ones we can't see) that have the same or more "belief power" if they believe something will happen that is against what we believe and it happens it could provide a reason for it.

It is related to the thread vaguely because if I am the center of existence then shouldn't I be able to make it anything I want it to be? And if everyone else is the centre of thier existences and our existences collide would our "belief power" collide as well? Thus making what is the most popular belief happen?

I have a habit of trying to think of these outlandish things in an attempt to make my mind step beyond my normal style of thought (where it is just based purely upon what we "know" of our life). I am really just trying to find out everything and every thought I have is true somewhere so I have discovered something new.

YODA

01-Dec-2002, 10:51 AM

Interesting thoughts Darzeka

What is accepted physics today was magic a few hundred yaers ago.

LilBunnyRabbit

01-Dec-2002, 11:47 AM

...You can't walk through the wall because two solid objects can't pass through each other but I think I know what you were getting at...

Why not, its no more remarkable than all of the gas in a room turning up in one particular corner, which is also technically possible.

We believe this. Do these things happen because we believe they will or because of the laws of physics?

The problem is the laws of physics aren't accurate, merely good approximations of a system. The other thing is that these things happen even before there are laws to explain them (gravity for example).

What is accepted physics today was magic a few hundred yaers ago.

Or as Arthur C Clarke put it, "Any sufficiently advanced science appears like magic."

Sean O

01-Dec-2002, 02:47 PM

Why not, its no more remarkable than all of the gas in a room turning up in one particular corner, which is also technically possible.

I know that gas can collect in one corner of a room, but thats not really the same thing as walking through a wall.

The problem is the laws of physics aren't accurate, merely good approximations of a system. The other thing is that these things happen even before there are laws to explain them (gravity for example).

I don't at all think that physics are concrete and I think that we will never know how everything works.

All eventualities have an equal proability until beleif is entered into the equation. You beleive something will happen and it does. If it doesn't then all the other "beleif" power around (all other conciousnesses) made it happen.

That is true and false at the same time. As far as physics goes, it is completely possible to do the impossible. I mean, any world record you can think of was "impossible" to do at one time, but it was still done. And it wasn't done by accident, the person who set that record believed he could.

But what you said there is wrong for many other things. If you believe that you can win the lottery if you pick a few certain numbers, it probably still won't happen.

There's just one problem after acepting this - you can't change what you believe, let alone anything else's.

Well, lets use this in the wall theory again. In all logic, there was probably a time when people thought they could walk through walls, so then they decided to try it. Then, it didn't work, which is exactly why we today don't believe we can.

Just a little update on my opinions.

khafra

02-Dec-2002, 06:42 PM

Darzeka--Ever been to Thee [sic] Temple ov [sic] Psychic Youth? I have a feeling you may have, because of your references to chaos, but the short explanation goes thusly: Yes, belief is an important component of determining your subjective reality, and there are ways to talk to your subconscious on a fundamental level, look for Sigils and Austin Osman Spare for more.

Now, enough esoteric mysticism, and back to the simple philosophical question; My primary email address's displayed name has been "Second Person Solipsist" for six years :D

LilBunnyRabbit

02-Dec-2002, 10:44 PM

Wouldn't that be crazy though...If we really don't exist.....if we really are just the figment of someone's imagination. That none of this is real. and that we'll never know what it's like to be real...

Do you feel like you exist?

Yep, thought so. So if to all extents and purposes you feel as though you exist, you may as well assume that you do, because whether or not you do actually exist is unrelated to your personal experiences.

I know that gas can collect in one corner of a room, but thats not really the same thing as walking through a wall.

Well, its working on the same principle, that the atoms all move in a particular way at a particular time. Most of solid matter is simply empty space, if you could phase that space to move in the right way, and do the same with, say, your arm except with a slight displacement then you could easily move your arm through the object.

I don't at all think that physics are concrete and I think that we will never know how everything works.

Hence the word approximation. However the fact that these theories are tested over and over, and have not yet been found at fault in any significant way (ignoring non-linearity) suggests that if not concrete, then they're at least bamboo construction. And no, we won't ever know how everything works, or at least we'll never know everything.

Well, lets use this in the wall theory again. In all logic, there was probably a time when people thought they could walk through walls, so then they decided to try it. Then, it didn't work, which is exactly why we today don't believe we can.

Some people refuse to believe that fire is hot, it still burns them. Some people refuse to believe that the circumference of a circle divided by its diameter is an irrational number, they argue for such strange things as 10^1/2 and 22/7 instead, doesn't make it real.

And no, when they do the calculations or stick their hand in the fire they still suffer the same errors and affects as anyone else.

That is true and false at the same time. As far as physics goes, it is completely possible to do the impossible. I mean, any world record you can think of was "impossible" to do at one time, but it was still done. And it wasn't done by accident, the person who set that record believed he could.

Nope, it was possible, it just hadn't been done. It was possible by all the laws of physics and biology that were known, people simply didn't believe it was possible. The same applies to heavier-than-air flight.

Just because people believe or don't believe something doesn't mean its possible or impossible. Breatharians for example believe that they can survive by absorbing nutrients from the air.

Its a small sect with a high turnover since most are discovered eating, or die of starvation.

The theory that belief defines reality has been around for a long time, and to a degree there is accuracy in it. However just because you believe you can fly won't stop you from falling if you jump off a cliff (just ask some drug addicts), although you may believe that you're flying the ambulance crew will most likely believe that you're a mangled mass.

Darzeka

03-Dec-2002, 07:15 AM

No I haven't heard of that temple.

YOU believe you can walk through that wall but everyone else still doesn't believeit. So can your single belief outway everything elses' that thinks you can't walk through the wall? More than likely but there will still be some doubt in your mind until you see someone else walk it first.

Why does the coyote run into the painting of the tunnel? because he made it and knows its fake whereas the Road Runner doesn't care and keeps on running.

Man has never believed he could walk through walls. You see sometihng the first instinct from birth is t o touch it - this means you believe you can touch it from the beginning, you don't learn you can't.

You need to also enter into the idea that your existence reaches to the horizon in all directions and so does every other consciousness out there. So if someone you can't see believes something more strongly than you believe the opposite then the reality will be closer to theirs than yours.

This is just something to me amused rather than my set beliefs on life. I keep having ideas and exploring them.

YODA

03-Dec-2002, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by Darzeka

I keep having ideas and exploring them.

Keep on keepin' on Darkeka! :cool:

LilBunnyRabbit

03-Dec-2002, 08:05 AM

Why does the coyote run into the painting of the tunnel? because he made it and knows its fake whereas the Road Runner doesn't care and keeps on running.

And here was me thinking it was just a cartoon.

You need to also enter into the idea that your existence reaches to the horizon in all directions and so does every other consciousness out there. So if someone you can't see believes something more strongly than you believe the opposite then the reality will be closer to theirs than yours.

If you're outside their observations you're outside their 'belief field'.

Man has never believed he could walk through walls. You see sometihng the first instinct from birth is t o touch it - this means you believe you can touch it from the beginning, you don't learn you can't.

Again, lunatics believe that they can much more strongly than we believe that they can't.

And yet they can't.

YODA

03-Dec-2002, 08:07 AM

Again, lunatics believe that they can much more strongly than we believe that they can't.

And yet they can't.

LOL! Nice one Jimmy :D

I'm giving a presentation at work this afternoon - I'm gonna fit that one in somewhere for sure LOL!

big e

03-Dec-2002, 08:56 AM

You can't walk through the wall because everyone else beleives you can't and deep down you beleive that too.

so if you beive u can, u will ? ? ?
is this were we gain jedi powers
wiv this an the cencus thing - sorry YODA theres gonna be thousands of jedi everywhere

Sean O

03-Dec-2002, 10:02 PM

Well, its working on the same principle, that the atoms all move in a particular way at a particular time. Most of solid matter is simply empty space, if you could phase that space to move in the right way, and do the same with, say, your arm except with a slight displacement then you could easily move your arm through the object.

Well, physics isn't my strong suit, so forgive me :). But even still, phasing atoms isn't really "belief power".

Nope, it was possible, it just hadn't been done. It was possible by all the laws of physics and biology that were known, people simply didn't believe it was possible. The same applies to heavier-than-air flight.

Forgive me for saying so, but that makes no sense. According to all the laws of physics and biology, people knew it was possible, yet, they didn't believe you could do it?

What I was saying before had nothing to do with physics at all. I was getting back to the belief thing. I guess what I was trying to say was that there are some things that are possible if you believe and you are determined to accomplish them, and others, like my lottery example, aren't.

Some people refuse to believe that fire is hot, it still burns them. Some people refuse to believe that the circumference of a circle divided by its diameter is an irrational number, they argue for such strange things as 10^1/2 and 22/7 instead, doesn't make it real.

Well come on, those people have to be idiots. They may just have nothing better to do than try to find fault with something we have discovered, and proven to be right.

See, thinking of things like this will do that to you. In theory, if this is all some big dream world, and there are conciousnesses floating around that as darzeka put it, have a higher "belief power" than us, and therefore can do incredible things, then we can go on questioning anything we want to for an eternity, including walking through walls, which is in my opinion, pointless, since I doubt anyone in the real world would want to devote their lives to walking into walls, hoping that if they believe hard enough, then can walk through em.

Don't get me wrong, I love to explore my own mind, and I love to create questions that will make me think, but this one in particular is just too off the wall, I guess. Send me a video of someone walking through a wall, and I'll shut up :).

Sean O

LilBunnyRabbit

04-Dec-2002, 12:16 AM

Forgive me for saying so, but that makes no sense. According to all the laws of physics and biology, people knew it was possible, yet, they didn't believe you could do it?

According to all the knowledge we have its not only possible but relatively easy to get into space and settle another planet, yet many people (even the majority) say its impossible and genuinely believe it. Two years ago creating a completely artificial life form was impossible, yet with no great advance in knowledge its now being done.

What I was saying before had nothing to do with physics at all. I was getting back to the belief thing. I guess what I was trying to say was that there are some things that are possible if you believe and you are determined to accomplish them, and others, like my lottery example, aren't.

If its something that you, directly, can affect then yes, since all your belief is doing is persuading you to do something. If you can't do it, you'll teach yourself until you can. If its something seperate and independent then no, you can believe all you want but its not going to happen.

Well come on, those people have to be idiots. They may just have nothing better to do than try to find fault with something we have discovered, and proven to be right.

Yep, idiots. Just like Einsteing, Heisenberg, Gallileo, Newton, Tesla...

Don't get me wrong, I love to explore my own mind, and I love to create questions that will make me think, but this one in particular is just too off the wall, I guess. Send me a video of someone walking through a wall, and I'll shut up .

Just because its technically possible doesn't mean its been done.

simonlarcombe

04-Dec-2002, 10:40 AM

Are you at the centre?

How can you be at the centre of something which has no boundaries, it is impossible to measure. Perhaps you are nowhere :-)

As for walking through a wall... Well, according to a study in the New Scientist magazine (based on firing photons, one through air and one through a solid object) theoretically if you travelled fast enough you would pass straight through and not only that you (or each part of you) would emerge on the other side at the exact moment you touched the object (therefore faster than through air). Interesting but slightly jubious I think!

LilBunnyRabbit

04-Dec-2002, 12:15 PM

Ah yes, that one. Very dubious in fact, the photon had to be passed through specially treated Ceasium-53 (or something along those lines) first I believe, and then 'accelerated' to 32 times the speed of light. Unfortunately the photon did not apparently cross the intervening distance, so it teleported rather than passing through.

simonlarcombe

04-Dec-2002, 01:00 PM

It's lucky it didn't go through at the same time as a fly :-)

pgm316

04-Dec-2002, 01:12 PM

I recreated the simulation with my colleague, a paper clip and a elastic band. The theory doesn't hold up, plus my colleague is pretty pi$$ed with me! :D

khafra

04-Dec-2002, 06:26 PM

Heh. Works better with photons and electrons than larger objects (thus with smaller waveforms). Since they're probability waves, photons and such _can_ teleport through solid objects. However, to prevent the breaking of special relativity, yadda, yadda, it's all random, and no actual information can survive the trip. Thus, if you were standing next to a wall and trying to tunnel through with some way of fantastically increasing the probability of tunnelling, all that would make it through would be perhaps your liver, your left foot, and half a kidney, and they'd be something completely different when they got through to the other side.

LilBunnyRabbit

04-Dec-2002, 07:09 PM

Hey, I can clone myself instantaneously!

Unfortunately the clone turns up as a cloud of hydrogen atoms somewhere adrift in space.

Sean O

04-Dec-2002, 10:42 PM

Some people refuse to believe that fire is hot, it still burns them. Some people refuse to believe that the circumference of a circle divided by its diameter is an irrational number, they argue for such strange things as 10^1/2 and 22/7 instead, doesn't make it real.

Yep, idiots. Just like Einsteing, Heisenberg, Gallileo, Newton, Tesla...

Okay, what the hell is that? Of course there was a time when people had no idea that fire could burn them, or that c/d=pi, I'm not stupid. The thing is, you said REFUSE not REFUSED, meaning that there are still people today who believe that. Besides, your examples of "idiots" (who I never acually named) are dead.

According to all the knowledge we have its not only possible but relatively easy to get into space and settle another planet, yet many people (even the majority) say its impossible and genuinely believe it. Two years ago creating a completely artificial life form was impossible, yet with no great advance in knowledge its now being done.

I forgot about that, I understand what you're saying now.

If its something that you, directly, can affect then yes, since all your belief is doing is persuading you to do something. If you can't do it, you'll teach yourself until you can. If its something seperate and independent then no, you can believe all you want but its not going to happen.

Exactly what I meant before.

LilBunnyRabbit

04-Dec-2002, 10:55 PM

Don't worry, I'm arguing with myself at the same time.

Okay, what the hell is that? Of course there was a time when people had no idea that fire could burn them, or that c/d=pi, I'm not stupid. The thing is, you said REFUSE not REFUSED, meaning that there are still people today who believe that. Besides, your examples of "idiots" (who I never acually named) are dead.

If necessary I could probably make quite a convincing argument for the world being flat (actually I did, got me an A in my English Persuasive Writing). You can argue whatever you want, but you can't really call anyone an idiot for having an irrational idea.

Sean O

04-Dec-2002, 11:16 PM

Thats true, I only got mad because the way you said it sounded too sarcastic.

Darzeka

05-Dec-2002, 12:48 PM

I am in the center because there are no ends.
Effectively the boundaries are my horizons - as far as I can see toward any of these horizons.

You can't believe hard or soft. Beleif is. You can think hard that you will move through the wall, you can say with conviction "I will move through the wall" but it still isn't belief. Belief is knowing that if you breathe in air you will continue to live. Or that if you drop something it will fall.

Why is this question pointless?
What have you done that has a point or meaning to it?
Nothing has more value than anything else, no event, word, person or idea. All is equal because everything going on forever means we have nothing to ultimately measure something against.

Only if you place boundaries, rules, point systems and teams will you be able to measure the value of somthing. Basically turning life into a game.
What if the other side breaks rules? Has a different set of rules? Allocates points differently?

After you stop looking for the point of something and stop seeing if the rules apply you will stop playing the game and win by seeing everything as a new experience and enjoying it because of it's uniqueness and your relation to it.

LilBunnyRabbit

05-Dec-2002, 05:27 PM

I am in the center because there are no ends.
Effectively the boundaries are my horizons - as far as I can see toward any of these horizons.

But you can have a centre to an infinite grid. Mathematical co-ordinate systems are based on an infinite grid, which a centre at the origin.

You can't believe hard or soft. Beleif is. You can think hard that you will move through the wall, you can say with conviction "I will move through the wall" but it still isn't belief. Belief is knowing that if you breathe in air you will continue to live. Or that if you drop something it will fall.

But that's knowledge rather than belief, if something's true there's no need to believe in it. I don't need to believe in a car for it to work, it'll be there whether or not I believe in it.

Why is this question pointless?
What have you done that has a point or meaning to it?
Nothing has more value than anything else, no event, word, person or idea. All is equal because everything going on forever means we have nothing to ultimately measure something against.

Or looking at it another way we have everything to measure everything against.

Only if you place boundaries, rules, point systems and teams will you be able to measure the value of somthing. Basically turning life into a game.
What if the other side breaks rules? Has a different set of rules? Allocates points differently?

Unless you know their rules it doesn't matter, you're allocating your own rules, those are the only ones that apply to you.

After you stop looking for the point of something and stop seeing if the rules apply you will stop playing the game and win by seeing everything as a new experience and enjoying it because of it's uniqueness and your relation to it.

Not all games have a goal, look at a group of young children, they play to play rather than to win.

Sean O

05-Dec-2002, 08:10 PM

...Does this sound alot like the matrix to anyone else?

Sean O

05-Dec-2002, 08:15 PM

You can't believe hard or soft. Beleif is. You can think hard that you will move through the wall, you can say with conviction "I will move through the wall" but it still isn't belief. Belief is knowing that if you breathe in air you will continue to live. Or that if you drop something it will fall.

I agree with ckd. I think that belief is the wrong word for this. If you believe, that if you believe that you can walk through the wall, you can, then you should be able to test this theory out. Don't go to fast though!

LilBunnyRabbit

05-Dec-2002, 09:51 PM

...Does this sound alot like the matrix to anyone else?

There's no way to prove that its not. Of course, since it seems to be real, tastes real, sounds real, feels real, looks real, smells real, we may as well assume it is and save ourselves the headaches.

Sean O

05-Dec-2002, 10:53 PM

You can't believe hard or soft. Beleif is. You can think hard that you will move through the wall, you can say with conviction "I will move through the wall" but it still isn't belief.

So what is then? First you said that anything that we believe can happen, will....

Wait, I just got it, but I don't think that it was what you were thinking darzeka.

The law of averages states that anything that can happen, eventually will. For example, one day some friends and I were chucking snowballs at each other. One of my friends and I threw a snowball at each other at the same time, and they collided in midair. The next two did the same thing. Unbelievable, but true.

This is all just a philosophy about confidence. If you believe that you can jump over the creek, then you have a much better chance of doing it than if you didn't believe it. Blah blah blah, this has all been said before.

Existence goes on forever, without end into infinty.
Then no matter what direction I look in then it will keep going.

So therefore I must be in the centre of it.

I am the centre of my existence.
You are the centre of your existence.

There's no way to prove that its not. Of course, since it seems to be real, tastes real, sounds real, feels real, looks real, smells real, we may as well assume it is and save ourselves the headaches.

There we go, like I said before, we can go on argueing about this forever, there are an endless number of responses, examples, and so forth. Can we agree to leave it at the fact that confidence will get you further in life?

Andy Murray

05-Dec-2002, 10:58 PM

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......Snort!......Zzzzzzzzzz !

LilBunnyRabbit

05-Dec-2002, 10:59 PM

That's no fun! :cry:

I wanna debate! Don't make me debate with myself again, it scares people.

Sean O

06-Dec-2002, 01:47 AM

Hey, I',m all for debating, but what do we debate about?

LilBunnyRabbit

06-Dec-2002, 10:32 AM

I know, we've kind of killed that one. Shame really.

johndoch

06-Dec-2002, 10:34 AM

Question: whats faster than the speed of light?

YODA

06-Dec-2002, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by johndoch
Question: whats faster than the speed of light?

A tachyon of course :D

johndoch

06-Dec-2002, 10:45 AM

I thought that tachyons were hypothetical creations that physicists made up to fill the gaps in their equations.

LilBunnyRabbit

06-Dec-2002, 10:53 AM

Yep. Same as photons, atoms, gluons, every physics theory there is. :D All there to fill in the gaps between idealised systems (maths in particular) and reality.

johndoch

06-Dec-2002, 10:56 AM

LOL, Just as I thought, Maths=Physics=Zero.

LilBunnyRabbit

06-Dec-2002, 11:15 AM

Nah, maths and physics are completely different things. You have the real world, then the idealised form of that which is physics, then the abstracted form of that which is physics.

Then of course you have the other sciences like biology and chemistry which are basically physics by another name.

Sean O

07-Dec-2002, 09:34 PM

I'm waiting for darzeka's reply though. Where the hell are ya man?

Spike

07-Dec-2002, 10:24 PM

Question: whats faster than the speed of light?

The speed of bad news, and bistromathics

Darzeka

08-Dec-2002, 07:25 AM

Sorry about the delay - I've been real busy baging mortar, moved about 60 tonne in little over a week - move one 30KG bag 2 metres every 20-40 secs. Then straight to training.

Ok my view on belief. Through experimentation and observation you see things and expect them to happen again next time. Picturing things happening, reasoning that it will happen and knowing you will do something is not quite belief.
Ever tried to do something that you know you can do but just can't do it? Then it will just click and you will do it. This is what I think belief is.
Something hard coded into our minds that fuels thoughts and ideas. Something that you will apply without thinking whether its true - like gravity. You don't think that you may float off the ground when walking one day, you just walk and you stay on the ground.
When you have an idea you create an environment in which it is created - a void that you put stuff into. Your beliefs will put all those concrete facts into play over the idea (gravity, physics, magic, etc, etc).

These things are very hard to make yourself change, I'd say nigh impossible. Normally you won't change them deliberately, after doing something gradually you will begin to think you can do something then bang one day you need to think to do it - it's second nature. Most people don't notice all these little assumptions we make about what really happens - we just expect what we believe to happen.

I liken it to the confidence thing but just powered to the nth degree. You see people that believe they are sexy when they strut around - it never occurs to them that they may not be, they believe, this believe will usually make them sexy to a certain degree.
I also think this has a huge amount to do with luck, people who always expect the worst to happen to them, usually get it. Conversely the people who believe they deserve the best usually get it too - infuratingly sometimes. It is much easier to believe that bad things will happen rather than good.

So basiccaly it think it similar to confidence only harder to achieve and much more powerful.

Just a random thought - My energy is eternal (you cannot create or destroy anything, just change its form) so is existence. Therefore I wa always here, always alive, always dead, I have been everywhere, seen everything, done everything,.... I just can't remeber it so I need to see it all again

LilBunnyRabbit

08-Dec-2002, 04:48 PM

Just a random thought - My energy is eternal (you cannot create or destroy anything, just change its form) so is existence. Therefore I wa always here, always alive, always dead, I have been everywhere, seen everything, done everything,.... I just can't remeber it so I need to see it all again

Well, not quite true. Measured to infinitesimal accuracy the total energy and matter in the universe actually fluctuates randomly, but only by very small amounts.

Sean O

08-Dec-2002, 08:22 PM

True darzeka, belief is more than knowledge in situations like that. At hight jump practice last year I was jumping beautifully until we got to 140cm. I would try again and again but each time the same thing would happen. Then something just clicked and I made it. Too bad at the meet I was up against people who probably taught super mario how to jump :woo:

Darzeka

10-Dec-2002, 06:11 AM

the etent of existence is infinite, you cannot measure how much energy and matter is there,.. it's well an infinite amount.

Matter is only energy moving so slowly it collides with other pieces of energy.
That makes you think if we are moving through what is viewed as matter by something else because we are moving too quickly and that things are moving through us because they are moving faster than us?

big e

10-Dec-2002, 07:52 AM

ok ok ok

has any ever thought of
center of existence could be deep in the center of the earths core
which would mean everything/one on the ground could'nt be further away

any thoughts anyone ? ? ?

YODA

10-Dec-2002, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by big e
ok ok ok

has any ever thought of
center of existence could be deep in the center of the earths core
which would mean everything/one on the ground could'nt be further away

any thoughts anyone ? ? ?

http://www.cea.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ceaweb/images/personal/madferret.jpg

LilBunnyRabbit

10-Dec-2002, 10:18 AM

the etent of existence is infinite, you cannot measure how much energy and matter is there,.. it's well an infinite amount.

Actually they have measured the matter in the universe, and the energy. Its more than they expected, but its not infinite.

has any ever thought of
center of existence could be deep in the center of the earths core
which would mean everything/one on the ground could'nt be further away

Considering all of the movement going on it seems unlikely, but its not quite impossible.

Sean O

10-Dec-2002, 10:28 PM

Don't try to argue physics with ckd, in case you haven't looked under his name, hes a physicist :).

LilBunnyRabbit

10-Dec-2002, 10:35 PM

That reminds me, I'm gonna have to change that. Is this any better?

Sean O

10-Dec-2002, 10:37 PM

There we go. Much more fitting :D.

gingerninja

10-Dec-2002, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Actually they have measured the matter in the universe, and the energy. Its more than they expected, but its not infinite.

Wrong

They have measured what they can see not all matter and even thst had a big fudge factor.

CKD not the only Physicist on MAP

from the worlds laziest PostGrad

LilBunnyRabbit

11-Dec-2002, 12:02 AM

However the fudge factor was not infinitely large, which means that the amount of matter and energy must be measurable, which means it cannot be infinite.

Beh, anyway, I've never liked astrophysics. If you can't test it, what's the point?

Bloody Stephen Hawking.

gingerninja

11-Dec-2002, 12:33 AM

They made it all up so they could sale text books for a £100 a pop anyways

pgm316

11-Dec-2002, 11:56 AM

No your all wrong :D

If the universe goes off infinitely in all directions, then there is no centre! ;)

big e

11-Dec-2002, 12:04 PM

If the universe goes off infinitely in all directions, then there is no centre!

yeah but then you could argue that where ever you are could be the center an when you move to another place that would be the center too

LilBunnyRabbit

11-Dec-2002, 01:04 PM

But since the universe is expanding it cannot be infinite by the normal definition of the term, there must be an edge where there is no more matter beyond it (unless you take one of the astrophysics bestseller theories of repeated big bangs *spit*).

pgm316

11-Dec-2002, 01:21 PM

You could argue the centre moves around with you, but does that really make much sense. I suppose you could say everything is at the centre of its existence.

The universe is expanding, true. Although the nothingness that it occupies goes on forever, so I don’t think there is a centre of that………

LilBunnyRabbit

11-Dec-2002, 01:27 PM

Just because we can't see the edge doesn't mean it goes on forever.

TkdWarrior

11-Dec-2002, 01:34 PM

darn those physicsts :D
-TkdWarrior

johndoch

11-Dec-2002, 01:42 PM

I love physicists they are always right until the next genius comes along. Then they all agree with the new theory and think everyone that believes in the old one are stupid.

PS: The universe is a contracting, flat sphere and the sun is really cold and the earths heat comes solely from its core.

LilBunnyRabbit

11-Dec-2002, 01:51 PM

Nah, we just think that everyone who believed in the old theory was missing evidence. Its only outsiders who think people who believed in models appropriate to the time were stupid.

Incidentally its quite easy to argue that the earth is flat, the sun is a hologram projected above us, and that aliens do/do not exist. You can argue and provide evidence for whatever you want.

johndoch

11-Dec-2002, 01:55 PM

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah, we just think that everyone who believed in the old theory was missing evidence. Its only outsiders who think people who believed in models appropriate to the time were stupid.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

good answer ckd, spoken like a true scientist.

pgm316

11-Dec-2002, 02:05 PM

Quote "Just because we can't see the edge doesn't mean it goes on forever."

True, it doesn't. Doesn't mean it doesn't either ;)

If I had to bet, I'd bet it does go on forever, because how can you have an edge to space?

LilBunnyRabbit

11-Dec-2002, 02:18 PM

An even harder question, how can you have an infinite area when you can't even comprehend what infinity is? The human brain is not designed to understand infinity and so rationalises it as incredibly large. Incredibly large is not infinite, nor is it close enough to infinite that it approximates it.

TkdWarrior

11-Dec-2002, 02:24 PM

<Incredibly large is not infinite, nor is it close enough to infinite that it approximates it.>
*cough**cough* watever guys jimmy gotta point here
man now i understand why i changed my line of work:D ;)
-TkdWarrior-

pgm316

11-Dec-2002, 02:56 PM

Because we can't fully comprehend something doesn't affect it still being that way. We can understand what the principles of infinite are, even though it is pretty hard to get your head round the concept. Incredibily large doesn't really do it justice.

TkdWarrior

11-Dec-2002, 03:20 PM

now this is very very bad...PGM is trying to prove me that wat i did was wrong ??? :D
:mad:
-TkdWarrior-

YODA

11-Dec-2002, 03:37 PM

Actually we ARE the center of the universe.

Everywhere is....

It has been shown that no matter where you are in the universe - things are moving away from you in ALL directions.

I think it was Hubble who 1st discovered this, back in the 1920's - since then it's been confirmed by observation from various probes etc.

One explanation is the theory that matter in the univesre is like the surface of a balloon - if you draw dots on a balloon and then inflate it - every dot is moving away from every other dot .

pgm316

11-Dec-2002, 03:45 PM

I suppose its a matter of trying to work out where the big bang took place. Things are moving away from us, but we're still moving away aswell.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong TKD, I'm sure we're all as right or wrong as each other :D

TkdWarrior

11-Dec-2002, 03:57 PM

<I'm not trying to prove you wrong TKD, I'm sure we're all as right or wrong as each other :D>
ah thnx...i was really very concerned for a second :D

frankly speaking i think hubble bubbles havn't been brusted yet..
they still do that red shifting thingie...
u know there's problem in theory of balloon if u make a dot then those dots will get bigger too...anyone find difference in their hieght/size/watever(except for growing up) well i did :D...
-TkdWarrior-

LilBunnyRabbit

11-Dec-2002, 05:01 PM

The thing that you use to measure will also get bigger of course.

Because we can't fully comprehend something doesn't affect it still being that way. We can understand what the principles of infinite are, even though it is pretty hard to get your head round the concept. Incredibily large doesn't really do it justice.

You can prove something has boundaries, but you can never prove that it is infinite. You can suggest that it is, but unless you spend an infinite amount of time travelling across it to measure it then you cannot prove that it is infinite. All you can say is that as far as we've measured there are no boundaries.

pgm316

11-Dec-2002, 05:43 PM

Very true CKD, suppose all we can say is that from the information we know, we believe it to be infinite?

gingerninja

11-Dec-2002, 06:57 PM

AAAHHH you haven't studied Quantum wells yet, they can have boundaries and be infinite at the same time.

pgm316

11-Dec-2002, 07:18 PM

Yeah, go and study Quantum wells CKD, then you'll know what we're talking about ;)

LilBunnyRabbit

11-Dec-2002, 07:28 PM

But I don't believe it to be infinite.

Bah, quantum theory is just annoying. Especially since as far as all tests have shown it holds through. :(

Would have to be a bloody big well though...

gingerninja

12-Dec-2002, 12:01 AM

Nah Bloody small, especially quantum dot lasers, I had to be an idiot and specialise in lasers, its nothing like star trek!

YODA

12-Dec-2002, 06:43 AM

LOL! This discussion has sure come a long way considering it started with ....

"My friends and I were drunk a couple of nights ago and I had a thought."

LOL!

:p

big e

12-Dec-2002, 08:04 AM

maybe its :
using a boundry of no boundrys
having infinate space as . . . ah . . . nevermind ! ! !

:)

LilBunnyRabbit

12-Dec-2002, 10:29 AM

I knew there was a reason I was planning to go for computational modelling rather than particle physics.

Darzeka

13-Dec-2002, 06:44 AM

You are all still thinking in terms of the universe. I am talking about existence. Existence extends beyond the universe.

The unviverse does end somewhere. How? How is there a boundarie between water and air or water and oil?

There cannot possibly ever be NOTHING, there is a nothingness in space but only if you section off a small part of it. Expand your view and there is things in it - planets, stars, gas, etc. The larger your field of search and the further away you move from it, the more things will be in it, until it gets so dense that it appears to be solid. If a "thing" on a scale to see this "solid universe" as a grain of sand were to touch it, what would happen? would the whole thing move and stay stable or collapse in chaos?

There is no way to create or destroy anything, you merely change its state of existence, the energy that makes up me has been around through eternity, has seen everything, been involved in everything. Why can't I remember this? After seeing everything you would get bored so you change yourself to a state with no knowledge of what has passed, plus you cannot remeber an eternity, our life is probably all we could in our memory until the next shift.

There has never been an original thought, event, person or moment. All has come before, all is now, all will be.

LilBunnyRabbit

13-Dec-2002, 09:09 AM

Nope, you can't say that existence has been around forever or will be. Think about it like this. When the universe appeared (was created, whatever) time also came into existence, so before time came into existence nothing happened. Or everything happened simultaneously, but either way it means that before existence there was no time for anything to come into existence.

There is no way to create or destroy anything, you merely change its state of existence, the energy that makes up me has been around through eternity, has seen everything, been involved in everything.

Yes, and? The matter that makes you up has been around since the beginning too. Why exactly does that mean that your consciousness has been around? No matter what theory of consciousness you take there is no reason or evidence to suggest that you exist before you are born.

There has never been an original thought, event, person or moment. All has come before, all is now, all will be.

Sorry, just can't accept that. We're here now. That's all.

big e

13-Dec-2002, 09:42 AM

i think 1 day that when im ruling the galaxy
i will make a magic rocket that never runs out of fuel an magically gives me food every day an lets me live forever - i will keep flying to the end/or for ever of the galaxy/universe/space what ever
- an then 1 day come back an tell you all the answers for a rediculously huge price - from this i will buy all the planets from the mysterios force that owns it
an then you will all follow me - you WILL be my slaves an you WILL serve me

MuHaHaHaHa ! ! !

get ready to bow to the notorious Big e

pgm316

13-Dec-2002, 10:27 AM

I can't believe there was a time when there was no time!? Erm, I don't think that question even makes sense.......

I don't think our consciousness have been around for ever, their was a point in time when their was "nothing" for them to exist in.

Your right CKD, infinite is hard to get your head around, just thinking that everything has been around for an infinite amount of time or that space has infinite boundaries, it just doesn't make sense to the human brain.

khafra

13-Dec-2002, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by ckdstudent
But since the universe is expanding it cannot be infinite by the normal definition of the term, there must be an edge where there is no more matter beyond it (unless you take one of the astrophysics bestseller theories of repeated big bangs *spit*).

What, you're not a fan of superstring theory? Whyever not?

Darzeka

14-Dec-2002, 01:27 AM

Before the universe began there was simply other things going on. Maybe another universe as we know it, maybe not.

Imagine that our universe is a lolly inside a glass of jelly/jello. To us the edge of that lolly is so far away it is hard to imagine but it isn't all there is. There is jelly around the lolly like there is something else beyond space.

How do you get nothing? remove everything that is there. Where does it go? You have agreed that we cannot create or destroy anything so you cannot remove something from existence, it will just move and change but will still be somewhere. If you create a perfect vacuum almost instantly something will "warp" into the vacuum - my mate is also doing some sciencey thing and reads about these experiments.

As for me being around for all eternity. The energy that makes up my conciousness has been around forever. It will have been in many different places and forms but sometime it will have been me before and so therefore it will have been me before and at sometime has been me everywhere, time has always been here, it just stops everything from happening at the same time at the same place. Existence is infinite, everything is always happening, somewhere every possible thing that could happen is happening.

People used to think the our planet was the center of the universe and the sun revolved around it. Now people think that our universe is the centre of creation and we are why it was made. Sounds a bit like a collective inflated ego doesn't it?

People don't like to think about this because they don't like to feel insignificant. I love it. After realisng that existence just is, without, purpose, meaning, identity or conciousness you can free yourslef to purely enjoy everything that is just because it is and is cosmically beautiful for that reason alone. Ultimately nothing I will ever do will matter beyond How I enjoyed doing it.

I am the center of my existence. Everything extends away from me into eternity, the boundary is eternity. I have always been, I am and I always will be.

We only need to be able to think two things - I am and why?
These two things stem all other thoughts and ideas.

Sean O

14-Dec-2002, 02:23 PM

Darzeka, do you truly believe everything you're saying here?

TkdWarrior

14-Dec-2002, 02:40 PM

Ok... New theory here... which will defy all theroies...
n it's proposed by ur's truly :D
universe is like a ring...
it has an End with no End... :D
always expanding thru the ring ;)
anyone who dares to challege me or my theories will be shot in the head n double shot to make sure all my theories live :D...
Thank You.
-TkdWarrior-

TkdWarrior

14-Dec-2002, 02:44 PM

I am the center of my existence. Everything extends away from me into eternity, the boundary is eternity. I have always been, I am and I always will be.
darn it darekza tell me...r u following one of hindu cults?? :D because after reading some of ur threads in past i think u r very much obsessed with it,....
anyways theres one quote(some religious/spiritual gurus) which is having foggy images in my RAM...
somethine in the line like
"there's a universe in u" or "there's complete universe in human body/mind/spirit"
ur this thread echo's this quote...
i'll rite the exact quote if i get my hands on it..
-TkdWarrior-

Darzeka

15-Dec-2002, 02:56 AM

I believe most of what I am saying is possible. I know I will never be correct and just have fun thinking what may be.

I am not involved in any cult or religion beyond following a few basic Taoist principles.

The longest and most painful death experienced by most people is life.

Is a dream second infinitely longer than a "real second"?
How long is the mind alive after the body dies? (I think its around 6 seconds)
Is there then time enough in this death time to have a lifetime dream?
Is this then all the product of someone dieing?

Why would I not want to believe that everything is possible?
How can there ever be nothing?
Why would existence be only our universe?

If you don't want to think about being an insignificant point of energy then return to your life based around material gain, living in a waking dream. I will experience life and enjoy every moment of it.

big e

16-Dec-2002, 07:35 AM

eggs!!!

Sean O

17-Dec-2002, 10:18 PM

I can respect that darzeka, I also like to think of the things I'll never know. Like the purpose of man's existance. Of course, I've gotten bored with that one, and now I like to ask people what they think the purpose of their existance is. So let's hear some opinions already.

Darzeka

18-Dec-2002, 12:10 PM

Ultimately there is no reason - the beauty of existence.

But I have had some really good ideas on the reason why something would make us.

Perhaps we create a form of energy that these things use for power or food or something

Maybe we are teachers for a school of other consciousnesses and we are showing them possible ways that society could be bad.

We are here killing or holding prisoners, like a prison, from another form of life that our hate and malice in everyday creates a field of energy that they cannot penetrate.

Not many people will really know what they are doing in life if you ask them, most people will be trying to get money, girls, boys, have fun, get a particular possesion, win something, cheat death, help people, become famous, save the world. They will be purely driven to do these things without thinking about why.

I myself just want to experience life and train. All my activities are geared toward this now. My purpose is to be.

pgm316

18-Dec-2002, 12:27 PM

Maybe there's no reason for existence.
Maybe we're just here out of chance.
Maybe theres no fate, no God, nothing else.
Maybe we should just make the most out of the time we have.
Maybe ;)

Sean O

18-Dec-2002, 11:16 PM

Maybe there's no reason for existence.
Maybe we're just here out of chance.
Maybe theres no fate, no God, nothing else.
Maybe we should just make the most out of the time we have.
Maybe Maybe there's no reason for existence.

Thats a little bleak.... come on, rather than thinking you're in the matrix and that you're just livestock for something else, think about what you contribute to the world. Chris rock, for example, believes he was put on this earth to make people laugh. Thats what I'm getting at.

No reason for existance.... psh. :D

Darzeka

21-Dec-2002, 05:25 AM

Maybe we were put on earth as convicts, had our memory wiped and are now the centre of a study of primitive cultures.

There is no reason for us being here. There needs to be something on a bigger scale to us for us to have meaning - basically existence.

Who cares why we are here, lets just be here and experience living.

There is no fate. If there was it is put there by some being that is on a larger scale than us but still equally unimportant.

God is either very dumb or very sadistic. We are either imperfect and he wanted us to live up to his rules or he made us this way delibaerately and put these rules that are against what most of instinctively think to watch how we cope. Evil *******.

Sean O

24-Dec-2002, 06:05 PM

You seem to care about why we're here darzeka, you're the one who keeps bringing up these crazy theories :D.

pgm316

24-Dec-2002, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by Sean O

Thats a little bleak.... come on, rather than thinking you're in the matrix and that you're just livestock for something else, think about what you contribute to the world. Chris rock, for example, believes he was put on this earth to make people laugh. Thats what I'm getting at.

No reason for existance.... psh. :D

I didn't mean to sound bleak at all. Just contemplating there may not be any great plan for us existing. As Darzeka said "Who cares why we are here, lets just be here and experience living." Maybe thats true!

Sean O

24-Dec-2002, 08:58 PM

Thats true, although I gotta say again that darzeka is the one who is asking the big why are we here questions (dont mean to pick on ya man) :)

Mike O'Leary

24-Dec-2002, 10:50 PM

This makes perfect sense. The Idea of being the centre of the universe must be correct. Given that please compare the following theory and since it is correct then the statement made at the beginning of the topic is also correct.

Did you know that heards of caribou are actually dependant on the predator wolf? It Appears that the wolf that follows the heard actually is only able to take down the weak and sick Caribou therefore the predator actually assists in making the heards larger and stronger.

In a similar manner alcohol kills off brain cells. When you drink your slower and weaker brain cells are killed off thereby making you smarter. Ergo.. when you drink you get smarter so this hypothises makes perfect sense and was brilliantly devised in a state of smartness..............

(Well that is what i keep tellin my wife )

Mike
:Angel:

Darzeka

24-Dec-2002, 11:08 PM

I keep bringing up these things so that my mind doesn't just overload.

At the beggining of the year my head was going to fast to keep up with - I had many sleepless nights where my head would just go from one thought to another and back again so fast that it made no sense.
This began to stop when I started training and meditation helps me keep my thoughts under control - somewhat. I have become more relaxed recently and haven't had this problem at all recently.
Thinking these things out helps as well by focusing my thoughts on one subject.

Its also just plain fun though. I don't care why we are here but it would be nice to find out - I love learning meaningless facts and trivia and stuff like that.

The wolf thing is what is wrong with the human race now. We don't cull our species and thus all the weak genes come back into the gene pool and produce weaker people. We spend lots of time helping the people with weaker genetic structures survive and have children.

Did you know that a guy has done some hormone research that allows the body to reproduce cells accurately for longer. In theory with proper treatment a human could live to the age of 600. This is just gonna accelarate the destruction of the planet and cause many more problems than we already have.

Sean O

25-Dec-2002, 01:08 AM

We don't cull our species and thus all the weak genes come back into the gene pool and produce weaker people.

Okay, what if we did cull out the weaker or stupider people, what would we do with them? I'm sure you don't mean that we should kill em off, so really, the human race doesn't have a problem because of the wolf thing.

Did you know that a guy has done some hormone research that allows the body to reproduce cells accurately for longer. In theory with proper treatment a human could live to the age of 600. This is just gonna accelarate the destruction of the planet and cause many more problems than we already have.

Why would this destroy the planet? Why would alot of things destroy the planet? This planet has gone through alot of things, including a few worldwide fires, the ice ages, meteors, etc. It's still here. 600 year old humans aren't going to destroy the world.

Darzeka

29-Dec-2002, 04:48 AM

Ok I meant destroy our world.

There is a finite number of people that the planet can support that will have a good quality of life. Lets have people live to 600. The population wouldn't have much of a death rate anymore so the population would go through the roof. This would also accelarate our approach to armageddon.
armageddon being where Pestilence, famine, war and death have become that much of a problem that the entire world is enveloped with it.

the 4 horsemen are the natural ways of keeping a species or society healthy and within reasonable numbers. All other animals on the planet don't try to thwart these forces but we do. We utilise medicines, try to give food to the famine afflicted areas and stop wars. So if the natural balance is to be kept then these forces need to be stronger to be able to work. So the weather changes to create famines, diseases mutate and become stronger to become plagues and world leaders turn into morons to start wars. We will keep fighting these forces until they become so strong that we cannot do anything anymore and because we are using artificial means not evolution to keep them at bay then they will run over us and all other life that we associate with. This development of 600 year old humans will accelarate us toward this point.

I think we should stop trying to fight the wolves and try to calm down the growth rate of the population until we can cope with it.
But I fear that if this happened now it would just result in an almost complete destruction anyway seeing as how strong the forces are now.

Sean O

02-Jan-2003, 03:08 AM

A line from the matrix that made me think was what agent smith (the one played by hugo weaving) said to morpheus when he was captured. "Blah blah blah Human beings arent actually mammals blah blah they go to an area and multiply until every natural resource is consumed blah blah human beings are a disease." This is true, thats what we all seem to do, but I think thats the way it was supposed to be. I mean, a cat is a great hunter because its senses are very keen and it has incredible reflexes, plus it can move without making a sound. A cat couldn't invent a car, or a TV, or everything we've invented.

I said before that religion is messed up because it doesn't include animals, but now I've changed my mind. Why else would we be made as an all-around species (compared to the other species on earth), but be given this intelligence? Not to bring religion into this, but I think that for whatever reason we were made, it had something to do with that.

We utilise medicines, try to give food to the famine afflicted areas and stop wars.

.......okay whats wrong with curing diseases, giving food to starving kids, preventing *wars* from starting? We've been doing this for a while now, and we're still here, alive and well.

I think we should stop trying to fight the wolves and try to calm down the growth rate of the population until we can cope with it. But I fear that if this happened now it would just result in an almost complete destruction anyway seeing as how strong the forces are now.

As I said before, we're doing fine right now, we don't need to commit genocide to solve anything. As for the forces, theres no four horsemen causing all this, its us. Our immume systems aren't strong enough to fight off cancer, so we start dying. The earth's geography is designed in a way that some areas don't get much water, therefore theres a lack of food. And unfortunately, some people are forced to live there, because if they move they'll be considered aliens. Wars start for pretty stupid reasons, but it's still us that start em.

Spike

03-Jan-2003, 06:22 PM

"I said before that religion is messed up because it doesn't include animals, but now I've changed my mind. Why else would we be made as an all-around species (compared to the other species on earth), but be given this intelligence? Not to bring religion into this, but I think that for whatever reason we were made, it had something to do with that."

Mankind believes himself smarted than, for example, since he has invented so much, like germ warfare, televangelism, football etc.
conversely the dolphin knows himself to be smarter for exactly the same reason.

LilBunnyRabbit

04-Jan-2003, 12:03 AM

I said before that religion is messed up because it doesn't include animals

And God made man overlord of the animals, and told him to go forth and name them that they might serve him. Something like that appears in Genesis anyway. So Christianity and Judaism both include animals, albeit in a small way. I think Islam has a similar thing.

And Spike, there's a new book out with all of his published works, letters, articles, everything. And a large portion of the book he was writing when he died. Its called the Salmon of Doubt.

Sean O

04-Jan-2003, 08:06 PM

Whatever, I meant animals don't appear as anything of much worth.

My point before was that we've been given the abilities we have and have been using and improving them throughout time, and we're not extinct. We don't need to do anything differently.

Spike

05-Jan-2003, 10:11 AM

"And Spike, there's a new book out with all of his published works, letters, articles, everything. And a large portion of the book he was writing when he died. Its called the Salmon of Doubt."

I want to get his biography; written by Neil Gaiman.

"My point before was that we've been given the abilities we have and have been using and improving them throughout time, and we're not extinct. We don't need to do anything differently"

first; improving means we`re changing them, second if we don`t change, we`ll self-destruct a few years down the line

Sean O

05-Jan-2003, 07:07 PM

second if we don`t change, we`ll self-destruct a few years down the line

Why?

YODA

05-Jan-2003, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by Sean O

Why?

Global Warming
Famine
Thermo-nuclear war
Chemical war
Biological war

That's 5 to start with.

Darzeka

06-Jan-2003, 12:56 AM

Just back to the 600 year old people. Oxygen depletion. We are destroying big oxygen producing forests and increasing the population and our birth rate.
If we can get this hormone therapy working then our population will skyrocket. Increasing all the pressures we are exerting on the ecosystem. We also like tearing forests.
In a while there will be no natural CO2 scrubbers left thus no oxygen.

Humans haven't evolved in a long time. We've grown dependant on our technological "advances". We're either gonna have to adapt to fit in better with the ecosystem, change the ecosystem with our technology or we gonna blow ourselves up pretty soon.
World War 3 will actually envelope the entire planet not just some remote battlefield somewhere.

YODA

06-Jan-2003, 06:25 AM

Very well put Darzeka!

Sean O

07-Jan-2003, 09:56 PM

Darzeka said that we try to stop wars, cure diseases and feed hungry people in third world countries like if we keep doing it, we will overpopulate (by the way I agree that we shouldnt try to play god and make ourselves live to 600). I said that we've been doing this for a while, and we're fine. I asked spike why if we don't change, we'll self destruct in a few years, and yoda said famine, war, and global warming.

We already try to stop wars and prevent famine, like we said before, so we shouldn't change anything there. Global warming is a problem, but people are already making efforts to prevent that.

simonlarcombe

08-Jan-2003, 03:57 PM

Do we try to stop wars?

Darzeka

09-Jan-2003, 02:32 AM

only on the surface and it isn't very good at it. Most of the time its mollification that just inflames it more. Then go and sell them more weapons.
And offer to fight for one side, bringing in other superpowers. I'll get my mates on you, yeah well I'll get my cousing on you friends, he'll kick all thier arses - he does kick boxing, and so on and so forth.

big e

09-Jan-2003, 12:24 PM

bringing in other superpowers. I'll get my mates on you, yeah well I'll get my cousing on you friends, he'll kick all thier arses - he does kick boxing,

I Dont care ya know ? ? ?

coz my dads bigger then your dad ! ! !

Mu Ha Ha Ha ! ! !

zen_tiger_claw

18-Mar-2003, 07:49 AM

suffering does not befall him who is withought attachments to names and forms...
allthough this seems irrelivant to the situation it has great meaning. accept the truth that we need war... it is a necessity to life, in which death is alo needed...

Darzeka

19-Mar-2003, 12:26 PM

No we don't need war - we need to work out how we are going to support our expanding population with our planet.

If neccesary we will need to colonise other planets.

We've progressed to a point where a major war will destroy everything. We can only control diseases to a point. Not everyone in the world gets proper nutrition now. We are allowing the old to linger so we don't fear death.

A major conflict now will allow all these factors to run rampant and will almost wipe us out.
We need to concentrate on fixing our current problems not creating more.

pgm316

19-Mar-2003, 01:29 PM

Ok, your against war, but what would be your solution with Saddam? Leave him to continue his human rights atrocities in his own country, surrounding countries, and let him get to the point where he's powerful to do massive damage on a global scale that you so fear?

Just to add the other viewpoint! ;)

Andy Murray

19-Mar-2003, 01:50 PM

" Now why not pull out a 45' and.......

There are no guns allowed on the Island!"

From 'Enter the Dragon'

There will continue to be wars until;

A/ We anihillate ourselves.

B/ Someone learns something from one.

I went to the battlefields of the Somme and Ypres. I saw the infinitesimal Graveyards and listened to the last post at the Menin Gate.

While a lot of criticism is being aimed at the French (someone called them "Cheese eating surrender monkeys" which I thought was hilarious), they have these awful monuments right on their doorstep.

It might seem ok to some people to sack Iraq, because they know they can always turn off the TV if they don't want to see any more. This is a little different though, as the UK and the USA are full of Muslim people, and there are a percentage of them sitting back and waiting for the opportunity to cause mass destruction and suffering of their own.

If Tony Blair can't make the IRA behave, and sort out an issue being bred from father to son over there, then what hope can we possibly have of a nice tidy war with Iraq.

Look at your home town and picture how different life will be when you have Islamic extremists sending Anthrax parcels to your schools, blowing up shopping malls in suicide bombings and poisoning water supplies.

Why?

We are giving them the justification to do so!

Andy Murray

19-Mar-2003, 01:52 PM

As for Saddam!

Kill him and it'll just be someone else next week!

pgm316

19-Mar-2003, 02:12 PM

Bush's argument is to take out Saddam now before he gets to that level were he could create infinitesimal graveyards like the ones at the Somme and Ypres.

Many people agree, other people still wonder why now? Why Iraq?

I still believe Saddam deserves to die, the things he has done is unbelievable. Regardless of whether he's replaced. Although they'd be hard fought to find another as evil so readily!

It often gets accused of being a Muslim vs Christian debate (& oil). Many Muslim countries have supported Saddam, although this opinion is not representative of the oppressed Iraqi people that desperately want him out. It should be remembered that in Yugoslavia it was the Muslims that we’re protected from the Christians and no oil was involved.

Hopefully a democratic government will be put in place with minimal loss of life, including the innocent civilians. USA tells us about the technology and intelligence that they have, so lets see how accurate it can be!

Andy Murray

19-Mar-2003, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by pgm316

1/ Bush's argument is to take out Saddam now before he gets to that level were he could create infinitesimal graveyards like the ones at the Somme and Ypres.

2/ I still believe Saddam deserves to die, the things he has done is unbelievable. Regardless of whether he's replaced. Although they'd be hard fought to find another as evil so readily!

3/ It often gets accused of being a Muslim vs Christian debate (& oil). Many Muslim countries have supported Saddam, although this opinion is not representative of the oppressed Iraqi people that desperately want him out. It should be remembered that in Yugoslavia it was the Muslims that we’re protected from the Christians and no oil was involved.

4/ Hopefully a democratic government will be put in place with minimal loss of life, including the innocent civilians. USA tells us about the technology and intelligence that they have, so lets see how accurate it can be!

1/ He's had that capability for a long time!

2/ There are many people who deserve to die, but who are we to decide this?

3/ It makes interesting reading to look back at the Crusades, and King Richard Lionhearts eventual solution to a very similar problem.

4/ I hope it works out.

Just watch out for that percentage of the population in Blackburn!

pgm316

19-Mar-2003, 02:56 PM

Good points Andy!

I guess the feeling in Blackburn will be more mixed than most.

I've still got mixed feeling about it. Theres a fair argument in favour. But you could come up with the same argument for many countries and you could have come up with them long since. So the question why Iraq? why now? answer is not concrete.

Still looking for 9/11 answers........

Maybe Saddam sealed his fait by having links to that and terrorist organisations.

zen_tiger_claw

20-Mar-2003, 03:36 AM

<darzeka>
it is an inevitabillity...
how will we appreciate peace if no conflict happens? peace would not exist, we would have emotional blankness. think of everyday life and how everything is either peacefull or conflictuous.

Darzeka

20-Mar-2003, 01:18 PM

You measure how peaceful something is by how it compared to how another thing was conflictous.

Look at each moment indivdually without comparison to anytning else and you will find conflict and harmony.

Remove all war and then look at how you would view things. The contrast would be on such a smaller scale but produce many of the same reactions. With no weapons, wars, threat of death something as simple as getting burnt toast for breakfast would seem as bad as a mass global war.

There will always be conflict but it will be your perception that will make it be what it is.

The flipside. This war will seem like a friendly wrestle compared to an interplanetary battle being conducted by some group of things far, far away and so on and so forth ad infintum.

Look at the moment.
Death isn't the end nor is it as bad as it looks
You have eternity in which to exist how can this moment matter?

The wind and water is a good example of conflict and harmony - you feel the wind or the current it seems as one but truly it is a turbulent whirling of energy. The scale is what lets you appreciate the conflict/harmony of it.

Mo Lung

01-Apr-2003, 04:47 AM

Aw, this is disappointing. The thread starts as an interesting existential discussion and I don't have time to read it all now, so I skip to the end and it's about bloody Bush and the war again.

*sigh*

Guess I should go back and read through to see how the divergence occurred. ;)

Sean O

05-Apr-2003, 06:03 AM

Yeah, it's true. Darzeka started out with something that made sense to all of us, but because it had no real practical uses, it strayed to all this.

"Existance goes on forever, it has no beginning and no end. Therefore I must be in the center of my existance, as you are the center of yours."

...rather than talking about Iraq (as if we don't have enough of that already) let's try and interpret this thing.

Mo Lung

05-Apr-2003, 07:40 AM

Well, the first question would be - Does existance go on and on forever, as that seems to be the basis of the quote?

Plus, whether it does or not, what influence does that have on a person and their position within it all?

zen_tiger_claw

06-Apr-2003, 02:53 AM

personally it don't think existance is never-ending.
but look at it this way...
there is 360 degrees in a circle right? if you look around, you are in the middle of that circle.
someone standing next to you is in a completely different reality. they have their own circle.
this means there is billions of different universes in the same place! funny hugh?

Sean O

09-Apr-2003, 04:15 PM

It's hard to say whether existance itself has a beginning or end. But I think that we're on the right track with the individual universe idea.

I think that first we have to look at the difference between existance and life. Existance is immeasurable, but put simply it's just everything that is. Life is anything that takes physical form and has a mind, a personality, and emotions.

Our brain is automatically programmed with primal instincts, like eat, sleep, reproduce, blah blah blah. But those things don't make up a personality, or emotions, or a mind. So where do these things come from?

For all we know, there could be such a thing as a soul. Who knows how it's created, or what it's like being one, or whatever, but maybe before we take physical form, we are granted a soul, which makes up our personality, our emotions, etc.

What does this have to do with the individual universe idea? Well, maybe without knowing it we are in our own universe, in which our soul exists. And for whatever reason, it takes on a physical form and makes us. I'll have to think more on this, so in the mean time I guess this is all I'll say.

Darzeka

12-Apr-2003, 05:37 AM

That extra thing that we are is the self. Separate from mind and body and the thing that is "you".

Life - the change in form of energy.
Trees live, do they show signs of mind and personality.

We measure whether we are "alive" by breath and heart beat. They stop, the body stops moving energy around, death
The same for trees, plants, etc. They stop moving energy around and they die.

So with energy always being in a state of change then everything is alive and its only our awareness that allows us to percieve ourselves as being "alive".

Imagine yourself as a tiny current in a river as it leads to the ocean. You are a point of energy within anincredible vastness. Both the point and vastness have no measurable boundaries, attributes or values.

If there is something here then there will never be a point where there is nothing. Put one grain of sand in a container. Is there something in the container? If you section off a small piece of the container is there nothing within that knowing that there is something next to it? If you draw a boundary around the grain and look out at the emptiness can there really be nothing If the grain is contained within it.

Its all about the scope.

Sean O

15-Apr-2003, 12:06 AM

If there is something here then there will never be a point where there is nothing. Put one grain of sand in a container. Is there something in the container? If you section off a small piece of the container is there nothing within that knowing that there is something next to it? If you draw a boundary around the grain and look out at the emptiness can there really be nothing If the grain is contained within it.

Your post made sense until that lol. Could you explain it more clearly?

pgm316

15-Apr-2003, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Darzeka

We measure whether we are "alive" by breath and heart beat. They stop, the body stops moving energy around, death
The same for trees, plants, etc. They stop moving energy around and they die.

So with energy always being in a state of change then everything is alive and its only our awareness that allows us to percieve ourselves as being "alive".

We are aware when we are awake, less so when asleep, and even less so when unconscious. The level of awareness is controlled by the body. What happens when the body is dead and there's nothing left to support and give energy to our conscious. What will support it then?

What if it fades to nothing, gone from existence for ever as our body stops being "alive".

Thats what worries me :eek:

Darzeka

16-Apr-2003, 12:51 AM

I'm not sure I can explain it.
We decide something is real when we can see visible signs of it.
Its natural we feel this way because how could we know something is there if it never does anything to alert us.
But how could we say there is absolutely nothing there just because we never see or hear anything of it?

My friend said that space is nothing, ergo there are places where there is nothing.
So what are the planets, suns, rocks, etc. Things sitting in nothing.
There end of our scale is an atom. What lies between the electron cloud and the nucleus? between the bits that make up the nucleus?
To us in effect there is no gap and there is just a solid somthing there.

Take our universe to the same scale as an atom. You would see a dense spot of "stuff".

So one of seeing that nothing exists is about the scale of how you look.
Another is accepting that there are forms of energy that we can neither see, feel, hear or touch. Our bodies are in effect just an incredibly dense energy field. Now if there are energy types out there we can't interact with then they could pass through or around us. Could there not be concious things made of these energy states? That see space as an ocean or something similar? as something they can interact with?

If I travelled to the edge our universe and looked and saw nothing extending into infinity and no matter how far I moved I still saw nothing All I would be able to know from this is that there is nothing I can interact with. If I came to a "wall" I would have found something I could interact with. If that was the edge of existence there had to be something on the other side because if I got to the other side even if I was met by "nothing" the wall would still be there, something sitting in the middle of nothing. As long as I exist, whether I am a thought, dream, god, etc. there will never be a place where there is nothing nor an end, I will be able to travel forever and always see different things.

Your "self" that thing that is you is just a collection of energy and as such cannot ever be destroyed. When you die or fade away your energy will just change to something else or move. There is an infinte number of ways this energy could arrange itself and an infinite number of places it could go. You may reincarnate, go off and become a star, you may go to heaven, or anything you could imagine.
Death is not something to be feared becuase eventually your "self" will be recreated as the energy comes together again as you.

MY energy has always been, It has been everywhere, it has done everything, I will always be. My only boundary is infinity, my life expectancy is eternity.

Sean O

21-Apr-2003, 12:30 AM

You know, my friend and I talked about this kinda thing a while ago, and we came up with something that may help to explain this.

I mean, when an egg gets fertilized, then all of our physical attributes are set. But how does a mind get formed? It takes no physical form, and yet somehow, it exists.

See, I think I get what you're saying about all this, although it doesn't really relate to existance going on forever. Maybe this "conciousness" that you're talking about is really the life essence that makes up our minds. Maybe it enters the fetus, and thats what completes us.

zen_tiger_claw

20-Jun-2003, 07:55 AM

that's correct, every side has an opposite. even if it goes into nothingness, it will stil "be" nothing.

LilBunnyRabbit

20-Jun-2003, 08:18 PM

I mean, when an egg gets fertilized, then all of our physical attributes are set. But how does a mind get formed? It takes no physical form, and yet somehow, it exists.

Actually when an egg gets fertilised only the original base template is set, the details change as you develop, and even as you grow older. Your personality is to some degree programmed into your genes, but is also highly changeable over time.

aikiMac

05-Aug-2003, 05:14 AM

Originally posted by Darzeka
My friends and I were drunk a couple of nights ago and I had a thought.

Existence goes on forever, without end into infinty.
Then no matter what direction I look in then it will keep going.

So therefore I must be in the centre of it.

I am the centre of my existence.
You are the centre of your existence.
Ah, but you are trying to hard. It's much easier than that. You are geographic the center of the universe if you want to be. Why? Because mathematically you can put the center of a coordinate system anywhere you want it. Astronomers and astrophysicists do this all day long. Sometimes they put the center of their coordinate system at the center of the earth. Sometimes they put it at the surface of the earth. Sometimes they put the center at the sun. Sometimes they put the center at the moon. Sometimes they put the center ... you get the idea. Yoga teachers and aikido's O'Sensei weren't far off when the said the center of the universe is in your hara. It might just as well be, mathematically.