Is Yang Tai Chi exercise or martial art?

[RAB]

Within the USA Yang style is the most popular among all other forms of tai chi and it is seem as those Yang as little to do with CMA. What are the principles and concepts within this style that are universal among all CMA? How is the training methods preparing an individual for combat?

V/R,

RAB

[Mad Yakker]

Tai Ji Quan is like a walking-stick, u dun have to learn to use it!! Towards combat aspects, the whole body system has to be united and the objective is to knock-out opponent/attacker in life-threatening situation!!

[Kwan Jang]

-I have had the pleasure of studying Tai chi (yang) with Dennis Brown who was the captain of the first American team to visit and demonstrate in manland China. When Dennis went to the Chen village where Tai Chi originated, he asked them what they wanted emphasised back in America. The awnser he got was to let Americans know that Tai Chi Chuan is a combat system.
-It should be noted that the slow relaxed motions used in the Yang system actually have been shown to have not only great benefits for health, but for being extremely smart training for combat as well. Recent research into adrenal stress and it's effects on the mind and body show that due to much greater antagonistic muscle tension and shortening of movements during the adrenal dump, practicing the combat techniques slow and fluid is an excellent method for developing the muscle memory if and when the time comes. Under adrenal stress, many tai chi(Yang) practitioners find that they are often ahead of the game over their more "macho bad a_ _ counterparts from other systems.
-Honestly, my main system is not tai chi and I began it's study mostly as an avenue for a secondary program within our MA school. Since my wife (she's a 3rd dan) was more interested in it initially than I was, I let her teach that program for the most part. Then, after I began to really study on adrenal stress and the value of the Yang methods approach, I began to re-evaluate. Then I learned that many of the applications were very similar in form and function to budo taijitsu(Bujikan ninpo/ninjitsu) which I always had an interest in. Now, I'm fully on board the Tai chi slow train express (LOL).

[Mad Yakker]

Then I learned that many of the applications were very similar in form and function to budo taijitsu(Bujikan ninpo/ninjitsu) which I always had an interest in.
Hmmm... very similiar!! How man?? :confused: Stunned!!

[nzric]

http://www.taijiworld.com/

[RobP]

It can be both or it can be neither.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

Then I learned that many of the applications were very similar in form and function to budo taijitsu(Bujikan ninpo/ninjitsu) which I always had an interest in.
I study both these styles, and I agree with this. There are many similarities; one of the reasons I can study both without getting confused!

[Sub zero]

In my experience CAM and JMA are indredibly similar. even in styles of kung fu and ju jitsu similarites can be found.

[Wanderer]

Both.

Yang Tai Ji may also be used as a moving meditation.

[RAB]

I'm disappointed to here the responds, although, I appreciated everyone's efforts. Yet, it appears that Yang Tai Chi is not martial at all. Sure, we where able to find similiar elements within YTC when compared to CMA, however, we can find similiar elements between dirt and diamonds. This is not to say that YTC is not useful, infact, it serves more benefit today than many CMA. It's popularity and promotion among Health Care specialist is increasing and YTC is available to all persons whether or not one has athletic or limited physical abilities.

Therefore, since the question of training and principles weren't address, how does the Tai Chi community see Yang style. Is it really apart of the Tai Chi family? Is is only part of the Tai Chi family do to name and origin only?

Are there any non-yang people with healthy opinions? Anyone like to attempt to qualify YTC has a martial art again (what makes it martial?)

V/R,

RAB

[Wanderer]

I think that it really depends on your teacher and what forms of Yang TJ you studied.

Some of the routines are "modified" to look good and for exercise.

There are also real combat Yang's forms, too. The secrets are all in learning how to Shi Jin (storing) and Fa Jin (release).

Shi Jin Lu Zhang Gong. Fa Jin Si Fong Jian. (Storing Tai Ji Jin like a extended bow. Release the Jin like an arrow)

Best of luck.

[buddah_belly]

I think that it really depends on your teacher

That's what I was going to say.

[Hugh]

Therefore, since the question of training and principles weren't address, how does the Tai Chi community see Yang style. Is it really apart of the Tai Chi family? Is is only part of the Tai Chi family do to name and origin only?

Are there any non-yang people with healthy opinions? Anyone like to attempt to qualify YTC has a martial art again (what makes it martial?)

V/R,

RAB


Strictly speaking, all styles of tai chi - Chen, Yang, Wu, Sun etc. are equally martially focused in their original form - even though they do vary and have their own characteristics. Therefore, taught in their original form, they should all be considered "martial arts".

The problem is that that the vast majority of people in the West see tai chi more in terms of it's health benefits and not it's martial content. Because of their visual stadiness and slow pace, the Yang and Wu styles are less obviously martial arts that the more rapidly paced of Chen and Sun. It is highly likely that this is the reason why Tai Chi is seen in the West as a meditative discipline and not a martial one .

The problem, therefore, is not that Yang is inherrently different, or less martialy focused than other tai chi styles, but that the vast majority of teachers in the West, having become interested in Tai Chi for meditation rather than self-defense, will treat it as a form of meditation and not bother to teach the martial aspects properly. They will most likely teach a shortend form which will not be physically strenuous or difficult.

If you wish to learn Yang I'd advise you to do as much looking around as possible - don't just go for the first one you come across. Look for the longer forms as they tend to be more martially focused.

[nzric]

This is unbelievable!!

If Yang taiji is not martial, then how come Yang Lu Chan never lost a fight and his family was responsible for training the royal family and bringing tai chi into the curriculum of the Royal Guards?!

Do you honestly think that the royal family, who were able to get the best teachers from the best chinese martial arts, would house and take training from teachers of a system that didn't have any martial use?!

Anyone like to attempt to qualify YTC has a martial art again (what makes it martial?)

What reason do you have to think it's not martial?

[RAB]

I don't think such is the way as the tao. You think little such as the way of your instruction. Therefore, it's no surprise to me that you find it unbelievable. hahaha.

I want to thank everyone for there contributions. I was hoping to hear that there were those that were training in traditional or modern methods. Never-the-less, Kwan was the first to pointed out the principle of "leading attack" which is used in others styles of martial art. And I like Hugh's responds because his thoughts were the same as mine own prior to posting the discussion.

The reason I started the discussion was because I just haven't seen anyone teaching the martial applications, students and teachers included. Some teachers are of high regard here locally in SD as well as in China and seem to not know enough about CMA (in my opinion). Is it just a "Tai Chi Thang"?

Lastly, nzric, I here what you are saying and history is recorded history so I wouldn't attempt to challenge it. But here is my comment to your post:

"Yang Lu Chan never lost a fight and his family was responsible for training the royal family and bringing tai chi into the curriculum of the Royal Guards?!"

Anyone who has never lost a fight must have not been born of parents. I'm sure we all know several moms that were able to whip their kids provided it be neccessary. Secondly, what did Yang Lu Chan teach the Royal Guards....Tai Chi? It's possible. Why doesn't China teach it now as their combat system? Who knows and who care, right:) Anyway, historically, China were warring states and "armed combat" with "massive armies" were common methods.

[nzric]

What I mean is once Yang Luchan finished his training at the Chen village and went to spread tai chi to others, it is well-known that he was deemed "unbeatable"


I don't think such is the way as the tao. You think little such as the way of your instruction.

dude, I won't try to answer that because I have absolutely no idea what you just said.

[RAB]

I'm just joking with you. Just trying to make the discussion provocative.:)

[madfrank]

Well most of the Tai chi teachers ive seen couldnt fight sleep

the 'chuan' in the name is the fighting part so the fact westerners drop it says it all

if you know the fighting applications and the reality of the street you could turn tai chi into a fighting art'


but wafting yer arms around in the park every morning wont prepare you for the cold furious violence of the street

MF

[Mad Yakker]

if you know the fighting applications and the reality of the street you could turn tai chi into a fighting art'


but wafting yer arms around in the park every morning wont prepare you for the cold furious violence of the street

MF

So u got the guts to fight in the street huh!! LOL :D

[nzric]

Don't laugh Mad Yakker. It's a jungle out there. You need the eye of the tiger and the strength of an ox. Only the fittest survive. It's a dog eat dog world and if you don't row your own boat you'll have no corn to harvest in the winter. Goin down in a blaze of glory.

[Hugh]

Don't laugh Mad Yakker. It's a jungle out there. You need the eye of the tiger and the strength of an ox. Only the fittest survive. It's a dog eat dog world and if you don't row your own boat you'll have no corn to harvest in the winter. Goin down in a blaze of glory.


Arggh....too...many.....platitudes, ....fighting ....for....air ;)

[dod]

This is my first post, so Hi all!

I heard that Yang Lu Chan was actually a Chen Taijiquan practitioner, and that it was his grandson Yang Deng Fu who changed the style to 'Yang' taijiquan.

I agree with most of you, there are probably some yang style fighters who are amazing and we know there are many who cannot fight at all.

Regards.

[imawimp]

I agree with most of you, there are probably some yang style fighters who are amazing and we know there are many who cannot fight at all.

Regards.

You could say the same thing about ANY martial art.

It makes me wonder why so many want to hold Tai chi to a higher standard?

[Hugh]

You could say the same thing about ANY martial art.

It makes me wonder why so many want to hold Tai chi to a higher standard?

It's because the vast majority of Tai Chi instructors in the west do not teach the full martial art. Most people in the West see it as a form of medtiation and nothing else. (God, im sick of saying that)

[dashao]

i am happy to say that there is a person in my tai chi class who feels it is too martial arty and who taught it was just for health i wonder where they got that idea from :) they are actually thinking of leaving because its too martial arty not something you hear often when talking about tai chi. finally someone has been enlightened tai chi is a martial art and not some waving your hands around for health stuff
now thats not to say its not healthy


tai chi chuan = tai chi fist a martial art

tai chi = an ancient philosophy older than tai chi chuan

now i could be disgracefully wrong :D
so please correct me

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

i am happy to say that there is a person in my tai chi class who feels it is too martial arty
Probably an indication that you are in a good class! :)

I'd be lost in Tai Chi Chuan without the martial applications. I saw Push Hands used in a sparring situation recently; it was exciting to watch, and I hope to try it out soon!

[wutan]

Hi All,
dod has made a good point about the individual.
It is the individual that makes the art effective or not.

A few of my own observations below:The Sifu/Instructor can impart as much information on the fighting aspects of Tai Chi Chuan (fist) but it is up to the student(s) to make of it what they can.
They must firstly practice regularly,look at various ways of applying the techniques/applications on different people- no two people will fight the same way or even push hands the same way.

If a student does not have the aptitude or the inclination to push themselves in this direction does the instructor ask them to leave the class?
Does he force them to learn (Constructively make them leave the class)?

No,he accepts that they are probably getting some benefit from the other aspects of the art and acknowledges that they will never become a 'complete' tai chi practitioner but this is okay as long as the student recognises this.
On the other hand another student under the same instructor may excel in the Forms,weapons and the martial aspect of the art and be viewed in a completely different light by others from the previous student.
It may be that the instructor holds separate martial classes for those who want to explore this side in a deeper way.

Whichever way one looks at it 'Tai Chi Chuan' is a Chinese martial art and the 'Forms' were born out of the 'martial applications' and not the other way around and therefore if one is only practicing only the form with some basic pushing hands they will never be able to fully use the art as a complete fighting art.
The names of the postures 'Parry and Punch' 'Punch Down' etc indicate their martial relevance.

Street fighting is another story and I suggest that reading Geoff Thompson or Jamie O'Keefe may help to show how we need to adapt both our arts and mindset to be able to cope in this arena.

Mark.

[nzric]

Just a thought about tai chi in particular:

tai chi is designed as a "formless art". Basically, a person who is judged to be a master of tai chi is someone who has "forgotten" the usual, ingrained systems of movements and can react fluidly and in many ways to any attack.

There are "moves" in tai chi, but that's just the starter - the aim should be to have everything subconscious so you create the moves as you react.

For that reason, tai chi is a lifestyle, not just a martial art. It blends with qigong and tai chi "players" are encouraged to do forms every day and integrate tai chi movement (and, often, daoist principles) in everyday life.

A teacher should give you hints of how to progress, and guide you back if you are in the wrong direction, but the reason we don't bow, wear belts or call each other "sifu" is because it's a lifestyle - the area where you do tai chi is part of your life - you don't take off the art when you take off a uniform.

About tai chi being a martial art... if you have the goal of learning a martial art, the teacher should show you the martial side... if you have bad circulations or a joint injury the teacher should show you how to heal yourself...just because a teacher isn't teaching the martial side to his current students doesn't mean he's a bad teacher, or that he doesn't know the martial side.

[moononthewater]

I cannot see the problem here the answer to the question is that it is both. As to if it is an effective martial art you can ask that of all martial arts. The answer to that would be it is not the art but the person who is using it.I wander alot of places and my Tai Chi stands up pretty well.

[madfrank]

I've done it lots kid
you aint qualified to talk about fighting till you've done it
One day you may have that qualification
any time you wanna learn we could meet up

MF

[moononthewater]

I think 25 years doing various martial arts and the odd scrap here and there makes me more than qualified. Where as your comments and threats show that some where along your path you seem to have missed the point. As for calling me a kid i would suggest you find out a little more about me before you make assumptions about who i am or what i can or cannot do. My experiences also allow me to have an opinion on the martial arts even if you do not agree with them.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

Everyone, please, let's keep the tone of the conversation civil in here, OK? There's no need for name-calling of any kind. Thank you for your cooperation.

[HK Pedestrian]

The way I'm taught is that the different outward forms of T'ai Chi and basic pushing hands are just training systems, not the art itself. They are really darn good training systems (if done well), but they are only for conditioning the student to the point that they have the balance and elasticity to get into the freestyle pushing hands, where they start to learn spontaneity and "formlessness" as mentioned above. That can take upwards of 10 years, of course. Then it is safe to start talking about fighting or fencing in earnest. After the student gets into the martial art training, the forms then become a maintenance routine and a list of applications to practise, so I'm not saying that we stop training them, ever.

I've seen some of the modern Yang family's forms, I'm pretty sure Yang Zhenduo has some kung fu. Whether the Yang family still teaches the public martially is a different story. Who knows? :confused: Not me. If there are any of his students out there, maybe they could chime in.

So, I am told that there is one T'ai Chi Ch'uan, and the 5 family styles are 5 different paths to get there. They only differentiated from the original Ch'en style in the last 160 years, so they have some similarities, and many profound differences in approach, if not theory. Even the Ch'en style taught today isn't the same style that was taught to Yang Lu-ch'an, the training systems have all evolved over the years.

In my home town there are two really good schools associated with two different T'ai Chi families, so potential students will ask me about how to choose. I tell them to visit the schools and then decide. Which one do you like the best? Which one looks "coolest" to you? Which one seems to make sense somehow? Do you want to learn self-defense or just health maintenance? There are many intangibles that will affect a decision like that, and I believe that it comes down to fate, we are fated to study under the teachers we choose, for better or worse.

Cheers,
-HKP

[madfrank]

Mat my post wasnt for you it was for mad yakker and his friend who made the childish put dons about my last post.:)
It just came after yers my fault.:)

MF



I think 25 years doing various martial arts and the odd scrap here and there makes me more than qualified. Where as your comments and threats show that some where along your path you seem to have missed the point. As for calling me a kid i would suggest you find out a little more about me before you make assumptions about who i am or what i can or cannot do. My experiences also allow me to have an opinion on the martial arts even if you do not agree with them.

[moononthewater]

In that case i apoligise for jumping to conclusions. I think my energy was still a little high after spending a day training with Terry Wingrove who tends to produce a big buzz in my martial arts. Good training to you.

[madfrank]

In that case i apoligise for jumping to conclusions. I think my energy was still a little high after spending a day training with Terry Wingrove who tends to produce a big buzz in my martial arts. Good training to you.


no problem theres a lot of heat on here.:)

MF

[wingvigor]

I'm disappointed to here the responds, although, I appreciated everyone's efforts. Yet, it appears that Yang Tai Chi is not martial at all. Sure, we where able to find similiar elements within YTC when compared to CMA, however, we can find similiar elements between dirt and diamonds. This is not to say that YTC is not useful, infact, it serves more benefit today than many CMA. It's popularity and promotion among Health Care specialist is increasing and YTC is available to all persons whether or not one has athletic or limited physical abilities.

Therefore, since the question of training and principles weren't address, how does the Tai Chi community see Yang style. Is it really apart of the Tai Chi family? Is is only part of the Tai Chi family do to name and origin only?

Are there any non-yang people with healthy opinions? Anyone like to attempt to qualify YTC has a martial art again (what makes it martial?)

V/R,

RAB

How To Find A Good Tai Chi Teacher
Do not insist on a particular style of Tai Chi (or any other Internal MA). What you need is a good teacher who knows his form and more importantly, is willing to teach you without wasting your time and rob you of your hard earned money. If you insist on a certain form, you may not be able to find a good teacher near you. Firstly, find someone who can discharge you "effortlessly". Effortlessly means discharging you immediately upon contact. If he always wastes a lot of time talking to you after the contact, he is no good because he needs that extra time to align his body according to your body alignment. Also, if he refuses to demonstrate discharges, go find another one. A good teacher does this all the time during every single class. Secondly, tell him clearly that you want to learn the form as a fighting arts. Finally, observe along the way. If he is not teaching you the real thing, go find someone else. For example, if he insists that you have to learn the whole form (all the movements) before teaching you how to execute each move (e.g. directing your opponent's power into the ground), or if he spends too much time on the theory and not on real tough practice, go find someone else as soon as possible. He may be a good fighter but that means nothing if he has no intention to pass his skills onto you.

How To Practice Tai Chi As A Martial Arts. Two ways for Yang style.
The first way is to cultivate Chi and let Chi alone do the magic for you. You cultivate Chi using a relatively simple standing posture. At least 2 hours a day for a couple of years so that every single part of of you body is filled with Chi when you foucs on the stomach. Then you proceed to learn just one or two movements. The requirement is for the Chi to stay inside your body all the time. e.g. if you move your hand too quickly, the Chi in you hand will no longer stay inside your hand. The Chi get left behind! So start doing the movement as slowly as possible! That will take at least another year. Then start pushing hands and learning more movements, etc....

The second way is by the training of special muscle and tendon groups. You teacher will teach you how to align each part of your body in a particular stance, how to move your body/arms/palms/fists with the help of special muscle/tendon/bone groups of your body. e.g. arm movements are controlled mostly by the proper movements of your shoulder blades. So your teacher much teach you how to use and train on those special body parts soon after you join his/her class. Take punching for example, you must practice at least 300 punches with each hand everyday. Imagine you have to align very part of the body properly - your neck, spine, tailbone, thighbone... And you have to extend your shoulder blades as hard and far as possbile, etc during every punch. Not easy at all!!! Your teacher will correct your posture and use of muscle, etc. from time to time, while waiting for your special muscle/tendon groups to develop their power and flexibility... And then 300 blocks a day, 300 pushes a day, etc. using the similar methods until you can execute the movement automatically!

Of course, one can practice both ways at the same time. You definitely need a good teacher to tell you how to do all these.

[wingvigor]

By the way, it is a myth that one need at least 10 years to be a good fighter in Tai Chi. If your teacher told you so, go find another one. Like I said, 300 punches, 300 pushes, 300 blocks, etc. for each hand everyday (at least 2 hours of hard working a day, my friend!) and with your teacher correcting that for your every week, you should be able to walk away with style in a fight with several big and tall opponents after a practice of say just 3 years.

[HK Pedestrian]

WV,

What you say is true, but how many people train that way anymore? Maybe one out of a thousand. Saying it takes ten years for the average student (assuming the teacher has the goods) may be more accurate.

-HKP

[wingvigor]

WV,

What you say is true, but how many people train that way anymore? Maybe one out of a thousand. Saying it takes ten years for the average student (assuming the teacher has the goods) may be more accurate.

-HKP

Yes, you may be right! I think it also depends on your definition of a good fighter.

My teacher teaches on the average of one movement per month. The goal that my teacher set for his students - to be able to walk out in style in a fight with 3-5 opponents in 3 years. So basically we are trained mostly on the offensive side (although most internal martial arts movements can be used both to offense and defense). We must master at least one lethal attack to the front, one to the left, one to the right, one to the top, and one towards the ground. Each attack must be executed effortlessly and yet powerful enough to knock the hell out of our oppenent (well, this must be the case for internal martial arts as the harder you hit, the less powerful it becomes. Internal martial arts are just so intriguing!).

If we focus our time on just a few movements (attacks), it is quite likely that everyone can achieve that goal. Actually I think this is a good way of training. First, we would be more confident as a martial arts partitioner. Second, if we can master the use of power in these 5 directions, learning the other movements would become much easier.

By the way, the Grandmaster (Yang style, can discharge you without moving his body) that taught me qiqong told me that he had never learnt the Tai-Chi form! He practiced Yang style qigong mainly!

[HK Pedestrian]

WV,

This is just a guess, but you sound as if you may come from Yang Sau-chung's lineage. Those guys like to fight, too!

I really like the martial aspect, personally, of T'ai Chi and train it like crazy, but in my experience I am very unusual in doing so even in my own school. My Sifu certainly does emphasise it for those who want it, but there are only a very few of us who want it. So, he works us out pretty regularly, though and I felt like I could fight pretty well after about 5 years. That was almost 15 years ago, though, and now there isn't a whole lot out there that impresses me anymore.

We definitely train for every defensive motion to be offensive and every offensive motion to be defensive simultaneously, no "1, 2" counts in techniques, just "1!" There is incredible speed developed in that process.

My Sifu's uncle, the late Wu Ta-chi, seldom did forms as an adult, only when teaching. His personal training was to wash his clothes every morning (in a horse stance in front of the basin) and then mop the training floor of the school using stepping from the spear forms. That was it, and no one could touch this guy.

Cheers,
-HKP

[madfrank]

By the way, it is a myth that one need at least 10 years to be a good fighter in Tai Chi. If your teacher told you so, go find another one. Like I said, 300 punches, 300 pushes, 300 blocks, etc. for each hand everyday (at least 2 hours of hard working a day, my friend!) and with your teacher correcting that for your every week, you should be able to walk away with style in a fight with several big and tall opponents after a practice of say just 3 years.


And you think pushes and blocks will help you in a real fight against big? tall? opponents.:)

Please dont try this at home.:)

MF

[wingvigor]

WV,

This is just a guess, but you sound as if you may come from Yang Sau-chung's lineage. Those guys like to fight, too!

I really like the martial aspect, personally, of T'ai Chi and train it like crazy, but in my experience I am very unusual in doing so even in my own school. My Sifu certainly does emphasise it for those who want it, but there are only a very few of us who want it. So, he works us out pretty regularly, though and I felt like I could fight pretty well after about 5 years. That was almost 15 years ago, though, and now there isn't a whole lot out there that impresses me anymore.

My Sifu's uncle, the late Wu Ta-chi, seldom did forms as an adult, only when teaching. His personal training was to wash his clothes every morning (in a horse stance in front of the basin) and then mop the training floor of the school using stepping from the spear forms. That was it, and no one could touch this guy.

Cheers,
-HKP

I regret that I don't know much about the history/lineage of the martial arts that I learn. And I don't quite know their names in English! I learnt Yang Tai Chi qiqong from Grandmaster Tsai (蔡松芳) ten years ago. And now I am learning "Six Harmonies Eight Methods" (LHBF).

[wingvigor]

And you think pushes and blocks will help you in a real fight against big? tall? opponents.:)

Please dont try this at home.:)

MF

Madfrank, you are always challenging people here and there without providing related facts, experiences, or even theories. What a pity!

[madfrank]

Do i need to spell out again what happens in real fights in mine and other peoples experiences.

You are wrong.

I have done this before.

You Cant block punches at real fighting distance which is conversation distance isnt physically possible.

there is a little thing called reaction time and by the time your body is ready to react you have been hit.

That is why you train at competition distance and with attacks you know are coming, it is the only way to make blocks work.

Pushes useful for fighting schoolgirls i suppose? Why push someone when you can punch them?

before you say i havent explained things before make sure you know that
I've explained this all before?

MF

[dashao]

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14884&highlight=blocking

[HK Pedestrian]

The style of T'ai Chi Ch'uan that I do doesn't use blocks, actually, we use interceptions. And I can certainly intercept a typical punch at conversation distance. We train, "They don't move, we don't move. They move, we move faster." That has been a T'ai Chi axiom for hundreds of years. One of the main advantages of soft style (real soft style) is incredible speed and the ability to change direction in mid-application. The (to my thinking) s l o w punch of the average fighter is a piece of cake to deal with, I can always hit those guys before they hit me. with a real top notch puncher (very rare), I would hit them at the same time they hit me, at worst. In that case, I would neutralize his strike and trap him into a wrestling match. Snap, crackle, pop!

We have four methods of application:

Fa; a push for sending someone a considerable distance away, characterized as "distance, no impact." Very handy for clearing space around you when dealing with multiple opponents, or pushing opponents into other objects.

Na; manipulating the opponent's body parts into two equal and opposite circles, for locking and breaking joints and bones.

Ta; striking the opponent with a short sharp shock to make them stumble or otherwise interfere with their focus or direction. Characterised as "impact, no distance."

Hua; Neutralizing an incoming force using redirection. The person comes in and lands on nothing, and we can exploit the resulting openings. Very disconcerting for them.

I don't know if any of this qualifies me for fighting girls, but I'll let you guys know if it ever comes up... :love:

-HKP

[wingvigor]

MF, if you think that your opponent is faster and stronger than you are, you'd better run! Never mind your so called punches!

Our kind of pushes could be more powerful than punches, depending on the situations. Esp. when both hands are used. We do not necessarily use our palms in our pushes.

Blocks/interceptions normally do not just go by themselves! We are not passive during a fight! Sometimes we set our opponent up. So their attack are well anticipated. In some movements, a block with one hand increases the power of the attacking hand. That is internal martial arts.

I am not saying that one style of MA is better than others. A martial artist is good if he works hard on the training. There are no short cuts.

[moononthewater]

Hi as far as i have trained trying to block an attack at a very close distance is very difficult in any martial art. The idea of Tai Chi is to get in close and connect with their arms and feel the strike. In this way you can deflect the attack. Any block is a waste of time no matter if you have a good distance or in close much better to move out the way or guide the attack else where. This way you can feel the intention a block will push them away and leave a gap you do not want. As for pushes they are a useful tool to practise structure of a movement with out hitting your partner over and over again. I make it clear that it is easy to turn it in to a punch and will practise it as a punch as well.

[nzric]

Pushes useful for fighting schoolgirls i suppose? Why push someone when you can punch them?

There are no pushes in taiji. There are also no blocks in taiji.

It's one of the fundamental ideas of the style that any defence is also (or is converted immediately into) an attack. That's why anything remotely like a sweep/throw is matched with a chin na (type) technique. Also, the idea of a block, using force on force, is against every principle of the internal arts

The books/magazines that show someone using 'Lu' to sweep an attacker away have absolutely no idea about real applications.

[wingvigor]

1. I mentioned pushes and blocks when I talked about training as a strong fighter in as short a time as possible.
2. We do not limit ourselves on using only the movements from the forms of our style. Otherwise, many good things will pass you by.
3. If we apply the tai-chi methods on the pushes & blocks, they are tai-chi. If we apply the method of hsing-i on the pushes & blocks, they are hsing-i.

So if I tell you now that we are told to practice also 300 kicks a day. Will you go about telling me that that is no internal MA, just because you don't see too many kicking movements?

Well, it is a good exercise to think about how a front kick could be executed using the principle of internal MA and, how kicks could easily be incorporated into most of the movements of the forms.

[HK Pedestrian]

It is a tricky thing, the nomenclature issue. We do moves (interceptions) that look like blocks, perform the function of blocks and even feel like a block to the opponent, but don't "block" using stiffness or tension the way a hard stylist would. Instead, in looseness and coordination, we actually contact, stick to and strike or trap the incoming limb all at once a split second before it strikes us. So, my teachers get miffed if I call them "blocks," because they say it gives the students the wrong idea. Pushes we call pushes, but they are really open hand (wrist, forearm, elbow, shoulder, back, hip, knee, ankle) strikes done at various speeds with various intents, see "Fa, Na, Ta, Hua" in my post above. We don't lock up our shoulders and shove.

I'm sure in Chinese it is a whole different thing, but in English that is how only one school terms things (I'd never claim it to be the absolute rule for all soft style), others' mileage may vary.

[nzric]

Also:

That is why you train at competition distance and with attacks you know are coming, it is the only way to make blocks work.

Anyone who has tried freeform push hands exercises knows that statement is completely wrong.

Practically all the classic taiji texts stress the importance of sticking, following and close quarter training/fighting. While there are some set two-person routines, the goal of that training is always to get to the level where you don't have to follow the normal pattern.

Now shotokan karate on the other hand... ;)

[madfrank]

MF, if you think that your opponent is faster and stronger than you are, you'd better run! Never mind your so called punches!

Our kind of pushes could be more powerful than punches, depending on the situations. Esp. when both hands are used. We do not necessarily use our palms in our pushes.

Blocks/interceptions normally do not just go by themselves! We are not passive during a fight! Sometimes we set our opponent up. So their attack are well anticipated. In some movements, a block with one hand increases the power of the attacking hand. That is internal martial arts.

I am not saying that one style of MA is better than others. A martial artist is good if he works hard on the training. There are no short cuts.

your pushes are more powerful have more concussive effct than punches of course

Blocks interception are you realising the difference between parries and blocks here?:)

Parries(sp) can work from a fence blocks dont!

You set up a person in a street fight to intercept wot hes going to do. this'lll work in a dojo please dont try it in reality.

Well ive been training 20 plus years so im kind of aware of that one

MF

[madfrank]

MF, if you think that your opponent is faster and stronger than you are, you'd better run! Never mind your so called punches!

Our kind of pushes could be more powerful than punches, depending on the situations. Esp. when both hands are used. We do not necessarily use our palms in our pushes.

Blocks/interceptions normally do not just go by themselves! We are not passive during a fight! Sometimes we set our opponent up. So their attack are well anticipated. In some movements, a block with one hand increases the power of the attacking hand. That is internal martial arts.

I am not saying that one style of MA is better than others. A martial artist is good if he works hard on the training. There are no short cuts.



Youve never been there have you?:)

and its easy to keep implying im soft or frightened over the net from china grow up.

and what do you mean when you say my punches are 'so calles punches'

MF

[madfrank]

There are no pushes in taiji. There are also no blocks in taiji.

It's one of the fundamental ideas of the style that any defence is also (or is converted immediately into) an attack. That's why anything remotely like a sweep/throw is matched with a chin na (type) technique. Also, the idea of a block, using force on force, is against every principle of the internal arts

The books/magazines that show someone using 'Lu' to sweep an attacker away have absolutely no idea about real applications.

Duh i know this
it wasnt me who said there were
please read and try to understand the posts before you correct them.:)
MF

[madfrank]

Also:



Anyone who has tried freeform push hands exercises knows that statement is completely wrong.

Practically all the classic taiji texts stress the importance of sticking, following and close quarter training/fighting. While there are some set two-person routines, the goal of that training is always to get to the level where you don't have to follow the normal pattern.

Now shotokan karate on the other hand... ;)


Anyone who read your previous post would realise youre completely wrong

you said in your last post there are no blocks as anyone whose done real tai chi knows now your argueing saying it works in tai chi training :)

MF

[dashao]

frank 20 years thats a long time what style/s have you trained in? have you tryed wing chun yet? i dont practice it personally but am aware that they fight at "conversation distance" .

[nzric]

you said in your last post there are no blocks as anyone whose done real tai chi knows now your argueing saying it works in tai chi training

I never did and I never would say there are blocks in taiji.

If the teachers and the classics show us anything, it's that intercepting an attack is only the very beginning of the movement. To stick and follow someone (and their intention) is to turn their attack against them, not to block and make a separate strike. That's a waste of your and their energy and against every internal principle.

Try something called push hands (tui shou) if you don't believe me.

[madfrank]

Yup tried WC didnt like it

a lot of my friends have trained longer than 20 years there is a 10th dan jujitsu guy in my home town who has been training bout 60 years so im a pup to him

MF

[Sphyerion]

you know what I find amusing? This thread is mostly a series of posts based on misunderstandings of misread posts and a compounding effect of unwilling to open the mind and listen or to even read what someone said before commenting.

[wingvigor]

Go try "rubbing" your hands together until they heated up a little bit and smell them. Do you notice any difference doing that before and after practicing chi-qong ???

Is that related to Chi ???

[nzric]

Go try "rubbing" your hands together until they heated up a little bit and smell them.
You'll go blind

[wingvigor]

Go try "rubbing" your hands together until they heated up a little bit and smell them. Do you notice any difference doing that before and after practicing chi-qong ???

Is that related to Chi ???
Oops... wrong thread... Sorry!

[HK Pedestrian]

One of the last things I ever want to hear is is someone saying to me, "Hey man, smell my finger!" :eek:

[madfrank]

or pull my finger

MF

[GhostRider]

Is there a specific type of attacker or situations that Tai Chi (especially Yang style) works best or better against? Is it truly that adaptable that it rests with the practioner to define its limits as a self-defence / combatve art? I have a few questions as I'm considering Tai Chi as an art I'd like to learn, here are my main questions...

a.) In Ninjutsu at least the Taijutsu part of it, you learn to utilize the whole body in movement, both in attacking and recieving (defending), does Tai Chi as a martial art teach me to move in such ways? In short, is there any tumbling, recovery from falls training, moving with an attacker?

b.) As far as ranges of attack and defence, for Tai Chi, what are they? (for example) Long to medium on attack and short to medium range on defence? In short, could I use this art in a crowded alley, a restaurant bathroom, an aisle in a airplane?

c.) How does Tai Chi as a defence deal with a Brock Lessnar type of attacker? A large, aggresive, experianced, tolerant of pain sort of brute, a tank in other words? And does it take more than four years to get this good at it?

d.) What is in my aresenal of attacks and defences? Not the whole list as that would likely be too damn long but in short, are knees, elbows, head butts, foot sweeps, hand strikes (knife edge or open palm strikes?) etc... utilized in this martial art?

I hope my questions are not seen as challenges but merely questions from someone who is earnestly seeking true information. I thank all who answer ahead of time, thank you... :D

[wutan]

Hi Ghostrider,
I practice Wudang Tai Chi based on Wu style.
It is a highly practical style and a student can take the art as far as they want to in terms of practising just for health or taking the art to weapon forms and the martial side which cannot and should not be a seperate part of the art.
In answer to your questions.
a.) In Ninjutsu at least the Taijutsu part of it, you learn to utilize the whole body in movement, both in attacking and recieving (defending), does Tai Chi as a martial art teach me to move in such ways? In short, is there any tumbling, recovery from falls training, moving with an attacker?
The whole body should move as one unit and this is one of the main principles of Tai Chi.One should move with the attacker and blend with their move and ultimately lead them into 'The Void'.
Some schools may practise break falls as part of the art but these are not usually included in the tai chi syllabus.
b.) As far as ranges of attack and defence, for Tai Chi, what are they? (for example) Long to medium on attack and short to medium range on defence? In short, could I use this art in a crowded alley, a restaurant bathroom, an aisle in a airplane?
Tai Chi in general is used as a short range art and the techniques could be used in a tight space if required.
One must bear in mind that the 'Form' was born from the techniques and not the other way around and that the main thing to execute in the art is the principles of yin and yang-This applies very much to the function of the applications otherwise we would end up with an art that resembled an external art.
c.) How does Tai Chi as a defence deal with a Brock Lessnar type of attacker? A large, aggresive, experianced, tolerant of pain sort of brute, a tank in other words? And does it take more than four years to get this good at it?
Good question!
It really depends on the size and build of the person using the art.
If you have a 'Tank' of a person executing the techniques then they will probably do pretty well against another 'Tank'.
I'm a pretty small guy and do not weigh a lot and therefore I need to train with bigger partners to get a feel for fighting the larger person.
Force against force does not work and is against Tai Chi principles.
I would have to re-think and apply a different mind set to dealing with a bigger attacker and often we do not get much time to think about this if an attacker is suddenly on you.
However if the target presents itself I would personally punch/strike/Kick to the groin,neck and eyes to gain an advantage.
Or pick something up and hit them with the object-This is where training in weapon forms comes into its own.
My moves would have to have power and speed and if possible I would employ the evasive footwork trained in the style that I practise.
A well known maxim in tai chi is 'repelling a 1000 pounds with 4 ounces' which is easy to say and bloody difficult to do!
d.) What is in my aresenal of attacks and defences? Not the whole list as that would likely be too damn long but in short, are knees, elbows, head butts, foot sweeps, hand strikes (knife edge or open palm strikes?) etc... utilized in this martial art?
They are all utilised in the art.
If they are not used in the particular style that you may end up practising then add them in!
But remember anything that you add to your arsenal make sure that you use the tai chi principles when applying them.

The answers are not exhaustive and much more could be added but I ain't writing a book!
You may have trouble finding a teacher who has the ability to pass on the complete art to you and you really must ask yourself why you want to change/augment your current art and change to Tai Chi Chuan.

Please email again if any queries on the above,

Regards,

Wutan/Mark.

[GhostRider]

That was very, VERY informative. Thanks!!! You are a true e-angel :Angel: . Now, done with the compliments on with the comments... :p

As far as my size, I'm no Brock Lessnar myself, but I'm inbetween as I am a hair over six feet and somewhat heavy set as I used to be quite athletic. But I asked that question not as ploy of any kind but merely because I actually face those opponents usually. I don't know what to say about it, it's weird, but that's the way it goes. And I asked the question about ranges since a determined attacker is not going to attack you where it's conveniant for you, it'll be usually a time of their choosing. So that's why I used the bathroom stall, the airplane isle, and the crowded alley as an example. But you answered all my questions brilliantly and I again thank you.

One of the reasons I look to Tai Chi is that it is one of those arts that can change and adapt with you as you go on in life. It is so full of challenges and new skills and relearning to reuse old skills in new ways type-of-art that it seems I could only get better and more refined within the art, a highly attractive prospect. As well Tai Chi has so many intrinsic and external health benifits that it's almost (in my eyes) like the Multi-Vitamin of martial arts.

Now the only problem (if I choose Tai Chi) is to find a good teacher. Not always easy, even in more widespread arts. I guess the only thing going against Tai Chi in the competition against Aikido and Ninjutsu (which are the other arts I'm considering) as a good, life-long martial art is that it isn't always easy or conveniant to find a good Tai Chi instructor that teaches martial as well as the health benifits with the art. But that remains to be proven wrong and so I still search.

Again, a very thorough response, thanks. :cool:

[nzric]

a.) In short, is there any tumbling, recovery from falls training, moving with an attacker?
Yes, as Wutan said, one of the most important principles of taiji is to move with the attacker, to flow with/around their attack. But taiji is a standing art, and there are little or no traditional tumbling or ground fighting methods taught in standard forms.

b.) In short, could I use this art in a crowded alley, a restaurant bathroom, an aisle in a airplane?
taiji is a responsive art. it was designed for close quarters fighting. basically, most strikes are made at a small distance to gain maximum power. One of the sayings of taiji is "if the opponent doesn't move, I don't move. If the opponent attacks, I strike first". There are many quick stepping/attacking methods taught that allows you to close a distance very quickly and get to taiji fighting range, which is the range of a "real" fight (i.e. up close and personal, not competition distance)

c.) A large, aggresive, experianced, tolerant of pain sort of brute, a tank in other words?
Taiji never uses "force against force", so it is effective against a stronger opponent. Also, most taiji attacks start or end with strikes to the face and (especially) neck, which is vulnerable no matter how large you are.

d.) are knees, elbows, head butts, foot sweeps, hand strikes (knife edge or open palm strikes?) etc... utilized in this martial art?
yes, all of the above. but usually you will attack with more than one part of your body at once (e.g. foot sweep and elbow, etc.) to make the most of the attack.

[GhostRider]

Man, this is great input, seriously... it's making my decision both tougher and easier at the same time...ouch! :p Tai Chi sounds like a great art to take, one that can ride with me till they spread my ashes on Mars, that's very cool. :cool:
Just so everyone doesn't get the wrong impression, I'm not violent, nor do I look for fights, I try to be aware of my environment (I've worked in a Super Max Prison before and as a doorman in College). I'm mindful of what I say and the body languages given off by those around me and my impression (intended or not) on others most of the time. I'm not perfect in those areas but I try. It's just that I end up in either totally great situations with people, or real crappy ones, maybe it's my cologne... :D Either way, it's led to some vicious fights on my part and that's why asked about the close quarters fighting and handling a tank of a man. Thanks for the input, I'll sort through all this and let you know when the time comes of what art (out of Aikido, Ninjutsu and Tai Chi) I've choosen. Maybe I should just try all three out for a few months when I get back to training and then make the decision.

Again, thanks for the help.

[ivy]

Now some place they tell you they teach Yang Taiji, but then all they teach you is the 24 or 48 or even the 104 yang Taiji form, then you are learning the contemparory new young taiji which is created specifically for exercising only :)

I am a firm believer that all traditional Taiji are martial arts!

but now a days the slow element has been emphasized so much that especially for those who are practising yang taiji, does the forms only, and practising the slowness only. But in fact in Taiji training, one should do the forms to practice your concentration, and your body co-ordination, but also very important is to practice "fa jin", (normally done with a thick bomboo pole), and push hands.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

GhostRider, I don't know if you'll havethe opportunity to take more than one style, but you might consider it. I study Ninjutsu and Tai Chi Chuan, and I find the two go very well together.

[xingyiboxer]

Now some place they tell you they teach Yang Taiji, but then all they teach you is the 24 or 48 or even the 104 yang Taiji form, then you are learning the contemparory new young taiji which is created specifically for exercising only :)

I am a firm believer that all traditional Taiji are martial arts!

but now a days the slow element has been emphasized so much that especially for those who are practising yang taiji, does the forms only, and practising the slowness only. But in fact in Taiji training, one should do the forms to practice your concentration, and your body co-ordination, but also very important is to practice "fa jin", (normally done with a thick bomboo pole), and push hands.

Does the Yang family Grandson Yang Jun teach fighting taiji or does he only teach the exercise form?

I got kicked off the Yang family board for asking if he teaches exercise only, because all the other teachers I've met from China itself who have immigrated recently and grew up post-revolution don't teach fighting.

So I really want to know, does this guy Yang Jun teach fighting? Because someone that I know who has been there for 8+ months hasn't seen any or heard of any.

[nzric]

Hit him and find out urself?? :D

[xingyiboxer]

Yeah, right. Can't hit him.

Can't walk in there, say, "I challenge you." This is the modern era. LOL

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

Yeah, right. Can't hit him.
Have you ever seen him in action? I doubt any of us could even get near him! ;)

[xingyiboxer]

Never seen him in action, which is why I'm asking if anybody has.

A guy that I know has been in his form class for like 8 months now, and hasn't seen him do anything beyond teaching forms.

Is the guy good?

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

Never seen him in action, which is why I'm asking if anybody has.

A guy that I know has been in his form class for like 8 months now, and hasn't seen him do anything beyond teaching forms.

Is the guy good?
My school sponsored a seminar given by him (I attended all three days). He is beyond good. We went through the entire long form, but he demonstrated martial applications all through the seminar -- he had my teacher flying across the room!

[cybermonk]

A few suggestions: A true traditional tai chi system takes from 8-10 years to be able to use it with effective martial application, most schools where they teach tai chi teach it only for excersise and do not believe in its martial applications you may also want to do some research as some tai chi styles have been altered by the people who inherited them in order to fit their physical attributes, I remember reading of someone who inherited a tai chi style and over the years became very overweight and could not do some of the techniques so he change the style and it became near close to useless. If you want to learn tai chi for self defense be ready to put many years into it and also you should look at what you are being taught, a good sign of martial tai chi is if the sifu incorporates push hands excersises and internal strength excersises in your training. These are usually implemented after you know the basic forms but every sifu is different so you should ask them about it. Tai Chi training without push hands and internal training is not geared towards making you a warrior, its geared more towards excersise.

[nzric]

If a teacher isn't able to teach at least the basics of freestyle push hands, san sao and da lu, there's no way they can pretend to teach the martial side of tai chi.

[xingyiboxer]

But it seems that since TCC has fallen so much out of use as martial art that instead of calling it TCC (grand ultimate fist or whatever), they should give it another name.

Like Chen Village Boxing or something like that.

Because it sure doesn't seem to be TCC anymore.

[oldyangtaiji]

Do not confuse the »Tai Chi Exercise« and »Taiji Quan«! :D Chinese government made a »Simplified« (24 postures)and »Standard« (88 postures) Taijiquan and others forms (48 postures, 42 postures,..) as exercises for chinese people. :Angel: They are not a martial art but exercises that was developed from a martial art! :woo:

The TJQ as a martial art was preserved only by the »traditional/ortodox« (Yang) lineages. Only few disciples of Yang Cheng Fu transmited the Yang TJQ martial art aspect, the main disciples were: Fu Zhong Wen, Chen Wei Ming, Yang Sau Chung and Tung Ying Chieh. :love:

xingyiboxer - Yang family Grandson Yang Jun teach also TJQ fighting applications. As I know he shows the martial applications of the postures, but the fighting is not practiced. I don't know why the Yang family (Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Zhen Guo) teach the TJQ mainly as a health exercise? :confused: Some said that they didn't studied enought with their father and the didn't learned the whole martial art and the only »son/disciple« of YCF is Yang Sau Chung. :cry:

TJQ is stil a grand ultimate fist, but have I said the »Tai Chi« exercise is not Taijiquan! :love:

[RobP]

"I don't know why the Yang family (Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Zhen Guo) teach the TJQ mainly as a health exercise? Some said that they didn't studied enought with their father and the didn't learned the whole martial art and the only »son/disciple« of YCF is Yang Sau Chung."

Well YZD was very young when his father died. And AFAIK there was a lot of government pressureon him to teach a certain way.

YSC of course got out to Hong Kong. But how much he had, or more relevant how much he decided to teach isopen to question.

[oldyangtaiji]

Today the main Yang family master for the TJQ spreading is YZD (with YJ). The TJQ style of others two his brothers (YZJ and YZG) is almost the same. My opinion is that there is more "martial art" outside the Yang family than inside it. Yes, the Yang family style has some martial art inside but too little to be a martial art - more than the Standard and Simplified Taijiquan, but less than others "traditional/ortodox" lineages (outside the Yang family): Fu (Zhong Wen), Tung (Ying Chieh), Yang (Sau Chung). Maybe only the daughters of YSC (inside the Yang family) are preserving the Yang (Cheng Fu) Style.

YSC teached the TJQ only at his school (I think that it was in Hong Kong) and he was not interested for spreading the TJQ to the world. So he had only few disceples and also his disceples do not teach the TJQ too openly. Maybe only Vincent Chu are teaching enought openly of the YSC linesges!

Also are very good for the preserving of the martial arts of Yang Sytle Taijiquan the lineages that are teaching the Sao Shou Form (Two-Person Fighting Form): Tian Zhao Lin, Hsiung Yang Ho, Chang Yiu Chun (?) and (of course) Yang Sau Chung.

[gt3]

I have books with photographs of Yang Cheng-Fu performing the martial applications of his Yang style form on people. Yang Cheng-Fu also learned the art from his family who taught only the real martial arts focused forms, however Yang Cheng-Fu also changed the form to be easier for the masses to learn. Then you take Cheng Man Ching, who was a student of Yang Cheng-Fu, who took that already modified form and modifed it even more and shortened it down to 37 moves. Since they both still called it "yang style" people get confused! The problem here is that they're really nested styles (styles within styles):

1) Yang Lu Chan Yang style (100% martial)
2) Yang Cheng Fu Yang style (50% martial)
3) Cheng Man Ching Yang style (0% martial)

Hence the demise of tai chi chuan (yang style): http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/demise.html

Yang Cheng Fu himself said that if anyone were to modify the form anymore than he already has then it would ruin it, and people tried and prooved it.

The Yang Lu Chan form is still taught, by erle montaigue and i'm not sure who else. But even erle who favors the YLC form says you should learn the YCF form first. Remember a large percent of sucessful fighting ability is in your own physical/mental attributes, not just technique, and the YCF form is a great foundation for this regardless if people think its watered down or not.

If you don't trust that the yang lu chan form being taught is 'authentic' then maybe go head and learn chen or sun style tai chi, but its still a good idea to learn the yang cheng fu long form regardless. It might just be me but i think health/happiness is far more important than fighting skills. Health is a constantly important thing and you may only get in one or two fights in your lifetime. Of course, self defense these days usually means combatting stress and fatigue, the YCF form in this sense can be considered one of the most EFFECTIVE forms of all time. Also never forget that above all tai chi is a "training method" you're moving slow in order to train your muscles to fire in the proper sequence and with supreme balance, not to mention training the mind to be calm, clear and alert, this mental aspect is MORE important than physical training both in daily life and in fighting. The YCF form is nothing but useful.

You have to really decide if your goal is to become a great fighter or to simply learn an entire 'art form' If you're goin to learn an art form you need to have the complete curriculum. IMHO learning tai chi soley for self defense is kinda silly because it takes at least a decade to become decent at fighting with it and the only logical reason you'd take this long route is if you planned on fightin other internal martial artists, but why would you ever do that? by that level of training you'd be one mellow, peaceful dood. If you just wanna learn to "kick ass" then learn some muay thai and grappling.

The funny thing is most people who get into the martial arts originally just want to learn to be a master and kick some ass, its all ego based then, BUT by the time they reach that point of mastery (if ever) they have lost their desire to fulfill their ego's! Thats the beauty of the martial arts, you end up learning whats imporant and it attracts people who really need a change

[oldyangtaiji]

The Erle's skill is not equivalent to even one finger of Chen Man Ching! :woo: CMC was one of the best Yang Style masters (surely one of the top 20 ever), meanwhile EM is not known if he is in the top 100! :love:
Yang Cheng Fu was a martial artist and he was one of the best Yang Style masters (surely on of the top 5 ever). :Angel: He didn't watered down Taijiquan how some unjustifiedly affirm, but his "authentic" Yang Taijiquan was (and is) a Martial Art and not a health exercise (when we doing the form we must imagine how we fight with an opponent and the movements must be martialy applicable). :)

[gt3]

In many ways we're all accused of doing that which we argue against.. taking only what we've heard and assuming its true and spreading the information around so that it goes from Truth-to-WTF.

I have never met YLC or YCF or CMC so anything I say about them i know could be true, partly true, or totally false. Hopefully most people will remember this when they hear or speak of things they truely don't know about. The true "watered-down" things are the stories we tell!

It is our responsibility to transmit things as accurately and unbiasedly as possible so that future generations can get the truth and we're lucky enough that its not some 'ancient chinese secret' anymore and we have the mediums for which to record the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

to know is to know you don't know

[xingyiboxer]

The greater problem is that people get all wrapped up in a lot of things about the martial arts.

They elevate things way beyond what they are, and get wrapped up in the myths surrounding martial arts rather than actually practicing.

They give teachers much more credence than they actually deserve. Teachers are just martial arts practitioners and nothing more.

So there are a lot of people who say you have to wait lots of years, assign these Yang guys much more credence as martial artists than they deserve based on myths and hype.

Does it really work? Can you defend yourself with taiji? Can you actually win a fight with taiji? That's what's important, not your lineage or whatever.

Too few people these days actually fight in chinese martial arts and go to tournaments, etc. Too few teachers practice applications in realistic scenarios. That's the bigger problem.

You hardly ever run into those types of issues with other martial arts. Judo, jujitsu, karate, etc., most peole are always practicing with other people, sparring, and testing their skills.

Whatever. This whole debate is tiring. Making people jump through hoops to get to the real applications of their martial art is a joke.

[gt3]

Lineage isnt the most important thing when it comes down to your own skill, which is the ulimate importance, however it doesn't mean its completely unimportant. It's still important to respect the creators of these arts who spent lifetimes devoted to them. For without them we wouldn't have it. People do this with a lot of things, most american's dont know the history of almost anything important to them like holiday meanings, founding fathers' names, even in the computer world most people don't know the genius men who created half of the stuff they use everyday, and this was all THIS century. It's kind of selfish to abandon the past. But we also live in a time when people don't respect senior members of their own family, we just throw them in 'homes' and consider them useless. Put yourself in their shoes. Now of course obsessing over lineage and using it as a crutch to not practice is stupid, of course. But again we must seek balance in all things.

Theres also a moral issue here. Today people don't get in real fights a millionth as much as they did 100+ years ago. Health is more important to people than self defense these days. Self defense is still a good thing to know of course, for those rare occasions and for your own confidence.

The creator of the Sun style of taiji, who was a great fighter, wouldn't teach anyone who came to him wanting to learn how to fight! He said "if you want to fight, go get a gun".

The fact is competitions have rules, even the "reality" ones like the UFC. such as not being able to strike the back of the head, bite, eye gouge, purposely hit the groin.. Taiji fighters dont have rules and ultimately they don't have techniques, they fight more like animals, animals don't have techniques. Taiji fighters also ONLY defend, they never attack someone first. Its pure self defense. So all these people who train (in their schools) to become good fighters are kind of a joke because they're not actually going out and fighting, NOT THAT THEY SHOULD BE. Martial arts were invented by pragmatic men who knew they'd have to defend themselves all of the time so the martial arts aspect was the most important.

But "martial arts" means more than just fighting. It's a philosophy, an exercise, an art, a meditation and a way of life. Different people take different meanings out of it. Some take all the meanings and some don't get any of the meanings and end up "brawlers" purposely getting into fights in mixed martial arts competitions and in real life. But thats ego related.

Even if you only practice taiji with "exercise" in mind thats totally fine, because its your choice and you're still getting benefits. Theres room for purists and "new agers" because if you think about it, most people these days get into the martial arts for seemingly "silly" reasons at first. They watch movies like "Blood sport" or something and think they're going to learn to break bricks and enter kumites, but thats sometimes a good thing because it motivates them to try martial arts, then when they see what they're really about they end up liking it. For some reason "flash" draws people in who otherwise might not have been drawn in. This is also apparrent in the computer "hacker" community. Most people saw the majorly fictional movie "hackers" and thought it'd be cool, but once they found out what hacking really is (tedius and mostly boring computer programming) they either quit, converted to the truth or remained in the fantasy world. The point is a lot of them did convert so its not a bad thing that we have people ending up at the truth via a "silly" initiation.

[xingyiboxer]

You got that right. Taiji and its ilk take way too much time ... damn those guys must have spent all day training in the old days.

[HK Pedestrian]

The old T'ai Chi family members would start training age 6 or so and train every day all day for the next 20 years, then they would teach. For them, it was a full time job. The living members of the Chen, Yang and Wu families had to learn that way, too. My Sifu is Eddie Wu, the great grandson of Wu Chien-ch'uan. He is the oldest son of the oldest son of the oldest son of Wu Chien-ch'uan, to boot. They were really hard on him as a kid, if you were to train a kid that way in the West today, you would be put in jail for child abuse. The good news is that nobody can touch him, martially. It is in his bones. Also, he will be just as good a fighter (if not better) in his 60s and 70s as he is now. Not many other styles can promise that! When I see some Western hack who started when they were 40 and trained a couple hours a week for 5 years calling themselves a "master" it makes me laugh. So, yeah, real T'ai Chi takes a long time to learn (if you even can learn it), but it has some advantages that make it worthwhile to some of us.

BTW, there are instances where you have to attack first with T'ai Chi. Say the other guy starts to pull a weapon, I'm not going to give him the time to use it if I can stop him first. Also, suppose a pedophile is pulling a little kid into their car, or a crack head is stealing an old lady's purse, or a redneck biker is slapping a defenceless woman around... In those sorts of instances sometimes you have to take the initiative. We train interventions for stopping opponents cold, even if they aren't attacking us.

[gt3]

TW, there are instances where you have to attack first with T'ai Chi. Say the other guy starts to pull a weapon, I'm not going to give him the time to use it if I can stop him first. Also, suppose a pedophile is pulling a little kid into their car, or a crack head is stealing an old lady's purse, or a redneck biker is slapping a defenceless woman around... In those sorts of instances sometimes you have to take the initiative. We train interventions for stopping opponents cold, even if they aren't attacking us.

Of course! but those instances are considered attacking, its the "intent". Taiji is about 'doing onto others before they do it to you', but never starting a fight or initializing it in anyway. This really requires true courage and ego control

[nzric]

I agree with that. In all those examples, the attack has been made by the other person - not directed at you, but they have still attacked first.

I just want to point something out though - taiji is a weapon so can be used in many ways. There is also no tradition of ethics to say taiji should only be a defensive art - the reactiveness of the art is simply a part of the fighting strategy, not out of some noble philosophy of not harming others if you have the chance.

Many taiji masters are known to have been cruel, harsh and violent - and that's towards their students! simply because taiji looks soft and has been connected with taoism by some doesn't mean it has a passive/non-violent philosophy behind it.

[HK Pedestrian]

Ah yes, I'll agree with both of you, absolutely.

Some of the old timers were known to seem harsh indeed, Yang Pan-hou, Yang Shao-hou were famous for that. Interestingly, members of the Wu family learned from both of those instructors, so there are many stories of apparent violence told in our tradition. As well, there are stories told of my teacher's family members fighting a lot when they were younger. During the war they moved from Shanghai to Hong Kong, where northerners weren't appreciated so much, so there were many opportunities to defend themselves.

The stories do qualify the positioning, though, for the most part. That is why I say "seem" and "apparent." In those days it was seen very much as a teaching method, "skillful means" for an instructor to weed out students who weren't going to be able to study the art at a high level yet. Most people have something else to learn before they can really learn T'ai Chi Ch'uan the old-fashioned way. They would kick around their students in order that the students would be less likely to "graduate themselves" and think that they had something that they hadn't. A teacher would go to jail, these days, for teaching that way, of course. A good student would be challenged by being shown something they didn't understand so unequivocally and strive to improve, a part timer would quit.

Nobody is perfect, so it is possible that the harshness was exacerbated by the environment and the culture to what we would consider excess, but the art was transmitted to the present day, which is what they old timers were after.

[gt3]

yeah they were a LOT harsher on their students. But since teachers arent like that these days the combat thing isn't just have to be a teachers intent, it has to be YOUR intent. The question is how can you simulate that level of training? its unlikely that you'll be able to talk your teacher abusing you, not that anyone would. But how can any of us expect to be as good as the masters of old if we don't train as seriously? Chen Xiaowang used to practice his long forms 30 times a day everyday. Of course theres a fine line between "conditioning" and "set backs" (by injuries, overtraining, etc) :cool: