The Personal Growth Thread

[YODA]

Hi MAPers

OK - let's get deep.

Are you taking active steps to become a "better person?"

Do you think improving as a person is a valuable goal?

What traits do you feel are "valuable" in a person that you maybe feel you need more of?

Honesty?
Integrity?
Giving?
Selflessness?

..... or are you, as many are these days, just out for what you can get & stuff everyone else?

Is that a healthy view to hold?

Do you think that "religion" is a valid or necessary vehicle for personal growth?

How do you define "religion" - does a belief in a supreme being have to be a pre-requisite? After all, Buddhists do not worship a "God" - yet Buddhism is widely viewed as a religion is it not? (No - I'm not a Buddhist. I'm a Jedi of course :D)

*Disclaimer: I don't want anyone getting the impression that I'm passing any judgement here, or that I feel I have achieved anything in these areas. I'm striving to grow, to become better than I am - but I fail. I fail every single day. I'm just a traveller looking for help :D

I'm looking forward to some mature input here - then we can get to the nitty gritty and discuss things like PRAXIS, and how all this fits into Martial Arts - if indeed it does.

[Spike]

Buddhism isn`t technically a religion, there`s some nit-picking little definition for what it is, which I can`t remember right now.

I`d have to say I don`t think that personal growth or trying to become a "better person" is very important to me.
I don`t see why people need to try and better themselves, there are enough people in the world already who will tell you that you are bad and evil and a sinner without you saying it to yourself.
If what you do in life isn`t making you happy then you should address that without trying to say that you`re making yourself a better person.
You can`t judge people on a sliding scale of goodness, so how can you say you can become a better person?

that`s my tuppence worth in any case

[TkdWarrior]

Are you taking active steps to become a "better person?"
who me?? nahhh...i m born perfect ;) j/k
seriously i m one of those who believe this is life long process(excluding study)
Do you think improving as a person is a valuable goal?
my question is how do u know that u hav improved as a person?
only if u improvment is materlistic...
What traits do you feel are "valuable" in a person that you maybe feel you need more of?
seriously i don't need someone of those traits u mentioned...i got most of them thru genetics :D...but as far as a complete person i m boound to improve...
..... or are you, as many are these days, just out for what you can get & stuff everyone else?
Is that a healthy view to hold?
frankly i didn't get yea...
as spikee already said...u r not improving for someone else...
spike :
If what you do in life isn`t making you happy then you should address that without trying to say that you`re making yourself a better person
now comig back to ur questions...
i don't think religion is necessary for personal growth...
religion...supremem being...yup i believe in wong fei hung n hung kai kwan :D... n i think MA is MY religion ;) :D
i define religion is one of ways but not neccessary THE ONLY WAY too...
-TkdWarrior-

[YODA]

Originally posted by Spike :
If what you do in life isn`t making you happy then you should address that without trying to say that you`re making yourself a better person.


--- So Spike - YOUR happiness is your main goal in life? No concern for the happiness of others? The happiness of those that are important to you?

You can`t judge people on a sliding scale of goodness, so how can you say you can become a better person?


----Oh but you CAN judge. You can judge yourself. "Better" is relative to YOU. I'm not talking about being better than anyone else.

[pgm316]

I do try to be a good person, when I look at myself I don’t see how I could really change for the better. Not saying I’m perfect, not by a long way, but it often feels like a trade off between good and happy, I’m sure as I get older I’ll change then wonder why I was ever so crazy. People talk about sinning, they don’t differentiate much between big sins and little ones, and I don’t want to stop the little ones, there too much fun. Christianity is too much of a step for many people, they preach to live your life in such a nice & boring way. Too big of a step for young people that want to go out and have fun. However, I don’t think being a good person is directly connected to being religious, as many people believe it is. As Buddhists say; you can live your life in a virtuous way whatever religion you are or are not. Having said that I would like to be more religious, but I’m not a true believer and I’m not going for blind faith just yet!

Honesty?
Integrity?
Giving?
Selflessness?

These things are all important. I always try to be honest and have integrity. Being a good person is like investing, if you treat people well, they will treat you well. Being out for yourself will inevitably work against you in the end. Although it is a two way thing, I’m not going to give to people I don’t think are deserving, they’d have to be people I value or charitable cause.

Selflessness is more difficult, how do you do something good that doesn’t make you feel good. Whenever you donate or give, isn’t it because you feel good about helping or the making somebody you like feel happy about receiving something? So what is true selflessness.

In my opinion being a good person shouldn’t mean you treat other people better than yourself. I feel my own happiness is as important as the people around me. So when I try to be a better person, I concentrate on many things, being happy, friends, martial arts, work & wealth. For me its all tied up in the one thing that I try to continuously improve. Anyway, just my thoughts on life.

Paul
Ps Yoda whats PRAXIS?

[Greyghost]

I think my main point is just surviving day to day. To take pleasure in the simple things in life and doing simple things for others that make life better.

religion plays no part in my life, yet i believe in fate.

I live for myself, my wife and those for whom i care.

Am i a good person? NO. but i am trying.


Life is like eating an elephant...its one small bite at a time.



over and out.


fraser

[waya]

Are you taking active steps to become a "better person?"

Well, as you said, being a "better" person is relative to each of us. I do try to become more educated. I feel I have a better understanding of life and enjoy it more if I have some basis of knowledge of the things around me.

Material successes aren't my goal in this. Sure, they'd be nice to have but bettering myself, to me, means educating and challenging myself so that I continue developing instead of just sliding through life.

Do you think improving as a person is a valuable goal?

Again that depends on the person. To me it is, because I don't want to miss anything, and there are really only two things we can have that can't be taken away and that's our self worth, and knowledge.

What traits do you feel are "valuable" in a person that you maybe feel you need more of?
Honesty?
Integrity?
Giving?
Selflessness?

Everyone could, at one time or another, use more of these qualities.

..... or are you, as many are these days, just out for what you can get & stuff everyone else?

No, and personally I don't think that is a healthy view, but I can't make that decision for everyone or tell them how to live.

Do you think that "religion" is a valid or necessary vehicle for personal growth?

This is very much individualistic. It's also an area I am very torn in. Two sides of my family have very different beliefs, so I am still trying to figure this out for myself.

How do you define "religion" - does a belief in a supreme being have to be a pre-requisite? After all, Buddhists do not worship a "God" - yet Buddhism is widely viewed as a religion is it not? (No - I'm not a Buddhist. I'm a Jedi of course )

I still don't have an answer for myself to this one.

[TkdWarrior]

my question is why u want to be best? let's not talk about careers studies etc cause they r reason for our survival...
Wat's u r pursing?why ? why's should be competition to be best?
-TkdWarrior-

[TkdWarrior]

wotd my fault...my question is for everyone not just for u...so u don't hav to clear ur situation...but u did so well n good...:)
-TkdWarrior-

[Spike]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Spike :
If what you do in life isn`t making you happy then you should address that without trying to say that you`re making yourself a better person.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




--- So Spike - YOUR happiness is your main goal in life? No concern for the happiness of others? The happiness of those that are important to you?

Well, I can`t be happy at the expense of others, I wish I could be that selfish because it`d make life a hell of a lot easier.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can`t judge people on a sliding scale of goodness, so how can you say you can become a better person?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----Oh but you CAN judge. You can judge yourself. "Better" is relative to YOU. I'm not talking about being better than anyone else.

How does one know when one becomes a better person?

[YODA]

Well, I can`t be happy at the expense of others, I wish I could be that selfish because it`d make life a hell of a lot easier.

Ahhhh..... my faith is restored :D

How does one know when one becomes a better person?

Look in the mirror - he'll tell you.

[Darzeka]

You know no-one has ever done anything they didn't want to?

Everything you have ever done has been purely to make you feel good or make you happy.
This isn't a bad thing because to the vast majority of people making other people happy or caring about them makes them feel happy too.

Analyse something you have done. Why did you do it?
Eventually you will find that you did it to make yourself feel good, even if you did something nice for someone else the main goal of the action was your own happiness. Just realise it, accept it then enjoy whatever it is you enjoy.

For every person who enjoys making other people unhappy there will be another person who will enjoy stopping those people.

My goal at the moment is to amputate my ego and live for things that make me happy. All experiences are good because they have never happened before, I just want to see everything, know everything and do everything - therefore I will never become bored because there is always something else to see, find out or do.

[Scotty Dog]

at this moment becoming a better person is something very important to me. Over the last couple of year's I made some big F**K ups in my life, hurt people I cared about & lost some friends ( Long story short, divorce ).

with hindsite ( that wonderfull thing) the reason I fail at being the person I want to be always comes down to honesty, not with others but with myself, any time I've made a boo-boo it always seems to have come down to me amending the facts to shut up that little voice in the back of my head telling me "you know that's not right "

orig posted by yoda
Look in the mirror - he'll tell you.

at this moment my goals are to enjoy what life gives me & not to fight to control the way my life is going the as I used to. I've been doing it for about a year now & lifes pretty good, I'm with someone I really care about, got a little one on the way, training again, in a job I don't love but don't hate. As for the boo-boos from my past, the people I hurt have moved on & got over it ( I hope) the friends I care about are still with me & I'm make'n some new ones . I just hope that as long as I stay honest with myself I'll be the kind of person I want to be.

hig
PS thanks for letting me share guy's :cry: anyone for a
:love: GROUP HUG :love: :)

[TkdWarrior]

normally i give hugs only to girls...but in ur case i m making an exception...first n last time only :D that's it for today..
:hugs:
-TkdWarrior-

[Scotty Dog]

awwww shucks, TKD warrior, you really touched me there, but if you touch me there again I'm telling my teacher :D

hig

[YODA]

You know what amazes me?

People have absolutely no problem acknowledging that becoming a better fighter...

1. Is a worthwhile goal

2. Takes effort, work & constant practice.

Yet so few hold the same view in relation to becomeing a better...

Partner
Parent
Son / daughter
Friend
Society member
etc etc...

[Scotty Dog]

it's easy to admit your could be a better fighter, all you have to do is spar & at least two people see most of your shortcomings. admitting that your not the best person you could be's a lot harder as there's very little imprical data ( sorry about the spelling)
ie
sparing-you get hit,
life- you can be a b*$t*rd & still feel good about yourself/be
the most popular person in the world

also while being a better fighter (depending on the way you've chosen to train) has bench marks & rewards. Grades, tournamens,etc. being a better person doesn't. in most schools I've trained in there are set things you have to do to get the grade, in life YOU have to tell YOURSELF. It's easier to improve with someone telling you "do it this way, that's it. great now your this good at whatever". It's scarier when your responsable for the way you improve, not a sifu/sensi/coach.

finally it's easier to have an excuse/reason for not being a good fighter " I didn't train hard enough/ he's bigger/ I've never trained that before /my style sucks/ that blonde over ther was distracting me :) ". Not many people want to be shown that they can improve as a person as it's harder to explain to themselves why their not the best partner/parent/friend they can be.

hig

[Freeform]

Firstly, I'm not hugging you hig, "Is that an eskrima stick in your pocket, or ya just pleased to see me?" :D

Religion holds no part of my life (I don't view my training in the Force as a religion ;) ), but I do have big respect for people like Vicars, Ministers and Nun's (and not just cause I'm a big Father Ted fan!) who have devoted their life to something they believe in and to help others.

How good a person you are differs in each of your social groups. Some people may think your great because you do charity work, but you could still be a loud obnoxious pr***.

How can you decide if your a 'good person', your obviously gonna be biased.

Cheers

Col

[YODA]

Religion holds no part of my life

Me neither.

How can you decide if your a 'good person', your obviously gonna be biased.

By looking in the mirror - you can fool others but deep down you KNOW the truth.

[TkdWarrior]

"awwww shucks, TKD warrior, you really touched me there, but if you touch me there again I'm telling my teacher :D"
naaaaaahhhh that's first n last time ;) :D

"By looking in the mirror - you can fool others but deep down you KNOW the truth"
so true...isn't this being true to urself??
-TkdWarrior-

[YODA]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior

so true...isn't this being true to urself??
-TkdWarrior-


--- Yep, sure is.

Easy words - not so easy in practice.

I fail more than I succeed.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Freeform

How good a person you are differs in each of your social groups. Some people may think your great because you do charity work, but you could still be a loud obnoxious pr***.

How can you decide if your a 'good person', your obviously gonna be biased.

Cheers

Col

I agree FF, its hard to judge a good person. I've met people that think their good people doing charity work etc, but their often not even close. Then like you say, one group of people might think your great and another lot think your evil.........

I think its something you can only judge yourself, only you know your intentions!

[YODA]

Absolutely!

The problem is often - which you do you listen to?

[waya]

Originally posted by YODA
Absolutely!

The problem is often - which you do you listen to?

Neither

[TkdWarrior]

Yoda:
"Easy words - not so easy in practice.
I fail more than I succeed."

why because u hav set goals??didn't u?...
quote from simpsons
Homer: when u try that's the first step to failure :D ;)
quite true isn't it..

Waya : "Neither"
yup those who r married listens to their wife ;) :p
-TkdWarrior-

[Scotty Dog]

does everyone have the same " little voice" telling them whats right. does their little voice come from their upbringing/culture. or is it something that's "hardwired" into everyone from birth??

I like to believe the latter but I know it prob not. If it is true how can it be acceptable for some societys to stone people for their views and beliefs????????

hig

"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper." - Robert Frost

[YODA]

Yo Hig

For some very revealing info on "That little voice" check out "Feal The Fear & Do It Anmyway" by Susan Jeffers. She calls it "The Chatterbox" and deals with the issue very well.

I may even have a spare copy lying around :D

[pgm316]

Originally posted by elhiggito
does everyone have the same " little voice" telling them whats right. does their little voice come from their upbringing/culture. or is it something that's "hardwired" into everyone from birth??

I like to believe the latter but I know it prob not. If it is true how can it be acceptable for some societys to stone people for their views and beliefs????????

hig

"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper." - Robert Frost

I don't believe its hard wired into us, maybe to a point, but our values are all learnt. Often a cultural thing, or how else can people in different countires have such different views & beliefs.

So I think that little voice is heavily biased by the people you have grown up around. Although now the world is becoming more opened up, out little voice has more sources to listen too;


Yoda
Absolutely!

The problem is often - which you do you listen to?


we can listen to both groups, try and understand their views and make up our own decision. A lot like cross training ;) Being a good person to me, means making the decision you believe is right from what you understand. The two groups will make two different decisions, it may mean one decision is wrong, but it doesn't mean one group are bad people, all depends what their intentions are. Maybe ;)

[YODA]

we can listen to both groups, try and understand their views and make up our own decision.

I think you missed my point. Both of the "yous" I was refering to are indeed YOU.

1. The real YOU

2. The other YOU - The Chatterbox (See above)

[waya]

Ok, another side to this issue.....


How do you see yourself when you have to face yourself after the person you trust the most betraying you, and saying it is your fault. Is a better person above retaliation, revenge, temper...... Or are we only human?

[YODA]

Is a better person above retaliation, revenge, temper...... Or are we only human?

Yes ..... and yes!

Nobody said it was easy. In fact it is the hard paths in life that yield the greatest benefit in the long run.

[Cain]

Hmm....I m not taking active steps to become a better person if I m hen I m not even aware of it....

I seriously believe it's impossible for a person to judge himself [it sure is impossible for me] Besides who r we to judge ourselves when we r supposed to do better things in life rather than judge ourselves n admire ourselves.

|Cain|

[YODA]

I seriously believe it's impossible for a person to judge himself

--- I seriously believ that you are wrong. In fact I would go as far as to say that yourself is the only person you should judge.


Besides who r we to judge ourselves when we r supposed to do better things in life rather than judge ourselves n admire ourselves.


Who mentioned self admiration? I certainly didn't.

[Cain]

Oh ok remove the admire and keep the judge :D ......and lemme know wat u get....

|Cain|

[YODA]

Ok - who are we to judge ourselves?

We are beings of light - a little muddy these days perhaps but under all that crud goodness lurks :D

[Cain]

Hmm.......I like that.....and yes I sort of agree with u that we ourselves r the only person we should judge......good post there......but I never seriously thought about things like this, if fact my family is extremely religous but I, myself am not. I seriously don't believe in god but I think god is that voice inside u that bugs u whenever u r doing something wrong, like ur subconciousnes [excuse my bad spells]

|Cain|

[YODA]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
Hmm.......I like that.....and yes I sort of agree with u that we ourselves r the only person we should judge......good post there......but I never seriously thought about things like this, if fact my family is extremely religous but I, myself am not. I seriously don't believe in god but I think god is that voice inside u that bugs u whenever u r doing something wrong, like ur subconciousnes [excuse my bad spells]

|Cain|


Aha! We're getting there - that pretty much sums up my view :D

[Cain]

Glad to know that Yoda :D

|Cain|

[Scotty Dog]

How do you see yourself when you have to face yourself after the person you trust the most betraying you, and saying it is your fault. Is a better person above retaliation, revenge, temper...... Or are we only human?

we are only human, having been in that situation I had to sit down and ask myself " will doing ............, actually make a difference" the answer was no. doesn't stop me having the odd daydream about reporting certain things to inland revenue, or sending the odd forged request for a dodgey transvestite contact mag to be sent to their home ( actually gave into that one, god I wish I could have seen them explain that to the wife, ahem I mean I'm racked with guilt :cry: ) but as a whole I'm happy with my choices



I seriously believe it's impossible for a person to judge himself

Theres a difference between being honest with yourself and JUDGING yourself, If you pass judgement then you are saying that you were/are deff right or wrong, I don't think your ever one or the other. If it were that easy we'd all be hitler or mother theresa. If your honest with your self you can say " I did the best I could", " I could have done better" ( my usual answer) or " I was out of line " the emphasis should be on how you act in future, not on things that are already done and can't change.

[Darzeka]

I feel that essentially there is no right or wrong.

I want to do the things that I think I should. I enjoy other people being happy around me and don't really care if they aren't.

If I can help someone then I'll do it, if not then its no biggy. I don't try to do things that will make life worse or uncomfortable for people.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Darzeka
I feel that essentially there is no right or wrong.




Care to elaborate on that?

No right or wrong?

eh?

[TkdWarrior]

darekza trying to be bhudhist...
exists or not...:D
-TkdWarrior-

[Spike]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I can`t be happy at the expense of others, I wish I could be that selfish because it`d make life a hell of a lot easier.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ahhhh..... my faith is restored

You have faith in me? I`m honoured.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How does one know when one becomes a better person?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Look in the mirror - he'll tell you.

He`ll tell you if you`re happy or not, whether you are happy or not is all that matters, if you think of yourself as a better person it`s simply because you`re happier

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Darzeka
I feel that essentially there is no right or wrong.


I'll agree with that, to a point.

People think of right and wrong like its black and white. Right for one person can be wrong for another.

[simonlarcombe]

What a massive, massive topic to cover!

I wish I had more time, but briefly.

I think the first important step to take is the realisation that everyone is equal. You are no more important than anyone else. Understanding that can take you a long way towards being a better person.

I don't think that having personal goals and improving yourself for your own benefit is a bad thing... infact in today’s world it is more of a necessity. But I understand where you are coming from.

Buddhism is a philosophy; it is a way of life. It isn't a religion.

[YODA]

Originally posted by simonlarcombe
What a massive, massive topic to cover!

I wish I had more time, but briefly.

I think the first important step to take is the realisation that everyone is equal. You are no more important than anyone else. Understanding that can take you a long way towards being a better person.

I don't think that having personal goals and improving yourself for your own benefit is a bad thing... infact in today’s world it is more of a necessity. But I understand where you are coming from.


Good points well put :D


Buddhism is a philosophy; it is a way of life. It isn't a religion.


Define religion. For me religion IS your philosophy, your way of life.

My dictionary says....

Religion - a personal set or system of attitudes, beliefs, and practices

[pgm316]

Either way, I though Buddhism was a religion???

Maybe everyone is equal, but we're never going to treat everyone equally.

[TkdWarrior]

Buddhism is a philosophy; it is a way of life. It isn't a religion.
Hinduism,islamism,christianism,judaism r all philosphy...if u differentiate b/w religions then ah wat can i say... :)
-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

Pgm has an excellent point I must say

|Cain|

[pgm316]

Buddhism believes in reincarnation, though that was more than a philosophy..........

[pgm316]

A Buddhist told me Buddism is 3 things, a religion, a philosophy and a way of life. And you can take it to be any combination of those 3 things.

[simonlarcombe]

Thanks Yoda :-)

My comment about Buddhism was perhaps a little arrogant, not a good personal trate! :-)

I would understand philosophy to be different to religion. I think that your philosophy can come from religion. Having said that it doesn't mean I'm right! I think the edges here are very blurred and it depends on your own personal point of view.

As I say a massive topic which could take A LOT of time to cover!

Good post.

Best Regards to all
Simon

[simonlarcombe]

Hi Everyone

Just quickly...

I think some of you may have read some predjudice into my original post, this is not the case.

My views on religion are slightly obscure and I certainly don't have time to explain at the moment, and it would probably end up being a very confusing and rambling post anyway! :-)

My comment was based upon my understanding of Buddhism (which is very small) and perhaps I should have kept my thoughts to myself. Learning!

I do not have any predjudice to any religion that I know anything about (except Satanism which I consider, and I don't mind saying this, complete madness)... I think they all have great lessons to learn from and I hope my thoeries on religion are true for the sake of all of us. :-)

Best Regards
Simon

[pgm316]

How dare you call satanism! :D

Don't worry Simon, people rarely agree on everything, but it makes the debates more interesting :)

[Spike]

Quote:
"(except Satanism which I consider, and I don't mind saying this, complete madness)... "

Do you mean "Satanism" or do you mean "Satanic Woship"?

[YODA]

Originally posted by simonlarcombe

.....and perhaps I should have kept my thoughts to myself.


If we all did that this would be a very quiet forum :D

[simonlarcombe]

Do you mean "Satanism" or do you mean "Satanic Woship"?

Tell me what the difference is...

I can see that there probably is a difference between the two but they don't sound too clever to me.

To worship or follow an ex-angel who wants to deceive the whole of humanity (including the people who worship or follow him)??

Or maybe Satan, Beel Zebub, Lucifer what ever you might like to call him was just a nice angel? Whatever he is, fact or fiction the values he stands for are bad.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Satanism is generally thought of as an atheistic philosophy similar to humanism. Satanic worship on the other hand is little more than devil cults.

Whether or not he wants to deceive all humanity is debatable. In Greek myth Prometheus takes on a similar role, bringing the gift of divine fire to humanity. Lucifer means the Morningstar, or Lightbringer, and he is often represented as such.

Whether Satan is/was the same person as Lucifer is unknown and hard to say.

Lucifer's deception may well be non-existent, the problem may have been nothing more than that he defied God to come to our aid. It may have been that he tried to destroy us. Frankly there's so many different interpretations and possibilities that no one will ever know for sure.

The values he's supposed to stand for are bad. Or are they? What exactly are these values, not the ones that his followers stand for, but the actual ones that he outlines when he speaks?

[simonlarcombe]

According to the Christian Bible...

Lucifer was God's right hand man (I understand Lucifer to be translated as "Angel of Light").

Lucifer tried to lead a revolt against God with (I think) approximately 1/3 of the other Angels. He wanted to overthrow God (this is before the creation of the earth).

He was then thrown into the "Abyss" which I assume to mean hell "the lake of burning sulphur".

According to the bible there is a period of 10,000 years in which he is/was/will (who knows) be freed to deceive and temp us on earth... When it was/is/will be is a little vauge.

Of course all this is very debatable, how can you prove any of it to be true? I certainly cannot but I do have my beleifs.

According to the Bible (once again depending on how you read it) I am almost certainly going to hell. I'm quite p*ssed off about that to be honest! :-) I think some of the rules and regulations (so to speak) are incredibly harsh... Having said that, if it is all true, why should God conform to the rules/acceptances of our society he was afterall there before anything alse (forever in fact, a very difficult concept to grasp) he created us, therefore he makes the rules...even if they are a little difficult to accept.

Your points are very interesting.

I should really do some work!!!!

Simon

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Its the old testament/new testament thing again. Technically the Christian holy book is the new testament, as far as I know the old testament is the Torah, or the Jewish holy book.

[Spike]

Quote:
"True.....the old testiment was the jews book, because the new testiment had not happened yet. "

umm...maybe slightly more because Jesus was Jewish?

[simonlarcombe]

Stop, stop, please stop! I can't take it anymore!

:D

[Darzeka]

My thoughts on the religion bit in relation to the topic (kind of).

So you look inside yourself and find this thing that goes off if you find a situation or thing that you either like or dislike and think that is fundamentally right or wrong.

Now for the most part the basic rules of most religions I find to be reasonably acceptable - a basis for human behaviour to propagate a pleasant society. But then they go and stick in some really quite silly rules, and rewards and punishments for whether you abide by them or not.
If I don't think that a rule is right and decide to ignore it then I will go to hell. If I ignore my feeling inside that the rule is wrong then I go to heaven where I will need to continue fighting that thing inside me because heaven will have the same rules as the religion (it makes sense - why make a rule then don't apply to the people who followed it on earth?)

I think that we shouldn't need the rules and punishments and just live the way we feel is right and it being its own reward because we are happy living the way we want.

[YODA]

Hmmmmm........... ((Put's devil's Advocate hat on))

I think that we shouldn't need the rules and punishments and just live the way we feel is right and it being its own reward because we are happy living the way we want.

Some people feel it's right to persecute people because their skin is a different colour.

Some people honestly feel that it is right to fly an aircraft into a skyscraper.

Society must have rules - whether they are based on a "Diety worshipping" religion or not.

[TkdWarrior]

hmm coming to think of it... yoda u didn't put devil's advocates hat :D :p
society needs rules but the worshipping thing is necessary?worshiping is not religion or is it?...
i do not worship so m i not religious?but i think i m...
-TkdWarrior-

[YODA]

but the worshipping thing is necessary?

No - I don't believe it is.

[pgm316]

Most religions seem to believe workship is necessary, & also following their rules & having blind faith, ie being a sheep.

Wouldn't you think "God" would prefer us to be merely good people?

[TkdWarrior]

<Wouldn't you think "God" would prefer us to be merely good people?>
which god?
acc to hindu's there r at least 86 crores gods n goddess
n 3 r the main ones :D :p lol...
the book hindu follows doesn't say about worshiping with blind faith, bhudhism doesnt' say so...i think islamism doesn't even say so but in there's one contradicted statement about "Khafirs: ppl who r against humanity or religion" n this statement often get misinterpretted...Jainism doesn't follow blind faith
so worshiping is not a big deal in most religions(as they say)
it's so much confusion :confused:
-TkdWarrior-

[pgm316]

They don't say so of course, or else that would be blind faith! :D

[pgm316]

Originally posted by YODA
Hmmmmm........... ((Put's devil's Advocate hat on))



Some people feel it's right to persecute people because their skin is a different colour.

Some people honestly feel that it is right to fly an aircraft into a skyscraper.

Society must have rules - whether they are based on a "Diety worshipping" religion or not.

I agree Yoda there must be rules. Then again, the things you've mentioned have largely been caused by rules. Or at least religious rules. There seems to be little limit to what people will do when there faith is strong.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Most religions ask for belief and trust, worship is something the churches added to get money.

[Darzeka]

I accept that there are people who like to do things that cause grief for other people. But I think that this is balanced by the people who like to help the grief stricken people and the other people whol ike to hurt those people doignnasty things to every one else.

I just wish that people wouldn't try to force me to do things by threatening me with punishment (it doesn't work anyway - i don't care) rather they should polietly anounce their guidlines for life and let other people look at them and follow them as they will.

[Bon]

Okay, I have to say I was amazed that a lot of you guys aren't really interested in becoming a better person. I don't know how you could settle of medicority.. :D Do you settle for second best with your training ?

Originally posted by YODA
Are you taking active steps to become a "better person?"


Yes, I read self-help books. I'm currently reading 'Awaken the Giant Within' by Anthony Robbins.

I have made some changes in my life, such taking responsibility for everything, and not blaming circumstances, or what happens to me. Recently, I have left my current group of 'friends' because when I first joined the group I was lacking emotionally & mentally compared to them and I had things to learn. This may sound arrogant, but I believe there is nothing more to learn from them, except that there are better people out there and to find them! :D I strongly believe, 'The only things determing who we are now and who we are in five years' time are the books we read and the people with whom we associate'. Besides, anyone who's not supportive in your bettering yourself can't be a true friend.

I will never be content with what I have, I will always want a challenge to give me more out of life. I don't just mean materialistic things, I mean knowledge in a number of areas, especially martial arts!


Do you think improving as a person is a valuable goal?


Yeah, it'll allow me to surround myself with better people, hence improve the quality of my life.


What traits do you feel are "valuable" in a person that you maybe feel you need more of?

Honesty?
Integrity?
Giving?
Selflessness?


I think the only thing I really lack is integrity, but I suppose if I lack integrity, I also lack honesty in a way. However, I won't make excuses for my lack of integrity, such as deny I said anything.. I always get 'round to doing what I say eventually, usually it is later than sooner. I strongly believe we need to work on ourselves, before we can work on relationships with others though. I liken my friendships to an analogy involving a window. The window is the friendship, and the window has been smashed... I want a new window, this time a bullet proof one, but I require more money to buy it, which means working on myself.

Other traits I especially value are determination, high work ethic and intelligence, especially intelligence.

I want to be that crazy smart guy at math who does complex numbers, conics, integration, physics like it's second nature and can always help you with your homework problems you're stuck on. :D

I still have a long way to go, but by setting my goals as high as I possibly can, has made a huge difference in my life academically. I started year 7 in the intermediate class for math, I was really close to dropping down to the standard class. I busted my ass off in year 8, coming second behind this chick all the time, grr :D I eventually moved up into the advanced class half-way in year 9 and really struggled with it! Basically, I had nfi what the hell was going on, I got a tutor and I was ranked 54/60 at the of the year. Half-way through year 10 I was ranked 30th, at the end of the year I was ranked 15th. :) I finished year 12 ranked 14th in advanced mathematics, and 12th in extension mathematics, so I really haven't worked on improving my math much in the last two years. But, the improvements I've made in math have given me a lot of confidence academically and I believe the intelligence to do well in other subjects such as physics & software design & development. I think how I would have done academically if I hadn't desired to succeed in mathematics and I would have been doing general math and other 'easy' subjects. I probably wouldn't even be going to Uni next year! While Uni is not paramount to getting a good job, it will help me get a job to accomplish other goals in my life, and provide the means to pursure those goals, such as my MA training! :D



..... or are you, as many are these days, just out for what you can get & stuff everyone else?

Not at all! One of the most rewarding things is learning with others, helping others to learn, learning off others. Interdepence rocks!


Is that a healthy view to hold?

Insincerity only breeds distrust..

Do you think that "religion" is a valid or necessary vehicle for personal growth?

Valid ? Yes, providing you don't become religion's slave.
Neccessary ? No, not at all.


How do you define "religion"


To me, it's just a set of beliefs you hold and live to..

does a belief in a supreme being have to be a pre-requisite?

Nope.

[YODA]

I can't fault any of that Bon.

Good post :D

[Darzeka]

I think you may want to let go of the being the best in the class bit. Its good to want to improve but that is entirely measured against yourself, not anyone else.
Would you have become complacement if you had gotten first in maths? doesn't sound like it but if your goal is to be the top in the class not to improve then you may start to do that.
And then there is the fact that there will always be someone better, smarter, stronger, etc and thinking can drive you nuts if you want to be the best.

I want to improve. As fast as possible. I can only do this by looking at myself and thinking have I improved? This will apply to everything I do. If I don't improve then I can look at why and figure it out, for the most part people can't do this for you, particularly in my MA training. If I can't find out why I am not improving then how will I help others improve?

There is one student at the moment who doesn't seem to change his attitude at training and at the moment he is not improving and this is becoming dangerous - he was partly at fault in an injury to his training partner and nearly killed his brother practising throws. All the instructors are at a loss as to how to help him get better.
This lack of ability to find the problem is mainly inside his head but also probaly because we can't make him think about what he is trying to do.
I am only starting out instructing and so need to improve greatly if I am to help him. When he is throwing better will I have improved as an instructor? or did he improve his training? I will know inside which is true and keep improving regardless.

*wanders off trying to find the path again*

[Bon]

Originally posted by Darzeka
I think you may want to let go of the being the best in the class bit. Its good to want to improve but that is entirely measured against yourself, not anyone else.

I know I'm improving at math if I'm doing harder topics & maintaining my current position, but relative to everyone else, I haven't improved. Should I be happy knowing I'm 'good' at math, but not brillant at it ? Would you be happy knowing your technique is good, but not excellent ? The difference between good technique and excellent technique may make the difference in you droping that big guy, or getting that big guy off you.

To me, you're basically saying 'don't aim so high'. I say, why the hell not ?! The people who are the best in the class aim to be the best; and to be the best requires a lot of hard work and dedication on your behalf. I'll try to emulate their mentality as best as possible until it becomes a part of me. When I do reach my goal, I won't become complacent, but it will give me the confidence to tackle problems encountered in programming

[TkdWarrior]

< I haven't improved. Should I be happy knowing I'm 'good' at math, but not brillant at it ? >
the prob is with this is that u'll end up puffin ur own ego...

if u hav become good like the other guy in ur class then wat? ur teacher, lets us suppose u did that too... lets us suppose u become best mathematician in the universe then? u'll lost ur intention getting better(cuz u r best)...don't tell me that "i hav a choice i still can train"
when u reached this height, this will become ur habbit...because the way u practiced all the time...

so getting better should be with urself...u only want to improve then when u improve u want to do it further... Material goals doesn't bring happiness or stillness in mind...
-TkdWarrior-

[Spike]

Quote: From Bon

"Recently, I have left my current group of 'friends' because when I first joined the group I was lacking emotionally & mentally compared to them and I had things to learn. This may sound arrogant, but I believe there is nothing more to learn from them, except that there are better people out there and to find them"

This is how you choose your friends?

Quote:
"Besides, anyone who's not supportive in your bettering yourself can't be a true friend"

No offence but if someone stopped associating with me because they viewed themselves as better than me, I wouldn`t beliieve them to be a true friend

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..... or are you, as many are these days, just out for what you can get & stuff everyone else?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Not at all! One of the most rewarding things is learning with others, helping others to learn, learning off others. Interdepence rocks!


It sounds to me like you are out for yourself, if you dump when your friends when they are not your equal anymore, apologies if I picked this up wrong.

[TkdWarrior]

Spike :<It sounds to me like you are out for yourself, if you dump when your friends when they are not your equal anymore, apologies if I picked this up wrong.>

c`mon dude u r coming too tough on him :D but that sure i thought of first too :)
-TkdWarrior-

[Bon]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior
the prob is with this is that u'll end up puffin ur own ego...

Not necessarily, just because you would puff your own ego doesn't mean others will. There are many intelligent people out there who are humble, just like there are many good martial artists out there who are humble. My sister & father will always keep me in check anyway, they are way smarter than I can ever hope to be.


if u hav become good like the other guy in ur class then wat? ur teacher, lets us suppose u did that too... lets us suppose u become best mathematician in the universe then? u'll lost ur intention getting better(cuz u r best)...don't tell me that "i hav a choice i still can train"
when u reached this height, this will become ur habbit...because the way u practiced all the time...


I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. Your grammar is quite poor. Perhaps you should work on yourself instead of criticising me for my goals ? Maybe if I do become extremely good at math and my ego gets out of check, you could criticise me then. Yes, I would teach math. I'll teach anything if I'm good enough at it.

so getting better should be with urself...u only want to improve then when u improve u want to do it further... Material goals doesn't bring happiness or stillness in mind...


Once again, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. Knowlede of mathematics is not a material possession, so I don't know where that statement came from.

[Bon]

Originally posted by Spike
This is how you choose your friends?

No, I choose my friends on the basis of whether I can trust them, and if they will support me and provide encouragement in achieving my goals, not put me down to keep me at their level since they are afraid if I go onto bigger things we won't have anything in common anymore.


No offence but if someone stopped associating with me because they viewed themselves as better than me, I wouldn`t beliieve them to be a true friend

I didn't say I was better than them. Someone who's not interested in supporting me become a better person can't be a true friend. I don't care if they want to better themselves or not, there's no need to put me down for having goals.

I also don't particularly like people talking behind my back, or telling the next person they see something I told them in confidence. If that's what a 'friend' is to you, that's fine. That's not what I define a friend as. Different people look for different things in friends, and they're not providing me what I want. If I'm not happy with them, should I really continue to associate with them for their sake ?


It sounds to me like you are out for yourself, if you dump when your friends when they are not your equal anymore, apologies if I picked this up wrong.

No, I'm not out for myself, I'm more than happy to help someone in any way I can. I'm looking for interdependence in my friendships. I go to training, and just about everyone there is willing to help each other get better. I associate with them 'friends', and they're trying to keep you down as low as possible, while they get better themselves.

[TkdWarrior]

<I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. >
i m sayin in simple terms that how u behave, how u react they are all small things, the way u think is the way u react, because of that thinking there's chance that it will become habbit. i m not sayin about teaching
this was ur comment:
< I haven't improved. Should I be happy knowing I'm 'good' at math, but not brillant at it ? >
if u keep checking ur progress with others there'll be time when u'll hav no AIM so wat i was saying is checking ur progress is within u not outside u...

<Your grammar is quite poor.>
well my grammer is very poor i know that...but rite now i hav more priorities than checkin my grammer...

knowledge of anything can become Material possesions...
because u owns it n worked hard...

<and they're not providing me what I want. If I'm not happy with them, should I really continue to associate with them for their sake ? >
can u reverse it too?? i mean do u hav wat it takes to provide wat they want?
IMO whenever relationship is built on "Wat i want" then they bound to crumble...
no one like ppl who talks at back, no one like ppl who put others down, n i guess we r not talking about that anyways...No one associate those sort of ppl as "freinds"
but ur statement(which spike hightlighted already) tells us that "to achieve ur goals u'll do anything" when u hav this kind of attitude then u'll meet more ppl who'll talk at back, who'll put down others...
freindship is more than about "wat u want or wat they want"
-TkdWarrior-

[Bon]

if u keep checking ur progress with others there'll be time when u'll hav no AIM so wat i was saying is checking ur progress is within u not outside u...

Yes, measuring myself relative to others is a way of measuing my progress. If I am the same relative to everyone else, everyone else has improved as well, so I am still in the same spot..

How do you measure your training ? I measure my training by comparing where I'm at now to where I was before. Thefore, if I can maintain someone in side control when I couldn't beforel, I've improved. Or, if I can get out of side control when I couldn't before, I've improved. To me, that's measureable progress. I don't see how this is any different to seeing where I am relative to everyone else in a math class.




well my grammer is very poor i know that...but rite now i hav more priorities than checkin my grammer...

How hard is it to put in a few commas and full stops, unless you're an idiot ?

knowledge of anything can become Material possesions...
because u owns it n worked hard...

No, it's not tangible, hence it's not material.


can u reverse it too?? i mean do u hav wat it takes to provide wat they want?

Yeah, I can be an idiot, swear in front of their girlfriends, disrespect people, agree with their bitching.


IMO whenever relationship is built on "Wat i want" then they bound to crumble...

That's exactly why my friendship with them is crumbling. I couldn't have put that better myself! I'm the one who does all the listening, all the giving without getting anything back. I'm quite sick of it.

no one like ppl who talks at back, no one like ppl who put others down, n i guess we r not talking about that anyways...No one associate those sort of ppl as "freinds"

So you agree with me in leaving them then and not considering them my friends ?

but ur statement(which spike hightlighted already) tells us that "to achieve ur goals u'll do anything" when u hav this kind of attitude then u'll meet more ppl who'll talk at back, who'll put down others...


Heh. I don't know if they do talk behind me back and say negative things. But, I can confirm things I've told them in trust haven't stayed that way. I only assume they talk about me behind my back as well, since they talk about virtually everyone else behind their back.

For the record, friendships are much more important than personal endeavours. I know that sounds contradictive, but I think it's more a paradoxial statement.. I will always work on relationships before that math problem, providing I feel the relationship is a worthwhile investment, i.e, the person has done nothing to lose my trust.

[TkdWarrior]

<I measure my training by comparing where I'm at now to where I was before. >
dude i think i was saying thing :)

<How hard is it to put in a few commas and full stops, unless you're an idiot ?>
ah i hate to call myself ;) :p

<No, it's not tangible, hence it's not material.>
No it's not exact definition for material.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
tangible:adj
a. Discernible by the touch; palpable: a tangible roughness of the skin.
b. Possible to touch.
c. Possible to be treated as fact; real or concrete: tangible evidence.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
material possesions would be anything with which u can get attached ie. money, success, luv or hate...


<Yeah, I can be an idiot, swear in front of their girlfriends, disrespect people, agree with their bitching.>
it's not about swearing or disrespecting, my statement doens'nt stand if ur relationship doesn't stand on "wat i want" i guess u said so...
anyway i think all doubts r cleared up...
the way u sounded in ur first post was bit coc ky(should i say that) :D :p

-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

Hmm....methinks religion has nothing to do with it....u yourself as the individual should know wat's rite and wat's wrong, u don't need a god for that.......so my religion may be a hindu but me god is ME :D

|Cain|

[Darzeka]

If you are still in the same spot relative to everyone else have you gotten better? If everyone else improve too then you would have improved.

I have goals of improving. I know I have improved when things feel right not if I can do things that I couldn't before, these things are still relative to the other person involved. What if they have gotten worse or not improved much or had a bad day, then you measure your improvement against those performances and you think you have improved more than you had.

If you are not worrying about your ego till someone notices then you are going about it the wrong way. You should not have an ego at all.

You can learn things from every situation and person you have ever encountered. You are talking bout positive things you learn from people, people who will help you to "improve". If you come across a real mean person you can still learn many things from, making you a more complete person. You could watch them and watch how thier mood and actions give you warnings about when they are going to be mean. Analyse all situations for places where you can learn something new.

You don't need maths in programming beyond knowiong how to copy equations - the computer does it all for you.

I wasn't saying don't set yourself lower goals I was saying make them bigger and higher. Aim to know all maths and know that they are meaningless. Aim to not have to fight. Aim to be able to run indefinately.

What happens when you reach your goal? What happens when you achieve a dream.
You realise that the goal wasn't that important, and the dream isn't as good as the reality.

What does a man with no dreams do?

May all your dreams but one come true.

[shadow joe]

sorry if I seem a little irrelavent I didn't read through all the posts, this is just simply my reply to Yoda' s initial question...




before my current training I felt my self as a deep rooted christian, I don't beleive in organized religion but a personal relationship with the creator. This is attained through scientific study of the word, the bible, and through personal experience, prayer, and devotion.


now that I am involved in Tai Chi my Sifu proposed the idea that I memorize the Tao Te Ching, it's oral translation is one of the most earliest forms and is 81 sayings in it's entirety. Well the version we have at least, there are many, I think they all break down into 81 sayings but some scholars try to inject more poetic tones into their translations, this is more of a literal one that I'm studying, but spoken aloud it sounds poetic to me...



I'm on saying 21, each is about a novel page long and it's been greatly rewarding.


Combined with some Yi Chaun, the standing meditations of Tai Chi, it has brought me to this point.


I now consider myself as a deep rooted christian. I don't believe in organized religion, but a personal relationship with the creator. My faith has been forever accented because the standing meditations constantly bring my mind closer to knowing my spirit, and also closer to knowing the "force" that is behind everything in the universe.


I definitely think it is important to become a better individual, isn't that what martial arts is all about? to be better than something you started out as? It's a continual progression towards the harmony of all things.... once this is attained a great perspective is reached, and believe it or not is relevant to fighting as an art.


here is 16 from the Tao Te Cheng


When you look at it you don't see it
What you don't see when you look is called the unobtrusive
What you don't hear when you listen is called the rarified
What you don't get when you grasp is called the subtle
These three cannot be completely fathomed so they merge into one
Above is not bright, below is not dark
Continuously unnamable it returns again to nothing
This is called the stateless state
The image of no thing
This is called mental abstraction
When you face it you do not see its head
When you follow it you do not see its back
Hold the ancient way so as to direct present existence
Only when you can know the ancient can this be called
The basic cycle of the way.




hope that wasn't too long on the eyes,
JOE