Competition Aikido?

[Freeform]

I just moved to Edinburgh about 6 months ago and I started training in Shodokan Aikido. It was quite a suprise to find out that they took part in competitions as I always believed that there was no competition in Aikido.

Now I have no problem with people competing for points and trophies, its just never really been my seen, but I've been talked into entering a competition this weekend (if my dodgy backs ok by then).

So c'mon all you AikidoKa. Does competition dilute the form and techniques? Or does it allow for more realisim in training?

Yours (Now ducking and looking for cover)

Freeform

[Silver_no2]

An interesting topic my friend!! Lets have a look at this:

My personal opinion is that there is nothing wrong with competing. It helps you to develop your speed and your reactions. If you do not try and apply at least semi-real situations to your training then you will have great form but no application. While the founder did not compete himself, he was known to have had a fair few fights in his youth before embracing the idea of being harmonious all the time.

[Freeform]

Ah, another AikidoKa on the forum.

I like the idea of competition, so long as the people doing it are aware that it isn't 'real'. I've seen good competition players (and I'm not just taking Aikido now) crumple in a real situation.

As to the weekends competition, couldn't compete because of me back :cry: however we did do quite well, especially in the womens randori :p

However, doesn't training for competition train you to do 'nice' legal techniques, therefore creating a 'negative reaction' in a real mugging/fight?

[Silver_no2]

No I don't think that competition trains you to do nice 'legal' techniques. The main benefit is that you will be able to speed up your reactions a bit - even the 'nice' techniques that are legal in competition are quite painful when done in real world situations.

[Thomas Vince]

Ladies and Gentlman,
Let's not get carried away, every martial art battles for notoriety and thud builds a network. In Aikido there should be no contact with the attacker. If he grabs or punches or kicks the only contact is that which he initiates, you as the aikidoist take him to the destiny he seeks. Oure Aikido and real Aikido cannot be put into a competition mode and it is this aspect that makes this art appealing to the police and other government agencies that have explored other means of intervention in a physical conflict. If you want pure competion than go to the ultimate fighting championships where there is no doubt that two people will be fighting. In my world I have no idea but if you cross my family or jeopardize their safety I promise you are done even if I die. If your attack is on me and I can walk away i will more definiately do so.

[Thomas Vince]

Analyze,
No such thing as Shotokan Aikido unless it is a mixture between the two. If you like to strike with your Aikido I suggest you try Tomiki Aikido it is one of the few pure Aikido arts that employ striking in a major way.

[Tintin]

Actually the style of Aikido (Shodokan with a 'D') is for all intents and purposes tomiki. Tomiki didn't want his system known by his own name, as apart from being an ego trip, doing so would instantly limit its potential for developement.
Striking as far as I am aware appears in all forms of Aikido (apologies if I am wrong on this). The main point of the atemi though is merely as a distraction to set the person up for something else.
As for competition, I have to disagree with you. It depends on the focus of the individual style/club. If you never compete, how can you know the effectivness of your technique, although granted it is still a million miles away from simulating a real life situation. All that said, I still have total respect for all those Aikidoka that don't compete for whatever reason, so long as they accept those who do.

[Freeform]

If you check out the rules for the UFC (yes theres rules) avoidances are illegal, this would immediatly disqualifiy an aikidoka as taisabaki is an integral part of the system. Whereas I'm not a competitive martial artist (or martial athlete would be a more correct term) I have begun to compete, because I enjoy the atmosphere (well, of friendly competition) and the social aspect.

[Silver_no2]

And there was me thinking that it was because you wanted to maim and kill people and rule the world!!!

[Freeform]

Well that too!

And anyway, back to the way of harmony.

[Thomas Vince]

I stand corrected and I apologize. I still do not agree with competition Aikido, it must look like a judo match alot of pushing, pulling and that kind of stuff. Unless ofcourse they allow a quick slap to the face every now and then to distract them then that would be fun!
Thomas

[Tintin]

You're pretty much spot on.There is a lot of pushing and pulling, with a slap in the face often doing the trick. That said, when you do pull off a technique that works, and you realise that it works, it's a damn fine feeling.
Oh why can't it all be like it is in the films - clean, quick and spectacular!?!

[Freeform]

Actually it doesn't really look much like Judo, far to much striking (nasty atemi ;) )

[Freeform]

Any other competitioning Aikidoka out there? It would be nice to know that we aren't the only competitors North of York.

Thanx

[Kendo_Cougar]

Me too, i did competition to Aikido. man i Lost. In kendo tournaments I won.. man i want to get better in my Aikido skills, i failed in Aikido.....

[Freeform]

You shouldn't take that opinion, analyse your 'failure' learn from it and improve :)

Thanx

[med]

i must admit i have never competed in aikido.. we descend from yoshinkan so there is none.. i have trained with ex tomiki boys though and i have to admit they were a bit twitchy and i had to be careful not to hurt them.. the problem was that their ukemi was also competetive. so even though i had their balance they stiffened up and fell like a tree.. and when i applied nikkyo they squealed before they tapped.. im not against competition training as long as you recognize the difference between that and training in the application of technique in full. especially at higher grades.. the aikidoka i speak of were dan grades and 3rd kyu at the time.. i was 3rd kyu i think.. It is something that will vary from dojo to dojo i know.. in the shudokan we have a simliar situation, poeple who concentrate on one thing rather than remember the whole with an open mind. hope i did'nt annoy anybody these were just my experiences. it sounds like you shodokan boys(and girls) really have your **** together so please dont think that im trying to slag down the tomiki because thats the last thing on my mind. :D

peace out

[Tintin]

Interesting to hear about your experience with competitive players, and quite surprising too. I would have thought that because you have to be able to take some powerful falls in Randori that they would have allowed themselves to go with the technique rather than against it. By that I don't neccessarily mean allowing themselves to be thrown, more that by stiffening up they limit their options for moving into what their opponent is doing and countering. Easier said than done though.

As for the squeeling before tapping, I suppose you'll always get some tough guys with a point to prove. They'll realise their mistake when they have to sit out for weeks with a knackered wrist.

Competition for us (Shodokan) isn't the 'be all and end all' of our training, rather it is just another learning tool. Some people tend to forget this though, which can be a bit of a problem and may be why many Aikido purists look down on competion.

Anyway, keep it coming med, this is what we need here, Aikidoka with other perspectives and training methods to question each other, which will hopefully increase understanding/acceptance of the many branches of Aikido, and allow individuals to better understand their own style as well.

[Freeform]

The whole ukemi in competition thing is something I talked about over in the Judo forum. Competition Judo players tend to, IMHO, have crap ukemi. Because they'll lose if they land on their back (an Ippon throw) they turn out onto their sides, bye bye ribcage!
Why would competitive Aikidoka be any different?

Also you have to strike the balance of safe/real. For real we need a bit of resistance but not to much that we break, hence safe. The Aiki style ukemi (for example Kote Gaeshi ukemi) looks nice and flowery and 'unrealistic' to punters. They don't realise that we do it to protect our limbs!

I've kinda gone off on a tangent, I hope you understand what I'm getting at (cause I'm not sure I do ;) )!

Colin

[med]

yeah i get ya.. in ref to tintin's post its a bit like i said, i took into account at the time that those people weren't representative of tomiki but only of those people.. if you get me..
with ukemi, i tend to have a bit of side to my falls any way. but i protect the rib cage with correct body positioning. ill try and fiind a descent photo to show you what i mean..
i'd really like to try randori or competing at some level in aikido. i realise it has its place in aikido training, but i dont think it takes you any closer to the application of technique in reality than traditional 'tori uke' training.(hear me out) rather that it might show at higher grades the true meaning of using uke's energy.. like a very advanced form of kagewaza.. but like you say some poeple will not have this in mind when training.
given that i'd really like to try it. plus that im not against it in any way and feel that in the correct light it can actually enhance your ability to read energy as tori, think on this:- I believe that O'sensei did not teach Kagewaza to his students until they were going to found dojo's of their own as aikido dojo's.. this means that either a) he only thought to do it then or b) it is extremely advanced training and not to be taken lightly by lower grades.(including first and second dans..)
it is not my opinion that competition is bad.. i'm just throwing ideas in the air like you asked :)

[Spike]

O`sensei was very against competition because he thought that your training should be about try to better yourself rather than trying to beat anyone else, so long as you keep that in mind when you train in Randori rather than think "he threw me! I`m gonnna get him now."
It`s also good for developing your posture, if your postures bad, when your balance is taken you`ll fly off before Tori even has to perform a technique.
just by two cents worth

[kull1268]

in kisshomaru ueshiba book called the spirit of aikido he states{In contrasts,aikido refuses to become a competitive sport and rejects all formsof contests or tournements,including weight devisions,rankings based on the number of winsand the crowning of champions.Such things are seen as feuling only egotism,self-concern and disregard for others.A great temtation lures people into combative sports-everyone wants to be a winner-but theres nothing more detrimental to Budo,whose ultimate aim is to become free of self,attain no self,and thus realize what is truly human.}hope this sheds some light on this subject.

[YODA]

Sheds a little light on what HE thinks.

And you?

[Tintin]

Firstly, hi kull1268, welcome to the forums. :)

You would expect Kisshomaru Ueshiba to say things like that as obviously he followed very much in his fathers footsteps. That particular line of Aiki will always remain very anti-competition.

Yoda makes a good point, all martial artists must make up their own mind about things, regardless of their sensei/shihan/lineage.

Obviously I would never dream of claiming that anyone of the Ueshiba family has got it wrong. Way above my station.
But the same goes for Tomiki's ideas. He had some very compelling arguments for the use of competition in Aikido. And Shioda. And Tohei etc....Some interesting concepts of Ki.



OK, I'm think I'm beginning to ramble cos I'm trying to watch the Texas Chainsaw Massacre on TV at the same time as writing this.:eek:

[Freeform]

My personal opinion of competition is that it should be kept as purely an aspect of training, not an end unto itself.

As long as it remains fun and friendly then there is benifit to be gained. As an exersice in relfew and application against uncompliant opponents its second only to a real fight (and we don't wanna loose teeth ;) )

Col

[kensai]

The style of Aikido I study has no competition. But I dont have a problem with it. I have a great book called AIkido and the Competitive edge. Which discribes the oringal Aikido thinking which is:

Fights = Bad

Matchs/competition = Fights

Match/competition = Bad.

Which I dont really agree with. But I think Tomiki did a great job of introducing a sports aspect to Aikido. Shodokan Aikido is something I would like to study at some point in my life. I can only see benefits to having a controlled full contact aspect to Aikido. Which not only improves physical aspects, but like Kano said forges the spirit.

[Tintin]

Would that be the book by Nariyama & Shishida shihans? I've not had a chance to read it yet, but given that they are the head guys in Shodokan I would assume its pretty much the business.

I take it that excerpt from the book was from before Tomiki's time, more likely when Ueshiba termed what he was doing as "Aikido" ?

[kensai]

Yeah, more or less.

The thing I have always found difficult to understand is that O Sensei (from what I have read), was in many fights. So in essence he must have learned a lot from them and the true applications of Aikido. However, because of this experience he did not want his students to fight. So how can we learn how to truely apply Aikido.

I guess its one of those things that we are not meant to understand. :)

[tradwarrior]

Well this is not true... Aikido is one of the greatest ARTS with the primary goal of self defense and building character etc.. And it can't be used for COMPETITIONS..and if some do , they are outside the "Spirit" of martial arts , and it becomes useless by then.. Thank you

-Have Fun!-

[Tintin]

If you are saying that I have just wasted more than half my life training in something that is 'outside the spirit of martial arts' and is 'useless', then I take great offence to that.

Do you have any Aikido knowledge/experience, or are you quoting textbooks?

I may have misunderstood the tone of your post, but if not, then I would ask you to be a bit more careful what/who you make statements about, especially outside of your own main art.


P.S. Thanks, I have had fun for my entire time training!

[tradwarrior]

I am talking about AIKIDO as a martial art , and generally about MARTIAL ARTS.. But since there are competition with points , medals etc.. then it becomes useless by then , and i have never said anything about you have wasted any of your time since i don't even know you.. But converting a traditional MARTIAL ART to a competition sport , then yea , its useless anymore!

-Thanks-

[Tintin]

Why is it useless?

If you are going to say things like that then you have to be able to give reasons.


Fair enough, you weren't saying anything against me, but if you make these claims against competitive arts then you will find a lot of people will take it personally. I personally don't care too much - your opinions are yours, mine are mine - although I definately disagree with your views.

I see you do TKD. I have many friends that train in TKD, and I'm sure that they would dispute your anti-competition views.

[YODA]

Originally posted by tradwarrior
Well this is not true... Aikido is one of the greatest ARTS with the primary goal of self defense and building character etc.. And it can't be used for COMPETITIONS..and if some do , they are outside the "Spirit" of martial arts , and it becomes useless by then.. Thank you

-Have Fun!-

What utter hogwash.

Please enlighten me as to how training in uncontested staged theatrics leads to "building character".

[Cain]

There seems to be this kind of BS floating around -

"If they compete they are useless and/or they don't know what street fights are"

I wonder why? *shrug* never mind :rolleyes:

You can train to fight and still compete, it ain't gonna make you any less of a martial artist

|Cain|

[YODA]

Boxers

Thai Boxers

Judoka

BJJ stylists

Wrestlers

All competitive athletes and all more than capable of opening a can-o-whupp-ass on some "too deadly to compete" street wannabe in combat pants & jack boots with his eye boinks and assortment of deadly keyrings.

[Cain]

LOL! Good example! :D

|Cain|

[kensai]

I used to be Uber Traditionalist.

I think as my martial arts knowledge has matured my opinion has changed to it "can be about whatever YOU want it to be about". Not about Great Masters and "dangerous" techniques. Sure some are unpleasant and deadly but thats the wonder of "control".

[Tintin]

Absolutely spot on.

[kensai]

Cheers Tintin.

If I am honest, when I started Aikido, I looked down on every MA that did not have some deep and meaningful philosphy behind it. If it was just about fighting I automatically hated it, arts like MT, BJJ, Sambo... etc I would rip into.

However, firstly I am no hippocrite and I would not get on the mat with one of these guys if you payed me. Second and more importantly you do what you want to do. Every martial art has room for change, no necessarly improvement, which is where I disagree with Mr Lee.

Every style wont tickle everyones fancy, you have to go with what you enjoy. If you like meditation, tradition and hakama then Aikido is for you, if you want to roll and fight then Judo or BJJ.

I get annoyed with these

style Vs style
tradition vs modern debates.

Its what you want that matters to you. If the MA your doing does not suit you then leave, IMHO it takes more guts to leave, pick yourself up and start again than stick at something you dont believe in.

Although I dont like a lot of what the Gracies say, there is one thing.

"A Black Belt only covers 2 inchs of your ass, the rest you have to back up yourself"

I think that can be applied to ANY Martial Art and ANY Martial Artist.

[Freeform]

So if a Martial Art has a competition aspect to it then it isn't a Martial Art?

I notice you practice Tae Kwondo.

Have you bothered to read the rest of this thread Tradwarrior? the competition aspect is there to increase reflex and reaction speeds. To test muscle memory, technique and improve endurance. I don't see how this is usless.

Col

[Spike]

Andy Murray`s article on a relationship between point fighting and street fighting might give you a few thigs to think about. It`s a very good article and has a lot to say on the subject.
There has to be some level of competition when training, if you have any inkling for using it for self-defence. Otherwise you are applying a technique to someone who is doing nothing to stop you, about as realistic training as trying to do crouching tiger jumps or bullet-time

One last question, you ever been punched by a boxer?

[med]

i hope my earlier posts didn't give the impression i felt that competition meant non effective.. thats not what i meant. at the end of the day its not the martial art its the martial artist. what i meant was if the competition is practiced without the origins of what we practice in mind then important stuff will get lost. so naming a load of martial arts who's practitioners can handle themselves seems a mute point.. unless of course somebody rubbished competition, i have to admit i may have missed that its been a long time since i checked the board.