Question on Ki-ai and Ikkyo

[aikiscotsman]

hi folks, i was wondering if anyone knows the reasons behind these differences.

1/ Ikkyo, In Iwama O'sensei always taught omote as you enter in the same foot so the space between you and uke is for uke to fall into. In the Iwama dojo there is an original copy of Budo(not the modern one by stevens and doshu), There is a section on Ikkyo that O-sensei explains this in ikkyo that you enter in same foot and change direction to lead uke off balance.

But in say the all the different Hombu styles most ive seen enter with the back foot and go straight through, I fnd this very diifcult to undrerstand as i always feel im beig pushed away rather than my balance being broken(Im not saying its wrong just i dont understand)

2/ Why oh why does nobody in styles execpt Iwama yoshinkan ever Ki-ai?
When your in Iwama you get murdered if you dont use proper ki-ai with everything. I cant think of any other art that does not use some kind of KIai.(execpt taichi somtimes)

O-sensei is so famous for his ki-ai in the Iwama village. The storys are endless, there is writing by O-sensei were he says that martial art without Ki-ai is a dead art. Any ideas on this?

Now both these reasons have been explained to me by japanese people as being kisshumura and tohei's idea as part of the big change they introduced to the hombu. Any ideas please.

[Virtuous]

1.) I have been taught both, and really have no prefrence, I like them both equally.

2.) as for ki-ai , no idea. I dont unless it is in conjunction with an atemi.

[DexterTCN]

Ikkyo/ikkajo/first thingy/osh taosh or whatever....

It's more about moving from the hips than about which leg you use. Using the outside leg is good against a static opponent, using the inside leg is better against a moving opponent.

Outside leg rotates him horizontally, inside leg rotates him vertically. Not the be-all and end-all of ikkyo but a fair answer surely.

As for Ki-ai - http://kannagara.org/AikiOKami.htm
is probably closer to what O Sensei was trying to teach.

Does everyone remember the story of the Master who achieved enlightenment....

and just as he did, he stubbed his toe on a rock and hopped around in pain.

The next day he got up from his bed, went out into the garden...and saw all of his students kicking their toes on rocks in order to become enlightened?

[aikiwolfie]

LMAO .. nice story dexter.

As for the Ikkyo I think it's a matter of horses for courses. I've noticed when I enter with the front foot my uke takes a more direct root to the mat. When I enter with the back foot my uke is flung out more (if that makes sense).

As for the kiai thing. I don't have a clue.

[aikiscotsman]

Thanks for that info guys, im still confused about the ikkyo. for example
in the most basic tech ie shomen ikkyo. when tori raises shomen into ukes face and uke raises to defend as tori use this defence to make ikkyo, when ever some one steps through here with there back leg they dont seem to cut my arm out for ikkyo instead keep pushing my arm straight through me. my balance is never been taking and i always want to walk away.

I heard in Japan that one of the reasons for the stepping through with the back leg is that you are trying to kick the uke with the back leg to get them off balance.
Perhaps it would be more affective if the toriwas to cut ukes arm out and down a but sooner before they step right through me? as Ikkyo is only really an exercise as the fist tech to underdstand conection and it is to immobilise through the elbow. im sure there are some good schools that will really take me off balance but i have not found one yet.
Any ideas on this.

[Budd]

Just a quick thought . . .

Aikiscotsman, it sounds like when they enter for the ikkyo off of the back leg, there's some collision and they're trying to force an omote entry, when what they should be doing is using the momentum and resistance they encounter to turn into an ura.

Of course, I could be off (well, we already know I'm off, right? :p) . . .

[aikiscotsman]

In a way i totally agree BUDD, but then how do you make omot then by stepping through with the back leg if all i feel is beig pushed back and not being taken of balance? this is the part that really confuses me.

[Budd]

I don't know that it's something that can be forced (that in itself seems to contradict aiki-principles), but maybe it's in the way he's entering. If he's clashing because he's not effecting any kuzushi on the entry, then he might need to re-examine where he's targeting or what he's trying to do specifically on his entry. The switch into ura that I mentioned previously, is usually something that's done as a henka when uke either jams me, or I jam myself on a poor entry. But I'm still always going for an omote.

[aikiwolfie]

When you feel your self being pushed away, do you feel the weight of the push more on the upper part of your body or is it more evenly spread?

Where the weight of the push is on the upper part of the body I've found that tori is taking ukes' elbow too far towards the head, creating an over extention on toris' part.

Where the weight of the push is more evenly spread toris angle of entry seems to be too shalow.

I hope this makes sense I'm strugleing with the Japanese terminology.

[aikiscotsman]

Its not a question of top or bottom part that bothers me. they are coming pushing straight through meand not opening out to to lead me off balance. The main point im trying to say is that me balance is always fine when tori steps through with the back leg which just pushes me back and not cuting me out and off balance

[Budd]

Then I think they're likely attacking your center with their center, hence, all you do is move with it (and, yes, there are attacks in aikido). It's probably not your place to show this to them, unless you are or have permission from the instructor, but what they probably need to do is clarify for themselves exactly where they're directing their intent on the entry. If it's your center and you're not being obtuse and over-resisting or conversely not giving them something to work from, then they need to re-target.

[aikiwolfie]

Try doing the technique at a snails pace and speed it up gradually. See if you can figure out where tori is going wrong.

[DexterTCN]

Which leg do you use in suwari-waza? :)

[aikiscotsman]

Its the same in Sawari waza as tachi waza, i enter with the back leg after ive taken ukes balance so i can take uke to the pin, if i enter with back leg before taking ukes balance its very very easy to be thrown or uke to walk out off

[aikiscotsman]

Another problem i have when having ikkyo put on me by entering direct with back leg is aswell as feeling like im pushed back and not having my balance taken isi always feel i can grab the back leg as it is right next to me and i have all the balance in the world. I was trying to work it out at another club last night, and every time some entered with back leg this same thing would happen. Now if tori was to take my balance before entering with back foot then i would remain off balance to the ground.