Would your style be able to compete with Ju Jitsu?

[Shuto uchi]

I have a friend at work who trains in Ju Jitsu, he seems to think that Karate styles are a joke saying Grapplers always win the pay per view events. I study Shito Ryu and I think our style could compete well with Ju Jitsu, let's here your comments.

[hedgehogey]

Here we go.

Well I think the best way to find out would be to watch the events themselves. Ask your friend to show you royce vs minoki uchihara and ron van clief. Then watch the "gracie in action" tapes. Those all show jujitsu vs karate in no rules matches.

In addition, here is a bjjist vs a 1st dan in shotokan karate:

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?s=&name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=14

Draw your own conclusions.

[Radok]

Just watch UFC. Let's just say it's not always the grapplers winning now.The strikers seem to be making a comeback Even a wrestler I was watching it with said they seemed to have the upper hand.

[hedgehogey]

Nowadays both grappling and striking skills are neccesary to compete.

But one thing remains certain: Place a pure grappler against a pure striker and 999 out of 1000 times the grappler will win.

[Guy Mendiola]

It depends on the practitioner on the style of the art like striker vs. grappler, I like grappling and all(mosty BJJ) but I think a striking practitoner would win and in some striking arts they teach grappling.

[TheMachine]

you have to remember that a striker trains to strike and not to grapple that is why when a grappler takes a striker down, the striker is now a fish out of water

[iolair]

I have 17 years experience of Karate and Kickboxing, but took up Ju Jitsu around 6 months ago...

It takes your grappler opponent a second to close the gap and start to grapple. That gives you one, maybe two, chances to get in a sufficiently devastating strike to finish the fight. Miss that opportunity and suddenly you're lost at sea in the mysterious world of grappling...

So, if you want to compete against grapplers or grapplers/strikers, you need to be VERY good at consistently delivering powerful finishing blows. Otherwise I'm afraid you're at a major disadvantage. If you can't gain godlike striking abilites, the alternatives are
a) live with the fact that your art does not cover every eventuality
b) take a grappling style as well as Karate

[Posiview]

Why does the karate guy close the gap? I thought as a karate practicioner he'd keep his distance so he could use kicks and punches.

[Chris.B]

Our style of karate, has Jujitsu in it...we don't learn all of JuJitsu but at a higher level you do learn some.

[hedgehogey]

Our style of karate, has Jujitsu in it...we don't learn all of JuJitsu but at a higher level you do learn some.

Odd, because karate and jiujitsu are DIFFERENT ARTS.

[ranger]

Would your style be able to compete with Ju Jitsu?

ofcors. karate also has defense against any other art.

[hedgehogey]

ofcors. karate also has defense against any other art.

All available evidence would suggest that's not true.

[StorDuff]

We practice a lot of grappling as well as striking in my karate style. As my sensei often says 'real fighting is grappling not boxing' so we have defense against it :o

[hedgehogey]

Are you sure what you're doing is karate? It doesn't sound like any karate i've ever heard of.

Not that that's BAD, mind you.

[Mike O'Leary]

I have a friend at work who trains in Ju Jitsu, he seems to think that Karate styles are a joke saying Grapplers always win the pay per view events. I study Shito Ryu and I think our style could compete well with Ju Jitsu, let's here your comments.



This is the age old question: It has been proven time and time again that it is not the art but the practicioner that makes or breaks the situation. Simply put each of the styles in competing with each other need a set up or opportunity to occur.

The grappler needs to get hold of the striker, the striker needs to access the grappler. So you see the answer is not what style is better but which participant.........by the way........pay per view events have rules so once again a sporting event really isnt telling the truth of the arts. If anyone really thinks that pay per view events are not planned scheduled and set up to simply make money then you need to double check the TV guide. Interesting that these events fit into the time frame eh? I'm not saying there rigged but the combatants are chosen much in the same manner as WWF.

Mike O'leary

[FIST_of_LEGEND]

sure it's karate

Besides grappling Technique, there also anti-grappling technique against the opponent to make him not using the grappling and concentrate in the strickes technique.


As long there is up grading in the ju jitsu schools, there also the same thing for karate

[hedgehogey]

The grappler needs to get hold of the striker, the striker needs to access the grappler. So you see the answer is not what style is better but which participant


This is all true. BUT. It still remains that 999 times out of 1000 a pure grappler will beat a pure striker.


.........by the way........pay per view events have rules so once again a sporting event really isnt telling the truth of the arts.

Not all of them do. The ones that have rules are the minimum rules to keep the sport legal.
It's certainly a lot more realistic of a test than point sparring.


If anyone really thinks that pay per view events are not planned scheduled and set up to simply make money then you need to double check the TV guide.

DAHHUR, I did not know that! Proffesional fighters fighting for money? Imagine that.

Interesting that these events fit into the time frame eh? I'm not saying there rigged but the combatants are chosen much in the same manner as WWF.

WHAT?! The wwf chooses it's performers on the basis of showmanship and ability to execute complicated but useless moves (much like a forms competition).

The ufc chooses it's fighters based on their previous matches.

[Nrv4evr]

ur friends a bit arrogant, isn't he? i'd like to show introduce him to my hook punch once in a while...but seriously, he shouldn't be so stereotypical. the winner is the one with greater skill, not the better art. i think yoda touched on this..."i would is a lot different from i have"

BTW, the reason grappling is so popular is because they have fake fighters duke it out on tv. karate is real fighting. wwe wrestlers is just soap opera for men. not to degrade jiu-jitsu. just your friend. :Angel:

[Mike O'Leary]

This is all true. BUT. It still remains that 999 times out of 1000 a pure grappler will beat a pure striker.



Not all of them do. The ones that have rules are the minimum rules to keep the sport legal.
It's certainly a lot more realistic of a test than point sparring.



DAHHUR, I did not know that! Proffesional fighters fighting for money? Imagine that.



WHAT?! The wwf chooses it's performers on the basis of showmanship and ability to execute complicated but useless moves (much like a forms competition).

The ufc chooses it's fighters based on their previous matches.



You must be right...after all the fights you talk of the promoters dont care if nobody watches do they.. they dont care about showmanship at all... whats a few hundred thousand dollars in promotion fees....nope, doesnt matter at all....

Its a business............ its not about who is the toughest..its about who brings in the money.... as to grapplers taking a striker down ....... where did you get your facts?

Once again.. it is not the style but the stylist......

Mike O'leary

[hedgehogey]

BTW, the reason grappling is so popular is because they have fake fighters duke it out on tv. karate is real fighting.

Go call mark coleman a fake fighter. I dare you.

[hedgehogey]

You must be right...after all the fights you talk of the promoters dont care if nobody watches do they.. they dont care about showmanship at all... whats a few hundred thousand dollars in promotion fees....nope, doesnt matter at all....

Sure, showmanship helps. But showmanship means jack diddly if you haven't won any fights before.

That's why UFC means ultimate fighting championship not unreal flipping contest


Its a business............ its not about who is the toughest..its about who brings in the money.... as to grapplers taking a striker down ....... where did you get your facts?


Pretty much every vale tudo event ever.

Pure striker vs pure grappler, pure grappler almost always wins.

Once again.. it is not the style but the stylist......

[Strafio]

Pure striker vs pure grappler, pure grappler almost always wins.

Hmmm.
The guy in the video clearly didn't know what he was up against else he'd have kept himself a kicks distance.

A good striker can deliver a powerful blow or hit a pressure point before a grappler can get a grip. Ofcourse, some grapplers can catch these strikes into a grip...

It's whoever knows their game the best.


But yeah, it's best to know a balance.
Our Tae Kwon Do class does some basic take-downs at higher levels and I've started to look at Aikido.

[Guy Mendiola]

Strikers know how to fake an attack like a punch or kick or shall I put it like feint attacks that would throw a grappler off guard but the grappler can catch the strike and put it into a submission lock.

[Mike O'Leary]

Go call mark coleman a fake fighter. I dare you.


Never said anyone was fake..... just said they were chosen to bring in the bucks...... Way back when.... the gracies were running these things they relinquished control when it was discovered they were screening the fighters they were allowing in. You tell me the definition of a fix and of promoting a particular fighter.....

Nobody said they were fake.... just it is all manipulated to make bucks...


Mike O'Leary

[Strafio]

Strikers know how to fake an attack like a punch or kick or shall I put it like feint attacks that would throw a grappler off guard but the grappler can catch the strike and put it into a submission lock.

But even when a grappler catches a strike, they'd have to perform a quick lock before the next one came in. Catch my right and I'd still have a left and two feet to break the grip with, which you could do with a well aimed strike to the face or the neck, or a pressure point.

It would be a matter of skill and experience.
You'd need skill to execute your moves quickly and precisely before your opponent got you, an experience would help you deal with your opponents style.

A grappler who's experienced against strikers will know how to take a couple of hits before taking advantage with a surprise counter while an experienced Striker would know that if a limb gets caught then the other three need to go crazy to set it free.

The Karate blackbelt in Hedgehog's video hadn't fought a grappler before.

[Nrv4evr]

just saw the video. (yes i'm slow) that black belt, as good as he was, had absolutely no adapating skills at all. i know it's easier said than done, but i doubt a jiu-jitsu guy could take a heel smash to the back. never fought like that before (and i hope to god i never will), but there were so many openings that he could have just cracked the guys neck....

[hedgehogey]

just saw the video. (yes i'm slow) that black belt, as good as he was, had absolutely no adapating skills at all.

That's because he DIDNT KNOW ANY GRAPPLING.

i know it's easier said than done, but i doubt a jiu-jitsu guy could take a heel smash to the back.

I get heel smashed in the back all the time. AND I LIKE IT!!

Seriously, I just did vale tudo sparring with a TKD guy today. His flicky kicks did not prevent takedowns. Tapped him four times (HURF ME SO MACHO). And i'm not good at all at BJJ!

Any BJJ school will prove it to you. *I* will prove it to you myself if you're in my area. That crap doesn't work.


never fought like that before (and i hope to god i never will), but there were so many openings that he could have just cracked the guys neck....

Umm...no. No there weren't.

I have on hand many other videos where the same thing happens.

[Nrv4evr]

That's because he DIDNT KNOW ANY GRAPPLING.



um....any self respecting martial artist would be able to figure out how to adapt. if you're living by what your teacher tells you, and not your own ideas, then you're a bit too stiff. i suggest yoga.

[The Wastrel]

I have 17 years experience of Karate and Kickboxing, but took up Ju Jitsu around 6 months ago...

It takes your grappler opponent a second to close the gap and start to grapple. That gives you one, maybe two, chances to get in a sufficiently devastating strike to finish the fight. Miss that opportunity and suddenly you're lost at sea in the mysterious world of grappling...

So, if you want to compete against grapplers or grapplers/strikers, you need to be VERY good at consistently delivering powerful finishing blows. Otherwise I'm afraid you're at a major disadvantage. If you can't gain godlike striking abilites, the alternatives are
a) live with the fact that your art does not cover every eventuality
b) take a grappling style as well as Karate


This guy is so t3h korrekt it hurts my eyes to gaze upon this glory.

Why would any karate people get so defensive about Brazilian Jujitsu? It's based on a Japanese art.

The simple fact is that the pure grappler and the pure striker are essentially even in standing. Their goals are different, but they each know exactly what they are supposed to do in a standing position. On the ground, the pure striker is clueless. End of story.

[The Wastrel]

um....any self respecting martial artist would be able to figure out how to adapt. if you're living by what your teacher tells you, and not your own ideas, then you're a bit too stiff. i suggest yoga.

Are you kidding? In the middle of a fight? Huh?

[Andy Murray]

This guy is so t3h korrekt it hurts my eyes to gaze upon this glory.

Why would any karate people get so defensive about Brazilian Jujitsu? It's based on a Japanese art.

The simple fact is that the pure grappler and the pure striker are essentially even in standing. Their goals are different, but they each know exactly what they are supposed to do in a standing position. On the ground, the pure striker is clueless. End of story.

I get the second part, but a pure grappler is on equal footing while upright???

Care to elucidate?

[Nrv4evr]

yes, in the middle of a fight...you could probably figure out how to hack repeatedly at his ribs. unless he's a masochist. then ur screwed. ;)

[Nrv4evr]

I get the second part, but a pure grappler is on equal footing while upright???

Care to elucidate?

it's not like they're going to be standing up the entire time. the bjj guy would probably make an effort to bring the other down. depending on what happens, it could end up in submission, or mr. bjj could have a nasty tooth through his lip.

[The Wastrel]

Andy,
A grappler has a full range of techniques that allow him to deliver damage standing, or put his opponent down. There's no punch that will make you and your opponent stand up.

[Nrv4evr]

Andy,
A grappler has a full range of techniques that allow him to deliver damage standing.

hmm...point taken. still, i just don't think that black belt was right for the job. his confidence looked lacking. and when all else fails, bite. lol

[Andy Murray]

Andy,
A grappler has a full range of techniques that allow him to deliver damage standing, or put his opponent down. There's no punch that will make you and your opponent stand up.

So your grappler knows strikes too?

[Nrv4evr]

So your grappler knows strikes too?

i guess he meant arm locks, but i'm not too sure if it would work...

[The Wastrel]

Two things I've learned in this life:

1. Biting is overrated. My whole life I've known how to bite. The first time I tried grappling, I never thought, "Shoot man. I could just bite my way out of this." Only those who simply don't know what they're talking about could believe that.

2. People who talk about "Glocks" probably have never even seen a real firearm, let alone fired one.

[The Wastrel]

So your grappler knows strikes too?

*Sighs*

A double-leg takedown is executed from a standing position, no? The entire sport of competition Judo is about grappling from a standing position, right? Greco-Roman wrestling?

[Nrv4evr]

Two things I've learned in this life:

1. Biting is overrated. My whole life I've known how to bite. The first time I tried grappling, I never thought, "Shoot man. I could just bite my way out of this." Only those who simply don't know what they're talking about could believe that.

2. People who talk about "Glocks" probably have never even seen a real firearm, let alone fired one.

three things i've learned in my life.

1). there are going to be people you meet who you hate.
2). it's called a sig you ignoramus. who said nething about realism. i don't
dedicate my time to the study of guns.
3). sarcasm, my friend, is a beautiful thing. look into it.

[Andy Murray]

*Sighs*

A double-leg takedown is executed from a standing position, no? The entire sport of competition Judo is about grappling from a standing position, right? Greco-Roman wrestling?

You were talking about standup?

You mentioned Pure grappler, vs Pure striker?

Yeah, the Grappler will shoot or whatever.

Yeah the Pure Striker won't handle that.

I just wondered what the pure Striker was doing all the time they were both stood up?

Knitting?

Origami?

:D

[Andy Murray]

three things i've learned in my life.

1). there are going to be people you meet who you hate.
2). it's called a sig you ignoramus. who said nething about realism. i don't
dedicate my time to the study of guns.
3). sarcasm, my friend, is a beautiful thing. look into it.

Ease up on the slightly personal posts my friend.

The sarcasm pass is mine for the weekend! ;)

[The Wastrel]

Andy,
Grappling is not synonymous with groundfighting. The question isn't what either of them are doing. I'm simply pointing out that the "pure" grappler is not completely out of his element when standing, while the striker basically is once the fight has gone to the ground.

I don't think I know a grappler who doesn't want to learn strikes. On the other hand...


Nrv4evr,
Was that a personal attack? I, sir, am shocked. I hope to speak with you again after your sin-binning.

[Nrv4evr]

Two things I've learned in this life:

1. Biting is overrated. My whole life I've known how to bite. The first time I tried grappling, I never thought, "Shoot man. I could just bite my way out of this." Only those who simply don't know what they're talking about could believe that.

2. People who talk about "Glocks" probably have never even seen a real firearm, let alone fired one.

i'm sorry, was that a personal attack? i was too damn busy firing a glock. (read the text under my name. that's why i do this. it's a birth defect.)

[The Wastrel]

:cry:

Please sir, you must desist! I cannot handle your biting wit! I am at the limit of my tolerance for personal insults to my dignity. Any more...and I will surely die.

[Andy Murray]

Nrv4evr,
Was that a personal attack? I, sir, am shocked. I hope to speak with you again after your sin-binning.

Thought we'd moved on Christian?

I'm simply pointing out that the "pure" grappler is not completely out of his element when standing.

Didn't say he was. I was just picking up on your earlier comment, and wondering if the odd fight finishing hook or whatever might land on the "pure" Grappler before his corner explained what was happening? *shrug*

I don't think I know a grappler who doesn't want to learn strikes. On the other hand...

"The times they are a changing", mentioning a tired old record, for a tired old record. ;)

[Andy Murray]

:cry:

Please sir, you must desist! I cannot handle your biting wit! I am at the limit of my tolerance for personal insults to my dignity. Any more...and I will surely die.

Take it the exams are finished?

Check your Yahoo!

[Nrv4evr]

:cry:

Please sir, you must desist! I cannot handle your biting wit! I am at the limit of my tolerance for personal insults to my dignity. Any more...and I will surely die.

good acting...lol k i'll shut up....jeez it takes 5 posts to get my ass kicked...

[Mike O'Leary]

This guy is so t3h korrekt it hurts my eyes to gaze upon this glory.

Why would any karate people get so defensive about Brazilian Jujitsu? It's based on a Japanese art.

The simple fact is that the pure grappler and the pure striker are essentially even in standing. Their goals are different, but they each know exactly what they are supposed to do in a standing position. On the ground, the pure striker is clueless. End of story.


Of course the reverse is applicable.... so you see if the striker is better at avoidance than the grappler is moving in........... were back to square one.... fact is... its the fighter not the style that is better.

Mike O'Leary....

[hedgehogey]

Of course the reverse is applicable.... so you see if the striker is better at avoidance than the grappler is moving in........... were back to square one.... fact is... its the fighter not the style that is better.

Noone has succesfully used avoidance/body position/range control/whatever in vale tudo.

Primarily strikers use defensive grappling moves like sprawling to avoid being taken down or tied up.

You can talk theory, but the evidence shows that even the best pure strikers WILL get taken down.

And bruce lee did not write "its the fighter not the style that is better" to justify training like a wuss.

[Mike O'Leary]

Noone has succesfully used avoidance/body position/range control/whatever in vale tudo.

Primarily strikers use defensive grappling moves like sprawling to avoid being taken down or tied up.

You can talk theory, but the evidence shows that even the best pure strikers WILL get taken down.

And bruce lee did not write "its the fighter not the style that is better" to justify training like a wuss.


No one where? In the set up, commercial, pay per view challenges you talk of...hmmmmmmmm lets see... in your 20 years of life... i guess you must have a pretty good handle on all this. Once again... got any statistics?


Mike O'Leary

[Mike O'Leary]

Noone has succesfully used avoidance/body position/range control/whatever in vale tudo.

Primarily strikers use defensive grappling moves like sprawling to avoid being taken down or tied up.

You can talk theory, but the evidence shows that even the best pure strikers WILL get taken down.

And bruce lee did not write "its the fighter not the style that is better" to justify training like a wuss.



I find it interesting that people who support the ultimate fighting challenge and pay per view fights would choose the karate forum to come in and challenge the traditional arts.

At least if you do provide some documentation when you make statements. But my suggestion is that if all you are lookin for is an argument why not switch forum's.......... ?????????????????

I have been training in traditional Okinawan karate and kobudo since 1981 so if you wernt born then perhaps you should move on or at least back up your statements.........

It seems popular lately to study a few years and switch styles under the guise of "gaining" a well rounded experience. All the founders of every style be it mixed martial arts or grappling or striking.. have studied more than one style for many years before they branched off with their own versions......

Recognize each path on the mountain as one leading to the top, and that there is more than one path, not just the one that you are travelling today.

Mike O'Leary

[47Ronin]

Anyone can throw a punch, even though they just study pure ground they can throw a fist. And anyone can take on natural instinct to wrap your arm around someones head and try to cause pain to them. So to say a "pure grappler" vs "pure striker" is pointless.

[Mike O'Leary]

Anyone can throw a punch, even though they just study pure ground they can throw a fist. And anyone can take on natural instinct to wrap your arm around someones head and try to cause pain to them. So to say a "pure grappler" vs "pure striker" is pointless.


Hey Ronin... I'll back you up in a bar fight any day..hahahhahaha well said.

Mike O'Leary

[Adam]

I really enjoy huge, sweeping generalizations that aren't backed up by facts. Please hedgehogey, find some facts to back your claims up. And "It happened in the UFC" isn't much of an argument, especially if you can't quote where and when. But if we DO need to quote UFC as the ultimate proof of fighting skills, Mirko Filipovic vs Waterman must have been that 1 in 1000 fights where the striker won then eh?

I sure am glad I train in grappling! I'm now guaranteed to totally destroy any boxer or kickboxer I'd care to name!

[Andy Murray]

Ah but the pure grappler has to watch out for the purer grappler, and he has to look out for the purerer grappler and he........:D

[2ral]

in our wing chun classes we do grappling occasionally...since our master is proficent at bjj as well as wing chun. So some grappling techniques are taught and also defences and countermeasures against them. From what Ive seen and it looks like most of the people here agree on this one...if you let a grappler bring you to the ground its over unless you're lucky. kinda depends on the fighters also though, but if they're evenly matched the grappler would win if the fight was taken to the floor.

[Adam]

Knowing "some" grappling techniques is hardly enough to counter a guy that trains grappling all the time. It might be enough to stop the occasional drunken tackle in real fights though.

[Hugh]

I find it interesting that people who support the ultimate fighting challenge and pay per view fights would choose the karate forum to come in and challenge the traditional arts.

Because, my friend, some MMA people are so obsessed with proving that TMAs are completely useless that they'll take every opportunity to say so. Don't ask me why. Inferiority complex perhaps?

You can talk theory, but the evidence shows that even the best pure strikers WILL get taken down

Change the bleedin' record mate. By now there are tribes of Inuits, thousands of miles away from civilisation, that know where you stand on this issue.

[Andy Murray]

Because, my friend, some MMA people are so obsessed with proving that TMAs are completely useless that they'll take every opportunity to say so. Don't ask me why. Inferiority complex perhaps?



Change the bleedin' record mate. By now, there are tribes of Inuits, thousands of miles away from civilisation, that know where you stand on this issue.

*Andy mentally tags Hugh for the 2004 Map Awards. ;)

Bwahahahaaaaaaaa :p

[CKava]

I don't think I know a grappler who doesn't want to learn strikes. On the other hand...
Well given that any time anyone learning a striking art mentions that they incorporate some grappling into their training you immediately label them as inferior grapplers and tend to suggest that they are just messing around with grappling surely the reverse holds true? Oh no wait I forgot grapplers are the purest and most honorable fighters in the land when they train they train hard, unlike all the other sissys! So off course they probably even end up better at striking than all the 'pure' strikers who are probably busy prancing around doing point sparring...

[jimmytofu]

..
Seriously, I just did vale tudo sparring with a TKD guy today. His flicky kicks did not prevent takedowns. Tapped him four times (HURF ME SO MACHO). And i'm not good at all at BJJ!


Proof ..please supply. ..must have proof. :D

[Kwan Jang]

-In it's original form as Okinawan/Ryukyu Kempo (pre-Itosu's school children's art), karate was composed equally of striking (kyusho-jitsu) and grappling (tuite-jitsu). Some have always practiced it in this form and many have revived this part of the practice. Being a "pure grappler" or "pure striker" is merely bragging about how incomplete a fighter you are IMO. But UFC/Vale Tudo is a limited source to judge from. Even more important than rules is the intent of the fighters. Grapplers can attack joints and neck and other vital targets for submission, whereas a strike there would maim or kill. Not appropriate for a sporting event.
-Another factor that some of the grappling contingent is ignoring is that there is quite a bit of ground striking, just as there is considerable stand up grappling. Both IMO are as effective and neccesary as their more popular counterparts to be a complete fighter.
-I really have to disagree with the stance taken by Hedge on a pure striker being outmatched by a pure grappler. I teach submission grappling and jujitsu (Small circle and BJJ) in our cirriculum, as well as arts known for their striking such as TKD, Muay Thai and Kenpo. From both my own experience and watching students as they progress, any domination by grapplers is mostly occuring because of the element of surprise. In the case of a striker being mentally prepared for the tactics of the grappler (or at least as prepared as the grappler is for the striker's tactics), the edge seems to disappear. In the early NHB competitions, the grapplers were overall on a much higher skill level than the strikers and were much more prepared to face and neutralize the strikers tactics. Other than this, all other factors being even, the only real edge I see a grappler having is a greater resource of target areas (joints, neck, ect) for reasons I've already addressed.

[Shuto uchi]

When I first posted this thread I was hoping it wouldn't turn into a name calling contest, and I thank you guys for not making it one.

As to my question, I wanted to see peoples opinion of Ju Jitsu VS. Karate application and which was the better style when they go head to head against one another, and I liked alot of the answers I got, but one thing that I constantly see in people's comparisons, as with my Ju Jitsu friends at work is that they usually do comparisons from UFC events or other simular events, and not street fighting, because as far as sport goes i think Ju Jitsu has the advantage and here's why.

I really feel that these events take away alot from the Art that the karateka learn, because alot of what we practice can't be used in the octagon, I think that you would see a greater percentage of wins for the Karate practicioner against the grappler on real street corners if the karate students were stabbing fingers into eye sockets, biting, groin kicking , using throws and things that we learn as part of our art that we cannot use in these competition. I just really feel that these pay per view tournaments are set up rule wise to the advantage of grapplers.

I agree with one persons idea, that in head to head competition it really is more about the skill of the two people fighting than the styles. Thanks, and keep them coming

[hedgehogey]

Proof ..please supply. ..must have proof.

Come to my gym. Cmon, it's tkd, that's not farfetched at all.

[hedgehogey]

I really enjoy huge, sweeping generalizations that aren't backed up by facts. Please hedgehogey, find some facts to back your claims up. And "It happened in the UFC" isn't much of an argument, especially if you can't quote where and when. But if we DO need to quote UFC as the ultimate proof of fighting skills, Mirko Filipovic vs Waterman must have been that 1 in 1000 fights where the striker won then eh?


1: See the entire early careers of royce gracie and dan severn.

2: Crocop is not a pure striker. See his highlight video and his fight with silva to see him grapple.

[hedgehogey]

Grapplers can attack joints and neck and other vital targets for submission, whereas a strike there would maim or kill. Not appropriate for a sporting event.


Umm...that's perfectly legal in vale tudo.


-Another factor that some of the grappling contingent is ignoring is that there is quite a bit of ground striking, just as there is considerable stand up grappling. Both IMO are as effective and neccesary as their more popular counterparts to be a complete fighter.

Ever heard of ground and pound?


-I really have to disagree with the stance taken by Hedge on a pure striker being outmatched by a pure grappler. I teach submission grappling and jujitsu (Small circle and BJJ) in our cirriculum, as well as arts known for their striking such as TKD, Muay Thai and Kenpo. From both my own experience and watching students as they progress, any domination by grapplers is mostly occuring because of the element of surprise. In the case of a striker being mentally prepared for the tactics of the grappler (or at least as prepared as the grappler is for the striker's tactics), the edge seems to disappear. In the early NHB competitions, the grapplers were overall on a much higher skill level than the strikers and were much more prepared to face and neutralize the strikers tactics. Other than this, all other factors being even, the only real edge I see a grappler having is a greater resource of target areas (joints, neck, ect) for reasons I've already addressed.

Hell, theoretically you're correct. I don't know WHY it happens that way, but every time we see a pure grappler vs pure striker it's always the grappler that wins.

By the way, which gracie or machado are you under?

[hedgehogey]

I really feel that these events take away alot from the Art that the karateka learn, because alot of what we practice can't be used in the octagon, I think that you would see a greater percentage of wins for the Karate practicioner against the grappler on real street corners if the karate students were stabbing fingers into eye sockets,

BS. It's never happened. The kung fu guy who challenged john marsh tried and failed. The shotokan guy in that tape tried and failed. Gerard Gordeau tried TWICE and failed both times.

You forget that in the early days of the ufc there truly were no rules, and in vale tudo in brazil and russia there are still few to none.


biting,

The grappler is better eqquiped to bite. WE can choose when and where to bite because we have superior position and can control your head. If you try to bite from underneath mount you will get your face pounded in.

Biting is not a learned technique (unless you do kinu mutai).

Anyway, by the time you're biting you're already in grappling range.


groin kicking , using throws

Throws? THROWS?! Are you saying you're better at throwing than an experienced grappler?


and things that we learn as part of our art that we cannot use in these competition.

Excuses excuses. You know, when I learned shotokan we pretty much only did punching and kicking. So why is okinawan karate suddenly dracula-do?

We can do all those dirty tactics too.


I just really feel that these pay per view tournaments are set up rule wise to the advantage of grapplers.

Wrong. The rounds and referee interventions are there to favor STRIKERS. The general public finds grappling contests boring, which is why those were introduced.

[Strafio]

The point is Hedgehogy, is that to win a fight quickly with a strike requires a knock-out - dangerous techniques which are often banned in contests.

To win a fight with a grapple?
Once you've got them in a decent lock then it's over, and you don't have to cause any serious damage to beat them.


In the street, the striker has no holding back in what techniques to use so could deliver a devastating blow in one go, the sort used to break with.
The grappler would fight the same way, the only difference is that once they had the lock, they might require more force than a submission.

See the difference?


Anyway, if a Striker know's how a grappler is going to attack him, he can be ready to strike before he gets a good grip and use pushing attacks to keep the distance.
The example you showed us had a blackbelt who'd NEVER fought a proper grappler before, that much was clear.

But yeah, a true fighter wants both.

I'm learning Aikido because I want to be able to defeat an opponent without rendering them unconscious, breaking a linb, drawing blood or leaving heavy bruising at the least! ;-D

[hedgehogey]

The point is Hedgehogy, is that to win a fight quickly with a strike requires a knock-out - dangerous techniques which are often banned in contests.

Umm...where in the ufc does it say knockouts are illegal? KNOCKOUTS ARE ENCOURAGED.


To win a fight with a grapple?
Once you've got them in a decent lock then it's over, and you don't have to cause any serious damage to beat them.

But you could if you wanted to.


In the street, the striker has no holding back in what techniques to use so could deliver a devastating blow in one go, the sort used to break with.
The grappler would fight the same way, the only difference is that once they had the lock, they might require more force than a submission.

Let's see these dangerous techniques in true vale tudo. Better yet, go challenge a grappler to a no rules fight.



See the difference?

No. This "deadly techniques" argument is fallacious and dead.


Anyway, if a Striker know's how a grappler is going to attack him, he can be ready to strike before he gets a good grip and use pushing attacks to keep the distance.

ARGH.
First of all, grapplers are much better at pushing than strikers.

Second of all, again, look at the early days of the UFC. The strikers knew what was going to happen. They still couldn't prevent it.
That's what a good grappler will do to you. He'll call out the technique he's going to use beforehand. And there won't be a damn thing you can do to prevent it.


The example you showed us had a blackbelt who'd NEVER fought a proper grappler before, that much was clear.

How is that relevant? Do we have any evidence the grappler had ever fought a striker before either?

But yeah, a true fighter wants both.


I'm learning Aikido because I want to be able to defeat an opponent without rendering them unconscious, breaking a linb, drawing blood or leaving heavy bruising at the least! ;-D

That doesn't leave a lot of options...

[johndoch]

Firstly I would like to say that all this talk about pure strikers/grapplers is a non starter for me, because there is no such thing.

What I want to know is are we talking about sports or streets?

Grappling and striking can prepare you for a lot of situations but if you've not got the bottle outside the training hall then you'll be screwed either way.

Also don't tell me that grappling or striking arts suddenly gives every practioner of their art whether it be MMA or TMA a secret formula for having what it takes to take care of themselves where there are no rules.

It seems to me that there is to much emphasis on sporting shows like UFC and Pride being the be all and end all of the fighting game. Do you guys not see that the changes in "RULES" in these sports are trying to even up the grapplers and strikers. Introduction of gloves, shorter rounds and refs making fighters get back to their feet are all designed to balance the sport between grapplers/strikers. Fair enough if they did away with rules altogether we might see a truer reflection of a street fight :rolleyes:

[hedgehogey]

Fair enough if they did away with rules altogether we might see a truer reflection of a street fight

Or we might have ufc 1-3 all over again.

[johndoch]

No it would nt be UFC 1 - 2 at all.

Come on the first UFC's had loads of rules. No attacks to the eyes, throat groin, hair pulling, jumping on opponents throat/head, jumping after the REF has stopped it ;) .

In the UFC's Grapplers can pace themselves over the course of a fight to conserve energy in the safety that they are protected by RULES and no repercussions. Fighting on the street is not always like a UFC bout, it can look like it but its a different beast altogether.

[Andy Murray]

No it would nt be UFC 1 - 2 at all.

Come on the first UFC's had loads of rules. No attacks to the eyes, throat groin, hair pulling, jumping on opponents throat/head, jumping after the REF has stopped it ;) .

In the UFC's Grapplers can pace themselves over the course of a fight to conserve energy in the safety that they are protected by RULES and no repercussions. Fighting on the street is not always like a UFC bout, it can look like it but its a different beast altogether.

To save time;

[insert usual response]if you can't fight in a cage, what makes you think you can fight on the street?[/insert usual response]

[johndoch]

To save time;

[insert usual response]if you can't fight in a cage, what makes you think you can fight on the street?[/insert usual response]

:D Man I need to find out where that button is.

My answer to that would be

[insert usual response]if you can't fight on the street, what makes you think you can fight in a cage?[/insert usual response][/QUOTE] ;)

[hedgehogey]

Come on the first UFC's had loads of rules. No attacks to the eyes, throat groin, hair pulling, jumping on opponents throat/head, jumping after the REF has stopped it .

That's straight BS. The first few UFCs had NO rules. Gerard gordeau tried to eye gouge royce.

You would know that if you'd watched them.

Stomping on the head is actually a common strategy in mma. See vanderlei silva's fights.

[johndoch]

hahaha

come on tyson bit off part of holyfields ear does that mean its legal.

Have you ever seen someone bite someones nose off in the UFC. Get a life and grow up. If you think MMA's are truely NHB like on the street you seriously need to think about what you are saying.

Sure there were less rules back then but there were rules :rolleyes:

[Andy Murray]

This is where you go on to tell us how many fights you've had in cage and on street Hedge!

[CKava]

Um just for your own benefit hedgehogey I think if you reread the post you'll notice it states "after the REF has stopped it". I think his point wasn't that such things arent banned in the UFC (though a couple are now) but that in a street fight you dont usually have a referee to stop the fight...

For another example what about that UFC/Pride fight that ended after like 1 minute because the guys eye got hit- scratched cornea or something if I remember right? Isnt that a good example that things can just go wrong? As far as I recall there was no grappling in that bout just one or two punches traded and then the match was stopped...

[hedgehogey]

This is where you go on to tell us how many fights you've had in cage and on street Hedge!

10 on teh str33t.

0 in teh c4ge.

4 in submission grappling

2 in sport jiujitsu (with strikes)

but that in a street fight you dont usually have a referee to stop the fight...

Yep. And on Teh str33t, I don't stop the lock when you tap.


For another example what about that UFC/Pride fight that ended after like 1 minute because the guys eye got hit- scratched cornea or something if I remember right?

The only vale tudo fight where that happened that I remember was gordeau vs nakai. Gordeau gouged nakai's eye with his thumb. The fight was not stopped. Gordeau still lost.

Or possibly you mean the several fights were the bones around fighters eyes were broken by hard strikes.

[hedgehogey]

hahaha

come on tyson bit off part of holyfields ear does that mean its legal.

The UFC is NOT BOXING!


Have you ever seen someone bite someones nose off in the UFC.

No, but in the first few UFCs it would be perfectly legal. So, how many noses have you bitten off?


Get a life and grow up. If you think MMA's are truely NHB like on the street you seriously need to think about what you are saying.

Andy, please rectify this very personal attack.


Sure there were less rules back then but there were rules

How many times do I have to tell you, THERE WERE NO RULES?! The ref couldn't even stop the fight until the guy surrendered!

There was an incident where one fighter wanted to surrender but couldn't remember to tap and the referee was helpless to do anything as he was severely drubbed about the head and kneck area.

[CKava]

The only vale tudo fight where that happened that I remember was gordeau vs nakai. Gordeau gouged nakai's eye with his thumb. The fight was not stopped. Gordeau still lost.

Or possibly you mean the several fights were the bones around fighters eyes were broken by hard strikes.
Nope I dont mean any of those this is a fairly recent match- it was not an eye gouge or anything like that it was a punch that apparently scratched the surface of the guys eye and the match was stopped... I will go look for the details but it was a pretty highly anticipated match so I thought you would have heard of it.

[Andy Murray]

hahaha

come on tyson bit off part of holyfields ear does that mean its legal.

Have you ever seen someone bite someones nose off in the UFC. Get a life and grow up. If you think MMA's are truely NHB like on the street you seriously need to think about what you are saying.

Sure there were less rules back then but there were rules :rolleyes:

Easy John!

[Adam]

Those things were allowed, they just weren't done. If I recall correctly, you got docked a bit of your fight money for using dirty techniques in fighting, greed making a pretty good motivator not to do those things.

[CKava]

Here you go hedgehogey the main event in UFC 46 Randy Couture vs Vitor Belfort is stopped in less than a minute from an inadvertant "corneal abrasian" to Couture's eye. Vitor Belfort gains the championship (from Sherdog) Ive seen the video and it was caused by a seemingly harmless exchange of punches. And Im not trying to say this happens very often by the way...

[hedgehogey]

Gordeau. Gordeagordeaugordeau.

[hedgehogey]

Hmm...well, point taken. Refs have stopped fights for truly retarded things, especially with the smear campaigns against MMA that go on.

[Shuto uchi]

I really wish I hadn't posted this thread. Of course Karate people are going to defend their art and of course grapplers will defend grappling, I liked the posts, but now it seems like the topic is just going south.

I think all styles are interesting and have their upsides. I also wasn't trying to take a cheap shot at Ju Jitsu, or any other type of grappling. I wrestled from pee wee league in 2nd grade, all the way through 12th grade in high school and I know there is a definate science to it.

The friend who badgers me at work is really just trying to get me to drop my Shito-Ryu class and go to Roanoke College and take Ju Jitsu with him (both classes are on the same 2 nights each week) , but I really like the Karate forms I am learning and intend to stick with it, although the wrestler inside of me is very intrigued by alot of the moves my buddy shows me.

Once again I want to reitterate that I wasn't trying to start a topic to downgrade the grappling style, I guess the way I worded the original thread it seemed as if I were. Sorry

[ranger]

All available evidence would suggest that's not true.

then you have not seen all evidence.

[hedgehogey]

Ranger: Show me counterevidence then.

Shuto uchi: Why not take both classes?

[surgingshark]

I really wish I hadn't posted this thread. Of course Karate people are going to defend their art and of course grapplers will defend grappling, I liked the posts, but now it seems like the topic is just going south.

Don't be so hard on yourself. We all wish that things like these won't happen, but against all hope, they always do.

[Andy Murray]

Thread back on target or locked, which will it be?

Hedgehogey, it would save everyone a lot of time if you'd just simply post a thread of your own instead of hijacking other peoples.

How about;

"What's wrong with everybody else, by me?"

[hedgehogey]

Umm...this thread is about wether various styles could compete against jiujitsu. That appears to be what we were arguing about.

[Andy Murray]

We have discussions here, not arguements!

Thread locked.

If the thread originator wishes it to be re-opened, then please contact a Mod.