wingchun or jkd

[hotrod1]

hi there every one i'am quite knew to the arts but i hav been looking into starting either wing chun or jun fan jkd/kali but i'am not sure which one to comit my self to the sifu of the wing chun is william lai
he trained under a Chu Shong Tin and i have heard wingchun is quite a good street defence the jun fan instructor is a dave carnell if any one can give me any advice on the effectivness of these arts and if they have heard of the instructors thanks

[jroe52]

how much time do you plan and how long?

in the long run they would be both to do together. they have many options. wing chun it seems often has schools that are more about teaching rather then training, so you spar/shadowbox/excersize on your own. i don't know to much about jkd schools, but i know they are more adaptive and allow the MA to grow.

a year of wing chun would help your jkd down the road by helping to better understand basic moves, centerline, and some other things. jkd is amazing, but is different.

someday i would like to learn jkd. go to the kungfu form for wc info

www.wingchunkwoon.com

[YODA]

Well - Dave teaches Jun Fan / JKD / Kali / Silat etc but he originally comes from a strong Wing Chun base so I reckon his place is a good choice if that aspect interests you but you also like the idea of the JKD approach.

[hotrod1]

yes i do like the idea of jkd as well and kali silat my main interest is learning to be as effect as possoble as this is what we train for in case of an attack i'am very open minded and willing to learn what i can

[LS]

let us know how it goes.

[ANVIL]

There is plenty of information to be found on the internet about both Wing Chun and JKD, including the opinions on this forum, which I don’t really intend to add to here. However, I would recommend having at look at both arts (and indeed classes) before making your decision, rather than basing it on anything you may read. As for effectiveness, I tend to believe it’s the individual as much as the art they practice, so I can’t help you there, but…

I’d be surprised if anyone other than Sifu Lai’s own students know anything about him because he has maintained a very low profile. The reasons for this are a) because he does not teach full-time and therefore does not advertise as such; and b) Sifu Lai is the only student of Chu Shong Tin currently teaching in Europe (as far as he is aware). This means that Master Chu’s name is not widely known in Europe and thus he and his students do not necessarily attract much attention. Nevertheless, Chu Shong Tin is greatly respected in his native Hong Kong/China and was one of the first students to be accepted by Yip Man, thus making him one of the most senior masters alive today.

Sifu William Lai is originally from Hong Kong himself and trained full time under Chu Shong Tin – he returns annually to practise with his Sifu. Sifu Lai’s training method mirrors that of Chu Shong Tin, who has been referred to as the ‘King of Sui Lim Tao’. As this nickname suggests, a great deal of time is spent practising the first form, developing relaxation and correct arm positioning/structure. Progress is gradual and is dependent upon competence rather than time spent training, therefore if after 12 months you are still not competent, you will continue performing Sui Lim Tao until you are (although I am not aware of anyone taking this amount of time to satisfy Sifu Lai’s requirements!). Sifu Lai’s exacting standards do not endear his methods to everyone due to the fact that a great deal of patience is required and progress is too slow for many people. This results in a lack of student retention, but for those of us who remain, it means relatively small classes and lots of personal attention. I know of some people at some clubs who have learned all 3 forms and the wooden dummy in a 12-month period – if you are expecting those kind of results, I would try elsewhere. The progress that a diligent student can expect to make (dependent upon ability) is detailed on Sifu Lai’s website, www.geocities.com/williamlaiwingchun/, where you can also find links to Chu Shong Tin and some of his other students.

I myself have trained under Sifu Lai for almost 2 years, and although my progress has not been particularly quick, I have found Sifu Lai to be an excellent teacher and a pleasant person who promotes a friendly, informal training environment, which I personally enjoy. If you are patient, and serious about learning Wing Chun, I would highly recommend you visit him. I’m sure some people will doubtless not see the necessity for such gradual progress, and they are entitled to their opinion, but during my time spent training under Sifu Lai, I have had the opportunity to witness some of Sifu Lai’s senior students touch hands with students of other Sifu’s, for example, I have seen my Sihing (who at the time had trained under Sifu Lai for 2 years) hold his own and dominate other people who have trained under a certain high-profile instructor for over 5 years, so on the basis of this (admittedly limited) evidence, his training methods do appear to pay dividends. However, I’m not here to advocate a particular training method/philosophy, just to provide some information about my Sifu as requested, but anyone who feels this method/philosophy is inadequate can always direct their comments to Chu Sheung Tin!

All I know about JKD is from books so I’m by no means qualified to pass comment on it, however I have heard of Dave Carnell and believe him to be a highly respected teacher. I am somewhat confused however, by the fact that William Lai teaches in Sheffield, and Dave Carnell, to the best of my knowledge, does not. Are you sure you’ve got the right person in Dave, or are you travelling to attend sessions? There is a guy in Sheffield called Mark Hayes who teaches JKD, and I believe he is also a very good teacher, but I’m not aware of anyone else in Sheffield teaching it.

Hope I’ve been of some use to you re: Sifu William Lai – if I can help you any further, please ask

[hotrod1]

thank you for the infomation and yes i'am intending on travelling to train as there are not many clubs where i'am

[CKava]

Just a note anvil the Wing Chun school in Belfast is headed/founded by a student of Chu Shong Ting called Ting Kwok Wai.

[ANVIL]

Just a note anvil the Wing Chun school in Belfast is headed/founded by a student of Chu Shong Ting called Ting Kwok Wai.

:eek:

thanks for that - i'll mention it to my Sifu, i'm sure he'll be very interested to know. Do you know anything about Ting Kwok Wai, such as his age, how long he spent training with Chu Shong Tin, when, and if he's presently teaching in Belfast? Up until now Sifu Lai believed he was Chu Shong Tin's only student teaching in Europe - he visits Chu Shong Tin annually and hasn't been told otherwise, so it's interesting to hear from you. Any more information would be greatly appreciated.

:cool:

[NorwoodBloke]

To answer the original question:

I vote JKD!

Because if you train JKD you might get to spar against people trying to hit you.

Also in jkd you will fight with, and against, wing chun techniques.
So you can decide if you like them compared to other the styles used in jkd schools.

[CKava]

Sure I have little more knowledge about Ting Kwok Wai though I'll have to get back to you on specifics such as age. He does still teach in Belfast (to an extent)- he runs a Chinese takeaway and has now semi-retired from teaching Wing Chun. But he still attends every grading and teaches private lessons to some of the senior students and he also gives Chi Kung (Spelling?) lessons periodically for any students who are interested. Basically his school is run by the students that he taught in his restaurant when he originally came over from Hong Kong though I think as well that he recently started taking general classes again (however I was in London at that time so I cant really say) his organisation is called the Northern Ireland Wing Chun Kung Fu Association (or NIWCKFA). I also know he trained at the same time as Bruce Lee as he has plenty of pictures with him and also acted in 2 of his movies, he has 2 dan degrees in Judo and a style of Karate I forget and thats about all I know of him. As far as Im aware some of the senior students have also went over to train with Chu Shong Ting in Hong Kong with an intoductory letter from Ting, in fact when I was at the club last week I heard that a senior student is heading over to do just that in 2 weeks time- so I think he is recognised as legitimate ok... The new website isnt up yet but Ill post you a link when its up and running. Apologies if any of my information isn't that clear but thats about the extent of my knowledge.

[Andy Murray]

I vote JKD!

Because if you train JKD you might get to spar against people trying to hit you.


If your experience of WC is that noone tries to hit you, then you have never experienced WC.

The problem in WC that I see personally, is that it's rare someone tries to hit you in a non WC manner.

[ANVIL]

thanks for that ckava - i'm still a bit confused, and forgive me for possibly being a little premature as you did say you'd get back to me re:specifics, but...

Chu Shong Tin was one of the first students to be accepted by Yip Man, (I'm not certain, but maybe one of the first 5?). Anyway, if Ting Kwok Wai trained at the same time as Bruce Lee, would he not be a contemporary of Chu Shong Tin, training under Yip Man? Having said that, as far as I'm aware, Chu Shong Tin won't teach anyone who has been taught under other Sifu's, only his own students, and with a letter of introduction, so that bit makes sense at least. Thanks for your help anway - my Sifu was intrigued by what you had to say (he's going to do some research of his own!).

Thanks again :)

[Andy Murray]

Would Chu Shong Tin be the same (romanization) as Tsui Sheung-Ting?
If so, he's certainly listed as being an early student of Yip Man.

No mention of Ting Kwok Wai that I've found so far.

[CKava]

Hey Anvil, as far as Im aware Bruce Lee spent alot more time learning from Yipmans senior students than from Yipman himself I could be wrong but I think Tsui Sheung Ting was one of his instructors anyhow as I say Im not a wealth of knowledge on the subject, though as I say when they get that website up and running I'll give you the link and then you could contact one of the senior instructors for more accurate information.

And incidentally Andy, I couldnt find anything on the internet about Ting Kwok Wai when I looked a while back but then I dont know Chinese so I cant really say there is no information about but anyway he was definitely a stuntman in 2 of Bruce's films I'll find out specifics for you and there was also an article on him in Black Belt magazine quite some time ago- I think it was called "from HongKong to Belfast: a Kung Fu masters journey"

[Andy Murray]

And incidentally Andy, I couldnt find anything on the internet about Ting Kwok Wai when I looked a while back but then I dont know Chinese so I cant really say there is no information about but anyway he was definitely a stuntman in 2 of Bruce's films

So was Jackie Chan. ;)

[ANVIL]

Would Chu Shong Tin be the same (romanization) as Tsui Sheung-Ting?
If so, he's certainly listed as being an early student of Yip Man.

No mention of Ting Kwok Wai that I've found so far.

yes andy, that's right, Chu Shong Tin and Tsui Sheung-Ting are one and the same, and he was a very early student of Yip Man. :)

[Andy Murray]

yes andy, that's right, Chu Shong Tin and Tsui Sheung-Ting are one and the same, and he was a very early student of Yip Man. :)

Though obviously not taught the secret Ving Tsun that William Cheung was. ;)

[ANVIL]

Though obviously not taught the secret Ving Tsun that William Cheung was. ;)

As i understand it, Chu Shong Tin was one of the first 4 students of Yip Man (possibly 3rd), the others being Leung Seung, Lok Yu and Wong Shun Leung. I've also seen a couple of articles claiming that Yip Man, shortly before his death, suggested in an interview that Chu Shong Tin had surpassed his (Yip Man's) own skills in Wing Chun (of course the original source of this information seems to be untraceable!). But no Andy, you're quite right, I don't beleive he was taught the secret Ving Tsun that William Cheung was, at least I've seen no reference to it :)

[Andy Murray]

I don't beleive he was taught the secret Ving Tsun that William Cheung was, at least I've seen no reference to it :)

Maybe he was, but it wasn't a secret then? :p

[William Lai]

Hi, members of this forum,

I am William Lai. I am a Wing Chun practitioner training students in Sheffield, UK. I am Grand Master Chu Shong Tin's only disciple who train students in Europe.

One of my students who contributed an article to this forum about Wing Chun and he mentioned me at this forum. Consequent to this, it leads to the question whether or not a gentleman named "Ting Kwok Wai" is my Sifu's Chu Shong Tin's student.

I have checked with my Si-jut Susana Ho in Australia regarding this gentleman. Her reply was: a person claimed as Sifu Ting's student wrote to her a year ago enquiring whether or not she was happy to include his Sifu's name and school in my Sifu's web page in Susana's website. Since she did not know this gentleman then she asked her Grand Master regarding this person. My Sifu said he did train with him for a brief period only (Ting did not train long) so my Sifu did not suggest to include his details in Susana's website."

If Sifu Ting Kwok Wai did train with my Sifu for over five years and he had completed the training. I would suggest him to contact my Sifu directly to obtain his approval for listing in his page.

If there is any one like to know more about my Sifu and his approved list of students qualified to train please visit Susana's website at www.hchwingchun.com.au. From there you will see an icon CHU SHONG TIN, You click it and it will take you to my Sifu's page. If you click an icon Associated School and you will find a list of my Sifu's students training in different part of the world.

You can also visit my websites at www.geocities.com/williamlaiwingchun or www.wingchun.me.uk. From there you will know more about my school in UK. by the way my sites are still in progress.

I trust the foregoing answer the question about Sifu Ting Kwok Wai. If anyone wants to contact me please visit my sites.

Sifu William Lai

[YODA]

Thanks for the clarification William - and welcome to MAP - I hope to stay and contribute more to our community :D

[William Lai]

Hi, members of this forum,

Further to my article about Ting Kowk Wai. Please note that my Sifu Chu Shong Tin is the third student of Yip Man. He is one of the most senior masters in the world. Grand Master Yip Man's two sons are my Sifu's Si-dais (junoir kung fu brothers).

Sifu William Lai

[paulend]

http://www.niwckfa.org/home.htm <<??

[Morgs]

I vote JKD, check out www.jkd.co.za, Morne is a very practical and awesome JKD street fighting coach. They also have long distance training programmes.

Basically if you want to learn how to fight, keep fit and not bother about rituals and traditions, go for JKD, it's less politics and more training. You will train against all different types of partners, giving you resistance, so you will soon realise what works and what dosen't. Basically our training focuses on Kick/Thai boxing, clinching, grappling, stick and knife fighting and all of these focus on a street enviroment and not a class room enviroment.

I'm not trashing Wing Chun at all, and i'm sure it's very exciting for some people, but i personally prefer the relaxed, friendly and street orientated training that JKD can give you.

Marc
-------------------
Marc Morgan
London Training Group Leader
JKD High Performance Street Fighting
Website www.jkd.co.za

[inosanto1]

hi there every one i'am quite knew to the arts but i hav been looking into starting either wing chun or jun fan jkd/kali but i'am not sure which one to comit my self to the sifu of the wing chun is william lai
he trained under a Chu Shong Tin and i have heard wingchun is quite a good street defence the jun fan instructor is a dave carnell if any one can give me any advice on the effectivness of these arts and if they have heard of the instructors thanks
hi, if you are training with dave as you have stated, then i think you should stick with him, he is one of the best in the country and one of the most repected. the thing about jkd is that it covers a wider spectrum of techniques than wing chun, although there is nothing wrong with wing chun and it is effective, i would state though that much of the wing chun system is at the art of jkd, so by training with dave you are essentially getting the best of both worlds

[William Lai]

My Si-suk, "Bruce Lee" used the blue print of Wing Chun to develop JKD. Obviously, JKD has its good features otherwise it will not survive since Bruce died. It is a shame he died so early otherwise he would have contributed much more to the martial art world.

I do not know much about JKD so I can only share my experience and philiosophy in Wing Chun under my Sifu's training. We emphasis in proper structure, relaxation, diversion and inner power. It meets with the 3Es that is economy, efficiency and effectiveness.

Anyone wants to know more about the system of Wing Chun is welcome to visit my sites http://www.wingchun.me.uk and http://www.geocities.com/williamlaiwingchun and my link-sites. My Sifu has written articles regarding this system and these are posted at my Si-jut's site http://www.hchwingchun.com.au both in Chinese and English.

At the end of the day, it is a personal choice which art suits that particular person. There were many students dropped out from my class because they found it difficult to cope with my training requirement.

Sifu William Lai

[inosanto1]

i agree, Bruce did use Wing Chun as the blueprint for JKD, and Wing Chun is a very effective system in it's own right, i have followed Master James Sinclair and have been told by such exponents of JKD as Rick young that he is very good in his field and should be trained with. Bruce also found the weaknesses in the system as do many systems, and thus modified it to work for him, i would also state that without Bruce and JKD, Wing Chun would probably not be as well known. if you have never tried JKD, go along to a session and try it, you may be surprised, and many that go drop out because of what is asked of them.

[carl_eat_world]

Forum members,

I have been studying Wing Chun under Ting Kwok Wai in the Northern Ireland Wing Chun Kung Fu Association for over ten years. I have recently returned from training with Chu Shong Tin in Hong Kong. I can verify that my Sifu Ting Kwok Wai was a direct student of Chu Shong Tin and completed the system under his tuition. For reference please refer to the Ip man ving stun (wing chun) genealogy book. Ting Kwok Wai's name is clearly under Chu Shong Tin's lineage for completing the system. Ting Kwok Wai is still in contact with his Sifu Chu Shong Tin. For my last visit to Hong Kong (of which there have been four), Ting personally phoned Chu Shong Tin to verify that myself and two others were going to train in his class. I personally know of other NIWCKFA members that have trained with Chu Shong Tin (our Si Gung) with letters from Sifu Ting. From Sifu Ting's memory there was at one stage another student of Chu Shong Tin teaching in Scotland, however I have no further information on this.

I hope this has helped to clear up any issues of Chu Shong Tin students teaching in the U.K. Please feel free to contact me with any questions.

Many Thanks

[focused_rage]

J.K.D. will open a vast world of martial arts and bring you true insight on how to find flaws in any opponents fighting style and teach you to exploit them.

i have spent a lifetime in J.K.D. the training is harsh the sparing is full contact J.K.D. will teach you how to dominate in any situation.
one of the best things of J.K.D.is they teach you to embrace what works best for you and to prefect your weakest areas.
stick to it and you will never regret it, for one if you decide you like one of the various arts taught in J.K.D. a good instructor will show you down that path for me it was escrima and i tell you one thing i completely believe, you give me 2 escrima sticks and 10 angry men in a small confined space and i will be the only one you see walking out.

but thats my ego lol.

all together if you want to be a great fighter J.K.D. is by far the best choice when considering most arts, why?,

well first:
the training first you will learn a couple basic techniques then be asked to apply them in a "boxing style" sparing match with an opponent actually attacking you,
by this proses you learn what works for you and what don't.
this is the type of training you will experience on a daily basses, so expect bumps and bruising even the occasional broken nose, and for the safety of keeping doctor bills low if you feel some one has you in a lock you cant get out of with out a broken limb remember to tap out...... lol .

and number two:
In time you will love what jkd brings you. And the new family you will have will be like no other, people that will forever back you in anything from a fight to hard times.
In jkd you wont find ridicule for religious backgrounds, no politics and a completely open environment that any and all questions are welcome, instructors who will back you in the study of other arts and welcome the blending of them to fit the style that works best for you.

In jkd nothing is based on the hope of reaction from an opponent instead the training pushes realistic situations instead of things like how just cause you kick a man in his junk means hes going down and just cause you strike him his head his head will turn.
Thats what i seem to find a lot of other arts (not all) teach this is false some people don't react at all, some people are under the influence of alcohol/drugs, some are just plain tough and can take a hit, some people will jump you with a group of 3 or more and some people will "sucker punch" you.
jkd will teach you to handle situations like this with simple techniques like how to use peripheral vision cause your body will react faster if your brain isn't overworked by thinking about and/or intimidated by the opponent.

W.C. is a great art and can be found in so much of J.K.D.,
W.C. may be even best to take before J.K.D. perhaps it will help you excel faster in J.K.D. and understand the principles behind J.K.D..

Personally i say take them both if you can even if you train every day push that limit and i promise you will be satisfied with the end results!
J.K.D. has very hard training and at times you may want to give up but don't the system is built tough to make you tough, confident and smart in a real fight against any one any style or even none at all its a combat enabled fighting system based on the philosophy of forever changing and evolving toward perfection.

i know im late...

[ap Oweyn]

This thread is from 7 years ago. I think that might be a record for thread necromancy.

[focused_rage]

This thread is from 7 years ago. I think that might be a record for thread necromancy.

lol perhaps but i thought it might help any one looking later on.

i posted just so they can get a idea of what to expect from the JKD system when starting out and to give another opinion from a JKD practitioner it was a little out numbered.

[simon s]

i posted just so they can get a idea of what to expect from the JKD system when starting out and to give another opinion from a JKD practitioner it was a little out numbered.

I think you are looking at JKD through rose coloured spectacles.

[focused_rage]

lol well just short of 20 years in i doubt that.

[Sheever]

nice to see you.hope U ll drop some experiences here:)

[Hannibal]

lol well just short of 20 years in i doubt that.

I think you'll find Simon means that whatever the principles YOU have enfolded for your JKD, many more will disagree almost to the point of calling you a liar and a fraud.

Like every art some practitioners are good, some bad and some ****in awful

JKD is by far the most fragmented and bitchy martial arts community......Well outside of Ninjutsu - we can't hold a candle to those guys but we are catching up!

[focused_rage]

I think you'll find Simon means that whatever the principles YOU have enfolded for your JKD, many more will disagree almost to the point of calling you a liar and a fraud.

Like every art some practitioners are good, some bad and some ****in awful

JKD is by far the most fragmented and bitchy martial arts community......Well outside of Ninjutsu - we can't hold a candle to those guys but we are catching up!

lol true
i cant argue that, but thats the point of JKD and depends largely on ones instructor if they are being taught there teachers JKD or shown how to make it there own.

Lee said him self every ones truth is there own, this makes room for a lot of debate, but i have been to a few seminar's on JKD down in L.A. and i trust what Dan Inosanto said at each of them and payed for 4 of his classes back in 98 or so, costly but worth it.

[simon s]

I mean no disrespect, I've done my time in JKD and it forms a large part of what I teach now. You posts to me though read as if you though JKD was a one stop shop and as you know you need to look outside of the art (any art) to help free you of your ignorance.

[kensouKOF99]

learn them both i would say start with wing chun then learn jkd and remember use them as a way of life.

[Hannibal]

Living is a way of life - Martial Arts are a way of fighting

[kensouKOF99]

but jkd is a way of life

[Hannibal]

No it isn't - the philosophy behind it is, but even that is a an application of existing thought processes (specifically Krishnamurti). JKD is a way of finding truth about yourself and your character through combative means, but even that is largely too estoeric to be of any real tangible benefit to the average practitioner IMO.

The problem is that too many "armchair monks" get hold of a bit of oriental whimsy and it seems profound; In reality it isn't unless you want to overcomplicate things - the very antithesis of JKD.

[kensouKOF99]

simply your opinion.

[Hannibal]

And more articulately argued than yours I might add...funny that

[focused_rage]

I mean no disrespect, I've done my time in JKD and it forms a large part of what I teach now. You posts to me though read as if you though JKD was a one stop shop and as you know you need to look outside of the art (any art) to help free you of your ignorance.

Sorry for any confusion let me clarify.
not at all.
JKD i honestly think should be the start of ones own path in the life as a martial artist and be carried with you as you grow and experience martial arts.

the best thing about JKD is it teaches you to embrace all beneficial aspects of other arts and apply them to what will make best for your self.

like ok ill admit for the most part personally i think Tae Kwon Do is a joke as a "fighting style" and is much better as an exercise program.
for one way too fancy, two it was designed as a one of five part training cores Tae Kwon Do being the means to kick a man off his horse and shouldn't have been separated like it was.

imagine if some one took just what you teach your first rank alone and made that the whole of an art and thousands of people were being taught it world wide and only that no growth no beyond just that,
and it was whole heartedly believed by so many that it was the best most hard core art out there, sickening isn't it... now if you place the other 4 with it you have something good, solid and pure.
so if you went and started Tae Kwon Do then went to Jutte Jutsu, Seikendo, Tang Soo Do then you would be doing it right and be one hell of a martial artiest then say you finished with Lima Lama you would be amazingly dangerous in a fight.

But allot of arts like Tae Kwon Do have instructors who make there students believe that Tae Kwon Do is all they will ever need to know to "become untouchable" as allot of the ones i met say.
and its too bad, allot of good potential is wasted that way.

But if they would have started JKD or at least took in the concept and used it as a guidance tool it would allow them to grow more than ever to reach that full potential, preventing any narrow visioned instructor from teaching them only one lesson how to be blind just like them.

this is not what/who i am so i am sorry if any one took it like that, i will never suggest to any one to take only one martial art every style of fighting has at least one or two things that are good and will work for you.
so unlike some of the instructors and schools that teach this i say you must experience every thing you can and push all limitations out of the way.

(....sorry im ranting, touchy subject for me gets me all heated, lol. ill stop bashing them now..)

what i mean to say is JKD should be a part of you, an extension of your self nothing more.
ethically it is a "one stop shop" to a guide on how to conduct your self it the study of martial arts and how one should learn to apply what is best for you and your personal growth to reach the highest potential you can, for some a fighter others teaches.

its a beginning with a means to an end, in the end the only thing JKD should be.... wait whats your name?_________, thats what it should be called, or
what do you feel your own style represents?________, nice i like it.
when one hits that marker that is the only two questions one should ask them self.

now im not saying you take JKD and that is because you will never reach that marker if you do that.
the whole point is to expand and evolve and evaluation cant happen if you stay in one environment and if you always keep the teachings in mind of JKD then what you develop should keep making new examples creating new islands, Lee made two him self one that was the combination of what he knew then the one that kept him in an evolutionary pattern and taught others to do the same with a whole set of starter tools.

its your job to get there JKD is just a how to guide on development.

your truth is inside of what is truly you and is never the reflection of another.