learning to fight is a bunch of crap...

[Mike O'Leary]

:woo:

Now that i got your attention hahahahha

A submission for discussion..

I have read dicussion on this forum about which is the most effective martial art. I have read statements and disagreements on how kata, technique and even breathing should be done. I have heard comment about how training hard and getting tough are the essence of the martial arts. I submit that learning how to fight is a side effect of training and that the goal of training is to create a healthier, happier, more secure individual..... any comments..........?????????????????????????????


Mike.....:Angel:

[Cain]

Well....you seem to be focusing more on health and fitness. anyways I would like to add that -

To become a good fighter we have to train our bodies to meet the necesarry requirements.

I seriously think these two go hand in hand....but then maybe someone else has better views on these....I am waiting for Tkdwarrior's or Yoda's reply to this discussion though.
|Cain|

[Mike O'Leary]

I simply said that the act of learning to fight was a side effect... and that the primary would be to create a better person.. as defined by funakoshi.....

Mike

[dragon_duplicat]

true definition

[waya]

I think that is ultimately the final goal of training.... We will all eventually lose our physical skill, but the knowledge gained, and how we better ourselves can never be taken away.

[Cain]

Oops sorry Mike, for being kinda rude in my last post I have edited it now....no hard feelings I hope :)
|Cain|

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Mike O'Leary
I submit that learning how to fight is a side effect of training and that the goal of training is to create a healthier, happier, more secure individual..... any comments..........?????????????????????????????


Why would everyone have the same goal?

Some people have this as a goal, others have self-defence or competition, streetfighting ability, fun, social reasons and any number of other things.


and that the primary would be to create a better person.. as defined by funakoshi.....


Define better person. Then show how karate does this, then that karate is one of the more effiecient methods of doing this.

[wayofthedragon]

Originally posted by Mike O'Leary
:I submit that learning how to fight is a side effect of training and that the goal of training is to create a healthier, happier, more secure individual..... any comments..........?????????????????????????????

hmmm....sounds good to me:)

[YODA]

Originally posted by Mike O'Leary
I simply said that the act of learning to fight was a side effect... and that the primary would be to create a better person.. as defined by funakoshi.....

Mike


Nope - its' the other way around.

[Cain]

I agree with Andrew, different people look at it differently, I believe there is no absolute specific goal in martial arts nietherr is there an end to it [I guess that means I have to put up with 80 push-ups all my life :D ]
|Cain|

[morphus]

I agree with Yoda.

If learninghow to defend your self/fighting is a side affect of training then anyone that goes to Tae Bo(a kick/boxersize class) should get the same effect, I doubt this unless someone can prove different?

[Mike O'Leary]

Interesting... so tell me all those hard trainers out there... that are training for self defence or combat or the ring.. do you retire when your gaol is met? ... hmmmm and what do you do at 50... i guess since it is unlikely any of you would be the one in a million to still be ring fighting at that age.. that you will all stop training then am I correct..hmmmmmmmm

And who ever said that training to be a better person involved anything less than good shape... good technique.. and good spirit...

mike

[Mike O'Leary]

I agree with Yoda.

If learninghow to defend your self/fighting is a side affect of training then anyone that goes to Tae Bo(a kick/boxersize class) should get the same effect, I doubt this unless someone can prove different?


Morphus..... I wish you had told me this earlier... after all then I would never have to learn martial arts ... i could have simply taken Tae bo... your post tells me you recognize this as a legit style of learning combat... is that correct.....???????????????

mike __________________
I was beside myself when the doctor diagnosed schizophrenia!

[Mike O'Leary]

Yoda....... please elaborate.... after all......... it is a dicussion.. and i beleive that funakoshi did say what he did... that to train and study was to create a better person.... physically, spiritually and mentally.... to be a good warrior one must be open to all around him... have confidence and compassion.... one must be the eternal student... and always approach situations and learning with an empty cup..... going into battle with a preconceived idea of how it will come out is suicide..... being open and adapting to a changing environment is the key to success.....

Mike ...

[Mike O'Leary]

I suggest to anyone answering that you consider what training has done for you... has it made you a better person... and what has it taught you outside the relm of fighting.... what has the dicipline instilled in you.... even if you train for social reasons as someone said..... does that mean they do not benefit from the exercise.. the mental awarness and the spiritual awakening that will eventually take place if you train hard and long enough... Spiritual here is not talkin of religion.. but of spirit.... of focus and conviction... again.. remember i have submitted this on the basis of Gichin Funakoshi and his philosophy.... before you run at the battle... see it for what it is...


mike

[hongkongfuey]

I think I probably agree with Mike's original sentiment that the primary benefit (although not necessarily the primary goal) of Martial Arts is creating a 'better person', and learning to fight is secondary.

The reason that a Tae Bo class will not build the soul as much as a 'proper' martial art is that it will not push the person to the same extent as there is no physical combat (and overcoming the associated fear that goes with it).

However, any sport that pushes the body to its limits (which is most sports at the highest level) will build the character of the person doing it. The difference with Martial Arts is that if you do not compete to your full potential you dont just lose the race - you tend to get a good ol' fashioned kicking as well!

[morphus]

Tae Bo - no i i don'think it a style of its own, what i meant was the fact that its a keep fit class that kicks and punches - what you implied was that they learn to defend themselves/fight as a by-product, and i disagree with that.

I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but thats what it sounded like to me, care to clarify?

[TkdWarrior]

i missed this thread :D
well for a change i'll say that i m quite a nice person... so i needed to learn to fight so i picked up MA...

ok seriously MA is supposed to built for self defense not for character building...if u need character building then u should look for church, temples/gurudawaras n so called religious gurus...
if u need fitness u should look for yoga, aerobics n other fitness systems...
as MA is all about Hard work, preservance discipline etc etc...all other things comes as a side effect..;)
hard work with preservance for years give u humbleness or Ego if u got the later one then someday u'll meet ur match n know that u r not the BEST...
as u said spiritual doesn't involves religion but to me it involves knowing the how n why of u....
even as u get old u tend to stay away from materialistci things n start developing the Spiritual Intellect(that's why u see mostly Old ppl)
-TkdWarrior-

[TkdWarrior]

to add into my previous post...as for tae bo is concerned i hav seen they do some MA drills...those will work if the intent is rite..
intent from both student n teacher's side...
something as hong kong fuey said... "The Soul"
cheers
-TkdWarrior-

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Morphus..... I wish you had told me this earlier... after all then I would never have to learn martial arts ... i could have simply taken Tae bo... your post tells me you recognize this as a legit style of learning combat... is that correct.....???????????????

I think you'll find he was actually saying the opposite, but that if your suggestion that learning to fight is a side-effect of training were true then it would have to be effective.

Three things that my training has done for me, ranked from first to third.

Self-defense
Self-improvement
Self-confidence

[Cain]

Ahh....Tkdwarrior I loved ur post :D
|Cain|

[Mike O'Leary]

[Tae Bo - no i i don'think it a style of its own, what i meant was the fact that its a keep fit class that kicks and punches - what you implied was that they learn to defend themselves/fight as a by-product, and i disagree with that.

I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but thats what it sounded like to me, care to clarify? [/B][/QUOTE]

Mike Response..
Seems to me i never mentioned Tae bo till someone else did... i dont not compare this to martial arts training at all... it is as someone said.. a keep fit class..... and is no where near the training that any of us do in serious pursuit of martial arts....


It has also been cited that any sport will build character and that if you dont compete to your potential you lose the race... This now brings us into a second relm of conversation... Sport Martial arts... are they real or are they not.... for many years i competed and then as I got older and less interested I began to change my tactics and techniques because suddenly I had no rules to follow... ie.. all kicks above the waist... ect.... I maintain that if I train to kick high for example in the crunch i will automaticlly kick high..... and I do beleive there are more expediant kicks than a high kick in a self defence situation.

There are many examples of this difference in sprot karate.. and i'm not saying it is a totally usless exercise.. but if i fight in the ring with rules... it is very unlikely that when pushed to a self defence situation i will deviate from those rules.... as the old saying goes... "Train as you want to react and you will react as you train" that does have validity....

Training in the martial arts is a long term commitment. I have written articles on the anomoly of when an old warrior retires he tends to be put out to pasture as he no longer can kick the light bulb in the ceiling out... yes there are a few who maintain peak health through out their later years but it is not the norm. Most of us will suffer through our training injuries that will stay with us and change our art. Sport on the other hand sees these people as a wealth of knowledge and resource for coaching capabilities... but lets face it... how many of you walked into a dojo in the beginning and chose to train with the "OLD COACH" rather than the flashy younger version down the street. Of course there are many older ones in the world running organizations and who are capable.. but consider the number of senior belts out there and how many of them percentage wise will atain this physical ability at an older age...

So.. given that... as we get older... when you no longer pride yourself as the toughest guy in the dojo... (cause it really makes no difference) what will you be training for.... what is the long term goal of your training....

perhaps i am not explaining this right.... but i hope you get my point..

[Mike O'Leary]

Originally posted by ckdstudent

I think you'll find he was actually saying the opposite, but that if your suggestion that learning to fight is a side-effect of training were true then it would have to be effective.

Three things that my training has done for me, ranked from first to third.

Self-defense
Self-improvement
Self-confidence

Mikes response...

HMMMMMMMM and i always thought that effective self defense was rooted in self confidence.. meaning with out the confidence... the self defense was difficult to attain... and to gain the self confidence.. you needed self improvememt and also before the self defence you needed self imporvement.. strange... given a different day of the week.. would these priorities not be in a constant state of change.... depending on the situation...

I always thought the goal of training was so that we did not have to fight..... becomeing a good tactician would enable us to talk our way out of a fight or avoid it all together....

Generally in this string.. it would appear that everyone wants to fight first and ask questions later.... my experience is that those with low self esteem tend to jump quickly to anger and use their fists... those who feel good about themselves and what they do seldom feel the need to go into combat mode unless given absolutly no choice..........

"As the temper goes forth withdraw the hand, as the hand goes forth withdraw the temper"

Sorry its that ole Funakoshi guy again... just cant shake his philosophy........ and if you wish to dispute the quote.. at least do more than say..... "NOPE>>> " ... hahahha its a dicussion folks....

[Kat]

I think it would be true to say that many people start MA wanting to learn to FIGHT but simply needing self confidence or sef esteem.Many people go to schools in order to fill an insecurity in there life.Some people fill this hole quickly and there ego goes further,others find more to the fighting side and persuse medative or spiritual practises.Others find friendship,likeminded people a society that perhaps that they feel at home with.

Other people don't take it so seriously and train hard

[wayofthedragon]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mike O'Leary
I simply said that the act of learning to fight was a side effect... and that the primary would be to create a better person.. as defined by funakoshi.....

Mike
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nope - its' the other way around. (by Yoda)

Hmmmmmmmmm.......maybe it could be both. If you think about it, both of the bennifits come with training regardless. Maybe it's just what the trainee hopes to gain and capitalize on the most.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Mike O'Leary
Interesting... so tell me all those hard trainers out there... that are training for self defence or combat or the ring.. do you retire when your gaol is met? ... hmmmm and what do you do at 50... i guess since it is unlikely any of you would be the one in a million to still be ring fighting at that age.. that you will all stop training then am I correct..hmmmmmmmm

And who ever said that training to be a better person involved anything less than good shape... good technique.. and good spirit...

mike

Goals can change, if ring sports are what you are interested in you can still train, just not compete. Helio Gracie is how old and still rolls around on the floor?

You could start coahing others as well as your own training.

There is a difference between training to be the best you can, and training to be the best you could be if you where still young.

I've trained people of all ages, the same way. The difference is mostly in intensity. Some other things might be adapted as well if neccessary do to joint problems, arthritis, etc. But the way they train is the same.

You'll never be able to run competitively, so stop running. Is that really neccessary? Do you think all competitive runners stop running when they get older? Some might, but I think a lot will continue.

And to ask a counter question, when training for "character development" how many quit when the goal is met? How many quit shortly after shodan (the goal that was given to them)? Are any of them better people because of it?

The self-improvement things attributed to the martial arts come with almost all sports. Western sports (amateur) promoted themselves based on the same ideals. But it was done as a byproduct of the sport, not the goal.

I believe that without training hard and pushing yourself to be the best you can, you will likely miss out on any self-improvement bonuses that their might be. Karate, or any other martial art, doesn't do anything "special" in that respect.

[Sean O]

Originally posted by Mike O'Leary
I have read dicussion on this forum about which is the most effective martial art. I have read statements and disagreements on how kata, technique and even breathing should be done. I have heard comment about how training hard and getting tough are the essence of the martial arts. I submit that learning how to fight is a side effect of training and that the goal of training is to create a healthier, happier, more secure individual..... any comments..........?????????????????????????????

I think to answer this question we need to think of a sort of "timeline" for a martial artist. Heres the one that I think applies to most people...

- as a child, you see kung fu movies where jackie chan is fighting off 20 guys at once and think to yourself, "I want to do that!"

- you find a martial art you like and begin training, all the while picturing yourself in one of those movies

- as your self defense skills improve, you find yourself to be more confident in everyday life... that dark alley doesnt seem as scary anymore... you also find yourself to have more endurance and physical strength

- as your skills continue to improve, you find a way to incorperate (spelling?) the principals of one of your katas or techniques or whatever it may be to a philosophy for everyday life, which can make you a better person and adds to your self confidence

- all the while, you are, without even knowing it, learning disipline and gaining willpower, which makes self improvement much easier

- finally, you are attacked on the street by some dopehead and knock him senseless, but while this is happening, you aren't thinking of jackie chan in one of his movies, you are just thinking of getting to whereever is it you were heading to... this is because the newfound inner strengtht that comes from the self defense, self improvement, and self confidence has matured you

So what I think is that to learn a martial art is both the improvment of your strength and the realization of your inner strength. They go hand in hand. Thats my two cents.

Sean O

[Mike O'Leary]

Domo Aregato Sean son.... go to head of the dojo..... face the sho minuchi....... bow.. face the class... and bow...



or in laymens terms... "give that man a cherute.." ....


Well said sir....


one thing though ........ are you by any chance part of the isshin Irish connection on the west coast?

mike

[Sean O]

Nope. Why do you ask?

[Dragon_Princess]

I dunno:confused:

[Mike O'Leary]

Sean...

The reason I ask is I know of another Sean O who sounds very much like you... signs his name the same way that is all... thought maybe you were him....


Mike

[Mike O'Leary]

Originally posted by Andrew Green


Goals can change, if ring sports are what you are interested in you can still train, just not compete. Helio Gracie is how old and still rolls around on the floor?

You could start coahing others as well as your own training.

There is a difference between training to be the best you can, and training to be the best you could be if you where still young.

I've trained people of all ages, the same way. The difference is mostly in intensity. Some other things might be adapted as well if neccessary do to joint problems, arthritis, etc. But the way they train is the same.

You'll never be able to run competitively, so stop running. Is that really neccessary? Do you think all competitive runners stop running when they get older? Some might, but I think a lot will continue.

And to ask a counter question, when training for "character development" how many quit when the goal is met? How many quit shortly after shodan (the goal that was given to them)? Are any of them better people because of it?

The self-improvement things attributed to the martial arts come with almost all sports. Western sports (amateur) promoted themselves based on the same ideals. But it was done as a byproduct of the sport, not the goal.

I believe that without training hard and pushing yourself to be the best you can, you will likely miss out on any self-improvement bonuses that their might be. Karate, or any other martial art, doesn't do anything "special" in that respect.



Mikes response..

Yes you are correct... this is what i was eluding to... but as to the self confidence thing that come with almost all sports being the same as the arts... i disagree..... there is a distinct difference between a trained warrior and a sport fighter.... as the warrior grows older he will refine , adapt and modify to suit his changing body. His goal is to still make techniques work it may simply be that he may refine and make them more economic which comes naturally with time anyway..... \

Somehow you have the impression i was talking about not training hard..... you should always train hard... give it your best.... training is a life long endevour.... I have seen film of Shoshin Nagamine at 90 still doing kata....... he did this at one of the World tournaments in Okinawa a year or so before he died.. he was doing a demo ...................... in the Video that was taken by my Sensei's wife... it shows people moving about and him doing the demo with many not noticing what was going on.. Sensei said.. to his wife... "Why are you taping that" or something to that affect... her reply was..." It is shoshin Nagamine.. he is 90" Sensei said... "nice kata" and sat and watched...... his kata was not graceful...... nor strong.... by our standards... the point was he was 90.. and still training....


As to coaching yes you can do this.. my point was ... in the martial arts... when your body becomes limited many tend to sluff you off... as opposed to other sports where you become valuable....

As to the problem of those who quit when they reach the goal... well .. they didnt really even understand the gaol did they...... i have had many shodan quit.... I have been told that in the brown belt stage i am not very encouraging..... as a sensei... but those who stayed.. they are good.. and in no way shape or form an i thier inspiration or motivation...... one student told me he has left the dojo because i did not encourage him as a brown belt... he said he trained in karate to learn a life long dream of living a life style..... he had not been in the dojo for 5 months when we talked.. I asked if he had trained on his own during this sabatical.. he said no.. he was to busy... he is now back in the dojo..... I still dont walk up and tell him what a nice person he is.. nor do I pat him on the back every class and tell him how good he is doing..... he is an adult.... and is very good.. he told me so.. you could never give this man a drink of water though.. his cup is full......

[Darzeka]

Become a better person?
Improve yourself?
Train to protect yourself?
Train to enter competitions?

None is a by-product of the other. They are all products of training. This doesn't mean training hard, all training will improve you (all thoughts will too).

I started training because I have played sports since I was 9 and had just stopped playing cricket due to injuries.
I wanted to keep my fitness up and have always liked the look and feel of martial arts. I also wanted to learn to defend myself incase I got sucked into a bar fight (I go out alot).

When I finished playing cricket I had found that while winning felt good, I didn't really care and it was the feeling of doing something energetic that I wanted. Now through thinking about the ideals of the art I find that I have no desire to compete to win in anything, the competition is more fun.

How is it possible to reach a goal that is unacheivable. If you have that desire to improve yourself then ultimately you want to be perfect, which as we all know is impossible.

[Mike O'Leary]

You stated that ..."how do you acheive a goal that is unacheivable" Perhaps the old addage.... "It is not reaching the destination that is the reward, it is the journey itself" applies to your question

[YODA]

Hmm.....

Martial arts has been a very positive influence in my life and has definately made me a better person. No doubt about that.

But...

It's the prime focus of training that I'm commenting on here. That must be fighting ability first - and development of character etc as a result of that combative ability & it's associated challenges / adversities in training.

Attempting the "better" yourself by sitting under a waterfall contemplating your navel will only lead to a false humility & false sense of worth.

Facing your weaknesses head on in honourable combat with a fellow athlete will teach you far more about yourself & give you a much more accurate perspective.

[pgm316]

I’d have to disagree with a lot that’s been said. My main reason for learning MA’s isn’t to become a better person or a better fighter. Its simply because I enjoy doing Kung Fu. I did consider myself a good fighter before I started, I got into fights and won easily enough. I just enjoyed the techniques in Kung Fu and I thought to myself I want to be able to fight like that. Maybe it’s just enjoying the martial arts life and all that comes with it. We do have goals of being better fighters, being better martial artists, will this make us better people, I hope your right. But how many people would stick to those goals if they simply weren’t enjoying what they did???

Does it matter if your not as good when you get older as long as your still enjoying yourself, after all isn’t that the purpose of life. Anyway you might get into a few scraps in the retirement home! Nobody can take their knowledge of MA’s away from them even when their health goes.

I still think older MA’s are valuable to teaching, I don’t think being a good fighter is as important as the knowledge they’d gained over so many years.

[YODA]

Bravo pgm316 :D

Good for you!

[pgm316]

Is that sarcasm Yoda ;)

OK I made myself sound arrogant, I wrongly considered I was a good fighter before I started, just pointing out my reason for starting wasn't to become a better fighter. And still really isn't, or else wouldn't many of us just stop learning when we think, right I know what I need now.

Point being, do you train because you enjoy learning to be a better fighter? Or simply becuse you want to be a better fighter....

[Cain]

Ok I kept quite most of the time but I can't hold myself anymore

I don't think martial arts has any specific goal except self defence [that's my view on MA]

Different people have different goals about martial arts

They create these goals themselves.

We are all different people

We are trying to prove in this thread that our specific goal is the answer

Hence by deriving the equation this thread is going entirely nowhere :D :D [joke]

I know the big guns like yoda or tkdwarrior or pgm will disagree with me on this :( but these are just my thoughts.
|Cain|

[YODA]

Originally posted by pgm316
Is that sarcasm Yoda ;)


No - not at all. You obviously have valid reasons for training & your training is in line with your goals - more power to you!

We may not agree on the generalisations - but that's cool too!

[TkdWarrior]

"Does it matter if your not as good when you get older as long as your still enjoying yourself, after all isn’t that the purpose of life. "

i m always under impression that with age comes experience n with comes wisdom(hopefully) which reminds me one of Zen story of one samurai...
one samurai was travelling thru ferry(obviously carrying sword) so one arrogant swordsman challenged him, he denied, the person again challenged him he replied "we won't fite here cause it's loaded with ppl, i don't want to hurt anyone, we'll fight on that island" so all went there..the swordsmen jumped out n challenged but the samurai went to the person who was controllin the ferry/boat n went away... leavin swordsman alone
so in one sense the samurai won without hurting anyone or without any fight...
story is kind a vague, awkward as i m not good story teller :)
-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

Hey ya Tkd I know that one a similar story is in 'enter the dragon' if u have seen the movie.
|Cain|

[Mike O'Leary]

Yoda...
Martial arts are not black and white.... once again you draw a hard line... it seems you feel that if your not training to become a better fighter you are sitting under a waterfall.... why so hard lined...

there are two sides to the martial arts.. the "Martial Side" and the Arts side.... each is as valuable as the other...

facing the enemy full on is an internal thing.... this is the key difference i have mentioned about martial arts and other sports. It is the character development that comes from all the training that allows us to do this not our abilities as a fighter.

in 1984 a student came to the dojo. He said. to me "Sensei sent me, I am to train with you a bit before i do my shodan test. He was an excellent ring fighter, competitor and was 25... I was in my mid thirties and about a foot shorter than him.

I watched him from the sidelines for a bit and then got in the ring with him. I became verbally agressive with him, my eye contact told him I was going to kill him... I won the match..

After he asked me why i was so mad at him.. i said I wasnt.. but that i had virtually defeated him with out laying a hand on him and he never even scored a point on me...

He was confused... then asked if I was going to tell sensei.. I said no.. i wont tell him... as long as he stopped letting his own fears defeat him...

Next class he showed up.. and when we got in the ring.. his eye contact had changed.. his demeanor had changed... he learned the lesson... facing his fears was outside the relm of physical fighting......... it was in his head..... that is why Sensei sent him to train and to fight with me.. I had already abandoned sport fighting...

I'm not saying it is time for all to abandon sport nor am i saying we should all sit under the water fall............. there are 3 ways to practice.. Mentally , spiritually and physically... each has its place and the order will change with the days.... but they all need equal time.

[Mike O'Leary]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TkdWarrior
[B]"Does it matter if your not as good when you get older as long as your still enjoying yourself, after all isn’t that the purpose of life. "

Mikes reply..:

I didnt say it mattered... I said this is a common impression people seem to have.


A freind of mine is 81 and still training. He has a small dojo. Many students and high ranking seniors "humor" him... He is old, he has arthritis, his kata and form solicit jeers and laughter from those who have not been around long. (that is under 10 or 15 years) and he does not get the respect he deserves. I have seen this before and will see it again. That is what im saying, not weather or not it matters but weather or not they are respected.

my experience has seen that younger people tend to look only at the physical prowess and not the experience. (Younger refering to years of training not years of age)

[YODA]

Yoda...
Martial arts are not black and white.... once again you draw a hard line... it seems you feel that if your not training to become a better fighter you are sitting under a waterfall.... why so hard lined...

___ I find that "Grey" seldom provokes a good response :D

As it was - my "Black & White" gleaned some very well thought out & interesting views from you. Thank you :D

[Mike O'Leary]

Yoda.... it is a dicussion.... why the need to win???????????

you seem fixated on "gaining the upper hand" ... instead of contributing to the dicussion....

If you read the original posting.. i "submitted" for dicussion a theory...

gain control of the emotion and contribute, gaining the upper hand or showing others up.... well.... that is easy on the net when we hide behind mysterious names and identies of annomymity.... The hard part is when we come out and face our selves and our convictions.... sound familiar?

forever the student.... I thank you for the opportunity to learn..

[YODA]

There is no need to win.

I have no desire to "win" anything. Why are you being do defensive?

I happen to have a different view to you - without that there would be no discussion.

[Mike O'Leary]

fair enough....

[YODA]

Ah - resolution :D

(((((Hugs)))))

:D

[tuney30]

If learning to fight was "JUST A SIDE EFFECT", then why do people see martial arts as self defence, i agree that the better person is benefit of learning to fight.

[pgm316]

During a fight, what do you think is the right state of mind?

I've heard many different theories, some say be relaxed & clear your mind, the old no-mindness theory. But will this make you too laid back and not aggressive enough? The other extreme is we're people believe all thats important is being able to switch on that aggressiveness and attack with some real spirit.

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by pgm316
During a fight, what do you think is the right state of mind?

I've heard many different theories, some say be relaxed & clear your mind, the old no-mindness theory. But will this make you too laid back and not aggressive enough? The other extreme is we're people believe all thats important is being able to switch on that aggressiveness and attack with some real spirit.

I think there are different answers for different situations. I think there's much merit in being able to just switch on controlled aggression in a very scary situation. On the other hand, as a bouncer I had to be cool, calm and collected to ensure a) the minimum use of force, and b) that I could keep an eye on all developments around me and coordinate the activities of my colleagues.

On yet another hand, I think the answer also lies in the answer I give to the following question: "Don't you get scared in the middle of a fight?" to which my reply is "I don't have time to worry about that". It all happens so quickly that thoughts about fear or a particular mindset go out of the window. I'm too busy attending to the business in hand. Does that count as 'no-mind' I wonder?

Mike

[pgm316]

I agree with you Mike, I've been in similar situations. Its difficult to explain whats going on in your mind. Its a difficult subject to explain and more or less impossible to recreate during training however realistic you make it.

Some times you can be very calm and collective, stragely relaxed in way, other times its been more like fighting like an animal with little technique. Maybe your mind changes if you think your not going to be able to handle it in a calm & collective way.......

I'm not sure how much fear comes in to this.

[Bon]

Self defense ? I disagree strongly with martial arts being for self defense! They're not for self defense, they're for fighting! Nothing more, nothing less.

I don't know if Martial_Artist posts here, but I loved his definition, which was to look up the meaning of both words.

Martial: Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
Art: A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities; A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods; Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation.

While you may not be studying martial arts to learn how to fight, that's what they were created for. The primary goal is learning how to fight, fitness, health, etc. all come as side benefits and are paramount to being able to study an art!

[Cain]

Oh brother :rolleyes: why does not anyone understand that everybody has his own specific idea of the martial arts? There is no goal in the martial arts, only those we make ourselves.

|Cain|

[TkdWarrior]

bon No Martial_artist doesnt post here...
No MA does hav only one goal cain...it's defense/offense...
if u go to MA class just to shape up ur butt n loose that double chin then IMHO u r just as dangerous to urself or community as a "Monkey playin with a AK-47" because u only work as to loose those lbs not for figthing so when u hav to use...there may be chance of risking urself n ur luved ones...
frankly i say mostly to those ppl if u want to loose lbs then go do yoga,aerobics,tae bo..
if u r looking for spirituality then join those on going spirituality camps/gurus etc...
there's no room for these kind of ppl...
if u put urself into it(MA) then both of these comes later with understanding of life...
m sorry for hard words but it's truth to me...
-TkdWarrior-

[Bon]

I'm saying martial arts were created for fighting...

You can train in martial arts for whatever reason you want, even if it's just to say 'I have a black belt', I don't care.. But, the martial arts are about fighting. Not everyone trains for that reason, and that's fine.

[Cain]

Ya....I guess.....please don't hurt me, I m too young to die :D but that was just wat I thought......and here's wat I think -

Sure MA does hv one goal, but too many ppl fail to see it, everybody hv their own reason for being in the Martial arts, I hv many partners in my class who do it just for fun, some do it just for achieving the splits, while some just want to learn how to break jaws.......u see wat I mean?

Only a person can make the goal, not the art

|Cain|

[Cain]

Gee!!! I kinda mixed up in my first sentence, second para.......just ignore that n read the rest

|Cain|

[Andy Murray]

If you want to learn how to fight....then fight, simple as that.

Hopefully we have all learned that fighting is only ever a last resort.

[TkdWarrior]

<If you want to learn how to fight....then fight, simple as that.
Hopefully we have all learned that fighting is only ever a last resort.>
agreed with every single word said.
-TkdWarrior-

[ROBERT]

I know many martial artists that are good fighters but are in lousy shape. I also know many people who are in excellent shape that are lousy fighters.
Would you say that a sumo wrestler trains to improve his shape or to improve his wrestling skills?

There are easier ways to get into shape than martial arts.

Just my 2 cents,
Robert

[Ti-Kwon-Leap]

CAUTION! What you are about to read is my opinion...

It seems fairly obvious that a "side effect" of martial arts training is any quality/benefit that is *other* than the original objective.

You can argue all you want that the only objective of martial art is to wage war but the fact is even real war has many facets to it. To say that foot soldier joined "to help his country" and somehow ended up learning to fight in the process may not always be the case.
Conversely, saying that a communications expert or medic's function (or goal for that matter) amounts to oil the killing machine is also erroneous.

Each time I began studying a different discipline I had a different goal, most of the time it was to be a more complete martial artist.

If that meant being more able to defend myself against possible attacks, that would be true.
If that meant I would feel more confident, secure and more at peace with the world, again, true.

If that meant that I would more easily be able to take apart a sparring partner, yeah okay. :Angel:

I guess my point is martial arts training is a personal odyssey , each as unique as the individual. Thank God that it doesn't turn its students into uncontrolled brutes... usually quite the opposite, unless you count the aggressive posturing sometimes alluded to on this board :D ;) :D

[Acekicken]

Originally posted by Mike O'Leary
:woo:

Now that i got your attention hahahahha

A submission for discussion..

I have read dicussion on this forum about which is the most effective martial art. I have read statements and disagreements on how kata, technique and even breathing should be done. I have heard comment about how training hard and getting tough are the essence of the martial arts. I submit that learning how to fight is a side effect of training and that the goal of training is to create a healthier, happier, more secure individual..... any comments..........?????????????????????????????


Mike.....:Angel:


What Came 1st The Martial Artist or The Fighter???

[Mike O'Leary]

hmmm who came first the fighter or the martial artist???? good question... but is it relative..... there are many cultures that have fighters without martial arts... there are many martial arts that no longer focus on fighting....


Is it a relavant question....?????????????????????????????


mike

[darlph]

Martial art moves were invented for self defense, against predators. When that neanderthal ducked to avoid the claw of the predator who had him cornered, there was your first bob and weave. When he raised his arm to to avoid getting hit in the head.... you get the picture. Then when hunting for food..then power...
It took a more modern man to put together moves and patterns and call it a style. Each region had it's own view of motion. Just like language. Look at the different styles of Kung Fu or Karate. And then to top it off, each style changed with its passing to another generation, just like evolution.
Check out the evolution of a staff or kama... from farm tools to weapons.
But the one common denominator of all forms and styles is how it is used by the human who wields it. And that human has a good idea of what his body can do if he has trained welled. And the reactions and movements are automatic bwecause they have been "progamed" into to his body memory.

[Mike O'Leary]

My question was:

Given the dicussion.... was it a relavant question?

mike

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Mike O'Leary


I submit that learning how to fight is a side effect of training and that the goal of training is to create a healthier, happier, more secure individual..... any comments?


Mike

Commenting on your core question, it would seem that you are asking for more than one answer.

You ask;

Why train, if you do not want to know how to fight?

Why train if you do not want o be happier, healthier and more secure?

If I've misinterpreted you, then please clarify!

[Mike O'Leary]

can you quote the context I am supposed to have said those things in....

mike

[Andy Murray]

I thought I already had Mike???

[Mike O'Leary]

well you have to remember this quote has been going on for a few months....... I dont remember saying those things and if you dont want to quote the passage that "I" wrote them in... well i guess thats that?

mike

[Andy Murray]

We seem to be missing each other here Mike. I quoted your original post there;

I submit that learning how to fight is a side effect of training and that the goal of training is to create a healthier, happier, more secure individual..... any comments?

I then interpreted that and asked;

Commenting on your core question, it would seem that you are asking for more than one answer.

You ask;

Why train, if you do not want to know how to fight?

Why train if you do not want o be happier, healthier and more secure?

If I've misinterpreted you, then please clarify!

[Mike O'Leary]

I submitted for discussion that the goal of training was perfection of character... I never said what you quoted me saying..

[Andy Murray]

Sorry Mike, but you did.
The quote is from the first post you made when you started the thread, and the section I quoted was the last sentence of the main paragraph therein!

[Solane]

Dam that pesky quote button!!!
If Andy hadn't used it you might have been right Mike. :)

Oh no here comes scooby doo. !!!!!

:)

[pgm316]

Did this thread draw any conclusions after 5 pages, or is that a silly question :o



I submit that learning how to fight is a side effect of training and that the goal of training is to create a healthier, happier, more secure individual..... any comments?


My conclusion, learning to fight is more than a side effect. People will train for different reasons. Many people consider themselves happy, healthy and secure enough, so they won't be the goals.

The main goal still being learning how to fight, but the reason you go, is just because you enjoy going.

Like all hobbies, you don't knit because you want a new jumper, but because you like knitting :D

Sorry if I've I'm going over old ground again....

[Mike O'Leary]

Actually you have hit the nail right on the head.


You are absolutly right.. people train because they enjoy it. They enjoy the fellowship, the exercise, many things.... and if 20 years after training we are still there to learn how to fight,,,, well sorry.. but if you havent learned by now... well time to move on...

Long term training..... certainly when we start it is about fighting... but what about 3 years later... perhaps by then we are perfecting sport techniques... kata or drills.. What about 10 years later.. perhaps we are working on how well we know our subject and perfecting ways to teach it. What about 20 years down the road... Is your soul reason for training 3 or more times a week to learn how to fight? You are now 40 or 50 years old... havent you learned to stay out of fights yet? Havent you learned to refine your technique...

There comes a time in training where we do not feel the need to jockey for position... where we are not really threatened by comments people may make at us... where we enjoy training for training sake.. where we enjoy the dicipline because we know it is improving us as people... where we see the exercise as prolonging our lives.... and really... learning how to fight... yes.. were doing that also.. but it goes way past that.. frankly I became fairly proficient as a fighter a number of years ago. I still hone and refine skills and techniques... and I try as i get older to maintain a pace and focus... but frankly.. I train for other reasons.... I no longer feel the need to "learn how to fight" I focus more on .... "Learning how not to fight" .... as you get older.. that focus is much easier on the body...


well done..


Thanks pgm.... great post.......

[Andy Murray]

:mad: