Low kick defences

[YODA]

Hi MAPers :D

Defenses against the low Thai kick to the thigh...

Ajarn Chai (Our MT boss-man) teaches 9 defences to this kick.

What's yours?

[Andy Murray]

Cry like a girlie and give him my pin number?.

Never got my head round blocking with the shin, but a variation, is move away with it, take the kick on the calf, and hook the kicking leg with the blocking leg. Pull the kicking leg out towards straight to unbalance the kicker with a good old clout round the luggole to boot ;)

Never tried it against anyone good though Yoda. Maybe you'll indulge me sometime!

[morphus]

How Low master Yoda??? Are we talking knee height or lower??
I don't really know any defence for this eccept get out the way - attack - block with outer leg.
Enlighten me master!

[YODA]

Andy: We must try that sometime :D

Morphus: Thigh height.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Step back would be my favourite. Alternatively step round and in and lift the leg for a kick of your own, if the Thai kick does still reach you you should be close enough in that your knee will hit their thigh, and you're set up for a kick or punching counter. At thigh height though a downwards block or upwards block would work quite nicely, or double forearm. Quite a range.

Note: I've never blocked a Thai thigh kick, only Choi, TKD and Karate, some I'm working from my experience of those and otherwise guessing.

[Kat]

Firstly always remove the target.(get out of the way)

Rather then steping backwards always take the angle45 forward oppisite the attacking leg/whatever.
Go a single leg.

Take the 45 forward and put out a stomp/front kick/whatever towards the hip/groin/surporting or kicking joint.

Lift the target leg up(out of the way) spit in his eyes and rush the dude.

Just shoot in from 3 ms
:D
Most of our stuff works on movement first and not blocking,generally we attack attacks in order to distract and piss off the dudeso that we can get in close,usually arms for arms legs for legs.The closer you can get on the kicks orgin the less power they develope and more chance you can break there balance.

[YODA]

Some good thoughts so far guys - keep 'em coming :D

I'll post my list of nine (and the 4 I use often) tomorrow.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Actually now that I think about it if its similar to a swing kick then most likely I'd go for an upwards block (also known as scooping, I love that block), and move in with elbow strike/takedown.

[Darzeka]

I'd already more than likely changed to the opposite lead leg from the guy if he showed any thai stylings in his approach, from here if he decides to kick my lead leg it will have to be low and then you just pick up the foot and move in after the kick has gone under my foot.
Or if you notice him going for the kick then its not very hard at all to move around him to the side (follow your lead leg and end up almost behind him).

If I got caught with the same lead leg as he then until he gets past kicking range I'd be watching for the kick and when it comes then lift your lead leg and heel kick either his shin or knee. It won't hurt your foot,.. much as he won't be anywhere near his maximum power with the kick from here you will be in better position and he will be in pain.
I also like the move back (to the side wherever you think is best place to counter from) when he kicks then rush in while he is of balance due to missing with a high velocity kick (maybe even turned round). This could even manage to get you into position for a reverse hip throw/reverse hip neck squeeze (back to back then you pull them around your hip and back. They land on their head - hurts a lot!!!).

[YODA]

One thing is clear from the above - some of you have obviously never had this kick thrown at you "with intent".

Here is the basic set of defences that we use / teach. * = the ones that I personaly have had most success with.

*1. Evade backwards (not as simple as it seems)
*2. Leg Sheild (Lifting the leg to block using the TOP of the shin - needs to be done at the correct angle - if you lift your leg straight up you're going down! Also you need to be covered from the middle & high kicks at the same time)
3. Leg Shield with cut kick (Skipping kick into supporting leg off the leg shield)
4. Attacking leg shield (Actually attacking his shin)
*5. Direct Cut Kick (Requires LOTS of timing)
6. Teep (foot jab) interception at the upper knee
*7. Teep (foot jab) interception at hip or body (or groin!)
8. Teep (foot jab) interception to the supporting knee
9. Leg Shield & pick up (hooking your same side hand over the kick & lifting it - counter with knee or cut kick)

[Cain]

I might add that a kick to thigh telegraphs your intentions , if you know the kick is coming why not just pick up your leg and counter squarely in your opponent's face?
|Cain|

[Cain]

Umm ok Yoda nice techniques you replied kinda along with me.
|Cain|

[YODA]

if you know the kick is coming

If only it were so simple.

[Cain]

Ahhh! Yoda, if you are not able to see the kick coming how would you block it? Much less counter. I only meant to say the I prefer a good counter instead of a block.
|Cain|

[YODA]

Ah - I see...

"Know it's coming"

"See it coming"

--- These are very different.

[Cain]

Umm....ok u got me there :(

*Cain thinks about the attack and is scared because he does not know how to defend it*
:D :D :D :D

Will have to think about it a little....
|Cain|

[pgm316]

I’d only stop a low kick like that with my own leg. Pushing my own leg into the attack to take it on the top of my shin.

Ideally I’d either move out of range or closer to the attacker taking the kick higher up on their leg to take some sting out of it.

A more advanced technique, which needs more anticipation and is difficult against a good kicker. Is another I think Yoda mentioned. That of stopping the kick with a kick quickly thrown at the attackers kicking leg. Although I did see this used by a friend in a real situation, so I’ve got a bit more faith in it now!

A lot of people teach stopping a kick like that with your arm then picking the leg up. Its very likely your arm would get too badly hurt to pick their leg up. Although picking the leg up if possible is still a good technique, I find difficult to do in reality though.

[waya]

I use mainly one defense against low level kicks like that. Generally I will use a shin block and counter with a kick from the same leg. The type of kick varies depending on which leg I block with and the distance to be covered.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

With upwards block rather than trying to stop the kick with your arm then catch you're usually trying to come from behind the kick and pull up, after getting out of the way.

[YODA]

Hmmmmm........... can you re-word or expand on that for me Jimmy. Can't make a word of sense of it!

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I'll give it a try.

Upwards block isn't exactly trying to stop the kick by pitting force against force, nor by simply accelerating the kick past you so they overbalance. Even someone reasonably flexible is going to lose a lot of power to their leg when its suddenly yanked higher than they expected, and they will go off balance. Since you've also got hold of their leg you can side kick or swing kick to the supporting knee, or to be honest anything you want.

I suppose its a catch more than a block.

[YODA]

What are you catching the kick with?

Are you somehow stopping the kicks movememnt first or just catching it?

What actually stops the kick from hitting you?

[Kat]

Sorry I have to point this out
I am very surprised that so many of you stress or teach moving straight backwards.Particularly those of you involved in ring comps but for the self defense people as well.
Why,
to go directly backwards is to simply encourage your attacker to follow without any alteration to his momentum,considering that most arts train in a linear attack stlye and that many are middle distance attacks all you have done is step back into this trained target distance and area.Unless your stategy is to work the ropes,you will find there is only so many steps you can take directly backward within a ring enviroment.

Why use angles?
Forces your opponent to follow YOU
Uses the ring area efficently
By angling 45 degrees backwards you evade the attack, change his direction of attack and create distance.
By steping sideways you can evade the attack,force his change of direction and maintian distance.
By stepping 45 degrees forward you evade the atttack and close distance forcing defensive movement.
By stepping 45 and attacking well enough said

Linear movement is inbuilt in everyone in times of stress.Rather then rely on this predictable form of movement I beleive in training timing,distance and speed into fluid/powerfull anglar and circular movement to be an important basis for comp or self defence practioners.

[dredleviathan]

Hi Yoda et al ,

Good list that you have there. I was wondering when you talk about the leg shields do you also include cross blocks into that category (i.e. a crush with the opposite leg)? I find that I have more success in actually attacking the kick using the cross block.

As you mention the backwards evasion is not always possible and not necesarily the best move anyway. As Kat pointed out its surprising that so many people rely on this as a tactic as it does encourage the opponent to come in on you. Unless of course this is all part of your plan (ABD for instance). It's far quicker to just lift for the crush and I really love to extend my opposing arm out for a blind/baffle in their face (if nothing else its annoying:) ).

Occassionally we practice the direct cut kick with an intial overwrap (i.e. move off on what in Kali is the female triangle, overwrap the kick and then cut kick). It doesn't need quote as good timing as the direct cut kick as it allows a margin of error. However it isn't straight Thai and really leads into a takedown/submission scenario. Oh and I've just realized this is more appropriate at the rib level rather than thigh... must pay attention to details like this!

As I'm now at rib height... one I like from Kali and is quite useful if you are in half guard temporarily - underhook/scoop the kick with your lead hand (as its already low) and then pivot into the kick to attack the leg with your reear elbow (secoh)... just above the knee seems pretty effective... again this leads into takedowns etc and isn't appropriate for Thai boxing in the ring.

Having said all that, and getting back to the thigh kick scenario, I pretty much have most success with the techniques you have asterisked. I don't really like the backwards evasion unless its accompanied by passing the kick with myt lead hand to some extent and then moving straight in. I never manage to get the teep onto the kicking leg and therefore also go for the hip or body and the shield with pick-up I find hard unless the kick is aimed a little higher (end up fumbling for the pick-up when its that low).

Jamie

[LilBunnyRabbit]

What are you catching the kick with?

Inside of your forearm, coming up from underneath. Think of being at a swimming pool and scooping water at your kids to make them squeal.


Are you somehow stopping the kicks movement first or just catching it?

You absorb the kick's movement as you catch, your arm providing some resistance but not enough to take the full impact, and gradually slowing the leg. The fact that you're yanking their leg upwards often prevents people from putting any further energy into the kick.


What actually stops the kick from hitting you?

You've already moved back out of range enough to prevent anything other than a light contact.

[pgm316]

Would you use this against a low kick Jimmy? I'd be worried about taking the force of a kick on my arm. And what if the kick isn't a straight kick, which it may well not be, then it makes catching much more risky. I think I'd only use that technique if I'd managed to side step a fairly high kick. Trying to do it stepping back can be risky, you've got to judge the range just right or the move either won't work or end up taking a direct hit.

[simonlarcombe]

I think blocking kicks in Muay Thai with your arms could be incredibly dangerous because you would probably get your head taken off at the same time :-)

Assuming the kick is coming for the front leg, how about a knee to the body from the front leg, I think if your opponent is kicking his/her guard would probably be slightly high and you might get through and avoid the kick whilst keeping a good defence and possibly putting your opponent off balance. You'd need to be quick!

I liked the idea about trapping with both legs. I think this would require a lot of practice to keep your structure strong but if done correctly would probably be very effective.

[pgm316]

are we talking about a low kick defences?

[simonlarcombe]

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking?

If you want to know what we are talking about specifically, this is the answer:


As I understand it we are talking about the Muay Thai kick to the thigh.

From my short time practicing at Muay Thai this is, for example:

Facing your opponent in a normal Thai Boxing fighting stance (lets say left leg forwards, both you and your opponent). Your opponent kicks to the inside of your thigh (on your lead leg, left) with his/her shin.

Thai boxers like to break your roots!


But if you are questioning why I am not actually using a defensive move here, this is the answer:


Not being where the attacker is stricking is probably the best possible defence there is. Using this movement to counter at the same time would be a good move.


Or maybe you are wondering why I think the guard may be slightly high? It only takes a very small adjustment to give you the advantage. There is no specific reason why the guard should be any higher but I think that a great deal of fighters will raise their guard a little even if they don't realise it.


Simon :-)

Ps Just seen this which might be a good defence :woo:

:eek:

[pgm316]

I was just a bit puzzled with the mention's of being hit in the head and the use of a rising block.

I find theres often little option than takinng the hit on the shin if the attacker is a decent kicker. In which case they'll give you little chance to respond, such as to move to the side or out of range. Only other option being to kick the kickers leg. But one thing I wouldn't try is to stop it with my arm :O

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Would you use this against a low kick Jimmy? I'd be worried about taking the force of a kick on my arm. And what if the kick isn't a straight kick, which it may well not be, then it makes catching much more risky. I think I'd only use that technique if I'd managed to side step a fairly high kick. Trying to do it stepping back can be risky, you've got to judge the range just right or the move either won't work or end up taking a direct hit.

Yep, without a doubt. Works brilliantly against low kicks. Remember that you're not taking the full brunt of the kick on your arm, you're slowly absorbing the impact, and raising the leg at the same time to destroy the power in the kick.

However timing is essential, there's a reason we teach it at black belt level and not before.

[simonlarcombe]

Hi pgm316

Sorry.... Should have been more specific.

The reference I was making to a block with the arms was in repsonce to some other posts suggesting this. I meant lower block.

Imagine being faced with a Thai Boxer, they use a low kick (to your thigh) and you try and block it with your arms. What do you think the Thai Boxer is going to do? He's going to expose the gap you've just opened and knock your block off!

[LilBunnyRabbit]

That's why you only use one arm, ever.

[pgm316]

I see what your saying, I agree, wouldn't be a good thing to do!

Apart from that I don't think my arm would stand up to blocking a kick from a Thai boxer.......

[simonlarcombe]

I think you'd be very lucky to pull off blocking with the arm(s). But it depends on the situation, on the street you have far more options, in the ring it's a little different.

Taking into consideration the distance and the angle I think it would be difficult to position yourself 1) to deflect the kick 2) to keep your defence closed, without having your arm broken.

These guys kick hard, I mean really hard (why do you think they use the shin? It's so that they don't break their feet!).

Maybe a Thai Boxer would care to contribute on how they deal with it, it happens all the time in the ring. From what I've seen they don't really do much to avoid it (except that they probably move with it), just get on with it but there may be more too it than meets the eye (there usually is!).

From my short time at Muay Thai I learnt to defend the upper half of my body with hands and arms and the lower half with legs.

You'd be suprised how effective a leg block can be. I saw one guy block a shin kick with his shin and break the other guys leg (not very nice!)...he'll never fight again...this is a tough sport!

[pgm316]

Originally posted by simonlarcombe

From my short time at Muay Thai I learnt to defend the upper half of my body with hands and arms and the lower half with legs.


Something we also do in Kung Fu, even though some Kung Fu people will teach you blocking techniques that risk breaking your arm.

One thing I wouldn't do, is try blocking a kick one arm. It would probably go straight through. A leg is far stronger than an arm. I'd either try to move or double block it.

[simonlarcombe]

Going forward is a good option as it closes the gap and the kick would have little power. But again, double block leaves you wide open for a much more final attack.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

You'd be suprised how effective a leg block can be. I saw one guy block a shin kick with his shin and break the other guys leg (not very nice!)...he'll never fight again...this is a tough sport!

Fifty fifty that he'd have broken his own. Just depends who's done more conditioning, and hence who's bones are more brittle.


Apart from that I don't think my arm would stand up to blocking a kick from a Thai boxer.......


One thing I wouldn't do, is try blocking a kick one arm. It would probably go straight through. A leg is far stronger than an arm. I'd either try to move or double block it.

Sorry, should've clarified. Our blocks aren't the classical block, they're deflections, so there is no 'going straight through', you're just changing the trajectory to be harmless to you.

[simonlarcombe]

I personally think that the leg block can have more strength than the kick in Muay Thai, because of the angle of the leg. But, of course, I could be wrong! :-)

Most of the blocks I've ever learnt are deflections too but look at the angle. Where could you deflect the kick to? It is coming between your legs...ouch!

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Front kick? Side step and deflect it to the side. Swing kick, deflect it downwards or upwards. Linear kick (side kick for example) any direction you choose.

[simonlarcombe]

Just out of interest what is Choi Kwang Do?

[YODA]

Originally posted by simonlarcombe
Just out of interest what is Choi Kwang Do?



ROFLMAO - Here we go :D

Ahem.....

Look in the Choi Kwang Do forum :D

[simonlarcombe]

:eek: OK sorry, thanks etc... lol :D

[pgm316]

Classical blocks, eh what?

Its going to get into another choi debate, i can feel it :D

Taking the strike to the leg doesn't mean it will do as much damage to yours, you have more choice where to take the impact. If you step in and hit high up on their leg with your upper shin you'll do a lot more damage to them! ;)

You may very well struggle to redirect a fast powerfull kick. You might find half of your anatomy redirected at the same time!

You would leave youself more open double blocking, although I wouldn't use my arms to block a low kick anyway. Just that its less risky to double a kick and leave yourself open than try and take the impact on one arm.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Classical blocks, eh what?

Its going to get into another choi debate, i can feel it

I meant classical as in the literal definition of the action. Stopping an object by superior force in a collision with another object.


Taking the strike to the leg doesn't mean it will do as much damage to yours, you have more choice where to take the impact. If you step in and hit high up on their leg with your upper shin you'll do a lot more damage to them!

You'll also have stepped in and occupied yourself. You'll still be risking damage. If they shorten the range of the kick while its in the air (as in pull the leg in, not just cut short the trajectory) you'll have a knee against shin contest. If they cut the kick short, or see what you're doing, then they can find any of a hundred ways round it. Sorry, just too many risks for my liking. I've seen it work. I've also seen it fail.


You may very well struggle to redirect a fast powerfull kick. You might find half of your anatomy redirected at the same time!

Not really. To prevent a kick from hurting you really don't need to do much to its trajectory. For example with swing kick there's a great trick, sink your weight back to get out of the way, and block the leg past you. They'll either overbalance or spin around.


You would leave youself more open double blocking, although I wouldn't use my arms to block a low kick anyway. Just that its less risky to double a kick and leave yourself open than try and take the impact on one arm.

Its even less risky to not take the impact at all.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by ckdstudent


You'll also have stepped in and occupied yourself. You'll still be risking damage. If they shorten the range of the kick while its in the air (as in pull the leg in, not just cut short the trajectory) you'll have a knee against shin contest. If they cut the kick short, or see what you're doing, then they can find any of a hundred ways round it. Sorry, just too many risks for my liking. I've seen it work. I've also seen it fail.



What height are you thinking as a low kick? Maybe we should have defined the kick a bit more first. To me it would be anything thigh height or lower. Either a roundhouse type kick or a straight kick to any part of you’re leg.

Maybe you’re thinking of the kick as being higher, because I can’t imagine using an arm at this height as being effective.

When you use the shin to strike a kick, you’re moving the point of impact forward maybe two feet, they’d really struggle to shorten their kick in an effective way once they’ve thrown it.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Low kick would be what I'd think of as knee height or lower, hence sinking back to avoid it. The problem is with this low you have to reach to block the leg, so its better to get out of the way. Generally above knee height you can do a block with relative ease.

[pgm316]

I thought you said redirecting it with your arm was the best thing to do!? :D

Yoda classed it as thigh height, the low thai boxing kick.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Nope, I said redirecting it with your arm was the best block you could do. The best thing you can do is not be in the way.

At least I think that's what I said. I'm kinda out of it at the moment.

[YODA]

Hi MAPers

If you have a fast connection go here & download the video at the bottom. Some good footage of the low Thai kick in action.

Ernesto Hoost Greatest Hits (http://www.sherdog.com/videos/hoost/hoostvideo.htm)

[pgm316]

Could you redirect that?

[YODA]

Sure - but you'd need a good game controller and plenty of "Bullet time" LOL!

:p :p :p

[dredleviathan]

Shhhheeeeeee- IT! Gulp...

Taking my earlier statements into consideration I only have one defence against a low leg kick... run like bloody hell!

[pgm316]

LOL Have you plyed Max Payne? He'd redirect it, he could also redirect a bullet ;)

[YODA]

In all fairness that is one helluva kick - and as I said elsewhere, just 'cos you can't slip a pro's jab doesn't mean slipping the jab is a poor technique.

Still - Yeeouch :D

[YODA]

Slightly OT (there are a few nice leg kicks though) --- if you want to see how the Thai head kick works check out this one!

Peter Aerts Greatest Hits (http://www.sherdog.com/videos/aerts/aertsvideo.htm)

* Of course, this is "just sport". These guys can't fight "In the street" LOL!

Bwahahaaaaaaa........

[Greyghost]

i've got it....an easy way to avoid getting kicked......

simply apologise to the muay thai exponent for whatever it is you've done/haven't done/or for any reason he wants you to....and walk away praying that your flashy smile and charm won his cold heart.

[YODA]

Nah - I do have an answer to the low kick - it's made of rattan though :D

As larry Hartsell told me back in '88 - "Sometimes you get the bear - sometimes the bear gets you"

[simonlarcombe]

Re: Video footage...

He's pretty good eh!

But... if you want to see very intense Muay Thai fights you should see the lighter weights, especially the amatures. "You've got 3 minutes to destroy your opponent!".

I stick by my guns... The only defence I can see against this is moving forward, perhaps with a knee but you would need to be VERY fast.

Or... see how he does it, just be faster, they go for the kick, you kick them.

Another interesting question would be, how do you fight a Thai Boxer full stop? What approach would you take?

When I learnt Muay Thai it became quite obvious that no set style is better, it's down to who is the best fighter. I saw boxers beat thai boxers, judo guys beat thai boxers and vice verca.

[pgm316]

My technique would be to beat them on the ground! A good technique considering I'd be on the ground pretty soon anyway! :D

A drinking partner told me a similar thing Yoda, "Sometimes you devour the bar, sometimes the bar devours you!" ;)

[YODA]

Another interesting question would be, how do you fight a Thai Boxer full stop? What approach would you take?

By either being a better Thai Boxer - or failing that taking the fight to an environment that he doesn't function well in, e.g. the ground. But that means you MUST have a GOOD understanding of how MT works - not a theoretical "web surfing" or "video watching" understanding but an understanding that comes from practical experience. Find a good MT club, train for a couple of years, have a few fights, spar with them using non MT tools - get in the kitchen! Do!

[simonlarcombe]

Ground fighting! Yes good idea... Muay Thai boxers might be prone to a Jujitsu Style approach, they like to grapple, and you should never hold on to someone who wants to take you to the floor. Could be a flaw in the technique outside the sporting environment.

[YODA]

Could be a flaw in the technique outside the sporting environment.

Not if the other option is getting your ass whupped!

Groundfighting is not an ideal scenario - but going to the ground intentionally and continuing the fight there is way better than going to the ground unconcious LOL!

[pgm316]

I trained that way for a while, just long enough for it to scare me and to teach me the painfull basics! :)

I really wouldn't like to train that way all the time. Another thing they concentrate on is conditioning. So if they don't hack you to the ground quickly they'll burn you out! On the other hand they only have the same tools as us, they don't do anything the rest of us can't learn to do!

[simonlarcombe]

Hi Yoda

Maybe now you would like to enlighten us on "Fistic Law"?

Or is this the wrong place? :-)

Simon

[YODA]

Yes simon - this is the wrong place.

Its' the wrong person too LOL!

I'm sure Andy D will be able to give you a much better insight into this that I can.

Basically it's the ultimate expression of the "Daily Decrease" that many JKD people adhere to - for me it is far too idealistic. If only it where that simple.

Post a Q of the JKD forum - I'm sure Andy will pick it up there.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

By either being a better Thai Boxer - or failing that taking the fight to an environment that he doesn't function well in, e.g. the ground.

I'd say being a better fighter in general would work. Unless you're fighting in the ring.

Failing that a couple of whacks with the nearest bottle or stool couldn't hurt.

[YODA]

Hey Jimmy - he can pick up a bottle or chair too ya know?

I'd say being a better fighter in general would work. Unless you're fighting in the ring.

Sorry - you've lost me there. Care to elaborate? How do you get to be this "Better Fighter"

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Simple, how good a fighter you are is independent of your style, and much more dependent on natural ability, training, and common sense.

Basically I was just trying to say that you wouldn't necessarily need to be a Thai Boxer to beat a Thai Boxer.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

And now that the video's downloaded, yes, you could redirect that kick, if you were his sort of level. The mid-level one anyway, the lower level one you'd want to dodge. The higher level one you could block up and do evil stuff with. Again though, if you had his type of speed and strength.

[pgm316]

You don't need to be a Thai boxer, true. However you may need to be able to defend against Thai Boxer style attacks. And many styles don't teach throwing Thai boxing style attacks, it doesn't matter how good a fighter you are, if you haven't practiced defending against that sort of attack its unlikely you will be able to deal with it well.

[YODA]

Basically I was just trying to say that you wouldn't necessarily need to be a Thai Boxer to beat a Thai Boxer.

I agree - what I was saying is that to beat a Thai Boxer you need to understand Thai Boxing. Understand from an experiential viewpoint rather than a dogmatic viewpoint.

[dredleviathan]

Hi,

Funnily enough this kind of discussion came up last night at training. I train under Bob Breen and we were talking about where we would all like to develop our various martial skills in the future. I mentioned Thai boxing as an area that I feel deficient in...

He said something along the lines of... to fight a Thai boxer (or any other stylist but it was Thai we were talking about) you first have to become a Thai boxer. Then to beat him you have to not play his game i.e. you take him down or do something that is outside of his field of experience. Essentially you screw up his game plan. You don't try to out box a boxer do you!

Obviously the guy will be trying to do this to you too unless he really is a pure "whatever" stylist. But this is what Yoda was saying about understanding the style you are up against and then using something else to make sure that your oppponent can't deploy the tools that he wants to.

A good example: Take a pure Thai fighter in a MMA event. Then just looking at one tool, say the long knee. Nobody can refute that this is a great tool in the right time and place but its also pretty easy to shoot on. Hence the use of a shorter, upward, sharp knee in MMA type events i.e. to stop the shoot. You take the Thai base and modify it for the event.

We've also recently been working on Vale Tudo type skills with Neil McLoed. He's currently training for the Extreme Brawl on 15th December so our sessions seem to be getting more intense. Anyway many of the boxing/thai tools that we've developed in other classes are now being modified for the MMA arena. Punches, kicks, knees etc are all getting far snappier so that you don't give the guy a handle to come in on or manipulate you with.

So you understand the game and then modify it to the environement that you are fighting in. However you have to train in the style for a length of time to understand it fully enough to start modifying it.

There's no point saying "I would evade..." or "I would block.." a Thai low kick unless you have really been face to face with a Thai boxer and really understand what its like to have such a kick coming at you. Like Yoda said, you can't just watch a video, analyse the move and then pick your defence of choice. You don't have the physical experience... it would be like trying to learn Chi Sau from a book or without a partner... what's it supposed to feel like?

That isn't to say that it would be impossible of course but then you come down to natural abilities and these are harder to improve.

[YODA]

Very well said dredleviathan :D

Looks like your training is going well too :D

[simonlarcombe]

In a very vague sort of sense I would disagree with some of this.

Using the example we are on now...

(And everything from here on should probably have "I think" in front of it :-)

To fight a Thai Boxer (and win) you don't need to understand Thai Boxing.

Take it as a street scenario, if your opponent knows Jujitsu, Karate, Judo, Muay Thai, Boxing, Kung Fu, Tai Chi, Karate or JKD etc etc etc, you don't need an understanding of all the different styles in order to sufficiently defend yourself and put your opponent in a position where they cannot fight anymore.

Be aware of the sort of attacks you could face and prepare for them. Although the attacks vary they can fundamentally be broken down into a few possibilities, your body can only do what it can do. (If you are faced with a guy with telescopic arms and titanium fists you are probably in a lot of trouble :-)

Unfortunately I have seen a few nasty street fights. In one case I saw a (apparently very good, "Champion X") kickboxer get beaten very convincingly by someone who has absolutely no training in any kind of fighting whatsoever (just a nutcase).

It is impossible to train for a scenario against any style but it doesn't mean you can't effectively do it.

Having said all that; of course if you understand your opponents style very well you stand a much better chance.

As I say this is merely conjecture.

[dredleviathan]

No of course you can't prepare yourself to fight against every style of martial art. This is especially true of the opponent like the one you mention who is simply a nutter. Fighting no style... this is starting to have a familiar ring to it!

However within the context of the question of "what would you do against X,Y,Z" its impossible to say unless you have trained in X,Y,Z. If you haven't you can only postulate what you might do.

Taking Yoda's list. He gave 9 possible defenses to the Thai leg kick as taught by Ajarn Chai. Yoda then asterisked the ones that he has actually managed to have success with whilst facing this technique. He knows they work for him. My list is of those techniques that work for me is shorter than Yoda (as you would expect from my lesser experience) and also slightly different i.e. of the 9 I find several work better for me. Their all great choices some work for me, some work for Yoda and no doubt Ajarn Chai has to hold himself back by only selecting 9.

You can pull off effective counters to techniques that you haven't come up against before but this is then purely down to reaction and being well versed in fighting concepts in general. You can only prepare yourself for a certain number of eventualities and hope they are the right ones.

Another thing that Bob says: Know 5, own 3, use 1.

This is true on whatever level you look at it i.e. You know five entries on the jab, you own 3 of them totally, but when it comes down to it you can only use 1.

[pgm316]

Yeah well said dredleviathan!

That was my argument for cross training. Many people only considered cross training to add to what you can do, but its as important to prepare/test yourself against other styles.

I still think a good club should teach bits of various styles (mainly attacks) to prepare for these things. Although I accept this is only possible to a certain extent...

[pgm316]

Is being prepared for a Thai boxing attack the same as understanding Thai boxing? I don’t think it is. Although I can see how learning Thai boxing will give you the greater understanding, but I don’t think this is an effective way of preparing yourself for all situations. How many styles would you have to train in to get only a basic understanding of them.

The people that will have the problems are the stylists. In my experience, people that concentrate on one style, only learn to fight against that one style. Maybe their style is effective enough for they’re attacking needs, but what a weakness in that style to practice defence only against their attacks.

[Darzeka]

There's a solution to that - make sure your art includes everything that other styles do (at least a little bit).

In the end you can only attack in few different ways. There are an infinite number of variations on anything but only a few are actually very different from each other.

We know high kicking is bad and doesn't really but we still train it purely to learn to defend it and so we need to be good at the kick to make the learning worth while.

Just look at your body and see what possible movements you can make then get a partner and start flailing away in all the possible ways (probaly have on person attacking the other defending) just gives you a feel for the range of human movement.

[Phoenix]

What would Bruce lee do against a low kick?

1. Don't stand still to allow one to hit you?

2. Stop kick?

I would think he would attack a MT fighter the same way he attacked Chuck Norris in Return of the Dragon. When he went direct at Chucky Cheese, Chucky Cheese creamed him. So he danced around and then sneak in devasting attacks.

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by pgm316
I’d only stop a low kick like that with my own leg. Pushing my own leg into the attack to take it on the top of my shin.

Ideally I’d either move out of range or closer to the attacker taking the kick higher up on their leg to take some sting out of it.

A more advanced technique, which needs more anticipation and is difficult against a good kicker. Is another I think Yoda mentioned. That of stopping the kick with a kick quickly thrown at the attackers kicking leg. Although I did see this used by a friend in a real situation, so I’ve got a bit more faith in it now!

A lot of people teach stopping a kick like that with your arm then picking the leg up. Its very likely your arm would get too badly hurt to pick their leg up. Although picking the leg up if possible is still a good technique, I find difficult to do in reality though.

You can end up with a broken arm or 2 broken arms.

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by Kat
Sorry I have to point this out
I am very surprised that so many of you stress or teach moving straight backwards.Particularly those of you involved in ring comps but for the self defense people as well.
Why,
to go directly backwards is to simply encourage your attacker to follow without any alteration to his momentum,considering that most arts train in a linear attack stlye and that many are middle distance attacks all you have done is step back into this trained target distance and area.Unless your stategy is to work the ropes,you will find there is only so many steps you can take directly backward within a ring enviroment.

Why use angles?
Forces your opponent to follow YOU
Uses the ring area efficently
By angling 45 degrees backwards you evade the attack, change his direction of attack and create distance.
By steping sideways you can evade the attack,force his change of direction and maintian distance.
By stepping 45 degrees forward you evade the atttack and close distance forcing defensive movement.
By stepping 45 and attacking well enough said

Linear movement is inbuilt in everyone in times of stress.Rather then rely on this predictable form of movement I beleive in training timing,distance and speed into fluid/powerfull anglar and circular movement to be an important basis for comp or self defence practioners.

A roundhouse kick to the thigh is a circular attack. If you blast back (backward blast), that would get you out of range.

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
Ahhh! Yoda, if you are not able to see the kick coming how would you block it? Much less counter. I only meant to say the I prefer a good counter instead of a block.
|Cain|

of course the best block is no block. So evasion comes first. Besides, your block is anticipated, and there is sure going to be a follow up. Even if you blocked it, the follow-up may catch you dead on.

The limbs are way too fast. You best bet is to watch the trunk, as MT uses the trunk to generate the power. The trunk will telegraph the attack. But chances of your counter hitting his trunk first is close to NIL.

I would still say that blasting out of range is your best bet. Short of that, shin up to block, follow by a push kick to nuetralize follow up.

[AllOutWar]

Has anyone mentioned destructions? There has been so many replies to this thread I may have missed it. I will stay toe to toe and check destroy kicks. but if he's firing hellfire missles than I'm gonna have to avoid being kicked. If it's 1 on1 wich rarley happens on the steets than I'll take him to the ground. If not then I'm gonna check it as fast as I can and fire one back. People talk about thigh kicks wich is ok for sport but on the steets I'm aiming for knees. I do believe in Karma so yes I would feel bad but it's him or me. Besides if I fight someone it's for good reason I'm not thugged out or whatever If I strike you you had it comin

[krash999]

Does anyone train to catch the kickers instep with a shield. Very effective against a low line MT round house as i have had this done and seen my foot swell. That's why my shin pads now protect the instep as well.

The other's ideas about moving out of range are valid only if you have the space. If your up against a wall or ropes it could not be an option. Moving out of range also eliminates any counters on your part. If they cant hit you chances are you can't hit them. You might as well run away.

[YODA]

Originally posted by krash999
Does anyone train to catch the kickers instep with a shield. Very effective against a low line MT round house as i have had this done and seen my foot swell. That's why my shin pads now protect the instep as well.

Not on purpose - but it happens occasionally

The other's ideas about moving out of range are valid only if you have the space. If your up against a wall or ropes it could not be an option.

No sh1t Sherlock!

Moving out of range also eliminates any counters on your part. If they cant hit you chances are you can't hit them. You might as well run away.

That's always a good idea!

[pgm316]

Whats the sheild?

[YODA]

Originally posted by pgm316
Whats the sheild?

The Leg Shield
The leg shield is where you lift your leg to "shield" against the kick - using your shin to block / absorb the incoming kick.

[Darzeka]

I've had a new perspective imparted to me on this after our "formal" introduction to sparring.

I look at it like this.
My opponent wants to hit me.
He starts out of range. To hit me with anything he must come into range. As he moves to get into range for anything I can just go into my attack/counter attack.
The MT low round rick is a close range kick from the back leg? To get into range he must step in, rebalance then bring the leg around. As he steps in I can either move back with him (out of range), stay where I am and get kicked or attack him first.
As he comes into my kicking range I will just attack with a kick. Probably a thrust kick for range and power.

Whoever controls the range with control the fight. If you can hit your opponent hit them. This applies to all situations, you can't be moving and attacking effectively together, you have to move into your attack.
This makes attacking a defensive person very hard, which I figured out after getting smacked in the head a few times.

[YODA]

Congrats on a great post Darzeka! You have discovered interception, and you've learned it the best way - it is now YOURS :D

[Darzeka]

It kinda of turns a fight between two people who know whats gonna happen into somthing like that match between Dan Severn and Ken Shamrock in one of the early UFC's - 30 mins of circling.

But will leave most people wondering why the hell they are doing on the floor hurting so much.

How do you attack someone who is intent on doing this to you??

[YODA]

Originally posted by Darzeka


How do you attack someone who is intent on doing this to you??

Attack By Drawing

Draw the interception and counter it.

[Sonshu]

Well there are the obvious!

Dont be there
Step away
Takedowns
Jump it (not my style though)
Kick into the hip or thigh.
Side kick - If you know its coming - this puts your lead leg (most likely the one they attack) out of the way and whilst he is on the one leg it forces him back and off balance - good move!
hook the leg and all that stuff - hard to do thought

Taijitsu teaches a good one by blocking the kick with a kick - this took a while to get to grips with, like the side kick I know.

Stepping into the kick as it has a rounded motion, if you are inside the ark of the kick it dramaticaly loses its power.

The Thai defence works well for me and hurts a bit but far less than it hurts the other person, also it hurts less than getting kicked with it if you do nothing.

I think the hardest part is avoiding this as its so quick and powerful you are better using stopping methods like my old Thai roots.

SONSHU

[Andy Pandy]

Step in and sideways... get close enough for the knee or upper leg of the kick to hit you instead of the instep and it will take all the power out of it. Sounds nubby, but it's worked for me at Muay Thai almost every time, they don't expect you to move into the attack. (of course, you have to do it very quickly)

[Kwan Jang]

-I've come into this topic late and truthfully only read a few pages of the replies since it seems most(w/ a few notable exceptions) seem to have any real experience w/ dealing with this type of attack thrown by a good fighter using intent. My first introduction to muay thai came from Benny Urquidez in 1980. Benny was the first American to fight and train w/ the top Thai fighters and win. He did an exibition bout with my instructor, Ernie Reyes(Sr.), who was a world lightweight champ in full contact TKD. The forst thing he did was light up KJN Ernie w/ leg kicks and follow it up w/ elbow strikes. KJN Ernie still jokes about it today how big his eyes got. Needless to say, we began networking with Benny and others to add this to our arsenal. We have been regularly working with Alex Gong and the Fairtex Camp instuctors to keep us sharp in our muay thai skills.-My point is that this kick is going to be thrown as part of a combination and with flow. Unless you are regularly training with and against it, you are not prepared for it. Our students start training w/ and countering against it as beginners and still it can be a challenge when it's thrown well. Low parrries or leg checks cutting in at a 45degree angle followed by a punch/kick combo to break the oponents momentum and gove it back to you is my favorite stategy. If they do fire this as a single strike(good luck on this happening from a good fighter), a stop hit or kick can work. As well as A cut angle step back as used in savate, or similar footwork from arnis(counter to strike #9, or the jenga(spelling?) from capoira. Another option if they are somewhat incopetent is a pop-up kick as a counter. All of these from other systems can work but are very difficult if the leg kick is thrown as part of a well-flowing combo. Espescially if they have already scored on you with another part of the combo.

[Sonshu]

I have on occasion used it as a tester kick or just for keeping distance.

It works best I find in the Jab, cross then low kick combo. Very powerful as the kick - if either of the punches are taken or blocked high it comes as a big shock to people to be belted that low and I like the damage it scores and also the fact that often it takes the persons balance away acting as a sweep.

Lastly if you take the fighters mobility out it slows him down and hampers his fighting.

Unless he is a grappler then at least his shoot should be slower.

SONSHU

[SoKKlab]

Yodas 9:
*1. Evade backwards (not as simple as it seems)
*2. Leg Sheild (Lifting the leg to block using the TOP of the shin - needs to be done at the correct angle - if you lift your leg straight up you're going down! Also you need to be covered from the middle & high kicks at the same time)
3. Leg Shield with cut kick (Skipping kick into supporting leg off the leg shield)
4. Attacking leg shield (Actually attacking his shin)
*5. Direct Cut Kick (Requires LOTS of timing)
6. Teep (foot jab) interception at the upper knee
*7. Teep (foot jab) interception at hip or body (or groin!)
8. Teep (foot jab) interception to the supporting knee
9. Leg Shield & pick up (hooking your same side hand over the kick & lifting it - counter with knee or cut kick)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All these are fine and Dandy and represent the most Practical answers to this technique.

Re: 1) It gets alot easier to evade these kicks the harder you train, you develop a sense for it and you move away ever so slightly, so that the kick swishes by (and then pile back in)...literally inches, not huge backwards or sideways steps. Small tiny wee movement, just to take you out of range. Even better if you evade to the side a tad also.

5) Low Roundhouse Cut Kick for Kick is fine as long as you beat them to it, obviously. Be careful, as you could find yourself talking to the Floor (Well it worked when I bought the video...)

Regarding 6,7 and 8):
Important point is that although you can use the 'Stop the Army' Movement (Front Kick/ Block to the kickers leg) in one form or another, either digging the toes into the flesh of the thigh, the ball of the foot into the thigh, etc or the fllat of the Floot, as a check/ strike, your foot (toes) should be turned outward at about 45 degree angle (Ie your Foot is not pointing straight up), to avoid injury to the foot/ ankle and try to impact with the heel into the leg, this is the best tactic until you become more proficient and can peck with the toes or ball of the foot into the offending leg if you want to.

Aiming at the Kneeof the Kicking Leg is fine, but watch you don't damage the sole of the foot on his Knee. Better to impact with the Heel, if you can, but even then, be careful.

As well as these above, the more advanced ones are:

Jump over the kicking leg and either Knee to the chest or face.
This is one fluid motion and not hop skip jump then knee.
Takes lots of practice and is more of a classical technique. But a nice surprise for your adversary, watch the look of impending horror on their face as your knee looms large, flying across the horizon towards their Fizzog.

To defend against this Jumping Knee attack, strike/ push the chest or face with outstretched palm (s). There are more but that's the easiest natural movement and defence.

Jump over the Kicking leg and strike with Roundhouse to the Chest or face. Again much practice needed as you don't want to jump and get your legs taken completely out from under you.
Same as Jumping Knee regarding delivery.

9) Is a lovely move and works nicely. When their kick hits your shin and you have it angled correctly for the pick up, tilt the foot of the Blocking leg upwards so as to catch their leg descending into the trough of your instep, as you are hooking your hand over their leg.

Be very careful that they are not piling forward when they either realise that you have caught their leg, or are off balance and looking to land a couple of punches to try to get you to let go.
Remember that a good fighter or an instinctive one, will try to pull the leg back (A standard Thai tactic) so as to bend their Leg, to pull you closer to clinch or escape the catch.

Finally regarding the posting about the Shin break at a recent big fight. That was in the K-1, I can't remember who the fighters were, but just to say that the Blocking leg is much stronger than the one that's Kicking, regardless of Conditioning. Stands to reason, a sthe Blocking Leg is Bent at a Strong Angle, whereas the Kicking leg of your opponent is one piece of bone flying through the air...

What happened in the above K-1) instance, is that:

He firstly telegraphed his intent to kick (Doh!).
Then he didn't throw any hand strikes, so as to dummy the other guy and takes his attention away from the Kick that he really wanted to throw and finally (He shouldn't of telegraphed his intent at all but..):

He kicked upwards full shin, into the other guys Kao Bung Nai (Apols if Thai spelling wrong), what you probably call Cross Shield Block or some such. Anyway, he drove a full power straight leg Shin kick UPWARDS from the floor and Into the other Fighters Knee block at the Knee, hence his shin snapped like a twig.

[nicolo]

Yoda don't forget kradode te (jumping roundkick) to the face against the low kick.

[YODA]

Good stuff SoKKlab - you obviously know your Muay Thai :D

Did you know that Ajarn Surachai Sirisute is in the UK next month for a weekend seminar? In Northampton?

[SoKKlab]

Thank You Yoda and No I didn't know,
I'm a bit out of the Loop at present, because I am in the Martial Wilderness. I simply refuse to pay extortionate amounts of money to shine other peoples pads with my shins...

I am mainly training on my own or with some sweet like minded souls who let me duff them up now and then in exchange for me yabbering on about Chap ko grappling and Wianging all over the place (Bless 'em).

Do you have any details, times, dates etc of said seminar? I'd love to go if Money says yes.

Also, I am more leaning to Ling Lom now, but hell they are two heads on the same Donkey. More info Maestro please....