Falun Gong?

[binski20]

Has anyone heard of this? I got a book from the library to read, was wondering if anyone can help me understand it.

[TkdWarrior]

Falun Gong by Li Hongzi is quite good book...
the author(Mr. Li Hongzi) seems to be very knowledgeful person..
Falun gong was set of excersices which Mr Li popularised but beacuse of ppl get insance(cultivation insanity like he himself put it) it was banned in most of asian countries...
but most of Falun Gong excercise r much better than Qi-Gong(my experience with it)
i guess this will give u starters...
-TkdWarrior-

[binski20]

Insanity??
Maybe I haven't gotten to that yet. Can you explain this?
Also have you used it? I was looking into it instead of tai chi.

[TkdWarrior]

well yes insanity is the word who doesn't understand the purpose of falun Gong or Falun Dafa, if u havn't read it yet then i won't explain much cuz it's hard to explain in here, even it took a whole book to explain that ...
in easy words it's something like ppl want to do something n happened something else n they blamed it on Mr Li's Falun Dafa
yup me n one of my freind used it...
i'll say that u should look into Tai chi instead of this... becuase Falun gong can get as complicated as anything... exercises r easy to do but without Intent u cannot get full advantage of those excercises...
-TkdWarrior-

[YODA]

Here's a linki that should tell you all you need to know...

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/falungong.html

[Stickgrappler]

FWIW

my dad who has experience with hung ga and some WCK, but mostly tai chi, is a practicing buddhist. he tried some of the falun gong methods. he tells me he almost "put fire into the brain", a CMA term which means insanity/nervous breakdown kind of reaction to the training. he told me he started seeing demons. out of respect to falun gong and lack of personal involvement, i took his comments as do not practice it unless you have a trained practitioner showing you the way. he studied from the book. however, he is very experienced with respect to some of the chi gung methods and he almost went insane. i chose not to practice falun gong. YMMV (your mileage may vary).

my dad told me falun gong was a combo of buddhist concepts and chi gung/qigong. i had 2 coworkers from my old job who were practitioners who swore by it and did not seem to be insane.

again, FWIW. safe training to you.

[Mike Flanagan]

I tried a falun gong class once. It was only one and I don't profess to be an expert in qi gong, but I was not impressed. Where to begin....

The session lasted a couple of hours. It involved at least 45 minutes standing qi gong, most of it stationary and the same again sitting, again mostly stationary. This was gruelling to say the least. Students were advised to take it easy if necessary, but there was clearly an attitude that you should do it properly if you possibly could, even though some of the participants were neither young nor in good health.

The assistant teacher seemed to be about my standard of qi gong. He was due to take over the class in a few weeks. The main teacher, who visited from London on a weekly basis, seemed to ignore all the basics of good qi gong to me. Her legs were locked out straight as were her fingers. Very odd.

Before the lesson students were discussing various aspects of the art with each other. Listening in on these conversations I felt rather stupid. These people were discussing such esoteric aspects of their art it was just so far beyond my understanding. I clearly had so so very much to learn. Sadly, when the lesson started it became immediately clear to me that their real understanding of qi gong was actually very limited. They could 'talk a good fight' so to speak, but that seemed to be about it.

I had heard talk of them being something of a cult, so I was ready to have someone try and brainwash me. But there seemed to be no real hard sell, no pressure and definitely no money changing hands.

So on the whole I found them to be relatively harmless but somewhat inept.

Of course this is just my one-off experience of one Falun Gong group. And I'm seeing it in the context of my own experiences. I personally feel that 90% or more of the benefits of qi gong are not at all esoteric, and that it should mostly be viewed in as simple a way as possible. So Falun Gong sure ain't for me.

Mike

[TkdWarrior]

me n my freind hav learnt falun gong, it energise u instantly...but seeing demons...yet to saw them... n do i look like insane?? naww...or may be yea...my folks r thinking of putting me in mental hospital :D
-TkdWarrior-

[Mad-about-Bagua]

My 3 Qigong Sifus says Yoga ( especially Kundalini Yoga) may cause a similar insanity, because Yoga focussess on driving the Prana( chi) from the lower back up the spine to the head and stops and accumulates in the head. ( LINEAR PATH)
Unlike Chikung, where the focus is on circulating the chi ( Microcosmic and Macrocosmic circulations) and hence is safer than Yoga.( CIRCULAR PATH)

However since Falun Gong has strong Buddhist influence, perhaps some Yoga like practices are also practised. My Mainlainder chinese Qigong teacher say Falun Gong has caused mental Illness in many cases, causing peple to go "postal" and kill people randomly like in Columbine massacre incident.

That's why the Chinese government is prosecuting/persecuting them. It's not to do with freedom of religion ( if that was so Christians and Muslims would be persecuted to the same degree)
Most Falun Gong people especially Westerners are not aware of this and think it is Political/Religous persecution.

[Mad-about-Bagua]

In other words, Falun Gong's Qi development methods do work, but they work too FAST and in a poorly contolled fashion that is dangerous to the practioner

[Kat]

Right so that justifies volience does it???

I am not a FL Da fa practioner although I did investigate it,enough to find that I disagree with a lot of Li Hong Zhi's writting's however his medative practise's(particularly seated) are a great mix and the followers practise considerably more regularly then most IMA people within Sydney.
Within China I saw first hand miltary Police "arresting" beating several FLDF people whose only problem was that they where practising the daily meditations.Whatever the effect of there practises (that you believe) have on them, it does not justify the volience commited against individuals within the PRC.

I don't even want to touch on the "safer then Yoga" statement.

[nzric]

The way I understand, falun gong is a fast-track method of intensive chi cultivation, but that is exactly the reasons the critics state as the justification to ban it. The way I see it is if you don't have the patience to cultivate chi in the standard way/rate, why are you doing chi cultivation in the first place?

Of course that doesn't justify violence, and I suspect that the fact that falun gong is a personal development movement, with a huge following centered on cultivating the power of the individual, also plays a big part in why it is banned - given the national psyche.

So why would someone choose to practice falun gong instead of standard qi gong? I'd say the reason people risk persecution/death to practice certain exercises (instead of just doing qi gong) is simply to make a political statement about the freedom/non-freedom of the society. It is so popular now because it is a 'symbol' - it would be the same for juggling if the authorities reacted the same way.

[Kat]

Sydney People
For all those that beleive that FLDF is going to make them insane I sugest getting down to Darling Harbor and trying some out,You won't be arrested;) instruction is free,and generally good natured,at worst they will try and sell you Li hong Zhis "bible",at A$16.95 it not that much and provides understanding about the why FLDF has emerged.
I am amazed that so many people seem to make critisms of energy arts without having tried or at least investigating the methods,I guess its just easier beleiving second hand knowledge!!
Any hoo
I don't beleive it to be a "Fast track " or "causing people to go postal" it is simply another Method.

[nzric]

Sorry, I'm sure it doesn't make people go mad, I've just been thinking about reasons why people would risk their life/freedom to do an exercise. I think a lot of the reason it's become so huge is more due to the fact that it's now a political statement (that's also the reason every joe on the street knows about tibet). That's not a bad thing (I'd say it's actually very good), it's just another factor.

I live in Chatswood and walk past falun gong groups every morning on my way to work (and a yang tai chi group, and some women who look like they're doing weird qigong cheerleading. unfortunately no bagua people but a little old grandma sometimes comes down and waves around a taiji broadsword). Hey, it's whatever pushes your buttons.

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by Kat
I am amazed that so many people seem to make critisms of energy arts without having tried or at least investigating the methods,I guess its just easier beleiving second hand knowledge!!


As I've already written in this thread, I'm not impressed with falun gong and I have seen it, although admittedly only once.

From what little I've seen it seems there are better energy arts that are equally available.

Mike

[Mad-about-Bagua]

Have a look at Stickgrappler's earlier post about how his dad suffered bad side effects when he tried Falun Gong methods.

Christianity (5%) and Islam (5%) are amongst some of the other religions beside Taoism and Buddhism practised legally and openly in China. Some are persecuted for their beliefs to varying degrees. But yet there must be a reason that Falun Gong is singled out, made illegal and persecuted more vehemently than any other group. The PRC gov considers Falun a dangerous cult because in many documented cases, some of their followers did go"postal" and killed people thru mass poisoining etc. Off course you woudn't expect to read about it in the Morning Herald would you?And off couse did anyone bother to checkwith Chinese news websites if this is true?

Perhaps the Falun groups in Darling Harbour and Chatswood are benign..they are not the same as in China. Ans so it is easy to conclude they are innocent victims. Like, is the Bagua taught in Sydney the same as in Beijing ? Is the DimSum here the same as in Hong Kong?

IMHO before any Australian claims the high ground and condemn how other countries(in this case China and Falun Gong) deal with their internal problems, one should first look in one'sown backyard and identify ongoing human rights violations . And I think I need't remind anyone about current situation of aborogines, refugees , *******ization in the army ranks, coverups by the local Catholic/Anglican authoritieson child abuse .

It's far too easy to sit in one's comfortable modern suburban Sydney home and pass judgement on how others should run their country without a proper understanding of the socio-cultural-economic implcations of the issue.

Yeah most people would disagree with the death penalty, but in many countries where it is mandatory for convicted drug traffickers, drug abuse and socialdelinquency are not a social issue like in most liberal Western Countries. Crush the problem before it spreads. Got to be cruel to the small groupin order be kind to the majority.

In authoritarian Singapore or Saudi Arabia , there is a mandatory death penalty for drug trafficking or illegal possession of a firearms. Result, no big social drug or gun problem. I guess it's hard for Aussies to understand this when 80% of males between 16-35 have tried Ecstasy or Pot and don't think its a crime.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with how Falun are treated in China , just saying "before you notice the speck in your neighbour's eye, what about the board in your own"?

As for Yoga and madness , go to Google and do a search on " Kundalini Psychosis" and judge for yorself. I stress, again, it is only the Kundalini style of Yoga that has this problem.

[Kat]

Wow you are to far gone,but rather then condeming others who are condeming others,why not get some experience in the matter and then condeme LOL.
Generally I research,learn do,experience and think my own thoughts.Generally I am against all voliations of Human rights,but right now we are discussing your veiw on how individuals who practise FLDF in the PRC should have there own rights trambled on(at least thats the vibe I got)because you theorize that their QG makes them "go postal"

Any hooo (totally amazed at your ramble) you were talking about how bad FLDF is,and I take it that you will never try it or even talk to people who do it sooo????

I guess everything is inferior for you except the energy arts that you practise that way you can create a diacotomy that can justify you saying yours is the best right?LOL Including like Yoga and other forms of Qigong.But you never tried them but you don't need to right??? As yours is Better??

Sorry but it really saddens me to keep coming across this type of thinking.

PS:Mainland Chinese Media is very controlled,basically propaganda,I hope you get over there,and check out the state of the population.

[Mad-about-Bagua]

Originally posted by Kat

Not condemning, just thrust and parry of normal debate.
Sorry, didn’t mean to sound mean.
:-)
I know you are not a bad person, I just believe you didn’t get the whole picture because of limited access to information.


Originally posted by Kat
[B

Generally I research,learn do,experience and think my own thoughts.Generally I am against all voliations of Human rights,but right now we are discussing your veiw on how individuals who practise FLDF in the PRC should have there own rights trambled on(at least thats the vibe I got)because you theorize that their QG makes them "go postal"


It’s good that you did the research. The more the better.
I'm saying again, there many religions, philosophies and hundreds types of Qigong practised in China today. Yet for the govt to crackdown on this ONE group Falun Gong ( 70 Million followers), surely there must be a good reason (may not be obvious to Western Media because of chronic biased/selective reporting ) Don't the Chinese govt have anything better to do than "waste" resources on suppressing, arresting , prosecuting this group ? Wouldn’t they also like to improve their Human Rights image ? Is it possible they understand the dangers of Falun more than you and most superficial armchair observers ?
Remember how USA cracked down on David Kuresh 's Branch Davidian religious cult in Waco Texas and wiped out the whole farm with all it's inhabitants ?
That was 10 years ago in Democratic USA.
Or the 1978 Jim Jones Doomsday cult that lead to nearly 1000 people commiting mass suicide in Guyana? http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~reli291/Jonestown/Jonestown.html
Weren't they claiming to practice " harmless" religion then ?


A CLASSIC recent example of Western media misleading the Western public is how Mahatir was portrayed as encouraging Muslims to destroy Jews. I agree he is a Jew hater. But what was conspicuously left out was how he also condemned radical Muslims who resort to violent ways, archaic thinking to resolve conflict. You only have to read Singapore newspapers to see the full text of the speech. And you’d be shocked to see how much was edited out by western media. If you don’t already know, Singapore, is a non religious state, neighbour of Malaysia and not always on the best of terms with Malaysia.
Also have a look at this SMH article....more ACCURATE and balanced reporting because unlike most reports , it was written by 2 Academics- more circumspect and balanced , from UNSW.
http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2003/10/27/1067233101668.htm

So the same for Western media reporting on Falun persecution. Have they neglected to tell you how innocent people have been killed by Faluns who went postal ? Faluns who ended up in Mental Hospital. Like I said before, have a look at MAP post by “ StickGrappler” , earlier on in this thread. His own father suffered Psychotic incidences after trying Falun methods. Please as him more about it. It is not just me making a statement about Falun.


Originally posted by Kat

I have talked to people who are intimately connected to it, Chinese Medical doctors who treated such cases of mental "damage".
Have you ?


Originally posted by Kat
[B

I guess everything is inferior for you except the energy arts that you practise that way you can create a diacotomy that can justify you saying yours is the best right?LOL Including like Yoga and other forms of Qigong. But you never tried them but you don't need to right??? As yours is Better??


Not interested in superior/ inferior.
More interested in what’s SAFER.
Some people believe Pot, Ecstasy, Motorcycles, Bungee Jumping, Swimming beyond the flags are safe activities.
Others differ.
So it is like that.
I'm just putting out this info, it's up to you to decide what to do with the friendly warning.



Originally posted by Kat
[B

PS:Mainland Chinese Media is very controlled, basically propaganda,I hope you get over there,and check out the state of the population.
[/B]

Omigawd really ?
< smirk>
You mean Aussie media is 100% accurate devoid of bias and propaganda?
So it’s not true in last week’s news that Aussie media ranked rather low in terms of reporting freedom...the fact they aren’t allowed into Refugee camps ?
So what they cannot report , they speculate and inflate ?
Hmmmm WMD in Iraq eh ?
:woo:

[Andy Murray]

Easy fella's please.

[Kat]

Ahh Yeah,:confused:
Needless to say your feelings are quite different to my own,So I will continue my own practises at risk of going insane,and continue to allow others who practise Qigong to enjoy their benefits(or their insanity)that they derive from their clearly unsafe practises.That and the Yogiis as well. ;)

So just to reinterrate,I disagree with you justification for volience,and I disagree that Qigong practises alone create volient dispositions.

And I hoping you never get placed on Diplomatic Staff attached to the PRC.

Andy
Look on the bright side, at least the TJ forum is getting some posts up!!



:D :D :D

[Andy Murray]

Kat I hear ya.

Explain it all to me sometime would ya :D

[Mad-about-Bagua]

Here’s a CNN article, read again CNN :
Is setting oneself on fire not a symptom of Insanity ?
Judge for yourselves…don’t take my word
http://edition.cnn.com/2001/ASIANOW/east/01/23/china.falungong/


Mental Disorders Hotbed for "Falun Gong":
http://fpeng.peopledaily.com.cn/200007/27/eng20000727_46656.html

Falun Cuts Open His Abdomen to Look for the "Turning Law Wheel"
http://www.mingjing.org.cn/e-falun/cult/459.htm

Falun gone postal, kills 16 people
http://www.mingjing.org.cn/e-falun/cult/486.htm



“He has done harm also,” she said. “In his book, he says he will ‘implant a wheel’ in each of his disciples and that this wheel will keep on turning day and night and protect them. People believe him so much that they have cut open their own abdomens looking for this wheel.”
http://www.asianweek.com/2002_02_08/news_falun.html


Suicide, Madness and Mayhem
http://fpeng.peopledaily.com.cn/special/fagong/1999111600F119.html


Why did more than 200 million Falun Gong practitioners dare not see the doctor ?
http://www.crienglish.com/144/2003-3-10/17@4012.htm

BBC article : "He cut his abdomen open with a pair of scissors, said the agency, and subsequently died "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/401268.stm

"As bad as Narcotics "
http://fpeng.peopledaily.com.cn/199911/04/eng19991104F109.html

From a DANISH skeptics website : "The Dangers of Falun "
http://www.skeptica.dk/2001/03_5_falungong.htm


Also, I have been misquoted. I didn’t say ALL YOGA styles, only Kundalini Yoga is linked to Kundalini Psychosis. It might be useful to do more web research. Rhetorical unsubstantiated statements aren’t enlightening.

[Kat]

Ohh Boy!
Thanks for the links they are interesting.But far from definative.It seems like you are motivated by the old "I am right,there is no other form of belief" mode of arguement.
And just repeating:"So just to reinterrate,I disagree with you justification for volience,and I disagree that Qigong practises alone create volient dispositions."
If you like I will go post some links suporting the benefits of Breathing and relaxation excerises:p

Re: setting oneself alight,this particular incident has varieity of reports,many conflicting.But I am not going to go into some sort of source debate.Plus I wasn't there so it would be rather pointless now wouldn't it?(are you getting where I am coming from)

Reality is you have within Sydney ability to talk to numerous FLDF practionners that will allow you to practise said Qigong with (or without)guidance and safety.Which I guess will just confirm your beleifs.You seem to think that I am some kind of Hard core supporter of LHZ,when really I am questioning your own attitudes and beleifs(primarily due to your attitude towards volience).But I'm glad you don't think I'm a bad guy:rolleyes: and just ignorant, uneducated and unable to acess the real facts. ;)

I admire your passion but not your righteousness.
Take it easy

[soggycat]

Think he wasn¡¦t saying Qigong causes insanity, but Falun style Qigong causes insanity in some people.
Actually I remember seeing a program on ABC last year , ( Foreign Correspondent ?) about Falun gong.
It was mentioned people cutting open their stomachs in search or the ¡§Elixir of Immortality Pill¡¨ promised by their leader.
Not saying I agree or disagree with the persecution, but just that there is a reason for this crackdown.
Whether one agrees/disagrees with the rationale is another matter.
Actually I have to agree with Mad_about_Bagua about Westerner¡¦s ignorance about China.
It is a real phenomena.
ļ
There seems to be a compulsive need to point out injustices in poorer, less modern countries in the hope of ¡§civilising¡¨ them.
Think in Sociology it¡¦s call ¡§ White Man¡¦s Burden¡¨- the need to save everyone ?
oK¡KI just added more fodder heh heh heh
:D

[Mad-about-Bagua]

Kat,
Actually I never thought of myself as RIGHTEOUS.
I didn't start off by condeming the Chinese govt's harsh treatment of Faluns like so many others . I stated that there was a reason why they did that....to protect the cult from spreading. Then I reminded others who condemn the Chinese Govt : Let he who has no sin cast the first stone.
So who was being Righteous ?

Next I pointed out what non Falun supporters say.
I'm not interested in being right or wrong. I'm just sharing this precautionary info with those who may not be aware. It's up to you to use that info anyway you like.

Just to clarify, I practise Qigong myself, I have nothing against it , but except some methods are more dangerous than others. There are several hundred styles of Qigong, some Buddhist other Taoist. There's quite a bit of literature about improper Qigong practice leading to mental sickness. Falun is just one of the more dangerous methods. Have a chat with you own Qigong masters about this . Ask him if he'd ever heard of cases where Qigong went wrong.

[Kat]

I think I am just repeating myself now,I have seen with my own eyes the volience used on FLDF,you try to justify this with your links,I disagree.I am happy to condeme the PRC for Human Rights abuse as I have lived there and seen the inequity and inequality but more so I am questioning your your justification for this volience.

I also disagree with your Beleifs about dangerous Qigongs.I am well aware of debates within TCM over incompatable Qi Gongs but I do not believe this have been proven beyond doubt.

There are other points but I would just be repeating myself,and you seem to avoid answering them.

Either you do not understand the gist of my posts or I am an extremely ineffective communicator over this medium.

[Mad-about-Bagua]

I 'm not doubting that the Chinese Govt is violent towards the Faluns.
Neither do I doubt you have seen it personally.
And don't forget this violence is dished out only when the Faluns protest in public in large groups. If they practised at home, the gov leaves them alone.
Do remember as of 1999 Falun movement is outlawed ( whether or not you agree with it's lagality is a separate matter)
Even Singapore arrested 12 Falun protesters for unlawful assembly ( check Internet yourself)

Nowhere did I say that this violence is justified, just that you need to understand why the Gov is being very harsh.…to contain a cult before it spreads. Has it occurred to you the Gov was trying to avoid a Waco Texas Cult massacre (1993); JimJones Cult Mass Suicide ( 1000 died) or Solar Temple Cult Suicide ( Switzerland 2001) ??
Didn't the Americans crush the Waco Cult with force?
Why I don't hear you mentioning any Human Rights abuses there?

Whilst you are happy to condemn ( look who's being self righteous now) PRC for Human Rights abuses, you seem to have left out continuing Human Rights abuses in Australia, most prominently the Aborigines and Refugees. Like I said before, we should clean up our own backyard first before condemning 3rd world countries about dealing with their scourges ( whether you agree if it is a scourge)

Or what about this business that Australia reserves the right to launch a Preemptive strike at any Asian country suspected of harbouring terrorist ?Such incredible arrogance and High Horse mentality. If an Asian country made that statement at Australia , wouldn't Aussies would be freakin out screaming intimidation ?
The days of Colonial rule are over , and Human Rights abuses on BOTH SIDES need to be exposed.

[Mad-about-Bagua]

No, you did make your self clear , you are not a bad communicator. But you have been putting words into my mouth.At no time did I say you were " ignorant and uneducated". I only stated your views are based on " limited access to information". So far you have accused me of being a violent person prone to being self Righteous. And that's on top ofyour condemning another Gov. about a complicated issue.
Look who's being Self Righteous ?

You accuses me of not addressing points you brought up, but yourself dismiss ALL evidence I provided ( see urls) by questioning my sources. You accuse the Chinese Gov of unjustified force, yet you conveniently forget how Faluns have harmed others and themselves as a result of their extreme form of Qigong leading to derangement. You dismiss the overwhelming evidence of their killing, suiciding and sel immolation. You dismiss the arguments put forward by 2 other posters ( TKDWarrior and Stickgrappler) who provided info about Falun Qigong induced insanity.You ignot\re the fact that the Chinese Gov is trying to curb the Falun out of a concern it might harm the greater public. Faluns are approx 70-100million now ie. 7% of population ?

Having said all that, I do realise that you are a decent guy who cares about other people's suffering. But it is wise to be circumspect too.
:-)

[Kat]

Originally posted by Mad-about-Bagua
And don't forget this violence is dished out only when the Faluns protest in public in large groups. If they practised at home, the gov leaves them alone.
I'm not forgeting:rolleyes: because this is a Blatantly Incorrect Assumption.

Nowhere did I say that this violence is justified,
You are justifiying the volience by supporting the PRC beleifs that FLDF commit volient crime induced by their own Qigong.A beleif I refrute.Like saying Bad people deserve to die because they are bad.This attitude is what promoted my original post.Perhaps this is where I am not making myself clear.

Why, I don't hear you mentioning any Human Rights abuses there?
Ahhh Because its not the topic under discussion??? :confused:

Whilst you are happy to condemn ( look who's being self righteous now) PRC for Human Rights abuses, you seem to have left out continuing Human Rights abuses in Australia, most prominently the Aborigines and Refugees.
Yeah OK If you want to talk about HR in Australia, great,We could discuss HR abuses in a lot of countries but we are discussing the PRC,particularly in relation to FLDF organisation.Whether we discuss Australia,Brazil(which would be a little off topic) or PRC it doesn't alter the facts of the abuse's sactioned by the PRC.Unlike assumptions that FLQG makes you go postal.

Repeating myself, must continue...........can't rationally understand why??:D
You can acess FL groups in Sydney and check it out for yourself rather then demonise them,(you might find they are just like you,and some are normal:D )When researching often its better to find information that is contra your veiw and discredit it rather then finding information that surports your veiw.Trully I'm done.Needless to say I disagree with your base principles and ethics towards the use of volience.
Man, how you get along with William I don't Know,I'm guessing you don't speak Canto or Mandarin.Please don't tell me your an academic and know Kingsely Fong.

[Andy Murray]

Just edited because your quotes were all messed up Kat.

[Kat]

Sorry I hadn't seen your second post so here's my responseOriginally posted by Mad-about-Bagua
overwhelming evidence

Having said all that, I do realise that you are a decent guy who cares about other people's suffering. But it is wise to be circumspect too.
:-)
Clearly we have different ideas about what constitutes overwhleming evidence.And I don't think its possible to get more self righteous then this last statment.Inference through relaization that I may(be not quite) be an equal of youself LOL:D
Bro have the last post,I am done as done

Andy, Thanks, I hope this hasn't been to off the top,I told you how hard core IMA people are:rolleyes: at talking:D

[Mad-about-Bagua]

No bad people don't deserve to die, they need to be stopped.
Sometimes violence is necessary if words are not enough to persuade them to mend their ways.
Faluns continue to defy police orders not to hold public demonstrations.
Faluns tell people not to seek medical attention, and then people die of sickness.
They are beaten only because they continue to defy the law.
Christians , Muslims, Taoist and Buddhist are not tortured the same way because they obey the law.
When in Rome..... huh ?
Don't forget, it's not just China but Singapore that cracked down on Falun demonstrations ( Falun is not oulawed in Singapore...only unlawful assembly)
Talking about Human Rights abuses in Australia is definitely NOTOFF TOPIC. I used it illustrate the point that what might be termed "HR abuse" might actually be a case of a ruling Gov's desperation to handle complicated social issues. Illegal refugees in Australia scream Human Rights abuse in Villawood. But others believe they brought it on themselves. Nobody stuck a gun to their heads to force them into Villawood. They boarded a plane from Iraq/Iran/Albania landed in Malaysia , flew to Jarkarta them hopped on a rickety boat to Australia. They stopped being refugees when they flew from Malaysia . From then on any country they go to , they are TOURISTS because they chose to leave the first place of refuge available to them ie. Malayisa. Why am I telling you this ? Because I'm trying to illustrate how a situation which maybe be perceived as CRUEL , is far more complicated, and until you understand deeper, you may not understand what appears as cruelty may actually a desperate Govt attempt at curbing damage.




No I don’t speak Mandarin or Canto. Nor am I an academic.
As for Kingsley do you mean this Tai Chi / Bagua teacher ?:
Dr. Kingsley Fong
University of New South Wales
Anzac Parade Kensington
Sydney australia
CONTACT : no personal emails
http://www.geocities.com/wuzhongxiu/

[Mad-about-Bagua]

Originally posted by Kat
Inference through relaization that I may(be not quite) be an equal of youself LOL:D
Bro have the last post,I am done as done


Off course you are not equal to me.
You life experiences and mine are not the same.
You are a save-the-world bleeding heart, I'm a hardened, realist.

But that's not to say you don't deserve the same human rights as I.

If you and I were attacked by a knife weilding mugger in the street, you'd primarily be worried about mistreating him.

I'd primarily be worried about making sure he doesn't hurt me or any other less capable victim again.

[Kat]

Originally posted by Mad-about-Bagua

Sometimes violence is necessary if words are not enough to persuade them to mend their ways. Because I'm trying to illustrate how a situation which maybe be perceived as CRUEL , is far more complicated, and until you understand deeper, you may not understand what appears as cruelty may actually a desperate Govt attempt at curbing damage.

Mend their ways???:confused:
Right, so In your opinion deeper understanding justifies........and I disagree with this attitude(this justification of volience ahhhh:eek: ),and hope you are never on the receiving end for any of the belief's you hold.
Yep thats KF,you should have a chat with him,you hold many simular veiws.

[Mad-about-Bagua]

Ah Yes, Kingsley...another enlightened realist .
Hey Kat, we may disagree, but I dont hate you.
:-)

[Andy Murray]

Do you guys know each other?

Otherwise, I can't understand the generalities getting flung around!

[Mad-about-Bagua]

What generalities ?
Please be specific about these generalities .
:-)

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Mad-about-Bagua
What generalities ?
Please be specific about these generalities .
:-)

LOL. :D Why don't you and Kat become more specific?

[Mad-about-Bagua]

Heh heh, I like Kat…quite fun to rattle his cage once in a while .
I’m eviiiiiiil !

[Kat]

Why are they always from Australia?:confused: :confused: :confused:

[nzric]

Wow, the conversations you miss out on when you've been out of the loop a couple of days. Soggycat, they thought you and I were funny but I think this beats our conversation!

For anyone else reading the thread - yep, it's always the ones from Sydney, I think it's in the water.

Put it this way. It's fair enough to practice what you want but nothing justifies the use of violence. I don't believe mad-about-bagua's statements that the Chinese government acts predominantly out of benign concern for the health of the people. Falun Gong is a popular movement with a figurehead who is not responsible to any political party, and the practice promotes independent thinking and questioning of authority - not the thing to promote in a socialist state balancing on a knife-edge of democracy. Hey - there's a reason the Falun Gong people sit down and start practicing in Tiananmen Square, and it's not to meditate. I'm not justifying the beatings and inprisonment but the people are arrested for open criticism of the socialist government - THE MEANS AND JUSTIFICATION OF THE PROTEST, AND THE ARREST ARE ARBITRARY (sorry to yell).

And there are nutters everywhere people. Every movement has their bad seeds who will be crazy whether or not they meditate. Some people are just wired like that.

[Kat]

Nooooo your'll start him up again:D
True, this blows SC and even Taigips posts out of the water.Water filters from now on;)

[Mad-about-Bagua]

For your info, I live on bottled water .
:-)

I think the simplest way I can put it is that I wasn’t justifying violence.
I was trying to explain why there’s violence.
Whether you agree with the reasons and logic for that violence is a separate matter and is always debatable.
Cause and Effect.
Remove the cause ( demonstrations) and the effect(violence) dissapears.
The power of choice is in a Falun's hands.
How’s that for Zen detachment ?

Even in Australia, all demonstrations or public protest have to be approved by the police.
If not, it is an unlawful assembly and you can expect to be CLUBBED on the head by Riot Police because the law was broken.
Whether you agree with the legality is a separate matter.
Whether it is right or wrong is a separate matter.
There's no fairness in life, only reality.

Falun was outlawed in 1999.
Technically that means if they demonstrate or promote it publicly , they are in breach of the law, and subject to swift retribution.
Ask your parents how the Communist party was treated in Australia or USA in the 1950’s .
McCarthism comes to mind.
Is it any different ?

It is a countrie's sovereign right to keep law and order the
way it sees fit.
Whether you or I agree with it’s methods is immaterial.
They don’t tell you how to run your country, so why should you tell them how to run theirs?

Personally, as sad as it is to see old people get clubbed, one must remember that Falun followers were given a choice.
Demonstrate and you will be beaten.
Promote it and you will be beaten.
Stay at home and meditate on your own ,
and you will be left alone.

I don’t call that persecution when a choice is available.
It’s not like the Spanish Inquisition eh, no one is asked to recant.
Just don’t demonstrate or promote it.
:D

[Mad-about-Bagua]

Originally posted by nzric
........ It's fair enough to practice what you want but nothing justifies the use of violence. I

If someone brandishes a knife in a threating manner at me , and I tell him to put it down but he doesn't....don't I have good reason to use the " Monkey steals the peach move" on him ?
( ie. rip out his tescticles )

If someone puts a no escape choke hold on me.....don't I have good reason to stick my fingers in his eyes if saying please stop doesn't help?

If a govt is faced with a cult encouraging people not to seek Western medical attention when they are ill, to cut open their bellies in search of the Falun Immortality Elixir Wheel/Pill, to set themselves on fire, going postal........don't they have a good reason to resort to harsh measures when soft talk has already failed ?

Kat , I agree that the persecution is not entirely out of concern for their health, a lot has to do with crushing political dissent too. Like Tiananmen.
But then if Falun have political views they they should be open about it and not hide behind the facade of an innoncent movement promoting "Meditation, Health , Peace and Forebearance "

BTW, I think Tiananmen was very cruel, excessive force.
But Falun people don't seem to learn from history.
:(

[nzric]

"They don’t tell you how to run your country, so why should you tell them how to run theirs?"

Human rights folks. I'd expect anyone to stand up to a violation of human rights, anywhere in the world. I've been overseas myself and seen the effects of state madness, and I know a lot of people who devote their lives to promoting human freedom. We live in a comfortable, suburban, western environment - we don't know anything about struggle compared to many people in the world. We have a duty to step up for the people who can't (batman).


"But then if Falun have political views they they should be open about it and not hide behind the facade of an innoncent movement promoting "Meditation, Health , Peace and Forebearance ""

Excellent, excellent point. Qigong is for health and wellbeing. It should not be a political tool and no matter how good it makes you feel, it isn't worth destroying yourself or your family for (whether or not it's via a repressive police system or if you do it yourself).

[Mad-about-Bagua]

nzric,
Wow I cant believe it..we finally have a meeting of minds on at least one point.
:-)

I admire what Batman , helping those who cant help themselves. ....really no sarcasm here at all.

But there are limits too. Some Westerners " help" in the most un-useful ways. Pardon me if I dont feel sorry when I see a Western man get bashed up by the Chinese police when he joins the Falun in their illegal demonstrations. He is an outsider, no one forced him to participate, he had a choice...and so he has to live with the consequences of his actions Maybe he should stick to building schools and hospitals and sponsoring orphans in impoverished countries.

About Human Rights, I dont know if you will agree with me, but it is not an absolute. Eg. Westerners think the way women are treated in some ultra conservative Islamic nations is a gross violation of HR Eg. female circumcision, polygamy, no voting or driving rights etc. But some of these countries think Autralia's relatively lax laws about firearms and drug abuse is a gross violation of Human Rights . Eg. innocent people getting shot, teeange overdose death.... it's all relative isn't it?

Westerners think eating dogs in Korea and parts of China is absolutely vile. But a cow is Holy to a Hindu, and so they think Western beef consumption is disgusting.

IMHO helping others especially in other countries is a noble thing but beyond a certain boundary it can be misunderstood as condesencion or interference.

Still, I think you might look fetching in you Batman tights :-)
Or is that not debatable? :D

[nzric]

Any state will take it as interference if you disagree publicly with their policies, and whatever country you are in, if you're too vocal you will get hounded down and arrested.

I agree some people are "asking for it" but that's the point - to demonstrate the futility of government policy through calculated non-violence (exit batman, cue gandhi). I don't care who the government is and if you're 'interfering' or not - human rights is human rights (yeah, and ALL countries violate human rights in some way) and I'll tip my hat to anyone who has the b...ls to make a stand.

I'm just saying from my point of view, Falun Gong has been blown out of proportion because it is now political. Yes it may be very effective but I don't see any reason why it should replace a good qigong routine. But I don't believe for a moment the blown-up claims that are forwarded by the state media. That is too much like the claims that rock&roll makes you mad, that weed makes you jump off buildings, that socialism makes you, well, a commie, and that dungeons&dragons makes you an axe murderer.

Back to the topic - qigong is supposed to take time, it is gradual because it takes time for your body to grow and change to accept the new energy levels. There shouldn't be any fast-track/intensive process because that goes against the principles of the exercises. It should be separate from politics too - no breathing routine is worth dying for, there are a lot of other ways to make a political statement.

[iamno]

I told my master I had seen people practicing falun gong in the park in Liverpool and he hit the roof! VERY BAD! STAY AWAY! DONT DO IT! MANY DIE! I trust him conpletely so will definately go nowhere near it. according to rumour the modern creator used it as a type of brainwashing (?) tecnique and many did die but that might just be the chinese government trying to control it by spreading rumour. I believe bad things will happen

[Mad-about-Bagua]

iamno,
Good to hear form someone like you.
But a friendly warning, please be careful about trying to warn people about the dangers of Falun Gong.
There are many people here ( in MAP) whom seem to think that they know everything there’s to know about the Falun, and because they have only heard about how the Falun are being persecuted/prosecuted by the Chinese Government but not why their type of Qigong is dangerous, they will shoot you down and try to make it sound like you are the “mad” one with the extreme views.

Reminds you of the biblical saying “ Don’t cast pearls before swine, lest they turn and trample on you”

[Mad-about-Bagua]

In the 15 Century 99% of the people thought the world was flat.
If you tried to say otherwise, you’ll be deemed the extreme one and have your credibility , sanity and intellect questioned.
History and human nature doesn’t change much eh?
Human nature prefers the familiar to the unknown.

[iamno]

Polite warning taken mate. :) Just passing views by trusted friends in response to questions

[Mad-about-Bagua]

Insanity : Falun Gong Mother Chokes Daughter to Death

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200205/13/eng20020513_95542.shtml

[sen]

There be Dragons

Just Widening the viewpoint here.

"Apparently" ,systems whose principal aim is to raise yourself into a "higher state of conciousness" (pardon the use of this worn out phrase)have always been portrayed as fraught with danger as the student progresses.

This is one of the main reasons (so they say) that certain practices are best performed under supervision wth proper guidance.

Im no Falun expert but i read somewhere that it was originally taught one to one,master to student fashion...hush hush stylee.

I have also heard it`s pretty effective in doing whatever it`s supposed to do.

I tend to agree with MAB in so far as,if it works, it probably is getting people to choppy mental waters quickly.Providing you believe in

Have been to China and seen the Demonstrations and attrocities documented. - Considered wearing a FalunGong T-Shirt with "Free Tibet" on the back so i could miss my flight and stay longer...You just need to put the T-Shirt on when you want to leave ;-)


:D

Also read somewhere that the ROC only started banging heads when they discovered there were more Falun members than communist party members.When i am feeling cynical i like to believe this as well.

I could see how both arguments complement each other...but then again i also have my suspicions about the Chinese having a moon base on the Dark side of the Moon.



:Alien:

[surgingshark]

women who look like they're doing weird qigong cheerleading

Why is it that whenever I randomly visit threads like these, I am always left with images this graphic?

[nzric]

You obviously have never heard of the tape "Nude tai chi" (check out the reviews in Amazon). Cheerleading qigong ladies are the least of your worries!

[TkdWarrior]

ah...
anyways i'll put my experience with yoga n falun gong... n i'll talk about insanity as i earlier said...

kundalini yoga n falun gong talks about ppl becoming insane when they practice... well it's partial true...
i hav been practicing both for quite some time...n seriously i havn't gone insane yet...

to some folks they both r fast chi generating techniques... but they forget about cleaning their mind with preconcived notions...
as in falun gong author talks about good xin-yin which is qiute similar to being pure from heart... the author talks about opening up the knowledge vessel(a sort of third eye), the author talks about magic n else... and he also talks about cleaning or preparing urself for falun gong... but the funny thing is ppl only remember magic n wat not... n seriously its more than hokey pokey crap...
they even forget wat the author is giving to u... even author himself talks about insanity...

same goes for kundalini yoga. when ur concious goes higher you cannot differentiate there is no good n bad, u cannot act bad because of the nature of higher energies...
ppl think of u as insane as ur point of view hav changed, the way things u see is changed, it more of holistic in nature...

if u don't believe me u should read some books by jose silva on his methods of alpha mind... where u put ur mind in aplha n theta stages...even he emphasis that...
-TkdWarrior-

[TkdWarrior]

oh i forgot to put my experience with both...
anyways
1st thing is i havn't gone insane... and moreover i have been doing meditation n yoga from last 10 yrs so i think i could handle both quite well...
and i only did when i wanted to... just like feeling coming from inside. i stick with them for week n forget about it... then came back to them in yr or so...
like when i first hav book on falun i couldn't make up with wat he was saying... n yr later i could see things differently
u always hav ur rationale mind to fall back on to... so don't worry...

i didn't dynamic meditation n yoga for kundalini ... not the usual exercises...
-TkdWarrior-

[sen]

Well put Tkd

[CKava]

Catholic Priest concocts anti-evil potion kills 62...
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/html/5288-.html
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_844239.html

Catholic Priest dresses up boy like Jesus...(Possibly offensive please dont click if you dont want to read)
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/html/5315-Priest_accused_of_molesting_boy_after_dressing_him _up_like_Jesus.html

I found these after a 1 minute search on google. The point of this is that following the reasoning some people are using in refering to Falun Gong then these links seem to indicate that it is the Catholic Churches fault that a priest decides to invent an anti-evil pill (which subsequently kills his parish) and so on... Which to me anyway is a bit of a ludicrous jump in logic. The man died of a heart attack and practiced Falun Gong therefore Falun Gong must cause heart attacks, a boy survived his house being burned down and practiced Falun Gong therefore Falun Gong must cause people to be able to escape from fires, see any problem here?

By the way Im not trying to add further fuel to the fire (no pun intended) Im just trying to point out that every religion or social movement or relaxation therapy or whatever has its share of odd people. Looking at the sensational stories in the news (or worse on the internet) really tells you nothing...


...to contain a cult before it spreads. Has it occurred to you the Gov was trying to avoid a Waco Texas Cult massacre (1993); JimJones Cult Mass Suicide ( 1000 died) or Solar Temple Cult Suicide ( Switzerland 2001) ??
Hmmm... So Falun Gong is a cult what similarities does it share with any of the above examples? Oh and plenty of Buddhists set themselves on fire in Vietnam in political protests so is Vietnamese Buddhism also a cult? I mean apparently its members sacrifice themselves and Im sure if you look you'll probably find incidents where Vietnamese Buddhists have killed people and other suuch odd things...

(Disclaimer: Not trying to offend anyone with the links by the by.)

[nzric]

Thank you CKava, finally a voice of reason.

BTW - Soccer is evil too because people fight each other when they watch soccer matches. And I heard one guy who robbed a grocery store actually said once that he thought David Beckham was a good guy.