Training Intensity

[FortuneFaded]

Hey i just wanted to know what the training intensity of Kickboxing is compared to judo.

I've started judo and i find the training to be quite vigrous, as other than that i dont do anything else that demanding on my body (maybe snowboarding but not on a regular basis) i'm intrested in kickboxing but i'm worried (especially after seeing some fights on tv) about the training, i.e even the warm ups, i think it might be a tad intense for me.

[Jax]

If your new to it you wont be expected to do the same amount as most of the regular members.

When i first started i could barly do 20 pressups but now as a warmup before my training i normally do 50 regular, 25 with hands close together 25 with hands far apart then some on 1 arm if im feeling energetic this followed by a sh*t load of situps and v-situps and squat thrusts and whatever else he feels like putting us through, medicine ball whilst doing situps he likes atm...makes you close your eyes aswell so you can't see it coming - painfull but good for teaching you to keep your abs tense.

after this you will do your training, probly run through some basic combinations do some pad work but as i say you will start off pretty easy and it shouldn't be too hard for the first couple of month.

As you get into it the training will get very intense, we had plastic bags on under our tops with all the windows closed last week...i've never sweat so much or been as hot in my life think i lost about 3lb in water :P

The harder it is the more i enjoy it, nothing beats the feeling after a really good workout. My advice would be just to give it a try and if you find you don't like it just don't go again, you won't know unless you try :)

[FortuneFaded]

sounds rather good, i'm up for something like that i think it would be a great way to get in a better condition whilst learning kickboxing. Well as of the moment i can't (without ease) get to training sessions that are held in inverness, but i'm moving house in about 5 months and it will be more accessible to get to the training and i was thinking, 5 months of the judo will prolly get me in a 'better' shape (compared to my current) and i'll be ready for it.

Thanks for the information aswell

[aml01_ph]

Hey i just wanted to know what the training intensity of Kickboxing is compared to judo.


Depends on the instructor. Some judo gyms have aharder curriculum than others. That also goes for kickboxing. Being a beginner, most of the workouts should be tiring for you anyway.

[Shaolin Dragon]

Generally speaking, in my experience kickboxing classes tend to be at a higher intensity than most TMA classes. In a kickboxing class the instructor will keep you moving for the whole session, whereas in TMA you may spend more time in between techniques resting.

[FortuneFaded]

what does 'TMA' mean exactly?

[aml01_ph]

what does 'TMA' mean exactly?

TMA = Traditional Martial Arts.

...kickboxing classes tend to be at a higher intensity than most TMA classes...in TMA you spend more time in between techniques resting.

Sounds like someone who has only experienced the easy life at McDojos! As for judo, anybody who has experienced at least minutes on matwork will surely understand the physical demands of this sport.

[FortuneFaded]

Mcdojos?

Ok, you MUST let me off the hook for my rather plain stupidity as i am the Newbie :D, anyway what do you mean *squints eyes* by McDojo?

[Adam]

McDojo = Bad dojo that teaches you iworthless skills, charges you too much to teach you those skills and doesn't train hard enough.

By the way, a generalization that kickboxers train harder than TMA people is stupid. I went to a KB class for a while, the workouts, discipline and overall mentality of karate was a lot harder than in kickboxing, which allowed for water breaks and occasional breathers between training. Grouping all TMA together is a stupid mistake many people seem to make.

[FortuneFaded]

Hah!

I resent my dojo being called a MCdojo and i'm rather pissed off at that. See, i live in the highlands and my dojo is located in a place with a population under 150 with under 10 members going to the judo (factor in the scary amount of neds and you can understand the lack of members).

For someone to take their time and not overcharging but undercharging, to teach us 'invaluable' skills, i thank them and want to scowl eviliy at the bad mouther.

It gives me something to do, i enjoy myself and hell the things i'm taught are better than nothing, it gets me out the house, gives me more confidence, meet new people, make friends, exercise. Heck, this is after one lesson.

*grumbles*

Mcdojo...

[Shaolin Dragon]

FortuneFaded, they weren't saying you trained at a Mcdojo (something that people seem too eager to call out these days), they were saying it about me, because of a generalisation I made which I stated was from MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Also, I didn't say that kickboxing was harder training, I said that it was at a higher intensity.

I have been to two different kickboxing clubs, in which from the beginning of the lesson untill the end students are kept moving non-stop. You warm up, you do bagwork, and you spar.
I currently train in three TMAs, and have also had experience of three others which I am not currently training in. But the nature of TMA is that you have to devote more time into learning techniques, patterns and forms which you do by WATCHING them being performed, and performing them slowly so that you can do them properly. In no way did I imply that this was easier, I stated that it is of a lower physical intensity and I will stand by that comment, so long as it is clear that it is a generalisation and there are always exceptions to the rule.

[aml01_ph]

That's right Shaolin Dragon. Here's a typical day at the judo club I entered:

The first fifteen minutes comprise the warm up which consists of skips, a 2-minute run about the dojo, rolling drills and falling drills. After a 1 minute rest, its time for skill learning (throws, matwork). After that, it's randori time! The time for randori depends upon our skill and fitness level. If you are a beginner, you will be required to stay for the required time (20 to 30 minutes depending on the instructor). If you are up to it, you can stay longer. All in all, the class lasts for about 2 hours, with the maximum rest period of 15 minutes.

My karate class goes just aout the same, althought the drills are different and there are specific days for freestyle sparring.

Shaolin Dragon, I feel you missed out.

[Shaolin Dragon]

My experience of grappling arts is that one tries to get the greatest efficiency from the minimum effort; you use the opponent's strength against him, you do not oppose it with your own.

You mention skill learning. To me this implies that your instuctor demonstrates something (at which point you are watching, hence not working at a high intensity) and then you try this out with a partner (at which point you ease into the technique, performing it slowly to make sure you are doing it correctly before trying it quickly, hence you are not working at a high intensity). If you are not doing things this way then chances are you are not learning how to do the techniques properly.

Believe me, I do not feel I am missing out, otherwise I would take up kickboxing as my main art.

[Shaolin Dragon]

"Judo Randori
In modern Judo training, randori often means stand up throwing practice with both partners trying to throw each other. It is limited to Judo rules: no strikes, joint locks other than the elbow, nerve techniques and only certain throwing techniques. Ideally it should be a training and learning exercise, but often escalates into shiai or competition when both people are "going for blood". This takes the play and the learning element out of the exercise and prevents students from trying new techniques which have a high probability of failure.
Ji Randori
Clear understanding of the principle is necessary for proper training and allows partners of widely varying skill levels, size, and rank to work and learn together. The principle of "minimum strength, maximum efficiency" needs be applied here. The person of greater skill, strength or rank needs to turn down the juice to almost equal that of their partner and switch their focus from getting the throw to how effortless and perfect the throw was for proper randori training to occur in both people. For example, the black belt working with a blue belt needs to go from a 10 in intensity to a 2.5 when the blue belt is working at 2.0. This encourages the blue belt to work up at a higher level and experience being thrown by excellent technique and trains the black belt by working on the finer details of Jujitsu by using timing, openings and kuzushi to achieve a throw rather than speed, strength, and trickery. In this type of exercise, both people should be throwing and being thrown and both working on difficult though different material. The black belt is refining his technique and working on small and subtle details while the blue belt is struggling to figure where to put his feet. Both learn and help train each other.
Mohojiai and randori are the research and development (R&D) phases of jujitsu training. In R&D, one makes lots of mistakes and has many failure before learning and knowing what the ideal solution is to a particular problem. Often, the flash of insight into a simple and elegant solution comes only after much toil and sweat. Jujitsu no different. Use randori to make mistakes, learn and find the elegant solutions. "

http://www.ajjf.org/article05.html

[aml01_ph]

My experience of grappling arts is that one tries to get the greatest efficiency from the minimum effort; you use the opponent's strength against him, you do not oppose it with your own.

Yes. But you also don't assist the other guy during the application of the technique. Otherwise, how is he (or she) gonna learn. Also, executing techniques with "greatest efficiency and minimum effort" for a long time is tiring.

You mention skill learning. To me this implies that your instuctor demonstrates something (at which point you are watching, hence not working at a high intensity) and then you try this out with a partner (at which point you ease into the technique, performing it slowly to make sure you are doing it correctly before trying it quickly, hence you are not working at a high intensity). If you are not doing things this way then chances are you are not learning how to do the techniques properly.

Why? Isn't this method done at some point in kickboxing?

In modern Judo training, randori often means stand up throwing practice with both partners trying to throw ach other. It is limited to Judo rules...

So what's so bad about that? Judo was concieved as a sport after all. I also feel that your context on the randori is limited. Yes it is stand up throwing parctice, but mat techniques are also practiced along with throwing techniques. I also disagree ith your point of randori turning into shiai. Randori IS Shiai, just as point and semi-contact tournaments in karate can be considered sparring. Also, at 100% intensity, the student learns to apply his techniques at the pressure that can be expected during competition.

The person of greater skill, strength and rank needs to turn down the juice to almost equal that of their partner and switch their focus from getting the throw to how effortless and perfect the throw was for proper randori training to occur...

Sounds more like ukemi than randori.

[redbull]

Generally speaking, in my experience kickboxing classes tend to be at a higher intensity than most TMA classes. In a kickboxing class the instructor will keep you moving for the whole session, whereas in TMA you may spend more time in between techniques resting.

Sounds to me like u have never done any serious judo. Coming from someone who is currently doing jud and has done kickboxing in the past, the intensity that u get from newaza or randory is unmatched when compared to kickboxing.

[FortuneFaded]

I'll step back in and talk about my dojo sessions:

There only an hour long :( which sucks alot cause i am really enthiusatic for it, our warmup lasts about 15 minutues and includes:

Running
Squats
Sit ups
Pressups
back,front,side,roll breakfalls

Then we spend about 5-10 mintues being asked questions (since we have to learn the names and definitions of judo terms and moves) after that we are shown clearly a new move or a few and then we practice them on each other, allowing everyone to be a Uke and a tori, so we learn how to excute the moves and then we get to do Randori.

In our sessions we have to think on our feet and out sensei will tell us whilst fighting what is and what is not allowed, so sometimes were doing grabs and what not and have to go into groundwork.

Pretty much in 1hour i've learned, Ogoshi, Kuricha-gari and kessa gatame.

and mat work is well... tiring but fun.

The only problem i've found in Randori is that everyone is squirming a fair bit and not allowing each other to do like throws. Generally what happens is that somone will try to do a Kuricha-gari and i'll step back, and they fall and i go into grond work (nazawara?). I guess were not all that great at 'flowing' a hip throw etc.

[FortuneFaded]

Yes. But you also don't assist the other guy during the application of the technique. Otherwise, how is he (or she) gonna learn. Also, executing techniques with "greatest efficiency and minimum effort" for a long time is tiring.



Why? Isn't this method done at some point in kickboxing?



So what's so bad about that? Judo was concieved as a sport after all. I also feel that your context on the randori is limited. Yes it is stand up throwing parctice, but mat techniques are also practiced along with throwing techniques. I also disagree ith your point of randori turning into shiai. Randori IS Shiai, just as point and semi-contact tournaments in karate can be considered sparring. Also, at 100% intensity, the student learns to apply his techniques at the pressure that can be expected during competition.



Sounds more like ukemi than randori.
Also, at 100% intensity, the student learns to apply his techniques at the pressure that can be expected during competition.

I agree with this to some extent, during my first lesson it was fairly easy to preform a Kuricha-gari, yet performing an Ogoshi was somewhat difficult, in practice i was able to do so but in a randori i wasn't. However after fighting i was given feedback from my opponent and people watching and in turn could see them move when the fought as well. Practising techniques to me in Randori is all about knowing how to do the move but learning how to excute it underpressure.

((do tell me to hush when i babble on...))

On a plus note, i might be able to up my Judo lessons to 3 times a week, gaining up to 5 hours a week. Huzzah!

[Shaolin Dragon]

OK, let me just clarify - I did not intend for my remarks to be taken as a slight against Judo or TMA as a whole. My comments were about TMA (not Judo specifically) and I was simply saying that it is in the nature of TMA to spend more time learning moves, techniques, and patterns. Kickboxing is more of a sport in nature and as such is more limited in its applications (and this in turn is not meant as a slight against kickboxing) so you generally spend less time learning new moves, there are no katas to learn, less emphasis on SD, and so you can devote more time to bagwork, drills and freesparring, which are more intense than learning something new.
This isn't possible for a TMA as there is always a new kata to learn, new techniques to perfect, which it isn't practical to do at a high intensity. That isn't to say that TMA won't get you fit, nor does it imply that it is easier than kickboxing.

But in no way do I mean to disrespect TMA!

[aml01_ph]

OK, let me just clarify - I did not intend for my remarks to be taken as a slight against Judo or TMA as a whole. My comments were about TMA (not Judo specifically) and I was simply saying that it is in the nature of TMA to spend more time learning moves, techniques, and patterns. Kickboxing is more of a sport in nature and as such is more limited in its applications (and this in turn is not meant as a slight against kickboxing) so you generally spend less time learning new moves, there are no katas to learn, less emphasis on SD, and so you can devote more time to bagwork, drills and freesparring, which are more intense than learning something new.
This isn't possible for a TMA as there is always a new kata to learn, new techniques to perfect, which it isn't practical to do at a high intensity. That isn't to say that TMA won't get you fit, nor does it imply that it is easier than kickboxing.

But in no way do I mean to disrespect TMA!

I don't think it is your intention to malign TMA, although it is my opinion (just mine though) that your experience maybe limited enough that you generalize TMA in this way. First, learning something new is intense in itself because of the fact you are learning something new. You will be faced with newer demands on your body because you are unused to the activity. This is true whether you are learning a new technique or learning a new kata.

Secondly, Muay Thai kickboxing is considered a traditional martial art. Does this classify in your views on TMA? Another example would be the majority of FMA's. Several styles of arnis have no kata. But practicing sinawali or redonda will have the arms aching within 2 minutes (for the unpracticed). Add that to the fact that the stylist has to swing the sticks as fast as possible.

This is the reason why I made that remark earlier about the McDojos. Also the remark about you missing out.

[Shaolin Dragon]

I think that this may simply be a difference in interpretation of the term "intensity." I consider, in the context of this thread, intensity to refer specifically to the demands placed on the cardiovascular system. In which case learning something new will not place great demands on the body, being more a matter of neuro-muscular pathways.

I also acknowledged that I was making a massive generalization, so obviously there are going to be exceptions.

As for missing out, there are far more efficient ways to get fit than doing MA. If getting fit was my primary concern, I would be doing one of them instead of MA (and more to the point, most martial artists supplement their training with aerobic/ weight training anyway).
Your remark implies that if a MA is low intensity, then it is not worth doing. Does this mean you think aikido and Tai Chi Chuan are worthless?

Perhaps we should just agree to disagree;)

[aml01_ph]

Aha so you have misinterpreted FortuneFaded's question on intensity. Since he is a beginner in both (Judo and Kickboxing), isn't it more correct to take his question on this context: the overall physical demands of training in Judo and Kicboxing?

And yes there are other ways of getting fit than MA (maybe better or otherwise), but our discussion is on the intensity of Kickboxing to other TMA's. It is also a bad assumption that I consider aikido and Tai Chi worthless (although there are senseis out there who make the practice of it worthless). It is also my position that the intensity of practice of a MA depends largely on the instructor. Besides where in my post did I imply that if an MA is of or on low intensity it is not worth practicing?

Agree to disagree? Have you run out of arguments?

Perhaps this is best for another thread. :cool:

[FortuneFaded]

Hey what i ment by Intensity was how much exercise and effort is involved, let me explain.

As i said i'm classed as Unfit and well my judo lessons are somewhat easy going, we only have an hour so we don't always get alot of mat time and there is always time to rest, i.e watching someone else on the mat, note i say mat, as we only have one set of mats to fight on so only two people can go at a time.

For kickboxing, i know its a big club i'd be going to and well i think i'd have to excert myself alot more to keep up (not a bad thing, just a hard thing), apart from that, sparring and practicing will take prolly alot out of me.

By intensity, i ment the amount of work i would have to do to keep up with my class, i.e Beginers. So in judo it isn't to bad at the moment, though mat work is tiring XD

[Shaolin Dragon]

aml01 ph - you suggested that I was going to a mcdojo because I commented that TMA was less intense than kickboxing. This implied to me that you think low intensity MA was not as worthwhile as high intensity MA.
Kickboxing is a sports based MA and as such generally places a higher emphasis on fitness than most TMA.
But I agree with you completely - it is the instructor that sets the intensity of the class.

Fortune Faded - sorry to get you caught up in the middle by offering an honest opinion but I will offer another one anyway - try out kickboxing as well as judo. At the end of the day, it IS down to the instructor, so you may get an easygoing guy who lets you do things at your own pace, or a maniac who works you harder than you've ever worked before. Either way, even if you cannot keep up to start with you will soon gain enough fitness to meet the demands placed on you. And apart from anything else it is good practice to know some striking as well as some grappling.

[aml01_ph]

Shaolin Dragon: The remark I made about the mcdojos was made because of your generalization of TMA's being of low intensity than kickboxing. Also, just because a martial art has become sport-based does not mean that TMA's based on self-defense are of low intensity. A good example of this would be traditional and sport taekwondo. They work at about the same intensities.

FortuneFaded: If you are considering a membership to the kickboxing club yo mentioned, I advise you to be ready. From what you mention in your workouts in Judo, I don't think you're ready for another MA. Try making oppurtunities for you to practice. Devote less time to watching and start doing.

[leo]

shaolin dragon, i was wondering are you american, its just that you say kickboxing is more of a sport and limited in moves. but that might just be america, in britain our training is very street worthy and although we do concentrate on simpler moves, because that is generally what you do i n street fight, we do do other harder moves and in my club we also use weapons. i have also noticed that in america you seem to train far less vigorusly than over here in britain, that is a bit of a generalisation i know, but there does appear to be a big difference between america and britain. id might be beacuse weapons cant be carried on the streets in britain so kickboxing and martial arts are more effective over here than in america.
also, earlier i cant remeber who it was, but they said they do 50 regular pressups for the warmup, that is just one set of regular pressups isnt it, not actually just 50 then do the next exercise.
also in america, in most clubs are you alowed to stop moveing during ur lesson?
this reply is purely on curiousity, if u find nething offensive please ignore it, i dont mean to bring down american martialartists or offend anyone. my views are generalised at the moment.