[Freestyle/Sporting MA] More Sport Vs "Street"

[YODA]

What is your reaction when you see certain arts referred to as "Just a sport" e.g.

Boxing
Wrestling
Muay Thai / Kickboxing
Judo

I'm talking primarily about full contact sports here i.e. you are expected to hit / throw / whatever is allowed as hard & fast as you can.

I feel that "Just a sport" this does a great disservice to these fine systems, and I value their combat effectiveness more than many of the more "Street" arts out there.

The value in these systems I feel is the fact that yes, in theory, the actual techniques used are often "less lethal" on paper (then again have you ever been chest to chest suplexed on tarmac?) but what they DO use they develop by live sparring with a person who is actually fighting back. The value increases tenfold when you start to mix up disciplines and try to apply your boxing skills against a wrestler or try to clinch & takedown a good Muay Thai fighter.

What about modification of these "sport" techniques. Let's look at a finger jab to the eyes vs. a straight lead jab. Do you feel it is it possible to gain a high level of practical skill in spearing someone in the eye without first having the footwork, timing, sense of distance etc to land a solid jab to the nose in an alive i.e. "Sporting" environment? I know you can wear eye protection and spar "alive" using the eye jab. but how many do? If you cannot hit me with a 16oz glove whilst I'm trying to punch your head off, what makes you think will be able to poke me in the eye when I can also hit you with a chair, there are 2 or 3 of us, or you are wearing winter clothing & there's snow on the ground?

How long do you think it would take to teach an "eye boink expert" who's never sparred to land his eye poke against an aggressive, athletic, pissed off aggressor? Turn it around and think how long it would take to give practical eye jabbing skills to a decent club level boxer who can land his jab with a good percentage of success against people trying to take his head off his shoulders? I've tried the later? It takes about 20 minutes. "Open your hand, you don't have a glove on. Right, now use your fingers to the eye instead of punching the nose? Right, let's put on the eye goggles & try that in the ring" That's about all it takes.

OK. I've lit the touch paper, Now I'm gonna sit here with my popcorn & fire extinguisher :D

[johndoch]

I think the fighting sports are one of the best ways to learn to fight. It may stylise your technique and influence how you react on the street and it may save your life. But it is not suited for everyone, some people I've sparred with just cant stop bullying weaker members of the club and I think this is not good especially for the confidence of the weaker fighters.
However I believe instinct can see you through I believe there are some people whom have never fought in their life but could possibly beat a well trained fighter in the street. My motto is "I can beat anybody, anybody can beat me".

Just a quick question. Are boxers paranoid about wrists injuries when on the street without gloves on?

[YODA]

Originally posted by johndoch
... But it is not suited for everyone, some people I've sparred with just cant stop bullying weaker members of the club and I think this is not good especially for the confidence of the weaker fighters.



Actually I've seen much more "bullying" in non sparing classes - Probably because the bully has an easy job inflicting his inflated ego on people without fear of getting whacked back.

[Andy Murray]

I guess the arts that get referred to as sports, are those that compete under fixed rule systems, therefore they are sports!

I've laid out my thoughts on this elswhere on forum, but I agree with Dave that you cannot dismiss the sporting combative systems just because they compete. The nature of competition being, that it keeps standards high.

In sport MA, the techniques have been modified to make them safe to compete with, but there are possibly fewer people now who understand how to transfer their ringcraft into more realistic arenas?

My 2 Banana's worth.

I like this err, 'exotic' question Dave;

"If you cannot hit me with a 16oz glove whilst I'm trying to punch your head off, what makes you think will be able to poke me in the eye when I can also hit you with a chair, there are 2 or 3 of us, or you are wearing winter clothing & there's snow on the ground?"

Personally, I'll find it easier to hit you without the weight of the Glove, and yes, this is something I have specifically trained. I 'know' I can hit you, because my version is a modified tournament technique, and I've trained it and tested it against heavy fire. 'Knowing' I can hit you is the important bit!

Could a highly trained yet un-tested eye boink exponent catch me with same???

Nope, not unless I was sleeping.

[wayofthedragon]

Originally posted by YODA
[B]What is your reaction when you see certain arts referred to as "Just a sport" e.g.

Boxing
Wrestling
Muay Thai / Kickboxing
Judo

I'm talking primarily about full contact sports here i.e. you are expected to hit / throw / whatever is allowed as hard & fast as you can.

I'll tell you how I feel. I think if people want to call make them a sport, they should go right ahead. I won't object. Heck, people make sport of just about everything these days. Not only the ones you listed up there, but also, with karate, taekwando, etc. However, it is much more than just a sport. It has much more to offer than just a sport. It is not just a sport, wasn't to begin with, and will never be just a sport.

I feel that "Just a sport" this does a great disservice to these fine systems, and I value their combat effectiveness more than many of the more "Street" arts out there.

I totally agree Yoda, "just a sport is " This is a disgrace to the martial arts. It is much more than a sport as we all know. I do hope these people recognize this:confused:

All in all, I don't have a problem with people making anything into a sport, however, when they refer to a certain style as just a sport, then I may be offended because it can't be just a sport unless it was created in the begining to be such, and none of these were originally ment to be just sports. They are so much more.

[STASH]

I just let them talk, actions speak louder then words and sooner or later you'll get your chance to prove to those people that Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Judo, Wrestling etc. are more then just sports. :)

[Terry Matthes]

I agree with YODA. I mean a lot of arts (without getting into names) are really fancy and have things like wrist locks, eye gouges, cavity strikes, and clavicle pulls, but how easy do you think it would be to land any of those on an opponent (especially when your a begginer). I think arts that deal in a lot of complex precise movements like this act better as a compliment to other fighting systems which also cover more basic techniques. Pretty the same idea that YODA gave with eye gouges and boxing.

[Dragon_Princess]

*agrees with STASH

make a long story short, as he said, they'll see sooner or later.

[YODA]

Thanks for the input MAPers.

I don't get at all cross when people refer to these thibngs as sports. They ARE sports - and that is a strong point not a weakness. "Sport" means they are contested, trained against non-complience - actually performed rather than just trained - There is a world of difference.

[Bon]

My reaction ? I think to myself how they'd feel if I hit them as hard as I could bare knuckled, or took them down to the ground and pounded the **** out of them. :D:D

I agree with the point made about the eye jab. It's very easy for someone to say 'I'll just jab them in the eye' when they have no training, but it's highly unlikely they'll pull it off if they can't punch someone.

For someone who knows how to use their fists, I think they could pull of an eye jab without practicing it. Just change your fist, the hard part is really in extending your fist and not telegraphing the strike.

[Darzeka]

For the eye jab part I wouldn't actually use it in a fight until we were grappling and only if it was my only way out (people are rather sensitive about loosing their eye sight).

I think that the full contact nature of combat sports is good and inmproves people as fighters but the rules have made for some very silly practises.
Take boxing - no hitting to the back or back of the head. This allows people to come in hunched over, exposing most of thier body. No kicking, elbows and knees again makes for bad habits towards not protecting from these areas.

Boxing I feel is the worst for rules that breed bad habits but all the sports will get some of this becuase they do have those rules.

The ring is just too small I think. A mat the size of the UFC Octagon provides enough room to move around properly.

Also I think the gloves would be a hindrance in a fight rather than a plus. The fingerless UFC gloves would provide enough protection from injury as they need.

I think that sports, all sports are a good way to take yourself beyond your limits but most people take them far too seriously.

[YODA]

Boxing I feel is the worst for rules that breed bad habits but all the sports will get some of this becuase they do have those rules.

A boxer is probably one of the worst people to fight for real too - strange that. Just goes to show the importance of training methods over technique.

[pgm316]

Sport can be a great advantage. We can all do it, doesn't matter in the slightest what our martial art is. All it means is we've applied a set of rules to our sparring. Apply one set of rules and your wrestling another set and your boxing. What it means for us MA's is we can spar/fight hard knowing the rules will limit risk of injury. Its better to perfect the use of a jab against a resisting opponent than to learn the theory of an eye jab. The technique on paper may be less effective, but what we learn is timing, speed and how to apply it effectively against an attacking person. Something many MA's never do with their "lethal techniques".

As Yoda said, in theory the rules boxers train with would in theory make them the worst fighters. But it doesn't, far from it! Because they train so hard at what they do it makes them very lethal punchers and also hard to hit. And if a boxer is in a street fight, don’t expect them to fight in their “sport” way, they’ll break every rule that boxing has!

Ok, they won’t be good grapplers if they don’t grapple, but this might not matter if they get a knockout punch in within the first few seconds. They might not grapple but they will fight dirty, I believe its far easier to take a boxers jab and teach the eye jab, than the other way round. Because they have learnt the most important thing from their “sport” training, which is learning to fight an attacking opponent.

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by YODA


A boxer is probably one of the worst people to fight for real too - strange that. Just goes to show the importance of training methods over technique.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for boxing, but I do think it has some dangerous limitations. The first that comes to mind is the bad habits that develop due to punching with big padded gloves on. Boxing gloves are very forgiving if you don't get the angle of your wrist at impact correct. Wrists and hands damage fairly easily. A good example is Mike Tyson, I believe he broke his hand punching someone without gloves on. For this reason I avoid wearing any padding/protection on my hands when doing bagwork.

But that said, I think boxing has still got a lot going for it.

Mike

[pgm316]

I've known a lot of martial artists to break their knuckles. Many people don't realise how easy it is to do; as their pounding away on bags concentrating on power.

But, its dangerous for both parties, the boxer breaking there hand and the person whose face has broke it! ;)

[johndoch]

Quote:

"Boxing gloves are very forgiving if you don't get the angle of your wrist at impact correct."

Spot on,

I find for that reason i can punch harder with gloves on

[TkdWarrior]

sport has it's place...sport sparring can only help u with learning the distance, timing part of ur style..it will help u with trying out new techniques...
in street u can't do any of above...
-TkdWarrior-

[pgm316]

Why don't you do that in the street TKD??? I thought you'd do everything you do in the sport sparring, but add the street techniques such as eye jab on to it. Aren't distance and timing important in the street?

I agree with you about the gloves Doc. they can be a bad thing to train with, giving you too much confidence that you can put punches in at all angles and your knucles & wrist will take it :(

[TkdWarrior]

read again pgm i said
<sport sparring can only help u with learning the distance>
u don't hav time to learn anything in street u just hav to do it...
u don't hav time to practice timing in street it should come natural

"Boxing gloves are very forgiving if you don't get the angle of your wrist at impact correct."
yup it's good reason for me not to use gloves n our gloves r way lighter than boxing gloves
-TkdWarrior-

[johndoch]

I would nt say dont use gloves when training on the heavy bag.

I train a lot with the heavy bag and one of my exercises is

After 3min shadow boxing

followed by

3x mins - no gloves
30 secs break
3 x mins - light bag mitts
30 secs break
3 x mins - 16oz gloves
30 secs break
3 x mins - light bag mitts
30 sec break
3x mins - no gloves

or alternatively start with 16oz gloves to no gloves back to 16oz gloves.

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by pgm316
I've known a lot of martial artists to break their knuckles. Many people don't realise how easy it is to do; as their pounding away on bags concentrating on power.

But, its dangerous for both parties, the boxer breaking there hand and the person whose face has broke it! ;)

Agreed. As a result, I'm wary of punching to the face, unless I have the luxury of carefully selecting a specific target. I don't like just sticking my fist straight out without knowing exactly what its going to hit. If I have to do that, I prefer to use a palm-heel.

Mike

[khafra]

Anybody else ever notice how hard it is to disagree with Yoda? Anyway, a qualified yes, same as everyone else:
It's easy to say "a boxer would disregard his rules in the street," but I think they'd get ingrained the same way light/no contact would for a "deadly art" person. I don't have any statistics to back this up, unfortunately, but I do have an unfortunately unreferenced anecdote about good boxer who ran across a wannabe street punk who could literally barely get his knife open, and still got killed because he tried to stay with marquis of queensbury rules.

[Darzeka]

I know that there will be madmen boxers who would use thier training to enhance the dirty street fighting but I'm looking more at the more medicore boxers who will not be able to break thier programming when faced with a fight. They may start well but if it lasted any length of time they would instinctively "box" or try to force themselves not to do, reducing the flow of thier fight.

I still wouldn't teach a boxer to change his jab into an eye gouge. Wrong situation. You would more than likely break a finger or two on his face. You use the eye gouge if they have a hold of you, are sitting on your chest, or somewhere they aren't able to move much or aren't expecting you to be able to hit hard, then you poke him in the eyes and then use this distrction to nail him.
Shihan John Ang's favourite example of this is a sumo wrestler. A sumo wrestler grabs you around the throat. What can you do? arms like legs, legs like tree trunks, a body that is muscle and fat weighing about 190 KGs, a neck like a leg of ham and he's trying to choke you to death. Poke him in the eyes, everyone has eyes and getting them poked hurts, tearing them out will likely leave him in a wailing mess on the floor.

You don't try to eye jab someone who is bouncing around like Bruce Lee. There are much easier targets to hit.

As long as the MA thinks outside the ring about his/her art/sport then they will likely be effective but if they only apply what learn inside thier head to the ring then that will be almost detrimental.

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by johndoch

3x mins - no gloves
30 secs break
3 x mins - light bag mitts
30 secs break
3 x mins - 16oz gloves
30 secs break
3 x mins - light bag mitts
30 sec break
3x mins - no gloves


Hi John

You obviously think there's merit to both ways - gloves and no gloves. Presumably you think both have strengths/weaknesses?

Mike

[Cain]

Wat's the big deal about gloves???? :confused: I never wore a glove in my life when sparring....only bare-fisted, n never got injured....

|Cain|

[YODA]

I still wouldn't teach a boxer to change his jab into an eye gouge. Wrong situation. You would more than likely break a finger or two on his face. You use the eye gouge if they have a hold of you, are sitting on your chest, or somewhere they aren't able to move much or aren't expecting you to be able to hit hard, then you poke him in the eyes and then use this distrction to nail him.

Sorry dude - that's utter nonesense!

Firstly - the eye "JAB" is a fast strike delivered at the same range & the same timing as a boxing jab. Done correctly there is less chance of injuing your hand than when using a fist.

Believe me - If a cometend grappler is sitting on your chest then it is HE who will have the opportunity to poke your eye. Poking ana eye from underneath a mounted position is plain dumb. try it on a decent grappler & see what reaction you get. My bet is on a eye poke of his own, a snapped elbow - or both.

[YODA]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
Wat's the big deal about gloves???? :confused: I never wore a glove in my life when sparring....only bare-fisted, n never got injured....

|Cain|


In that case you either never sparred full contact or you consistently knock out your training partners (or you punch like a wuss :D)

[Cain]

I punch like a wuss :D

Seriously I mean that we usually spar under these rules -

Full power allowed
Only classical punch allowed to the torso , nowhere else
kicks not allowed below the belt

c'mon man I think gloves is an overrated protection I hv never known of anyone with his knuckles injured.....

|Cain|

[YODA]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
I punch like a wuss :D

Seriously I mean that we usually spar under these rules -

Full power allowed
Only classical punch allowed to the torso , nowhere else
kicks not allowed below the belt

c'mon man I think gloves is an overrated protection I hv never known of anyone with his knuckles injured.....

|Cain|


I don't REALLY have to say it - do I?

Sheesh :(

[Cain]

Say it, would luv to read ur opinion......in case I am wrong....maybe I will learn something....after all I am just saying wat I know

|Cain|

[YODA]

Ok my opinion....

No punching to the head?

What is THAT all about? No wonder you don't need gloves.

Where do you think an attacker in the street is going to punch you? How can you hope to defend against it unless your sparring partners try to hit you with it?

Those "Classical punches to the torso" must be very over rated. If I used body punches full contact with no gloves I would break ribs on a regular basis - hell, my training budy (Cyclepath) broke someone's recently wearing 18oz gloves!

[Cain]

Geez!!! u guys must hv a hulleva lotsa power anyways I see ur point.....but you must understand that I am not so experienced so bear with me please, by the way I was a little wrong in my earlier post.....yes I hv sparred with gloves before but they were kinda weird.....with just cotton covering the top of the fist, the only face punch that is allowed is the backfist.

So ok I must be wrong.....can't really argue on things I don't know about much I guess.....

|Cain|

[YODA]

It's all learning Cain :D

[Cain]

Ya....I guess......that's the reason why I am on MAP :D

hey u got to 1000 posts already? :eek:

|Cain|

[TkdWarrior]

<. If I pused body punches full contact with no gloves I would break ribs on a regular basis >
this is truth...
-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

I agree with that....wat I meant that I punch like a wuss and hv to improve :D

|Cain|

[TkdWarrior]

no if u don't hav any idea about distance, timing, precision then all ur power willl be lost...
work on first three...u'll hav the fourth too...
-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

ya....but actually my punch is fine but it's the way I am 'supposed' to throw my punch that it's weak......I will leave it to u to figure it out....

|Cain|

[TkdWarrior]

<I will leave it to u to figure it out....>
nah i m busy with those darn semester xams ....
there's post by Tosh_spice where he tried to tell the difference b/w hitting ppl n hitting board...
u'll get most of wat i said from his post...
i m just lazy to find that post for u...
-TkdWarrior-

[YODA]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
ya....but actually my punch is fine but it's the way I am 'supposed' to throw my punch that it's weak......I will leave it to u to figure it out....

|Cain|

I figured it out :D

[pgm316]

do you throw it from the hip, thought that generated lots power?

[johndoch]

Quote: Mike Flanagan


"You obviously think there's merit to both ways - gloves and no gloves. Presumably you think both have strengths/weaknesses?"

Yes I do think there are advantages to wearing/not wearing gloves.

Firstly punching with gloves on adds extra weight onto your arms, ok 16oz may not seem a lot but after numerous rounds of sparring it is.
I find when sparring with 16oz'ers on my arms fatigue quicker than without gloves on. Therefore I feel that my arms are getting more of a workout. I also found that when my arms are fatigued with gloves on my backfist was pretty poor but at the same time I could still jab and cross with good power.

Gloves also allow you to spar at a higher more aggresive tempo than without gloves as you can hit that bit harder and still pull your punches as you have an inch of padding to feel the impact. Do this without gloves and you'll find that when you pull your punch you've already given your opponent a cut/bruise or sent him/her flat on their ass.

However I do agree that with gloves on you can punch above your technique as gloves are more forgiving on the joints. That is why on the heavy bag/focus mitts etc I tend to mix it up between gloves and bare hands.

[Cain]

Not necessarily.....but u got kinda close to it pgm.......if u think u figured it out then pm me.

|Cain|