Need to spar?

[pgm316]

For many people sparring is an essential part of training, although a relatively risky part of their training its there to practice and really pressure test their techniques. Other people consider it too risky and because of this, an unnecessary part of martial arts training.

What’s your opinion?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by pgm316
For many people sparring is an essential part of training, although a relatively risky part of their training its there to practice and really pressure test their techniques. Other people consider it too risky and because of this, an unnecessary part of martial arts training.

What’s your opinion?

I can't really answer your poll (the question isn't specific enough).

The necessity of sparring will depend on the reasons that a person is training. If a person is training with the goal (whether primary or secondary [or even tertiary]) of actually being able to apply their material against an aggressive attacker, then sparring is vital.

If, though, they're not interested in that and are only interested in health aspects, or any of the other myriad reasons people train ... then, no, sparring isn't necessary.

People who do spar, though, tend to get lost in the sparring (at least in my experience). They get it in their heads that sparring = fighting. That's simply not true. Sparring is a training tool ... nothing more, nothing less. It has its place for some people. For others it is a waste of time ... or even detrimental to their development.

Mike

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Sparring is a tool, a drill, same as any other. It has benefits, and it has drawbacks. I simply believe that for many people, particularly beginners and advanced students, the drawbacks outweigh the benefits.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Sparring is a tool, a drill, same as any other. It has benefits, and it has drawbacks. I simply believe that for many people, particularly beginners and advanced students, the drawbacks outweigh the benefits.

"particularly beginners and advanced students"?

Depending on your shadings, that *could* include everyone. Was that a typo?

Mike

[stump]

Dunno about whether you'd put pressure testing alongside sparring, but I think pressure testing is an essential aspect of a martial art if you think you may ever have to use it for real.

Without pressure testing you have no idea how you'll feel when push comes to shove....with pressure testing you've got some idea

[Melanie]

There are many ways I could learn to defend myself. I could carry mace, carry a knife, not go out, or do martial arts (amongst many other things).

If I wanted to get fit and not get injured I wonder what I'd do? Netball? I know two girls who have had fractured ribs, collar bones and a broken wrist. Not that then.
Rowing maybe? Pulled muscles in the shoulders arms back, etc.
Weight training....er, the same...
How about walking? Twisted ankles, blisters...ummm

Everything we do in life has risk. Naturally we do everything in our power to not hurt or injure ourselves, but its the fact you are testing yourself, pushing your own limits with this physical exercise that makes it hopefully worth the trouble.

I have never been seriously injured in my life and I have no particular wish to either but would like the opportunity to learn new skills to defend myself and others if the need ever arose.

That said though, how much do I learn from sparring with compliant and not-terribly-resisting people? I would have thought that would have been a better reason than getting hurt myself?

Only one way to pressure test IMO.....





Ultimate Fighting Championship...I love watching them :D

[Acekicken]

:) Maybe not for everyone but for me the answer is yes.

[Melanie]

yes what exactly Acekicken?

[Acekicken]

For Me The Need to Spar is a must
I am heavy into compotition.
Submisson Wrestling , Ju Jitsu
MMA ( Mixed Martial Arts )
Arnis, American Wrestling

Sparing keeps my skills sharp
& lets me know if im geting sloppy
It lets Me know that i have to push my self to suceed.
___________________________________.

[YODA]

Martial arts without sparring is like practicing set moves on a chess board without ever actually facing another player & playing a game of chess.

[Acekicken]

:D That is so true.

[pgm316]

Question a bit vague? Yes but it is a vague subject. Its aimed at the average martial artist, which covers a wide variety of stuff. I was thinking less the health side, tai chi etc.

I have the same views as Yoda. To me its always seemed like learning a game without ever playing it! Other people seem quite convinced its possible, so I like to have an open mind. Maybe its not about whether you need to spar or not, just what is possible without out[?]

I got to disagree with you about UFC being the best test Mel. Its so geared up for groundfighters. Sure its one hell of a test, but its not the definitive MA's test. IMO ;)

[pesilat]

Originally posted by pgm316
I have the same views as Yoda. To me its always seemed like learning a game without ever playing it! Other people seem quite convinced its possible, so I like to have an open mind. Maybe its not about whether you need to spar or not, just what is possible without out[?]

Yes, that's probably a better issue. I agree completely with Yoda if someone is actually hoping to be able to use their skills against a real aggressor. They *have* to spar.

If they're not interested in that, then they don't *need* sparring ... but it's probably still a good idea.

If they're not interested in self-defense at all, then I'd wonder why they're in an MA class to begin with (I think this ties in with what Mel said). Why don't they do Tae Bo or something if they're not interested in actual application.

Mike

[Andrew Green]

Would like to qualify though, it does depend on why you train and how you spar.

[Andy Murray]

Snaps his fingers at the back of the class!

Me Miss, me Miss!

[Melanie]

Originally posted by pgm316
I got to disagree with you about UFC being the best test Mel. Its so geared up for groundfighters. Sure its one hell of a test, but its not the definitive MA's test. IMO ;)

Ok, ok, it has a lot to do with groundfighting - but there is some techniques performed standing up - well briefly anyway... ;)

I only say UFC because its the best test I have seen to date of techniques 'in action'. I expect there are plenty of others (?) but I haven't been exposed to them yet. I haven't even managed to make it to a karate tournament yet, but hope to rectify that in the new year.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
Would like to qualify though, it does depend on why you train and how you spar.

Its true, if people do it for health/fun, then there really is no point sparring. I really meant the question aimed at the individual ie why you train, how you spar. Instead of the global should we spar. Because we can only really answer the question from our own point of view.

[pgm316]

This could start a UFC discussion Mel! I don’t disagree with you, I also enjoy it a lot and it probably is the best test[?] Although a test of fighting professional fighters, but that’s not what I’m trying to train for.

I have been disillusioned with it lately. Many ways its geared towards ground fighters. For one the ring has a bouncy surface which makes it more difficult to generate striking power. When you get to the ground, some of the best weapons against a grappler have been taken away, ie bites, eye gouges and the risk of outside interference. Then its arguably easier to make someone tap out than for example two kick boxers slugging it out for a knockout. And then again, what use is a tapout to us in a street situation.

I couldn’t see a Gracie fighting in the same way in a pub, on the floor in a mount position. He probably fight more like a kickboxer. Although still win with ease, but what other test is there for us, sky ones fight school !? :D

[Martial Sloth]

Sparring to me is the ultimate see-for-yourself-what-works scenario, what doesnt, whats effective, whats not in a situation where the opponent is not only resisting your moves, but "throwing" his own. Its a fluid, dynamic situation where you are both on the offensive and defensive, teaching you when a particular move is most useful, and when it would be useless.
Without experience and exposure to that "uncontrolled" (note: I use that word loosely for lack of a better word) situation, you simply cant not learn to streamline your attack, cutting out moves that wont work etc.

So yes, IMO sparring is merely a tool to growth, but an important tool at that.

[wayofthedragon]

sparing essential......that may be in some cases. However, sparring is one of the best ways to train in my oppionion. Everyone may not need to spar as much as another person would need it, but the truth is, weather you need it or not, sparring does improve you in various ways. And to some extend, I believe it is very neccessary to do atleast some sparring.

[Andy Murray]

Hmm MA without sparring..........lemme think????

Nope!

Drawbacks to sparring..........hmmmm???

Nope!

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by pgm316

I have been disillusioned with it lately. Many ways its geared towards ground fighters. For one the ring has a bouncy surface which makes it more difficult to generate striking power.


Don't know about that...

But wouldn't the non-grappler also benefit from not landing on a hard surface...


When you get to the ground, some of the best weapons against a grappler have been taken away, ie bites, eye gouges and the risk of outside interference.


Those are also the best weapons for a grappler, and the one in control of positioning is going to be the one most capable of delivering these things.


Then its arguably easier to make someone tap out than for example two kick boxers slugging it out for a knockout. And then again, what use is a tapout to us in a street situation.


They don't tap, you follow through.
Choke - you go to sleep
Lock - You get hurt, badly.

I'd say a choke out is a great way to end a street situation. Quick, efficient, effective and no serious damage( = Less chance of legal problems later)

[YODA]

Andrew - I'm with you 100%

It constantly amazes me how many people think that a grappler would suddenly be at a disadvantage if eye boinks & biting where allowed - most grapplers I know would grin from ear to ear if you said they could gouge too :D

[johndoch]

Yoda,

I think when strikers watch UFC, Bushido etc they watch grapplers and think I'd bite them there and I'd gouge them there. Whilst most grapplers tend to watch the grappling techniques and how to apply them. So in essence some people dont want to wrestle and only think of the nasties to counter grappling whilst others want to wrestle and dont consider (or dont make time to consider) the gouging/biting etc.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by YODA
Andrew - I'm with you 100%

It constantly amazes me how many people think that a grappler would suddenly be at a disadvantage if eye boinks & biting where allowed - most grapplers I know would grin from ear to ear if you said they could gouge too :D

Eh no Yoda, don't misquote me! Or allow me to amaze you :D I said weapons against a grappler ie weapons for the unskilled grappler. Easier for a kickboxer to gouge or bite than apply a figure 4 arm lock!

I'm 15 stone and done Judo for many years (as well as WC). I ended up on the floor against a much bigger person. I bit his ear, it worked very well. Luckily for him I left it attached to his head! So yes I use those techniques and I agree.

I still believe what I said is right, compared to a street situation the advantage "shifts" in the favour of a ground fighter. I know in the street you would break the arm, I would too. My point was in UFC that isn't even necessary! Plus I forgot to mention the use of padded gloves takes the sting out of a strike.

I didn't say the UFC was a farce. The replies make it sound like I did. Its just not the ultimate MA's test!

[TkdWarrior]

It constantly amazes me how many people think that a grappler would suddenly be at a disadvantage if eye boinks & biting where allowed - most grapplers I know would grin from ear to ear if you said they could gouge too
it'll work no matter wat but grappler r not supposed to do it :D :p
askin me those bites n gouges r not easy if u down there...
-TkdWarrior-

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
[B]

Don't know about that...

But wouldn't the non-grappler also benefit from not landing on a hard surface...


The bouncy surface of a ring does absorb some striking power. Porbably worse with kicks thans punches.

But yeah I suppose the landing will be less painful!



Those are also the best weapons for a grappler, and the one in control of positioning is going to be the one most capable of delivering these things.



Yes they are good weapons for a grappler! Good weapons for anybody and easy to learn.


They don't tap, you follow through.
Choke - you go to sleep
Lock - You get hurt, badly.

I'd say a choke out is a great way to end a street situation. Quick, efficient, effective and no serious damage( = Less chance of legal problems later)

Yes I agree totally. My comments we're only about UFC.

[mattsylvester]

I think that it depends on what sort of sparring. Sport sparring is fine if you're training for competitive martial arts whether traditional or Freestyle.

Sport sparring however is wasted on those who want to study practical street techniques and would be useless, however, training in 1v1 1v2, 2v3 etc with or without pads and in an aggressive manner would be good for those people.

[morphus]

I agree with the fact , that it depends on how you spar.

If you spar for points, letting your opponent strike back, blocking as he does and dancing around a large room, i don't see much benefit from this.
If you spar using all ranges giving as much resistance as you can stand kicking/striking/punching/elbows/knees/grappling/groundwork/biting/gauging in a safe and co-operative manner using not much more space than a telephone box would have, then there should be a lot of benefits!!!!

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Without active sparring, you WILL NOT have the timing and reflexes required for the application of your techniques.

[Jamo]

Hello All,

YES, IMO, sparring is extremely necessary! Notwithstanding the need to practice for tournaments, it's a way for students to learn to adequately control their body enough for the day they have to defend themselves...should that day arrive. Instructors have them spar and spar and spar and spar...hopefully the repetition of this and other drills gets the students to the point where the movements of sparring are second nature. In the end, they will be more successful in defending themselves than if they didn't practice sparring.

Jamo

[Shadowchild]

It's important to learn what it is like to fight... in controlled circumstances of course.

[KickChick]

"Essential" ....


You need to practice the techniques you've been shown and really do need the opportunity to try them in a controlled, non-threatening environment. TYou need to understand what is expected though you may not yet be capable of using most of your learned skills effectively up to your point in training. Sparring needs to be done so that mistakes can be explained and bad habits can be caught early.

Martial arts does involve dealing with an opponent, .... sparring allows the student to learn about reactions, timing, and speed.

[pgm316]

Would you say you can get those skills from light sparring or does it also need to be done in a realistic pressure testing way...... ?

I'd say sparring is very important, essential for certain things like KC said. But you'll only get out what you put in, you can use only drills, you will learn so much. Light sparring will take you in a new direction. But pressure testing will teach you new things and show you what you know!

[Shadowchild]

I think that it all depends on the level of the students involved. I advocate very light sparring to start with. Learn what it feels like to take a punch or a kick.

As time progresses and the student feels more confident then the pressure should be upped. However I do stress then when the sparring becomes more serious, it should be monitored by instructors. It is no good to have one instructor trying to monitor 3 or 4 different sessions at once either.

Also, once the sparring is up to a certain level, safety measures should be considered - eg, pads, heads guards etc.

[KickChick]

Bear in mind that there are several ways to spar within the various martial arts.

There's point sparring or fast point drills, (for tournament purposes) wherein the focus is scoring that first point. . You practice to score a decisive point on your opponent within a very short period of time ... a matter of winnning or losing...

Then of course there is light/semi- contact, full contactwith gear and without and no contact sparring with no gear ( the most difficult for me personally!) and even , blind sparring and 3-person sparring. All of which focus on different areas.

[johndoch]

I think the most important thing about sparring is respect. Its a training tool which in my opinion is probably one of the most important tools we have.

But one thing I hate is the ego maniacs who think sparring is about winning. Theyre the kind of people who'll probably wreck a beginners confidence thats something to watch out for

[Jamo]

Yes, people like that ruin the experience of martial arts. Sparring is all about setting a comfortable level between two people and going at it with that in mind. If I have a new student that comes in with mind to hurt people, then he/she needs to be shown the error of their ways. If they stay after that, then they are worthy of continuing...if they've learned from the experience. If they disappear, you've saved your class from future injuries.

Jamo

[Cain]

Sparring?

Required, essential, necessarry, fun, mixed feelings etc etc

Anything else me forgot :D

|Cain|

[pgm316]

Originally posted by KickChick
Bear in mind that there are several ways to spar within the various martial arts.

There's point sparring or fast point drills, (for tournament purposes) wherein the focus is scoring that first point. . You practice to score a decisive point on your opponent within a very short period of time ... a matter of winnning or losing...

Then of course there is light/semi- contact, full contactwith gear and without and no contact sparring with no gear ( the most difficult for me personally!) and even , blind sparring and 3-person sparring. All of which focus on different areas.

Thats the important thing about sparring, that there is many ways. If you don't understand the different ways, your probably not getting much out of your sparring.

Its like the people that think they win during the light sparring, win in light sparring, what!? :D

[oneil357]

If your afraid of getting hurt or your training someone sparring is a essential tool , but i suggest the real thing!

"Violence can only be stopped by greater violence"Bruce LEE

[kempocos]

SPARRING IS A MUST , If you do not want to fight/spar take aerobis/tae bo. The only way to learn to use fighting techniquies is to spar. Drills and Kata have there place, however that is to prepare you to spar. When you train in Martail Arts you are training as a fighter. YOGA, AERBICS are for health. IMHO

[saikyou]

Its the closest thing to a real fight. Its a must.

[KungFuGrrrl]

I used to spar but no longer can due to ruptured disc and arthritis in spine.

However I Live in Los Angeles and have had many *real life situations* over the last 7 years.

I believe sparring is very good and fun to watch-but not necessary for everyone. as I have applied my MA knowledge and skills in the real life situations and came out well or winning. I must admit I have had my nose broke a few time but hey, I walked out.

Sparring serves a purpose but for me, in sparing I cant really bil jee(fingers) in my opponents eye. or cant really break his knee or fak sau (knife hand) to his throat. and he has to be carefulnot to slam me to the floor and hurt my bad back.........

I get practise from the sticking hands and chi sau and chi gerk(sticking leg) done not as a set but free style.

I also used to box, southpaw, welterweight so I DO know what it is like to get hit!!!
So for ME not everyone, sparring is not neccesary.

because of my injuries, If attacked I must go all out and hold nothing back.