Sport or Combat??

[STASH]

I agree with everything Kat, Yoda and Stump have just said. Muay Thai is a great striking art and very practical (as long as it is taught properly).

[binski20]

That is basically what I have learned about mauy thai thus far, is that it is an effective striking art. I was just curious if it had been watered down as many arts these days seem to be. I have heard that original muay thai employed open hand strikes, and that the closed fist strikes used to day were only implemented within this century.
However, i know there is alot of different things said about all the arts, and no one really knows what is true anymore. I am currently boxing, but would like to learn muay thai in order to gain the extra weapons it provides. boxing may be the sweet science. but mauy thai is the science of 8 limbs.

[YODA]

Cool - boxing will help a lot, you'll have a good start.

Go for it & be sure to let us know how you get on.

[nicolo]

Is it sport or combat? I can't friggin tell the difference...in the ring it feels like combat to me. The only difference is that you're only fighting a single opponent and there are no broken bottles and rocks laying around. But the strikes, they still hurt the same.

I guess if you're used to the heavily padded and controlled environments of sport karate or something, it may be quite a shock to you. With the exception of biting, eye gouging and nut cracking, muay Thai is pretty close as it gets to beating the crap out of another person standing up.

[Andy Pandy]

Nicely put....

[Rob Wyatt]

Muay Thai was created for war thousands of years ago. So it is very effective for combat. Not only because of the quick solid type movement's, but also of learning to take hit's and keep your head clear. The full contact sparring! Also a great sport.

[zun]

Sokklab where are when we need you???

MT has rules and has a ref. And so is a sport. This doesn't mean that it isn't effective in combat.

Unfortunately, MT in the ring has removed many effective techniques because they are deemed to dangerous for the ring.

Check out for Muay Boram and Ling Lom for no-holds barred MT!

Sokklab will be here I'm sure to explain fully. :D

[SoKKlab]

Hokay Muay Thai is both a sport with Rules and a Fighting Art/ Martial Art with it's own preferences and sensibilities.

True that the majority of Muay Thai is taught and fought mainly as a sport, nothing wrong with that, except when the concentration is totally upon the distilled Sporting techniques and not the entire scope of the art.

I'm sure that most people reading this well know, that there is a whole other side to the art other than standard Ring Rules stuff.

I'm actually quite shocked at the amount of people that I meet that profess to 'Do Muay Thai' and yet they don't even seem to know the core of the Art, IE Muay Boran and particularly the Mae Mai (Master tricks) and Luk Mai (Complimentary tricks) as a starting point. Shocking! What are they learning?

From what I see about the place, most of the malarkey that passes as Muay Thai is in fact K-1 style Kickboxing with a bit of elbow wafting thrown in for good measure.

Nothing wrong with that, as it gives a good base to whatever you want to add Muay Thai too, just that that is not Muay Thai, that is Muay Thai by dilution. Best to learn real Muay Thai in it's entirety.

To those of you who are practising the full extent of the art, good luck and keep at it. Sport and Art in it's entirety is the thing and that will also encourage more people to stay with the art, when they decide to stop training for purely sporting purposes, as the Fighting Art of Muay Thai is an extremely effective system of combat suited for whatever purpose it needs to be, be it sport, art or Personal Protection.

And Ling Lom?, well Ling Lom is thee thing.

[nicolo]

well there is a spiritual side and rich history to muay Thai but you won't really find that here in the states. Everything is commercialized and trimmed down so it's quick and dirty...as digestable as possible. I think people do learn some of the techniques in mae mai/luk mai but they don't realize it and they don't know how to call it by the poetic name. The kru/adjarn would have to be that good and strict to ensure everyone learns it all as a whole - muay boran/chaiya/kaacheurk, mae mai and luk mai tricks, ling lum, ground techniques, mass attacks, lerdrit, etc etc. But it's all about the Benjamins so you have to cut corners here and there.

[Combatant]

Combat with padded hands, and sexy shorts (and a few more rules). :)

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by nicolo
The kru/adjarn would have to be that good and strict to ensure everyone learns it all as a whole - muay boran/chaiya/kaacheurk, mae mai and luk mai tricks, ling lum, ground techniques, mass attacks, lerdrit, etc etc. But it's all about the Benjamins so you have to cut corners here and there.

True! So true! Never mind the teacher being strict the student would have to be dedicated and yeah Moneeeee is the guiding light, sad but true.

[nicolo]

yep, you're pretty much on your own most of the time outside of class. You'll need to do most of the background work if you want a well-rounded understanding of MT. I remember no one ever told me about mae mai/luk mai until I researched it myself. Now whether these techniques will still stand the test of time in ring or street combat remains to be seen.
IMHO, muay thai still needs to be stripped to it's bare essentials and modified slightly for street situations. As long as the practitioner understands the difference, it can work in most situations.

[electrobes]

what do you mean by being on your own mostly outside of class... do you mean practicing moves? Or did you mean other techniques?

[nicolo]

it means that if you truly want to understand muay Thai, you need to immerse yourself in its culture, history, techniques, background, etc. Find all the little details. Treat it as a budo - like you were living as a young Thai boxer in Thailand. For those kids, it's a means of earning a living, getting some rice in the bowl and a ticket out of the other less than glamorous possiblities of life. For most of us, we hold down jobs, have kids to feed, mortgages to pay, etc. Therefore learning all the other stuff may not be as essential to us, unless we were training to fight or be instructors or unless we had a deep profound interest in that area. So trainers strip away some of that from the curriculum, trim the excess away to appease their customers. Make it a bit easier for them. After all, customers want to learn to kick butt not have a history lesson...most customers are like that.
But the main point was whether muay Thai was sport or combat and what ppl were saying was that although it had strictly battlefield-tested combative roots, most of the older techniques were stripped away and customized to the ring sport you see today - thus leaving a subset of the former style. As a result many students nowadays are being deprived of the real "meat" of the art - either because the instructor doesn't know it, or for purposes of a speedier learning process. Some are even getting a half-ass understanding of the basics.

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by nicolo
But the main point was whether muay Thai was sport or combat and what ppl were saying was that although it had strictly battlefield-tested combative roots, most of the older techniques were stripped away and customized to the ring sport you see today - thus leaving a subset of the former style. As a result many students nowadays are being deprived of the real "meat" of the art - either because the instructor doesn't know it, or for purposes of a speedier learning process. Some are even getting a half-ass understanding of the basics.

Excellently put Sir!

[nicolo]

i have no idea what I was saying...

[Adam]

It's a sport that works very well in combat.

[SoKKlab]

Or it's Combat that works very well in Sport...

Apart from if you believe some of the tripe spoken about Muay Thai on the Deluded, sorry, I mean, Ninjitsu forum....

I train in Muay Thai, it is not a Sport to me, it is a tool for defending my life.

I have, in the past trained and fought in Muay Thai purely as a sport.

All is Valid, just make sure you get to eat the whole peach and not just the skin.

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by binski20
Just curious about muay thai. I am considering trying it out and was wondering if it has become more of a sport than combat?
I am meaning no disrespect and making no assumptions, just wanna know the facts.
Thanks.
I would say it depends where you learn it and how you apply it. I am from the streets so when I learn something I learn it for the streets. Let's take destructions for instance. A lot of schools will not show you these because they aren't very sportman(KB) like, yet they are some of the most effective techs I have ever seen for a street fight(MT).

It really depends on your teachers frame of mind and yours. If you go to a school ask them if this is for tournament fighting or self defense.

Originally posted by nicolo
But the main point was whether muay Thai was sport or combat and what ppl were saying was that although it had strictly battlefield-tested combative roots, most of the older techniques were stripped away and customized to the ring sport you see today - thus leaving a subset of the former style. As a result many students nowadays are being deprived of the real "meat" of the art - either because the instructor doesn't know it, or for purposes of a speedier learning process. Some are even getting a half-ass understanding of the basics.

:D good answer:D
my sig says it all

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Yo, Yo, Yo! I'm from the streets, werd up.:)

The mean streets of Bellevue, Nebraska?

[goatnipples2002]

yes I am from Bellevue and these streets aren't mean. I never said they were. So speak on what you know. Do you know me NO, well if you knew me you would know my background. Don't assume things you make yourself look dumb.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Is this the part where you tell us all about your 3 years in prison?

I don't know you, but I know Bellevue. So in turn, touting yourself as a "Street Pugilist" "from the streets" who learns everything "for the streets" might just make you look "dumb" as well.

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting
Is this the part where you tell us all about your 3 years in prison?

I don't know you, but I know Bellevue. So in turn, touting yourself as a "Street Pugilist" "from the streets" who learns everything "for the streets" might just make you look "dumb" as well.

You sound really smart now,huh? What art do you practice and for how long? Been in any REAL street confrontations or are you a hermit to prevent this? Been in any situations where there was some REAL danger to your physical well being? Is there a problem with me learning for the streets? How does that make me look dumb?

The street is where self defence matters, Maybe I'm the only one who wants to make it home to kiss his loved ones!

Bless me with your words of wisdom.

Do know what a pugilist is, a bare knuckle boxer, I don't/won't fight with gloves?

The reason I learned from the streets is because I never had anybody say,"Hey you wanna train with me or join my school", but I bet you did, your parents could probably afford for you to go to an MA school huh? I was fighting before I had a chance to train or join a school/dojo. You can only get into so many fights before you start to defend yourself. I thought I knew how to fight, but I only knew how to use my survival instincts, now I am learning to defend myself to my best ability with the 9 weapons god gave me. I learned the way I did and I picked up valuable lessons you can't get from a school, I suppose you're gonna argue that too, huh? There's NO substitute for experience!

[Cain]

LOL! Like Yoda says - What a wozak! :rolleyes:

|Cain|

[Trent Tiemeyer]

I've been in assorted martial arts since 1986.

A bouncer since 1995.

My principle styles right now are submission wrestling and kickboxing, but I have studied Tae Kwon Do, Judo, HapKiDo, Boxing, Tai Chi, Shaolin Fu, Kenpo, Greco, Freestyle, and BJJ.

I've fought pro MMA, Boxing, No-Gi sub wrestling, and Muay Thai.

I've had more streetfights than you've had hot meals.

Make no presumptions about my upbringing.

Lawrence is great. Kind of like Bellevue, except my Omaha is Kansas City.

I have no problem with anyone training for reality and the street. You seem to have a problem with others training for the ring.

You say there's no substitute for experience? There's also no substitute for qualified instruction.

"Boo Hoo, nobody asked me to join their club."

Maybe you should have ASKED them.

[nzric]

**grabs popcorn**

[Trent Tiemeyer]

No need. I'm done.

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting
I have no problem with anyone training for reality and the street. You seem to have a problem with others training for the ring. I watch fight videos to see peoples mistakes and how I can prevent them from happening to me.

You say there's no substitute for experience? There's also no substitute for qualified instruction.

Maybe you should have ASKED them.

I do disagree with the ring because I see so many people train for the ring and get into street fights and get hurt because they train by a set of rules. That's my only compliant. Beat the piss out of somebody or get seriosly hurt for entertainment, money or less for pride. That makes no sense to me. Why not full contact spar? Just my .02

You are absolutely correct there is no replacement for qualified instruction and that I am seeking now, but I figure until then might as well hit something and attempt to better myself and not be a lazy bum.

I am trying to find a school that fits me. There are some good schools around here but they seem to be after the money because alot of their students lack the things I would expect them to know in 6mo. to a year. Are you an instructor?

I'm done agruing it gets me no where. Did any of your style contradict each other? I mean in alot CMA they say punch with bottom 3 knuckles and alot of JMA say the top two.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Why not full contact spar?

Full contact sparring is not the be all and end all. It still has rules and limits. People can be unnecessarily injured during it. If you want to compare full contact sparring to an actual, real fight then I have one major discrepancy between the two. In most full-contact sparring sessions, both people involved walk away.


I'm done agruing it gets me no where. Did any of your style contradict each other? I mean in alot CMA they say punch with bottom 3 knuckles and alot of JMA say the top two.

Mine says both depending on the target and the angle of the punch, but favours the top two.

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by LilBunnyRabbit
Full contact sparring is not the be all and end all. It still has rules and limits. People can be unnecessarily injured during it. If you want to compare full contact sparring to an actual, real fight then I have one major discrepancy between the two. In most full-contact sparring sessions, both people involved walk away.


Mine says both depending on the target and the angle of the punch, but favours the top two.


I was comparing full contact sparing to ring fighting. Nothing is the end all, solve all because in actual combat there are way too many varibles.