Self taught Martial Arts (Hold on, don't jump to conclusions yet!)

[Sean O]

I really want to learn at least one MA (not to be like jackie chan or iron monkey, but for self defense, philosophy, etc.) but the thing is that inbetween my job, schoolwork and my spare time, I cant really fit lessons in anywhere (plus the cost of lessons is a bit of an issue). So what I started doing is buying books, looking at websites, I've found a couple of instructional videos as well (acually joining this forum was one of the ways I hoped to decide which art to focus on).

I'm basically hoping that studying these techniques and such whenever I can will help me to learn to defend myself and get more inner strength, although I know that what I'm doing wont be as effective as taking lessons.

What I want to know from you guys is, is what I'm doing worth doing at all? And if it is, then how much worse is it than taking lessons?

Sean O

[Sean O]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. I have a friend who is also interested in doing what I'm doing, and we kind of practice the techniques on each other (keeping safety in mind, of course)

[Acekicken]

U can learn from Video's , Books, the net.
Practise makes perfect.

i Use Vidoes & books all the Time.
They may cost a little Money but
they do help.

u & your partner are on the Rite track
Remember to respect each other while training.

_________________________________________-

A suggestion on Video's
Some 0f the best Vidoe's i've seen
came from these Martial artist.

Neil adams
Mike Swain
Paul Vunak
Frank Shamrock
Marco Ruas
_________________________________________-
A Suggestion on Books
Some of My Favorite's

Ken Shamrock's - in side the lions den
Bruce Lee's - Tao of Jkd
Gene Lebell's Grappling Master
Rigan Machado's - Essecnce of BJJ
Zoran Rebac's - Thai Boxing Dynamite
_________________________________________-

One other sugestion
since ther are two of u
U guy's should invest in
some Equipment
Like Thai pads
Focus Mits
Mats

______________________________________--
Of course not at once but
over time As U grow with
Your technique U may need to up the Challenge.

Train Hard don't give up
Keep an opean Mind
And above all have Fun:p

_________________________________-
ACE
><><><

[Sean O]

Nice :) Thanks I'll look into those videos and books. Of course if anyone has any more resources for me, please tell me.

Sean O

[Acekicken]

:D

[Levo]

Hi, interesting subject.

There is a huge difference between being self trained and training by yourself (both of which you seem to be asking about). I haven't had an instructor per se for a long time (I try to learn from everyone I meet and train with though) so consider myself essentially self trained right now. However, I have training partners and train with people at my club.

First question is what are your specific goals?

---------------

If you want to learn Self Protection (avoiding conflict and dealing with it quickly and brutally when you can't) then yes I think you can develop that quite a bit by yourself and training with a friend. Although a good club would still be better (note: I say "good club", there are a lot of terrible club out there whose Self Protection systems will get you killed).

Awareness, avoidance, loop holing, posturing, the fence, preemptive striking etc can all be trained with little equipment or space.

In addition, for fighting in the street being first and being brutal are as important (or more important IMO) than years training in martial arts.

For learning about Self Protection I highly recommend the following:

Books

1. Streetwise
By Peter Consterdine
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1873475527/leicestershootfi

2. Dead or Alive
By Geoff Thompson
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1873475365/leicestershootfi

3. Strong On Defence
By Sanford Strong
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671535110/leicestershootfi

Videos

1. The Fence
By Geoff Thompson
http://www.GeoffThompson.com

2. 3 Second Fighter
By Geoff Thompson
http://www.GeoffThompson.com

3. Combatives 1-3
By Jim Grover
http://www.paladin-press.com/

---------------

You can freely indulge an interest in martial arts (the philosophy etc) without attending a class.

You can also pretend you are learning how to fight, many in the martial arts do.

However, if want to be a martial artist and learn how to really fight at all ranges (stand up, clinch and ground - or any one of those ranges for that matter) with any competency then NO you can't learn that by training by yourself.

Solo training is a SUPPLEMENT to, not a REPLACEMENT for, training with live partners. It is useful for developing some attributes and familiarising yourself with movements but it doesn't teach you how to fight.

Also, just because you are training by yourself doesn't mean you don't need instruction in how to do it PRODUCTIVLY. Good bag work and shadow boxing for example are skills, to get the most out it you need some guidance in their use.

Do you or your friend have any martial arts experience?

If you do, then solo training or training with a friend can be of use. If not, it won't. How can you train something you don't already know?

If you're honestly interested in MA your priority must be to find a good club and start training there.

---------------

Books, videos etc can be a good introduction to a subject. They can also be useful for giving you new ideas (once you already have a base of knowledge), reviewing material you've covered and/or picking up details to improve what you're already doing.

But, videos don't teach you how to do something to any level of competency if you have no previous experience at all in the subject.

Nothing compares to actually experiencing something live from someone who knows what they are doing.

Training in isolation breeds a false sense of security. I've seen it many times and have experienced it myself. Here's two examples:

1) Some young lads came down to my club. They had seen events like the UFCs and had bought videos, books etc. They trained by themselves several times a week for quite some time, practicing techniques then sparring. They wrestled, boxed and also put it all together. They also had some previous MA experience from when they were younger. When they came down they had all the lingo down and would say things like "we know the basics" when I showed them stuff. Then we sparred. They were ok and had some skills but got totally spanked. I armlocked one about ten times in a row on the same arm but he still didn't get it, he thought he knew what an armbar was and didn't realise there are many different levels of "knowing" something.

2) We have a big focus on grappling at our club. We figured we were pretty good. We sparred guys from other clubs and did well. We also entered our beginners in a competition and they totally dominated opponents with similar experience. Then one day an Australian lad dropped by our class and tapped everyone out at will with basic techniques we thought we knew. He was a purple belt in BJJ under John Will and totally humbled us, I learnt a great deal from him, not just about technique.

Training in isolation causes this problem, you THINK you know how to do something but you really don't (many clubs fall in to this trap too). Personally, I don't really consider myself "knowing" something, it's just how I'm doing it right now and if I see a better way tomorrow that's how I'll do it.

You need to find a club that realises this and is always striving to improve.

---------------


I hope that wasn't too much of a ramble!

Regards

Nathan


PS I have a huge martial arts library, if want good book or video recommendations just ask.

[Sean O]

You raise a good point. Believe me, I would try and find a good club if I had the time/money.

I know what you mean about the false sense of security, although I do know for sure that I can defend myself with what I've taught myself so far (I was attacked by a guy with a knife once, I ended up turning it into his own shoulder rather than mine :)).

My partner and I both have some MA experience. I was a green belt in karate and he is a red belt in TKD. We both know how to train well, so I think that for the most part, this can work.

I mainly just want to learn self defense, I'm not really interested in entering in any tournaments or anything. I've never really cared about trophies or awards and the like. I quit karate because I didn't like having to memorize the katas. Although I know that they are essential to karate, I just never pictured myself ever having to use them.

What I want to do by reading these books and watching these videos is to practice/familiarize myself with the techniques so that I can use them effectively if I ever need to. I think that I can accomplish this by just carefully studying the techniques and training with my partner.

You can also pretend you are learning how to fight, many in the martial arts do.

I don't really know what you meant by that. Care to explain? :)

I guess thats all I can say for now, thanks.

Sean O

[YODA]

LOL, there's lots of things martial artists do which have nothing to do with fighting, but many convince themselves they do. For example, clubs that Dave Turton dubs "historical recreation societies" coz they dress in gis (a facsimile of old Japanese dress), speak in Japanese (despite being in the West), train kata which teach moves designed to be used in paddy fields, train with weapons not seen in conflict for hundreds of years etc etc. If they want to preserve the culture and history of their art then that's fine BUT don't pretend it's directly relevant to modern combat or that there aren't better options out there.

Hehehe...... Levo - that is pure class :D

[wayofthedragon]

Hmmm, that's how I started out, with books, vedios, internet, magazines, etc. All that is fine, it is also good if possible to find a good instructor as well.

[Sean O]

Nice to see I'm getting all this feedback.

Just a reminder (I'm not pissed or anything) that both me and my partner have some MA experience. We both know how to spar safely but effectively.

But Levo, are you saying that I don't necessarily want intructional books/videos on certain arts, but self defense in general?

Sean O

[Levo]

Originally posted by YODA
Hehehe...... Levo - that is pure class

Hehehe......I hope I wasn't being too harsh.

Just trying to be honest.

Originally posted by wayofthedragon
Hmmm, that's how I started out, with books, vedios, internet, magazines, etc. All that is fine, it is also good if possible to find a good instructor as well.[B]

Like I said, books/videos do have their uses and have helped many people (including myself) BUT it's no replacement for a good instructor or a range of knowledgeable training partners.

You may have started out with books/videos but you're at a club now right? Whole different world isn't it?

Originally posted by Sean O
[B]Just a reminder (I'm not pissed or anything) that both me and my partner have some MA experience. We both know how to spar safely but effectively.

Like I said, there's "knowing" something and KNOWING something. I often think I know something then get my ass kicked or get shown a much better way, that's what training is all about.

The two of you WILL make progress but not as much as with some (doesn't have to be a lot) instruction. How can you teach yourself something you don't know? A more knowledgeable martial artist (an instructor or training partners) will see things you don't.

To be able to analaze your own progress, without outside input, and see new ways to improve, which you haven't been taught, takes a rare kind of person. It can be done but it's VERY rare.

Originally posted by Sean O
But Levo, are you saying that I don't necessarily want intructional books/videos on certain arts, but self defense in general?

I'm trying to make several points really:

1) Self Protection can be learnt to a reasonable degree from books and videos.

2) Martial Arts on the whole are not Self Protection.

3) Books and videos have their uses (introduction to a subject, new ideas, reviewing material, picking up details etc). But...

4) Books and videos will most likely not get you to a good level competency as a well rounded martial artist. Because...

5) Training in isolation is problematic. Nothing compares to actually experiencing something live from someone who knows what they are doing. It also breeds a false sense of security and view of your skill level (who do you get to compare it against?).

6) I also touched upon the non productive aspects of martial arts coz you asked what I meant by "You can also pretend you are learning how to fight, many in the martial arts do."

I hope that clears it up for you a bit.

Remember, none of this is set in stone. Martial Arts were created by people and people can do what they want with it. This is just my perspective.

Best of luck in your training.

Regards

Nathan

[Sonshu]

There is a lot of bad press for people who do self study - if you guys are ever looking for someone to come and have a knock about with ya - more than happy let me know and I'll pop down!

Honest - I do a lot of self exploration myself and most people I train with have done at some point.

Just need someone to practice on - makes a difference!

Keep it UP!

SONSHU

[Vipe]

I began training myself when I was around 9 years old all from books. over the years I've tried a few classes as well as raining on my own but those classes fell through due to moving around and costs ( i wasnt paying £4 for one hour a weeks training and most of it was kata:mad: ). Also I prefer to train on my own I have no idea why I do like when I train with partners as it gives a better range of activities but on my own in a desolate place always makes me feel good and feel I get a full 100% out of my training. and I meant desolate place as in somewhere very open with know one near me as in the country or in a forest clearing. JUST CALL ME WEIRD:D

[Sean O]

Originally Posted by Levo
Martial Arts on the whole are not Self Protection.

Of course I know that :)

Training in isolation is problematic. Nothing compares to actually experiencing something live from someone who knows what they are doing. It also breeds a false sense of security and view of your skill level (who do you get to compare it against?).

I refer to this alot, but its a good reference. Yoda posted a thread entitled, "This could take a few posts" in which he posted Matt Thornton's view of training "Alive". Matt also pointed out the two types of martials artists today, Image based and Performance based ones. Image based martial artists are trying to fit an image of some kind, so they need validation from others in order to measure their progress.

Performance based martial artists measure their progress by comparing their current skill level to what it was before. I think you guys already know that I'm not trying to become Bruce Lee's twin :). So really, I think that my partner and I can improve by comparing our skill levels to what they were before.

Although now that I think of it, you need to be taught the technique right in order for it to be of any use. Lets just hope I find a good book then! :)

Sean O

P.S: Levo, I'm not trying to argue, I do understand what you mean by all this, I just think that there are some things that are misunderstood.

[Bon]

Then one day an Australian lad dropped by our class and tapped everyone out at will with basic techniques we thought we knew. He was a purple belt in BJJ under John Will and totally humbled us, I learnt a great deal from him, not just about technique.

Do you remember his name ?

[TkdWarrior]

1st on self defense i put geoff thompson n Mark MacYoung(www.nononsenseselfdefense.com) as best one can get their books n videos...
There is Videos series on Taiji n Bagua by Mr Erle Montaigue(ppl hav said one can actually learn something really good from videos).
2nd save money n migrate to china or philipinees(i m thinking about filipinno MA):D ;) yupiee
-TkdWarrior-

[Darzeka]

People seem to forget that there was a time before martial arts were taught.

There has to have been a time before people sat down and looked at how to fight properly.

Most of the fighting systems were based around good knoweledge of how the body works. Just look at your body and see all its ranges of movements and possible ways of using that to hurt someone. Look at your body see what hurts it - joints, areas that hurt more, falling over, etc - this is what martial arts are, not syllabuses set in stone.
All the martial arts today had a period of evolution, at what point did someone say this is as good as its gonna get?

By just thinking you can pretty much find out everything that you are capable of doing. Then with your buddy start testing things out. See if that move you thaught of works and document it all, even if it didn't seem to work cause then if you come back later and look again, other ideas may complete that one.

Buy pads and gloves then have at each other, see what happens when you get kicked in the leg.

You are merely going back to the original idea, figure a way out to efficiently hurt someone who is hostile toward you.

Saying this most martial arts have developed a reasonably good method of teaching the art and may provide some insights into the evolution of the practises.

[Sean O]

True, darzeka. There was a point when martial arts were invented. These people had no training, but still managed to train themselves. Although I do want to learn by going to classes(I'm thinking hapkido), inbetween school, homework, my social life, and other things, it'll be hard to find time. Plus I'm a little embarassed to start a new art at 14... Yeah, I know I shouldn't be, but it's just my way. Which gives me an idea for a new thread in the survey forum. :)

[dredleviathan]

Hi Sean,

I seem to be butting in our your discussions today. Seriously though you have been given a lot of good advice on the home training front.

By the sounds of it you are getting a nice home gym together and no doubt a bit of commitment on you part will help this pay off in terms of working on your conditioning - an area ignored by many people training regularly at clubs.

Videos, books, magazine articles and forums such as this are sometimes really great sources of new ideas and techniques even. Also many of these products are over-priced or plain rubbish. There's no assurance of quality as my book shelf will testify! But as Levo was saying there is no substitute to trying it out with a range of people in a live situation.

For instance I know quite a few different submission techniques but when we spar in my grappling class I only ever manage to pull a few of them off. Against my main training partner I get a few more off than perhaps against someone I don't know but thats becasue we are used to training with one another. New person new energy... new experience.

A while back Yoda was talking about defences for the Thai kick. He listed 9 options that are taught by Master Chai. Of the 9 which Yoda listed he pointed out 4 or 5 that he actually manages to use in a live situation. My Thai skills are pretty poor and when I got into the sparring class for the first time I was humbled by the so-called lower grades simply because they train this stuff all the time.

So I kind of lost my point there... I think what I was saying is that all the home study is of great use but you could spend the money that you buy videos and the time you would have taken to watch them with to go to a class. I started a brand new style at 28... sure it was frustrating have these damned whipper snappers run circles around me at the beginning but it was one of the best decisions I ever made. Don't feel past it at 14 please otherwise there is no hope for the rest of us!

About a year ago on another forum Yoda was kind enough to be quite blunt with me when I was saying about not having the time to train. Essentially he said something along the lines of there being people that spend time listing the reasons why they can't train and there are people that use that time to train (para-phrased badly no doubt).

This isn't a personal attack against you but, to contextualize, most of the people on this forum make time to attend class, plus all the supplemental training, plus they work for a living, have children, wives/husbands etc etc... we all have commitments and fit our training around it. For instance a couple of months ago I started getting up 45 minutes earlier in the morning - some days I run, some I do a body-weight routine, some days I shadow box and others I do Yoga. I live in a very small apartment in the middle of London and just make do with what I can. You'll be surprised where you can fit in the odd 30 minutew session in your day and how this adds up over the week.

I don't know where you live mate and it may be that you don't have any decent classes nearby... I grew up in a town like that. Just do what you can now - one day you be in a position to further your training.

I wish you well in your training and will now get back to work and dream of the heady days and freedom of being 14. Sorry if that sounds patronising but man that was a great time in my life!

[Sean O]

Heh, yeah I feel alot better after starting my new poll. Seems I'm not the only teen.

This isn't a personal attack against you but, to contextualize, most of the people on this forum make time to attend class, plus all the supplemental training, plus they work for a living, have children, wives/husbands etc etc... we all have commitments and fit our training around it. For instance a couple of months ago I started getting up 45 minutes earlier in the morning - some days I run, some I do a body-weight routine, some days I shadow box and others I do Yoga. I live in a very small apartment in the middle of London and just make do with what I can. You'll be surprised where you can fit in the odd 30 minutew session in your day and how this adds up over the week.

I'm not offended, man. In fact I've already asked around, and waya helped me find a hapkido school in Mississauga (where I live, of course). Although I'm torn between that, football, school, sax lessons, and work, I definately want to make time for hapkido.

Oh yeah, I posted an excuse in yodas thread a while ago. It was "It just doesn't fit into my schedule." Guess I've been using it myself.

Aside from school and everything else, I also have some other things I'm working out. So basically, I'm commited, but not quite ready (although soon I will be).

[Jim]

Sax lessons? Are you insane?... At least learn to play a real intrument like a clarinet or something... :)

[pgm316]

Really instrument! Surely a guitar, amp and distortion pedal is a real man's tools :p

Home training is good, having a training partner even better. But if you don't train at a club its easy to loose sight of the big picture. To practice techniques on your own its important to have practiced them with somebody first so you know what it feels like.

Its always a balancing act making time for training, I don't think its fair to say to somebody they should easily be able to make time. My priorities are always changing, sometimes I've trained a lot, other times I've had more interesting things to do......

[dredleviathan]

I don't think its fair to say to somebody they should easily be able to make time.

Who ever said it was EASY!!! You should see me at 6.45 in the morning cursing my way round the streets or holding downward dog :D

[pgm316]

Originally posted by dredleviathan


Who ever said it was EASY!!! You should see me at 6.45 in the morning cursing my way round the streets or holding downward dog :D

Or rephraised; less difficult :)

Theres little chance of me seeing you at 6.45, or seeing anything at 6.45 for that matter :D

[Sean O]

Well, thanks for the feedback guys. I have a few more points to make though.

- I completely understand that it's much better to train at a real club. Don't tell me this anymore.

- I know that in order to practice on my own, I need to first see it done by a professional. Don't tell me this anymore either.

- Me and my partner both have MA experience (Mine is karate and ninjitsu), so we know how to spar well.

- I actually doubt now that I will be doing any home training at all, my social life is huge now that I'm in high school. Plus I want to find a job soon.

- I'm not trying to end this thread. You guys can keep on discussing your opinions on how effective self taught martial arts are, just don't direct anything at me.

Sean O

[Bon]

You have to make the choice between a social life and training.

For me, I choose to train over have a social life, training is my social life in a way.

[pgm316]

Ahhh Bon, I tend to put social life first a lot of the time, although I still find plenty of slots for training.

If you don't have a good social life whats is there worth defending ;)

[Levo]

Originally posted by Bon


Do you remember his name ?

Ben, he corned Elvis at UFC 38.

[sorry for late reply]

Nathan

[TheStudent]

I know when I was younger I always tried to immitate what I watch on tv. I was always watching some sort of martial arts movies. Like "The 6 Deadly Venoms" etc etc. A lot of older stuff and I still watch things that have come about now. I'm not saying I completely learned from watching these movies but it did give me a little bit of a kick start in things I wanted to do with my life. And it did help me get out of a few fights before. Whatever you can do to better yourself is all good. Self-taught, immitated, or just learned from another. Its all good.

[dom]

hey sean o ok well let me tell you a little somthing about my self ok my art is deshendo wich means to come for above but it is also based onthe number ten it is an art form that i created through various types of ats like kungfu nigitsu capoeira karate taekwondo jujitsu sumbition style wrestling wingchun akido and weaponry, kick boxing ok you see in my family we have diffrent people how took diffrent arts and of corse i hade freind that took difrent arts you watch tv ask you self if that move look s real if so ask youre self if you think you can do it then try it ask your e freind and family member what kind of moves they know try to learn of off them add som street fighting moves that you know allredy buy akick boxing bag and wait s practice the move you know every day for 5 minutes and lift weight just till you fell a burn and stop it should only take 5minute if no add some weight stech about once aweek for a full 15 minutes buy some instuction videos and book follow the steps in them if you don't get somthing ask some one elese don't give up onthe moves then try combos and forms and routines thentry to make them up on your own and look at the siillar type of weapons that you have in your hous or things that you could uses as aweapon and try learnig new moves witht at me i have mastered 20 weapons and i can use just about any thing around me as a weapon it's really not that hard my phillophy lies in between wunhopkundo and brucelee's jetkundo oh yeah go see some martial art shows and watch some pro wrestling even though their move are fake but their based on real moves why you think they have totrain and why they get hert if you try to do this you'll be good maybe some day as good as me trust me it does work let me tell you i never took aclass i was always taught by diffrent pepole even if you know somthing play along act stopped try to steal their moves and combos to use agianst them along with what you know youll beat them with you brain that is actually part of wing chun ok when i was a boy i would get in to all these fights and one day got so good i beat maybe 5 6 diffrent guys and somebod asked me where i learned and what art i had studied wich was none but like all of them so i told them inever took a class they told me i was to good to of learned it on my own that when i started to adapt my style maily to capoeira because no one had heard of it i figured i could learn their move s along with mine of off the the movie only the strong so i did that hell i even gave a speach about capoeira hell i even learned taekwondo fron my causins anmy best freind after ward and i taught themcapoeira i never old them about deshendo or the rest of my studies inthe martial arts i also went to the free style martial arts competion twice and won state i was sopose to go to the nationals one but i never went ohyeah and my father taught me the martialart that they use in the miltary because in tialy they have every one go to the millitary . affter i had learned prety much every thing i thought i could learn i learned one of the most important lessons of mylife i hade almost killed some one becaus he had sold one of my best freinds bag of weed with acid init wich he had no idea they thought it was cool not so cool my freind died i almoust wound up in juvi and for the other kid i never so his face agian but the next time i hade to fight i was so scared i couldn't fight i gues it's because i was affraid of actully killing some one so blame me for having aconcius that is why i no longer compete or fight or do any drugs and why i'm so agianst them but try it youll be good just practice 15 minuntes aday mix up you rutine and try to make aschedule of what you going to do like for instance monday run , tusedaay callasteis wensday strech thursdayweights friday moves,combos saturdayforms routines sunday hit the kickboxing bag and fight the imanginarie person or people prented no im not cazy ok now there realy is no body th at your fighting , play withaction figures se the way you can make them do the move and you try it it works better you have dumby to trugh or beaton or ty the move s and rember for every move the is acounter move if any one ever tlls you there not their fullof it because i can prove it and so did bruce lee when say that ask the ah so yousaying youre better then brucelee. to shut them up but dont ever get int oa fight that you know you cant in and alway expect the unexpeted and alwys know you opponent nad how many their are other wise run. only fight if you have to youtrain to fight today so this way you wont have to tommorow . ok does it sound like your intrested then if you need help tyme back ok bye

[Sean O]

I appreciate the advice, but like I said before, I don't want to be addressed on this thread with any more advice. I've go to a class now anyway.

[Bigfoot]

I was speaking with Jerry Beasley one evening about a similar circumstance. He asked me how I would fair if I played basketball all of the time with an imaginary ball. I could learn all of the rules, I could understand all of the ideas, but what would happen if I played against someone who was used to using a real ball?

I'll let you make your own conclusions.

I will say that training by yourself (with or without a partner) is better than not training at all. "The journey of a 1000 miles starts with a single step."

Sean O...
"Just a reminder (I'm not pissed or anything) that both me and my partner have some MA experience. We both know how to spar safely but effectively."

Be careful Sean O. A BlackBelt is like a High School graduate. They have learned the basics (of MA/education), it is only through experience and more instruction that they begin to really learn. It is first at blackbelt level that people really begin to learn the MA. In school you learn to add and multiply, but when do you learn to use it in life? At the college level. As a blackbelt you are entering your Freshman year at the University of Martial Arts.

You are more or less the equivelant of a third grader ("I was a green belt in karate...") Should a third grader try to learn calculus on his own?

I would have to agree with Levo here. You need someone to guide you. I have seen some good green belts in my day and I have seen some terrible black belts, but I have never seen a green belt that was a master.

Remember some times you get what you pay for. Right now you're paying for nothing.

MA training is expensive, but from the right instructor, is it worth all of the money.

Good luck.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Sean O
I appreciate the advice, but like I said before, I don't want to be addressed on this thread with any more advice. I've go to a class now anyway.

OK folks, Sean's got the message, and is grateful for the advice. By all means discuss the topic, but time has passed since the question was asked!

[Bigfoot]

I'm new to this site. I did not see there where 3 pages. So I apologize for responding to you Sean O.

To Dom
Who are you kidding? Go back to school and learn how to write. Are you just spending a little down time writing rubbish?

[pgm316]

Don't be too harsh on Dom, he went to the trouble of writing nearly 1000 words! :o

Advice Dom, keep the posts a bit shorts. Use bullet points to get the message over instead of long long sentances ;)

[Cain]

And use a bit of full stops and paras ;)

Don't take it THAT seriously Dom, u gave good advice just make things a bit more clear :)

|Cain|

[Bigfoot]

My reply to Dom had nothing to do with the length of his comment. It was regarding the subject matter. I am sure he ment well, but other then telling Sean O. to keep on trying, most of what he said was ludicrous. In my opinion, he embodies nothing of what martial arts stands for. Ie.; "try to steal their moves and combos to use agianst them along with what you know youll beat them...", "stech about once aweek for a full 15 minutes...". Yes this guy knows what he is talking about. It's a good thing he finally realized it was smart to stop doing drugs. "that is why i no longer compete or fight or do any drugs...".

I just don't see why anyone would concider this kid a Martial Artist. - Self taught Guru of more than 10 MA styles and a self professed master of more than 20 weapons - all by age 21!!!

Maybe he is - if all that time away from school (where he should have learned to write) was used to train MA, then I can understand how good he must be.

Just my humble opinion.

[dom]

maybe to you it is ludicriss, but I can wright. What you didn't follow was that I had no real teacher I possed the knowlledge from my father, and other relatives. That had taken other martial arts.
If that is crazy to you maybe I'll have to prove it. That is also why I'm not typing like the way I talk any more to you pumpus jack asses. so good bye.




sincerly, dom

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Bigfoot
To Dom
Who are you kidding? Go back to school and learn how to write. Are you just spending a little down time writing rubbish?

Leave the moderating of thread content to the mods please Bigfoot.

Dom, I suspect you may have been here with another name? Yes?

[Solane]

Dom

All some of use were pointing out is that if you don’t use punctuation it is quite hard to read what you are trying to say easily. You say you type the same way you speak. Well you must have the biggest set of lungs going to say what you did in one go with out stopping for breath.
Also some of your spelling is wrong and we all do it, that is why it is a good idea to write your reply in a word processor so you can check for spelling and grammar then copy and past into the forum.
I am not having a go at you but you must remember that there are a lot of people writing into these forums from around the world who’s first language may not be English. So the clearer everyone writes their replies the easier it is for everyone to understand what they are saying.
Quite a few people use slang terms or abbreviations of words and techniques that they and their friends understand, but can be difficult for other people to understand due to language or different Martial arts.

You say that a lot of your relatives have studied MA’s and past on their teachings to you. I don’t see any problem with that as that is how quite a few MA have been passed down over the years and evolved.
I don’t agree with everything that you have written but I do think you made some good point. Everyone is entitled to his or her views.

I hope you take what I have said as constructive criticism and continue to post in the forums as you can only gain knowledge by sharing views and opinions.

Train Safe

Solane

[Andy Murray]

None of us have perfect grammar, so it is not the place of any member to correct another on this.

I appreciate the good will behind your post Solane, but I'd ask members to stick to the topic of the thread.

If anyone has any concern over the nature of another members reply, then please draw it to the attention of a moderator! Do not address the issue yourself.

Having good spelling and grammar does not make someone a better Martial Artist, and the reverse may even be true!

[Bigfoot]

Very well written Solane. Thank you for your tack. I should have been more sensitive to Dom.

Andy Murry
My comments, however, where not regarding Dom's grammar, but the thoughts and ideas behind them. Is it not in the nature of a forum to be allowed to tell someone you disagree with what they say? The comments I made about his schooling where, though, uncalled for.

I too make grammatical and spelling errors. I also try to be aware of what I do right and wrong.

As a Martial artist, is it not in our nature to pay attention to detail? Not just in our techniques, but in everything we do? I went over the line regarding Dom. Perhaps I had trouble seeing merit in his message because of his lack of attention to detail.

[pgm316]

Best thing would have been to ask Dom to cover a few of the points made in his post in greater detail. To really find out what he has to offer to the debate.........

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Bigfoot


Andy Murray
The comments I made about his schooling were uncalled for.

I too make grammatical and spelling errors. I also try to be aware of what I do right and wrong.

Perhaps I had trouble seeing merit in his message.

This is how we lose members people.

Every lost member, is a lost opportunity, and a lost opinion.

There are people we have deliberately driven off in the past, just as there are those whose posts were initially moronic, and later turned into good members (Freeform :D ).

Leave these decisions to the Moderators please, that's what your 'report this post' button is for.

Don't make me say this again!

[Solane]

Hi all

I have taken what you have said on board Andy.
My god theres another button that I didn't know about. :)
Hopefully I will never have to use it, or have it used on me. :)

Solane

[dom]

Thank you guys for not being so harsh. I also owe sloan abig thanks. I understand what your saying. I don't have any thing else to say here . so goodbye and I'll catch you later.

[Solane]

No worries Dom.
I'm sure someone else would have said the same if I hadn't. It would probably have been one of the moderators though. :)
See you about in the forums.

Solane

[Cougar_v203]

since were on the topic of self taugh MA is it true that you gain more from learning on your own?

[Andy Murray]

No one can do your learning for you, but where does this information come from?

[Cougar_v203]

Experience.

[HKD]

yoda, sounds like Ur bashing triditional MA. just cuz U don't agree with forms and uniforms doesn't mean U don't learn good self defense skills. i have seen some JKD moves that look great on paper. over the years i have learnes every art style or system has this. if it weren't for triditional MA U wouldn't be doing JKD.

HKD

[HKD]

Sean O
a green belt? U R not an experenced martial artist. U were just getting started when U stoped. if someone teaches U how to start a car that doesn't mean Ur an experenced driver. U can't learn from books and videos unless U have a strong bace to work from. who is goin to tell U if Ur not doing something right? there R techniques where it's more than just getting Ur hands in the right places. don't get me wrong there R alot of things U can learn from book and videos but i have been in MA for a long time and i look at books sometimes and i have a hard time figureing out whats going on, so i know Ull have a hard time. good luck

HKD

[dom]

hey I do have to agree with sean O. About the fact that you do need some one to teach you the basics, but you can learn alot more than you think. On your own. There are many difrent learning styles and tecniques you can learn quicker with some one there to teach you. But you'll only learn what they know.

Where on youre own you'll learn only as much as you desire. Although it is more difficult . to learn this way, but it can be done. good luck .

[YODA]

if it weren't for triditional MA U wouldn't be doing JKD.

If it wasn't for the model T Ford I wouldn't be driving my chipped BMW. Doesn't mean we should drive Model T's.

For the record - I wear a uniform sometimes & I do forms - I currently practice 15 :D

[Mark Davies]

I have to agree partly with Yoda. I love patterns (forms), but in my view they're the 'art' side of the martial arts. To me pattern is like a 'dictionary' of techniques, but it's up to you to take that 'dictionary' & make sentences! Forms on their own have nothing to do with self defence. It's up to the student to look at the techniques in their forms & practise them in a realistic environment & make them work. You have to realise though that their are many movements in forms which are there to be pleasing to the eye, & have very little practical use.
Also remember, Filipino martial arts are 'traditional' martial arts, as are the indonesian styles like silat.

We have to look at things without blinkers on in order to evolve, as individual martial artists as well as styles. Half the problem with many 'traditionalists' is that they're still making thesame mistakes tht people were making close to a century ago, even though our knowledge of anatomy, physiology etc has moved on.

I do think that you are seriously limited with what you can learn without an instructor. A good instructor isn't just passing you his knowledge, he's passing you his experiences as well, & often his experience is invaluable. I recently came across a bloke in Northern Scotland who started his own style after getting a purple belt in Karate, a few months of Kung Fu, a bit of Ju Jutsu & a green belt in TKD. He quit TKD because he didn't agree with 'Sound wave motion'???????? He didn't even know how to say 'sine wave motion' let alone understand it. We went along to see his class & it was embarrasing!!!!!!

If you want to found a style, fine, remember all the styles we practise were founded by someone! The thing is that before you can found a 'style' I think you really have to have a deep understanding of your 'mother' martial art or arts. To me that means a long time studying under experienced teachers, & time gaining experience. Not just of Martial Arts, but of life.

Sorry about the length of the post, but it's a subject that I feel very strongly about. Anyone who does devote alot of time training themselves I do respect though, as it shows a great deal of self discipline & determination.

[dom]

"One can not teach what one does not know." I also have to say that the forms of most traditonal art are only a beging point. If you remain on forms. in a street fight you'r moves . Can be pre guessed before you even move no mater how fast or strong you are you've . Already lost. There are also many traditonal MA'S out there where the forms and combos of there teacher's is all they know. It is like saying you learned some cheap tricks. thats why you need to learn not just the forms, but also the moves and counter moves for in actual fight. What good is the art if you can not use it for real self defence.

[ajacxxion]

I'll do it as an experiment then.
I'll go and learn on my own and see how I do....


HHHmmmmmm. Sounds Challenging

[Sean O]

*sigh*

I don't know why I'm having to say this again, I thought I made it clear. Now it's getting to the point where it's pissing me off, since I'm still keeping up with this thread.

NO MORE ADVICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THAT MEANS ALL OF YOU!!!!!!!!!

If I see anyone else direct something at me regarding my previous training, or anything along those lines, I'm deleting this thread.

[Phi Nguyen]

What? Why would you do such a thing? Why???? to destroy a perfectly good thread is a crime against nature!!!

[Jim]

Spoken like a true troll...

[dredleviathan]

Sean,

You know its not compulsory to answer!

[Andy Murray]

OK Sean,
you've asked me to unlock this thread, and it is now open.

You've already said that you have had enough advice on this subject, so why you want the thread reopened I can't imagine.

If I see any 'point scoring' going on, I'll shut the thread down so fast you won't believe it. I might even delete it too!

It's open (for now).

[Sean O]

I wanted it reopened because I could see people enjoying talking about self taugh martial arts. The only reason I exploded was because my pet peeve is when people ignore what I say, especially if it's written multiple times in plain english for everyone to see.

I still like hearing opinions about this kinda thing, but I'm serious. I don't want any more advice! Just keep up the topic.

P.S. Jim, don't call me a troll.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Sean O
The only reason I exploded was because my pet peeve is when people ignore what I say, especially if it's written multiple times in plain english for everyone to see.


This happens to every member Sean, and not just you!

If you look back to the advice on Bench Press you got from Yoda, you'll find you were guilty of the very same thing yourself!

Enjoy the flow of discussion and trust the forum to deal with any 'issues' you may wish to draw to it's attention!

We all need advice. It's great when it is freely given and can be judged on it's own merit?

[Sean O]

I realize that I was probably pretty annoying to everyone in that thread, but with all due respect, it wasn't entirely the same thing.

In that case, I WAS eager for answers there. I only argued/suggested things other than the advice given to me to broaden my understanding of it, and I was thankful for the advice I got.

[Andy Murray]

I understand that Sean, just as you have to allow others the same leeway.

What direction would you like to see this thread take?

Redirect it with some new questions?

[Sean O]

Meh. I have no more questions on self taught martial arts. Until I got pissed (sorry again) this thread was flowing nicely. Maybe pick it up from there?

[Andy Murray]

OK.

You CANNOT teach yourself Martial Arts!

Feel free to disagree!

[hybrid_TKD]

One of the worst things about self training alone is that in most cases you cannot compete in tournaments. Most competitions require your instructor to be a certin degree of black belt. Most of the ones we have been to require the instructor to be 6th Dan or higher. That being said I think competition is a very large part of training.

[pgm316]

I don't want to compete in tournaments. Just a few partners to train and spar with, and hopefully a few people a lot better than me to teach me and push me further. I couldn't do that alone.

[Cain]

OK.
You CANNOT teach yourself Martial Arts!
Feel free to disagree!

Andy,

:p

I agree 100% :D

PS - That's one scary sig you have got there Andy :eek:

If there were a sig of the month or something I'd vote for you :D

|Cain|

[Mark Davies]

Yup, I agree, you need an instructor to show you correct technique, to correct what you're doing & to push you. An instructor is also their to share their experiences with you to boost the learning process. You can't learn good technique from a book or video, as you have no-one there showing YOU what YOU'RE doing wrong.

[hongkongfuey]

Not sure if I agree 100% with this - more like 97.314% ;)

All Martial Arts originated somewhere - some started from nothing, some from other styles. It would be possible to create your own style from nothing, although I think it would take a truly exception individual to do this.

Books and videos are better than learning from scratch, although a good instructor is better than books and videos.

If you meet up and practice against other Martial Artists on a regular basis to put techniques into action then it might be possible to do without formal instruction. I just think it is more difficult to do so.

Again, it depends on what you want to get out of your training - fitness, flexibility, strength, fighting ability, common sense, chi? The first three are easy to get from videos, the last 3 are much more difficult.

[Sean O]

I just realized that after I found a class and took lessons there, I never actually gave my opinion on self taught MA. I don't think you can do it either.

It's perfectly possible to see how a technique is done from a book or a video, but if you practice it alone or with someone who doesn't know the technique either, you could pick up some bad habits without knowing it, which could cost you if you ever had to use it.

[JediMasterChris]

Groovey, what style do you practice?

[Sean O]

Hapkido.

[Sonshu]

I would say you could teach yourself how to fight fairly well by having people to train with - many people do this in MMA and outside clubs, bars etc.

Striking is easier than the grappling type stuff as its less technical and fiddly. No less effective though!

I think the route I had is the best form of self-training..... I went to classes in a style I started with, I swore by it, thought it was the complete all round style, graded up and then moved work wise.

When I moved I went to other schools of different styles, saw many techniques and added them to my list. I still practice the good effective ones and drop the crap un-realistic flashy ones, these only come out when I am drunk and showing off at a party .

I think so long as you have a base that you have been instructed in then you have something to develop. Then you can add, adapt and play with the techniques and this gives you more of a solid base to work from. The important thing is you need the solid base.

Boxing and general kick boxing type styles you can learn and teach yourself by drills & practice. The more you practice the fitter and less likely you are to get hit - hence you improve, might not be graceful but it will work!

SONSHU

[Guitarboy1212]

Hey Vipe i don't think your wierd. I for some reason like to train in open areas with no one to see me also. And to Sean... heres a manual you might like to look into. go to http://ki-central.hypermart.net go to the download section and download Buji ken ki manual. hope that helps

[Guitarboy1212]

I have a question. What is MA and MMA?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Martial Arts and Mixed Martial Arts respectively.


Striking is easier than the grappling type stuff as its less technical and fiddly. No less effective though!

Open to debate, depends on what striking you're doing.