Hapkido/Jujitsu- whats the diffeence?

[Johnbelfast2]

I have watched people on video practising and fighting using Hapkido. I also flicked through a book recently which showed many Hapkido techniques. I recognised everything that they were doing as being the same or very similar to the way jujitsu would do it. Could anyone explain the difference?

[shadow warrior]

The question is far too general to answer. There are far too many varieties, lineages and combinations of both styles to make any meaningfull generalizations..You will have to be much more specific.

Many 'root' techniques found in most Hapkido lineages did come from Diato Ryu..not much in common with say the BJJ approach..

[stratiotes]

I noticed that too yesterday. The only thing, in this book, more kicking/punching was used than is used in JuiJitsu (or at least in the JJ books i've read).

[Thomas]

I would have to say I am not really qualified to answer that. I would recommend looking at this article:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/magazine/styles/hapkido1.htm
which gives a good idea about Hapkido...
and then I would go to the Jujitsu forum and do a search and/or read through there for a bit. (And of course, read through the Hapkido section).

The most that I can say is that there are many versions of each style but in essence they are very different styles. Granted a hybrid style like Combat Hapkido (www.ichf.com) has taken a base of Korean Hapkido and added elements of other styles, like jujitsu... which can lead to a misunderstanding of what the true styles actually are...

[Johnbelfast2]

I looked at the web sites that Thomas suggested and I have to say I still feel that both Jujitsu and Hapkido seem similar. The differences that were talked about in those sites on talked about the long range kicks being the difference and it said that Jujitsu had a weekness at dealing with long range attacks. I dont feel that that is at all true. If an attacker wants to attack from a long range then he is going to take forever to reach his target and by that time I feel that any one could have moved, paryed, blocked or countered in some way.

I would love to learn more about Hapkido but there doesnt seem to be anywhere in Northern Ireland that teaches it.

[SoKKlab]

I looked at the web sites that Thomas suggested and I have to say I still feel that both Jujitsu and Hapkido seem similar. The differences that were talked about in those sites on talked about the long range kicks being the difference and it said that Jujitsu had a weekness at dealing with long range attacks. I dont feel that that is at all true. If an attacker wants to attack from a long range then he is going to take forever to reach his target and by that time I feel that any one could have moved, paryed, blocked or countered in some way.

I would love to learn more about Hapkido but there doesnt seem to be anywhere in Northern Ireland that teaches it.

Having done a bit of both: Hapkido (Wol Ge Kwan and Sin Moo) and Japanese Ju Jitsu, there are many similarities.

Most of the locks, throws, pins etc are the same or very similar, so much so that they suggest a common origin.

The main difference is in terms of attitude and emphasis.

Although they are both 'all-round' martial arts, Hapkido gives equal emphasis (Generalising) to it's Strikes, Kicks etc as it does to its throws and locks.

Whereas Ju Jitsu (Generalising) tends to give more emphasis to its Locks and Throws and tends to use strikes as 'weakeners' and not as a means to an end in themselves.

There is clearly a common history between the two, whether it is via Daito-Ryu (Aiki) Ju Jitsu or????

Also, just to point out that Japanese Ju Jitsu has many ways of nullifying and/ or dealing with Kicking Attacks.

And No, it (Hapkido) is not 2000 years old nor was it invented by Buddhist Wrestling Pigeons...

[shootodog]

there are quite a few references that say that the japanese ma got theirs from the koreans. there are quite a few references that say that the koreans got theirs from the japanese. either way, there have been an exchange of ideas at one point in time or the other.

[Yama Tombo]

What I've read about hapkido and Ju Jitsu sound about the same. I know about BJJ, but not about JJJ or Hapkido.

[tkdhkddave]

Try this link and call Mr Fred Adams who might be able to point you in the direction of a local school, hopefully.

http://www.international-hapkido.co.uk/

[nj_howard]

:cool:

here's a quick $0.02 worth...

the art that choi young sool took back to korea from japan in 1945 was called several names (yawara, yu sul, hapki yu sul, perhaps others) before hapkido stuck.

it is generally accepted that master choi spent roughly 30 years in japan as the house servant of sokaku takeda, the then head of daito ryu aikijujutsu, and that master choi trained in daito ryu under takeda during that time.

we can verify thru at least one current korean hapkido master who trained directly under master choi (master im, or lim, hyun su) that master choi kept his art as faithfully close to daito ryu as he could. master im continues that tradition today. there may be others who do as well.

so, by extension, if you are training in a traditional style of hapkido, it is probable that your techniques are similar to daito ryu techniques.

several of choi's original students, notably master ji han jae, added most of the kicking repertoire to the art. master choi's original art had few kicking techniques, and the kicks were always kept low - never to the head (at least not to the head of a standing attacker).

hope this helps... regards, howard

[John_IHF]

Well GM Choi knew kicks, he studied taekyoung but he kepted the 2 arts seperate. (I don't think that GM Choi did do any of the flashy flying kicks and stuff I think that was all GM Ji Han Jae) No point in kicking the guy in the head when you have him in a lock and more often then not the guy is probably already dead or dismembered ofcourse durring training that isn't going to happen. I've seen a clip where Choi was doing a technique and he went to do a kick but he stopped and shaked his finger saying no. The difference that Hapkido brings is that Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu had little of kick defense and Hapkido brings a wider range of kick defense. But yes Howard you are very correct. Hapkido should be exactly like Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.

[shadow warrior]

Any kicking which GM Choi exhibited was totally Japanese (Karate) in origin. His basic kicking mechanics were VERY similar if not IDENTICAL to the mechanics of GM Bong Soo Han (a direct student). GM Choi's kicking mechanics DID NOT come from Taekkyon which is a Korean folk way of executing what is known as "release" or dynamic kicking and was influenced greatly by the southern Chinese. This style has diversified kicking methods, long, medium and short range, low, middle, high, jumping, spinning, including many types of dynamic kicks to the head. The physical characteristics of executing the kicks are completely different from the Japanese way of kicking!

MANY people were responsible for integrating kicking into various lines of Hapkido beginning in the late 50's through the mid 60's. GM Ji was only ONE of a group of Hapkido practitioners who found the lack of effective kicking in GM Choi's original skill sets to be a problem in self defense training and application during free fighting. Unfortunately over the past twenty years or so, most Hapkido lines have integrated Tae Kwon Do NOT Taekkyon kicking mechanics into their system do to its rarity and the difficulty in learning the method.

Punching (striking in general) is another case in point. GM Ji (among others) introduced aspects of Western boxing techniques in order to develop a more realistic method of defenses against dynamic hand strikes. GM Choi displayed traditional Karate style striking methods.

GM Choi's original name for his style was Yu Sul which IS very similar to DRAJ, but to say that DRAJ is the SAME as most Hapkido practiced today is just not true. Skill sets from DRAJ are part of many Hapkido systems, but there is much more to other lines of Hapkdo than DRAJ.

IMHO

[nj_howard]

Any kicking which GM Choi exhibited was totally Japanese (Karate) in origin.

hmmmm... except for the basic front snap kick and the back kick, the kicks used in jungki hapkido, which is very faithful to master choi's original art, don't look much at all like the karate kicks i'm familiar with. just a couple of examples: heel kick to the leg, striking anywhere below the waist, but usually from the knee down; and "scorpion sting" kick to the side or floating ribs, this unusual kick is kind of like an inside-out roundhouse kick - ball of the kicking foot chambers at the opposite knee, then the lower leg snaps outward (if you're kicking with your R foot, your foot moves from your L to your R); striking surface is the instep.

i don't know enough about drajj to say whether these kicks originated there... does anybody else?

Punching (striking in general) is another case in point. GM Ji (among others) introduced aspects of Western boxing techniques in order to develop a more realistic method of defenses against dynamic hand strikes. GM Choi displayed traditional Karate style striking methods.

again, many of the jungki strikes don't look much like karate - they look more like drajj or even some chinese styles. one clear example of a strike that comes straight from drajj is the single-knuckle strike (known in drajj as nakadaka ipponken) to vital points. juhgki hapkido uses this strike frequently. the sudo strike is another, although that strike is by no means unique to drajj and is, in fact, seen in most karate systems.

other distinctions between jungki and karate strikes are the amount of force of the strike and the delivery of the technique itself. jungki strikes do not really follow the "one strike, one kill" idea that characterizes some karate striking techniques. jungki strikes are more concerned with attacking a vital point or simply creating enough of a diversion to allow the application of a joint technique. the powerful finishing strikes that are often initial techniques in karate are usually used at the end of a controlling technique. also, the formal chambering that you see in karate strikes is not much used in jungki hapkido. the strikes are more natural, much more like western boxing. i'll repeat that i don't know enough about drajj to be able to say whether this comes from drajj, but given that jungki hapkido strives to retain the drajj roots of the art, i'd have to bet that master choi learned these striking techniques in japan.

good discussion...

[shadow warrior]

My point is that GM Choi's striking technique mechanics are indeed Japanese in origin. Dynamic or "release" kicking was only introduced into some lines of the style of Hapkido through the late 50's very early 60's.

As I stated before GM Bong Soo Han's kicking mechanics are Japanese in flavour, as passed to him from GM Choi. Using the quad muscle to lift the leg in preparation for kicking! Front, side, round, ect.

BOTH of my major instructors were DIRECT students of GM Choi. Master Chung Kee Tae, sought out other instructors to develop his striking techniques and Master Hwang In Shik (possibly the greatest Hapkido kicker of his generation) eventually became a student of GM Jae Han Ji in order to dramatically expand his striking skills. These individuals among others, felt that in order to defend against skilled strikers, you were REQUIRED to seek out and develop these options yourself! At the very least, you need these skills in order to train effective defences.

The intoduction of western boxing methods into some lines of Hapkido by GM Jae Han Ji is well documented. His school was next to a boxing gym in Seoul in the early days.

It is only a matter of semantics. DAJJ and Yu Sool were essentially the SAME style. Some Hapkido Kwans are much more "traditional" in the GM Choi sense, but not ALL Hapkido lines stick to this restricted view. Dynamic striking knock down power is not usually found in the practitioners of GM Choi's lineage. Not enough time is devoted to understanding and developing these types of skills. It is similar to the Aikido people in this reguard. They also learn kicks so that they can learn to defend against them. The problem is that their kicking skills are rudementary, not an INTEGRATED part of their free fighting skill sets.

DAJJ and Yu Sool should be considered the same, but should not be extrapolated to include all lines of what is now known as Hapkido.

Hapkido falls into one of five basic camps today. Disreguarding weapons theory!

1 GM Choi traditionalists, unchanged DAJJ. Some instructor even wear the Japanese Kama sometimes.

2 Sin Moo Hapkido. GM Jae Han Ji lineage.

3 Hapkido with dynamic striking, twisiting, throwing ect. Includes some selected aspects of GM Ji's technique lineage as well as other influences such as kicking folk art of Taekkyon.

4 Hapkido using Tae kwon Do style kicking mechanics with joint locks, ect. This is now the most common line! Many Kwans in Korea are included in this line.

5 Anything goes and call it Hapkido. Flavour of the style marketing technique.

IMHO

[nj_howard]

As I stated before GM Bong Soo Han's kicking mechanics are Japanese in flavour, as passed to him from GM Choi. Using the quad muscle to lift the leg in preparation for kicking! Front, side, round, ect.

sorry if i seem obtuse, but i'm confused. i've seen several instructional tapes by bong soo han, and judging from them, his kicking techniques are much closer to the ji han jae school of hapkido (lots of high kicks and spinning kicks - almost like tkd) than to the rudimentary kicks that choi apparently taught... perhaps you're referring to some other aspect of bong soo han's kicking?

It is only a matter of semantics. DAJJ and Yu Sool were essentially the SAME style. Some Hapkido Kwans are much more "traditional" in the GM Choi sense, but not ALL Hapkido lines stick to this restricted view. Dynamic striking knock down power is not usually found in the practitioners of GM Choi's lineage.

all of these points are quite consistent with my experience.

thanks for the ongoing input...

[shadow warrior]

GM Han's kicking does not use the same mechanics as GM Ji in most cases. For example: In executing a heel turning kick (spin kick) GM Han tells his students to imagine their leg as a baseball bat. GM Ji tells his students to relax their leg and use their leg like a willow branch and "whip" the leg using various anotomical components NOT employed in GM Han's way of kicking. This distinction can be made in other kicking techniques.

TWISTING KICK (REVERSE ROUND HOUSE), can not be delivered with tension in the leg if anything close to max power is to be realized.

The stiffness and use of canting beyond natural bend and "snap" are consistent with the Japanese physical methods of kicking. What separates this from Tae Kwon Do is the degree of canting and muscle tension in the leg.

The fact that GM Han has added some kicks after his training with GM Choi does not mean that the origin of this kicking mechanical method is Japanese in root. I have also spend long hours with GM Han and he gives GM Choi the majority of his training credit, including kicking.

FYI, there are other GM's (even other styles) who kick with "release" including Joo Bang Lee and his son (Hwarang Do)! This is another lineage of pure Taekkyon kicking!!

Analysis of kicking mechanics, methods and techniques are not usually considered part of GM Choi's traditional system.

K. STEWART

[shadow warrior]

Small wording correction.
GM Han's did add some kicks after he trained with GM Choi but the mechanics are Japanese in origin.

[nj_howard]

Analysis of kicking mechanics, methods and techniques are not usually considered part of GM Choi's traditional system.

K. STEWART
quite consistent with what you'll see in jungki hapkido. even though the higher-dan korean instructors are excellent kickers, they seem to have learned that from the tkd that is taught in public schools, and not in formal hapkido training. in actual training their kicks are low and very basic.