[Choi Kwang Do] FAO: Andrew Green

[LilBunnyRabbit]

To avoid hijacking the wrist injuries thread any further than I already have (apologies people) I will respond to your post here. I was going to make it a private message, but it was some five thousand characters too long.

Who said it was neccessary to injure each other? Some choose to and they learn more becuase of it. Others take it to the point of discomfort.

Pain is a sign that you are being injured, that's what its there for. If you choose to be macho and ignore it, and turn out to be okay, lucky you. I have seen too many people injured while practicing 'safe' grappling or striking arts to accept that.


Hitting mits can only take you so far. If you want to go further you have to hit at a moving person who is trying to hit you. The level of intensity depends on who's doing it. The harder you go the better you'll be for it, but to hard and you risk long term damage.

Yes, like you say. We just have a different opinion of too hard. We work with focus mitts, and interruption drills where the mitts counter, but only when the students can handle it without being hit repeatedly in the head, body or legs. Our mitt drills are not static, they are dynamic, we move around. The mitt holder switches the targets. We make it as realistic as possible without anyone getting hurt.


That proves that you can knock back someone holding a shield. Not that you can land an effective blow on a real person.

So then the mitts where you can demonstrate that you can land a blow on a small target moving at speed don't prove anything either I suppose? If a kick knocks you back three feet after the shock travels through compressed foam, and its fast enough and accurate enough to hit a focus mitt, you can be fairly sure that it will be effective. At least as sure as you can be rolling around on a mat with someone else trying to grab each other's throats.


Baseball players can hit a ball pretty well. Does that make them expert stickfighters? (and hitting a fast moving ball is a lot harder then a fairly stationary shield)

No, but would you like one of them to whack you with a baseball bat? They're not training to be stickfighters, they're training to hit things hard and fast, and I doubt that if one of them did go for you with a bat and connect that you'd be standing at the end.


Why do you always have to fight someone of the same style? Everyone will have their own style, you just agree to the same rules. Look at any combat sport and you will see different fighters with different styles. The more you allow under those rules the more apparant those differences become.

I'm talking about training in class here, not personal training outside.

pquote]
When you spar you learn to do what works and to avoid getting hit/locked/thrown/etc. You learn to attack at angles which are hard to defend and learn to defend against them as well. If haymaker punches where effective and hard to defend they'd show up in sparring. They aren't and they don't. But you will see things come from a similar angle, just more refined and harder to stop. So if you train regularly with trained people trying to exploit your weaknesses it should give you a significant head start against a untrained person with unrefined technique.
[/quote]
Unlike us who train regularly with people but while targeting our punches at each other wear protective mitts and practise distance control?


If you've never actually been hit, it will likely shock you the first time. This isn't something you want to go through for the first time when it really matters.

Its not something you ever want to go through. There are only two people in any school that I train at regularly who could stop me hitting them if I really wanted to. Now what possible benefit would it be to either me or them if I did? Even if you train with sparring, the first time you get attacked by a random stranger on the street is going to shock you, getting hit won't really make much difference to that shock. Besides, we teach people to dodge and block with their arms rather than their heads.


But to not spar, and to not ever train against each other is a lost cause. You keep lashing out against traditional styles, this is the weakness of many "traditional" styles, a attachment to what they think "should" work without ever doing anything to figure out what "does" work.

We don't spar, we do train against each other. There is a difference. As for lashing out at traditional styles I do not believe that I, or any other Choi student on this board have ever done that in an unjustified manner. If I were to tell you that I was teaching students to throw a punch straight out and lock their arm out as an effective technique, would you correct me, or let me continue to risk my student's health and safety?

Of course their are limits, We can't really allow eyegouges, well we could wear safety goggles, but never really do it for "real". But we can be fairly certain that jamming your fingers into an eye will have a negative effect on that person. But if you can't land a close fisted jab, an eye gouge won't happen either no matter how many times you hit a target with it.

Again, I agree. Which is why we train to be able to land a close-fisted jab.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Pain is a sign that you are being injured, that's what its there for. If you choose to be macho and ignore it, and turn out to be okay, lucky you. I have seen too many people injured while practicing 'safe' grappling or striking arts to accept that.


Oversimplification. There are different levels of pain and pain does not always mean you are injured.



Yes, like you say. We just have a different opinion of too hard. We work with focus mitts, and interruption drills where the mitts counter, but only when the students can handle it without being hit repeatedly in the head, body or legs. Our mitt drills are not static, they are dynamic, we move around. The mitt holder switches the targets. We make it as realistic as possible without anyone getting hurt.


Good, but you're still just punching pads. Why assume that sparring is so dangerous? It doesn't have to be. Most of the serious injuries I've seen have not had anything to do with sparring, they occured doing very "safe" and simple activities. Not just in the martial arts, but everywhere.

Should we not use ladders cause of risk of injury? walk down stairs? Walk outside in the winter? walk anywhere at all? Drive a car?

Martial arts are a physical activity, with that comes an element of risk of injury. Same with any physical activity.



So then the mitts where you can demonstrate that you can land a blow on a small target moving at speed don't prove anything either I suppose? If a kick knocks you back three feet after the shock travels through compressed foam, and its fast enough and accurate enough to hit a focus mitt, you can be fairly sure that it will be effective.


Same as a baseball player.


At least as sure as you can be rolling around on a mat with someone else trying to grab each other's throats.


Please attend a few grappling classes, even just watch a video, do something before telling people what grapplers do without knowing what it is they do.


No, but would you like one of them to whack you with a baseball bat? They're not training to be stickfighters, they're training to hit things hard and fast, and I doubt that if one of them did go for you with a bat and connect that you'd be standing at the end.


But by your own admission that is all that you are doing, training to hit a moving target with some level of force. So does that mean your not training to be a martial artist?

Now here's the question:

Would I rather stickfight a baseball player or a Dog Brother?

hmm...

Is it a trick question?



I'm talking about training in class here, not personal training outside.


So am I.


Unlike us who train regularly with people but while targeting our punches at each other wear protective mitts and practise distance control?


Hold on, it sounds like you're saying you spar with gloves here, but I don't think thats what you meant...



Its not something you ever want to go through. There are only two people in any school that I train at regularly who could stop me hitting them if I really wanted to. Now what possible benefit would it be to either me or them if I did? Even if you train with sparring, the first time you get attacked by a random stranger on the street is going to shock you, getting hit won't really make much difference to that shock. Besides, we teach people to dodge and block with their arms rather than their heads.


Nope, If you fight you get hit. You can't possibly block everything that comes at you.



We don't spar, we do train against each other. There is a difference.


You just have a funny definition of train against each other.


As for lashing out at traditional styles I do not believe that I, or any other Choi student on this board have ever done that in an unjustified manner. If I were to tell you that I was teaching students to throw a punch straight out and lock their arm out as an effective technique, would you correct me, or let me continue to risk my student's health and safety?


Traditional styles do X
X is bad for you
therefore traditional styles are bad for you

Thats about what you do. Problem is 99% of traditional styles don't do X. In many cases you also don't have any evidence that X is in fact bad for you.



Again, I agree. Which is why we train to be able to land a close-fisted jab.

No, you said you don't spar.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Please attend a few grappling classes, even just watch a video, do something before telling people what grapplers do without knowing what it is they do.

I've done six months of jujitsu and a couple of aikido, or are those not grappling classes?


But by your own admission that is all that you are doing, training to hit a moving target with some level of force. So does that mean your not training to be a martial artist?

Your argument was that our training was not effective because we didn't train to hit moving targets with force, now you're admitting that we do, and so for some reason have altered your argument to whether we train to be some indefinable thing called a martial artist.


Hold on, it sounds like you're saying you spar with gloves here, but I don't think thats what you meant...

I've mentioned defense drills before. White belt level, straight lines, target punching, no contact at all, exchange drill.

White belt senior - static blocking of inwards and outwards punches, one person blocks, other person punches.

Yellow belt junior - straight lines, contact blocking, no contact with blows, slow pace, one person attacks, other defends, then switch at command.

Yellow belt senior - free moving, contact blocking, no contact with blows, one person attacks, other defends, then switch at command.

Green belt - one attack three to five counters, defend against the initial attack and counter with three to five techniques, then switch who's attacking. Free moving. Hands up, kiyap control

Purple belt - stopping kicks, partner makes a rushing movement, throw a stopping kick towards them (no contact, don't want broken ribs) and follow up with three to five hand techniques.

Black belt - technically both of the above two, often other things thrown in as well.


Nope, If you fight you get hit. You can't possibly block everything that comes at you.

Hence the dodge. I'll agree you can't avoid everything, but you can avoid enough to counter. In most cases all you need to dodge or block is the initial rush, then you can counter.


You just have a funny definition of train against each other.


Nice that you know this having no idea of how we train.


Traditional styles do X
X is bad for you
therefore traditional styles are bad for you

Thats about what you do. Problem is 99% of traditional styles don't do X. In many cases you also don't have any evidence that X is in fact bad for you.

If its the truth then what's the problem. I'd say actually about 50% of styles do X, and 60-70% do some form of X, judging by the schools I've visited and seen. As for the evidence how about the fact that people who train in that form do often get injuries and problems with their joints?

Locking out - how much evidence do you really need to prove it jars the joint? Its well known that you can get RSI by simple actions like typing, because the joints are jarred repeatedly, so punching and locking out with force will do the same.

Partner stretching - look at any professional dancer or gymnast in their later years, and ask them how their joints are. Many will have problems, partly brought on through overwork, and overstretching.

Sparring - you've got two people trying to hit each other. Throw in a macho beginner desperate to prove themselves and you will get a problem.


No, you said you don't spar.

Taking your baseball analogy. You can learn baseball two ways, jump in when you start and start hitting baseballs, or start slower hitting, say, gently tossed tennis balls until you get the hang of it. Then while you're doing that you have someone watching your swing and checking the biomechanics. Once you've got the hang of that you can move up to hitting faster tennis balls, and then one day you can go and play baseball.

[pgm316]

You’ve both made good points, in reality you’d probably agree on 90% of things. I think what you need is a referee. I’m sure I’m not the person as I cause more arguments than settle them ;)

I’m not sure we’re the traditional x thing is going. I can’t imagine either of you punch by locking joints out, I can’t imagine many styles do that?

Jujitsu as grappling? depends on finding a good club, I’ve been to two and neither had a high standard of groundfighting, I felt like a better groundfighter simply with my knowledge of Judo. Had some good “realistic” sparring though. Starting in a standing position with gloves, which were removed if it went to the ground. As the sparring got realistic I inevitably felt some punches and lost some blood. You might think this unnecessary! But I feel its as much of the learning process as drills etc.

Like you say, the baseball player can hit hard, how would he know he was any good if he didn’t play baseball!? My theory is, its important to learn to play the game, but you must occasionally play it to find out if you can! If your training is working or do you need change. I'm not talking about throwing a macho begginer into the equation, you've got to train and build up to it gradually.

I think a lot of depends on your goals. If you want to become a good fighter you have to train realistically and theres no doubt along the way you will get hurt and definitely feel pain. You’ve just got to be sensible and know your own limitations, or else you will be frequently feeling a lot of excruciating pain and that’s not a good thing. Pain in varying degrees is all part of training realistically, you get used to it and also taking hits without going to pieces, which truly does happen. It should make you more confident, you won’t be as scared if somebody threatens to hurt you! Just remember people playing games like baseball will often feel a lot more pain than we do, and we’re supposed to be the brave ones!

[LilBunnyRabbit]

If you want to become a good fighter you have to train realistically and theres no doubt along the way you will get hurt and definitely feel pain.

I don't want to be a good fighter, I want to learn self-defense, the same goes for my students. If they want to fight they can go to one of the other local classes, we teach them to defend themselves.

Before people say that you can't do that either without some pain, could anyone with that particular objection please explain why our method does work?

[pgm316]

To defend yourself in a fight, I thought you need to be a good fighter.

When you say pain, do you mean you never feel any pain at all!? This would really surprise me, I can understand avoiding injury, but you can feel pain long before that happens.

[TkdWarrior]

>"I don't want to be a good fighter, I want to learn self-defense, the same goes for my students. "
HMMMM. that's rite motivation...
as far as avoiding injuries
look we do lots of sparring in our club without groin protector, without gloves, without shin pads no nothing...
then in around 20 yrs history only 2 or 3 serious enjuiries...that too was mistake from those ppl by themselves...
why? i dunno we normally hav black eyes, some blood from noses,
brusises in shins n forearms ... they don't hurt much... when u know how ur blood taste in ur mouth... it'll add to the strength..u urself try to avoid that...
in sparring we don't allow anyone to go for KILL or any serious injuries, sparring we do basically for lots of practice
<<there r three kinds of sparring in TKD basically
prearranged
-> 3 step->alone or with person,
2 step
n 1 step
then comes
Semi Free goes with rules can be with multiple partners
free->1:1 or 1:2 or 2:2 or more combinatin
sparring is there to promote fighting spirit and courage, to train the eyes to read the opponents tactic as well as manuevers, to test his/her own skills n capability...>>
excerpts from the Encyclopedia of TKD V volume deals with Matsogi(sparring)
if u can not do it in controlled conditions then wat chance u hav got in uncontrolled ones

-TkdWarrior-

[LilBunnyRabbit]

The worst I've ever seen in class is a few bruises (very rarely on anyone other than black belts), and one bloody nose. That's in nine years. I've also heard stories, from parents (with the kids) and students (with the adults) of times they've needed to use it, fortunately few and far between, and its worked. We've never had anyone come in and say that they needed to use it and it failed.

Pain hurts. Its something to avoid.

[TkdWarrior]

look we do lots of sparring in our club without groin protector, without gloves, without shin pads no nothing...

myself or my mates or my teacher can't afford to spend money on anything, we hav only spend time n that's too lots of it...
n one thing more...
ppl who hav created those aspects of MA why u r avoiding them??
let's say if someone wants to learn some aspects which u hav hacked away wouldn't be that sad situation for a student?
yup he can learn from somewhere else...but after learning from u, his thinking would be rigid...
my equation is that "when done properly, all those things r good, they only help u"
-TkdWarrior-

[pgm316]

People have very different views on training, its interesting to hear peoples various ways and thoughts on it. Really we shouldn't be negative of ways different than out own, theres no wrong way as such, apart from not training at all! ;)

My views are similar to those of Tkdwarrior though. To get the most benefit, I believe its got to be close to what will happen in reality. And that often means pain and a certern risk element involved, unfortunately!

[LilBunnyRabbit]

look we do lots of sparring in our club without groin protector, without gloves, without shin pads no nothing...

So what? I really don't see the relevance here. You spar, and enjoy it, and that's fine. We don't, and we don't get hurt through it, and that's fine.


ppl who hav created those aspects of MA why u r avoiding them??

Because we advocate learning to defend yourself without injury, that's why.


let's say if someone wants to learn some aspects which u hav hacked away wouldn't be that sad situation for a student?

If they want to learn something we don't teach they can go somewhere else. Would you go to a grappling club expecting to be taught how to strike, or a Sport TKD class expecting to learn to grapple and do low sweeps and low kicks? When someone comes to watch our class we explain what we do, the non-injury, non-competition, practical street self defense aspects. They know what they're getting into. And like I said, it works, what more do you need, unless you're going to deliberately go out and try to fight skilled opponents (say in competition) all you need is to be capable of defending yourself on the street. That's what we teach.


yup he can learn from somewhere else...but after learning from u, his thinking would be rigid...

I have never, ever have a student say that they want to spar. We just don't get that type of student. We get the people who want to learn to defend themselves without suffering more pain in the class than they would outside.


my equation is that "when done properly, all those things r good, they only help u"

Maybe. But when done badly, all things hurt and hinder you.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by ckdstudent

I've done six months of jujitsu and a couple of aikido, or are those not grappling classes?


Grappling at some level yes. But this was about ground grappling, aikido does not do this at all and many Jujitsu classes don't either.

Same as saying you know something about striking because you attended a few boxing classes. If the discussion is on kicks, elbows, knees and headbutts it may not apply.

But before I guess at what you did, How much time did you spend rolling around on the floor with a opponent trying to positionally dominate and/or submit you while you did the same?


Your argument was that our training was not effective because we didn't train to hit moving targets with force, now you're admitting that we do, and so for some reason have altered your argument to whether we train to be some indefinable thing called a martial artist.


No, I said you don't train to hit moving people.

[/B][/QUOTE]
I've mentioned defense drills before. White belt level, straight lines, target punching, no contact at all, exchange drill.

Purple belt - stopping kicks, partner makes a rushing movement, throw a stopping kick towards them (no contact, don't want broken ribs) and follow up with three to five hand techniques.
[/B][/QUOTE]

sounds like basic one step sparring with overly telegraphed motions "makes a rushing movement". I have never had any broken ribs, and I've taken many kicks to them. A few people I've trained with have gotten them thoughm but its very rare. And I think they where all done in competition, maybe once where they got rebroke in a class.


Hence the dodge. I'll agree you can't avoid everything, but you can avoid enough to counter. In most cases all you need to dodge or block is the initial rush, then you can counter.


No, you can't make this claim without actually trying to do it. This is done through sparring and I'd bet that everyone that spars regularly won't make this claim. In a fight, you will get hit.

Attackers don't throw their own strike then stop and wait while you proceed to throw your 3-5 counters.


Nice that you know this having no idea of how we train.


Training against someone = some form of sparring.

You're trying to hit me, I'm trying to hit you.
You're trying to get a better position, I'm trying to get a better position.
You're trying to make me tap, I'm trying to make you tap.


If its the truth then what's the problem. I'd say actually about 50% of styles do X, and 60-70% do some form of X, judging by the schools I've visited and seen. As for the evidence how about the fact that people who train in that form do often get injuries and problems with their joints?


How many different schools and styles are you knowledgable about enough to make that judgement? How many different styles can you think of that do these things?


Locking out - how much evidence do you really need to prove it jars the joint? Its well known that you can get RSI by simple actions like typing, because the joints are jarred repeatedly, so punching and locking out with force will do the same.


Very few do this.



Partner stretching - look at any professional dancer or gymnast in their later years, and ask them how their joints are. Many will have problems, partly brought on through overwork, and overstretching.


Same for any professsional athlete in any sport, should we just avoid athletics all together?


Sparring - you've got two people trying to hit each other. Throw in a macho beginner desperate to prove themselves and you will get a problem.


How much experience do you have sparring? Under what rules? Points/continuous?



Taking your baseball analogy. You can learn baseball two ways, jump in when you start and start hitting baseballs, or start slower hitting, say, gently tossed tennis balls until you get the hang of it. Then while you're doing that you have someone watching your swing and checking the biomechanics. Once you've got the hang of that you can move up to hitting faster tennis balls, and then one day you can go and play baseball.

But having a hard ball thrown towards you at high speeds is dangerous... and then hitting it back towards them at even haster speeds...?

Baseball players aren't baseball players until they actually play baseball.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Because we advocate learning to defend yourself without injury, that's why.


Let me try once again to show you what I disagree with and why...

Here's a new program I'm developing ;)

Learn to play hockey without Injury!

We don't shoot pucks around, people could get hurt.

We don't allow people to try and steal the puck, could get hit by a stick.

We don't allow checking, MY GOD!!! thats hitting each other!!!

But we do some handing drills, some slow passes with a nerf puck and we shoot at targets, instead of a net with a goalie (He just gets hurt...)

But if you are ever forced into a hockey game these skills will definately give you an edge.

Which they will, having these skills is certainely better then nothing. But the game isn't there.

Trying to use these sort of arguments to convince people to switch to my "safe" version might work on a few people that really don't have a clue what hockey is about. But anyone that has played the game will see that something has gone terribly wrong.

There is nothing wrong with it really, some people might want that sort of training. The problem is when it tries to promote itself as "playing hockey" instead of "doing some hockey related drills for fun and fitness"

Same as tossing a football around, its fine to do, its fun, but its not football. To advertise it as such and have people think they are actually learning football would be deceptive.

Now what you do may be related to fighting, and beneficial to you should you ever end up in a fight. But it is incomplete.

Now you have expressed openly dislike for "traditional" schools of thought in the martial arts. I really don't see how CKD is not a traditional school, except that traditional schools almost always spar in at least some form.

[TkdWarrior]

Originally posted by ckdstudent

So what? I really don't see the relevance here. You spar, and enjoy it, and that's fine. We don't, and we don't get hurt through it, and that's fine.

yup i gave u why we don't use gaurds n protectors...

Because we advocate learning to defend yourself without injury, that's why.
yup i hav taught couple of ppl defending themselves n none of them got into injury... but one should know how punch hurts cause even a simple tap on nose can bring down tears in ur eyes


If they want to learn something we don't teach they can go somewhere else. Would you go to a grappling club expecting to be taught how to strike, or a Sport TKD class expecting to learn to grapple and do low sweeps and low kicks? When someone comes to watch our class we explain what we do, the non-injury, non-competition, practical street self defense aspects. They know what they're getting into.
ok cool, in basically our class we hav drawn a good line b/w SD n Sport, our student(i mean my teachers) hav faired well in Competitions n saved themselves in street(including me)
we say we teach TKD that's wat we teach, complete TKD be it sport n SD point of view, our students can easily take on grapplers too(at least they r hard to put down)


I have never, ever have a student say that they want to spar. We just don't get that type of student. We get the people who want to learn to defend themselves without suffering more pain in the class than they would outside.

i can guess cuz u teach Self Defence...it's ok with me...

Maybe. But when done badly, all things hurt and hinder you. [/B]
that wat i m saying we teach them wat's wrong n wat's rite way to do it... yup i know that it hurts, we too try to avoid that...

one one question which is bugging me ...when CKD teaches only Self Defense then why there is need to hav belts??
one who can do all those techniques/drill effectively
who knows the in n out of techniques..who knows wat goes in mind while fighting can be a teacher...

PS:i teach self defence n that course is about 6 months, which includes mind conditioning(giving rite ideas) with little or less body conditioning...
-TkdWarrior-

[Mike Flanagan]

Sorry to butt in on your discussion chaps but I wanted to make a couple of comments and ask a question.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Pain is a sign that you are being injured, that's what its there for. If you choose to be macho and ignore it, and turn out to be okay, lucky you.


That's a rather simplistic view in my opinion. Let's refine it a bit. Pain can be a signal that injury is occuring. It can be also be a signal that you are in danger of injury, before the actual injury occurs.

Typically injury is accompanied by pain. However, injury can occur in the absence of pain (eg. with overuse injuries). Also, pain can occur in the absence of injury (eg. neuro/psychological conditions). I can and do regularly cause pain to my students by seizing or pressing on major nerves. As long as this is not done too often (hence becoming an overuse injury) then no permanent damage is done, but the pain can be intense.

Pain is a feature of everyday life, that's how often we damage our tissues, we get accidental scrapes, bumps, burns, cuts, noxious substances into our airways, eyes, etc. Happily though, our bodies have a great capacity for self-repair.

Martial arts by definition are contact activities (or at least they should be). So just as in normal everyday life there will be bumps and scrapes that are well within the body's ability to self-repair. If we go beyond the body's ability to do this, then that's clearly not a good thing. Nobody wants to have permanent and debilitating injuries. But bruises and knocks will repair themselves.

I know you're not fond of grappling and the pain that goes with it, but what about the pain of impact techniques? The compression that your own joints receive when you strike something? Is there no discomfort there, even if only relatively minor?



I have seen too many people injured while practicing 'safe' grappling or striking arts to accept that.


Given that you confess to only 6 months study in martial arts other than CKD, where exactly have you seen all of these injured people?


We work with focus mitts, and interruption drills where the mitts counter, but only when the students can handle it without being hit repeatedly in the head, body or legs. Our mitt drills are not static, they are dynamic, we move around. The mitt holder switches the targets. We make it as realistic as possible without anyone getting hurt.


This is the bit that's not clear to me. Are you saying that in your art/club you avoid the normal knocks and scrapes that go with martial training? Nobody gets the occasional accidental knock to the face? Nobody gets a slightly over-zealous punch to the body? Nobody gets the odd accidental slap to the testicles that leaves them struggling for breath?


Even if you train with sparring, the first time you get attacked by a random stranger on the street is going to shock you, getting hit won't really make much difference to that shock. Besides, we teach people to dodge and block with their arms rather than their heads.


Do you really believe that? Yes, sudden (or even not so sudden) violent assault is very shocking. But being struck in the head (or wherever) is also very shocking, dramatically compounding the effect of the assault. I've observed that there are 2 types of people in this regard - a minority who ignore the pain and shock, and just deal with the assault, and the majority who, as soon as they are hit, want to curl up into a ball and cry for their mam.

Have you ever been clipped on the nose? It makes you cry. It becomes more difficult to see. Your first reaction is to wipe the tears from your eyes. That's the wrong reaction! The right one is to ignore it and carry on regardless. You have to be able to ignore pain and discomfort and just get on with the job in hand. Now how do you learn to do this? You de-sensitise yourself to the pain and discomfort by experiencing it in small doses in training. Nothing beyond the body's ability to repair itself of course, but enough to know you can tolerate and ignore the pain. That way you turn out students whose first reaction when they get hit is to present an attitude of "is that the best you've got?" rather than cracking at the first sign of stress.

I know which sort of student I'd rather have, and I'd feel as though I had failed as a teacher if they did not, in time, develop this martial spirit.

Mike

[TkdWarrior]

>>Pain is a feature of everyday life, that's how often we damage our tissues, we get accidental scrapes, bumps, burns, cuts, noxious substances into our airways, eyes, etc. Happily though, our bodies have a great capacity for self-repair.

that's more like the definition i like...
hey mike i c u r agreeing wiht my nose tap thing...
-TkdWarrior-

[LilBunnyRabbit]

But before I guess at what you did, How much time did you spend rolling around on the floor with a opponent trying to positionally dominate and/or submit you while you did the same?

The jujitsu class was almost entirely groundwork, we did one lesson on stand-up and breakfalls. The aikido on the other hand covered no groundwork, purely breakfalls. I'm not saying this is typical, but this is what I trained in.


sounds like basic one step sparring with overly telegraphed motions "makes a rushing movement". I have never had any broken ribs, and I've taken many kicks to them. A few people I've trained with have gotten them thoughm but its very rare. And I think they where all done in competition, maybe once where they got rebroke in a class.

I notice you ignore the other defense drills, or just don't want to comment on them, fair enough.

We don't train to pull our techniques in defense drills, only throw fewer of them while training with someone junior. So all the techniques we practice are at full power. With that, if they connected, there would be broken ribs and injury.


No, you can't make this claim without actually trying to do it. This is done through sparring and I'd bet that everyone that spars regularly won't make this claim. In a fight, you will get hit.

Attackers don't throw their own strike then stop and wait while you proceed to throw your 3-5 counters.


I've tried it on the street, as well as in slip drills in class. Maybe I should redefine what we do as one-sided sparring, one person attacking, other person defending and looking for potential openings, but not countering.


How many different schools and styles are you knowledgable about enough to make that judgement? How many different styles can you think of that do these things?


Out of the schools I've visited the ones that do this include four Tae Kwon Do schools, four Karate schools, one American kickboxing school and one Kung Fu school (which puzzled me somewhat, since I've always thought of Kung Fu as being smooth and flowing, bad teacher I guess). This makes up most of the schools in my local area, as well as a few in other areas. It may just be that I'm in an area with bad teachers for these arts, but this is why I make my claims.

Interestingly we've just had another student defect to Choi, a black belt in TKD who's injured himself practicing the TKD techniques and partner stretching. We had a third dan in Kung Fu (I forget which style, I'll ask) defect a while ago. I know that this isn't conclusive proof, but its some evidence.


Very few do this.

As I've said above, most of the ones I've seen do this. It may well just be coincidence, but it should also go to explain why I have the opinion I do.


Same for any professsional athlete in any sport, should we just avoid athletics all together?

Not a bad idea. I highlighted dancing and gymnastics since they're traditionally the most damaging, in other sports people tend to quit simply because they're usually past their physical prime and can no longer compete with those younger and fitter.

Only a little. We used to grapple at the jujitsu class as a form of sparring starting from a grip. While I was doing TKD sparring was done in most classes for about ten minutes in continuous, and once every fortnight as a contest in point sparring. I have had people try to hit me on the street though, but I guess that isn't sparring.

[quote]
But having a hard ball thrown towards you at high speeds is dangerous... and then hitting it back towards them at even haster speeds...?

Baseball players aren't baseball players until they actually play baseball.

You can gather all the skills to play baseball before you actually play it. Actually playing it is the best way to practise, but it is dangerous. You can get enough skill to play in an amateur or semi-pro game without playing the game, you just won't be playing in the professional games for a while.


Learn to play hockey without Injury!

We don't shoot pucks around, people could get hurt.

We don't allow people to try and steal the puck, could get hit by a stick.

We don't allow checking, MY GOD!!! thats hitting each other!!!

But we do some handing drills, some slow passes with a nerf puck and we shoot at targets, instead of a net with a goalie (He just gets hurt...)

But if you are ever forced into a hockey game these skills will definately give you an edge.

Close, but let me make a few alterations to your program.

We don't shoot pucks at each other, but we do have a variety of targets both moving and stationary for you to practise on

We don't allow people to steal the puck at full speed, until you're ready to handle it, and we have the sticks wrapped in foam and get you to wear padding.

We allow checking, but we'll give you big foam pads to practise with.

We do a lot of handling drills, some very fast passes with a nerf puck, and we shoot accurately at targets.


Now what you do may be related to fighting, and beneficial to you should you ever end up in a fight. But it is incomplete.

All we need is for it to work, which it does.


I really don't see how CKD is not a traditional school, except that traditional schools almost always spar in at least some form.

To start with it has a dynamic syllabus which is constantly being tested and improved. We don't compete which a lot of traditional styles do. We don't spar. And we're only about sixteen years old.


ok cool, in basically our class we hav drawn a good line b/w SD n Sport, our student(i mean my teachers) hav faired well in Competitions n saved themselves in street(including me)
we say we teach TKD that's wat we teach, complete TKD be it sport n SD point of view, our students can easily take on grapplers too(at least they r hard to put down)

We don't teach sport, only self-defense. Well, until you get to high levels when we teach flashy impressive stuff, but no sport.


one one question which is bugging me ...when CKD teaches only Self Defense then why there is need to hav belts??
one who can do all those techniques/drill effectively
who knows the in n out of techniques..who knows wat goes in mind while fighting can be a teacher...

Because the belts signify how much of the syllabus you know, how long you've spent training in the art, how capable you are. They're also what people expect from a martial art, and lets be honest, there are very few people, particularly entering martial arts, who don't want something physical and colourful to show for their work. I admire those who do, but it doesn't stop me being proud that I was able to earn my belt.


PS:i teach self defence n that course is about 6 months, which includes mind conditioning(giving rite ideas) with little or less body conditioning...

We give someone three blocks, two punches and two kicks to put in their toolbox in the first two months. When they grade they get more tools to add, and more, and more, and so on. Yes they'll probably only use their front kicks and inwards punches, but if they know the others then they've got the option of using them. Also the longer you train the more reactive your techniques will be, and the better you'll become.


Martial arts by definition are contact activities (or at least they should be).

Why? I can understand your viewpoint, but I don't see why they should be. At least I don't see why they should be in the sense that you're talking about.


The compression that your own joints receive when you strike something? Is there no discomfort there, even if only relatively minor?

I don't know how you're punching so I can't comment on that, however I, nor anyone else, has ever complained of discomfort when performing their techniques. This is either a justification of the way that we perform our techniques, or its just something that no one has ever noticed in CKD.


Given that you confess to only 6 months study in martial arts other than CKD, where exactly have you seen all of these injured people?

I confessed to six months in jujitsu. If you want the full total then there's another eight months in TKD, eight in karate, one in kung fu, one in tai chi, and two in aikido.

In that time I saw one dislocated knee, one dislocated shoulder, two cases of broken ribs, three broken noses, one damaged achilles tendon and three concussions.


This is the bit that's not clear to me. Are you saying that in your art/club you avoid the normal knocks and scrapes that go with martial training? Nobody gets the occasional accidental knock to the face? Nobody gets a slightly over-zealous punch to the body? Nobody gets the odd accidental slap to the testicles that leaves them struggling for breath?

In nine years I have seen two bloody noses (people missing the mitts and the holders holding them too close) and one broken foot (hardly counts, someone practicing a jumping kick, leapt up, and for some reason decided to land on the side of their foot, which naturally caused more than a little damage, best bit was he was one of the senior instructors.)


Have you ever been clipped on the nose? It makes you cry. It becomes more difficult to see.

Yes. I've also been hit round the face with a chain, kicked in the groin, and punched in the stomach. It may be that I'm one of the minority who just carry on regardless, but I've never really thought of it being that.


I know which sort of student I'd rather have, and I'd feel as though I had failed as a teacher if they did not, in time, develop this martial spirit.

Fair point. I have to say that despite not actually hitting them, our students do develop this attitude. I've seen some of them when they have been hit (outside class), and they've simply worked through. Maybe those students are exceptional, or maybe there's a large factor of confidence in carrying on through when you get attacked, or maybe they've been attacked before, could be anything, but I've seen it happen.

[TkdWarrior]

feel my ignorance guys wat's concussions??i know this is not rite thread still...
ok Ckdstudent i guess belt thing is good, but when u teach Self Defense(street defense) i guess u don't hav to spent something like ur life on that... u can learn basic punches(jab,roundhouse, hook), basic blockes(mostly reflecting), three kicks(low ones like side kick, front snap kick n i dunno the name of third in English :p)
stepping movements, wiht some grapplin n groundwork, u don't need more, may be u can add some realistic weapon training(short stick n knife) i guess most ppl doesn't need to put into advance training(except who want to learn n teach)...
i go with this quote "dont' be afraid of the one who knows 1000 techniques but hav done 1 time, but be afraid of those who knows 1 tech n hav done it 1000 times"
i prefer is this way...simplistic approach to self defense... no flashy stuff, no extra movements, straight down to earth approach...
-TkdWarrior-

[Andy Murray]

Ah, a good old bit of friendly banter!!!

Carry on guys.

(Puts his feet up and cracks open a bottle of Scotch, while toasting marshmallows and humming tunelessly)

[LilBunnyRabbit]

We could easily teach the basic self defense stuff in a few months, at the most. However CKD is still a martial art in other senses, its merely one designed for self-defense and based on biomechanical principles. If people want to learn basic self defense then they only need to spend between two to four months in Choi, and yet many people devote years of their lives to it, improving themselves beyond simple self-defense. Same as any other martial art.

As for the 1000 to 1 technique thing, we spend two months on three blocks, two punches and two kicks (counting front and rear versions as seperate punches and kicks). After each grading (minimum time between gradings is two months, usually takes longer) people are then taught one more kick, and one more punch. Their drills are advanced further, and their training becomes slightly harder.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by ckdstudent

I notice you ignore the other defense drills, or just don't want to comment on them, fair enough.


No, they where all basically the same, I just picked one which clearly illustrated the point.


We don't train to pull our techniques in defense drills, only throw fewer of them while training with someone junior. So all the techniques we practice are at full power. With that, if they connected, there would be broken ribs and injury.


Without ever connecting how do you know this? Shouldn't all full contact fighters suffer from broken ribs after every training session then?


Out of the schools I've visited the ones that do this include four Tae Kwon Do schools, four Karate schools, one American kickboxing school and one Kung Fu school (which puzzled me somewhat, since I've always thought of Kung Fu as being smooth and flowing, bad teacher I guess). This makes up most of the schools in my local area, as well as a few in other areas. It may just be that I'm in an area with bad teachers for these arts, but this is why I make my claims.


You are confining you're experience to a small area. All the TKD schools might be of the same lineage, same for the karate ones. American kickboxing is not a traditional style by your definitions.

Even with different lineages, competing in the same tournaments will lead to developing similar techniques and ways of doing forms competition.

The Kung Fu school I'll refer to later.


Interestingly we've just had another student defect to Choi, a black belt in TKD who's injured himself practicing the TKD techniques and partner stretching. We had a third dan in Kung Fu (I forget which style, I'll ask) defect a while ago. I know that this isn't conclusive proof, but its some evidence.


Same one you've been to? 3rd dan?

So this is a Chinese school using a Japanese ranking system? Right there something should register as odd.


As I've said above, most of the ones I've seen do this. It may well just be coincidence, but it should also go to explain why I have the opinion I do.


Or not a coincedence at all, they are confined to a small area and have likely influenced each other over the years.


Only a little. We used to grapple at the jujitsu class as a form of sparring starting from a grip. While I was doing TKD sparring was done in most classes for about ten minutes in continuous, and once every fortnight as a contest in point sparring. I have had people try to hit me on the street though, but I guess that isn't sparring.


Didn't you say it was mostly groundwork with only one class standing? Do you mean a ground position?


You can gather all the skills to play baseball before you actually play it. Actually playing it is the best way to practise, but it is dangerous. You can get enough skill to play in an amateur or semi-pro game without playing the game, you just won't be playing in the professional games for a while.


I'd rather take the risk and play, as would most people interested in baseball it seems.


Close, but let me make a few alterations to your program.


You're stilll not playing the game. Just doing some drills which relate to it.

Do you think you could train this way, then call up a real team and start telling them they are doing things wrong? Do you think they'd listen to you at all?


To start with it has a dynamic syllabus which is constantly being tested and improved. We don't compete which a lot of traditional styles do. We don't spar. And we're only about sixteen years old.


How is it tested? You don't spar, How can you be sure what you are doing is improving it? Age has nothing to do with it. And there are traditional styles that don't spar.

My new hockey strategies, which I have tested are far superior.

But I have never actually played hockey, or really watched much...

But the NHL will be calling me any day now as a high paid consultant...



We don't teach sport, only self-defense. Well, until you get to high levels when we teach flashy impressive stuff, but no sport.


No, there is too much missing.


Because the belts signify how much of the syllabus you know, how long you've spent training in the art, how capable you are. They're also what people expect from a martial art, and lets be honest, there are very few people, particularly entering martial arts, who don't want something physical and colourful to show for their work. I admire those who do, but it doesn't stop me being proud that I was able to earn my belt.


Perhaps they expect it because they are told to expect it?

Belt Rank is a traditional element, If you're style is "non-traditional" why would it be expected at all? Many styles don't use it, and they survive.

It does do a few things though, which I'd rather not get into here, perhaps another thread sometime.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Andrew Green


The Kung Fu school I'll refer to later.

So this is a Chinese school using a Japanese ranking system? Right there something should register as odd.


Sorry to cut into this thread, just an interesting comment.

I understand your consternation with a Kung Fu school using a belt system, but this is becoming more common in the 'real' world. How times change eh. Even the Fillipinos are at it. The merits/benefits of using such a system have been characterised elsewhere. What's the big deal?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Without ever connecting how do you know this? Shouldn't all full contact fighters suffer from broken ribs after every training session then?

Yes they should.


You are confining you're experience to a small area. All the TKD schools might be of the same lineage, same for the karate ones. American kickboxing is not a traditional style by your definitions.

Even with different lineages, competing in the same tournaments will lead to developing similar techniques and ways of doing forms competition.

The Kung Fu school I'll refer to later.

I see. When you visit a CKD class, then comment on it. At least I've experienced the styles I comment upon to some degree.


Same one you've been to? 3rd dan?

So this is a Chinese school using a Japanese ranking system? Right there something should register as odd.

A style based in Birmingham derived from Lau Gar. All I know about the ranking system is that their belt is black with three stripes, which I'd call third dan.


I'd rather take the risk and play, as would most people interested in baseball it seems.

Less risk of injury in baseball than in martial arts. Would you like to learn fencing by being given a sharp blade and no body-armour on your first lesson?


How is it tested? You don't spar, How can you be sure what you are doing is improving it? Age has nothing to do with it. And there are traditional styles that don't spar.

I'd say the fact that it works on the street is a fairly good test. Measurements of power from techniques is another one, of course, you may prefer other criteria.


No, there is too much missing.

It works on the street, I've not yet come up against a situation which I can't adapt what I know.


Perhaps they expect it because they are told to expect it?

Naturally. I doubt people would expect things because they're told not to expect them.


Belt Rank is a traditional element, If you're style is "non-traditional" why would it be expected at all? Many styles don't use it, and they survive.

Belt rank is strips of coloured cloth showing which level of the syllabus you've reached. In a style where you get taught the whole syllabus at the beginning then no, it wouldn't make sense. Where you teach techniques as people reach new levels though there is some reason to it.

This may not be particularly coherent, but I have just finished a drive down from Scotland, so if anything doesn't make sense please ask for clarification.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Andy Murray


Sorry to cut into this thread, just an interesting comment.

I understand your consternation with a Kung Fu school using a belt system, but this is becoming more common in the 'real' world. How times change eh. Even the Fillipinos are at it. The merits/benefits of using such a system have been characterised elsewhere. What's the big deal?

Actually it was more the word "Dan" that seemed odd. If he'd said 3rd degree black sash it wouldn't have seemed odd.

But "dan" is a Japanese word,in the last post this seems cleared up though, Sounds like he applied the title based on the belt.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Yes they should.


and yet... somehow... they don't...:confused:


I see. When you visit a CKD class, then comment on it. At least I've experienced the styles I comment upon to some degree.


Not really, you comment on "traditional styles" in general.


Less risk of injury in baseball than in martial arts. Would you like to learn fencing by being given a sharp blade and no body-armour on your first lesson?


Statistics please.


I'd say the fact that it works on the street is a fairly good test. Measurements of power from techniques is another one, of course, you may prefer other criteria.



You're right, I'd prefer to do as much testing as possible before hand.

By the way, You said "constantly being tested and improved". How? Without sparring how?

Do you have a special team that goes out and beats up drunks and druggies and then shares their findings with all CKD instructors? Would make sense as that seems to be your criteria for "effectiveness".

[pgm316]

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Less risk of injury in baseball than in martial arts. Would you like to learn fencing by being given a sharp blade and no body-armour on your first lesson?


I don't understand why your so against sparring, unless you really think it so dangerous. ie with your comment of learning to fence by being given sharp blades and no body armour. My answer would be no!, but I would still like to fence, not just practise drills and hope that I could actually fence if somebody suddenly challenged me.

Sparring isn't the way we learn martial arts, its just one way!
And one of the more advanced ways at that, beginners don't spar, there gentily eased into it as there confidence and ability to protect themself grows.

If I did break someones nose or ribs sparring, I'd probably blame myself for sparring too hard with somebody not capable.

I've had a few broken bones, concusion, cuts bruises and lots of pain training, whether sparring or whatever. I'd prefer not to have been injured! But I'd never trade injury free training against what I've learnt during the years of hard training. Training so hard really took me to another level. To be honest I don't really care how other people train.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Not really, you comment on "traditional styles" in general.

Yes, but by traditional I mean those styles that I've seen, as in the ones that do lock out, that do teach hundreds of techniques to white belts and then just hope that eventually they'll get them all right, before they injure themselves, that do pride themselves on doing things exactly the same way as they were done hundreds of years ago (the world changes, and a hundred year old Chinese whisper just isn't going to be the same).


Statistics please.

Don't really see why you need them, nor do I have any. It stands to common sense that you aren't going to get as many injuries in a sport where many of the people at risk wear padding, and you're not trying to hit or tackle one another. I'm not referring to strain injuries and similar here, just ones caused by other people. Baseball isn't martial arts, I really fail to see the relevance of comparing them.


Do you have a special team that goes out and beats up drunks and druggies and then shares their findings with all CKD instructors? Would make sense as that seems to be your criteria for "effectiveness".

No we have a team who analyze the techniques, and look for ways to improve them. They look at the individual techniques, the patterns, combinations, speed drills, shield drills, focus mitt drills, defense drills, infighting, and so on, and come up with new, improved ways to practise, and improve on the ways we've already got as much as they can.


Sparring isn't the way we learn martial arts, its just one way!
And one of the more advanced ways at that, beginners don't spar, there gentily eased into it as there confidence and ability to protect themself grows.

I agree, we don't spar because there's a risk of injury. We do defense drills which are a safer, moderated form of sparring if you look at them that way.

I don't understand why your so against sparring, unless you really think it so dangerous. ie with your comment of learning to fence by being given sharp blades and no body armour. My answer would be no!, but I would still like to fence, not just practise drills and hope that I could actually fence if somebody suddenly challenged me.

I'm not against sparring, I actually enjoy it, I just don't believe that it's necessary in order to learn self-defense.

[Freeform]

Do you have a special team that goes out and beats up drunks and druggies and then shares their findings with all CKD instructors? Would make sense as that seems to be your criteria for "effectiveness".


Andrew, you've just given me an amazing idea!!!!

Colin ;)

[pgm316]

Originally posted by ckdstudent


I agree, we don't spar because there's a risk of injury. We do defense drills which are a safer, moderated form of sparring if you look at them that way.

I'm not against sparring, I actually enjoy it, I just don't believe that it's necessary in order to learn self-defense.



Thats fair enough, if you don't want to risk injury. I've never forced somebody to train in a way they don't feel comfortable.

I enjoy sparring too, plus I feel I get a lot from it. Although I'm sure I could learn martial arts without it, I've no way of knowing how my ability would be effected.

[Mike Flanagan]

RE: Should martial arts involve contact?

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Why? I can understand your viewpoint, but I don't see why they should be. At least I don't see why they should be in the sense that you're talking about.


What I'm saying is to learn to defend yourself against human beings is that you must at some point come into physical contact with human beings, otherwise its all just a nice untestable theory. I didn't say the contact necessarily had to be hard (or soft).


I don't know how you're punching so I can't comment on that, however I, nor anyone else, has ever complained of discomfort when performing their techniques. This is either a justification of the way that we perform our techniques, or its just something that no one has ever noticed in CKD.


Whenever you punch with the front of the knuckles (eg. jab, cross, uppercut, hook or whatever variation on those themes) there must be some compressive force acting on the wrist joint, as a reaction to the impact. I presume you would not disagree with this?

The greater the force of the blow, and the elasticity and inertia of the target, then the greater will be these compressive forces. If enough force is applied then, in my experience, the result will be some mild discomfort in the wrist. This can be moderated to some extent by correct alignment and strong supporting muscles. Further, on anything like a firm target, there will be discomfort of the knuckle joints and surrounding tissues.

The only way I can see to avoid this discomfort is to:
A. not punch very hard, or
B. punch something very soft and elastic, like a big foam pad or, effectively the same, whilst wearing big padded gloves.

Now this is fine for beginners and intermediate grades, but I would respectfully suggest that senior grades should ALSO be practising striking something rather firmer, without gloves, in order to learn how to absorb the reaction of the impact without injury to themselves.

So, like I said, practicing striking must involve some degree of discomfort if you're going to do justice to the idea.

On the other hand, if students always practice against nice soft targets they'll get a rather rude awakening when they try to use their techniques against real aggressors.


I confessed to six months in jujitsu. If you want the full total then there's another eight months in TKD, eight in karate, one in kung fu, one in tai chi, and two in aikido.

In that time I saw one dislocated knee, one dislocated shoulder, two cases of broken ribs, three broken noses, one damaged achilles tendon and three concussions.


That is quite a lot of injuries. I can only contrast it with my experience of seeing very few injuries in various dojo of different disciplines. All I've seen are about 4 cracked ribs and 2 sprained ankles. Unfortunately 3 of the ribs and 1 of the ankles were mine:( So it does seem perhaps that the injury rate does vary from dojo to dojo, area to area. A high injury rate merely indicates that you're training in the wrong dojo and you should find another one, it doesn't really reflect on the art being studied.

Of my 4 injuries, 2 were obtained during sparring, 2 during prearranged practice drills - so it doesn't just happen in sparring.


Yes. I've also been hit round the face with a chain, kicked in the groin, and punched in the stomach. It may be that I'm one of the minority who just carry on regardless, but I've never really thought of it being that.


Maybe you are, but I have seen many fights and scuffles and have drawn the conclusion from this that the majority of people are inadequately prepared to deal with actually being hit. The occasional knock in training, along with exercises designed specifically to test your spirit, will naturally help prepare people for this eventuality.


Fair point. I have to say that despite not actually hitting them, our students do develop this attitude. I've seen some of them when they have been hit (outside class), and they've simply worked through. Maybe those students are exceptional, or maybe there's a large factor of confidence in carrying on through when you get attacked, or maybe they've been attacked before, could be anything, but I've seen it happen.

It sounds like you've seen lots of your students being assaulted outside of the dojo. Could you give us an idea of how many times you've seen this? And were the aggressors determined violent criminals or high-spirited kids?

Thanks,

Mike

[LilBunnyRabbit]

What I'm saying is to learn to defend yourself against human beings is that you must at some point come into physical contact with human beings, otherwise its all just a nice untestable theory. I didn't say the contact necessarily had to be hard (or soft).

But we do come into physical contact, in infighting drills for example, and defense drills. We just don't spar.


Whenever you punch with the front of the knuckles (eg. jab, cross, uppercut, hook or whatever variation on those themes) there must be some compressive force acting on the wrist joint, as a reaction to the impact. I presume you would not disagree with this?

Nope, I wouldn't disagree with this, however I have never seen any injuries due to this, or experienced any myself. We work on a variety of equipment, with young kids starting out on very soft focus mitts (while their bones are still growing) and most people working on ones with a little padding, then fairly solid. We've also got a few that are like hitting solid wood.


It sounds like you've seen lots of your students being assaulted outside of the dojo. Could you give us an idea of how many times you've seen this? And were the aggressors determined violent criminals or high-spirited kids?

I wouldn't say lots, I've seen four incidents. Two of these were bullies attacking the students at school (my old school, I worked there in the library for a while after I left), the other was a friend of mine, who'd had a few personal problems. One of these came to light in a pub, and he was attacked.

The other was when myself and a friend were walking through the town centre, we were attacked by three people (this was when the chain incident occured) one with a chain, one with a bat, and the other without anything obvious. Turned out he had a knife in his pocket, kind of lucky he never got to use it.

So in two cases the aggressors were just vicious bullies, in one it was an average person, and in the last it was a group of criminals.

[amiller127]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
[B]

Oversimplification. There are different levels of pain and pain does not always mean you are injured.



Pain dooesnt always mean your injured. Pain is your body telling you that there is something wrong, that it doesnt like whats happening to it and would you please do something about stopping it...



Originally posted by Andrew Green
[B]
Good, but you're still just punching pads. Why assume that sparring is so dangerous? It doesn't have to be. Most of the serious injuries I've seen have not had anything to do with sparring, they occured doing very "safe" and simple activities. Not just in the martial arts, but everywhere.

Should we not use ladders cause of risk of injury? walk down stairs? Walk outside in the winter? walk anywhere at all? Drive a car?

Martial arts are a physical activity, with that comes an element of risk of injury. Same with any physical activity.



Agreed, but why make it more risky than it needs to be? Tell me, do you wear a seat belt in the car, or a helmet on a motor bike? Why? I mean thikngs in life are risky, why wear a helmet to protect your head?


Originally posted by Andrew Green
[B]
Please attend a few grappling classes, even just watch a video, do something before telling people what grapplers do without knowing what it is they do.



Ok, does Frank Shamrock know what grapplings about? His views, in combat magazine last month on womens self defence (I dont have the article at hand at the moment but i can remember what the gist of his words were)

"Self Defence for women is a load of B**l. There is no way that a women weighing 100 pounds would be able to go toe to toe and fight with a man 175 plus and not get beaten"

In other words, you need to teach women and smaller people to hit, break out of the attack and RUN!!!! Do you want to teach women to try and grapple and wrestle with a man?? NO

CKD is a self defence system for everyone. We are intereste din one thing. If you are attacked, CKD teaches you to minimise the damage done to you by any means. If you can run away, then run away. If you have to hit the person HARD a few times to get away, then we teach you how to hit HARD. If your surprised and grabbed, we teach you how to get out of that situation quickly, and get away form your attacker, not go toe to toe with them and try to beat them sensless. We are not trying to fight a person, but survive a fight and get away asap with the minimum of harm. We dont try to turn on the attacker, and then try to dominate them by staying to fight and trying to wrestle and lock the person.

By grappling, you are effectivly trying to fight and dominate your opponent by locking them or trapping them - Can we agree on that? If so then what you are teaching your women students and smaller students is immeadiatly setting them at a disadvantage if they were to be attacked by a larger guy (Think of Kimo and Royce Gracie in UFC 3... I think. Royce beat the guy, but he is someone who is VERY skilled at grappling, trained a lot for the fight and isnt exactly a 100 pound woman. His skills worked, but it took him such a long time and by the end he was knackered).

Also, if you have a mentality of trying to grapple, 9 times out of 10 your going to end up in the floor - Can we agree on that?

On the floor, you are more vulnerable. There is no way that anyone can say that being on the floor on your back is the best way to defend yourself. Ok, we will now look at the situation of how people are attacked. Where i live, the most fights start in bars and clubs where people (Including you) have usually had too much to drink. I dont know about you Andrew, but when i go out, i go out with a lot of friends - Its called socialising. If i get in a fight with someone and i end up on the floor with someone on top of me, what do you think my friends will do to that person??

Also, for every minute im grappling on the floor with someone, my energy is being used up. I admit, i havent gone to many Judo or Jiu Jitsu classes, but when i have, we have generally done some grappling and usually on the floor. I can punch and kick standing up for a long time, but grappling after a few minutes im completly tired. So if i fight someone, do i really want to grapple or go to the ground?? What i teach my students in CKD is to get out of these situations and release yourself from the attacker asap and then get up and away.

So, i dont think that grappling and groundfighting are the be all and end all of self defence. I also dont think that it is something that is very practical for smaller people to learn to defend themselves. Its fine for me, im 6 foot and 12 stone so im not going to be overwhelmed as easily as someone smaller than me.
I do however, believe that it is ESSENTIAL to teach people some basic techniques to use to get out of being grabbed or to get someone off of them if they have gone to the floor.

Finally, the way i look at it is that the majority of the people who come to any martial arts class in the UK, come to lear to defend themselves. They come because they want me to teach them how NOT to get hurt. If i used your philosophies i would teach them how not to get hurt by...... hurting them???? Can you not see the irony of that?

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by ckdstudent

But we do come into physical contact, in infighting drills for example, and defense drills. We just don't spar.


OK, now you seem to be saying that no-one gets hurt. Does that mean that no-one ever gets accidentally hit in the face, other than the rare dramatic events that you mentioned earlier. What I'm trying to get at is whether you've really minimised the risk of injury so much that it is only very, very rare - which is what you seem to be implying?

The way I see it there is a continuum with no pain and no martial spirit at one end, and bags of spirit and pain at the other. Its up to each individual to determine how much spirit they want and how much pain they are prepared to go through to get it. At one end you've got Tai Chi the way it is most commonly practiced in the UK, ie. no partner work, no impact training, everything done really slowly. There is no pain in this but neither does it do anything to increase martial spirit. At the other end you would have something more like 'celebrity death match' with no holds barred competition. Here the pain would be accompanied by serious, sometimes life-threatening, injury. It would make you very tough, but who wants to endure this high a risk of injury? Veering towards this end of the continuum you would have Thai boxing, followed by boxing and other full-contact activities. Now personally this is too much for me, I don't really want my brain-case rattling around. Most other arts are somewhere between this point and the 'nampy pamby' Tai Chi end of the scale. (by the way, I mean no offence towards Tai Chi, which I practice myself).
So my question is 'where do you see yourself' on this scale? You seem to be saying you're at both ends of the scale simultaneously - no pain but loads of spirit. I personally do not believe this to be possible.


Nope, I wouldn't disagree with this, however I have never seen any injuries due to this, or experienced any myself. We work on a variety of equipment, with young kids starting out on very soft focus mitts (while their bones are still growing) and most people working on ones with a little padding, then fairly solid. We've also got a few that are like hitting solid wood.


And it does not cause you any pain or discomort to hit these 'solid wood' pads?


I wouldn't say lots, I've seen four incidents. Two of these were bullies attacking the students at school (my old school, I worked there in the library for a while after I left), the other was a friend of mine, who'd had a few personal problems. One of these came to light in a pub, and he was attacked.

The other was when myself and a friend were walking through the town centre, we were attacked by three people (this was when the chain incident occured) one with a chain, one with a bat, and the other without anything obvious. Turned out he had a knife in his pocket, kind of lucky he never got to use it.

So in two cases the aggressors were just vicious bullies, in one it was an average person, and in the last it was a group of criminals.

The incident with the chain and the bat sounds rather hair-raising. But 4 incidents does seem a rather small sample size on which to base such firm opinions and conclusions.

Mike

[TkdWarrior]

"At one end you've got Tai Chi the way it is most commonly practiced in the UK, ie. no partner work, no impact training, everything done really slowly. "
really ... the way i practiced would make u thing again :D...
starting from qigong, to form to everything even push hands hurts...sparring...eww...we taiji ppl avoid cuz we can use too many Jin's and that might hurt seriously ;) :p :D
Mike Wat style u practice...i know Yang 24, then doin sun 24...
-TkdWarrior-

[LilBunnyRabbit]

OK, now you seem to be saying that no-one gets hurt. Does that mean that no-one ever gets accidentally hit in the face, other than the rare dramatic events that you mentioned earlier. What I'm trying to get at is whether you've really minimised the risk of injury so much that it is only very, very rare - which is what you seem to be implying?

Other than the incidents I've mentioned, and perhaps one knuckle-burn a year, that's it. We do have injured students coming in, but injured in other activities (dancing, football, that type of thing) rather than Choi. And we do have people occasionally injuring themselves outside class, practicing things they're not really ready for.


And it does not cause you any pain or discomort to hit these 'solid wood' pads?

Not particularly, although I have spent years punching other pads first which may have conditioned me. The last time I noticed pain from punching was when I decided to hit a brick wall, still don't know why, and tore the skin off my knuckles.


The incident with the chain and the bat sounds rather hair-raising. But 4 incidents does seem a rather small sample size on which to base such firm opinions and conclusions.

Those are the ones which I've seen, there are others, but they're essentially anecdotal evidence.

[Terry Matthes]

If i used your philosophies i would teach them how not to get hurt by...... hurting them???? Can you not see the irony of that? I think you should stay away from talking about what his philosphys are until you ask him what they trully are. I can see your point though, which to some might apply. Anyone who has been in a real fight though (where they got hit) would know that pain affects your body in a number of diffrent ways and depending on how you inflict pain on someone (through a punch, kick, lock whatever . .) they will react in diffrent ways. I am still an advocate of pain (not lots but enought to realize how the move feels if applied with more force). Have you ever heard the phrase "Know your enemy"? Well pain is my enemy and I want to know some of his ins and outs before I have to confront him in a fight.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by amiller127


Pain dooesnt always mean your injured. Pain is your body telling you that there is something wrong, that it doesnt like whats happening to it and would you please do something about stopping it...


So your agreeing with me...?


Agreed, but why make it more risky than it needs to be? Tell me, do you wear a seat belt in the car, or a helmet on a motor bike? Why? I mean thikngs in life are risky, why wear a helmet to protect your head?


Did anyone say spar full out all the time without any protective equipment at all?


"Self Defence for women is a load of B**l. There is no way that a women weighing 100 pounds would be able to go toe to toe and fight with a man 175 plus and not get beaten"


Ok...


In other words, you need to teach women and smaller people to hit, break out of the attack and RUN!!!! Do you want to teach women to try and grapple and wrestle with a man?? NO


Do you think she'll be able to hit with suffiecient force against someone twice her size?

But if she's pinned on her back and can slip a triangle on that should be of some benefit shouldn't it?

You're right though, against someone much bigger then you you are at a significant disadvantage. Best to prepare for everything though. But if you where to try to do a women's self defence course do you not think the guard would be a useful tactic? It seems there is a good chance thats where it might end up anyway.


CKD is a self defence system for everyone.

Not me, and quiet a few others it seems. But thats a nice marketing line.


If your surprised and grabbed, we teach you how to get out of that situation quickly,


Didn't you guys say you don't do grappling?


By grappling, you are effectivly trying to fight and dominate your opponent by locking them or trapping them - Can we agree on that?
[B][QUOTE]

Nope, there is a little more to it then that.

[B][QUOTE]
Also, if you have a mentality of trying to grapple, 9 times out of 10 your going to end up in the floor - Can we agree on that?


Does this also apply to the attacker?


On the floor, you are more vulnerable.


Dpends on the situation.


There is no way that anyone can say that being on the floor on your back is the best way to defend yourself.


Of course not, but if it happens shouldn't you know what to do?

How about a mounted position, is that not a good place? ever?


Ok, we will now look at the situation of how people are attacked. Where i live, the most fights start in bars and clubs where people (Including you) have usually had too much to drink. I dont know about you Andrew, but when i go out, i go out with a lot of friends - Its called socialising. If i get in a fight with someone and i end up on the floor with someone on top of me, what do you think my friends will do to that person??


Hey wait, don't you have this argument backwards, they always have friends that will jump in and your always alone, therefore the ground isn't a safe place...:confused:



Also, for every minute im grappling on the floor with someone, my energy is being used up. I admit, i havent gone to many Judo or Jiu Jitsu classes, but when i have, we have generally done some grappling and usually on the floor. I can punch and kick standing up for a long time, but grappling after a few minutes im completly tired. So if i fight someone, do i really want to grapple or go to the ground?? What i teach my students in CKD is to get out of these situations and release yourself from the attacker asap and then get up and away.


No, your just trying to muscle through everyone which tires you out pretty quickly. I'm pretty sue I could spen a lot more time rolling around on the floor then I could going full contact continuous. But you've likely learnt to break away and rest when you fight on your feet, but not on the ground.

Besides, what happened to "break out of the attack and RUN!!!!"



So, i dont think that grappling and groundfighting are the be all and end all of self defence. I also dont think that it is something that is very practical for smaller people to learn to defend themselves.


Who said they where? I come from a karate background, I'm a far better stand up fighter then a ground fighter, but I'm comfortable fighting on the ground as well.


Finally, the way i look at it is that the majority of the people who come to any martial arts class in the UK, come to lear to defend themselves. They come because they want me to teach them how NOT to get hurt. If i used your philosophies i would teach them how not to get hurt by...... hurting them???? Can you not see the irony of that?

Yep thats right, They come in, I tie them to a chair and beat them for a hour and a half for their first 6 months to get them used to pain. Then I add nails to the stick to get them used to getting cut. Then I just move to full contact brass knuckle fighting....

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I think you should stay away from talking about what his philosphys are until you ask him what they trully are. I can see your point though, which to some might apply.

This debate is over that simple point, that our philosophy is to avoid pain as much as possible. If there's an argument with this then the only possibility is that you do not try to prevent pain in order to acclimatize your students to it. Whatever his philosophies truly are, this is the argument he is putting forward, so this is what we should talk about.


So your agreeing with me...?

Fair enough, pain may not mean you're being injured, but it is your body trying to say 'stop whatever you're doing'. D'you stick your hand in the fire in order to become flame-proof?


Did anyone say spar full out all the time without any protective equipment at all?

Since our defense drills are effectively one-sided sparring at later levels with distance control and protective equipment, and you didn't like the idea of these, I think you can see why we might assume that you were talking about full out sparring without equipment.


Do you think she'll be able to hit with suffiecient force against someone twice her size?

Definitely, no argument against it. I've seen ten year old girls capable of hitting with enough force to knock an adult back several feet through a shield. If they're trained correctly.


Not me, and quiet a few others it seems. But thats a nice marketing line.

Two things, try it first, then say whether or not its for you. Secondly by everyone most people generally take it to mean 'the average person' rather than literally everyone. We will train anyone to the best of their ability, regardless of natural talent or ability, and they will be able to defend themselves afterwards, to the best of their potential.


Didn't you guys say you don't do grappling?

Nope, we said we didn't do groundfighting. We do cover HAoV and get-outs.


Nope, there is a little more to it then that.

Such as?


Does this also apply to the attacker?

Depends. If you're going in with a mind to groundfighting, and your opponent is the average attacker then yes, most likely you'll end up on the floor. If you're going in with a mind to hit and run, and your opponent is the average attacker then its unlikely.


Dpends on the situation.

Give me one genuine, real-life situation where you are less vulnerable on the floor.


Of course not, but if it happens shouldn't you know what to do?

How about a mounted position, is that not a good place? ever?

Try and stand up, sweep them off you, hook them off with your legs, knee them in the back, but basically try to get back up.

A mounted position is a safer place, since you can rise, but you're still on the floor, and they may still have friends around. Your only advantage is that you've got one attacker underneath you, who may well still be able to stick a finger into one of your eye sockets.


Hey wait, don't you have this argument backwards, they always have friends that will jump in and your always alone, therefore the ground isn't a safe place...

I believe his point was that people in general have friends who will interfere in a situation like this.


Besides, what happened to "break out of the attack and RUN!!!!"

As he said: "What i teach my students in CKD is to get out of these situations and release yourself from the attacker asap and then get up and away."


Who said they where? I come from a karate background, I'm a far better stand up fighter then a ground fighter, but I'm comfortable fighting on the ground as well.

So does that mean you'll give that a smaller, weaker person is at a distinctive disadvantage in grappling, regardless of training?


Yep thats right, They come in, I tie them to a chair and beat them for a hour and a half for their first 6 months to get them used to pain. Then I add nails to the stick to get them used to getting cut. Then I just move to full contact brass knuckle fighting....

Make up your mind, first you say that your students get hit and suffer pain in order to get them used to it, then you jump on our backs for saying that this is the case. Do students suffer pain in your class or not?

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Make up your mind

It's very simple Jimmy, you can only see extremes.

Either no sparring or full contact death matches.
Either No pain at all or you're being abusive and living in the emergency room.
Either you're doing CKD or your doing everything wrong and hurting yourself doing it.

Yes we get bumped and bruised, no we don't hold death matches.

Getting banged up a little is a part of training. You don't set out with the intention of getting banged up, it just happens as a result of training.



Try and stand up, sweep them off you, hook them off with your legs, knee them in the back, but basically try to get back up.


Yep, that won't work very well... You'll likely just annoy him and get punched more.

I'm sorry Jimmy but you clearly do not understand fighting on the ground at all.

Training in ground fighting will teach you what to do should you find yourself in such a position. It will teach you how to get free, it will teach you to control the position and give you the ability to return to your feet if you want to.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

It's very simple Jimmy, you can only see extremes.

Either no sparring or full contact death matches.
Either No pain at all or you're being abusive and living in the emergency room.
Either you're doing CKD or your doing everything wrong and hurting yourself doing it.

And yet you can only see that we don't spar, and can't see any value in defense drills, focus mitts, shields, hmm, interesting.


Yep, that won't work very well... You'll likely just annoy him and get punched more.

Depends how well trained he is. What do you suggest if someone's mounted on top of you then, out of reach of most of your blows?

[pgm316]

I’ve lost track of this thread, is it about pain or sparring, because its always mentioned like sparring is painful and the only painful part of martial arts!

I think I’ve been hurt more times practising drills. Ones with several punches and blocks practised at full speed are fairly high risk. I’ve been hit enough times with them and yes pain ouch. I don’t understand how you can practise drills realistically and not get hurt, ever. I assume you practise them realistically as if someone is being attacked. But even a set attack should be put in with some intent that will put the defender at potential risk if not done properly. Otherwise you aren’t preparing for a realistic attack!

When I think of sparring I don’t think of pain, sparring covers a wide variety of training. From very slow, totally no risk to near full contact. And I have practised the full range. If you want to avoid pain, the safer sparring is still essential in my opinion. Sparring isn’t just about testing techniques as many people mention! The more important side is learning to instinctively use the right technique against non-prearranged attacks. And likewise using attacks to weaken the opponents attacks etc. This takes a lot of sparring to learn and will never be learnt through drills.

And I’ve also done a lot of grappling even a decent stint at Judo to improve my skills, but I rarely feel safe fighting on the ground. If you want to avoid being on the ground, the best way is to learn to grapple. Plus, grappling isn’t just ground, half of grappling is standing! Anywhere from a simple arm grab. I once put someone on the floor with a grappling move and walked off (I did not run!). I would advise you do more grappling, can tell you haven’t done much from the getting tired comment. That happens using strength instead of technique. Its useful to know how to let your opponent tire themselves out!

[TkdWarrior]

hmm PGM i think i agree with u..about relationship b/w sparring n pain...
one thing about grappling...it's common misconception about grappling styles that they always go to the ground, but from my point of view(from Indian wrestling) grappling deals with on ground as same as for off ground...wat they don't deal with is strike(kickin/punchin) if u r grapplin with grappler then i think there's no chance of wearing out while grappling cause i hav felt that grapplers use all those Taichi classisc(remember 4 ounce theory), more about controlling ur own center n others(without knowing this by grappler cuz most of them r illiterate)
nuff said...
-TkdWarrior-

[LilBunnyRabbit]

We do standup, we don't do groundwork.

As for the intent thing we don't spar, but we do have defense drills, which are trained realistically. The only difference is that we're trying to help each other train more than we are trying to beat the other person, and the drills are one sided, so one person attacks for a while, then change.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
We do standup, we don't do groundwork.

Try telling that to somebody that has just wrestled you to the floor. I'd rather fight standing up, its just a matter of being prepared.


As for the intent thing we don't spar, but we do have defense drills, which are trained realistically. The only difference is that we're trying to help each other train more than we are trying to beat the other person, and the drills are one sided, so one person attacks for a while, then change. [/B]

"Trained realistically" yet you never feel pain, something doesn't add up for me.

Maybe the one side attack drills are more effective than people are giving you credit for. But an attack where you help them instead of trying to beat them doesn't sound like a realisitc attack.

[morphus]

Aahhhhhhhggggggghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This debate is going nowhere - We do spar, in a way (we learn to defend using defence drills, then to learn to attack we use shield/focus mitt drills) we just don't call it sparring cos it's not sparring in the usual way.
Yes we do it different, we do try to do it without pain especially for newcomers but as you get more experience it gets rougher and tougher.
A defence drill is someone continuously attacking you(in a small space,not much room)you then have to deal with it by blocking -angling off, as you get more experience you get to counter attack and then take down the opponent. It's DIFFERENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for pain i've recieved a smack in the mouth on occasion or even a kick to the ribs - .....SH*T HAPPENS, but we try to minimalize it.

In fact i had a kick to the jaw from CKD student when we met and "sparred" for the first time, My fault for not blocking properly...LOL

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior
"At one end you've got Tai Chi the way it is most commonly practiced in the UK, ie. no partner work, no impact training, everything done really slowly. "
really ... the way i practiced would make u thing again :D...
starting from qigong, to form to everything even push hands hurts...sparring...eww...we taiji ppl avoid cuz we can use too many Jin's and that might hurt seriously ;) :p :D
Mike Wat style u practice...i know Yang 24, then doin sun 24...
-TkdWarrior-

Oh I didn't mean to imply that everyone practices Tai Chi like that. I know there are people who practice it as a realistic martial art. But most people in this country practice it as a health exercise only (essentially rather fancy looking qi gong). Then there are a smaller number of people who practice in the same way but delude themselves into thinking they are learning a practical martial art, and then there are an even smaller number who do actually practice it as a functional martial art.

I practice Yang 24 step and Cheng Man Ching. I'm not particularly good at either.

Mike

[amiller127]

No, your just trying to muscle through everyone which tires you out pretty quickly. I'm pretty sure I could spend a lot more time rolling around on the floor then I could going full contact continuous. But you've likely learnt to break away and rest when you fight on your feet, but not on the ground.

Besides, what happened to "break out of the attack and RUN!!!!"



Uh, ok, my point i was trying to make is that if your on the floor in come club, alley, anyhwere really.. You want to get up off of the floor as soon as possible. If someone is on top of you you want to get them off and get away ASAP. In a dojo, you can lie down all night and get technical, not tireing yourself out straight away. In a fight, your struggling against another person, trying to get the advantage over your opponent, and that opponent is struggling against you as well, you loose energy. If your on the floor in a real fight situation, then you want to get up as quickly as possible, not "spend a lot more time rolling around on the floor then I could going full contact continuous"

So yes, in a dojang, if you both want to practice groundwork, its not tiring. When you practice groundwork trying to get the advantage over the other , you tire quickly.



Do you think she'll be able to hit with suffiecient force against someone twice her size?


Yes! I have seen my female students generate an awsome amount of power and speed in their techniques, more than enough to hurt a far bigger person. Also, i was teaching a 6 year old girl how to deal with a stranger grabbing her by the arm and trying to pull her away. She punched me as i had taught her and i wasnt expecting her to make contact... It winded me and i let her hand go. So if a six year old can wind me by hitting me hard, as i taught her, and bare in mind im over 6 foot and weigh 12 stone, then a five foot woman, who has more body weight and reach could hit with sufficient force to hurt someone bigger. (Wouldnt say twice her size, that would mean a guy of 10 foot)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CKD is a self defence system for everyone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Not me, and quiet a few others it seems. But thats a nice marketing line.


Um, ok, you may have decided from what you have read on the guestbook its not for you. But you havent experienced any CKD classes so you are basing your decision, not on what you have seen of the art, but of what you have read and misunderstood... Fine, i have no problem with that.

When i say that its for everyone, i mean that CKD is a practical self defence system that can be used by everyone of any age from 5 to 70+, it doesnt matter on your gender or build, you can learn to effectivly defend yourself.

On the other hand, from your training techniques, i would say taht from what i have read, there are sections of your class where it is only practical for a small sample of the population to use effectivly (male, 15 -40). Im not saying that everything you do isnt going to work for everyone, but some of it is biased towards that sample of people. So i wouldnt say (From what i have read in the messafe board and your web site :-)) that what you teach is 100% suitable for everyone no matter their age, gender or build.

Didn't you guys say you don't do grappling?

I looked at a dictionary definition of grappling at dictionary.com

It lsited grappling as "A struggle or contest in which the participants attempt to clutch or grip each other"

So i dont teach my students how to struggle or grip the other person. I teach them how to get out of these situations using basic, easy to learn techniques.

So, No, i dont "DO" grappling.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the floor, you are more vulnerable.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Dpends on the situation.

OK, so you are telling me that whether you are on the floor with someone on top of you, or even if you are on top of that person on the floor, that you are not more vulnerable to an attack from a 3rd person than you owuld be if you were stood up and MOBILE!!!

There is no situation on the floor, where you are less vulnerable to an attack from a 3rd person. If you believe that, then you have some weird ideas about being safe on the floor.

Of course not, but if it happens shouldn't you know what to do?

How about a mounted position, is that not a good place? ever?

When did i say that you shouldnt know how to get out of situations??? I havent, i have different philosophies on defending myself than you do. I believe that mine are practical for EVERYONE to use, i dont think yours are.

As for mounted position, see the reply above.


Hey wait, don't you have this argument backwards, they always have friends that will jump in and your always alone, therefore the ground isn't a safe place...

When have i ever said that you will always be alone and they will always have friends?? I believe that you always have to bear in mind the fact that a 3rd party can come out of nowhere to attack you and so your defence philosophies should reflect that. Whether you go out alone, with friends, whatever, you have to train and get the mentality that it isnt a competition or boxing match, there is nothing stopping a complete stranger to both of you interfering in some way.

Also, you may start off with your friends, but people do get seperated from their friends from time to time. If im in a club and im drinking, i need to use the bathroom after a while. If someone wants to get me without my friends, thats the best time to do it as i dont want my friends with me in the bathroom. Doesnt mean that someone who wants to attack you cant get a load of people with him and get you then.


Yep thats right, They come in, I tie them to a chair and beat them for a hour and a half for their first 6 months to get them used to pain. Then I add nails to the stick to get them used to getting cut. Then I just move to full contact brass knuckle fighting....

Like your humor, but i dont feel that you have answered my point that your training methods cause your students pain. You admit it yourself in your many posts that "Pain" is good in ways for your students.


Finally, someone said that there are grandmasters who have got to 80 and 90 with training. Maybe they train differntly to the many other instructors in the world. As some people said, there has been misunderstanding by instructors which has lead to techniques being taught in a damaging way. But thats our point. These instructors are ignorant of the damage that thay are causing their students and are STILL teaching them. I was in a Kickboxing class the other day and his students were doing techniques that are going to ruin their knee joints in a few years. The instructor himself has only just some back from an operation on both of his knees. His reason for his knees needing an op? He blames the techniques that he was taught in TKD along with the fatc that as he also does "Cage Fighting" people have had him in locks and kicked him at the knee and its taken its toll.

And another thing to consider with the 80 - 90 year old grandmasters. How much has their lifestyle contributed to their longevity?? If they didnt smoke and eat a typical japanese diet for many years, before all of this processed stuff was adding other toxins to their body, then its hard to compare them to us as we not only cause our body harm with training, but also by our lifestyles.

And just beacause soem people make it to old age with good health, doesnt mean that their training hasnt had a detrimental effect on their overall health. my grandfather lived to 93, and smoked for over 75 years. He didnt die of cancer. doesnt mean that smoking isnt bad for your health though, or that it can reduce your longevity. The same applied to the traditional arts that the Grandmaster pracitce. Hundreds of people get injured through their traditional marital art training. The techniques have caused damage to many peoples joint (Our grandmaster was one until he CHANGED the way he trained) Maybe, the technique got perverted from its original way over the years, but that way has spread around the world and has caused injuries to many people.

Im not, and never have said that every traditional instructor is the same. There are a few people who change the way they teahc to benefit their students and i applaud that. But there are many more who dont and have never changed their training methods from this flawed version.

I hope i have made my point

[pgm316]

Originally posted by amiller127
[B]

Uh, ok, my point i was trying to make is that if your on the floor in come club, alley, anyhwere really.. You want to get up off of the floor as soon as possible. If someone is on top of you you want to get them off and get away ASAP. In a dojo, you can lie down all night and get technical, not tireing yourself out straight away. In a fight, your struggling against another person, trying to get the advantage over your opponent, and that opponent is struggling against you as well, you loose energy. If your on the floor in a real fight situation, then you want to get up as quickly as possible, not "spend a lot more time rolling around on the floor then I could going full contact continuous"

So yes, in a dojang, if you both want to practice groundwork, its not tiring. When you practice groundwork trying to get the advantage over the other , you tire quickly.


Your well and trully missing the point, to get up off the floor you need to spend a long time on it learning to grapple. Regardless of how you actually plan to fight. A good grappler will play with you on the floor as long as they like! They will also get one over on you or get up whenever they please and without tiring quickly.


Um, ok, you may have decided from what you have read on the guestbook its not for you. But you havent experienced any CKD classes so you are basing your decision, not on what you have seen of the art, but of what you have read and misunderstood... Fine, i have no problem with that.


You shouldn't take this as a personal insult or that somebody is condemning what you do. Or even that they misunderstood what you say. No martial art will ever suite everybody or the way they want to train.


When i say that its for everyone, i mean that CKD is a practical self defence system that can be used by everyone of any age from 5 to 70+, it doesnt matter on your gender or build, you can learn to effectivly defend yourself.


Fair enough I can agree with that. I'm assuming if I did CKD I wouldn't be training the same way as 5 year olds or 70+ years olds!? I can't imagine that really pushing me as a martial artist.


On the other hand, from your training techniques, i would say taht from what i have read, there are sections of your class where it is only practical for a small sample of the population to use effectivly (male, 15 -40). Im not saying that everything you do isnt going to work for everyone, but some of it is biased towards that sample of people. So i wouldnt say (From what i have read in the messafe board and your web site :-)) that what you teach is 100% suitable for everyone no matter their age, gender or build.


We're I train it is suitable for 5-70 years like you mention. But it is broken up into classes for people to practice in various ways. Its possible to spar there in classes in a totally non dangerous ways. Although if you choose you can train more realisticaly we're you will frequently feel pain. People often forget there learning to fight, and fighting does hurt. Ok you may class it as self defense, but in my eyes theres a very fine line between the two.


I looked at a dictionary definition of grappling at dictionary.com

It lsited grappling as "A struggle or contest in which the participants attempt to clutch or grip each other"

So i dont teach my students how to struggle or grip the other person. I teach them how to get out of these situations using basic, easy to learn techniques.

So, No, i dont "DO" grappling.


Sorry but basic easy to learn techniques won't work against a decent grappler, trust me I've tried and I've done Judo for many years. Try reading a book on BJJ instead of dictionary.com


OK, so you are telling me that whether you are on the floor with someone on top of you, or even if you are on top of that person on the floor, that you are not more vulnerable to an attack from a 3rd person than you owuld be if you were stood up and MOBILE!!!

There is no situation on the floor, where you are less vulnerable to an attack from a 3rd person. If you believe that, then you have some weird ideas about being safe on the floor.


Being on the floor with someone on top is a very bad situation to be in and could take some good grappling skill to get out of. If your on top you could end it quickly from there. Although fighting on the ground is something I advise against very much, I've seen the consequences of the 3rd person joining in all to often. However ending up on a ground position may happen anyway, and I hope your capable of handling it. For me being safe on the ground is having good grappling abilities to get me back on my feet again.


Like your humor, but i dont feel that you have answered my point that your training methods cause your students pain. You admit it yourself in your many posts that "Pain" is good in ways for your students.


I can only speak from my point of view, our students do occasionally feel pain. The occasional punch that gets through while sparring or drills etc. Probably a lot more frequently while grappling, or how else would you know a lock etc is working?

I believe the body feels pain a long time before damage is done, thats how it protects itself from damage. I have felt a lot more pain grappling, however no noticable damage. I always tap out before that happens. I have had more damage sparring but the less pain. The damage being caused in a more instant way. But thats been the way I've wanted to train, I've learnt a lot and I'm still in one piece :)

I think you worry too much about pain, it is good in the way you get used to it, I've seen people go to pieces after being hit and thye haven't be injured particularly.


Finally, someone said that there are grandmasters who have got to 80 and 90 with training. Maybe they train differntly to the many other instructors in the world. As some people said, there has been misunderstanding by instructors which has lead to techniques being taught in a damaging way. But thats our point. These instructors are ignorant of the damage that thay are causing their students and are STILL teaching them. I was in a Kickboxing class the other day and his students were doing techniques that are going to ruin their knee joints in a few years. The instructor himself has only just some back from an operation on both of his knees. His reason for his knees needing an op? He blames the techniques that he was taught in TKD along with the fatc that as he also does "Cage Fighting" people have had him in locks and kicked him at the knee and its taken its toll.


I agree you have to be sensible in the way you train. I avoid some of the traditional Kung Fu styles we practice because I feel its not good for my knees. Likewise running round in a small gym isn't good for the knees. Other people claim to have no problem. Maybe its just a case of listening to what your body is telling you. Its about having a good all round healthy life style, not about feeling the odd little bit of pain here and there.

[morphus]

pgm - I have a question. You said your classes are divided for people to learn in different ways, i.e some violent , some not so violent.
What are the people in the class that theres "not so much violence" learning? Are they not learning effective self defence?

Is the more violent method way of teaching/learning more effective than the other and if so, why teach the other way?

You already said "because some people want to learn the less violent way"

But WE teach that way, yet we are taking flak for doing it!

hmmmm........................what are we debating then?

[pgm316]

We don't refer to it as a violent night, more an advanced night. For people more skilled or want to train more realistically. Although its not about fighting harder, more about practising more advanced techniques or occasionally it is training in a more realistic way. Often its just a case of doing the same thing the beginners do more realistically. I find when people have been training for years they want there opponent to put attacks in harder to test them because they can cope with it without a great risk of injury. Then yes there is the dreaded sparring were we fight until the opponent is either unconscious or begs for mercy ;) No, actually the sparring is often less dangerous than the drills. Theres different sorts of sparring we do. Some totally non-competitive right up to some we’re you may very well get a couple of bruises. Have you ever played football or for that matter rugby?

Or you could spend a couple of hours doing Tai Chi. Really depends what you want to get out of your training. I’m sure Choi is ideal for many people. I don’t think its for me, or the tai chi. Not to say either doesn’t have its place, same as what I do.

[morphus]

I (personally) agree that sparring doesn't have to be painful or dangerous.
We (CKD) actually have the same mentality - i bet if CKDists met up with the members, i bet you/they/us would find that what we do isn't actually that strange and everybody would understand (each other) a little better.
The knowledge is much the same, just practiced in a different way.