Pressure Points [Archive] - Martial Arts Planet

Ozebob

09-Jun-2002, 01:45 AM

Hi Melanie,

Originally posted by Melanie
There are some larger targets to hit though, the back of the head and neck for a start and of course the inimitable pinch on the inside of the leg kills even the strongest person!

George Dillman first promoted his concept of PP fighting and no blocks in kata after training with Seiyu Oyata of Ryukyu Kempo.
Oyata graded Dillman to 7th Dan in a relatively short period and before long Dillman began teaching seminars and selling tapes and books.

Oyata's students say that Dillman only received a few pieces of the puzzle and hasn't got the big picture. Dillman's supporters say that Dillman had enough to allow him to complete his own research.

In any case, PP striking and manipulationis nothing new. Nearly every Okinawan and Japanese karate adept that has written a book has referenced them but without explanation :( Gichin Funakoshi says it is an advantage to know where to strike to be most effective and describe these as vital points. I prefer the term 'vulnerable points' but it is much of a muchness.

A smaller person can overcome the disadvantage of size by making their strikes count by not just knowing but training in striking to these areas. I don't believe in the combat-value of striking a sequence of points instead preferring to attack the targets that present themselves.. pretty much along the same lines as Rick's group.

What is notmentioned enough is the fact that one needs both mental and physical training to effectively execute techniques. Modern kumite develops a strong and calm mind under pressure and a study of kata application provides the knowledge. However only appropriate physical training will allow an individual to be effective in executing these techniques.

In olden times, the Okinawan students had their own version of kumite, the rules were a little different but they had a sort of non-contact type of pushing hands right through to a full contact no rules type of fight training that was not condoned by their teachers.

Modern karate needs to be taught cmprehensively as all areas interlock or mesh very well. Unfortunately the bunkai enthusiasts decry modern kumite as too much sport and the sport karateka deride the bunkai crowd as karateka that can't fight. The answer is to cover both areas.

Steven Webster does so, and so do I. Our competitors do well in kata and kumite competition and also train extensively in kata application and in our case, kobudo as well. We continue to develop in all areas over time and this makes the training always interesting.

Regards,
Ozebob

Spike

01-Jul-2002, 11:25 PM

So far as my basic introduction to pressure points goes I think that such areas that have to be hit with precision to cause muscle groups to stop working or your lungs to collapse, or whatever else, can only be done by someone who lives up a mountain in Tibet and does nothing but train, eat and sleep. A cruder, hit hard and if you get a pressure point; cool, attitude has to be taken by those who don`t have the time to train 16 hours a day

pesilat

01-Jul-2002, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by Spike
So far as my basic introduction to pressure points goes I think that such areas that have to be hit with precision to cause muscle groups to stop working or your lungs to collapse, or whatever else, can only be done by someone who lives up a mountain in Tibet and does nothing but train, eat and sleep. A cruder, hit hard and if you get a pressure point; cool, attitude has to be taken by those who don`t have the time to train 16 hours a day

I agree ... but the more we train to hit those points the higher our percentage of hitting them becomes. Aiming for them becomes reflexive and our striking, percentage-wise, becomes more effective because we more often connect with the points purely through conditioned reflex.

Mike

Freeform

02-Jul-2002, 12:59 PM

So train for the highest accuracy you can, and when it goes live and the adrenaline screws up your co-ordination, you'll probably just end up hittin them in the general area very hard? Remember, pressure points aren't just a strike thing, they're a push, pinch and gouge thing as well!

Thanx

Darzeka

02-Jul-2002, 05:23 PM

Probably the easiest way to realise the potential of pressure points is to understand what they are doing to the body.

All they are doing is using pain to get a large reaction out of the body.

Have someone stand in front of you and relax. Poke them in the side, just under the ribs. They flinch and bend over right?
Now poke them again and push them on the neck with your other hand in the opposite direction to the other hand (think steering wheel). They fall over.

Put your fingertips to the front of your throat and relax. Push back. Involutarily you will move back.

These are two applications pressure points. All you need to do is test your body and find out what does and doesn't hurt.

What most people think of "pressure points" are those spots that you can tap and cause a person to have the runs for weeks (yes its true). These are just the most violent of these "vulnerable spots" on the body.

When you go to hit someone in the face, what do you aim for? chin? - stunning blow, puts pressure on the brain, cheek? - intense pain, ear? popped ear drum, loss of balance, disorientation.
These all cause a major reaction in the body. Is this not the point of hitting someone?

Just have a think about all those sensitive areas that you don't like being hit in. Kidney, groin, face, neck.
Now think back to when you were a kid. Did you ever pinch anyone? get pinched? well it hurts. Same with a poke. Go for a nice sensitive spot like the back of the knee, armpit, kidney area, neck, jawline.
They all hurt.
Not enough to make you cry (well some will) but still enough to make you distracted for a second. That is all you should need.

Probably the best way to study the movements you can enduce on people is in wrestling. Someone trying to choke you with your GI/shirt and are on top of you? get your fingers under their jaw and push them back. See how long they sit there before trying to stop you.
This way if they do something to you, you can watch for it.

In essence all pressure points are doing is amplyfying whatever effect you are trying to get from the person. They are great for moving people into lock posittions because they are all involuntary reactions.

Oh and why would you loose your focus in a fight situation? I find adrenaline enhances my reflexes and perception and then without time for thought automatic resposes take over.
If you have trouble with this try meditation it helps alot.

pesilat

02-Jul-2002, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by Freeform
So train for the highest accuracy you can, and when it goes live and the adrenaline screws up your co-ordination, you'll probably just end up hittin them in the general area very hard? Remember, pressure points aren't just a strike thing, they're a push, pinch and gouge thing as well!

Thanx

Yup. And your body's conditioned reflexes should be trained to take advantage of this too. The push, pinch, gouge points would be there to be taken advantage of in a grappling situation and your body will reflexively take advantage of them ... if you've trained them.

The more you train your accuracy and the motion, the more likely you are perform them. If you don't train them then there is no chance of hitting them at all (aside from blind luck).

I'd rather hit to the general area than to randomly hit all over the body :)

As far as adrenaline (and the cornucopia of other factors in a fight) screwing up your coordination ... absolutely. But the better trained your accuracy is, the more you increase your odds of hitting it.

We can never reach perfection ... this is an obvious. But, I'll use some random numbers to illustrate this point (these numbers are in no way scientific ... just arbitrary numbers to make a point about something I've experienced).

Technique A has to be done at 80% of perfection to be effective. If I've only trained Technique A to 80% of perfection then, in a fight, when I'm working at less than my 100% due to all of stress, adrenaline, and other factors, then, I won't have a prayer of making it work. If, however, I've trained it to 95% (i.e.: I hit it dead on 95% of the time in training and I train the hell out of it), then I've got a 15% leeway and now I have a chance of pulling it off in a fight.

I've, effectively, turned a fine motor skill into a gross motor skill.

Just like walking. When a toddler first starts walking, it's a "fine motor" skill that the toddler can't to under stress of any kind. As a young child, he's better at it but still has trouble if he gets distracted (i.e.: chewing bubble gum and walking). As an adult, he has done it enough that walking has become a "gross motor" skill. He no longer has to give it any thought. Even if he gets distracted, his body will keep walking (he may walk into an obstacle or something ... but he isn't likely to just tip over by getting distracted).

If we train anything enough, it can be useful in a real fight. If we don't train it then it never will be.

All any of our training does is increase the odds of doing it right when the chips are down. The only guarantee in a fight is that there *are* no guarantees.

Mike

Spike

02-Jul-2002, 10:52 PM

quote:

So train for the highest accuracy you can, and when it goes live and the adrenaline screws up your co-ordination, you'll probably just end up hittin them in the general area very hard? Remember, pressure points aren't just a strike thing, they're a push, pinch and gouge thing as well!

Why am I not surprised it was you who mentioned "gouging"

Freeform

04-Jul-2002, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Dazeka

Oh and why would you loose your focus in a fight situation? I find adrenaline
enhances my reflexes and perception and then without time for thought
automatic resposes take over.
If you have trouble with this try meditation it helps alot.

The adrenaline dump you get when faced with a scrap give you tunnel vision, you think your senses are enhanced and they are, but only straight in front of you. Yes it does make you faster but at the cost of your accuracy (fine motor function) also in the heat of the moment you just want the b*****d on the pavement, in pain. The more your exposed to this, the easier it becomes to control (breathing helps). If you've never been in a fight you can't really understand what i'm trying to convey. If your training envirnoment is 100% comfortable then your kidding yourself that you can handle this.

Thanx

Darzeka

05-Jul-2002, 07:02 PM

Sorry that that bit sounded so bad.
Wasn't really thinking just babbling on the keyboard.

but that saying I've found that after realising that unless the other person is trying to stab you then there is no real reason to get excited and there is never a reason to get angry.
True you still the adrenaline but if you still have your wits about you and not clouded with rage, anger or bloodlust you can use it to your advantage. It is probably also to do with the source of the adrenaline, is it fear induced or just physical excerise.

Also I am a strange person and don't care whether you punch me in the head or not. One scenario I'm dead/unconcious/in tremedoud amounts of pain and the other nothing happened.
If I'm dead so what? I don't care I'm dead. If I'm unconcious then I still don't care until I wake up. If I'm in pain I will only look for the next blow but if none come then It's all good again - a little pain never hurt anybody - pain is good it lets us know we are alive.

Very little scares me now but when I have a near miss in my car (too frequent to be good) then I get the butterflies (I love 'em), stop thinking and act. My reflexes take over then thought returns with my body still pumping (reflex action only a fraction of a second).

What does it matter if I get beaten up in a fight?
What does it matter if I die?
Why do people care about little things so much?

pesilat

05-Jul-2002, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Darzeka
Sorry that that bit sounded so bad.
Wasn't really thinking just babbling on the keyboard.

but that saying I've found that after realising that unless the other person is trying to stab you then there is no real reason to get excited and there is never a reason to get angry.
True you still the adrenaline but if you still have your wits about you and not clouded with rage, anger or bloodlust you can use it to your advantage. It is probably also to do with the source of the adrenaline, is it fear induced or just physical excerise.

Also I am a strange person and don't care whether you punch me in the head or not. One scenario I'm dead/unconcious/in tremedoud amounts of pain and the other nothing happened.
If I'm dead so what? I don't care I'm dead. If I'm unconcious then I still don't care until I wake up. If I'm in pain I will only look for the next blow but if none come then It's all good again - a little pain never hurt anybody - pain is good it lets us know we are alive.

Very little scares me now but when I have a near miss in my car (too frequent to be good) then I get the butterflies (I love 'em), stop thinking and act. My reflexes take over then thought returns with my body still pumping (reflex action only a fraction of a second).

What does it matter if I get beaten up in a fight?
What does it matter if I die?
Why do people care about little things so much?

Your attitudes are pretty similar to mine. Except that, with my driving record, I don't even get butterflies anymore in near misses in the car ;)

I'm not sure if you're taking tangent or not, Darzeka.

But, for the moment, I'll assume you're not (unless you correct me).

The fine motor skill degradation and the tunnel vision have little to do with emotions ... emotions can increase these effects ... and, hopefully, our training works to nullify this.

But even without emotional content, the chemical dump is what really promotes these side effects. While these chemicals (adrenaline, endorphins, and others) are created in your body ... they are still drugs ... so you get high. They have an impact on your mind and your perception.

When you get hit, regardless of emotional impact, the physical side takes place ... some chemicals get dumped into your system, your heart rate picks up, your breathing rate increases (and, if someone isn't trained to control it, it usually gets pretty shallow). Your depth perception may be affected, you may tunnel vision (as a physical result of the chemicals). Time seems distorted. All of this adds up and when you move you may be moving a bit faster or slower than what you perceive. So, your "block" may be too soon and just open your line for the guy's shot. Your "strike" may be fired overzelously and (due to distorted depth perception) may miss completely.

It's kinda like being in a hurry and thinking there's another step at the top of the stairs ... you end up stumbling on thin air.

Training (especially hard, if not full, contact sparring) helps reduce the impact that these effects have. Through training (again, this is particularly relevant to hard sparring), we become intimate with our body's reactions under stress and we learn to cope with it.

The emotions can make these physical effects even more dramatic ... so our training is also to help us reduce the impact our emotions have on it ... or to cope with the impact they do have. Ideally, we learn how to use all of this (especially the knowledge of how the fight is likely affecting our opponent) to our advantage ... but "learning" it and "doing" it are two different beasts and none of us can know, with certainty, how we will react until the fit hits the shan. Training increases our odds.

And, having been in previous "situations" increases our odds. But it's still no guarantee. Each "situation" (real world confrontation) is different and unique (though many share similarities) and must be dealt with on the spur of the moment. How we react in one is an indicator, but not a guarantee, of how we may act in the next.

Training and experience are our only methods of preparation ... but, ultimately, all they can do is increase our odds.

Mike

mattsylvester

09-Jul-2002, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by Melanie
Hi all,

Over the past couple of months, as I have been going through the kata I need to know, I have been looking at alternative bunkai/oyo for the basics.

I also do Self Defence at least once a week and this has exposed me to pressure points. I was wondering how much emphasis you have on pressure points in your dojo, if at all?

There appears to be several trains of thought on pressurepoints, from setting up points to hitting a person that is particularly vulnerable at that time of day (?) (Apparently the best time to attack me is between 12-3 am :( ). I look forward to your comments on this ever growing topic...

Melanie

In Kempo Ryu virtually every strike goes to pressure points but it isn't actually taught as pressure points (they aren't even discussed really). Shunryu Kempo has a lot of pressure points in it and they ARE discussed as Sensei Adam Merton (http://www.shunryu-kempo.co.uk) is a member of Prof Rick Clark's Ao Denkou Kai and has always been interested in pressure points.

In TKD we don't really do them yet but I'm starting to introduce them and will use basic points (not necessarily teaching them as so) in my Practical TKD class.

Jim

27-Jul-2002, 11:53 PM

There's a good article on the judoinfo site about what actually happens to cause the reaction when you engage a pressure point - worthwhile reading.

Another interesting thing about pressure points are that although they cause I'M-NOT-MESSING-AROUND type of pain to a person, they also can be used to heal and to increase blood flow to areas that need it.

Just don't make the mistake of appling one to a person you're trying to control because it tends to aggrevate rather than subdue an opponent.

Spike

28-Jul-2002, 02:22 PM

If you believe in Ki, it`s because activating a Pressure point in one way allows the Ki to flow in the correct manner and is beneficial to the body.
Causing the flow of Ki to stop or slow down is not, thus the pain.

ladyhawk

28-Jul-2002, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Jim

Another interesting thing about pressure points are that although they cause I'M-NOT-MESSING-AROUND type of pain to a person, they also can be used to heal and to increase blood flow to areas that need it.

Jim,
Healing and harming go hand in hand.
If you the ability to heal using these methods, you also have the ability to harm.

ladyhawk

28-Jul-2002, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Jim
There's a good article on the judoinfo site about what actually happens to cause the reaction when you engage a pressure point - worthwhile reading.

Jim,
Can you post the URL for this site please.
Thank you muchly!
Ladyhawk

Freeform

07-Sep-2002, 07:32 AM

One thing I'd like to point out to people is that generally PP's don't end fights. They can be used as a close control to remove someone from an area or to obtain an extreme reaction from the body, usually to expose highly unprotected areas.

When using PP's for close control apply the PP hold and bang it on hard (to give an idea I'll use some totally meaningless numbers) about 80% then back off to about 60%, if they give you any hassle, bang it on for a second up to about 90% then back off again to 60%. This is because the body can adapt to a baseline level of pain, if you disrupt this it makes it harder for the guy to resist.

Thanx

Darzeka

07-Sep-2002, 08:24 AM

Why dn't we ever see anybody looking to disable people in fights (street/competition/UFC style)?

The vast majority of fights I've seen involve both people looking to knock out their opponent with head strikes locks or chokes.

Apart from the round leg kicking of kick boxing I have witnessed no attacks that are specifically for the limiting of an opponents arsenal.

Remember giving your mates dead arms in school? How little effort did the strikes need to completely deaden someone's arm.

Now if I hit one of the three PP's (i think theres three) that do this with a full force strike then the will have an extremely sore arm and possibly won't be able to use it. Most people are only expecting attacks to the head and stomach with distractions to their legs.

Also striking down on top of the fleshy part of the shoulder above the collar bone hurts an incredible amount and also has a chance of disabling that side of the body, along with breaking the collar bone.

these are a couple, I could think of more but does anyone else have any they use or know of?

Freeform

07-Sep-2002, 08:59 AM

The arm thing isn't a PP its the end of a muscle, the same as when you get a dead leg. I don't know the exact physiology behind it but I expect it causes a type of spasm after which you can't tense the muscle effectively.

Striking down on the collar bone does hurt like hell, but all the PP's in that area are behind the collar bone so it would be very hard to strike into the PP area and break the collar bone at the same time (unless you were using a hammer). Even if you broke the collar bone your leg wouldn't be affected.

The only real PP's on your arm (rough areas) are the inside of your upper arm, the inside top area of your forearm, the inside wrist area and the infamous 1980's womans self defence one (the area between your thumb and forefinger).

Having been subjected to all of these and more around the body, and having been hurt by very knowledgeable people the only time I've had a limb rendered useless is through the dead muscle method, not PP's.

p.s I forgot the upper inside arm, just above the elbow joint.

Jim

07-Sep-2002, 10:11 AM

Mascism 101:

Try the PP in the top of the foot between the bone leading to the Big Toe and the 2nd Toe.

A new kind of pain...

ladyhawk

07-Sep-2002, 12:15 PM

Here's an excellent research paper on the "Anatomy of Pain"

http://www.ahs.uwaterloo.ca/~ranney/painanat.html

gojutejutsuryu

01-Jan-2003, 03:21 PM

Melanie,
Hi,... ... ... In Goju 'Te Jutsu Ryu we concentrate quiet heavily on pressure point strikes, nerve point manipulation, meridians, etc etc.
It would take far to much time for me to lay down even the foundations of this side of the martial science, but a very good web-site that you will find extremely interesting is, presented by "Romel's School of Taijiquan & Dim Mak" (Accu-points or Pressure Points)

http://www.pressurepointfighting.com/public_html_mak_taiji_points.htm

Hope it helps,
Good luck

STAY FOREVER YOUNG

gojutejutsuryu
(South Africa)

gojutejutsuryu

01-Jan-2003, 03:25 PM

Melanie,
The web-site address I have just given you seems to have come out wrong.
It should read:

www.pressurepointfighting.com/public_html/dim_mak_taiji_points.htm

gojutejutsuryu
(South Africa)

gojutejutsuryu

01-Jan-2003, 03:28 PM

Melanie: !!!!!!!!!
This does not seem to be working.???
Lets try it in 2 x lines.

www.pressurepointfighting.com/
public_html/dim_mak_taiji_points.htm

gojutejutsuryu

01-Jan-2003, 03:29 PM

Melanie,
Thats it, at last,... ... ...good luck

gojutejutsuryu
(South Africa)

iolair

09-Jan-2003, 10:19 AM

A good reference on pressure points is "Dragon's Touch" by Master Hei Long. Amazon stock it.

First though, you need to have a very good, accurate technique. And then as mentioned in a self defence situation, the effects of adrenaline will throw your aim off by an inch or two....

Many successful street fighters/survival fighters use only one "pressure point": the chin. A hard blow here will shake the brain for a fraction of a second causing stunning or knockout. IMHO, a detailed knowledge of pressure points that goes much beyond half a dozen obvious basics is redundant.

Cain

09-Jan-2003, 10:27 AM

Ya I agree, I read somewhere that it's easier to get knocked out by hitting the chin rather than the jaws

|Cain|

TkdWarrior

09-Jan-2003, 11:17 AM

tho it's easy to find out PP's in body but it takes precision n real power to hit those except for some points like eye,nose etc.
-TkdWarrior-

pgm316

09-Jan-2003, 11:26 AM

From what I've heard various people say, it seems pressure points can be more of a hindrance than a help during a fight, apart from the easy ones the Tkd mentioned.

Does anybody know of any online resources? Charts etc

TkdWarrior

09-Jan-2003, 12:30 PM

yea www.taijiworld.com/downloads/Free_books.htm
it's good one but not comprehensive... Erle hav Encyclopedia too on Dim Mak...
the one i hav learned(not complete) is Indian system(Marma Atti), n it is basically used with weapons
-TkdWarrior-

pesilat

09-Jan-2003, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by TkdWarrior
tho it's easy to find out PP's in body but it takes precision n real power to hit those except for some points like eye,nose etc.
-TkdWarrior-

Not really. All they normally take is penetration ... not power. Many can be activated with relatively little power.

Mike

pesilat

09-Jan-2003, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by pgm316
From what I've heard various people say, it seems pressure points can be more of a hindrance than a help during a fight, apart from the easy ones the Tkd mentioned.

Does anybody know of any online resources? Charts etc

Why would they be a hindrance? The only way they could be a hindrance is if you get hung up looking for them. That's true of *anything* you get hung up in.

If you go into a fight looking for a specific joint lock, you'll probably get hospitalized before you find it.

If you go into a fight looking for a specific disarm, you'll probably get hospitalized before you find it.

If you go into a fight looking for a specific takedown, you'll probably get hospitalized before you find it.

If you go into a fight with any kind of preconceived plan, you'll probably get hospitalized before you can implement it.

Pressure points, disarms, locks, takedowns, chokes ... even strikes ... are all "tools of opportunity" in a fight. Get hung up trying to find anything and you put yourself at a disadvantage. Take what's available when the opportunity presents itself.

But if you never train these things, then you won't know whether they're available or not and won't be able to take advantage of them even if the opportunity is staring you in the face for the duration of the fight.

They're all just tools. You have to train your body to reflexively find and take the openings presented with a tool appropriate to the opening.

Mike

TkdWarrior

09-Jan-2003, 02:50 PM

i agree with that much Mike many of PP r exposed but most of them r covered with good flesh/muscles, for ex on rite side of chest close to nipples they own't activate with little power but with good power, n hitting them wont' give u KO but drain all the power from ur oppnt, which will serve as set up for ur attacking set. there r some on inside of thigh n on ur butt which activates with real power frankly if u think they'll activate with little power then u'll be half paralysed by now because everyone gets good fall on thier a$$es once in a while...

n those which r exposed r known by almost every MAist n utilised by them(eye, chin, ear drums etcs)
-TkdWarrior-

pesilat

09-Jan-2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by TkdWarrior
i agree with that much Mike many of PP r exposed but most of them r covered with good flesh/muscles, for ex on rite side of chest close to nipples they own't activate with little power but with good power, n hitting them wont' give u KO but drain all the power from ur oppnt, which will serve as set up for ur attacking set. there r some on inside of thigh n on ur butt which activates with real power frankly if u think they'll activate with little power then u'll be half paralysed by now because everyone gets good fall on thier a$$es once in a while...

n those which r exposed r known by almost every MAist n utilised by them(eye, chin, ear drums etcs)
-TkdWarrior-

If it's the ones on the inside of the thigh that I'm thinking of, they don't take much power to activate at all ... just penetration.

A swift kick to those points with the tip of the shoe (doesn't have to be a powerful kick ... just have good penetration) will generally have a useful effect.

But ... I *never* rely on any one thing ... period. Anything can fail. Even something as rudimentary as a right cross ... there are people who can shake off my best right cross with a grunt and a grin. But while they're grunting, I'm going to be hitting them again ... probably with a weapon :)

If I hit a pressure point and it has its desired effect ... that's icing on the cake. If it buys me even a split second (whether it has any other effect or not) ... that's my intent. But, regardless, I'm going to be hitting him (or locking, sweeping, etc. ... attacking him) again.

Mike

pgm316

09-Jan-2003, 03:07 PM

Ok fair point Mike, it was too much of a sweeping statement that I came out with.

I still have a few concerns, how effective they are when used in a messy street situation compared to a training situation. Do you go for a pressure point hit that you can't hit as hard and if you don't pull it off you could be in a bad situation, or do you stick to throwing boxing style jabs and crosses? In this way its not just another tool, it could totally change your striking style.

After being in numerous "real" situations, I don't feel like I'm in the right frame of mind to use them effectively. Although in time, maybe I will learn to use some.

pesilat

09-Jan-2003, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by pgm316
Ok fair point Mike, it was too much of a sweeping statement that I came out with.

I still have a few concerns, how effective they are when used in a messy street situation compared to a training situation. Do you go for a pressure point hit that you can't hit as hard and if you don't pull it off you could be in a bad situation, or do you stick to throwing boxing style jabs and crosses? In this way its not just another tool, it could totally change your striking style.

After being in numerous "real" situations, I don't feel like I'm in the right frame of mind to use them effectively. Although in time, maybe I will learn to use some.

I attack anything that's open. In a fight, I don't think about striking points. I strike wherever there's an opening. But because I've drilled the awareness of some of the points into my body, it automatically targets them within the opening (hope that makes sense).

Mike

pgm316

09-Jan-2003, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by pesilat

I attack anything that's open. In a fight, I don't think about striking points. I strike wherever there's an opening. But because I've drilled the awareness of some of the points into my body, it automatically targets them within the opening (hope that makes sense).

Mike

I know what you mean, its just a matter of drilling and drilling.

What I've drilled doesn't always happen though :p

Have you ever used pressure points in a real situation?

I just wonder if they are as effective with your opponents adrenaline flowing.

pesilat

09-Jan-2003, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by pgm316

I know what you mean, its just a matter of drilling and drilling.

What I've drilled doesn't always happen though :p

Have you ever used pressure points in a real situation?

I just wonder if they are as effective with your opponents adrenaline flowing.

Yes. But it was a grappling situation, not a striking situation. I was restraining my step-son (he was 19 at the time ... 6' 2", 180 lbs.). I had pinned and when he started to struggle, I placed my forearm across his cheek and ground into the points along the jawline. His struggling immediately ceased.

I've used striking points in sparring. Which is certainly not the same level of adrenaline as a real fight ... but there's still some adrenaline. I've dropped people to the floor, taken their wind, and caused a lot of pain with some relatively light strikes that were well-placed.

I generally have better luck using points during grappling than striking ... but they're there in striking, too.

Mike

pgm316

09-Jan-2003, 03:55 PM

Sounds good Mike.

Definitely something I should look into more! I have covered them, but obviously not to a high enough standard to make them effective.

I tried your link Tkd, couldn't get it to work, do you have any good links for that Mike? :)

pesilat

09-Jan-2003, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by pgm316
Sounds good Mike.

Definitely something I should look into more! I have covered them, but obviously not to a high enough standard to make them effective.

I tried your link Tkd, couldn't get it to work, do you have any good links for that Mike? :)

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/accu.asp

That page deals with some pretty traditional approaches. I'm really more of a "JHH" (Just Hit Here) guy. But the traditional stuff is interesting and the JHH material is in it. And the page does have some illustrations of the meridians and their points.

I've uploaded the meridian charts that I use. They are big and easy to see. Unfortunately, I forget where I originally downloaded them. But I've put them up at http://www.guild-hall.com/pressure_points (I tried to attach the images in a zipped file ... but the file was too big to attach to this post).

One of the guys who taught me about pressure points, though, told me something that's helped me a lot. A lot of pressure points are found in the "pockets" between muscles (i.e.: inside the arm between the bicep and tricep is one of these "pockets"). Often striking or digging into these pockets will activate one or more points. This method has helped me a lot in finding the points. Once they're found, then they can be drilled. You can experiment to find whether they work better when struck or gouged. You can find ways to get to them in various scenarios and drill them.

Mike

TkdWarrior

10-Jan-2003, 12:35 AM

http://www.taijiworld.com/download/Point_Location.zip
ok pgm zip it...
i m on run xam in less than 3 hour.
-TkdWarrior-

pgm316

10-Jan-2003, 08:50 AM

Thanks for the info Mike & Tkd, it is very complicated stuff. I think I need a pressure points for dummies book ;) Or maybe a top ten list of points usable in a fight. Although the health side is also very interesting!

Mike Flanagan

10-Jan-2003, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by pgm316
From what I've heard various people say, it seems pressure points can be more of a hindrance than a help during a fight, apart from the easy ones the Tkd mentioned.

Does anybody know of any online resources? Charts etc

Hi all

I've been taking a sabbatical over christmas. But now I'm back and I'm bad. Oh OK, maybe I'm just slightly naughty.

Anyway I'd say pressure points can be really helpful. But first a few observations, and I make no apologies if these observations don't sit well with anyone.

1. I'd take no notice of chinese medical theory with regard to pressure points. I see it as a complete red herring. See my article in the articles section of this website on this very same website. And I'm saying it as someone who has formal qualifications in chinese medicine and uses those concepts in my work as a therapist.
2. Also be a little sceptical about using acupuncture points as a guide for vital point location. Sure, many acupuncture points make good vital points, but there are plenty of other potentially more useful points that are not classical acupuncture points.
3. Sometimes its more useful to think of pressure zones than single points.
4. Sometimes pressure points don't work when you grab (as opposed to strike) them. There are lots of theories about why this is but the simple fact is that they don't work too well on about 10% of the population. So you don't rely on them, you add them to already good technique.

I use vital points in nearly everything martial that I do. They are an integral part of my martial art. There are many useful points. But learning to use them properly takes a lot of practice. Just like learning to do a head height roundhouse kick takes a lot of practice. But the advantage is that in 30 years time I'll still be able to strike vital points effectively whilst most of us will be unable to perform powerful high kicks as our zimmer frames will get in the way.

Can you use them in a real fight? I'm sure you can, as long as you go about it the right way (in which case its almost impossible to miss them). From what I've seen many pressure point people do not use them in the right way though. Happily, I've never had to use such techniques in a real confrontation but my prior experience gives me a realistic view on what I can or can't achieve when push comes to shove.

Mike

Cain

11-Jan-2003, 06:29 AM

Bravo! Mike is back with his speeches :D

|Cain|

goatnipples2002

04-Feb-2003, 09:23 PM

I believe when it comes to pp and striking them all you need to do is condition your Phoenix-Eye/Ippon-Ken/Tiger's Tooth (one knuckle punch). Then everytime you strike you put all your force into a space about the size of a dime (dillman explains a pp is about the same size). Maybe it's just me, but that makes the most since.

I don't have any training in the arts, but I do have training from where it counts, the streets.

Mike Flanagan

05-Feb-2003, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by goatnipples2002
Then everytime you strike you put all your force into a space about the size of a dime (dillman explains a pp is about the same size). Maybe it's just me, but that makes the most since.

It also means that you're putting all your force through 2 joints in your forefinger that were not designed to transmit such force. Its hard to see how this could not be damaging to you in the long run.

Mike

goatnipples2002

06-Feb-2003, 07:13 PM

You're right about using full force on two knuckle joints, but IF it is conditioned your more than ok. I don't practice as of yet, but I will in about a week when I get my heavy bag. I started my research about martial arts two years ago. Since then I have read about damn near all the martial arts and why they do the things they do (fighting wise). I don't see it hurting me in the long run because I'm a firm believer in gradual conditioning. My one knuckle punch might no be tough enough to withstand maximum force on it right now, but in a year you better watch out.

Here is my training curriculm for MY hands, No set time frame, progress when it FEELS right. If you could set a time limit then I'd be a master in exactly 5 min.

1.) Closed fist
2.) Leopard fist
3.) 2 Knuckle punch
4.) 1 Knuckle punch

This way I GRADUALLY progress to the next level when it FEELS OK to move on (or better yet, when I can strike with full power using each technique).

If that ain't solid, tell me what's shakey.

AllOutWar

06-Feb-2003, 07:48 PM

:woo: what's shakey is your leg's when I threw that jab cross low round house combo:eek: :woo:

Solane

07-Mar-2003, 06:35 AM

One of my attacks that is second nature is to the neck and a pressure point area. I was told when first learning that this area has 3 possible out comes.
1 just the pain from my attack,
2 increased pain for actually hitting the pressure point &
3 unconsciousness for hitting it bang on.

All dependant on the person you are fighting as stated before different people react differently to pain.

So my instructor said never count on anything more than getting reaction 1, and be moving onto another attack straight away. If you get reaction 2 or 3 all the better.

I also have now been told that after 8 years of training I have to be more careful of striking this are as my strenth and power could cause far more damage to the neck than I am expecting.

Hope that helps the discussion.

Solane

PS. I dont actually study Karate I practice Ninjutsu

Mike Flanagan

07-Mar-2003, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by goatnipples2002
You're right about using full force on two knuckle joints, but IF it is conditioned your more than ok. I don't practice as of yet, but I will in about a week when I get my heavy bag. I started my research about martial arts two years ago. Since then I have read about damn near all the martial arts and why they do the things they do (fighting wise).

So you don't actually practice this but you feel free to tell us all about it?

I don't see it hurting me in the long run because I'm a firm believer in gradual conditioning. My one knuckle punch might no be tough enough to withstand maximum force on it right now, but in a year you better watch out.

It won't hurt you because of what you believe? Your body doesn't give jack-sh*t what you believe. If you damage it it'll hurt alright.

Here is my training curriculm for MY hands, No set time frame, progress when it FEELS right. If you could set a time limit then I'd be a master in exactly 5 min.

1.) Closed fist
2.) Leopard fist
3.) 2 Knuckle punch
4.) 1 Knuckle punch

This way I GRADUALLY progress to the next level when it FEELS OK to move on (or better yet, when I can strike with full power using each technique).

If that ain't solid, tell me what's shakey.

What's shaky is the fact that you're telling us about something you don't actually do. Go and practice it for 10 years THEN come and tell us all about it.

Incredulous,

Mike

Mike Flanagan

07-Mar-2003, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Solane
One of my attacks that is second nature is to the neck and a pressure point area.

I agree, the neck is an excellent target and one well worth attacking in a serious self-defence situation, ie. one in which you have reason to fear for your life.

So my instructor said never count on anything more than getting reaction 1, and be moving onto another attack straight away. If you get reaction 2 or 3 all the better.

I agree with this too. Attacking vital points is something that should be added to already existing good technique, but only as long as it does not detract from that technique.

I also have now been told that after 8 years of training I have to be more careful of striking this are as my strenth and power could cause far more damage to the neck than I am expecting.

Yes, necks are very fragile and should only be struck in situations of extreme danger. An alternative I like for milder situations is simply to grab or press points on the neck.

Mike

Solane

07-Mar-2003, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by Mike Flanagan

What's shaky is the fact that you're telling us about something you don't actually do. Go and practice it for 10 years THEN come and tell us all about it.

Incredulous,

Mike

Lol very true Mike very True.

GoatNipples2002

It is fine to say you have done a lot of reading and you are thinking of training this way and even to ask if what you are considering is sound.
But then to discount the advice of people with far more experience in the field you are going into is untrue.

I have been training since I was 11 years old I stopped training when I was 29 years old as I moved to a new area and job. I did 9 years of judo and the last 9 years in ninjutsu.

When I was 28 I was doing a demonstration for the students and as part of a video with my instructor under controlled conditions on mats. I got both legs swept from under me and ended up hitting the floor in a sitting position. I continued with the demonstration and then 3 weeks later put my back out at work or so I thought. The doctor said it was a pulled muscle, but I went to a physiotherapist my family knows and he actually correctly diagnosed that I had fractured my lower back. As the muscle spasms and amount of movement I had were not consistent with a pulled muscle. I eventually returned to training after 5 months and full training after 7months.

My point is I received a nasty injury under safe conditions with my own experience totalling 17 years with my instructors easily double that. I have always trained at least twice a week for 2 hours at a time.
To hear you dismiss Mike who probably has even more experience than me is very silly. You need the guidance of a decent instructor before you start training your hands and for that you need to find a decent club. I just hope you are sensible enough to listen to us before you injure yourself.

Solane

Solane

07-Mar-2003, 03:57 PM

I have not stated where or what part of the neck I attack as anyone who is training probably has a good Idea of where I target.
I don’t want some of the younger or more irresponsible members of these forums thinking cool that sounds like fun and attacking friends and family to see if it works.
As Mike stated the neck is very fragile if you don’t know what you are doing. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing when you are ignorant of the consequences.

Train safe

Solane

Kwan Jang

05-Apr-2003, 06:17 AM

-A pressure point is where a nerve either crosses(like an"X") or braches(like a "y"). There are over 720 on the human body with roughly 120 of easy access. The activation area for each point is approx. the size of a (US) quarter. They run along lines called merideans that correspond to a related organ(or in the case of tripple warmer, gland). The real purpose of pp's is to serve as a safety mechanism to bypass the concious control of the brain(this is why if you put your hand on a hot burner, you don't have to wait to smell your flesh burningand decide to remove your hand). These points can be "tricked" into releasing a joint so that it will not be damaged(ex.golgi reflex response). When a pp is activated(some are push points, some strike, some rub), most people experience pain as a by-product, but that is not the objective as this can be resisted. You have pp's at the origin and insertion of every muscle as well as a minimum of four for every joint in the human body. I would recommend Mr.Dillman's books for reference as he gives detailed lists of each point in both terms of TCM as well as western medicine; you can access other point info on www.kyusho.com,as well. Pres.point work is divided into two complentary areas:kyusho for striking, which includes combos along the meridean, along the cycle of destruction, diurnal cycle of ki,ect. Let me add to others comments; 1)If you train w/ adrenal stress response as a factor, it is not a big deal once you become accustomed to it and hampers you far less and in fact can enhance performance as it was designed to do. 2)Practicing your attacks/strikes in sequence is just like playing pool/billiards, you sink the shot, but set up the next one. This is also anintegral part of Ed Parker's American Kenpo system. W/ practice, it's pretty simple. 3)I have used this both in class settings and as a Bouncer(through college) and bodyguard(after college bfore opening my school) in the streets and combat conditions with ease and great success. The second section is tuite (I am using the Okinawan terms since the majority of material in the media uses these terms, but you could just as easily substitute chin na, dim mak, keupso, or any other equv. term), the art of pressure point grappling. My personal favorite, considering that while Ican use this to maim or kill, I have the option to control the situation w/ little or no damage to the other person. I can be more merciful, as well as avoid legeal problems. When you set up a cross-extensor reflex action(don't blame me, that's the medical term for it), the attacker loses all body control as the brain can't get the signals through to the body.(I love doing this to my black belts for all the grey hairs they've given me). -P.S. Being very large and muscular(6'1" -255lbs-cut), I am the favorite whipping boy at virtually every seminar(have to show it works on gorrilas too), I can testify that Dillman's (and Jay's) methods work and that touch KO's are not only real, but you can duplicate the results yourself on any willing student(or any unwilling who is late w/ their tuition.-LOL).

goatnipples2002

07-Apr-2003, 08:04 PM

I have thrown the idea of me training the 1 knuckle punch out the door. It isn't very practical because it takes too many years to develop to it's full potential. If I have to defend myself I want to know something that might take me 6-9 months to learn over 5 years. This ain't 1414 any more. I think pressure points are OK, but structural targets are the best. Listen up before you get to talk about why they are so effective. First if you we're to encounter someone on meth, someone drunk, someone "high" off of adrenaline or some ******* that has an extreme tolerance to pain what do you do? Pressure points won't help your ass, now will they!!!!! I focus on structural targets now. Like breaking ribs (right below the armpit), the neck (preferably in the area of cv22, but any shot to the neck is more than OK), or the knee joint. There are many more, but these are my primary targets. I have recently started Muay Thai and this has changed my mind about the whole pressure point thing. I feel that atructural manipulation is the best because you can't build up a joint to take abuse, NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE. Now argue that.:woo:

pesilat

07-Apr-2003, 08:36 PM

Nothing is guaranteed.

There are people who will take your best shot and shrug it off. There are people who have very flexible joints and can fight right through joint locks. There are people who are very agile in general who can take your full kick directly to their knee and, by turning their leg, prevent any kind of injury to their leg.

In a fight, there are absolutely no guarantees as to what will or won't work. About the closest you can get to a guarantee is that no one will come out unblemished (and that's not even guaranteed, but it's highly unlikely to happen).

This is why it's best to be well-rounded. So you can flow from one thing to the next.

If you're well-rounded, you have a chance at preventing yourself from getting seriously injured while you continue to attack.

If you put all your eggs in one basket (whether it's a certain type of strike, striking points, striking in general, grappling, groundfighting, weapons, etc.) ... eventually, someone will come along and sit on your basket, breaking all your eggs.

Don't try to find "the ultimate solution" ... try to become well-rounded so you have a likely solution for a lot of possibilities.

Mike

goatnipples2002

07-Apr-2003, 08:47 PM

I agree, but I used to rely on pp now I focus on structural damage. You try fighting through a broke on windpipe or ribs that are poking your lungs.

pesilat

07-Apr-2003, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by goatnipples2002
I agree, but I used to rely on pp now I focus on structural damage. You try fighting through a broke on windpipe or ribs that are poking your lungs.

That's fine and completely valid.

My point is, don't rely on any one thing ... period.

You won't always be able to land the shot that collapses the trachea or breaks the ribs.

Mike

pesilat

07-Apr-2003, 09:08 PM

Oh. And something else to consider.

Crushing tracheas, breaking necks and ribs, dislocating joints is all good stuff. But there are situations where it's not what you want to do. These situations may be due to "rules of engagement" on a job (i.e.: working security or law enforcement) or they may be due to the nature of the attacker. If he's a buddy or relative who's gone temporarily nutso, then permanent injuries (much less lethal force) may not be what you want to do.

When I've most commonly been put in this situation, it was with my step-son. He's a high functioning autistic and has occasional bouts of paranoia and/or schizophrenia (among other things). On occasion, I'd have to restrain him. The last time it happened, for instance, he was 19 years old, stood 6' 2" and weighed about 200 lbs. I pinned him down and held him, applying various joint locks to keep his mind occupied and prevent him from really trying to fight me. My wife understood the necessity of what I did and was OK with it, but seeing it still stressed her out pretty badly. If I had put him in the hospital or the morgue, it would have been that much more difficult for my wife (even if my actions had been justified and/or necessary).

Never rely on any one thing because you will, eventually, encounter a situation where that one thing isn't available for one reason or another, or just doesn't work.

Mike

Kwan Jang

08-Apr-2003, 05:49 AM

In reply to "Goatsnipple", -Seeing as how pressure point attacks target the nervous system and dirupt nerve transmission, being drunk, on meth(or other drugs) actually make you more suseptible, not less. Being adrenalized or having a high pain tolerence is of no value either, if the person using the kyusho or tuite knows what they are doing and how to apply it. I would agree w/ you in the value of doing structural damage; obviously if you hit someone in the nose w/ a sledgehammer (or land a good sidekick to their knee), you will do some damage. However, this requires both a level of athleticism that some students(or potential ones) may not have. Also, think about the moral and LEGAL consequences of doing severe structural damage in anything less than a life or death situation. BTW-I was introduced to Muay Thai by Benny "the Jet" Urquidez in 1980 and have trained w/ (world champ) Alex Gong and the trainers at the Fairtex camp . Muay Thai is a part of the cirriculum I teach and my record as a professional kickboxer was 8-0. I've also toyed w/ the idea of calling up Scott Coker, the promoter of the US K-1 fights and seeing if I can play. At close to 40 and having knee injuries(which make my knees feel 80) is the only reason I spend any time griping about "Why didn't they have a well promoted kickboxing/full-contact event that paid well enough to keep me in the sport 15-20 years ago", instead of just getting in there (anybody see what happened to Rick Roufus' knee at last years' K-1. OUCH!). So, when you say that you're now into muay thai, I know that terain too. -Personally, I agree w/ Mr. Castro in that being well-rounded is a must. My contention is that proper knowledge of pressure points is an important part of that.-KJN.

goatnipples2002

08-Apr-2003, 11:38 PM

I'm the type of person that has no remorse for ANYBODY trying to hurt me. I don't care who runs up I don't discriminate on ass whoopins. If they're trying to hurt me (I mean seriously trying to hurt me) I'm going for the throat(cv22), the knee joint, and the "special" spot below your armpit (if you've been hit there with just a little power you underdig what I'm talkin bout).

Kwan Jang you must have not encountered anybody on meth because you would understand they don't feel pain. I hope you never find out the wrong way. Plus it takes too much precision and concentration to try and strike a moving target in a spot that's about the size of a dime.

I rely on several techniques to keep me alive in the streets. Believe PP aren't the first means of defense for me.

pesilat

09-Apr-2003, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by goatnipples2002
I'm the type of person that has no remorse for ANYBODY trying to hurt me. I don't care who runs up I don't discriminate on ass whoopins. If they're trying to hurt me (I mean seriously trying to hurt me) I'm going for the throat(cv22), the knee joint, and the "special" spot below your armpit (if you've been hit there with just a little power you underdig what I'm talkin bout).

See my example with my step-son. He wasn't attacking me. I had to restrain him to prevent him from doing property damage and/or hurting himself.

That's a completely different situation than if someone's trying to take my head off.

Also, if you ever work security, then you may be restricted by the job. If you cross the line then you might lose your job, face legal charges, or even get the employer shut down.

There are situations that demand a lower level of response. If you haven't encountered any of them yet ... well, there's a few things to be said about that.

A) you're still relatively young (for that matter, so am I)

B) hopefully, none of us will ever have to use our skills in any way shape or form, but the world has a way of occasionally conspiring against us in that regard

C) hopefully, you'll consider these things before you are in a situation where they're relevant because if you haven't considered them, you'll likely end up in bad shape after the situation

To me, "self-defense" isn't about fighting. It's about getting home safely each night. Which, in turn, means I'm not in a hospital, morgue, jail, or court.

That means, in order:
A) Avoidance
B) Non-escalation
C) Compromise
D) Escape
E) Restrain
F) Fight

Depending on the situation, I may be forced to skip some of those steps. But fighting is my absolute last resort. Period.

I've got better things to do than recuperate from injuries, sit in a jail cell or court room, or lay on a slab.

Mike

Brad Ellin

09-Apr-2003, 12:20 AM

Question goatnipples, have you ever been confronted by anyone on meth? Drunk? Coked out of their skull? How many fights have you actually been in? Mike has made several good points through out this thread, most notable and most freqeuntly stressed is that you must be a well rounded martial artist. Don't ever think that you can predict where an altercation is going to go and how quickly you think you can end it. The neck is all fine and dandy, but as it has been pointed out, not all PP's work the same on every body. Trying striking some no neck bodybuilder on a streroid rage. Won't work. Combinations of strikes, locks, PP's will have more effect. And meth users do feel pain. Just not in the same way you and I would. It takes a bit longer for the pain impulse to reach their addled brains and say "hey, this is going to cause serious damage to my love life if I keep this up". As mike said way back in this thread, train to strike the PP's, Use them as a bull's eye. You may not hit them every time, heck you may never hit them, but you will strike with more focus and penetrating power. And that in turn can have a domino effect on the PP you were striking. It's the old story of the Archer and the Fish. Aim for a specific target and you will come closer to it every time as opposed to the person who just hits. Train yourself to home in on the PP's when training. When I practice Kihon Happo, say, from Ichimonji no Kamae and my partner throws a punch, I aim for the point just below the wrist and strike. My main partner has suffered enough bruises from my repeated striking to this same point. And his hand is usually numb before we're done. Does this help? You betcha. The occasions I have had to use my training, instinct, awareness and training have led my hands and feet and fingers and toes to PP's, joints and ribs as if a string was pulling them. Don't worry about hittinig a spot the size of a dime. Just hit ( or pinch, gouge, pull, whatever) If you never try, never train, then PP attacks are useless. But if you train, try and attack, you have added one more weapon to your already formidable arsenal.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

P.S. And before you ask, yes, I have been up against all that I listed at the top of my post. Plus people tripping, E'ing and just stoned. Would I try to disale them with throat crushing strikes and broken knees? No. I'd be setting myself up for a lawsuit. Besides, different people, different situations call for different responses.

Kwan Jang

09-Apr-2003, 05:19 AM

-I don't want to turn this into a "vs." thread, but I feel A need to respond to Goatnipples comment. First, pp's as I said before are NOT about creating pain, they are about disrupting the nervous system. Pain is a by-product that USUALLY goes along with this. Whether someone on meth (or any other drug) feels pain or not may only effect if you try to use escalation of pain as a deterent. If you know effective use of pp's, you can shut the person down pretty easily. For example, a cross-extensor reflex action (don't blame me, that's the medical term for it) will bypass any pain threshold (and I don't mean by that, that they will feel pain, but that it's a moot point.) by scrambling the signals from the brain to tell the body what to do. Second, I'm not only a master instructor in the martial arts, but also a certified tactical master. As such, I train law enforcement, private security, hospital personel, bodyguards, ect. on dealing w/ real-life situations. I bounced while in college(2 1/2 years-Hey, it was the best paying part-time job I could find in a college town.), worked as a bodyguard for various executives and entertainers(my partner in that business was a ex-Navy SEAL who was always getting us in trouble). I have also had the privaledge of working w/ Master Frank Cucchi, the SEAL team member and close quarters instructor who developed the standardized hand-to-hand training methods now used by all US Naval Special Warfare Groups. So yes, Ido know a little about dealing w/ real-life encounters. I also know the federal guidelines for use of force to keep me out of trouble both in criminal and civil court, unless it TRULY is a last resort tactic-situation. Then I can deal w/ that as appropriate. If they are using deadly force, I can respond in kind, but in most situations, if I exercise proper awareness, I can keep it from escalating to that point.(I will admit, this is not always possible, but in most cases, it is a failure on my part somewhere down the line if I let it get to that point). BTW-A question for the Budo Taijitsu practioner from Maryland who posted, do you know Will Mair(Spelling?), he's a budo taijitsu(Bujinkan) master instructor from your neck of the woods. I haven't seen him in several years, but a reat guy(at least when I knew him).

Brad Ellin

09-Apr-2003, 08:41 AM

Kwan Jung, no, I don't really know him. I met him a few years ago, seem like a nice guy. But he lives a bit far away from me (over 2 hours). I currently train with a judan in the Bujinkan, who lives only an hour away. Fantastic fellow!
Like you I did some bouncing, as recently as 5 years ago. And I agree about PP's not being about pain, but about disrupting (or even shutting down) energy flow or nerve paths.

Solane

09-Apr-2003, 09:16 AM

Hi

Just like to add another example of no damaging force.

My brother (Craig) was coming back from a night out with 3 of his friends; he was in his early 20’s and had his 1st Dan in Ninjutsu. He was sat in the back of the car with his mate Chris who was extremely drunk. Chris was acting the fool and grabbing his mate in the passenger seat and distracting the driver. Craig told him to pack it in but he continued to lark around, he them started trying to hug and head lock Craig.
Craig warned him and on Chris’s 2nd attempt to grab him. Craig locked out his arm next to his neck and forced his head down to his knee’s, and kept Chris there for a few minutes whimpering until he seemed to calm down. At this point Chris promised to behave and Craig let him up, but he instantly started to prat about again so Craig locked him up and kept him that way for the rest of the 20-minute car ride, until they dropped him off at his house. Chris apologised the next day to everyone for causing so much trouble.
They were and still are all very good friends.

I don’t think a neck or joint attack would really have been appropriate.

Solane

Mike Flanagan

09-Apr-2003, 11:55 AM

Hi Kwan Jang

Originally posted by Kwan Jang
-A pressure point is where a nerve either crosses(like an"X") or braches(like a "y"). There are over 720 on the human body with roughly 120 of easy access. The activation area for each point is approx. the size of a (US) quarter. They run along lines called merideans that correspond to a related organ(or in the case of tripple warmer, gland).

I don't mean to be disrespectful but, as someone with a formal qualification in Traditional Chinese Medicine, I have to point out that not all pressure points used in martial arts lie on meridians or correspond with classical acupuncture points.

The real purpose of pp's is to serve as a safety mechanism to bypass the concious control of the brain(this is why if you put your hand on a hot burner, you don't have to wait to smell your flesh burningand decide to remove your hand).

It sounds like you're mixing up different phenomena to there. The reflexes that cause your hand to move away from a flame do not involve pressure points. Any part of the surface of the human body can trigger such a reflex, it doesn't have to lie on a "pressure point", a tsubo or a meridian. This reflex arc is well understood by modern medicine and is not dependent in any way on the location of pressure points.

I can testify that Dillman's (and Jay's) methods work and that touch KO's are not only real, but you can duplicate the results yourself on any willing student(or any unwilling who is late w/ their tuition.-LOL).

And yet I have met and spoken to people who Dillman failed to knockout. I have also met at least one person who Moneymaker failed to make his players to the game work on. I don't doubt that light force knockouts can work. But I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "you can duplicate the results yourself on any willing student". Suggestion is a powerful tool and I suspect you can duplicate these things on your own compliant students more easily than on 'non-believers'. Yes, it can work, but it can also fail too.

A further (what I found amusing) point. One famous seminar instructor offered to do a 'no-touch' knockout on a friend of mine. My friend declined but said he would send me along to be knocked out. The seminar instructor declined. Imagine that, a world famous karate instructor being scared to demonstrate his no-touch knockout on me, a complete nobody with no special talent or skills. Sure makes one wonder about the validity of no touch knockouts.:)

Mike

Melanie

09-Apr-2003, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by Mike Flanagan
A further (what I found amusing) point. One famous seminar instructor offered to do a 'no-touch' knockout on a friend of mine. My friend declined but said he would send me along to be knocked out. The seminar instructor declined. Imagine that, a world famous karate instructor being scared to demonstrate his no-touch knockout on me, a complete nobody with no special talent or skills. Sure makes one wonder about the validity of no touch knockouts.:)

Mike

You a complete nobody eh?

Just did a search in Google under "Mike Flanagan Shiatsu" and you came up in the first 3 topics...

Rick Clarke has previously demonstrated KO's but never to the point where we collapse. The technique brings out "blue lightening" which is quite enough for me thank you!

pgm316

09-Apr-2003, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by Melanie

You a complete nobody eh?

Just did a search in Google under "Mike Flanagan Shiatsu" and you came up in the first 3 topics...

Rick Clarke has previously demonstrated KO's but never to the point where we collapse. The technique brings out "blue lightening" which is quite enough for me thank you!

You didn't hear his evil laughter as he typed it! ;)

Mike Flanagan

09-Apr-2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Melanie

You a complete nobody eh?

Just did a search in Google under "Mike Flanagan Shiatsu" and you came up in the first 3 topics...

Well, I don't like to blow my own trumpet you know.:o Anyway, I'm just good at marketing my shiatsu skills on the web. And in terms of martial arts I am a complete nobody. There are many more knowledgeable and skilled martial artists.

What amused me was that, at the time that a certain grandmaster declined to show his no touch knock out on me, I wasn't even a dan grade, or in possession of a shiatsu qualification. I was just a kyu grade with an attitude problem:)

Rick Clarke has previously demonstrated KO's but never to the point where we collapse. The technique brings out "blue lightening" which is quite enough for me thank you!

I think Rick is much more sensible. He acknowledges that knocking people unconscious is not doing them any good. Any amount of 'energy restoration' afterwards is not going to undo the physical harm that occurs when people are rendered unconscious. Teachers who mess about doing that on a regular basis are playing a foolish and dangerous game.

Another thing that I know Rick acknowledges is that not everybody responds the same to the typical pressure point strikes.

Mike

P.S. Melanie, I trust you got the stuff I sent on core stability OK. Let me how you get on with the exercises.

Kwan Jang

11-Apr-2003, 09:53 PM

-In reply to Mr. Flanigan's comments, -First, the point not on merideans or documented in TCM are known as MUE's or "extraordinary points". These points do fit the definition of a nerve center or pp by western medicine and are just as vakid. Apparently, TCM had either ignored or not discovered them for their uses. -Second, if you want to be technical(I was basiccly addressing at least some people w/ less knowledge or background in this area, so I was greatly simplifying things), you are correct in saying that pp's are not DIRECTLY responsble for the feflex response that I quoted> However, if memory serves me (my college courses in physiology and kinesiology were 15+ years ago, si I'll trust in you to correct me if I'm mistaken), these nerve centers are the juncture points(I've forgotten the technical term) for this to occur. Logically, this makes sense since stimulation of these points disruts their function. -Third, as far as the effects of pp KO's being the power of suggestion, I have osed these more than once as a VERY successful alternative to causing severe harm to drop the unwilling and uncooperative. I do agree w/ you that it is unwise and can cause serious problems to do full KO's or do partial ones w/ repetition. I have been injured by one Grandmaster)possibly the same one you refer to) in a seminar byhim not following his own rules of safety. This is why I do continue to work w/ some of his upper dans, but I will not let him touch me(it required 8 wks for me to use my wrist after he used me to demonstrate in a 3-hour seminar, and a year and a half-and help- before fully healed, I don't mean to whine, but you expect a certain amount of trust when you get "volunteered" for such things. -Finally, as far as somene not wanting to use you as their demonsrtator/uke/whipping boy, I'd say count your blessings. Seriously, this could be attributed to fears of liability to not liking your attitude and not wanting to show you extras that were not part of the seminar package you paid for. I have seen Leon Jay do non-touch KO's on people and gave them no expectation of what to expect. I have experimented w/ this myself and have been successful(dan-students can be fun to sacrifice for learning. LOL), but have found that I must fully relax to pull this off and under stress or tension/pressure, my success is diminished. There is an old Chinese saying you may be familiar with-a amn who claims something can not be done should get ouy of the way of the man who is doing ot.:D

Mike Flanagan

15-Apr-2003, 07:07 AM

Hi Kwan

Originally posted by Kwan Jang
-In reply to Mr. Flanigan's comments,

No need to be so formal, just plain old "Mike" will be fine.

-First, the point not on merideans or documented in TCM are known as MUE's or "extraordinary points". These points do fit the definition of a nerve center or pp by western medicine and are just as vakid. Apparently, TCM had either ignored or not discovered them for their uses.

There are extra-meridian points within TCM, but as for these modern MUE's I'm not sure who decides whether a newly discovered 'interesting' point is a MUE or not, nor whether there is any consensus of opinion. But I do know that there are some very effective points that do not appear in any of the texts on chinese medicine that I possess. Take Lung 5 for example, or rather the point that many martial artists claim is Lung 5. It is a good 3 sun (anatomical units) away from the real Lung 5, that' quite a distance when you're discussing pressure points. But why do people use that point instead of the real classical Lung 5? Because it works a hell of a lot better. So we just gloss over the 'theory' a bit there. You call the MUE's 'nerve centres' or 'western pp'. I'm not entirely surely what you mean by those terms. 'Nerve centre' makes me think of nerve ganglia, but there aren't that many of those in the body. Perhaps you mean junctions of nerves? Personally I prefer to think of points where nerves are accessible and can be squashed between your fist/hand/weapon and underlying tissues (the hammer and anvil effect). The ulnar nerve in the upper arm for example can be usefully accessed along its length and not just at the classical point Heart 2.

The end result is that people use points that were not used in classical TCM and yet still quote TCM theory to explain why they work. Gilding the lilly somewhat in my opinion.

-Second, if you want to be technical(I was basiccly addressing at least some people w/ less knowledge or background in this area, so I was greatly simplifying things), you are correct in saying that pp's are not DIRECTLY responsble for the feflex response that I quoted> However, if memory serves me (my college courses in physiology and kinesiology were 15+ years ago, si I'll trust in you to correct me if I'm mistaken), these nerve centers are the juncture points(I've forgotten the technical term) for this to occur.

Well I may be mistaken but I have not read anything in medical literature to suggest that the reflex arc has anything to do with pressure points, whatever definition you're using for 'pressure points'. I'd be interested to see any medical literature that does support this idea. The important part of the reflex arc occurs at the spinal cord, where sensory signals are translated into motor signals to various muscles, without reference to the brain. Granted, the crossed extensor reflex is a slightly different thing. It can be produced by directly attacking a pressure point, but it is the old 'Lung 5' which as I've already pointed out is not a classical tsubo (acupuncture point).

Logically, this makes sense since stimulation of these points disrupts their function.

In what sense are you saying it disrupts their function? A modern medical sense? A TCM energetic sense? I have yet to read a book on TCM that describes how energetic functions are affected by violently attacking tsubos. Unless of course one is reading a book by a modern martial arts master who is completely misquoting TCM.

Third, as far as the effects of pp KO's being the power of suggestion, I have osed these more than once as a VERY successful alternative to causing severe harm to drop the unwilling and uncooperative.

I didn't mean to imply that all such KO's are a result of suggestion, but in some of those I've seen that is clearly the case. I have videos that show pp KO's in which the victim was helped to the floor by volunteers, seemingly because he wasn't actually going to fall over of his own accord. And like I said originally, I know people who have not succumbed to some master's best attempts to KO them, even though they were bashing the victims really quite hard.

I do agree w/ you that it is unwise and can cause serious problems to do full KO's or do partial ones w/ repetition. I have been injured by one Grandmaster)possibly the same one you refer to) in a seminar byhim not following his own rules of safety. This is why I do continue to work w/ some of his upper dans, but I will not let him touch me(it required 8 wks for me to use my wrist after he used me to demonstrate in a 3-hour seminar, and a year and a half-and help- before fully healed, I don't mean to whine, but you expect a certain amount of trust when you get "volunteered" for such things.

Was the damage caused energetically, or because he smacked you too hard?

-Finally, as far as somene not wanting to use you as their demonsrtator/uke/whipping boy, I'd say count your blessings. Seriously, this could be attributed to fears of liability to not liking your attitude and not wanting to show you extras that were not part of the seminar package you paid for.

I'm sorry, that simply wasn't the case. I had no direct communication with the master in question. I did not show a bad attitude. At that time I had nothing but respect for 'grandmasters'. It is only by their words and deeds (and in some cases their unwillingness to demonstrate what they claim they can do) that I have come to consider some of them charlatans. In this case the grandmaster offered, of his own free will, to show a no touch KO. He then retracted the offer. He was going to do some of his standard KO's anyway, so there shouldn't have been any liability issues. No, he chickened out, plain and simple.

I have seen Leon Jay do non-touch KO's on people and gave them no expectation of what to expect. I have experimented w/ this myself and have been successful(dan-students can be fun to sacrifice for learning. LOL), but have found that I must fully relax to pull this off and under stress or tension/pressure, my success is diminished. There is an old Chinese saying you may be familiar with-a amn who claims something can not be done should get ouy of the way of the man who is doing ot.:D

Can you describe the process by which you achieve the no touch KO?

Personally I'll believe it can be done when I see it done on a non-compliant individual. And, no disrespect meant, but I won't get out of the way of 'the man who is doing it'. Not until he proves it to me, at which point I will become his most devoted student. So if anyone wants to knock me out without hitting me, well you know where I live.

(Please note that the offer is not open to people who do no touch KO's by chucking a brick at the victims head, or farting at them - these sort of KO's I can do myself already thanks).

I don't mean to be disrespectful Kwan, but I fear you have been fed some degree of pseudo-science by your own teachers. TCM is an art, not a science. When people start throwing scientific terms around with TCM, that is when your alarm bells should start ringing.

Respectfully,

Mike

Kwan Jang

16-Apr-2003, 04:23 AM

-I am in a hurry, so my reply will be short(for once). When I have more time, I will give a more complete one( and probably bore everyone). My educational background includes being accepted to and beginning work on my master's in kinesiology(I dropped out of that program, but that is a different story), so while a little rusty, I'm pretty good at spotting the pseudo-science. Also, I am not a student of Mr. Dillman or other pp seminar instructors, though I do play w/ some of his master-level students. I use him for reference because he has what I've seen as the best cross use of east and west in the MA media. I have seen much more practical application used by Tom Patire in his CDT system for tactical trainers. Very good nerve disruption material. I've also gotten good stuff from the gentleman in charge ofStanford University's pilot program in creating a dept. in Life Force Sciences. Finally, you're probably closer to Leon Jay than to me, but if you're willing to do some no-touch work w/ him, you can ask. If you're ever in the Nashville area, I'll be happy to show you in person at least some no touch nerve disruption, and maybe even a KO(I even promise to NOT use a brick), however, I don't intend on making any trips to England in the near future. Also, no offense, but if I prove it, you still have to go home:D

pesilat

16-Apr-2003, 05:12 AM

Originally posted by Kwan Jang
If you're ever in the Nashville area, I'll be happy to show you in person at least some no touch nerve disruption, and maybe even a KO(I even promise to NOT use a brick

Hey ... is this an open invitation? I'm not too far from Nashville. Not sure when I'd be able to make it down there, but a trip in the not-too-distant future wouldn't be inconceivable.

I freely admit that I'm pretty skeptical about no touch KO ... but I'm open-minded enough to be a guinea pig if you're willing :)

Or, if you're ever in or near Louisville, feel free to contact me.

Mike

Cain

16-Apr-2003, 08:09 AM

No touch KO?!?!?!

Something I am not aware of and will have a hard time believing it.....

|Cain|

Mike Flanagan

16-Apr-2003, 11:49 AM

Hi Kwan

Originally posted by Kwan Jang
-I am in a hurry, so my reply will be short(for once). When I have more time, I will give a more complete one( and probably bore everyone).

You won't bore me, I'd definitely welcome an in-depth discussion.

My educational background includes being accepted to and beginning work on my master's in kinesiology(I dropped out of that program, but that is a different story), so while a little rusty, I'm pretty good at spotting the pseudo-science.

That's impressive enough but, to be honest, an argument should rest on its own merit rather than on the qualifications or reputation of the person making the argument. In your previous post you talked about 'the definition of nerve centres and pressure points by western medicine' but I simply don't understand what these terms mean in from the point of view of modern medicine. A 'nerve centre' could mean many things. As for 'pressure points', the only pressure points I know of in modern medicine are points that are pressed in first aid to stem blood supply, in a manner similar to a tourniqet. For example, the femoral artery can be compressed in the inguinal crease in order to restrict blood supply to the leg, if someone is bleeding heavily from the leg. I'm pretty sure this isn't the sort of pressure point you mean. I'm not aware of any all encompassing modern medical definition of the tsubos of oriental medicine or the vital points of martial arts.

So, without rigorous and widely accepted definitions, terms such as 'nerve centre' and 'pressure point' might sound sciency but don't actually mean anything at all. That sounds like pseudo-science to me. I realise this is not intentional on your part so I'd welcome any further information on these points.

I have seen much more practical application used by Tom Patire in his CDT system for tactical trainers. Very good nerve disruption material.

This sounds interesting, I'll see if I can find out more about him.

Finally, you're probably closer to Leon Jay than to me, but if you're willing to do some no-touch work w/ him, you can ask. If you're ever in the Nashville area, I'll be happy to show you in person at least some no touch nerve disruption, and maybe even a KO(I even promise to NOT use a brick), however, I don't intend on making any trips to England in the near future. Also, no offense, but if I prove it, you still have to go home:D

I've never met Leon Jay but I have every respect for him. That said, if he could reliably knock people who aren't his own students out without touching them I reckon there'd be a long queue at his door. Martial artists in the UK would flock to him in droves. I'm not aware of that happening yet.

I've already had one offer to be rendered unconscious in this manner, but then the offer was retracted for reasons best known to the grandmaster who made the offer. That's all the evidence I need.

Thanks for an interesting discussion,

Mike

Kwan Jang

19-Apr-2003, 04:59 PM

-Hello Mike(s), Ihave been busy dealing w/ taxes and this month is my own school's 10th anniversary, so my wife has had me doing special events almost daily. I needed a holiday weekend just to have time to reply. Before I address your (Mike Flanagan) points, I want to say after more carefully reading your previous posts and looking up your website, I find that we have a lot of interests in common and I feel that we can probably both benefit by sharing insights, whether we always agree or not, 1)As far as the reflex net goes(and I still am truly open to correction if I'm off on this), I am still using my original posts definition of a pp(which is very similar to what you had previously posted on page 5). Let me give an example of what I mean as a more "western medical perspective". If a stimuli(say burn, since that is what we strarted with) is picked up on, say an auxillary branch of the radial nerve, the signal is transmitted up to the main branch, where those points connect is what we in MA call pp's. This then moves up to the spine(basically the CNS switchboard) to c-6(if I remember correctly-could be c-5). If I am mistaken about the responsible process, let me know, but it seems to me we are basically talking about the same process and the difference is more one of semantics, if it is, then I'm getting tired of going around on this merry-go-round(Mommy, I'm dizzy and want to get off!:) :)

Kwan Jang

19-Apr-2003, 05:38 PM

-Sorry, I was interuped. To continue my response to Mike F. 2)Let me re-state that I am not a member of DKI and my school is not one of their affiliate network. I have found their materials(books, vids, ect.) very useful. I have espescially found playing and sharing w/ some of their master instructors to be fun and rewarding(the one's I play w/ have been great guys w/ a lot to share). As far as Mr. Dillman straying from TCM, as it has been explained to me, they use TCM terms as a more common language/reference since most literature on the subject, especially any older MA texts, use these terms. Also, they use TCM as a general roadmap. One thing I really respect about what they are doing is that they are using not just TCM, and older texts, but are using more modern, western scienticic resourses to learn more and grow. Going into university ex. phys. labs and kinesiology labs and trying to see what is really going on. Doing medical studies(at least when they can get the proper people to play). As an example, DKI uses the TCM term of the 5 elements. While the periodic table goes a LOT higher than five, and I don't recall any of the TCM onews on the table, the theory as a metaphor to describe the dynamics between the points is just as valid. I have noticed that in some of DKI's new material, their use of relations between elements and either increasing or decreasing the effectiveness of (for instance) finger locks does not follow along w/TCM. They claim (and I feel) they are not being bound by tradition and are just following where the evidence and experimentatioon leads . This is just the scientific method at work. TCM may give a map of the terrain to follow, but the map is not the terrain, and by exploring with an open mind, we learn and grow. Mike, with your formal knowledge of TCM, feel free to point out where they do deviate from the map, I really am interested to know.

Kwan Jang

19-Apr-2003, 06:09 PM

Sorry. again. I am still pretty much a novice on posting on the web and get bumped a lot(especially on such long winded, boring posts), when they keep flashing the warning sign, I fear I'm going to lose what I've typed and end it.(If more experieced posters know any tricks of the trade, I'm listening/reading). Back to Mike F. (don't worry Mr.Castro, I willrespond to you too). 3) Tom Patire and his CDT system for tactical training can be found at CDT-Training. com and the NAPMA video series has segments of his seminars from one of their instructors conferences. Really good material. 4)As far as "No touch KO's" are concerned, Let me start by saying that MY main use off pp's has been to enhance my grappling. I have used Tuite to attack a point tomanipulate a joint with outstanding success against some outstanding practitioners of BJJ, submission grappling, and NHB. They were amazed that how easily I was able to break theri hold or reverse them w/little or no effort. Especially, when they were sure they had me(this has backfired once or twice by my being over-confident and waiting too long and I've been caught). I do use kyusho, to enhance my hand strike combos, mainly in trapping and in kenpo. This is not my specialty, but it has worked very well for me against opponents that either were inferior at set-point control or I've closed the gap in well w/, or I'm countering. When it comes to energy projection, I have been intrigued with this for years and have studied chi gung/kundalini to develop my self and have went to seminars or trained in Quantum Touch, reiki, therapeutic touch(a method that is now common training for RN's in Canada, so I'm told). I have read about and talked to people who have studied w/ Ueshiba, Hatsumii, and others who are said to be able to accomplish quite a bit in this area. At first, I was quite skeptical, and still will attribute some to exagerration. Still, after the weirdness of going through the greater kan and li(kundalini), I don't discount anything anymore. I know that both UC San Fransisco and Stanford have put considerable resources into studies on these topics, and that a lot of it follows predictions of the Uncertainty principle in Quantum mechanics(and though higher physics is aa hobby of mine, I am admiiedly more of a "general relativity kind of guy' than a ' special relativity guy").

Kwan Jang

19-Apr-2003, 07:19 PM

Argg! That is so frustrating. I was almost finished and they bumped me(HELP). continuing w/ energy projection. I have had an interest in this area for many years. I have been/still am a practioner of chi gung and kudalini. I have either trained in or attended seminars in Quantum touch, reiki, and therapeutic touch (a method that I'm told is now a common part of training for RN's in Canada). I know that both UC San Francisco and Stanford have put considerable resources to study this area, and I've read some of their findings. -Having said this, my main use of pp's is in grappling. Stmulate the point to attack the joint. I have had awesome success w/ this against top tier practitioners of BJJ, NHB, and submission grappling. They have been amazed how I have virtuously effortlessly broke their submission hold or revered on them w/ ease. (I must admit that I've been caught once or twice by underestimating my opponent and waitin to long, overconfidence can get us all). I do use pp strikes(kyusho) very effectively in trapping, or to enhance kenpo couner-strike combos. Also, if my opponent is inferior at set-point control, if I bridge the gap well, I can set him up for this.Before I go into energy projection, let me say that I would never rely on this for combat conditions, but I have enjoyed experimenting/playing with this at different levels for years. In other words, I use it for me to play and grow, it's NOT part of the cirriculum. - I have been doing close proximity, no-touch disuptions of the energy/nervous system for years and completely confident in my ability to demonstrate this on anyone, skeptics are welcome, and will openly do so in public. For the last year or so, I've been playing w/ and refining energy work at greater distances that actually move the other person(no, I don't think I'm a jedi, but it's fun to explore) and I'm etting better and better results. I had read for years and heard from witnesses what men like Ueshiba and Hatsumi were capable of. I thought it was either b.s. or greatly exagerated. After the wierdness when I went through the greater kan and li/kundalini, I've since learned to be more open to at least the possibilities. I'm getting closer to the section that I got bumped before when I really got into the "no-touch KO's", so rather than lose it I'm going to post this and come back.

Kwan Jang

19-Apr-2003, 07:36 PM

-My own experiences with "no touch KO's" comes from Leon Jay. I have personally experienced a light touch KO from him and seen him do this easily on request, I have personally observed him perform two no-touches from a considerable distance. I know for certain that at least one of the uke's were not cooperative and had no expectations. I did approach Leon afterwards about what was involved and the how-to's. Now realize that I am one of the senoir master-level students of a BLACK BELT HALL OF FAME instructor that both he and his father have worked with and known for decades. I have also been Leon's whi[[ing boy/uke at seminars several times. It waasn't until he knew that I had went through the kundalin?greater kan and li and had one of Mr. Dillman's senior instructors(8th dan) vouch for me that he offered to start to ' show me the ropes" of what was involved. After the seminar; Leon, myself, and a couple of the DKI masters stayed for nearly two hours to exchange and play. Several reasonably advanced dans in DKI were gone before we could begin to play(whether or not at other sessions they learn this or not, I don't know, but at least my perception was that they were being avoided at this time). BTW-my wife, who was riding w/ me was allowed to watch. Uh-oh, be back in a minute.

Kwan Jang

19-Apr-2003, 08:07 PM

(cont. from above)-Like a kid w/ a new toy, I could not wait to take this "home" and play. -Let me note here that my school is in the heart of the southern "bible belt" and that I struggle hard enough to overcome thinly veiled racism against anything originating from an eastern culture. If I were to teach or demonstrate energy work or projection to the public or even my general students, I fear that there would be crosses burning on my lawn every night and some fool would try to burn me at the stake at least once a week. So when I experiment and play in these areas, I only do it w/ some of my adult dan students who are kind of used to Kwan Jang Nim David being a little eccentric, but KNOW iwill not do anything to injre them. They have enough trust that I cando things w/o telling them what I'm up to, so I can get a more honest and objective evaluation if things are working or not. II also can see how some of the Gm's feats get exagerrated as I have been accused of lifting cars w/my mind by one 20ish 1st degree who obviously has watched too much STAR WARS. As a former champion strength athlete, he HAS seen me lift an end of a car, but it was definitely NOT a "no touch" technique). Anyway, when I got back to my lab rats(err, black belts), I found that I was having very little success pulling off what I'd done in the Sat. play session. As I' keep trying harder and harder and straining, my wife is giggling at me beneath her breath. (after making the mistake of giving her "the look" that any thinking husband would know may work on kids. It's utter folly to give to your wife). She proceeded to explain to her muscle-head husband(no she didn't call me that) that he is not relaxing enough and trying too hard to force it and this will never work with that kind of approach. I should mention that my wife is a3rd dan who was a former top-ren ranked competitor on the NASKA circuit and has been teaching both yoga and tai chi for years now. She then proceeded to demonstrate on one of my other 3rd dans(who really didn't know what the purpose of all this was about) the energy buildup connecting what Leon showed us witha sequence from the yang short form. At 15 feet away, she put Allen out cold. I mean he dropped-big time. Not only did he not expect it, but really neither did we. We saw him swaying, but thought it was simply him fllowing her movements w/ her eyes. This kind of spooked her, but I have been carefully at play in the two months since. I never meant to bring our discussion of pp's to this area, but when you brought this up, I (probably unwisely) impulsively responded that I had personal experience that differed. Yikes. Be back to wrap it all up.

Kwan Jang

19-Apr-2003, 08:33 PM

-Finally, Iwant to add to comments of GM's avoiding doing this. I don't know what is going on here or what his motivation was. He may have thought you might figure out too much. He might have been unsure of his ability at that time(this is a new area that I don't believe anyones gotten down really well or consistantly yet). Maybe he can't pull it off as you believe, and has seen others do tit and tries to fake it. I honestly don't know in this instance. What I do know is that I've seen and experienced enough to make this worthwhile for me to play and experiment with. As far as your comments about Leon and how if he could do this, people would be knocking down his doors. I know from experience that he's pretty guarded in this area and I know that many would see this as something against his crdibility. It may also require having someone having gone through at least the lesser kan and li to amke some of this work, as well. I honestly don't know that as a fact, but the ones that I've observed playing w/ this all have went this far at least. I know for myself, I somewhat regret helping to open this can of worms because to many on this board, it's most likely greatly damaged my credibility. That I would both have anything to do with or experiment in this area would mean to many that I'm either a nut or full of B.S., or both. This little section of my nearly life-long study of the arts and insight and opinions that I share will have less value to some now, I'm sure. _Before I forget, Mike Castro asked about coming down to play, and that is open. If you want to, I will sahre with you, however, I do ask that it's more quietly done and not in front of my regular student body. If we set up a time w/ my adult dans to play, that's fine, I just don't want the nightly burning cross/weenie-roast. Though on second thouth that could be good for fire walks, haven't done one in a while(let's not get into that one, please). Mr.Castro, you may be closer to either Will Higgenbotham(DKI 8th dan) or Jim Corn(DKI 7th dan-and there guy who is probably there most avid experimenter in energy production and use of sound). You can get their locations and contact info on the www.kyusho.com website. They are pretty open about this stuff and comfortable withit in public. I still am open for instructors as well.

pesilat

19-Apr-2003, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by Kwan Jang
Sorry. again. I am still pretty much a novice on posting on the web and get bumped a lot(especially on such long winded, boring posts), when they keep flashing the warning sign, I fear I'm going to lose what I've typed and end it.(If more experieced posters know any tricks of the trade, I'm listening/reading).

When it says you're going to get disconnected, ignore it. Let it disconnect you. You can keep typing your post and not worry about it. Just make sure to reconnect before you try to post it.

Another trick is to right click on the text box and "Select All" then right click and "Copy" then paste it into your text editor (i.e.: notepad or whatever) and save it. You can type the whole thing in notepad then copy/paste.

But, generally, you can just keep typing, then reconnect, and post the message :)

Mike

pesilat

19-Apr-2003, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Kwan Jang
Before I forget, Mike Castro asked about coming down to play, and that is open. If you want to, I will sahre with you, however, I do ask that it's more quietly done and not in front of my regular student body. If we set up a time w/ my adult dans to play, that's fine, I just don't want the nightly burning cross/weenie-roast.

Not a problem at all :)

Mr.Castro, you may be closer to either Will Higgenbotham(DKI 8th dan) or Jim Corn(DKI 7th dan-and there guy who is probably there most avid experimenter in energy production and use of sound). You can get their locations and contact info on the www.kyusho.com website. They are pretty open about this stuff and comfortable withit in public. I still am open for instructors as well.

I've actually known Will for a few years and met Jim a couple of years back at an event Will was hosting. It was supposed to be a seminar with Ed Melaugh (sp?) but Ed got snowed in and couldn't make it. Will had already paid for the room for a half day and we had a handful of instructors in various things there, so we all chipped in to cover the cost of the room, then several instructors got up and taught. One of my instructors, Prof. Joe Lansdale taught some balance disruption from his system of Shen Chuan, and then he asked me to get up and teach some stick work, which I did. It was a good time :)

And, last year (or maybe it was '01) another one of my instructors, Guru Ken Pannell, was teaching a knife workshop at a dojo there in Nashville run by Steve Cooper (I think that's the guy's name). I was there helping Guru Ken teach.

Any chance you and I've already met somewhere in person?

Mike

BlueDragon1981

22-Apr-2003, 10:33 PM

The style I study has a little bit to do with presure points. It also has joint locks and throws in it. Lots of Aiki. George Dillman I would say knows a great deal about Presure points.

Trent Tiemeyer

27-Apr-2003, 06:27 AM

UFC Rules.

Butting with the head.

Eye gouging of any kind.

Biting.

Hair pulling.

Fish hooking.

Groin attacks of any kind.

Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.

Small joint manipulation.

Striking to the spine or the back of the head.

Striking downward using the point of the elbow.

Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.

Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.

Grabbing the clavicle.

Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.

Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.

Stomping a grounded opponent.

Kicking to the kidney with the heel.

Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.

Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.

Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.

Spitting at an opponent.

Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.

Holding the ropes or the fence.

Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.

Attacking an opponent on or during the break.

Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.

Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.

Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.

Interference by the corner.

Throwing in the towel during competition.

I see no mention of pressure points here.

Brad Ellin

27-Apr-2003, 08:57 AM

What do UFC rules have to do with pressure points? Go back to first post and read. Personally, UFC rules mean nothing to me, if I get in a fight, I assume the other person is trying to kill me. If the opportunity to use PPs or nerve strikes or whatever label you want to stick on them comes up, you bet your sweet patootie I'll use them. Along with every other illegal move against the rules.

Trent Tiemeyer

28-Apr-2003, 04:53 AM

That was a response to the presumption earlier IN THIS THREAD that the UFC bans pressure points.

Brad Ellin

28-Apr-2003, 08:26 AM

Okey Dokey. Have to re-read, because I must have missed it. Thanks.

Trent Tiemeyer

29-Apr-2003, 02:12 AM

No problem. I should have quoted. It's a big thread.

Knight_Errant

05-Jun-2003, 11:39 PM

It does raise the interestin issue of how we represent attacks on pressure points in our sparring. Gloves are obviously an encumbrance... actually striking your loyal uke's pressure points seems to be a bit heavy.

Jags

30-Jun-2003, 06:02 PM

ppl, u r discussing something that should be kept secret among dojos, unless dicussed fromarly. I think u r trying to learn more but this isn't quite the way, maybe a one2one email is better.

Personally, if u want 2 know about how time of day effects the pressure points email me
on Kandola88@yahoo.com

p.s U MUST UNDERSTAND U JUST CANT TELL EVRYONE

YODA

30-Jun-2003, 06:05 PM

Bwaaaahahahaaaaaaaaa.........

Keep it secret - I'm not worthy :D

Bwaaaahahahaaaaaaaaa.........

Andrew Green

30-Jun-2003, 06:26 PM

Good rule of thumb:

Secrets generally don't work, if they did they wouldn't have stayed secret.

YODA

30-Jun-2003, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Andrew Green
Good rule of thumb:

Secrets generally don't work, if they did they wouldn't have stayed secret.

Tadaaaaaa............ :D

SoKKlab

30-Jun-2003, 06:50 PM

I haven't read every post in this thread so apologies if this has already been mentioned, But I am surprised that the name Earl Montaigue hasn't been mentioned. He's a pretty legitimate
authority on the subject with regards to the usage
of Chin Na within Bagua, Tai Chi Chuan etc etc.
His website is
www.taijiworld.com

SoKKlab

30-Jun-2003, 06:51 PM

Forgot to mention that obviously Pressure Points are a very big part of Chin Na etc. In fact Montaigue has alot of Vtapes on the subject...

Jags

30-Jun-2003, 07:03 PM

if u think secrests dont work fine, ok fine.
erm. ..pressure points r junctions where the chi energy builds and then starts traveling round the body again.
Happy!!!!!!!!!!!

wanna no more
Kandola@yaho.com

YODA

30-Jun-2003, 07:12 PM

No - not happy- don't believe it - sorry.

Jags

30-Jun-2003, 07:15 PM

when u dont believe something it is only because you believe something else, what do u believe?

YODA

30-Jun-2003, 07:17 PM

when u dont believe something it is only because you believe something else, what do u believe?

Sorry - that makes no sense whatsoever.

Jags

30-Jun-2003, 07:42 PM

why dont u believe wat i said, it must be because u believe something else wat do u think?

Andrew Green

30-Jun-2003, 07:50 PM

Do you believe my watch is inhabbited by a gremlin that changes the time on the face? He is invisible and uses magic to conceal himself in order to prevent anyone from being able to see him.

Why or why not?

pgm316

30-Jun-2003, 07:52 PM

I'd take the watch back! ;)

Jags

30-Jun-2003, 07:52 PM

i think not, because i beleiv that there is a mechanism iside ur watch either quartz, 21 jewel (like mine) or a kenetic aut relay.
These mechanisms each with thee own way changes the time on te face (also digital watches sorry ppl, i keep thinking of anologue ones)

Jags

30-Jun-2003, 07:53 PM

lol!!! pgma

YODA

30-Jun-2003, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by Jags
why dont u believe wat i said, it must be because u believe something else wat do u think?

...or because my common sense brain tells me your wrong?

The something else I believe in this case is that pressure points are NOT where Chi "builds." I believe that pressure points in the main are a fallacy contrived by people looking for an easy alternative to hard athletic training - or by people looking to make a fast buck of those people.

Andrew Green

30-Jun-2003, 07:57 PM

On a side note, if the watch won't give you the correct time of day once a month, you got a female gremlin.

Jags, most people believe the same sort of thing about the body. No mystical chi energy, no chi junctions, just mechanics

YODA

30-Jun-2003, 07:59 PM

Yeah Andrew - but mechanics doesn't sell very well to those looking for the ancient secret of the great mumbo jumbo tree :D

Andrew Green

30-Jun-2003, 08:01 PM

In that case for the low price of 36 easy payments of $108 I'll sell you a secret decoder ring. :D

YODA

30-Jun-2003, 08:02 PM

ROFLMAO :D

SoKKlab

30-Jun-2003, 09:45 PM

'I believe that pressure points in the main are a fallacy contrived by people looking for an easy alternative to hard athletic training -or by people looking to make a fast buck of those people.'

I agree that there are alot of Charlatans making alot of money out of 'Pressure Points' tactics and that even if you do know alot about them, you still have to train very hard to be able to use them within a fighting scenario.

I recently saw one video, which fortunately I didn't pay good money for, where the 'Master' was said to be hurting the student by Mind Control and doing Pressure Points by the same method of directing the power of the Ki to different parts of the students body...Strewth Mind Fu-Brain Jitsu...

Earlier I mentioned the Australian Bagua Tai Chi Chuan teacher Earl Montaigue. He's very outspoken about Charlatanism within Martial Artistry and Pressure point scenarios in general. I don't practice those (Bagua, Tai Chi Chuan, Kyushu Jitsu etc) arts but do have a couple of his tapes and they are very good, dealing with the practical aspects of Pressure points and not the mumbo-jumbo.

Also a very good book that deals in part with the subject is Zhao Da Yuan's 'Practical Chin Na' (Unique). It is the one of the best books on Chin Na that I've ever read and has some excellent notes on Basic Pressure points, which all work and none of that, 'Only hit this at quarter past three on a Saturday before a full moon' sort of stuff either....

SoKKlab

30-Jun-2003, 09:47 PM

Sorry the first bit of the last posting is Yodas words as a quote, not my words...

YODA

30-Jun-2003, 09:47 PM

Yes - I've got some of Earl's stuff too.

SoKKlab

30-Jun-2003, 09:51 PM

Fantastic,
Someone with some common sense...

pgm316

30-Jun-2003, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by YODA
...or because my common sense brain tells me your wrong?

The something else I believe in this case is that pressure points are NOT where Chi "builds." I believe that pressure points in the main are a fallacy contrived by people looking for an easy alternative to hard athletic training - or by people looking to make a fast buck of those people.

I find the whole chi thing hard to believe, it seems to go against modern medicine etc. But body mechanics are very complicated, especcially hundreds of years ago. So maybe theres a lot of truth to what they teach, but the way they explain it is wrong. A bit like somebody making up a supernatural way for a car to work, they might have got that wrong, but if they know how to work the car thats what really matters. If you know what I'm getting at :confused:

YODA

30-Jun-2003, 10:54 PM

Yes - I know exactly what you're getting at. :D

Andy Murray

30-Jun-2003, 11:02 PM

Whatever you believe in, certain parts of the body are more effective to hit than others, whether you are a hard training Martial Athlete, or not.

YODA

30-Jun-2003, 11:05 PM

Can't argue with that Andy. :D

Andy Murray

30-Jun-2003, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by YODA
Can't argue with that Andy. :D

There are no certainties any more! :rolleyes:

YODA

30-Jun-2003, 11:12 PM

LOL!

mattsylvester

09-Sep-2003, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by YODA
...or because my common sense brain tells me your wrong?

The something else I believe in this case is that pressure points are NOT where Chi "builds." I believe that pressure points in the main are a fallacy contrived by people looking for an easy alternative to hard athletic training - or by people looking to make a fast buck of those people.

Chi and internal energy/whatever aside, you say "in the main". Do you believe that there are pressure points but that people have built on the hype e.g., using TCM to confuse and mystify the issue? I've been knocked out by having the inside of my legs kicked. There was no shock to the brain (apart from the 'oh dammit' factor). How would you explain that? (Please be kind :)).

Kwan Jang

13-Sep-2003, 06:48 AM

-I know that I am in the minority on this one, but I really do believe in both pressure points and chi/ki, as well as chakras. The difference between me and many others who share my beliefs is that I don't mind using some of the more "western" terms for them as well. For example, while some may term it chakras, I can call it that or I may refer to it as the endocrine system. Chi/ki is a broad base subject, but in this context, I just as easily refer to it as the central nervous system. Pressure points? Nerve centers.
-The reason many use TCM and asian terms for this is that most early "research" was done in this context and you can most easily find refference and info, espescially in martial terms, in this context. I also feel that we have merely begun to scratch the surface in the potential here. Is it STAR WARS, IMO, no. And there will always be the second-rate stage magicians who will try to capitalize on this, but there are others who are legitimately trying to explore this. I support this. Just like the charlatans, there will always be some who will never except this becuase it does not fit there concepts of reality. Even if given proof, they would deny it. For example, I live in the buckle of the southern "Bible belt". In the local newspaper's letters to the editor, at least once per week, someone writes a letter criticizing evolution and how the "creation theory" has been proven beyond any doubt by "Christian scientists". Now, I happen to even be a Christian, but these fools loopholes of logic are big enough to have their own zip codes.
-My point (long day, must go to bed) is that if you come to an idea with a belief system that allows no room for any other possibility, you will find a way to shut down any other idea or evidence that does not fit your model of belief. Going back to my example; "the world is only 5,000 years old since this is what is siad in Genesis" and "all the means used my those scientists are wrong". These people will fabricate enough pseudo-science to convince others of their belief system who may lack much education and need to be reassured to stay w/ their belief. Yet, I have always wondered how the advocates of this particular tract of thought respond if they stand in a science museum in front of a complte dinosaur skeleton.
-I have used pp's for years very effectively in grappling and while I feel it is a lower percentage tech. in striking, I still often find it effective there too. For those who choose to dispute it; fine, gives me one more thing that I and my students can stay ahead of them on.

tai-gip

16-Sep-2003, 11:52 PM

Pressure points are fun.. and of course allow you to releive mussle stress and be good at massage ..:D

In terms of fighting its a matter of personal choice as they are no more difficult than correctly performing most moves though granted the target area is small ..for those who study aikijutsu and allow the attackers strike to just barely touch them before defending its the same type of mind set just a different application..
Also effective when you want to disable an attacker without causing perminant damage this is in terms of striking

Manipulating pressure points in a grapple is a given..

Chris J.

21-Sep-2003, 01:11 AM

Hello all,
Mostly I lurk. Today I think I will reply.

Some years ago I heard about Dillman's pressure point books and purchased them. They created many more questions in my mind than they answered, and so I joined various discussion groups to obtain some direction and objectivity.

During the course of my discussions it became obvious that many people were making many claims about how and why these things worked; and almost none of it was verifyable in the scientific sense. (!)

This might not bother folks, but lets look at the meaning of the wors 'science' for a moment. It means that strenuous testing is carried out to deliberately disprove an idea and only after this exhaustive gauntlett has been run are the ideas reasonable taken as being likely. Even after acceptance, and idea can later come under delibrate attack at any time and can thus be disproven; ideas that persist through all of this tend to be very likely to be true, or at least close to true.

I decided that I had no idea what made the nervous system function as it does, and therefore had no way of even beginning to assess the various theories that were out there. I made it my mission in life to become a subject matter expert.

After first generally studying anatomy and poriferal nerve function, I moved into general physiology of the different synergistic aspects of the autonomic nervous system (i.e., the sympathetic and parasympathetic sub-systems). Still more information was needed and so studying the central nervous system ensued, the spinal network and the brain, etc. I studied reflex arcs, pain gating, phantom pain, and many many other related topics until I was ready to read the books that were pertainent to my questions; all of this took over 2 years.

The books that were recommended to me were first Anatomy of Manual Dexterity, and then Thalamus Vol.1 & 2. These books were EXTREMELY difficult to read because of highly specialized terms that even most doctors would have had to look up in order to understand.

After having run the workings of the brain and poriferal nervous system down with reference to pressure points and knock outs, etc., I can say that I understand a good deal about how these things work in medical terms.

So I will address your initial question about what we teach about pressure points in class.

It is useless to teach point locations without first teaching a valid and effective delivery system; it just can not be made to work. Also, the ideas about different times of day making certain points more active is useless in combat. (Point of fact, Dillman et.al. got their information wrong on those times anyway).

Fighting using pressure points is beat taught by encorporating the ideas into the natural existing movements in the fighting system; the systems that are older were designed with these ideas in mind. Unfortunately many newer styles lost this information along the way and some of their inherent effectiveness is now diminished. It is best to first seek out the very oldest systems, and compare with the new, to see what has been lost. Much of the subtleties that were not well understood were eliminated from many styles.

Using the Chinese names of points is fine for reference; but always remember that these were named by people who intended to needle them not to strike them. The two are not the same, and the application is therefore not the same nor are the locations of effective strikes necessarily the same. In fact, it is totally not necessary to memorize a vast list of points and descriptions. If this interests you then fine, but it is not necessary.

The most useful areas to begin with are a small number of vital points, and also muscle points that yield reflex responses when they are traumatized or struck. These are so called reflex points. Typically reflex points are charicterized by a grouping of sensory cells that are called Golgi Tendon Organ cells (Golgi was a famous anatomist who has many different structures in the body named after him). These cells are found in skeletal muscles, typically in the upper and lower thord of a length of muscle, where the muscle begins to give way to either tendon connection. As the tissue thickens and toughens into the fibers of tendon, Golgi cells are interspaced between these fibers and serve to sense tearing of these fibers or other stress on the tissue. They then send pain signals to the spinal network, and these signals can give rise to instantly generated reflex movements that are pre-wired into the spinal cord.

It is most useful to note that these spinal reflexes operate independently of the brain; that is, they happen regardless of the intentions of the individual of the state of intoxication. Even if their brain does not feel the pain, their body reacts in response to a strike to such an area.

Because the brain is unaware of and unable to react to the instant change of balance, you can use these points to rob the individual of their leverage and therefore their strength. Also, you can steal away the force from their attack using these points.

To use them, study the human muscles that are available to you in most grappling or other fighting situations; find where the tendonous tissue begins and teach yourself to strike there while doing the normal fighting motions that you already do. No need to re-invent the wheel here, just look for likely candidates and try using them. It sometimes helps to roll the muscle as it is struck, sometimes it is not necessary depending on the anatomy. Strike muscle into bone, using the edges of ulnar and radial bone, or any bony protrusion that affords itself to you.

About Dillman's knock outs: Some work well enough, some only work because he hits hard enough that the head snaps sideways and the brain slaps up afainst the inside of the cranuim and is bruised. Some of what I have seen them do is outright fake (i.e., no-touch knock outs, etc.) In all cases their explanations of how and why the techniques work are less than complete, sometimes even doubtful. This is my somewhat educated opinion of course.

The actual cause of knock out due to neurological trauma from impact is generally the same, regardless if it was a vascular type of strike or simple a nerve strike; what happens in between is quite different though. In all cases where unconsciousness results, parts of the brain are oxygen starved and some cells die as a result.

IT IS IRRESPONSIBLE TO DELIBERATELY KNOCK A PERSON OUT IN TRAINING OR IN A DEMONSTRATION.

To understand the mechanism one must study the functions and interconnections of the Reticular Activating System (RAS), which is a diffuse array of nerve cells that pervades the sub thalamic areas of the brain and generally originates in the brain stem reticular core, or magnocellular core. The RAS is what keeps us awake; shutting it down knocks us out. Damaging it gives us seizures. ;)

-Chris A. Johnston

Mike Flanagan

21-Sep-2003, 07:15 AM

Hi Chris

Good to see you posting here.

So, given how much you've learned on the subject in the last few years, when are you going to write a book to explain it to the rest of us who don't have the in-depth neurological knowledge? I for one would be queuing up to buy it.

All the best,

Mike

Chris J.

21-Sep-2003, 08:10 AM

Hello Mike,
It really HAS been a long time! Good to hear from you again. A book, say you? No time for that; I am doing well just to post replies to lists, and so forth. ;)

But, if there is a particular aspect of the process that you want to know about, please just ask and I will find the answer if I have not already done so. Obviously there are some answers that might take a hell of a long time to research, but it is other people's questions that originally made me begin looking into this in the first place. I just hated having a situation where a beginning student could ask me a simple question about a technique that I could not answer to my own satisfacti0on. ;)

-Chris J.

David

21-Sep-2003, 09:32 AM

Excellent post Chris. I look forward to next year's ;)

Rgds,
David

Chris J.

21-Sep-2003, 06:05 PM

Hi,
Sorry about length. You can't put a dozen eggs in a small pocket after all, without making a mess.

-Chris J.

Chris J.

29-Sep-2003, 07:06 AM

Hello again,
Here is a brief explanation of the Chinese paradigm associated with the acupoints. It may be useful to you in steering your investigations into pressure points. Hopefully so. I am only including the bit about the acupoints. Sorry, again it is kind of long. ;)

-Chris J.

Acupoints, Extra points, Vital Points, Pressure Points, Trigger points, Reflex Points, and Chakra points

-Chris A. Johnston, 2003

OVERVIEW:
A contemporary study of the ancient eastern paradigms is underway, and much confusion exists with regard to exactly how these ideas might relate to the modern scientific construct. It seems that each individual has their own distinct idea about how the two systems are related, and the differences in view are often drastic. The purpose of this discourse is to bring into discussion the various different eastern paradigms without assigning any degree of validity out of hand. Time, and research, will illuminate the place of these ideas with respect to science.
ACUPOINTS:
While western medicine is generally based on the study of structure, scientific observation and the observation and classification of phenomena in concrete realistic terms, ancient eastern medical disciplines are quite different. The eastern systems are rooted in old philosophies and are generally much less concerned with particular anatomy. The body is viewed as a dynamic, interactive system of vital forces and fluids. In ancient eastern medicine the nervous system was unknown, and this was largely due to two important factors: the practice of dissecting deceased humans was forbidden, and also the microscope did not exist. There would have been no way to learn about the finer structures of the body.
A system of evaluation and description came about based largely on logic, theory and direct experimentation. Over the centuries this became what we know today as traditional acupuncture. In eastern countries such as China, Korea and Japan the body was viewed in terms of meridians through which vital life force flows, with discrete locations or points along these meridians. The locations of the meridians and point locations vary between countries, but the largest following is Chinese acupuncture.
The Traditional Chinese Acupuncture paradigm uses acupoints to control the flow of Chi throughout the body, and adjustments are made in order to restore balance in this way. The meridians number 12, one for each major organ, as follows: Lung, Large Intestine (Colon), Stomach, Spleen, Heart, Small Intestine, Bladder, Kidney, Pericardium, Triple Warmer/Heater, Gall Bladder and Liver (the Triple Warmer refers to the head, upper chest and abdomen as three heater systems). Also there are 2 major divisions down the centerline called Conception meridian and Governing Vessel meridian, and beyond those there are combinations of seemingly related points that already fall on a particular meridian that are grouped into several Extraordinary meridians. These are the Girding vessel, Penetrating Vessel, Yin Linking vessel, Yang Linking vessel, Yin Heel vessel and Yang Heel vessel. These extraordinary meridians were devised in order to explain relations between points that are on different meridians, but seem to work together influencing some bodily process.
Of the 361 standard acupoints a good many do not respond to strikes or pressure well, but are suitable only for needling treatments. There are other different sorts of points that occasionally correspond with acupoints. For instance some trigger points are also acupoints, some reflex points are also acupoints and some acupoints correspond with Chakra areas. Some acupoints are also considered vital points, while some respond to finger pressure and strikes and are thus pressure points.
The study of medicine has yielded an understanding of the human form as it is conceived, develops and matures. This is called the ontogeny of an organism. At critical points in the development of the human form, sudden changes occur that trigger growth and differentiation of cells into tissues and organs, and this happens in basically the same order that the evolution of the organism followed in the past. Thus it is said that ontogeny mirrors phylogeny. The mechanism that gives rise to this phenomenon has to do with gap junction transfer, that is, the movement of simple chemicals and ions through tiny tubes between the cells that make up a tissue. Chemicals are distributed that act as hormones for the cells of a tissue, activating cell growth or cell death responses as particular chemical densities are reached. In this way the sudden changes of the growing organism are orchestrated.
There are centers of ionic activity that have been termed organizing centers, and these areas exert a control over processes within a tissue as it grows via cellular hormones. As the organism becomes more complicated these organizing centers increase in number, and ultimately they remain as areas where a slightly increased magnetic flux can be measured with sufficiently sensitive equipment. In a mature organism these areas can be detected readily using SQID, or superconducting quantum interference device. These areas correspond with most of the standard acupoints very closely, which is surprising given the lack of any such technology when these points were first discovered and used. It should also be noted that areas that have not been used as acupoints also exhibit these properties.
So it can be said that many or most of the acupoints represent vestigial organizing centers that exhibit increased magnetic flux due to increased gap junction ionic transfer. While this may once have been useful in the orchestration of the growth and differentiation of the organism, still in maturity these areas have links with the tissues, organs and organ systems that they helped give rise to. This area of research may shed light on some of the more unexpected properties of some of the acupoints.

<Here there be charts...>

Chris J.

29-Sep-2003, 07:18 AM

Hello,
Here is the rest of the basic information in that article on other types of points. The article is currently being re-edited and some information added by another party; it should be on the Fighting Arts Magazine at some point soon. This was the rough draft.

-Chris J.

EXTRA POINTS:
There are 361 standard acupoints that fall on meridians, and beyond that there are a good number of Extra Points that do not fall on a specific meridian, and also there are many New Points that would fall into this category. The total number of New and Extra points varies according to the text used, but generally most texts show the use of between 20 and 50 of these points. Extra or new points are used by many acupuncturists to implement treatments along with the standard acupoints. Some Extra or new points correspond with vital points or trigger points, and some are associated closely with nerves. Some of the Extra or new points respond to strikes and finger pressure and are thus pressure points.
Various different structures are associated with acupoints. Some points correspond closely with a particular nerve branch that is exposed or accessible. Others correspond with a blood vessel, a golgi tendon organ or other muscle area, or a ligament or tendon. Certain acupoints owe their striking properties to areas of the brain that underlie them. Studying the crossectional anatomy of the acupoints, extra points or new points and their innervation reveals much about their function.
VITAL POINTS:
Vital points can be any location on the body that exerts powerful influence on the general workings of the body. Thus, many Acupoints are Vital points, as are some nerve points, Extra or new points, Pressure points, reflex points and even Chakra areas. Strikes directed at Vital points are often intended to be killing strikes. Plenty of references exist that provide precise locations of Vital points.
PRESSURE POINTS:
As previously mentioned Pressure Points are a subset of other points that respond to strikes and or other pressure. Some acupoints are also pressure points, as are some extra or new points, reflex points, nerve points and trigger points. The term Pressure Point has been used by many to refer to just about any other type of point. In general the term has become generic in that respect.
TRIGGER POINTS:
Trigger points are found in muscles exclusively. They are an exquisitely tender spot that can generally be correlated with one of a muscle’s golgi tendon organs. Golgi tendon organs are a group of specialized nerve cells that are often found in the top or bottom third of a muscle, and monitor the tension and condition of tendon and or ligament connections to bone and or muscle. Occasionally these points correspond with some other type of point, but this is often not the case. However they almost always will work as a reflex point although not all are readily accessible or useful in the combative sense.
Trigger Points are used in modern acupuncture to block the transmission of referred pain from one muscle to another. Pain referral is when the nervous system mistakes the location of a source of pain and an inflammatory response is sent to an area that may have no problem. Swelling and pain ensue, and other associated problems. Often treating the area where pain is felt strongly ignores the real source, and the pain continues to return because of this. Trigger point manipulation controls the pain gate mechanisms of the spinal cord that are found in spinal lamina II, the Substantia Geletinosa. The perception of pain is attenuated and the inflammatory response blocked so that normal conditions can return.
NERVE POINTS:
Nerve points are obviously any useful area that is associated directly with a nerve. Some acupoints are nerve points, as are some extra points, reflex points and trigger points. Some nerve points respond to strikes or other pressure and are thus pressure points, others are true vital points.
Striking nerve points can trigger reflexes in a very predictable way and are thus useful to the combative arts. Some nerve points can, under particular conditions, trigger processes in distant areas of the body through interactions with the sympathetic and/or parasympathetic nervous system. Sometimes unconsciousness can be produced in this way, but not without its share of dangers. The mechanisms are complex and are not intended to be the subject of this discourse.
REFLEX POINTS:
Reflex points are any point that operates in such a way as to trigger muscles to flex in a way that operates outside of conscious control. This is like the rubber hammer to the knee tendon, which produces a sharp kick in response. Knowledge of these points is most useful to the martial artist, because they can rob the opponent of power exactly when they expect to be able to use it against you.
Reflex points are generally associated with golgi tendon organs, which are usually found a third of the way in toward the belly of a muscle from its connections to tendon or bone. The golgi tendon organ monitors the tension and condition of tendon tissue, and when a dangerous circumstance is detected a signal is sent to reflex arcs in the spine. The reflex arcs then send signals for various things to happen to different muscles to prevent damage. Most notably the muscles controlling the next higher joint relax in an attempt to allow the offended area to move naturally away from harm.
The first level of a reflex response is the withdrawal reflex. This is simply the relaxation of the muscles not being used, while particular muscles fire in order to pull away the offended area. This happens when a sudden but minor sharp pain causes you to involuntarily jerk a hand back.
The second level of reflex response is a crossed extension reflex, where the contra lateral or opposite body side turns toward the pain while the offended side pulls away, effectively producing a rotation. This is done through reflex firing of a larger, more complex array of muscles than the withdrawal response.
The third level of reflex response is sometimes called the launch reflex. Basically the whole body gets involved and the body launches itself away from the pain in a spasm similar to the flopping around of a fish. The usefulness of such a thing to the martial artist is obvious.
Beyond the third level there are times when unconsciousness results. Again, the mechanism of this is complicated and it is not intended to be the subject of this discourse.
CHAKRA POINTS:
The term chakra comes from the Sanskrit word meaning wheel. Chakras are said to be connections between the physical and psychological bodies. Those who claim to have the ability to ‘see’ the charkas describe a colorful wheel of energy continuously revolving or rotating. They are described as being situated in the spinal column but with their reflections also detectable as whirling discs in front of the body. The order of the charkas is said to begin at the base of the spine and finish at the top of the head. Chakras are described as working through the body between front and back. A more precise estimate of location might be obtained from Kundalini Tantra by Swami Satyananda Saraswati.
Each charka is said to vibrate or rotate at a different speed. The root or first chakra rotates at the slowest speed, the crown or seventh chakra at the highest speed. Each chakra is said to be stimulated by its own and complimentary color, and also a range of gemstones for various specific uses. The chakra colors are red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, and violet. The size and brightness of the wheels is described as varying with individual development, energy level, physical condition, stress or disease.
It is believed by some that if the chakras are not balanced or if the energies are blocked, the life force will be slowed down causing the individual to feel tired, out of sorts, listless, or depressed. Physical bodily functions might be affected and diseases may develop, or in some cases the mind may also be affected. A negative attitude, doubt, fear, etc. might develop. While the physical aspects of the charkas might have many implications for health and healing, many concentrate primarily on the psychological aspects of these areas. The seven major charkas are said to govern the function of numerous smaller charkas that are connected to them. This complicates the paradigm greatly.
According to the theory, there are lower chakras that are responsible for the evolution of instinct in the animal kingdom and no longer consciously used in humans. These chakras are said to be situated in the legs of animals. There are also believed by some to be higher chakras above the Crown. These are referred to figuratively in some of the more esoteric writings on the subject. Further information can be found through a study of the Kabalistic paradigm.

Chris J.

03-Oct-2003, 10:46 PM

Come on, lets not just kill the thread here. How do some of you folks currently use these points, and does this use seem to make sense given what we know about them?
We use the reflex points while establishing locks, arm bars and other control techniques associated with grappling. Striking the inside margin of the low end of the Biceps Brachi, for example, weakens the opponent while triggering a sharp withdrawal reflex away from the strike; this allows the application of several different techniques. Or, while doing an arm bar if the opponent is resisting strongly a sharp strike above and behind the elbow both weakens resistemce and causes a reflex toward where you would like the opponent to go. Or, driving a thumb into the base of the front of the neck launches the opponent backwards...

-Chris J.

mattsylvester

04-Jul-2004, 08:45 AM

hi Chris,

We work very much on the same principle, often using a PP hit to get them to open up the real point of the technique.

We never use them as the finishing technqiue, although a forearm into the neck should close pretty much everyone's eyes or at least stun them if enough force is used.

Come on, lets not just kill the thread here. How do some of you folks currently use these points, and does this use seem to make sense given what we know about them?
We use the reflex points while establishing locks, arm bars and other control techniques associated with grappling. Striking the inside margin of the low end of the Biceps Brachi, for example, weakens the opponent while triggering a sharp withdrawal reflex away from the strike; this allows the application of several different techniques. Or, while doing an arm bar if the opponent is resisting strongly a sharp strike above and behind the elbow both weakens resistemce and causes a reflex toward where you would like the opponent to go. Or, driving a thumb into the base of the front of the neck launches the opponent backwards...

-Chris J.

goatnipples2002

06-Jul-2004, 10:48 PM

I personally don't practice to strike a certain pressure point. I have no art I follow.....only philosophies that apply to city life. The days of swords and arrows is over now young punks have guns and pipe bombs.

I have been conditioning my one knuckle punch for close to 18 months. I believe in the one strike one kill state of mind that is in Kara-te.

If you hit someone with a one knuckle punch you are GUARANTEED to hit a pressure point and cause maximum damage. If it conditioned properly you will NOT break your finger. I like to hit under the arm, in the armpit/upper ribs area or in the neck/cheek/eye area. It is easier to hit in the body and cause a death or knucke out. The most effective points are in the heart/lung/bladder/kidney area.

Matt Stone

07-Jul-2004, 01:05 AM

I personally don't practice to strike a certain pressure point.

How do you practice, then? If you don't develop the ability to target small moving objects, can you believe you will actually be able to strike them under duress?

I have no art I follow.....only philosophies that apply to city life.

Really? What might those philosophies be? I'm curious how your philosophy translates into technique.

The days of swords and arrows is over now young punks have guns and pipe bombs.

True, but police statistics show that of reported assaults, firearms don't figure into that great a percentage of them... That'd imply that training to defeat unarmed aggressors, or aggressors armed with clubs, knives and the like, is just as relevant today as it was 100, 200, or 500 years ago.

I'd say the difference between then and now may only lie in the emotional state of the attacker - it seems people these days have much less regard for life than in previous times, though criminals are criminals regardless of the era.

I have been conditioning my one knuckle punch for close to 18 months. I believe in the one strike one kill state of mind that is in Kara-te.

That is an impressive endeavor... How do you conduct your conditioning training?

If you hit someone with a one knuckle punch you are GUARANTEED to hit a pressure point and cause maximum damage.

That isn't entirely true... If you strike the opponent with a full fist, you are likely to have several points underneath your fist, but that doesn't mean that you have actually "hit" those points. Some points require specific angles to cause their reactions, and without that angle they are no more susceptible to striking than any other location on the body.

If it conditioned properly you will NOT break your finger.

Agreed.

I like to hit under the arm, in the armpit/upper ribs area or in the neck/cheek/eye area.

Remember Musashi's admonition against having "favorite techniques..." Having a technique you like more than others is just as dangerous (to you) as knowing many techniques insufficiently well...

It is easier to hit in the body and cause a death or knucke out. The most effective points are in the heart/lung/bladder/kidney area.

Causing death by a punch to the body is unlikely... Assaults are infrequent. Assaults against trained individuals further lessens the probability of such an assault occurring. Then, given that most people who practice MA don't engage in "live contact" training all that often, it is highly unlikely that someone with special martial training would actually be able to effect a "kill."

I see on your profile you are from Bellevue. I am from Omaha originally, and graduated from Bryan High. Where are you? I could suggest some interesting facitlities in your area that might help you in your training...

goatnipples2002

09-Jul-2004, 09:00 PM

mr matt what a character you are.....

When I said I don't practice to hit a certain PP I meant that I don't defend myself with the one intention of trying to strike cv22 or cv17 or the dan/tan tien. If we could talk I could answer better. You take what is given. Meaning if A neck strike is feasible then go all in or if a groin strike is open then move in.

I go by alot of philosophies that I really don't want to explain because you aren't here to learn only ridicule. Some examples are....

Attack and defend simultaneously (to me the greatest and best)
Economy of motion
One strike one kill
It's better to master few techs, than learn alot and master none
Centerline theory

Do you need more? If so OH WELL.

How naive...statistics. Tell my gilrfriend she's a statistics, and any other girl or man that has been violated in any way. Whether it be robberd, raped or assualted. Let talk real life not no damn statistics. I live in America where crime is the number one trade/skill. I teach rape prevention and the one knuckle punch is taught because it is the most effective strike (if conditioned properly).

I conduct my training on and iron palm bag my mom made for me. I filled my bag with MUNG BEANS...very important beans. I strike the bag 100 times in the morning or whenever I get up then I TRY to do the same before I crash, I usually don't because I'm too damn tired from working. I also use DIT DA JOW that I made 2 years ago...it reduces ANY form of injury and I have yet to experience any scarring.

matt-That isn't entirely true... If you strike the opponent with a full fist, you are likely to have several points underneath your fist, but that doesn't mean that you have actually "hit" those points. Some points require specific angles to cause their reactions, and without that angle they are no more susceptible to striking than any other location on the body.

Who ever taught you this BS needs to behead themselves. Anybody knows that 10lbs of pressure in a dime sized area is surely going to cause more of a neurological overload/damage then 10 lbs of pressure in apple sized area. The reason being is that the more nerves involved the more paths there are to dissapate the pain. The less nerves involved the less paths to dissapate the pain. You still want to be hard headed...try this :D

Let a friend punch you in the stomach with a fist as hard as they can...do whatever you do when you get struck...breath, tense up, cry whatever. Then let the same friend hit you with a PROPERLY formed phoenix eye or tiger's tooth or ippon ken or one knuckle punch. You tell me the difference. I have been hit in PP most don't hurt right away...know why? but the pain can get very intense in a matter of seconds. The only reason I say the stomach is so you don't damage the strikers hand.

The stikes cause to totally different pains. The tiger's tooth is an internal damaging strike and a fist is external damage. Most people bruise when struck with a full fist, most people hurt on the inside with no external damge when struck with the phoenix eye.

To me the one knuckle punch is not a technique, just a strike what you do before the strike is technique. So NO, I do not have a favorite technique. I have a favorite strike that be used by ANY art because it is merely an extenion of what people currently use. The real question is will it save your life when someone else is trying to take yours via mureder, rape, assualt or robbery.

And about the causing death thing with a body strike it is very EASY with 1 knuckle punch. It's called ruptured organs and internal bleeding. Also broken ribs puncturing lungs. Oh wait I forgot you don't practice these things because they could hurt someone. So do you go to one of those schools that says kick with the instep and not the shin?

Your last paragraph says it all.....what a doozy.
Because one is trained does not make them inhuman any person can bleed, break and fracture. If you learned to attack and defend as one you may understand the one knuckle punch.

Most places in Omaha are a joke. They want money not to train people to defend themselves against the real problems. I have tried many times to find people who would like to train but no takers, will I had one guy who taught me some Wing Chun, that really helped. You should read ALL my past posts, ignore the immaturity in some of them I am way older and wiser now. I hope you will be one day too. I have agued my beliefs and others so read up.

I really dislike people that have attitudes like yours, but I look past your faults and blame immaturity. So you can stop talking to me like I'm some young punk. I'm a grown ass man that's for real about self defense. I don't do this for fun or exercise...I do this for safety and survival. Be wiser in your posts. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Cain

10-Jul-2004, 01:10 AM

Chill out goatnipps, this is a place to discuss not bicker with someone!

|Cain|

Nrv4evr

10-Jul-2004, 01:35 AM

give him a bit of credit, he managed to turn an attack into a 16 paragraph filled with various tidbits of empty claims and some truths... there's a first for everything.

Matt Stone

10-Jul-2004, 08:47 AM

mr matt what a character you are...

I'm a character? Let's examine your responses to my comments for a moment, shall we?

When I said I don't practice to hit a certain PP I meant that I don't defend myself with the one intention of trying to strike cv22 or cv17 or the dan/tan tien. If we could talk I could answer better. You take what is given.

That clarified your original comment of:

I personally don't practice to strike a certain pressure point.

That comment was vague at best, and I took it to possibly imply that you didn't practice specific points, just the strike you are fond of... You made yourself more fully understood by explaining that you train to strike whatever target is presented. No argument there.

I go by alot of philosophies that I really don't want to explain because you aren't here to learn only ridicule. Some examples are....

Where do you get that I am only here to "ridicule" you? I was asking for you to better explain your position. You have gone on the defensive when such action was not warranted.

Attack and defend simultaneously (to me the greatest and best)
Economy of motion
One strike one kill
It's better to master few techs, than learn alot and master none
Centerline theory

Do you need more? If so OH WELL.

And your defensiveness is further exemplified by the "OH WELL" comment.

How naive...statistics.

Excuse me? I'm naive because I make use of official reports (of the cases that are reported) to get a feeling for what actually happens on the street? You're right... I should just stay in the training hall and never look outside for guidance on what is being used by potential opponents... :rolleyes:

Tell my gilrfriend she's a statistics, and any other girl or man that has been violated in any way. Whether it be robberd, raped or assualted. Let talk real life not no damn statistics. I live in America where crime is the number one trade/skill.

And you criticize my using statistics to assist my understanding of what actually occurs in the street? And what is "robberd?" :rolleyes:

I teach rape prevention and the one knuckle punch is taught because it is the most effective strike (if conditioned properly).

And how long does it take for your students to develop a properly conditioned phoenix eye fist? Why not teach techniques for rape prevention that will survive the "fight/flight/freeze" response that will, inevitably, render all but gross motor control useless? Wouldn't it be far more productive for a person to begin training a palm heel strike, one that takes little in the way of conditioning to use "right out of the box" than having them rely on a digital strike that may take months to develop and will likely fail due to the fine motor control it requires?

I conduct my training on and iron palm bag my mom made for me. I filled my bag with MUNG BEANS...very important beans.

That's nice that your mother made your bag, and that you prefer mung beans. I use sand in my bag for slaps, digital conditioning and the backs of my hands, and I strike the 6x6 posts outside my house for other strikes...

I strike the bag 100 times in the morning or whenever I get up then I TRY to do the same before I crash, I usually don't because I'm too damn tired from working. I also use DIT DA JOW that I made 2 years ago...it reduces ANY form of injury and I have yet to experience any scarring.

:rolleyes: I don't recall insinuating that you would have had any scarring, nor that you would have injured yourself...

Who ever taught you this BS needs to behead themselves.

Really? Tell Seiyu Oyata and his senior students that...

Anybody knows that 10lbs of pressure in a dime sized area is surely going to cause more of a neurological overload/damage then 10 lbs of pressure in apple sized area.

I'm not debating that a strike with a smaller focus area will penetrate equally or less than one with a larger focus area. You said that using a phoenix eye fist you are "guaranteed" to hit a point. No, you are not. You are guaranteed to have points lying beneath the "footprint" of your fist no matter where you hit, but using a much smaller striking surface you will have to be far, far more accurate if you wish to strike a dime-sized point.

The tiger's tooth is an internal damaging strike and a fist is external damage.

Well, you keep thinking that a fist can't do "internal" damage. Then go visit the Yiliquan people in Bellevue and the Isshinryu people in Carson City, IA.

Most people bruise when struck with a full fist, most people hurt on the inside with no external damge when struck with the phoenix eye.

See above.

To me the one knuckle punch is not a technique, just a strike what you do before the strike is technique. So NO, I do not have a favorite technique. I have a favorite strike that be used by ANY art because it is merely an extenion of what people currently use. The real question is will it save your life when someone else is trying to take yours via mureder, rape, assualt or robbery.

And that was the jist of what Musashi was saying... By having one specific strike, one specific weapon, one specific anything, you limit your options in responding to a threat.

And about the causing death thing with a body strike it is very EASY with 1 knuckle punch.

And you've verified this exactly how? With statistics of people that were struck with such a technique (let's not be naive about statistics), or by "killing" someone with the technique yourself?

It's called ruptured organs and internal bleeding. Also broken ribs puncturing lungs.

In a murder case I worked on a number of years back, the accused killed his wife by punching her with a closed fist in the stomach, rupturing her liver. Closed fist, not a phoenix eye. What ruptures an organ isn't necessarily the method of delivery of force, but rather the force itself.

Oh wait I forgot you don't practice these things because they could hurt someone. So do you go to one of those schools that says kick with the instep and not the shin?

You make a lot of assumptions... You have no idea what I train in, nor how I train. I suspect you'd be rather surprised were you to attend our training. If you ever come up to the Tacoma, WA area, you are welcome to come and attend our training (it is an open invitation to anyone, anywhere, anytime) so you can see that I do not, in fact, engage in the kind of training you assume I do.

Your last paragraph says it all.....what a doozy.

Now you are insulting me because of where I grew up? I'm less and less inclined to take you seriously when that is the best you can do in rebuttal to my earlier post (especially when it was made without malice of any kind).

Because one is trained does not make them inhuman any person can bleed, break and fracture. If you learned to attack and defend as one you may understand the one knuckle punch.

More assumptions on your part... What color is the sky on your planet?

Most places in Omaha are a joke.

I know. I grew up there, remember? All sorts of questionable schools, sure. But there are one or two that are worth looking into.

If you were interested, and not so opinionated and full of yourself, I'd be happy to point you toward a couple places you might be pleasantly surprised by. But your cup is pretty full as is, so I'm guessing you wouldn't be interested at all...

They want money not to train people to defend themselves against the real problems.

That is the problem with commercial schools - balancing truth and realism in training against continued guaranteed income. :(

I have tried many times to find people who would like to train but no takers,

Again, I'd be happy to point you toward people that train pretty hard, but I suspect you wouldn't care to look them up. How do you define training? I'm just curious...

You should read ALL my past posts, ignore the immaturity in some of them I am way older and wiser now. I hope you will be one day too. I have agued my beliefs and others so read up.

Sorry, but I don't have the time nor inclination to read through what you admit were juvenile, puerile posts so I can better understand where you are coming from. I have been training for 18 years and have run into quite a few people much like yourself, convinced of your superior knowledge. You demonstrate your level of understanding by holding yourself up as an expert. I state things with authority thanks to having experimented, trained, and learned all over the world, however I'm still willing to entertain other perspectives. You, it would seem, are not.

I really dislike people that have attitudes like yours, but I look past your faults and blame immaturity.

Really? Well, thank you for being so condescending. I asked my questions earlier in all sincerity so I could get a feel for what kind of training background you came from. You took it as a personal attack because of your own paranoia. Tell you what... You look past my faults, and I'll try to ignore yours.

So you can stop talking to me like I'm some young punk. I'm a grown ass man that's for real about self defense. I don't do this for fun or exercise...I do this for safety and survival. Be wiser in your posts. :eek: :eek: :eek:

How old are you, anyway? Seems to me you have some issues with being taken seriously.

Listen, if you want to put your attitude on the back burner, we can talk. I approached you with honest, sincere questions and you came out of the gates swinging. Fine. You want to continue to be a belligerent ass, that's fine too. Your choice.

Ikken Hisatsu

10-Jul-2004, 11:32 AM

err i notice dillman being referred to here.... am i the only one who saw that student of dillmans (some fat guy i forget his name) being completely exposed by fox tv? using his "super deadly tappy knockout stuff" he not only couldnt do anything to the wee news reporter lady, but when they went to a real MA school it didnt work on the students there either. so far all i see is proof of it NOT working.

oh and the pride rules state that you cannot attack the spine or use small joint manipulation, it says nothing about pressure points.

Tommy_P

10-Jul-2004, 12:55 PM

err i notice dillman being referred to here.... am i the only one who saw that student of dillmans (some fat guy i forget his name) being completely exposed by fox tv? using his "super deadly tappy knockout stuff" he not only couldnt do anything to the wee news reporter lady, but when they went to a real MA school it didnt work on the students there either. so far all i see is proof of it NOT working.

Look here under: "Are you interested in rank?"

http://www.smoka-usa.com/

Tommy

goatnipples2002

11-Jul-2004, 06:31 PM

Yes I will admit I can be very defensive and obnoxious. This b/c I believe in what I practice and am very enthusiastic about self defense. Not MA but self defense. Maybe we started on the wrong foot. Let me rephrase I agree with what you said about the hit PP takes more than striking with a PE. I will say that if one is struck with a PE then they will more tyhan likely feel some of the worst pain thinkable. I don't have proof for people being killed by a PE. The only reason I said that stuff about using stats is b/c they are nowhere near accurate. In one city violence might be very low and another very high so two people in those cities might train different according to their environment. yes I did come out of the gates swinging, just like in life. I feel a threat dismantle it, as fast & hard as possible. I thought you were trying to be a ass. MISCOMMUNICATION. The issues with be taken seriously a kinda funny. Most people don't cause I'm smart and wear glasses. Those that push me, get struck. Not that I'm abully or anything I just can't afford to be ran over like a chump. I have too much respect for myself.

I have alot to explain so you might understand me a little better. I have to go to work now, it sucks. I would love to go to a real hard school, I mean a school that is very physical. Yet not outdated or expensive. I can't push more that $50/month.

About the people I teach that's my girlfriend and some other friends. I don't actually teach, but we all practice together, or atleast we used to. That stuff about freezing up we practice things aimed at that. oh yeah I'm 24.

Matt Stone

12-Jul-2004, 12:21 AM

Yes I will admit I can be very defensive and obnoxious. This b/c I believe in what I practice and am very enthusiastic about self defense. Not MA but self defense.

You might consider working on that... Be it on the internet in writing or in person verbally, being defensive and obnoxious won't earn you much in the way of respect from anyone. One of the differences between simple self defense and martial art training is that in the latter control and discipline are developed. Control and discipline allow your techniques to land much more telling blows because you are in greater control of what you throw. Control and discipline allow your responses to be more appropriate to the threat encountered. :cool:

Maybe we started on the wrong foot.

No maybe about it... I asked questions, you attacked me.

Let me rephrase I agree with what you said about the hit PP takes more than striking with a PE. I will say that if one is struck with a PE then they will more tyhan likely feel some of the worst pain thinkable.

Well, while I'll agree that a phoenix eye fist is a very pinpoint technique and can cause a great deal of discomfort, the worst strike I have ever felt was a regular ol' punch without any special digital technique, and it wasn't directed against a specific pressure point either.

I don't have proof for people being killed by a PE. The only reason I said that stuff about using stats is b/c they are nowhere near accurate. In one city violence might be very low and another very high so two people in those cities might train different according to their environment.

And while I agree with you, the statistics provided for criminal encounters typically take this into effect... Different cities will break them down by city, by district, etc., while national stats deal with national averages. That doesn't discount the value that statistical study provides to someone attempting to evaluate their training in light of possible threats...

yes I did come out of the gates swinging, just like in life. I feel a threat dismantle it, as fast & hard as possible. I thought you were trying to be a ass. MISCOMMUNICATION.

Well, like I said above, that kind of attitude may not get you far in life. You've made it this long, sure, but age and the natural maturation process tends to refine that kind of thinking out of you. Young people typically have this kind of confrontational attitude - they can afford to, they're young and heal quickly... :rolleyes: Us old farts can't rely on that kind of "in your face" behavior - I'm old and don't want a prolonged fight! :D

Miscommunication happens all the time on the internet. If I wasn't familiar with that I wouldn't still be talking with you about it...

I would love to go to a real hard school, I mean a school that is very physical. Yet not outdated or expensive. I can't push more that $50/month.

What do you mean by "very physical?" Do you want a workout, or are you talking about hard contact? There is a difference... I've seen classes where the training was very grueling, but nobody got hit during class, ever. I've also been to classes where exercise simply wasn't part of training (you do that on your own time), but people were getting dropped with punches and kicks all night long.

Which one are you talking about?

I'm not going to lose any sleep if you are taking offense at questions I ask and things I say, believe me. You will do whatever you want to do, however you want to do it. But if a person posts something in a public forum on the internet, he/she should be fully prepared to face whatever scathing commentary may be fired at them from whatever corner of the internet it may be fired from...

That having been said...

If you are really interested in good training, email me at wolfden68@hotmail.com. I'd be happy to help put you in touch with good people and good information. But I won't be chasing you down... If your cup is nice and full and you know enough as is, fine. Hope you and your friends make it work out for you in the end. If you are interested in keeping your mind open and learning more than you already know, email me... I won't be hunting you down, though, to cram the info down your throat.

Enjoy. Hope you have a good day at work.

KenpoDavid

12-Jul-2004, 03:25 PM

There are Yiliquan people in Bellevue? I'd like to meet them... (being in Bellevue myself)

I talked to an American Kenpo guy who recently has moved to Bellevue, too, but he only seemed interested in taking on paying students, not so much in just working out. At lest that's what I assumed when he mostly stopped communicating with me after I told him I wasn;t looking for a teacher but more of a friend to practice with.

I've met GN in person. By an odd coincidence (that is, I never met him until MAP) we live about 3 blocks from each other. In person he is soft spoken and smiling. Of course some peolpe think I'm an a$$ too so take my opinion for what it is worth LOL

GoatNips - I've had some friends from my school over to do some sparring and technique practice and we are trying to get together more often. I will be sure to contact you next time we are doing it. If you drive by and see us in the front yard with the gloves on, stop and say hi! We go pretty hard I'm sure you won't be disappointed :woo:

goatnipples2002

12-Jul-2004, 07:41 PM

When i said physical I meant as in contact not a Jane Fonda workout. I don't mean to come across as a young punk b/c I am far from that. I spent most of my 24 years in the streets or locked up, for dumb decisions I am suffering for now. I went to prison for 3 years when I was 18. I used to live in the projects of San Diego. NONE of this makes me tough or cool nor do expect anybody to give me respect for these, BUT being in these situations made me think about what criteria I am looking for in a style of self defense.

I like the one knuckle punch b/c it is very damaging, more damaging than a full fist. I have been in more multiple attacker situations than 1 on 1 confrontations, not that I was always innocent, but most of the time I was. Alot of people can take a full fist strike and keep on ticking but to take a PE takes a damn near indestructible person.
If you are being attacked by 3 people the only techs you can use are lethal ones (in my opinion). You won't have enough time to duke it out with each attacker, so you maximize your techs so that you get the one strike one kill philosophy. It would be hopeful that you would only need 3 strikes to end the situation.

Basically what I am looking for is an art that can be learned very quickly. I don't see any purpose in practicing an art that takes 6 months to learn anything that will save my ass. An art that has lethal techs so that I can effectively defend myself against being jumped. NONE of that jumping around BS or that flowery stuff either. I'm into self defense not balet. No block then strike b/c that waste time and energy and both are important when you are being mugged or raped. Deflection and striking at the sametime is the best to me. I practiced Wing Chun for a little while and I love all of it except the mobility is there. Everything else is perfect.

Matt Stone

13-Jul-2004, 12:40 AM

There are Yiliquan people in Bellevue? I'd like to meet them... (being in Bellevue myself)

They are at the Bellevue community center (I think) around 84th and Harrison-ish.

I talked to an American Kenpo guy who recently has moved to Bellevue, too, but he only seemed interested in taking on paying students, not so much in just working out. At lest that's what I assumed when he mostly stopped communicating with me after I told him I wasn;t looking for a teacher but more of a friend to practice with.

Well, I can't say how the Yili folks in Bellevue will greet you... If you are looking for someone to practice with in general, they may or may not be interested. If you are looking to study Yili, they'll certainly welcome you (I'd hope, anyway).

They hold a number of seminars on things like Iron Palm training, aspects of Yiliquan (unarmed and armed seminars), etc., also. That's a good way to meet up with them on a one-time basis to get to know folks. Typically the seminars are hosted by the Bellevue group and they bring our teacher up from Iowa (where he is living in semi-retirement) to present the seminar.

When i said physical I meant as in contact not a Jane Fonda workout.

I'm sure they'd be happy to oblige you... Tell them I said hi. ;)

As for an art that is easily learned... Well, Yili is a self-paced art. You learn it as fast as you train it. I took the better part of 13 years earning my black sash (I trained, but was never in a hurry), though we have had folks earn one in as little as 3 or 4 years (they trained like maniacs, though). You can apply the basics within a few months depending on how much you train, but it is certainly an art you can spend the rest of your life learning about and refining.

I've studied Modern Arnis, Shuri-te Ha Karate-do, Aikido and Judo in addition to Yiliquan, and of them all (though I absolutely love Judo) Yiliquan is the best thing I've ever been exposed to (and I've done quite a bit of "crosstraining" with people from other arts, like Kyokushin, JKD, Kali, TKD, Wing Chun, Goju-ryu, Isshin-ryu and others).

Ikken Hisatsu

13-Jul-2004, 02:45 AM

"I don't see any purpose in practicing an art that takes 6 months to learn anything that will save my ass"

Ever heard of muscle memory? you have to practice things over and over and over and over before they become instinct. it will take hundreds if not thousands of hours of GOOD training, full contact sparring, and constant drilling before you are considered "good". just because you know how to hit someone in a vital spot because someone showed you once doesnt mean you can apply it when the adrenalin is flowing.

anyway. if you want immediately effective arts, try something like judo or BJJ. after only a couple of months of judo I could throw around my heavier and stronger friends with ease, and tie them into pretzels on the ground while they flailed like a fish. for striking, boxing is your best bet. while I believe that thai boxing is more effective i nthe long run because you have more weapons, boxing is an excellent art for learning how to put someone down very quickly, and can be learnt faster than most other arts.

Nrv4evr

13-Jul-2004, 02:53 AM

great post except for the dumbass part. :eek:

Ikken Hisatsu

13-Jul-2004, 03:41 AM

ah... sorry about that, mods please dont ban me again. it wont let me go back and edit it. im not used to such restrictions of free speech

Cain

13-Jul-2004, 04:33 AM

I edited it, get used to the restrictions!

|Cain|

Knight_Errant

13-Jul-2004, 10:35 AM

Personally, I found it much harder to learn grappling skills in judo, but that's just me. You might be different.
Back on topic- MOST pressure point stuff is a waste of time. But experimenting with the larger, more accessible ones could be useful for grappling. Not striking.

Ikken Hisatsu

13-Jul-2004, 10:53 AM

much harder in comparison to another art, or just in general?

Knight_Errant

13-Jul-2004, 11:03 AM

In comparison to the karate I do

KenpoDavid

13-Jul-2004, 05:40 PM

I read a pretty decent book : Chin-na in Groundfighting. It covers a lot of PP usage in grappling and Chin-na applications.

KenpoDavid

13-Jul-2004, 05:43 PM

They are at the Bellevue community center (I think) around 84th and Harrison-ish.
Well, I can't say how the Yili folks in Bellevue will greet you... If you are looking for someone to practice with in general, they may or may not be interested. If you are looking to study Yili, they'll certainly welcome you (I'd hope, anyway).

how can I get in touch with them?

does everyone think they should get paid to practice <sigh> whatever happened to just having fun with it... or did anyone ever do that?

YODA

13-Jul-2004, 07:35 PM

ah... sorry about that, mods please dont ban me again. it wont let me go back and edit it. im not used to such restrictions of free speech
It has nothing to do with free speech dude. You are free to express your views. Just do so without insulting anyone.

Matt Stone

13-Jul-2004, 07:38 PM

how can I get in touch with them?

does everyone think they should get paid to practice <sigh> whatever happened to just having fun with it... or did anyone ever do that?

Email me and I'll forward it on to the head instructor guy (my kids' godfather as a matter of fact).

Hope it works out for you. Just out of curiosity, what do you know about Yiliquan? It seemed you were surprised we had folks in Bellevue...

Matt Stone

13-Jul-2004, 07:41 PM

I read a pretty decent book : Chin-na in Groundfighting. It covers a lot of PP usage in grappling and Chin-na applications.

Pressure points can be used whilst vertical or horizontal. Some only present themselves for striking when you are at an odd angle to your opponent anyway.

Chin na (which is just a fancy way to refer to joint locks and chokes) can similarly be used just as equally effectively whether upright and standing, or on the ground.

I started playing Judo with a good friend of mine, and came to the conclusion (duh) that it is essentially the same "game" as standup striking and locking, except with an additional two "hands" (your feet) and the inclusion of a plane of movement that isn't normally considered during standup work.

KenpoDavid

13-Jul-2004, 08:13 PM

Bellevue is a small place, and I thought I was aware of all the MA groups in this little town... Omaha, nearby, is bigger and ther are lots of MA groups there that I know nothing about, but you were so specific about Bellevue that it surprised me a little :)

but, technically, 84th & Harrison isn't Bellevue. Anyone else on this board who cares about that, please raise your hand LOL It's Ralston.

I don't know anything at all about Yiliquan. I'm going to go read about it now, though. Look for an email soon...

edit: matt, the forum says you don;t want to receive emails. So you email me first!

Thanks!
-David

Matt Stone

14-Jul-2004, 12:46 AM

Bellevue is a small place, and I thought I was aware of all the MA groups in this little town... Omaha, nearby, is bigger and ther are lots of MA groups there that I know nothing about, but you were so specific about Bellevue that it surprised me a little :)

I grew up in Omaha, born and raised in South O. I went to Bryan Junior and Senior High, elementary at Pawnee...

I started training in Yiliquan in 1985 on 72nd and Maple (I think there is a Rent to Own store there now), and the school later moved up to Benson.

I went to University of No Opportunity (West Dodge High for those in the know) for a short time, and spent a number of years working at Bergan Mercy Hospital...

Omaha all the way, baby... :cool:

but, technically, 84th & Harrison isn't Bellevue. Anyone else on this board who cares about that, please raise your hand LOL It's Ralston.

Actually, we were both incorrect... While 84th and Harrison is near the Ralston border, I don't think Ralston begins until 2 or 3 traffic lights further north... 84th and Harrison is actually Papillion, and I think they are holding classes at the Papillion Community Center...

I don't know anything at all about Yiliquan. I'm going to go read about it now, though. Look for an email soon...

Where are you reading about it? I don't think we have anything on our website that talks about it much... You can go over to www.cyberkwoon.com, look in their "about styles" section under "Y" and there should be a brief article I wrote for them once upon a time...

goatnipples2002

14-Jul-2004, 01:47 AM

So what is yiliquan all about? How much is their school? You say they are not afraid of contact?

KenpoDavid

14-Jul-2004, 05:56 PM

OK we were both wrong, according to Yahoo maps its La Vista!

"West Dodge High" I ahven;t heard that in a while... Its not even west anymore, we have burger kings and strip malls out past 220th street nowadays... :(

I guess I'm not reading about it anywhee, I tried to find somewhere and couldnt hahaha

Matt Stone

14-Jul-2004, 07:18 PM

Well, I haven't lived there since 1995, so my memory has apparently faded (it's the first thing to go, y'know).

Check the article over at Cyberkwoon for basic info on Yiliquan. If you can't find it, let me know.

shotokanwarrior

05-Oct-2004, 12:16 PM

most Kyusho points are illegal to hit intentionally
Kyusho points????? What are they?

I don’t want some of the younger or more irresponsible members of these forums thinking cool that sounds like fun and attacking friends and family to see if it works.

Younger? Excuse me, Solane. I'm 14 years old and I would NEVER hit someone somewhere sensitive just to see would he/she keel over screaming. I don't appreciate the assumption that young people are irresponsible.

pressure points r junctions where the chi energy builds and then starts traveling round the body again.

Right, so if I give someone a Gyaku zuki to the solar plexus, he doesn't double over groaning because I just rammed 8.5st of biomechanical force into his autonomic nerves, he doubles over groaning because I just disrupted a flow of supernatural energy in his body.
Oh well, I won't disrespect someone else's beliefs.

EDIT:
AAAAAAAAARGH. SOD IT. Not again...didn't realise this thread was 4 pages long. You guys have the right to murder me if I have said anything ignorant.

KenpoDavid

05-Oct-2004, 02:18 PM

Right, so if I give someone a Gyaku zuki to the solar plexus

be careful with that, soembody might think you were part of a cult :rolleyes:
...

You guys have the right to murder me if I have said anything ignorant.
:woo: consider yourself murdered :D

LilBunnyRabbit

05-Oct-2004, 02:36 PM

Younger? Excuse me, Solane. I'm 14 years old and I would NEVER hit someone somewhere sensitive just to see would he/she keel over screaming. I don't appreciate the assumption that young people are irresponsible. Quite, I agree, I'm 21 and at least as irresponsible and immature as most twelve year olds are stereotyped to be.

kcatcher

05-Oct-2004, 03:14 PM

Mike Flanagan

05-Oct-2004, 03:58 PM

Kyusho points????? What are they?

Simply the more vulnerable points of the human anatomy - places you can attack where the result is seemingly out of proportion to the amount of force used. Some people think they are the same thing as tsubo - the acupuncture points. In some cases that's true, in many cases it isn't.

Mike

shotokanwarrior

06-Oct-2004, 12:14 PM

Hey, Kempo David. :) :) :) How go temple duties in the Order of the Elbow??? You achieved enlightenment yet? How is your friend the annoying guy? Apart from having a severe pain in his solar plexus that is. :) :) :) :)

KenpoDavid

06-Oct-2004, 05:07 PM

Like your elbow strikes, Kempo David?

Well, there is a nasty point on the tip of the elbow (the funny bone) but I think it would be hard to strike. :P

tuahneil

06-Oct-2004, 05:22 PM

Habitual acts of violence??? is it the instinct of mind and body you say,,,?

shotokanwarrior

06-Oct-2004, 06:50 PM

That's not what I meant K David...anyway that was a crap short post and I've edited it....oh yeah, hold on, I've been murdered. Better shut up and lie around staring vacantly at the ceiling with blood pumping out of my mouth :) I hope you used a submachine gun or something Kempo Dave...the idea of dying peacefully in my sleep is repugnant:)

Melanie

06-Oct-2004, 10:34 PM

I’m a sceptic as to the practicality of pressure points in actual combat though. Some are accessible and, together with other techniques, can no doubt be an asset. But they are only a very small proportion of the techniques.

Dave Turton tells some interesting stories about pressure points advocates.

In so far as they are often sold as some sort of wonder weapon –yeh right.

I believe - personally - the more tools you have available in self defence, the better chance you have in defending yourself. I'm not saying its the be all and end all - but a moments pain could be all the chance you have/need to get yourself either away from the situation or at least in a better position. IMHO.

kcatcher

07-Oct-2004, 07:23 AM

I believe - personally - the more tools you have available in self defence, the better chance you have in defending yourself. I'm not saying its the be all and end all - but a moments pain could be all the chance you have/need to get yourself either away from the situation or at least in a better position. IMHO.

Is it not wiser to have a smaller stock of reliable and adaptable 'techniques' which you've drilled loads in high pressure training?

Some pressure points are OK -particularly the obvious ones like the eyes, chin etc. But they tend not to be the ones people are talking about when they say "pressure point techniques".

Hitting most pressure points can be equated to walking up to your car and standing with your back to the door, key in hand. Then turning around and without adjusting your aim, putting the key into the lock first time -(Dave Turton's analogy).

Hitting pinpoint pressure points from specific angles is a fine motor action. Your ability to perform this type of thing is affected both by the attacker (how they are in relation to you, are they moving? etc) and your own adrenaline levels (Which affects heartbeat thus affecting brain processing thus reducing fine motor skills).

In a relatively static clinch situation, some neck pressure points may be accessible and easy to 'find' -but then a headbutt is also an option and we can make an educated guess as to which is most reliable.

Melanie

07-Oct-2004, 09:27 AM

kcatcher - your right - it does require fine motor skills to perform PP's. I am a Shotokan practitioner (please don't hold that against -I'm actually quite a nice person! ;) ) and found that PP's helped explain several techniques I performed in the course of a kata, etc.

I didn't know a heavy fist on the shoulder (middle of) could distract and possibly stumble some one until I went to a PPs class. That would be more practical to me than head butting some one - as frankly I would concuss myself if I tried to head butt someone. Chest rubs (Terry Wingrove), neck/head points (Rick Clark), arm points (Zoltan Dienes), chin/side of mouth (Dave Turton) - yes I have trained with him! I have added to my self defence training. As I said before - I don't treat them as the be all and end all and have taken what I find useful. :)

Mike Flanagan

07-Oct-2004, 12:09 PM

Is it not wiser to have a smaller stock of reliable and adaptable 'techniques' which you've drilled loads in high pressure training?

Some pressure points are OK -particularly the obvious ones like the eyes, chin etc. But they tend not to be the ones people are talking about when they say "pressure point techniques".

Hitting most pressure points can be equated to walking up to your car and standing with your back to the door, key in hand. Then turning around and without adjusting your aim, putting the key into the lock first time -(Dave Turton's analogy).

This is a valid point, up to a point. I agree with your basic argument about fine motor skills. Personally I prefer techniques that use gross motor skills rather than fine ones. That doesn't mean I have to completely abandon the use of pressure points though. It is perfectly possible to target quite a number of points using only gross motor skills. I prefer to think in terms of pressure zones rather than individual points. Plus I often strike with quite a big weapon, such as the length of my forearm (ulna). So all I have to do is to match up my large weapon with a line or zone on the other person's body. Its a gross motor skill and its exactly what a number of classical karate techniques teach you to do.

So, can I hit a point the size of a penny in real combat? No. Does it matter if the points I hit are acupuncture points or accord in any way with chinese medical theory? No. Can I use vital strike points on a real, struggling assailant and make them work? Yes, I'm quite confident of that. I've never had to, I've not had to physically defend myself in years, but I've had enough experience of violence in my younger days to be a good judge of what I can and can't achieve for real.

Mike

kcatcher

07-Oct-2004, 12:42 PM

That would be more practical to me than head butting some one - as frankly I would concuss myself if I tried to head butt someone.Don’t discount headbutts too easily. Unless you have some specific medical condition which rules them out, they are generally quite usable.

It’s like any technique, you just have to learn it, practice it and drill it. The basic rule is to use a hard part of your head (your forehead) to impact on a softer part of theirs (nose etc). It has advantages in that it doesn’t have to be pinpoint accurate and often surprises people.

I tend to think that being shorter than your opponent helps too –as you are less likely accidentally clash foreheads. Geoff Thompson believes that it has an added surprise factor when a girl does it.

Mike,
Sounds cool to me.

On a wider issue, I think that many martial artists seem to fall into a seminar blindness trap. They go to some pressure point seminar where some ‘Master’ demonstrates complex PP moves on willing non-resisting opponents in a sanitised environment. They then come away thinking how clever these moves are and believe that they can transpose them into a live situation.

But the other sticking point for me is one of expediency. Why go for a very clever PP move when you could more easily smash their face in with an elbow? Sophistication should not a determining factor in deciding which move to use in SD circumstances.

kempocos

07-Oct-2004, 02:17 PM

This is a valid point, up to a point. I agree with your basic argument about fine motor skills. Personally I prefer techniques that use gross motor skills rather than fine ones. That doesn't mean I have to completely abandon the use of pressure points though. It is perfectly possible to target quite a number of points using only gross motor skills. I prefer to think in terms of pressure zones rather than individual points. Plus I often strike with quite a big weapon, such as the length of my forearm (ulna). So all I have to do is to match up my large weapon with a line or zone on the other person's body. Its a gross motor skill and its exactly what a number of classical karate techniques teach you to do.

So, can I hit a point the size of a penny in real combat? No. Does it matter if the points I hit are acupuncture points or accord in any way with chinese medical theory? No. Can I use vital strike points on a real, struggling assailant and make them work? Yes, I'm quite confident of that. I've never had to, I've not had to physically defend myself in years, but I've had enough experience of violence in my younger days to be a good judge of what I can and can't achieve for real.

Mike

The point is seen , I have said this before and will say it again.

> " You have to hit a dime size location to use PP" - NO you do not.

> " you have to tap this one or rub that one to activate it" - No, yes that will activate it but so will smashing it with yor fore arm.

> "hitting this way will reverse the chi energy flow" No it does not

There comes down to when is it theory and when is it application. I fnd many of the KYUSHO seminar crowd makes the subject more than it needs to be. Suggesting details that while in theory make the technique better are not really required for it to be effective enough to do the job. RYUSHIKAN put it very well " KYUSHO BY NUMBERS" spend much of the seminars in awe of Light Touch KO, I refuse to discuss this as those who allow others to knock them out are foolish it is not safe. The more complicated they make it the more time it takes to explain and the more seminars YOU need to PAY for.

Mike Flanagan

07-Oct-2004, 02:24 PM

On a wider issue, I think that many martial artists seem to fall into a seminar blindness trap. They go to some pressure point seminar where some ‘Master’ demonstrates complex PP moves on willing non-resisting opponents in a sanitised environment. They then come away thinking how clever these moves are and believe that they can transpose them into a live situation.

But the other sticking point for me is one of expediency. Why go for a very clever PP move when you could more easily smash their face in with an elbow? Sophistication should not a determining factor in deciding which move to use in SD circumstances.

Agreed. What you then need to do is to take what you've learnt in a seminar and see if you can find ways of using it in a more realistic setting. I find that some techniques just don't work for me, but others work just great (at least once I've brought them in line with my core principles).

But of course, like you say, there's no need to give up simple techniques that work. I want everything I do to be simple to do, to make violent confrontation simpler and easier for me to deal with. As regards sophistication, someone once made a very pertinent point to me - techniques/strategies can be sophisticated but that doesn't necessarily make them complicated. In short, I want to avoid complicated techniques, but my simple techniques can have layers of sophistication built in to them.

That said, there's nout wrong with a good old-fashioned head-butt.

Mike

Mike Flanagan

07-Oct-2004, 02:29 PM

The point is seen , I have said this before and will say it again.

> " You have to hit a dime size location to use PP" - NO you do not.

> " you have to tap this one or rub that one to activate it" - No, yes that will activate it but so will smashing it with yor fore arm.

> "hitting this way will reverse the chi energy flow" No it does not

There comes down to when is it theory and when is it application. I fnd many of the KYUSHO seminar crowd makes the subject more than it needs to be. Suggesting details that while in theory make the technique better are not really required for it to be effective enough to do the job. RYUSHIKAN put it very well " KYUSHO BY NUMBERS" spend much of the seminars in awe of Light Touch KO, I refuse to discuss this as those who allow others to knock them out are foolish it is not safe. The more complicated they make it the more time it takes to explain and the more seminars YOU need to PAY for.

I don't find anything there to disagree with there. I prefer to keep things simple. Kyusho works, but some people do like to 'gild the lilly' somewhat.

Mike

Hawks

29-Mar-2005, 08:57 PM

Hi all,

Over the past couple of months, as I have been going through the kata I need to know, I have been looking at alternative bunkai/oyo for the basics.

I also do Self Defence at least once a week and this has exposed me to pressure points. I was wondering how much emphasis you have on pressure points in your dojo, if at all?

There appears to be several trains of thought on pressurepoints, from setting up points to hitting a person that is particularly vulnerable at that time of day (?) (Apparently the best time to attack me is between 12-3 am :( ). I look forward to your comments on this ever growing topic...

Melanie

We train pretty in depth in Pressure points. My instuctors instuctor has co-written George Dillmans pressure point books with him. I find them to be incredibly effective but I have certainly seen many many posts with people who disagree. I would say look into them for yourself. I would also suggest finding either a Ryukyu Kempo school or a Kyushu Jitsu school. With either of them you get Tuite and Pressure points.

Good luck with your training

Hawks

29-Mar-2005, 09:08 PM

I have heard that George Dillman is something of an authority on the subject of pressure points....anyone?

My instuctors train under one of Dillmans students. I think he has some good ideas and I think Dillmans students are every bit as good with Pressure points and better with some other concepts. While my instuctors instuctor is fantastic with PP's his real focus is proper Bio mechanics, Pressure points are just the icing on the cake he wants to see you using your body properly.

chrispy

29-Mar-2005, 09:53 PM

ManabiMashoMan

29-Jul-2005, 01:09 PM

On the touch KO... The Head Sensei at my club and his Black Belt brother went to a seminar at one point and the guy doing the seminar was going on about "if i touch here, here and here you'd be out like a light, and my head Sensei goes"No way!" and so the guy giving the seminar grabs the BB brother and says ok watch, tap tap tap and he's out, sliding down the wall that was behind him, the seminar guy holds him up touches a couple more spots and brings him groggiley awake.

But as mentioned above, that is on an unresisting opponent. and since i wasn't there i don't know where he touched to achieve this.

..................
My Sensei's wife is a Black Belt and Aki-Jujitsu (sp?) and aside from "if your gonna hit a guy in the arm try to hit him right *here*" (sensei squeezes a pressure point and I go aarrrrggghhhh)

She'll do thing like say someone has grabbed your wrist, here's a white belt manouver called ikkio. then once you have the basics of that move down she'll go, now when you have trapped their hand just squeeze like this.(again I go arrrggghhhh)

And it's a fairly safe way to hit a pressure point, because a) you are trapping there hand anyway and are going to squeeze no matter what, but the PP is a bonus. (right where you hand starts to get meaty between your index finger and your thumb - right in the 'crotch' of those 2 digits.

Yes its a trick used by many Old school Masters of PP's In reality there is only one PP that knocks the guy down but the Master says he has to touch 4-6 places and does a fast combo. This is done for alot of good reasons but our school is against that kind of teachings because it breeds confussion, and when a young man learns these moves and they do them in RL fights when the adrinaline flows they can seriously kill or harm a person.

Also just so you know that trick of touching another PP to stop the effect of the PP is BS also, its used to show the power of PP and also keep people from practicing it due to fear of not know that shut off PP. The time of day and certain pp chart is bs too, its just a tool I promise you I have heard countless masters who do those demonstrations tell of why they do it and give thier reasons.

The problem is if you don't hide the move behind lore or other combo hits you risk one from the crowd taking that move back to thier dojo working on it and using it against you or someone and killing them. But after all you are there to learn self defense and in my view point you should learn control and discretion from certain moves during certain situations as well.

But if you can come up with a better way to demonstrate lethal or paralazing moves to a crowd and keep them from trying it out on thier lil sister or brother or friend next door then please post it. This is also why alot of Masters are rumored to know Death touches or stuff like that yet and yet they never show off. I have yet to actualy see a Death Touch demonstration though, because noone in the demo will willing die for a touch or hit, and my opion on actual Death Touches is open for suggestions. But I have seen touches and very light blows that cripple and cause seizures, strokes, 2-5 day commas, and more.

Its like learning how to throw fireballs, like in movies or games, if some master could demonstrate it do you actualy think he would explain how it worked =p and exactly when during your life would you need to perform such an act. That is the idea behind the D.touch of most masters, but I am alittle sceptical of them.