tomiki aikido

[ziseez]

i want too know 2 things,the lineage and background of who trained under tomiki and i wanna know what kinda style of tomiki really is and what do yall think about it??

[aikiwolfie]

There are other people better qualified than my self to answer this question. But basicaly Tomiki Aikido as I understand it is a combination of both Aikido and Judo. Tomiki Kenji Sensei trained under O Sensei for Aikido and Jigaro Kano for Judo.

As for who trained under Tomiki? You might want to try a google search.

In all honesty Tomiki Aikido has never impressed me. But that said I haven't seen very much of it. I find it strange to have competition in an art that promotes a phylosophy of no competition. I also find it difficult to take anybody seriously who is attacking me with a rubber tanto.

[aikiwolfie]

In fact here's a nice little link all about the man him self. http://www.tomikiaikido.8m.com/photo5.html

[aikiwolfie]

And here's a better one http://www.shodokan.ch/en/bio_tomiki.html

[nekogami13]

http://www.karlgeis.com/aikido.htm

http://www.tomiki.org/

http://www.aikidoalliance.org/

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/encyclopedia.asp?search=tomiki&submit=Search+Encyclopedia


try these links. I see nothing wrong with this style of aikido.

[ziseez]

hmm interesting,thankyou for the links.does anyone know what o sensei would think of the competitive part of tomiki because i read something on it that said he was htinking of it or something like that,but tomiki uses the competitions to sharpen skills(correct me if i am wrong).

[DexterTCN]

Tomiki, Iwama, Ki et al...they all look entirely different. They all approach Aikido from the viewpoints of the people who 'translated' it.

O Sensei thought Tomiki was fine, he thought Iwama was fine...and so on.

The trouble is that a lot of Aikido comes with snobbery attached. There is a great deal of this is the only way to do Aikido, ever!. Ignore it.

Just train. :)

[Tintin]

For the most relevant information, I suggest you look at this site:

Shodokan hombu website (http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/)

I thought I'd add this excerpt from it as a note about the use of the terms 'tomiki' & 'shodokan'


2001 is a very important year for our aikido. This year marks the 100th anniversary of Kenji Tomiki Sensei's birth. Also, in October, the 4th International Aikido Tournament will be held at Maishima Arena in Osaka. This is a great opportunity to convey to everyone Tomiki Sensei's dying wish.

Compared to when the JAA was started the number of members has increased greatly both in Japan and internationally. With the Internet and other forms of communication the volume of information has also increased and the possibility of being introduced to our aikido is greater than before.

Within our membership and in general it is not uncommon to hear the terms Tomiki Aikido or Tomiki-ryu Aikido. However, Tomiki Sensei told me about his extensive ideas and thoughts concerning aikido and budo. He poured his heart and soul into aikido but wanted to avoid his name being used in this way and indicated his great disapproval.

He was Morihei Ueshiba's best pupil and the first person to receive an 8th dan from him. In spite of this, after Ueshiba's death, Tomiki Sensei was criticised for his actions by the leading members of Aikikai at that time. They demanded that he should stop using the name 'aikido'. I recall Tomiki Sensei's strong reaction, "I have got only one teacher and that is Ueshiba Sensei. Only he can excommunicate me". The use of the terms Tomiki-ryu, Tomiki System, etc. prompted an austere look and resolute manner, "It was never my aim to create competitive aikido for only one specific group". I can recall his politeness and the things he used to say about his cherished ideas. So why was Tomiki Sensei so strongly against having his name used? I think that this was because he had much more sincere and more noble ideas concerning aikido and budo.

At that time he mentioned the name of Kano Shihan to use as an example, "Kano Sensei aimed at creating judo as a modernisation of budo. Although he established judo, we never hear term Kano Judo."

Referring to own's name in this way is shortsighted and won't allow budo to change at all. Tomiki Sensei did not boast about competitive aikido belonging to him but believed it was connected to the development of aikido as a whole and for the benefit of everyone. He believed strongly that without this process aikido would not modernise. This way of thinking was perhaps why he was particular about the name.

Tetsuro Nariyama Shihan

[aikiMac]

In all honesty Tomiki Aikido has never impressed me. But that said I haven't seen very much of it. I find it strange to have competition in an art that promotes a phylosophy of no competition.
That's what I thought until joining MAP and talking about aikido with all the Tomiki folk on this forum. These guys quietly changed my mind 180 degrees about Tomiki aikido. Sylistically I'm still drawn to other flavors of aikido (M. Saotome and John Stevens, in particular) but I now see a very great benefit of tanto-defense competitions. A very great benefit.

[ranger]

Tomiki Kenji Sensei trained under O Sensei for Aikido and Jigaro Kano for Judo.


he was Jigaro Kano's student who Kano sent to O-Sensei to train Aikido, right? and this is why the reason for competitive aikido or aikido that emphasize with more randori? :)

[aikiwolfie]

Yeah I think that's how it happened ranger. But I think Tomiki Sensei still traind in Judo while training in Aikido at the same time. It's all in the links everybody has posted.

[Budd]

In all honesty Tomiki Aikido has never impressed me. But that said I haven't seen very much of it. I find it strange to have competition in an art that promotes a phylosophy of no competition. I also find it difficult to take anybody seriously who is attacking me with a rubber tanto.


Would you prefer to be attacked with a razor-sharp steel or even an unsharpened wooden tanto?

*crickets*

Didn't think so.

As for the oft-quoted "There is no competition" in aikido, I believe that Peter Goldsbury has done some excellent research to show that depending on which translation you buy into, that same statement could be read as "There should be no rivalry in aikido". As for what Ueshiba believed and wanted, Tomiki was considered a favored student of his until Ueshiba's death. Kisshomaru Ueshiba's rise as doshu and the subsequent fractionalism that has persisted to this day in aiki-land is what led to Tomiki breaking ties with the Aikikai (unlike say, Yoshinkan, which is still on friendly terms).

And no, I do not train in Tomiki/Shodokan aikido, although I've trained/corresponded with some very well thought-of practitioners of this style and other derivations. I would love to have an opportunity to experience it first-hand.

[aikiwolfie]

Actualy we do use both wooden and live tanto. I didn't say the competition element was wrong I just find it a little odd that's all. The fact that I haven't seen any tomiki aikidoka who have impressed me doesn't mean it's crap. It just means I haven't been impressed by it. And I'm sorry but the rubber tanto does look stupid.

[aikiwolfie]

Just as an after thought, does anybody use a rubber bokken or jo? Why bother with a rubber tanto?

[ziseez]

we use real ones :eek:

[aikiMac]

When you say "rubber tanto," do you mean firm rubber or floppy rubber? I've used both varieties outside of aikido. I can't imagine doing any aikido with a floppy knife. Ridiculous, I would think. But I can see using a firm rubber tanto. Not that much different from wood.

[aikiwolfie]

Well the ones I have seen were floppy. Why is a rubber tanto used any? I can't see how it would be a saftey issue. Unless it's a sharpened stake you're using a wooden tanto isn't going to kill or hurt anybody that much. And there's still a wooden bokken and jo to clobbered with. Does Tomiki Aikido include defence against the jo and bokken?

I didn't think that comment would cause so much discussion lol.

[ziseez]

yes,i believe,just in higher ranks

[Tintin]

We have a jo and bokken sestion in our 3rd dan syllabus.

5 techniques winning open hand against jo
8 techniques winning with a jo against open hand
5 techniques winning open hand against bokken
8 techniques bokken against bokken

You want to know the point of a foam tanto? Try randori (by this I mean shiai - competition, against a wooden tanto. I did and got a great bruise for my efforts). I don't care what anyone says, against a knife you will very likely get hit. Against a wooden tanto it hurts. A badly judged strike could mash your face. Against a live blade. Mental :eek:

Good post by the way aikibunyee.

[aikiwolfie]

Granted with a live blade both students absolutly must know what they are doing and be confident in their abilities. There is very little, if any, room for error. I certainly wouldn't want to be practicing with a live blade in the hands of a uke who just attacks blindly with no regard or respect for what it is he or she is doing. That said you don't want a uke who is overly hesitant. That can be just as bad.

But back to the rubber tanto. Think of what you just said tintin. You'll use a wooden bokken or jo that could mash your face in if you get it wrong, but when it comes to using a tanto you use a rubber or foam one incase you get it wrong.

I don't think using a rubber tanto is wrong. I personaly just think it looks silly. If it's to avoide getting hurt then think about how many other ways you could get hurt during a practice. Even without a weapon. Anybody ever trip on their hakama? Each to their own I guess.

[Freeform]

a wooden tanto isn't going to kill or hurt anybody that much.

No, a wooden Tanto can hurt you very much, I've had the nasty bruises to prove that little fact.

Col

[aikiwolfie]

Yes a wooden tanto can cause bruises. But bruises heal. Like I said each to their own.

[Freeform]

Yes a wooden tanto can cause bruises. But bruises heal. Like I said each to their own.

Bokken >> So do broken arms ;)

[aikiwolfie]

Bokken >> So do broken arms ;)
Yes they do. Broken shoulders heal to. I damaged all the muscles and ligaments in my right shoulder once when my ukemi didn't work exactly they way it was supposed to. But looking on the bright side I was extremly lucky not to have broken or damaged my neck. I'm sure I would have if I had paniced.

[TheMasterSword]

Even though the rubber "dildo" knives (pardon my french :) ) look silly they are an important learning tool for practicing knife defense......

when you first learn your ukemi's or forward rolls you usually start sitting down or on a kneeling position.... both look rather ridiculous now that you can take a full flippy and land on your backy being all righty but its baby steps... you simply cant throw them into the lion's den and expect them to survive...

at our dojo its a progression first you start with a rubber practice tanto, then move onto a wooden tanto, next maybe a sharpened wooden tanto, then maybe a scissor or dull butter knife to get used to seeing something metal coming at you, then the ever popular live blade....

i can tell ya i've seen white belts come into the dojo even high mudanshakas who have never done tanto defense become jiterry (sp?) when even a rubber tanto comes out and a stabbing motion takes place... now imagine their thoughts after getting those lovely bruises that we get from the wooden tantos (i have even been nicely cut by one)

[TheMasterSword]

Also I think its a wrong assumption that we use all rubber weapons ie. bo jo bokken (kinda an oxymoron when ya think bout it, *for all my fellow japanese linguists)

I think the reason a lot o dojos use the rubber is because it is the only weapon that we use in a randori "atmosphere"

our tomiki katas use the wooden weapons too but its only done in kata and not in randori....unless of course you're o'sensei

imagine going full force with a bokken in a randori match... you could kill, maim, or severly injure someone

[aikiwolfie]

Well that was kinda my point. You don't use a rubber jo or bokken. Why go to that extreme with a tanto. Yes you can get hurt and you can get bruised or even cut. But it's a martial art. If you let the possibility of injuary stop you from practicing you'll never advance.

I am well aware that beginers need to start with basics. I've talked about on the success or failure thread. But there is nothing stoping you attacking a beginer slowly first and building up to a full attack.

The transition from wood to steel is a big one. It's also nerve wracking and for some people terrifying. I am well aware of this. I personaly don't think the introduction of a rubber tanto and a butter knife will make this easier. It just prolongs the inevitable.

It's also wrong to sudjest only O Sensei could do randori with a jo or bokken. As good as O Sensei was, everything he did with regards to martial arts can be acheived by anybody who puts in the time and effort to develop that far. O Sensei was as good as he was because he put in that hard work and dedication.

[ziseez]

well we should use rubber knifes and things to prevent injurys and soemone said with real bokkens and things you must trust the students ability's,well what happens when i sensei assigns a lower student to a higher skilled person and tells them to do it,the higher skilled person would eb trying to keep them both safe form getting hurt.the less skilled one would not get no experience though because he thinks he is doing everything right.
so you gotta put that in mind also,in my opinion fake is always better because what happens if you need to apply the moves while your still healing?

[aikiwolfie]

No fake is not always better. If you're going to learn how to swim then you have to get your feet wet. If you realy want to learn about weapons, how to use them and defend against them then at some point you must advance on to the real thing. Using a real tanto is a totaly different experience from using a wooden or rubber tanto. I agree only students who know what they are doing should be using live weapons.

It is totaly and completly proper that higher students look after lower students. I wouldn't expect anything else on an Aikido mat. It's the same for every element of training including ukemis, techniques, randori and weapons katas. Higher students should always be looking out for the lower students.

Ok what happens if you get attacked while your still healing? Healing from what? A bruise? Broken bones? A bout of "OMFG they use big sticks and I'm scared now"? There are so many opertunities to get injured in Aikido. Broken shoulders from poor ukemis are sadly common. Not that it happens all the time. But the fact remains it's a real possibility.

So you do a ukemi break your shoulder. Next day you're faced with a mugger. What do you do?

Too many people practice Aikido and other martial arts worrying too much about "what if"? You can't live your life worrying about "what if..." all the time. Sometimes you just have to get on with things.

[Tomiki Ryu]

In a nutshell, Tomiki was a great Judo student who was sent by his teacher to learn Aikido. He became one of the best Aikido students and incorporated his Judo experiences into Aikido and Randori (free fighting) was introduced. Randori is NOT meant to boost ones ego or prove that one person is 'better' than another, rather it is 'free play' designed to sharpen ones skills. Kata is nice to learn form but IMO you need to actually fight and see what works and what doesn't. I've had brown belts come to visit from other schools and myself and other low ranking Tomiki students have put them down consistently during Randori. I've only been studying Tomiki Aikido for 8mo (3hrs a week), I should not be able to put down a brown belt. Now I don't think that the style these people took is weak or wrong, I do however think that this example shows very well that free fighting is NEEDED in EVERY style of MA if you ever wish to try and actually use it for self defense. Aikido is a wonderful art and I take because the simple flowing beauty of it and the amazing bodily physics it uses never cease to astound me. But I believe in getting everything out of it that I can, not the least of which is another art for self defense. Aikido has some real gems and the foot work is second to none, but all this is useless if not put into practice. Untill another style incorporates Randori I will be a Tomiki student.

BTW, we use all types of tantos, rubber, wood, whatever. Why does the medium matter as long as it represents a knife? Sorry but anyone who wants to 'practice' with a razor sharp knife is asking for an accident, not to mention the dojo would probably be sued if there was one. We also free fight 1 vs 1 and multiple attackers.

[aikiwolfie]

The medium matters alot. It makes a huge spychological difference. A live tanto feels completly different to both nage and uke. Ask someone to do a ukemi on concrete and watch their reaction.

"Sorry but anyone who wants to 'practice' with a razor sharp knife is asking for an accident, not to mention the dojo would probably be sued if there was one."

Ok first of all every student in the Dojo should be insured. Second, only students at the correct level of training should be practicing with live weapons. So it's unlikely there would be a law suit. If anything it will be an insurance claim.

You could also argue that anybody who does any martial art that involves any element of danger is asking for an accident. Maybe any body who drives a car or gets on a train or bus etc, is asking for an accident.

Maybe we shouldn't send out the coast guard to rescue sailors cought in a storm because they were dumb enough to be there.

Maybe any country that builds up an army is asking to be attacked.

I doubt anybody would agree with those statements. I certainly wouldn't. Using a live tanto is simply a higher form of practice. I feel that using a rubber tanto is taking causion a little too far. And they do look silly, especialy the wobbly ones.

[ziseez]

well if your useing a wooden one your asking for a accident also,rubber ones is just insurance

[Tintin]

Ok, point of clarification.

We use foam tanto's in competition. Of course we do. The aim of the person with the tanto is to strike their opponent. To do so with a metal blade would end in a hospital visit at best, death at worst. I refereed at the student nationals (UK) today, and one guy accidentally took a tanto in the face. Think about it.

I understand the reasons for training against live blades to get over the fear factor of facing a live blade. But for shiai, foam only.

[aikiwolfie]

Yes a live blade in competition would just be stupid. But I think using foam or rubber tantos is being too cauciouse. Both nage and uke should be practicing with a complete control and coordination as much as possible if not all the time. But then again I don't compete in any competition so it's not something I have to worry about.

Ziseez I think you missed the point of my last post. Maybe you should read it again.

Anyway I think my opinion on rubber or foam tantos is dominating this dicussion far too much. Time to move onto something else I think.

[ziseez]

i know i read your last post,but it never hurts to be too carefull.

[aikiwolfie]

i know i read your last post,but it never hurts to be too carefull.
Actualy it can hurt to be too careful. When performing a technique you must do it with complete confidence in your ability. Especialy against a weapon. Hesitation will cause you to mis-time the technique and that is when accidents happen.

Sorry but I don't want to practice Aikido wearing bubble-wrap.

Just out of curiousity what's the highest grade that normaly competes in national competitions? I remember reading somewhere there was a threshhold were students stopped competing.

[Freeform]

I was until recently a student of Tintins (Hiya Martin :D ) and suggesting using a wooden tanto in Shodokan Randori is, frankly, betrays a lack of knowledge about the system. The aim is to put the tanto 'into' the defender, this signifies a 'killing blow' and a commited attack. If uke was to just place the tanto on nages chest where's the dynamic power?

If you used a wooden tanto in this situation you'd end up breaking people, and we don't want this. And before anyone starts, I have practiced with wooden and aluminium training knifes in Tai Jitsu and Escrima, and getting stabbed hurts lots. Although in these styles the aim of the knife weilder is normally a series of slashing attacks.

Cheers,

Col

[aikiwolfie]

Ok well I realy wanted to move away from the tanto thing because it's obviously going nowhere. But freeform does desreve a reply.

When we practice with a wooden tanto weather it's to slash or stab we attack with the power and speed suitable to nages level. So a yellow belt won't receive an attack anywhere near as hard as a black belt. Uke is also supposed to attack with all the coordination and control he would have if he were nage. That doesn't mean uke doesn't attack with intent. He does. However each student is dealing with a level of attack they are ready to deal with. Yellow belts for example are not allowed to go hammer & tongs at each other with a tanto. That would just be stupid.

[Freeform]

When we practice with a wooden tanto weather it's to slash or stab we attack with the power and speed suitable to nages level.

And here's the crux! In randori the guy with the tanto is going all out to get that strike.

CASE CLOSED!

Book 'em Dano! :D

[aikiwolfie]

So when you have two beginers doing tanto randori attacking each other all out what is it exactly that they learn? How to get stabbed?

[DexterTCN]

So when you have two beginers doing tanto randori attacking each other all out what is it exactly that they learn? How to get stabbed?

How not to get stabbed, silly. :rolleyes:

[Tintin]

CASE REOPENED I SUPPOSE

Re-read freeform's post.

The aim is to put the tanto 'into' the defender

A clean successful is seen when the tanto bends. Wood doesn't bend (well not at a visible level). So what will instead? Ribs? Throat?

The aspect of control applies in that the strike doesn't go so deep that you end up punching the opponent.

I agree though, the points have been made, and everyone is sticking by their own arguments. The only answer would be to try it out yourself. You're more than welcome to visit us in Edinburgh anytime. I'd also like to learn some of your aikido sometime if you accept visitors at your club.

Martin

CASE CLOSED AGAIN (OK Freeform?! ;) )

[aikiwolfie]

LOL well I did try to move the discussion on a few posts back.

I'd love to visit sometime tintin if I ever get the chance I'll let you know. So far as visitors to our club goes you'd have to get in touch with my teacher. The details are on the web site www.aikido-uk.org.

[Freeform]

CASE REOPENED I SUPPOSE


CASE CLOSED AGAIN (OK Freeform?! ;) )


Tintin = Court of appeals! :D

Col

[Budd]

I'm amazed that there was even much of a discussion about the subject.

I very much doubt that I'm ever going to feel the need to test myself to the point where I give someone a sharp knife and tell them to try and cut me. I don't care how good you are, if you give me a sharp knife and tell me to try and cut you, then you will get cut.

[aikiwolfie]

Nothing like oozing confidence to get a debate going. But sorry Budd the tanto case was close LOL.

But seriousley I don't think I'm so good I'd never ever ever ever ever get cut with a live tanto. It's not about feeling the need to test your self. It's just another way of pushing the practice to a higher level.

I admit I'm very lucky to be practicing where I am. I have a good teacher and alot of other dan grades to practice with. The highest of which is a 5th dan who has an amazing level of awarness and control.

There have been time where I probably would have gotten cut if I had had another uke. I don't take anything for granted with a live tanto. And a live tanto practice isn't something to be taken lightly. I think I made that point pretty clear in my other posts. If I didn't I'm making it now.

I'm also well aware that other practitioners aren't as fortunate as my self. In some clubs the only dan grade on the mat is the teacher.

[Yoksha]

i want too know 2 things,the lineage and background of who trained under tomiki and i wanna know what kinda style of tomiki really is and what do yall think about it??


In response to the original question...Tomiki Aikido was developed by Kenji Tomiki a long time student of Jigaro Kano (Founder of modern Judo). Tomiki believed that an element of Judo style competition in the practice of Aikido would lead students to develop the spiritual aspects espoused by Ueshiba. Ueshiba was apparently dubious to begin with and asked Tomiki to call his art Aiki judo. He eventually relented and agreed that the Tomiki style was as valid as any of the others (Yoshinkan et al).

There are as many similarities between Tomiki style and traditional as there are differences. Principles of movement, avoidance and blending are the same (mostly), the majority of Tomiki techniques rely on Kuzushi for application. Tomiki style has a more rigid structure where techniques are broken down into Kata. The main kata are: Randori-no-kata which forms the basis for Shiai (competition), Randori-no-kata Ura-waza (counters against the Randori-no-kata), the Koryu-no-kata which are based in traditional technique (Koryu meaning traditional), and the Goshin-ho-no-kata which was recently devloped by Narayama (Shodokan school of Tomiki style) which returns Tomiki style to a more traditional leaning.

Obviously this is a limited description of the Tomiki style, its ideological, practical and organisational aspects are complex and not suitable for inclusion here.

For further information Dr Lee Ah Loi's book "Tomiki Aikido: Randori and Koryu no Kata" is ideal.

It has to be said that many practitioners of Tomiki style have a great respect and affinity for traditional styles. An attitude that is not always reciprocated.

"There are many paths to the top of the mountain, make no assumption that yours is the right one"

[Budd]

Aikiwolfie,

It's not a case of being good, it's just that if someone has a knife and you are empty-handed, they are going to likely cut you. I don't train knife defenses against aiki-tsuki and shomen style stabs. I train against someone that has Phillipino-style escrima/kali knife training and whose attacks resemble very little what you've likely dealt with in aiki-land.

As for quality of instruction. My first aikido instructor was a 5th dan under Frank Doran and now is a 6th dan. Our current group studies under the direction of Ellis Amdur. So we're not lacking in quality instruction, either.

Here's a good test of (somewhat) realistic knife defense skills. Buy a cheap white sweatshirt & sweatpants (or track suit, jumper combo). Then have someone wield a red marker like a knife. Then have then try to cut/stab your body and defend against it. It should be an illuminating practice.

If afterwards you feel confident enough to try this exercise with someone using a live sharp steel tanto, then please post videos, because then I'll know you've got some sort of special magic going.



Nothing like oozing confidence to get a debate going. But sorry Budd the tanto case was close LOL.

But seriousley I don't think I'm so good I'd never ever ever ever ever get cut with a live tanto. It's not about feeling the need to test your self. It's just another way of pushing the practice to a higher level.

I admit I'm very lucky to be practicing where I am. I have a good teacher and alot of other dan grades to practice with. The highest of which is a 5th dan who has an amazing level of awarness and control.

There have been time where I probably would have gotten cut if I had had another uke. I don't take anything for granted with a live tanto. And a live tanto practice isn't something to be taken lightly. I think I made that point pretty clear in my other posts. If I didn't I'm making it now.

I'm also well aware that other practitioners aren't as fortunate as my self. In some clubs the only dan grade on the mat is the teacher.

[Dave Humm]

Forgive my ignorance of Tomiki or Shodokan Aikido however, I thought both these styles of aikido conducted tanto based randori as "competitive" based activity therefore, a rubber/foam 'object' representing a knife was adequate for the purposes of the competition.

Or have I missed the plot ? (which wouldn't be a new concept) :D

Regards

DaveH

[Budd]

Or have I missed the plot ?:D


Yes. :woo:

[aikiwolfie]

No Dave you didn't lose the plot. I just made a comment about rubber tantos looking stupid and I didn't see the need for them, (we were asked for our opinion). That then became to topic of discussion.

As for posting videos Budd I'm not in the habbit of posing. But I do have some video footage of me making defence against a live tanto at my 2nd Dan grading. As it is official Aikido UK footage I will probably need my teachers permission to post it. However I will be updating the Aikido UK web site again soon. Providing I get permission I will post it there and let you know.

So far as Phillipino-style escrima/kali knife training goes it may very well be totaly different to anything I've ever seen. I've never actually seen Phillipino-style escrima/kali knife training before so I can't comment.

Convincing you I have some sort of "special magic" isn't something I need to do. I don't rely on magic. I pay attention in class and try to put into practice what I have been taught.

[Budd]

Then here's my question:

In your defense against a live sharp steel tanto, are you performing prearranged kata where you know the attack and uke's strikes are limited to tsuki and shomen style attacks?

If so, try the drill I mentioned before. It should be an eye opener.

[Freeform]

So far as Phillipino-style escrima/kali knife training goes it may very well be totaly different to anything I've ever seen. I've never actually seen Phillipino-style escrima/kali knife training before so I can't comment.


As having been a student of both, I can say that they are VERY different. The FMA approach is more of a slash (although they do also thrust), than the Aikido thrusting attacks.

Col

[Budd]

This gets a bit off-topic, but I've found the FMAs to have much more variation in their knife attacks, many of which would cause an aikidoka to rethink some of the basic knife defenses.

[aikiMac]

This gets a bit off-topic, but I've found the FMAs to have much more variation in their knife attacks, many of which would cause an aikidoka to rethink some of the basic knife defenses.
Probably true, in large part caused by what Freeform said: FMA tends to slash, whereas aikidoka tend to give stabs. This gave me trouble in the beginning too, but after some experimentation I realized that aikido can work against escrima attacks too. I even demoed standard aikido defenses, at a public fair, against the basic 5 angles of attack from FMA (asterisk + stab). I wanted to demo 12 angles of attack, but I only had two minutes of stage time, so I had to stop at 5 attacks. Anyway, my point is that aikido defenses can work.

The challenge for me was maintaining distance until the proper time ... or as we say in aikido, ma-ai. FMA attacks often come at such a close range that uke's arms are not extended. No extension, no leverage for taking his balance. Bad for nage. But I found ways around this. And I don't for a second believe I'm special.

[Budd]

The challenge for me was maintaining distance until the proper time ... or as we say in aikido, ma-ai. FMA attacks often come at such a close range that uke's arms are not extended. No extension, no leverage for taking his balance. Bad for nage. But I found ways around this. And I don't for a second believe I'm special.

Hi aikiMac,

Was this in cooperative randori/kata or in free-sparring randori? I've found that the strikes are much easier to adjust to when you have uke deliberately attacking with overcommitment. It's a lot harder when uke knows a thing or two about ma-ai, timing and retracting strikes. Hence, that's why I recommend the marker drill.

[aikiMac]

Hi aikiMac,

Was this in cooperative randori/kata or in free-sparring randori? I've found that the strikes are much easier to adjust to when you have uke deliberately attacking with overcommitment.
Well, duh! And wouldn't we like all punches to be wild haymakers.

It was a public demo. It was choreographed and rehearsed. But I based my moves off of FMA drills. The famous "box pattern" is choreographed and rehearsed too, but I don't think there's a FMA instructor on the planet who would stop teaching it. Uke fed me #1 through #5. I passed them. Uke fed #1. I did some aikido thing. I think I passed it and did a kokyu-nage. Start over. I passed #1, and did some aikido thing on #2. Maybe it was sheonage. I don't remember. Start over. I passed #1, passed #2, did some aikido thing on #3. You get the idea. We had the FMA flow going and uke was close enough to cut my neck if I didn't move, but all my takedowns and disarms were were distinctly aikido, because this was an aikido demonstration.

[Budd]

Hi aikiMac,

My point is not that drills aren't worthwhile. It's that it's useful when they lead up to some sort of randori free-sparring (which I believe many FMAers will also agree with) in order to work "outside the box". I'm sure your demonstration was lovely.

[aikiwolfie]

The attacks I have faced so far include slashes and stabs to the neck/side of head and stabs to the gut. So as a live tanto goes I'm certainly a beginner.

I know if I don't try I'll never know what it's like to face a live blade. And that could be to my cost. From the experience I've had so far it's totaly different from wood. But weapons are a part of Aikido. They might not be an essential part but they are taught where I practice and I see no good reason not to join in.

If we train properly then using weapons, sharp, blunt, wood, rubber or foan is as safe as any other part of training.

[Budd]

If we train properly then using weapons, sharp, blunt, wood, rubber or foan is as safe as any other part of training.

How are you going to safely train free-sparring with a sharp tanto?

[aikiwolfie]

If you've read through this thread you'll notice I did say using a live tanto in competition would be stupid.

But if you want to do free sparring with a live tanto do it when your ready. Take the time to train you're awareness, reflexes, study how people move, how they attack, how you can counter or evade, how you can improve your own movement.

In essance study the martial art you have chosen. Don't just learn the ABCs. You'll never be able to guarantee you won't ever get cut. But you can't guarantee a ukemi is always going to go to plan. You might trip on your hakama or the mat or a another student. I've seen a few people break a shoulder that way. And I was one of them.

[Dave Humm]

Not sure if I've mentioned this here on on the Bullshido fora.. Anyway, a very large portion of my aikido has been with the United Kingdom Aikikai. One of the quotes I remember from my early days with the UKA was Mr. Smith saying..
Always assume your attacker is armed
I've pretty much employed that approcah to my own aikido since then, basing it upon 'armed with a knife' being the most commonly and easily carried weapon.

My own experiences as a Prison Officer have lead me to (painfully) understand that no matter what form of attack is used, the 'defending' party is always going to come away with some form of injury be it from a punch, kick or whatever. I think the severity of injury is proberbly the important issue relating to how effective one has been in defending one's self.

My very limited exposure to competiton based aikido is that it is governed by rules (correct?) the attacks are known (because both parties study the same art) and the point of the competition is to score points through making as clean a 'strike' with the foam tanto or, perform a clean technique from the attack.

Where in this competion based application does 'realism' fall ? I mention realism purely because "live blades" & "wooden tanto" have been mentioned, both would have serious implications for the receiver if used in a competitive environment.

I'd like to ask Shodokan/Tomiki students about their mental attitude towards competition.

Do you guys feel it's "self defence ?"

I'm not interested in your definitions of the phrase, but more interested in what is flowing through your mind during competition. When you perform a technique, do you feel you are defending against a life or death 'knife based situation' or, purely from a competitive 'I just scored a point' basis ?

Many thanks

Dave

[Freeform]

I'd like to ask Shodokan/Tomiki students about their mental attitude towards competition.

Do you guys feel it's "self defence ?"


Tintins might shoot me for this, I don't like the term 'competition', it implies a winner and a looser. I like the term randori (free practice), this implies two people training together with the aim being development of technique and self, doesn't matter if your lose you may take more away than the other guy. I view randori as a training aid, not an end to your training.

Oh yeah, I don't view it as SD. Just a training aid, like hubad in FMA or chi sau in Wing chun.

cheers,

Col

[Budd]

I'm not a Shodokan guy, but Dave knows that's never stopped me from offering an opinion :p but my thoughts on randori (free-sparring, not the multiple attacker grab-grab-shomen-yokomenuchi stuff) have been that they are not analogous to self-defense and that it's really where you get to find things out and try out your techniques on someone that doesn't want you to do them. If there are folks out there that do this with a sharp steel tanto, I'd love to see it, because if any of my group tried this, pretty much every practice would involve multiple people getting sliced -- and it's not that we aren't good at aikido, we're just also good at using a knife.

So, with that in mind, in my randori practice I want both players to have equal access to a variety of attacks (delivered efficiently with intent, such that you could conceivably land one on a good striker/grappler) and then have defenses that aren't gimmes and involve the momentary nage being forced to adapt to uke as uke tries to escape/counterattack.

This practice is not something you can really throw newbies into. That's why the paired kata and one-step sparring drills help build up a toolbox and gradually increase resistance-based interactions. An important component is training against stuff that you don't know is coming -- I've never agreed with some of the more traditional schools saving their versions of "randori" for advanced belts -- that's always been how I've learned to make techniques really work. Include these things in your practice and you'll find that aikido doesn't have to be something that someone has to study for years and years and years in order to use effectively.

[Tintin]

No arts randori is 'real', if by real you mean no rules - biting, gouging, etc. They can only cater for a subset of all possibilities.

Aikido randori covers maybe two main areas: timing of an attack for an instant technique... Hmmm, harder to explain than I thought. :confused:

Closest I can come for this is saying the taking of a technique at the opportunity presented as an opponent is executing their own technique.
The other is when both players are in connection, much like judo, feeling for the movement of the other for the moment of weakness.

I agree with freeform, there is a definite difference between randori and shiai. Maybe there shouldn't be, but we're only human.

My attitude toward competition is that I enjoy it. Simple as that. When I'm involved I'll try to win. Of course I will, that's the point of competition, but I'll do it in the way that Tomiki intended - to learn about your own abilities and limitations. Tomiki himself was very scornful of those who would win a couple of points, then 'spoil' the rest of the fight by playing defensively. The aim should be good aikido. You'll get a lot more respect for that and losing than someone who wins by negative methods.

[Shinkei]

As a Tomiki stylist I agree with Tintin I practice randori for enjoyment.Randori is only a part of the Tomiki/Shodokan system. No Tomiki stylist would view Tanto Randori as knife self defence no more than a Judoka would view Judo randori as a real fight or a kendoka would Shiai as a real sword battle. In Tomki Aikido we use wooden weapons in the Koryu Dai San & the koryu dai Roku Kata's. The use of a rubber or soft knife is for Randori or Shiai safety reasons. My mental attitude when I used to compete was to try and win the bout not very spiritual I know. If you think to much about what you are going to do in randori then you will not succeed as your opponant does not cooperate (Mushin). I would say that when I practice Kata this take me to a higher level mentally, I am very lucky that I was taught by one of the best Kata teacher around Dr Lee ah Loi.

[notquitedead]

Granted with a live blade both students absolutly must know what they are doing and be confident in their abilities. There is very little, if any, room for error. I certainly wouldn't want to be practicing with a live blade in the hands of a uke who just attacks blindly with no regard or respect for what it is he or she is doing. That said you don't want a uke who is overly hesitant. That can be just as bad.
That's one of the funniest things I've heard on this forum in a while. The point of training against a knife isn't to do a technique perfect on an opponent who "respects what he or she is doing". The opponent should be trying to hit you with the knife. That's why people who are doing serious training use fake knives... people get hit.

If you are using 'live' knives (as in a sharp, metal ones) your training must be compliant. If it is, what's the point?

[kiaiki]

I disagree completely with the view that live tanto practice should, by definition, be 'compliant'. In Shudokan we grade at 1st Dan and above with live tanto in a series of freestyle random attacks. Yes, people have been cut, some badly, but what's the point (forgive the pun) of using live tanto and not providing a committed attack?

We build up to this over many years with wooden tanto and prescribed attacks, woooden tanto and random attacks, steel (not live) tanto and finally live tanto. At this level, the attacker is far from 'compliant' and will use every attack he/she knows as well as deception (switching hands etc).

Psychologically, we all focus badly and are all afraid of a steel blade at first, and I don't know of any good BB who does not have huge respect for the weapon he is defending against or, for that matter, when he is the attacking uke. However, the defences are the same as for woden tanto and a steel tanto forces you not to be sloppy when 'taking' or forcing a release, or in matters of judging distance. After some time, the live tanto becomes less of an issue and you focus, as you should, on the correct technique.

Shudokan is Yoshinkan derived and may have slightly 'harder' roots than some styles. It also has a strong SD component and in a SD context, if the sight of a sharp blade freaks you out then you may wind up very dead. We trained with live tanto and katana in the past - modern Shudokan still does so, but has a more 'streetwise' focus involving a wide range of weapons. Yes, we do expect cuts, but our training means that nobody is brought close to death before they are ready.

Did anyone mention this is a 'martial' art? By all means do it as a hobby and protect yourself for your day today existence, but if you wish to go beyond that into real risk areas, there are opportunities to do so. Poncing about with 'compliance' with a live blade is like shadow boxing - naff all use to anyone. Shudokan is now almost the largest single MA organisation in the UK so it needs to be distinguished from 'Shodokan' Tomiki style in this respect.

[aikiwolfie]

The point I was making Pankration90 is that you only move onto live weapons practice when you are ready to do so. Which is the same point I've made with regard to live weapons throught the entire thread. Not that it should be compliant. The very fact that uke should be giving a commited attack is the very reason why both parties need to know what they are doing.

[notquitedead]

I disagree completely with the view that live tanto practice should, by definition, be 'compliant'. In Shudokan we grade at 1st Dan and above with live tanto in a series of freestyle random attacks. Yes, people have been cut, some badly, but what's the point (forgive the pun) of using live tanto and not providing a committed attack?
Obviously the guy with the knife isn't trying very hard if the other guy is still alive....

[Shinkei]

I think that the answer by kiaiki answers why in Tomiki/Shodokan randori or Shiai we do not use a steel or wooden (safety). I have competed both at national level and international level within the European Aikido Association, I can assure you that the Tant does contact at times this is how tskiari is scored, if a steel or wooden tanto was used both aikidoka could end up with serious injuries, steel or wood crashing into ribs would cause damage. Tomiki Aikido also has Toshu Randori with both Aikidoka trying to apply Aikido waza . As said in my last post Kendoka use Shinai rather than boken or steel katana in Geiko for safety reasons does anyone question that. As for using a live blade in a shodan examination this must be done with some holding back by the knife man, as there would not be any candidates for second dan if this was done for real. Although I must say that my experience of Shudokan is very limited practised once at a EAF with Ken knowles group course. Main stream Yoshinkan I have practiced with David Rubbens when he visited Jugokan Dr Lee's Dojo a couple of times.
What make Aikido interesting for me is that there are different approaches, Essex Aikido Forum have been putting together courses for the past couple of years with most of the major styles being taught.

[aikiwolfie]

Obviously the guy with the knife isn't trying very hard if the other guy is still alive....
Pankration90 if you're not going to take a discussion about live weapons seriousley don't participate.

Shinkei could you try and use paraghraphs in future. :p

[Shinkei]

I thought this was an Aikido Forum. Lets keep the posts on the subject rather than get into bashing each other.
Yeap my English is crap but I do have thirty years of Aikido training behind me so I may some point that people are interested in

Shaun Hoddy

[notquitedead]

Pankration90 if you're not going to take a discussion about live weapons seriousley don't participate.
I am serious. Either you guys are doing the knife training compliantly or with prescripted attacks, or the guy with the knife isn't trying.

Watch some people fight without holding back. They get hit. It's no different when one guy has a knife in his hands- you can't block or grab everything.

[aikiwolfie]

Watch some people fight without holding back. They get hit. It's no different when one guy has a knife in his hands- you can't block or grab everything.So you're saying all the variouse martial arts you've trained in don't work :confused:

Pankration90 weapons training like any other form of training is something people work on and build upto gradually. If it were the case that tori only survied a knife attack during training because uke wasn't trying very hard, then it would be the same for all attacks. Armed or unarmed. And it would also be as true for any martial art as it would be for Aikido.

Perhaps I should also point out that so far as I am aware there are no blocks in Aikido (at least not where I train). Particuarly for live weapons. There are however deflections. Nobody moves to try and block or grab anything.

Shinkei when you take a new paragraph press the return/enter key twice so that it leaves a blank line. This will make your post far more reader friendly :)

[Dave Humm]

...If you are using 'live' knives (as in a sharp, metal ones) your training must be compliant. If it is, what's the point?Above all else, safety.

When faced with a situation where we believe we are in harms way, the naturally physiological response is a serious dump of adrenalin. If we aren't ready for what our body is doing to us (for which we have no control over) our physical levels of response are diminished. What should be a chemical overload in order to help our body cope with injury; can often turn the unprepared person into a target of opportunity.

Learning to deal with a knife wielding adversary isn't easy; I know from personal experience of working within high security prison facilities, that psychologically speaking, trying to deal with an unarmed person is quite different from one you know has something pointy in their hand. The actual reality is; there is no difference. Both are equally and potentially life threatening, we just focus on the knife because its there.

As students of aikido our aim is to deal with the 'person' and not simply something being thrust at you (in terms of this thread... A knife) A lesson I learned whist a prison officer is always assume the person stood in front of you is armed, and thusly you deal with all situations with the same psychological attitude regardless.

Now, with respect to training with live blades. Personally, and speaking with some years within aikido, I don't feel there is an actual need to train with a cutting edged knife. Working with a wooden weapon serves exactly the same purpose providing the instructor attaches the right mental attitude to the physical skills. That said I admit to having trained with a live edge early in my aikido and did so willingly. It was however an entirely un-necessary risk.

The dynamics of knife attacks (and I've seen a few in the course of my job) are really no different to unarmed strikes. The key is not being on the peripheral line where the blade is wielded but inside the circle of your opponent. This principle is at the foundation of aikido technique anyway so, by learning quality technique, being in the right place at the right time, and learning to control the physiological responses to threat, you deal directly with the person and not the knife.

Indeed we could expand on the use of the knife, to the use of the sword. Then issues of safety really do get quite serious. ...your training must be compliant. If it is, what's the point? !! SAFETY !! That's why.

[aikiwolfie]

Working with a wooden weapon serves exactly the same purpose providing the instructor attaches the right mental attitude to the physical skills.I woul like to agree. However in my experience the reality is often very different. Students faced with a steel blade live or not must once again learn to focus on the attacker and not the weapon. The sheer novalty and shock factor creates of a live blade can create a tremendouse amount of fear in a student that they need to get over. It's no where near like using wood.

[Dave Humm]

Hence my preceding statement of ;

"..providing the instructor attaches the right mental attitude to the physical skills"

What does a blade weilding uke alter in our aikido technique ?

[notquitedead]

So you're saying all the variouse martial arts you've trained in don't work
Getting hit doesn't mean your training has been a waste of time. Watch people spar. They get hit. Watch people fight. They get hit, too.

Perhaps I should also point out that so far as I am aware there are no blocks in Aikido (at least not where I train).
When I say "block", I'm not talking about a specific motion...I meant to include any way of defending against something ("deflections" included).

Above all else, safety.
I think you misunderstood my point.

What reason is there for using live blades? To make the training more realistic than if you were using fake ones. If in the act of trying to make it more realistic (by using real knives), you have to start being compliant (to stay safe), then you are making your training less realistic... why not just use fake knives or knives with marking edges and not hold back?

!! SAFETY !! That's why.
lol. If you are worried about safety, what are you doing letting your partner attack you with a real knife?

[aikiwolfie]

Hence my preceding statement of ;

"..providing the instructor attaches the right mental attitude to the physical skills"
What does a blade weilding uke alter in our aikido technique ?

A blade weilding uke alters only the students perception of the attack.

Personaly I think it should be the case that a weapon regardless of what it is made of should be taken as a seriouse threat and thus the technique should be the same.

However reality doesn't work out that way. Even when you adopt a seriouse attitude to training with wood. The introduction of a live weapon still generates that initial shock factor which does impact on the students ability to perform. And that is a problem I feel should be tackled in training.

[Dave Humm]

Point 1 : Most "real" knife injuries are sustained with an edged weapon less than an inch long. Most commonly a craft knife blade such as a Stanley knife. In these instances, unless a person watched their attacker take this out their pocket, or saw them holding it, it is unlikely they'll know it's there. Most knife carrying criminals do so because they lack the social and physical skills to perpetrate their crimes without one thus. It is very unlikely they will 'advertise' the fact in advance of their intended act.

Point 2 : *IF* a person knew there was a knife at play, the moment they focus on it, they've let their focus drift from the important issue. The Person.

Point 3 : *IF* a person fails to react appropriately to the "threat" of assault, that means deal with the PERSON before they have the advantage; it doesn't matter one iota if the 'attacker' has a blade or not.

Point 4 : There is nothing (in the traditional aikido sense) remotely resembling how a street thug will attack their victim with a blade within Aikido training. And unless one has an instructor with some form of experience in this, it is unlikely their students will ever be aware of what to expect. (No matter how much live blade 'training' they do in the dojo)

Point 5 : Having counseled a number of knife carrying (convicted) criminals, almost all of them would stab or wound (penetrate their victims by some method) BEFORE doing anything else. Most of these injuries being sustained from the rear or rear flanks.

Point 6 : Knife 'fights' just don't happen (unless it's between organised gangs etc)

The 'point' I’m attempting to make is that although Aikido includes the tanto within the system, the method by which it is used and the applications against those 'attacks' are entirely outdated and have absolutely no relevance to what will occur in a 'real' environment. This is why I personally feel, 'training' with a live edged weapon is an un-necessary risk. Learning how to 'apply' yourself, anticipating potential problems within your environment and increasing one's situational awareness, which as we know comes from hard dedicated training, is IMHO far more beneficial.

[aikiMac]

I like that last post, #81. Makes sense to me.
:)

[kiaiki]

I agree with everything Dave has posted, but also agree with the view by aikiwolfie that the sight of a shiny sharp steel blade does provide a greater challenge (fear if you like) to be overcome.

As I posted earlier, I believe it actually helps you get to the point Dave mentioned, where you deal with the attacker rather than the weapon. I wouldn't have liked only to train with a wooden tanto as it fails to provide a proper separation of blade and handle and cannot therefore show up sloppy handling (to tori, particularly) quite as well. I'm not suggesting we need to bleed on the mats, however, every time we make a mistake! A steel tanto with the edge removed should be employed until the tori is ready for live tanto work.

I'm not sure about the relevance of the dojo attacks to street attacks - I'm sure this will vary according with each style and school. We certainly used 'street stuff' but only in the random attack at BB level, not as 'traditional' Shudokan aikido curriculum content. Yes, knife 'fights' are are, but muggings with a knife as a threat are quite regularly in the news. The teenagers I worked with carried them daily, sometimes to defend themselves against such muggings. Yes, hand over your mobile, but they may kill you anyway. I know that what I learned has been useful but agree that, like all SD, it depends greatly on the instructor's 'real' experience.

The thread was on Tomiki and I'm still not sure if many Tomiki classes offer even wooden tanto work, but I admit I've only seen a couple.

[notquitedead]

http://www.stavacademy.co.uk/mimir/images/fairbairn-44.gif

http://www.stavacademy.co.uk/mimir/gettough10.htm

[kiaiki]

Coo. I've never seen a chart before - wonder what it means...can pointy knives hurt you, then??

I'm only impressed by the breach of copyright and the fact that you've now made MAP liable for it. Unless you are the author? (I don't know as you don't even credit the poor guy.)

[aikiwolfie]

Post #81 makes alot of sense to me to. however self dence from muggers etc was never the issue. So far as self defence goes I think Aikido weapons techniques are as relevant as any Aikido technique.

As for people who carry knives for mugging etc. The police in Glasgow confiscate everything from box knives, stanley knives, metal combes and fishing knives all the way upto Katans. Those who might rob you may use something they can hide. However those who simpley want to hurt you use what ever is to hand.

[notquitedead]

Happy now, Kiaki?

Btw, it's from a WW2-era manual so I doubt anyone would care if it's spread around the internet... I've seen it on several sites and forums.

I just posted it because I think it's odd that aikiwolfie's dojo trains with live blades (sharp and made of metal) and does so without being compliant (so the two "partners" aren't holding back, ie the one with the knife is trying as hard as he can to cut or stab the other one) and yet no one has died yet.

How did you guys get that dojo insured? :p

[kiaiki]

Aikiwolfie - The police must be very, very efficient where you are!!

Sadly, we see police about as often as rocking horse dung. Weekend nights in rural towns and small cities see many acts of serious violence, but very few police. My last really bad experience left me facing a bunch of lads with an assortment of weapons - they didn't like me as I had helped put away their drug-dealer mate who was selling to schoolkids INSIDE a school I helped manage. Luckily, a crowd came out of a nearby park and they screamed of in their car. The police arrived half an hour later - at the wrong place.

Local lads often have 'tactical' type folders and small sheath knives - all cheap stuff but still effective in size etc. Our police now assume every incident of violence will have someone carrying one and wear the vests on all such occasions.

The following week, a kid was joyriding and two cars full of police in stab vests turned up within 10 mins - but only because they were getting ready for their annual party at nearby Stonehenge and fancied a warm-up!

Pankration - lots of dojos train with live weapons. Shudokan has 3,000 students and does so. They don't need the BAB for insurance - lots of organisations ofer it. I've asked other MA's locally and they also use live weapons without insurance problems. Until I looked at MAP I honestly had never considered it as a problem.

[Dave Humm]

Post #81 makes alot of sense to me to. however self dence from muggers etc was never the issue. So true.. Self defence from muggers wasn't the subject but, why do we study a "martial art" if, at some very basic level, it isn't so we might be equipped (however moderatly that may be) with some form of self preservation skill ? Other wise your argument for the use and benefit of a live edged weapon in our training sort of falls flat on it's face....So far as self defence goes I think Aikido weapons techniques are as relevant as any Aikido techniqueHow many situations have you faced where a knife has been intentionally employed against you with malice? I love aikido and everything about it but I can assure you (based on several years uniformed experience) aikido (insert your style here) needs a very high standard of skill to be effective against a half commited individual who intends to harm you with a knife, and the 'normal' applications - Shomen, Yokomen, Tsuki, don't equip you enough. Trust me I have the scars to prove what I'm talking about...As for people who carry knives for mugging etc. The police in Glasgow confiscate everything from box knives, stanley knives, metal combes and fishing knives all the way upto Katans. Those who might rob you may use something they can hide. However those who simpley want to hurt you use what ever is to hand.Again very true, I don't deny that all manor of edged weapons have been and will continue to be used to assault fellow human beings but, what we're discussing are the merits of live bladed training, and in relation to Shodokan Aikido (and aikido in general), the knife, nothing else.

Dave

[aikiwolfie]

your argument for the use and benefit of a live edged weapon in our training sort of falls flat on it's face.My original argument here for using a live blade was purely that it is a higher form level of training. I don't see why self defence has to come into that.
How many situations have you faced where a knife has been intentionally employed against you with malice? I love aikido and everything about it but I can assure you (based on several years uniformed experience) aikido (insert your style here) needs a very high standard of skill to be effective against a half commited individual who intends to harm you with a knife, and the 'normal' applications - Shomen, Yokomen, Tsuki, don't equip you enough. Trust me I have the scars to prove what I'm talking about.I've never been attacked by a big nasty bad man with a knife on the street. However I was attacked with a 12" blade from a set of garden sheers. And I don't have any scars to prove it.
Again very true, I don't deny that all manor of edged weapons have been and will continue to be used to assault fellow human beings but, what we're discussing are the merits of live bladed training, and in relation to Shodokan Aikido (and aikido in general), the knife, nothing else.
Which is why self defence was never the issue here.

[Dave Humm]

I've never been attacked by a big nasty bad man with a knife on the street.
Neither have I.. All my experiences were with convicted Catagory A prisoners with nothing much to loose from their actions.

With reference to a "higer level" of training each to their own.

[aikiwolfie]

Neither have I.. All my experiences were with convicted Catagory A prisoners with nothing much to loose from their actions.
Well Catagory A prisoners have to come from somewhere. :p
With reference to a "higer level" of training each to their own.Which is what i said way back at the start of the thread. :)

[Dave Humm]

Indeed

[Rebel Wado]

Hello, this is my first post here. I have to admit that I'm here because Pankration90 was asking me all sorts or questions about Aikido on a different forum and so I had to see why he was asking so much. I came here and read some of the stuff and it looks pretty good.

Anyway, to the subject of live blades. I think it was Dave Humm that said something about the right mental attitude for knives. I agree that is a very important piece of training, such things as treating all training weapons as real to avoid learning bad habits like handing weapons back to an uke, or even bad habits like helping an uke get up off the ground. You will fight how you train and if you train in these bad habits to become seated instinct, they very well might come out as what you do in a stressful situation.

With live blades there is more of a safety issue than with trainers -- that's pretty obvious. Lethal force is not something to be taken lightly. I've done some live blade training and it did have that shock factor to it. Really helps to keep you from building bad habits too. However, all the live blade training was done at a very slow speed. We worked on technique, not fighting. Slower speed training can help develop better technique because your mind can better comprehend and learn the details of technique. It also helps to develop better technique against larger opponents because at slower speeds you can't use speed and strength to compensate for bad technique. Remember that Aikido is about learning principles first, not about techniques. Principles like learning to down an opponent in the same direction they are moving. The techniques are only the application of principles, so at slow speeds you must apply and understand those principles or the technique will be crap.

At faster speeds, live blades are very dangerous and we have only used them at speed in demonstration and the cuts were out of range for safety. This is why I do not believe you should train live blades at full speed, because you build the unhealthy habit of striking out of range for safety. At full speed you have to have the right mental attitude that the weapon is real, you do not strike out of range with a real weapon, you try to cut the other. At the same time, the tori is going to do what it takes to survive. You know the saying that you should love others in Aikido, and if the attacker comes at you with a knife they must be sick, and if you love them, it is your duty to help them go see the doctor. :)

The uke must give good attack with intention. If you do that with real knives, that is not training, it is called a death match.

Now I talked about slow training and the benefits of it. Well training at speed has benefits too. Randori and such at faster speeds, up to full speed helps to develop footwork and gain experience in fighting -- So long as the uke give good attacks and offers appropriate resistance.

So slower speed training to work out the details of technique, faster speed training against resistance to gain experience in fighting.

Just my humble opinion.

[Dave Humm]

Hi Wado.

Welcome to "MAP" :) or should I have said "madhouse" :D

Dave

[aikiwolfie]

Welcome to MAP Rebel :) Nice post.

[Shinkei]

undefinedThe thread was on Tomiki and I'm still not sure if many Tomiki classes offer even wooden tanto work, but I admit I've only seen a couple.[/QUOTE]

In answer to the above question from Kiaiki about the use of wooden tanto work in Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido, is that within the group that I was taught by we use wooden tanto for all our Kata practice.

Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido has two kata that have Tanto Dori one being Koryu dai San or koryu goshin Kata and the Koryu dai roku, this kata also has a tanto nage section this requires the use of a wooden tanto to make techniques work.

I was very luck to have a Sensei who had a great knowlege of the Koryu No Kata of Tomiki Aikido and other weapons systems Dr Lee hold the rank of 7th Dan Aikido, 7th Dan Jodo, 7th Dan Iaido.

Sadly within some Tomiki/Shodokan groups apart from the Dai San & Dai Yon the Koryu No Kata has been neglected over the years as these were the only koryu requirement for examination, although this is being redressed now.

Students who followed Dr Lee and the European Aikido Association had to learn all six Koryu No Kata to advance within their grades.

The Koryu No Kata use various weapon Tanto Boken, Jo these include Tanto Dori, Tanto Nage. Tachi Dori, Kumi Tachi. Yari Dori, Yari Nage.

I hope that this answers some of the issues raised about Tomiki Aikido.

Shaun Hoddy

[kiaiki]

Thanks Shinkei. That's the most informative post I've read for ages. Ta :)

Hi Rebel Wado. I would never strike off-target with a live blade as it meses up timing and distance for the proper execution of a technique. and, unless, you are very clever, looks bad in a demo. Strike on-target and give tori the energy needed for a good technique.

I've only ever seen beginners hand back a knife in freestyle, usually resulting in much mirth. :)

There's fun to be had at the other extreme too - place the knife far away from uke with yourself in between and when they go for it - take em down (shomenate is a favourite)! Tori should be totally dominant on the mat in freestyle and this surprises the beejasus out of a uke. Our freestyle has no 'rules' as such so a pre-emptive attack from tori is not forbidden, although this is the only time I've seen it used with a weapon.

[aikiwolfie]

Happy now, Kiaki?

Btw, it's from a WW2-era manual so I doubt anyone would care if it's spread around the internet... I've seen it on several sites and forums.

I just posted it because I think it's odd that aikiwolfie's dojo trains with live blades (sharp and made of metal) and does so without being compliant (so the two "partners" aren't holding back, ie the one with the knife is trying as hard as he can to cut or stab the other one) and yet no one has died yet.

How did you guys get that dojo insured? :pI don't know how I managed to miss this. However I feel this point is being laboured over far too much. Haven't I already stated that it is a level of practice you build upto. Just like any other type of practice.

Compliance as I see it is falling down for the sake of falling down. Pretending tori executed the technique. I think that is far more dangerouse than training with a knife. Purley because now that individuale has a false sense of security in what they can do.

And why would it be odd that where I train we use live blades? Many dojos around the world train with live blades. It's not even unique within the UK.

Even though they might be outlawed soon, high quality live blades both tantos and katans are on sale in the UK. And anybody 18 or over can buy them with very little fuss. It's actually easier to buy a tanto than it is to go into Dixons and pay for an item with cash. That is what I find most disturbing about live blades.

It might not be the norm for Tomiki circles. But I don't do Tomiki Aikido. It's also an element of practice reserved for higher grades where I train. It's not even normally done when kyu grades are on the mat.

While some people are considering how dangerouse a live blade is. Consider how dangerouse a bokken is. A wooden sword. A strike to the head with a bokken could kill just as easily as a live tanto or katana. Especially if the bokken is made from good quality hard wood.

Even where the head is not the target or point of impact using a bokken is still very dangerouse. Even a poor quality bokken will easily break bones with a powerful enough strike. Broken bones that heal badly require several operations to correct. The duration of the treatment and healing time here can take years.

Similarly should a powerful poke with a jo find it's target the consequences could be fatal. Internal bleeding can go undetected for a long time. And by the time symptoms appear it could be too late.

How many people stop and think about how dangerouse these weapons are? Does insurance suddenly become a primary concern when the teacher orders students to take out their jo's and bokkens? I'm betting for most people "No" is the answer.

How dangerouse is ukemi practice. Seriously how dangerouse it it to place yourself in a situation where you could easily break either your neck or a shoulder if you do it wrong? After they've learnt a basic ukemi most people probably don't even give it a second thought. Even though stories of broken shoulders and damaged backs and necks from poor ukemi are common place in Aikido dojos up and down the land and all over the world. I would bet almost everybody who practices Aikido knows somebody who has hurt themselves badly in this way.

Aikido doesn't suddenly become fataly dangerouse because a live blade has been introduced to the practice. The response that the suggestion of a live blade has produced in this thread illustraights the shock factor I was talking about earlier.

Since Dave has brought the self defence issue into the discussion lets take that into consideration for a moment. Now I'm not about to suggest that Aikido attacks and defences will prepare anybody to deal with a knife on the street. However if a student can be so easily rattled purley by the suggestion of a knife, then how would that same student react to suddenly finding themselves in a dangerouse situation.

It doesn't even have to be a situation such as a mugging or any sort of fight. It only has to be a situation where the stress endured will force the student to make rash decisions or even worse. To shut down and freeze completely.

How does an Aikido teacher deal with this problem. Does he say "that's too dangerouse and I see no need to take that risk"? Does he say "oh just maintain your center and you'll be fine". Or should the teacher give the student experience of dealing with more and more intense situations that the student can learn to deal with in the safety of the dojo and under the guidance of the teacher?

The teachers response doesn't have to be a live tanto practice. However conducted properly, it is as valid as any other option.

Personally for me using a live blade during practice is something I do because it's another tool for me to use to improve on my Aikido.

I appologise for the rant. :)

[Rebel Wado]

Thanks for the welcome everyone. :)

kiaiki, I may have misinterpreted your last post, but are you saying that you train with live blades and in that training you attack with full speed and force as to be said to be intent to kill with those live blades? Or to put it differently, on a scale of 1 to 100%, with 100% being full out trying to kill the other, what speed and intensity do you conduct your live blade training at?

It doesn't even have to be a situation such as a mugging or any sort of fight. It only has to be a situation where the stress endured will force the student to make rash decisions or even worse. To shut down and freeze completely.

How does an Aikido teacher deal with this problem. Does he say "that's too dangerouse and I see no need to take that risk"? Does he say "oh just maintain your center and you'll be fine". Or should the teacher give the student experience of dealing with more and more intense situations that the student can learn to deal with in the safety of the dojo and under the guidance of the teacher?

There is not one right answer I suspect, but just to tell I little more from my perspective, why even care as an Aikido teacher? In the bigger picture there are no styles of martial arts when it comes to fighting. Everything falls under the category of martial arts. Martial arts is all inclusive, so why say that it is Aikido when it really is reality based self-defense training that you are hinting at. I don't defend against knives only using Aikido, I use concepts and experience, and anything that works to get the job done. I've found that there are a few concepts that I have trained that work much better than others verse armed attackers, like how to "catch" and how to "pin" delivery systems from which I can apply my techniques. If you don't have that "catch" and that "pin" developed, I pretty much guarentee that the majority of your techniques will not work against a knife wielding attacker that is say a hundred pounds bigger than you, and I mean one with minimal skill. If they are a skilled knife fighter, your odds of getting it to work are much, much, smaller.

If you are introducing counter knife training for self-defense then why not train it the same manner that we do in RBSD, not try to incorporate it into Aikido. Aikido training has so many benefits, one of which is to help you develop your warrior spirit and inner peace, so that you can act with "no mind" and with purpose.

If someone is afraid, that is natural, but what is it that they are fighting for, not their lives as for some that is not enough. I often tell them to picture going to their car in a dark parking lot and seeing a bunch of thugs around their car, how do they feel, what do they do? They are often afraid and go back inside and wait for the thugs to leave. I then give them the same scenario and add that these thugs are harrassing their daughter or son or wife or husband or any loved one. They are still afraid, but they know inside that they have to do something.

What are you fighting for in your training? You want realism, start with what is inside a person, that tiger/wolf, never give up attitude inside the warrior.

Aikido is about principles and about spirituality, inner peace. The seasoned warrior, the one that has engaged in battles and knows how to fight already, can benefit from Aikido.

Train how you like, but everything you train in is not Aikido. But that is okay, because everything is still martial arts.

[Dave Humm]

Aikido is ...about spirituality, inner peace.
Aikido is many things to many people. And that's another debate. :)

I've never studied any other martial art (except Iaijutsu) so the aikido I’ve studied has been all I've had, and it’s served me well.

Aikido as a system, like ANY martial art doesn't equip the student with the will to fight. You either have that or you don't. Yes, the will to stand your ground can be cultivated through martial arts training but, if a person is naturally inclined otherwise, this is always going to feature as part of their persona, no matter how much training they do (and let’s keep this in the context of a part-time evening study)

When we talk about buki waza inc. use of the tanto (and why we do it) I see this discussion on two different levels.

One.. We practice Bokken, Jo and Tanto waza because it falls within the tradition of the art we study. On this level, 'practicality' in a modern sense isn't a consideration because the methods of attack are stylised reflecting a past age. What we are doing is to ensure we maintain a 'tradition' of the art so we can pass them on to future generations. If that is all a student of mine ever desires, I have absolutely no problem with that. As long as they are being honest with themselves.

Two.. We take aspects of the traditional training and apply them in a 'modern' context. Through our training in Kihon we realise, what we do can be applicable in our society, god forbid we ever need it but, this is where I’ve seen confusion and conflict occur between 'traditional' and modern' concepts.

I've seen for my self students wrestle with themselves over the practicality of their technique when really all they needed to do is get their heads down and spend time on the mat - cultivating their 'spirit' and polishing technique.

Bringing this post directly back to the tanto. Live blade or not, we've already drawn the conclusion that it is "each to their own." Kudos to anyone who wishes to work regularly with a sharp blade. I for one feel it is a risk I'd rather not take, either for myself or within my dojo. In exactly the same way I will never let any of my students work Tachi-dori with Katana; and we have a few shinken in my dojo. Isn't that why we use a bokken ?

I also think 'we' ("we" extends very broadly) very often loose sight of the context in our training. Aiki isn't some uber-badass style. Yes, those who study Aikido can be very effective at what they do however, none of us live in an age where we need to learn bujutsu, we do so because we have decided too.

I fully accept that working with a live blade will add an element to one's training, as I said in an earlier post, I've done this myself many times in the past. However, like any "shock" one becomes desensitised to it after a period of time, this is where injuries have and do happen. Someone already said that one's uke really needs to know what their doing when they make their attack, its enough of a risk having a sharp instrument thrust or slashed in your direction (hoping your in the right place at the right time) but; to have an uke fail to deliver for whatever reason is a risk too great IMHO.

In Shodokan, if the use of a foam or rubber tanto serves the purpose it is intended that’s fine, in any other style either wood or blade made Tanto; you pays your money and takes your chances... And rightly so.

Dave

[Shinkei]

Reading through the last few post I would agree that Boken and Jo could cause serious injury if contact was made to your training partner. I can only comment on my own budo training that a free for all attacks with these weapons does not usually happen.

A good test of your tachi dori skills is face a good quality Iaidoka with boken of shinai or for Jo/Yari dori a good Jodoka. I can assure you that most Aikidoka do not match the speed and power of the above.

Sadly a lot of Aikido & MA teachers in the west only touch on these weapons, many just make it up as they go along I have seen some very poor boken work within MA over the years. I think the problem in the west is that we view a Shodan as a teacher of Budo. Many students settle at this level and teach without undergoing regular training themselves, the odd course or summer camp is not enough.

I know that a lot of Associations have an honory grade system above sandan,
although I have graded to Godan technically I am not against the honory system but I do believe that the person receiving the grade should have the same technical ability as a person who has mat graded.

I appolgise to any junior dan grades. but the above was me untill I decided to travel to study with a senior sensei.

[Dave Humm]

...A good test of your tachi dori skills is face a good quality Iaidoka with boken or shinai.This is absolutely true, I study Iai and even when I work with very good quality Aikidoists I can see vast differences in ability with the bokken unless their taught by a Sensei who has direct (and good understanding) experience in Aiki-ken which is sadly lacking in some schools. (Which is why I like working with Iwama doods) And have the pleasure of being the cousin of a BKA Kendo Rokkudan :)

Almost every time I've watched Aiki Tachi-dori I notice Uke 'leaning' into their cut. this is either because their pre-empting ukemi or, because they haven't been taught how to cut correctly. (and sometimes a bit of both)

In a sword cut, the kisaki (tip) travels very high and well past the intended point of contact, the 'cut' occurs from the blade travelling back to hara, otherwise all you'll do is chop at the target. If you lean forward whilst doing this you will be off balance and biased on your front leg; taking a sword from someone doing this is quite simple, one just has to off set from the line of the weapon and 'encourage' them to fall forward however; try taking the sword/bokken from someone who knows how to use it and that is an entirely different technique requiring some commitment to stay on the line of attack until the blade has travelled past its apex (thus its direction cannot be effectively altered by its user).

:)

Dave

[aikiwolfie]

so why say that it is Aikido when it really is reality based self-defense training that you are hinting at.No I'm not hinting at reality based self defence at all. The point I was trying to make is that martial arts training, (in this case Aikido), deals with a number of reflexes and emotional responses that we reguarly face in othe rareas of our lives. The introduction of a live blade is one more element of that training and if done properly is no more dangerouse than any other weapon and it is not as uncommon as some people have a tendancey to think it is.
Reading through the last few post I would agree that Boken and Jo could cause serious injury if contact was made to your training partner. I can only comment on my own budo training that a free for all attacks with these weapons does not usually happen.

A good test of your tachi dori skills is face a good quality Iaidoka with boken of shinai or for Jo/Yari dori a good Jodoka. I can assure you that most Aikidoka do not match the speed and power of the above.I wasn't acutally even thinking about free for all attacks with regards to the Jo and Bokken. I was thinking more along the lines of the variouse common techniques and exorcises done as part of the normal practice. Even when both parties know what's about to happen the potential for injuary is extreamely high should one of them get their timeing wrong.

And I totaly agree. A Jodoka or Iaidoka would put an Aikidoka to shame with regards to their respective weapons. I would expect nothing less. In fact I'd probably be dissapointed if I did manage to beat a Jodoka or Iaidoka.

[notquitedead]

Aikiwolfie,

I can understand training with live blades if the students were doing pre-scripted attacks without serious intent to harm or kill. That's not too dangerous, but it's also compliant. What I can't understand is that you insist that at your dojo you use live blades and go live. If it is "live" training, then the guy with the knife would be trying his hardest to kill his partner. It doesn't matter if he is doing it "properly".

Yes hitting someone full force with a bokken is dangerous. It's basically the same as a baseball bat. That may be fine if you are doing pre-scripted attacks and they are doing a specific defense. That's not live, though. That is compliant as well. When people try to go "live" using katana techniques, what do they do? Most put on kendo armor and use shinais. Why? It's safer so they don't have to be compliant or hold back.

How many dojos do you know of that give the students jo's and tell them to knock eachother out? Most I've seen practice forms and on some occasions two person pre-set drills...

[Dave Humm]

Aikiwolfie,

I can understand training with live blades if the students were doing pre-scripted attacks without serious intent to harm or kill. That's not too dangerous, but it's also compliant. What I can't understand is that you insist that at your dojo you use live blades and go live. If it is "live" training, then the guy with the knife would be trying his hardest to kill his partner. It doesn't matter if he is doing it "properly
Pankration, would you define for me what 'problem' you have with how aikidoists train (in this case with a tanto) I seem to have lost the purpose of the point you want to make and would appreciate clarification.

Dave

[kiaiki]

I think after loads of posts on this topic I agree with Dave - we can all train how we like as long as we accept the risks - of injury and, for some, litigation or lack of insurance cover.

Yes, Pakration90, we could all end up cut or dead - try a breakfall through a window, for instance! There are a lot of requests for info on this which deserve answers, but in the end if you want to find out how a dojo trains - don't keep repeating 'I don't understand how you can...' Just go there and find out!! In the case of Shudokan contact Nottingham dojo: www.shudokan.info . I know there are Canadian dojos and there may by now be some in the USA. You'll see plenty of live weapons training if you ask.

We don't aim to kill the people we train with, just to bring them as close to it as we can do safely. For someone who is training with a live blade for the first time of course you don't go 'all out'. But with a 5th Dan with 20 years of live tanto jiyuwaza....barring carelessness, the uke defines the limit and if he can take the techniques and ukemi he may attack with as much force as he wishes.

Can't say much more on this one..

[aikiwolfie]

If it is "live" training, ...
Pankration90 I too fail to see the point you are trying to make here. By "live training" I assume you mean tanto randori. I don't remember saying I have ever used a live tanto in tanto randori. All I have said and maintained is that I have used a live tanto in practice and that in my opinion, it adds a valuable element to training when properly incorporated into the class.

If you don't like Aikido practice that's just fine I have no problem with that. Feel free to go and practice any other martial art you wish. :)

[Rebel Wado]

Pankration90 I too fail to see the point you are trying to make here. By "live training" I assume you mean tanto randori. I don't remember saying I have ever used a live tanto in tanto randori. All I have said and maintained is that I have used a live tanto in practice and that in my opinion, it adds a valuable element to training when properly incorporated into the class.

If you don't like Aikido practice that's just fine I have no problem with that. Feel free to go and practice any other martial art you wish. :)

Aikiworfie,

I'm not sure but I believe that Pankrantion90 was really addressing kiaiki. As far as I know, Pankration90 does not have anything against Aikido, but he is well aware that people train in different ways and most of the Aikido that he is aware of consists of only what he calls compliant training. He has not experienced multi-attacker randori with high ranking black belts and such, but has seen high ranking Aikidoka fail to execute basic techniques on a beginner simply because the beginner did not comply and resisted the technique.

Now this is only my opinion as I live near the other side of the world from him.

To be objective, here are the issues:

1) The definition of "compliant" training is not the same across the board. A better way to put it should be that people use a sliding scale of compliance. Uke and tori agree on the amount of force, intensity and speed they are comfortable with before and during the exercise for safety. I would also call this levels of resistance and not compliance. This is where I think Pank was confused, as I was too in the wording of "live blade" training. I have always done live blade training at slower speeds. I don't see the benefits of going faster, even with more skilled fighters because of the risk of injury from a real knife (live blade). But it is clearer now that this is a choice and those involved choose to go the speed and intensity they feel comfortable with. Pank is absolutely correct that this is compliant training, but he is confused that it isn't black and white, that there is a large gray area of "semi-compliant" training where you are not totally compliant, just providing less resistance for safety reasons and for purposes of comfort levels and learning. I hope this makes it more clear as Pank is used to something like boxing or wrestling where you don't hold back in competition, and it honestly sounded like that was what kiaiki did in training, and if it was, how could you do that with lethal force and never get someone killed.


2) The next issue is that there is an agreement on how much you agree to let the other conduct a technique. On some techniques, for example, I might comply for safety because if I don't I might get a broken arm. On the other hand, I could counter the technique if I act fast enough. So there is an agreement that you will not counter techniques. This is a form of compliance also, as we used to put it, don't be too nasty when resisting techniques or the student will not learn it. This is great, but at some point to really test out things, you got to apply your counters so Uke can become Tori if Tori fails to apply a good technique. It appears with much training, including randori that the Uke are not using their best counters and instead are only attacking in a pre-determine manner. This is great training, but if it is the only level you take training to, you run the risk of creating false momentum.

What I mean by false momentum is that of an uncertainty factor, the fact that you cannot be part of a technique without altering that technique yourself. For example, if I atemi (palm strike) to the face and the Uke falls backwards or does a karate like rising block every time, then I feed off of this for my technique to work. As long as the Uke acts in these trained ways, my technique works well. However, when the Uke does something different like a boxing deflection block, my technique does not follow correctly. By always having the Uke react in a certain way because they are trained to do it that way, I have created false momentum for my techniques. In fact the whole martial art could be invalidated simply because this is not how things work in the real world yet years of training ingrain it this way.

I guess the only point is -- be aware of the "Uke attacked wrong" syndrome where you blame the Uke for attacking wrong. Yes the Uke needs to attack in certain ways for training purposes, but high ranking randori should not depend on the Uke attacking or acting in any particular way. You should be able to take a kickboxer and Aikidoka together in randori, given certain controls for safety and the randori should work just fine.

IMHO.

[notquitedead]

Pankration, would you define for me what 'problem' you have with how aikidoists train (in this case with a tanto) I seem to have lost the purpose of the point you want to make and would appreciate clarification.
I don't have a problem with how aikidoka train.

Aikiwolfie,

Pankration90 I too fail to see the point you are trying to make here. By "live training" I assume you mean tanto randori. I don't remember saying I have ever used a live tanto in tanto randori. All I have said and maintained is that I have used a live tanto in practice and that in my opinion, it adds a valuable element to training when properly incorporated into the class.
In that quote you say the training with live blades is different than randori.

The point I was making Pankration90 is that you only move onto live weapons practice when you are ready to do so. Which is the same point I've made with regard to live weapons throught the entire thread. Not that it should be compliant. The very fact that uke should be giving a commited attack is the very reason why both parties need to know what they are doing.
In that quote you say the training is non-compliant (so you're saying it's like randori).

If the training is not going all out (as in randori), then it is compliant... at least one person is holding back or complying in some way (that includes just giving certain attacks without actually trying to kill the other person). I'm not saying that's bad when training with live knives, I'm saying it's necessary. You kept claiming that your training was non-compliant, which implied that no one was holding back (so the guy with the knife was trying his hardest to kill the other guy). I just think if you are going to do completely non-compliant training then using a fake knife is a better option.

Pank is absolutely correct that this is compliant training, but he is confused that it isn't black and white,
I know it isn't "black or white". However, as you can see in the previous quote from aikiwolfie, he or she claims that the training is non-compliant. Not that it "isn't very compliant", but just non-compliant.

[OBCT]

Pankration90 I too fail to see the point you are trying to make here. By "live training" I assume you mean tanto randori.

I'm most likely wrong here, but a lot of the MMA crowd refer to 'live' training as more like sparring, whilst constantly moving as a real fight would be, not like randori with a live tanto. Straightblast gym have a clip on it, i think Ikken hisatsu posted it a while back. It's raises a few good points in MA, and builds on the JKD guru Bruce Lee's idea of 'aliveness'.
http://www.jkd-kbh.dk/sbg2.wmv
Damn, I miss aikido.

[aikiwolfie]

In that quote you say the training with live blades is different than randori.No that's not what I said. As some others have pointed out I think you are confusing a number of different phrases as meaning the same thing.

Pankration90 I too fail to see the point you are trying to make here. By "live training" I assume you mean tanto randori. I don't remember saying I have ever used a live tanto in tanto randori. All I have said and maintained is that I have used a live tanto in practice and that in my opinion, it adds a valuable element to training when properly incorporated into the class.
"Live Training": This would be something along the lines of randori which is free practice. Uke is pretty much free to attack any way uke pleases with the severity uke chooses. This may or may not include weapons.


"Live Tanto" or "Live Tanto Training": These terms refer only to the use of a sharp edge knife. Neither of these terms implies randori style training as the training could easily take the form of katas, forms or drills.


"Tanto Randori": This would refer to free practice with a tanto (knife). The tanto can be foam, rubber, wood or steel. However the term does not implie in anyway which material the tanto will be constructed from.

In that quote you say the training is non-compliant (so you're saying it's like randori).No I'm not saying it is like randori. As already stated randori is free practice. Restricting ukes actions with rules is not the same as compliance. If it were, then a pro-boxing match would be compliant as would virtually all martial arts training and competitions. Even the "no holds bared" competitions would be compliant as they do have at least a few rules. I think your definition of compliance is far too broad to be of use to anybody.

As I have stated before I view compliance as falling down for the sake of falling down. Uke falls down purely because uke thinks that is the appropriate time to fall down. This isn't a type of training I would participate in or encourage others to participate in.

If I am wrong about your definition of compliance please provide some clarification. If on the other hand I am correct, what then is the point in constructing an argument on the subject with such a broad definition as it serves no useful purpose?

[notquitedead]

No that's not what I said. As some others have pointed out I think you are confusing a number of different phrases as meaning the same thing.
No I'm not. Go back and read the quote. You said:
By "live training" I assume you mean tanto randori. I don't remember saying I have ever used a live tanto in tanto randori.
You specifically said you had never done randori with a live blade.

Which is the same point I've made with regard to live weapons throught the entire thread. Not that it should be compliant.
Here you say the training is not compliant in any way.

True "non-compliant" training is the same as randori. Each person is free to attack however they want. What you are describing is still compliant: the person with the knife is only giving a certain attack or a series of certain attacks. As Rebel Wado said, it isn't black and white. When I say a car is "fast", I'm not saying how fast it is. I'm just saying it's simply fast. Does it means it is the fastest car? No. Likewise, "compliant" doesn't mean it's the most compliant form of training.

What I've been saying all along is that doing completely non-compliant training with a live blade is dangerous. I don't see any point in most likely getting killed in training for the smaller chance that someone pulls a knife on me on the street and isn't just after my wallet.

No I'm not saying it is like randori. As already stated randori is free practice. Restricting ukes actions with rules is not the same as compliance. If it were, then a pro-boxing match would be compliant as would virtually all martial arts training and competitions. Even the "no holds bared" competitions would be compliant as they do have at least a few rules. I think your definition of compliance is far too broad to be of use to anybody.
Competing with rules isn't the same as training with a lot of restrictions (ie drills where the "attacker" may only use certain attacks etc). In competitions, you do whatever you can that is legal within that form of competition to win. In your knife training, is the person providing the knife attack seriously trying to kill the other person or just help the other person train? Is the guy with the knife trying to "win"?

[aikiwolfie]

Competing with rules isn't the same as training with a lot of restrictions (ie drills where the "attacker" may only use certain attacks etc). In competitions, you do whatever you can that is legal within that form of competition to win. In your knife training, is the person providing the knife attack seriously trying to kill the other person or just help the other person train? Is the guy with the knife trying to "win"?
So now the definition of what is compliant changes because of the situation :confused:

To be honest I'm starting to think you're just being bone headed for the sake of it. I still don't see the point you're pushing here with regards to what is and isn't compliance since we both clearly have different definitions of the term. And yours changes in relation to training and competition.

Compliance is the same regardless of the situation. If compliance is simply obaying the rules then all forms of training and competition are compliant since both parties should back off and hold back when required to by the rules. In which case, any talk or discussion of compliant and non-compliant training is totaly pointless.

You specifically said you had never done randori with a live blade.Totaly correct. I can't tell you how happy I am that you finaly get that part. Congratulations. :bang: And I said it because so far as I could make out you seemed to think I was claiming to have used a live tanto in randori. Where in fact I said in an earlier post and I quote (competition equates to randori);
Yes a live blade in competition would just be stupid. But I think using foam or rubber tantos is being too cauciouse. Both nage and uke should be practicing with a complete control and coordination as much as possible if not all the time. But then again I don't compete in any competition so it's not something I have to worry about.

[notquitedead]

So now the definition of what is compliant changes because of the situation
Look you're obviously having trouble understanding, so let's consult dictionary.com to help you out.

Compliant means:
Disposed or willing to comply; submissive.

When you are training with live blades, is the "attacker" simply providing a quick "attack" for his partner to defend, or his he actually trying to slit his/her partner's throat?

In competitions everyone is trying to win. The goal of person A and person B is the same- to win. In the training you are describing, person A's goal is to defend the "attack" while person B's goal is simply to provide an "attack". If person A does the defence wrong, if person B going to continue stabbing until person A is lying on the floor in a puddle of blood? No, person B will just stop.

This discussion isn't going anywhere so we might as well just stop it. When you said your training was non-compliant, I assumed you actually meant non-compliant, hence my replies.

[aikiwolfie]

It is non-compliant. Thankfully for me Dictionary.com isn't the world authority on martial arts. As I have already said, with a definition as wide as yours, confirmed by Dictionary.com, all training and competition is compliant. Both parties submit to the rules of the competition or training scenario. When discussing something such as martial arts as we have proven, it is a definition that is next to usless. :)

[notquitedead]

This is pointless. You can't understand the difference between being competitive and actually trying to win, and being compliant and just attacking once and then stopping for the benefit of your partner.

Thankfully for me Dictionary.com isn't the world authority on martial arts.
"Compliance" is a word, not a martial art. ;)

[Rebel Wado]

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Rebel Wado's definition of non-compliance in martial arts: Non-compliance is that act of resisting the opponent independent of the rules of engagement.

Rebel Wado's definition of resistance: Resistance is measured by intention (how far you are willing to go) and intensity (effort and execution). Resistance consists of both compliance AND non-compliance. You can be compliant to a point and then be non-compliant (resist), you can also be non-compliant and then at a point become compliant (e.g. tap out).


Please stop debating about the definition of compliance. All training consists of both compliant and non-compliant. Please refer to direct questions of resistance.

Simple questions:

1) Does randori typically consist of uke that resist tori enough as to have a high probability of countering or foiling tori's attempts at executing techniques?

2) On a scale from 1 to 10 with 10 being as nasty as possible given the rules of engagement, what rating are uke trying to resist the efforts of tori?

I would rate my live blade training at around a 2-3 on the scale.

I would rate randori usually around 6 or 7.

I would rate most competition around 8-9 on the scale. Not a 10 because most are not willing to just do anything to win.

Self-defense is not always a 10 because you could be intimidated or fearful and choose to resist less, so self-defense really cannot be rated like this.

On the other hand, a death match would probably be a 9-10 on the scale. At 10, the rules of engagement mean nothing, anything goes, more or less.

Maybe I am over simplifying this, but to be truthful, Pank is right that the level of resistance in randori is often less than the level of resistance in competition, and the level of resistance with a real knife in training is less than both. None of it is non-compliant, yet none of it is totally compliant either. Training consists of both non-compliant and compliant aspects -- the amount of compliance is not a good measure of the resistance, because someone can be compliant at first and then totally resist -- yet the amount of resistance can be measured based on the total effort.

[Dave Humm]

Speaking for myself... I think this debate has got stupid (with respect to all)

I'm the first to admit I don't advocate working with a live bladed knife however; from the perspective of a 'seasoned' aikidoist, If I were to train using a tanto, I'd want my uke to be committed IE He'd provide a quality attack but, be skilled enough to pull that attack if he/she realised I had screwed the pooch and got things wrong.

I'd also want my uke to be resistant enough to make me work for the technique yet, compliant enough that we don't be come locked in a petty battle which may ultimately result in an injury (considering the knife at play somewhere) thus no one learns anything other than we can all resist and prevent a technique when we know what's coming next.

The plain and simple fact is that when a knife is invloved someone is going to get cut. The severity of that injury however; depends entirely on skill and a little good fortune so, I don't see the need for weapons training to be uber-realistic, what I need form any training is consistancy and quality of attack, and those attacks to be varied from people who are willing to let others learn from the experience.

[Rebel Wado]

Speaking for myself... I think this debate has got stupid (with respect to all)

I don't even pretend to understand what the debate is :p

One person calls a way of training non-compliant and another person calls it compliant. It is very difficult to see two truths at the same time, if even possible. It is like looking at a sphere, from the inside it looks concave, but from the outside it looks convex.

There are two concepts that have independent truths. It becomes a matter of putting yourself in the other person's shoes, to see things from their perspective. From the inside of Aikido, the path is exceedingly vast, only limited by what is inside of you. On the inside you start in a hidden world (spiritual and mental) and work your way to a manifest world, at which time you will dwell in both worlds. The focus is on purifying what is inside to remove internal conflicts. The understanding of principles unlocks the vastness of the path.

From the outside of Aikido, the path is not as vast as you are limited by your physical abilities. The focus is on testing your physical and mental limits, always pushing for more. You dwell in the manifest world and through determination and testing of yourself, move towards the hidden world of the mind and spirit.

Both the truths of the manifest world and of the hidden world are valid, but both cannot be understood to be true at the same time.

I don't know all the answers, but it seems that to debate which truths (manifest or hidden worlds) are ultimately true is not something to dwell on. It seems more important to learn to live in both worlds.

[Shinkei]

Woooh Guys this is getting deep, maybe I have been thrown on my head a few times to many or I am just thick.(Please do not answer this via this forum)

As the original detate was about Tomiki Aikido I will put some points from this angle.

Although Tomiki Aikido does include Tanto Shiai with a clear set of rules I have never felt that my opponant has ever been complient the aim is not to get thrown, with this in mind I have always had to use combinations of techniques to achieve this. Correct timing and Mai-ai play an important part of Tanto Randori. In my dojo and that of my instructor we practise Tanto taisabaki to achieve this.

Competition rule are set so that the international Tomiki/Shodokan community follow the same guide lines.

Aikido competition took many years to reach what we see now. The original thought of Kenji Tomiki was to extend judo he originally called this exercise Judo Taiso in 1956 eh helped formulate the Kodokan Judo Goshin Jitsu Kata (Basicly Aikido)

At one point Tomiki used both the mai ai of judo and aikido in a free style format, this being if the sleeve and lapel hold broke the player would go into aikido distance and try to apply aikido techniques. This is how toshu randori came about.

Randori is only a part of the Tomiki system we have six koryu no kata(Acient techinques) simular to pre war Traditional Aikido most of these Koryu no kata were developed by Kenji Tomiki & Hideo Ohba. Ohba Sensei studied with both Tomiki & O Sensei, he also held various senior dan grades in Japanese weapons systems.

The present world technical director of Japan Aikido Association Shihan Nariyama 8th Dan also hold the rank of 6th Dan Aikikai Kobiyashi Dojo.

[taikwido]

In a nutshell, Tomiki was a great Judo student who was sent by his teacher to learn Aikido. He became one of the best Aikido students and incorporated his Judo experiences into Aikido and Randori (free fighting) was introduced. Randori is NOT meant to boost ones ego or prove that one person is 'better' than another, rather it is 'free play' designed to sharpen ones skills. Kata is nice to learn form but IMO you need to actually fight and see what works and what doesn't. I've had brown belts come to visit from other schools and myself and other low ranking Tomiki students have put them down consistently during Randori. I've only been studying Tomiki Aikido for 8mo (3hrs a week), I should not be able to put down a brown belt. Now I don't think that the style these people took is weak or wrong, I do however think that this example shows very well that free fighting is NEEDED in EVERY style of MA if you ever wish to try and actually use it for self defense. Aikido is a wonderful art and I take because the simple flowing beauty of it and the amazing bodily physics it uses never cease to astound me. But I believe in getting everything out of it that I can, not the least of which is another art for self defense. Aikido has some real gems and the foot work is second to none, but all this is useless if not put into practice. Untill another style incorporates Randori I will be a Tomiki student.

BTW, we use all types of tantos, rubber, wood, whatever. Why does the medium matter as long as it represents a knife? Sorry but anyone who wants to 'practice' with a razor sharp knife is asking for an accident, not to mention the dojo would probably be sued if there was one. We also free fight 1 vs 1 and multiple attackers.

I've had the idea of creating a tonto with an exposed edge where the chalk would be. You would use RED chalk ;-) That way you can visibly see where you've been "cut" ;-) Everything washes out.

[taikwido]

Do they collect perry knives and boning knives??? How do you cut your meat ???

The disntinction between a "weapon" and a "tool" is a VERY fine one. And it is largely just psychological. Just look here in the US where some states forbid carrying numchuks, but some of those states have concealed carry on handguns.

[OBCT]

can already get them. red or blue. not chalk i don't think, it's compressed paint. chalk is too brittle.