Does Aikido ALONE work?

[fishneck]

i have been doing aikido for nearly 2 years, prior to this i had no martial arts experience. Although i definately feel more confident in defencing myself, evading punches etc. I feel aikido is to choreographed to be a effective defense system by itself, and i train at a aikido school with a mindset towards effective!

No matter how good someone is in the dojo, in a street fight, NO-One punches in a way in which you have time to grab it in the manner in which you would catch yokomonuchi.

I Think Aikido is effective, But only if you learnt how to fight aswell, like how to box, otherwise the effective techniques and principles from aikido just cant be transferred to reality. Whilst it would be very nice to calmly guide an oppenent down to the floor and tell him off with a flick of the ear, the fact is this cant be done the majority of the time. You just have to hit them, aikido TELLS you how to land your atemi, but yhou dont practivce it. How can you be expected to punch when you've never really done it.

thats my opinion anyway, I was wondering whether any Aikido practitioners have used their skills in a real fight. And especially, if any Aikido practitioners with no other experience in any punching, kicking arts have used aikido concepts in a fight and won.


????

[Poop-Loops]

You've been taking it for 2 years. In any martial art, after 2 years, you're still learning the basics. Nobody is going to throw a punch at you if you haven't even mastered the basics.

PL

[aikiscotsman]

there is a hell of a lot to be said about this point for and against. I think you are more interested in being a fighter maybe than being or learning a very tradional and powerful martial art. It takes a hell of alot of hard repetative training to make things work especially in true budo's like Aikido. Modern training systems today like kickboxing, muay thai, sport karate,freestyle,jkd and even judo are mostly off shoots of traditional arts. These new systems do tend to leave out maybe some off the artistic elements and concentrate on the fighting, which if thats what your looking for is the best way. As for the approach to attacks in aikido it definatly depends on how much integrity and believe you put into them. All your attacks have to practiced with the same idea as your techniques ie, effective. The grabs should alwys be with a feeling of being able to restrain. The attacks are just as important as the technuique. Like kata(shoulder), morota dori, muna dori, etc they should all be as effective as the outcome. One last i would say is you say youve only been training 2 years, give it time mate and train as regular as you can.

[Virtuous]

The quality of training you put in the dojo is indicative to your ability to defend your self. If you dont practice striking how can you possibly expect to be able to do it in a real situation. It needs to be ingrained in you to the point it is instinctive, otherwise in a fight you will have to think about it and that will take enought time for you to get your guts stomped out. Dedicated atemis should be practice with every technique on every throw with at least some minimal contact but the attack should look and feel real.

As for the slow choreography of aikido, this is gradual training. You do it slow and fluidly so you can fine tune your technique. When you train fast it is easy to develope bad habbits and eventually those habbits will become instinctual. Doing techniques now should take alot less effort and thought then thay did a year or two ago when you started to train correct? The gross and fine movements are more than likely controlled by muscle memory. Once I am comfortable with a technique Ill occassionally have the uke attack as if he was actually fighting or sparring with me. Sometimes it is surprisingly easy to defend against sometimes it isnt. I then work more on those problem techniqes at a slower pace and try to tune it in, usually with some help from the sensei.

I've used aiki from time to time and have been successful in all of my incounters. I dont exactly adhear to the aboslute minimal force precepts nor do I believe in obliterating an attacker (unless the situation demands it). I use enough force to let them know who is in control and there is alot more pain in store for them if they dont cooperate. I will hurt them, and by this I mean it will hurt and it will hurt alot, maybe for a day or two, but I will not mame or cause any permanent damages unless it is absolutly necisary.

[nekogami13]

Aikiscotsman-Aikido is a new art,that is an offshoot of jujitsu.It was founded 40 or 50 years ago(something like that). It is not a traditional art-if by traditional you mean 100's of years old.


No art works in self defense situation, you work in a self defense situation. It is your understanding of the principles, when/how to apply a technique that works.

[Dave Humm]

Sorry, I can't be bothered debating this subject again, Deja vou of our discussions with Sonshu.

Please read :This thread (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3236)

And then this (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9889)
Because it's basically the same issue

[Dave Humm]

Aikiscotsman-Aikido is a new art,that is an offshoot of jujitsu.It was founded 40 or 50 years ago(something like that). It is not a traditional art-if by traditional you mean 100's of years old.

No art works in self defense situation, you work in a self defense situation. It is your understanding of the principles, when/how to apply a technique that works.

Sounds to me like you need to read a few history books on this subject

Point of note # 1 Aikido isn't an "offshoot" of jujitsu at all; it's origins are Daito Ryu Aikijutsu which is different to jujitsu in many ways. Aikido was an entirely new system developed from teachings of Daito Ryu, Kashima Shin Kenjutsu, Katori Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu, Yari jutsu (the actual ryu's name escapes me) and several other classical ryu influences. So it is far from an "off shoot"

Point of note #2 Aikido is EVERY bit a "Traditional" martial art. Recognised by the Japanese Government as a "Living National Cultural Heritage" in the late 1940's. It is traditional in that its origins and influence do date cleanly back to the feudal times of Japan.

[nekogami13]

My, my aren't we touchy. :rolleyes:

I stated aikido is not traditional if you mean it has been around for 100 or more years, it has not. It is an offshoot of other art, maybe not jujitsu,still an offshoot though.

Japanese govt recognizing, not recognizing anything means nothing to me.

[Dave Humm]

.. I must be bored
"No matter how good someone is in the dojo, in a street fight, NO-One punches in a way in which you have time to grab it in the manner in which you would catch yokomonuchi."

Ok, lets look at the above statement.

Firstly, it's an assumption based after a mere 2 years worth of experience that: Someone like myself for instance (17 years experience and a Yudansha) cannot 'deal' with a "street fight"

Secondly, Aikido doesn't (or shouldn't) teach you to "grab" anything, 'Parry' 'Redirect' 'Control' YES but not grab.

Thirdly, Yokomen Uchi isn't a punch it is a traditional means of attack. A training tool based upon the sword movement Nagashi Giri (Diagonal Cut) Yokomen Uchi is an excellent means of teaching a student to blend with the speed and intent of an attack, it isn't meant to be realistic (although it isn't hard to translate it to a 'windmill' type attack)

I don't agree at all that to make Aikido effective one might have to learn to 'fight' in something else IE "Boxing"

[Dave Humm]

My, my aren't we touchy. :rolleyes:

I stated aikido is not traditional if you mean it has been around for 100 or more years, it has not. It is an offshoot of other art, maybe not jujitsu,still an offshoot though.

Japanese govt recognizing, not recognizing anything means nothing to me.
Not touchy mate, just object to poorly based statements that attempt to tell others effectively incorrect information.

Your point regarding traditional or not is nothing more than semantics.

..And I don't understand what your point is; regarding your last statement ? The very fact that it is one of only a handful of classically based martial arts to be recognised by the Japanese Government as "Traditional" simply reinforces my point. Are you saying that unless a MA is hundreds of years old it isn't or can't be considered traditional ? Aikido isn’t an off shoot of anything.

[Dave Humm]

Appologies for my aggresive posts lol.. You guys may not be aware that in addition to Aikido and Iai, I am also a very active Technical Diver and I have today done two rather long and challenging dives both in the depth range of 40mtrs and 25mtrs.

I am tired and on night shift tonight.

Dave

[mike-IHF]

reply,

I do agree with dave to a certain extent. I am not a practitioner of Aikido, but my art Hapkiyusul is also directly from Aikijujutsu. Dave is write in a way that Aikido is infact considered by martial artist as a traditional art. However Ueishiba did change the philosophy behind his art. Aikijujutsu was completly based on military combat, basically designed to cripple, or kill no exceptions. Ueishiba, even though it's alot of the same techniques changed the philosophy that there is no need to permenantly injure, or kill someone unless it's absolutly necessary. This he wrote himself. So I agree it's a very effective art, but ofcourse at the higher levels. As far as I'm concerned the circular arts are probably the hardest to master. It literaly takes a lifetime. So by what I'm saying, of course a second year practitioner is not going to be fluid, and comfortable in his abilities. But if you make it your one and only journey to master Aikido, the reward to yourself, and your ability to defend yourself greatly will be reached. Good luck in your training. "namaste"

[Dave Humm]

reply,

...I agree it's a very effective art, but of course at the higher levels. As far as I'm concerned the circular arts are probably the hardest to master. It literaly takes a lifetime.

You've just summed up the entirety of so many debates including ones like this thread. I have met both on forums like these and in real life, those who want to learn a fast track self defense system, Aikido is neither fast track or in many cased self defense orientated.



I have respect for "fish neck" for starting the thread but, like many before him/her they lack the knowledge / experience of several dedicated years in the system to make objective opinions about its effectiveness.



If a student wants to question an application/principle/technique, GREAT! as a Yudansha I wouldn't be doing myself or the discipline justice if I expected people to simply follow blindly however, the fact remains, as you correctly point out, the philosophy behind the system of "do" - "way of" is entirely different to "Jutsu" - "Warring way" so, in many instances Aikido isn't taught from a practical perspective but, Aikido IS a martial discipline and provided the instructor understands the Martial aspects of the techniques he's teaching, it is very easy to train in both a 'continuation of a tradition' and a 'fairly practical' MA.



One has to be totally honest about one's ability and attitude towards Aikido. If someone thinks they need to supplement aikido with another system to boost their 'street' ability .. Ok with me.. I just cringe when I read "aikidio is ineffective" mentality. Often expressed by those with minimal experience.



There is a very comprehensive thread on the Bullshido fora on this very subject. Several Aikidoka have take the elements of the system they like and used other parts of grappling arts etc to make a 'new' system far more appropriate to today's society. Again fine by me but, it isn't strictly aikido anymore.



Dave

[aikiwolfie]

I so hope that warren guy reads this thread and a few of the others. Perhaps now he'll understand the reason for my original post to his shihonage (Shiho Nage for Dave) question.

After 2 years practice I was a 1st kyu (brown belt). I picked up a Jo and a Bokken for the first time, I felt like a total begginer when I was invited to join the Dan grade practice and I so hated working with total begginers because my Aikido didn't seem to work the way it should. Six months later though I figured out I was being too kind to begginers and started being strickter with them and applieing techniques more confidently. Now my Aikido seemed to be working better.

Just like everybody else has said, you will not learn Aikido over night. Aikido wasn't put together purely for self defence. However train reguarly and honestly and train to learn Aikido and you will find that the peices will begin to fall into place.

[juramentado]

here's my 2 cents on this..

Aikido CAN work, but you will need to train very hard and and for a very long time to make it a "fighting" system. Two years is short in Aikido terms. Maybe 5 years under a good teacher, one who appreciates atemi and application as well as technique and form. You will need to get as close to Aikikai Hombu dojo / Iwama dojo / Yoshinkan hombu dojo uchideshi skill level as possible to make aikido absolutely effective in any street situation.

Understand that aikido has changed a lot from its early years. Ueshiba was apparently a very tough fighter and his teaching and technique reflected that. IMHO, to get the most of Aikido's combat application, you will need to look back at those roots. The way aikido is taught nowadays, in most schools I've seen, may take longer to instill "street effective" application than the "old school" method. Read the book "Budo" and compare it to how you are doing aikido.

IMHO, aikido attacks are too stylized. They are originally meant to prevent the use to a katana by the nage or the uke. To get maximum benefit in your training, you need to see beyond the stylized attack and examine actual application. but first get enough experience in the system before starting to envision application.

Note: I did 10 years of aikikai aikido (often on a daily basis), under a Japanese sensei who had a background in karate, prior to doing FMA.

[Freeform]

Modern training systems today like kickboxing, muay thai, sport karate,freestyle,jkd and even judo are mostly off shoots of traditional arts.

Muay Thai is positively ancient when compared to Aikido, so I personally wouldn't call it a 'modern system'.

Also Judo's a few years older than Aikido, in name anyway.

Col

[warren]

yes aikiwolf i have read the thread and i see once more it is dave humm that gives out good practical advice and not yourself instead you give out pearls of wisdom like - i was gunna explain this one to but the fact is i'm so tired of the question - forgive my stupidity i thought asking questions to help you improve and further one's knowledge on various arts was what the forums were intended for silly me.

[ksw]

Muay Thai is positively ancient when compared to Aikido, so I personally wouldn't call it a 'modern system'.

Also Judo's a few years older than Aikido, in name anyway.

Col
The Muay Thai that we see on television IS quite new. It is the 'sport' version of traditional Muay Thai (which is quite old).

[Freeform]

The Muay Thai that we see on television IS quite new. It is the 'sport' version of traditional Muay Thai (which is quite old).

I don't watch TV ;)

[aikiMac]

No matter how good someone is in the dojo, in a street fight, NO-One punches in a way in which you have time to grab it in the manner in which you would catch yokomonuchi.

I Think Aikido is effective, But only if you learnt how to fight aswell, like how to box, otherwise the effective techniques and principles from aikido just cant be transferred to reality.
I used to feel this way. My mind has changed.

Aikido has parries. Maybe you haven't seen them yet. I didn't see them for quite awhile. Aikido's parries look an awful lot like silat and escrima parries (to my eye, anyway), and silat and escrima are combat arts. If those guys can defend against punches with their parries, then so can an aikido person. You just have to practice it.

I thought aikido wouldn't work against a flurry of punches, so I tried it on my good friend and instructor. He sprained my wrist really bad in a nikkyo. How'd he get a nikkyo out of my straight punches? I don't know! All I know is that he did some parries, and then, ouch, he had me. We never practiced getting nikkyo out of that position. I sincerely believe that if I fought through the pain to punch him, that he could have broken my wrist. I asked him later how he did it. He didn't know either. He said he just blended with my energy. He went with my attack. Hmm. I think I've heard that before.

The secret ingredient is individual skill. My friend is very good, so he can blend with attacker's energy and make aikido work. Maybe after 2 years you're not that good YET, emphasis on "yet." (I'm not as good as my friend yet either, but I'm still training.)

Other people in my dojo have successfully used aikido in real-life street attacks. One man used kotegaeshi against a would-be pickpocket. He thinks he broke the thief's wrist. A woman used sayu-undo against a would-be purse snatcher. Another man used an aikido entry to difuse a boxing-style attack. One punch (missed) and the fight was over. Who am I to tell these people to their face that nope, they're wrong, aikido did not work for them, eh?

[Sonshu]

"You've been taking it for 2 years. In any martial art, after 2 years, you're still learning the basics. Nobody is going to throw a punch at you if you haven't even mastered the basics."

2 years is more than enough to be able to defend yourself though - this is one of my points. Go to a MMA class and in 2 years you will be at a suitable standard to be able to defend yourself with some degree of confidence.

The same is for many other arts but Aikido does seem to take longer and for me 2 years and you are still not sure if you can use what you know unless you are presented with an obvious complaint grab might mean your school is not a good school of Aikido or perhaps the art is not for you. Or you want what its not designed for??????

Basic SD should be applicable at that level though from my view and someone after training with a year of myself should have at the very least a basic level of SD - but this is what I train for?

Views all?

[Sonshu]

My last post was not designed to upset anyone but to put my view across before all the flames get going?

[aikiMac]

- but this is what I train for?
Views all?
Therein is the root of our differences of opinion.

[Freeform]

Aikidoka, Sonshu.

When will you guys realise that your coming at the Martial Arts from two very different directions, gentlemen? ;)

Col

[aikiMac]

Ya, that's what I said an hour ago.

[Sonshu]

Aikido's roots came from combat and the very need for having practical SD. So in essence our wants are the same?

[Dave Humm]

Aikido's roots came from combat and the very need for having practical SD. So in essence our wants are the same?The need to make war and the need to 'self' defend yourself are entirely different concepts, so I don't agree that "our" wants are the same.

[Sonshu]

But I do want what I have spent years studying to work so unless you want something else then we do want the same?

[Dave Humm]

But I do want what I have spent years studying to work so unless you want something else then we do want the same?After a fair number of years in the British Armed Forces (the reference to making war) Non of my skills were or are based on self defence. The skills of the Japanese soldier (feudal times) was not of 'self defence' their role was to make/sustain war.

The concepts between war, and defending one's self are very different. Yes I agree techniques you use should work but for what ends ? Killing or defending. In law, if you 'intend' to kill someone whilst defending yourself (or in fact used excessive force to do so); that is to say it could be proved you intended to kill or could have used less force, you could be accused of murder or manslaughter.

Additionally, there is a huge difference between competitive or sport based technique, and practicality. The primary difference being 'rules'

As a matter of interest Sonshu, do you work in an industry that requires you to know quick and effective fighting skills ? I ask because I know several professional doormen who practice, not for self defence (because they arn't employed to defend themselves) but for security of property and of others.

The actuality of their skills arn't self defence based, they enter quite often from an aggresive position into usually an already conflictive situation. This isn't self defence.

[Sonshu]

"After a fair number of years in the British Armed Forces (the reference to making war) Non of my skills were or are based on self defence. The skills of the Japanese soldier (feudal times) was not of 'self defence' their role was to make/sustain war."

And also to defend yourself/land/family - hence my take on it. The attacker is the one making the war you are defending - unless you are an arse and kicking trouble off for no reason.



"The concepts between war, and defending one's self are very different. Yes I agree techniques you use should work but for what ends ?"

If you have not suffered bad injury or death than your training in SD paid off and worked in the realist world. However most fights are not to this level its just some guy who has seen you and thinks you are looking at him wrongly (usually male ego based) these are the most common attacks I have come across and again to make sure I come off well enough. This is the ends. Not to get knocked out and kicked in the head by him and his mates.


"Additionally, there is a huge difference between competitive or sport based technique, and practicality. The primary difference being 'rules'"

The two are closer than you think there is at least sparring against a fully resisiting person. This is why arts like Sombo & BJJ work so well along with MMA etc.

"As a matter of interest Sonshu, do you work in an industry that requires you to know quick and effective fighting skills ?"

No I work in recruitment but beacuse I don't need it 9-5 does not mean I wont need it or ever require it in future.

"The actuality of their skills arn't self defence based, they enter quite often from an aggresive position into usually an already conflictive situation. This isn't self defence."

It can be as most decent doormen don't want to fight they are doing a job so although the situation is conflicive they will want to reduce the situation or if it kicks off to defend them and other club patrons. Self defence is about defending others as well as yourself and is like this in the eyes of the law.

[aikiMac]

Is martial arts not about being able to defend yourselves? Aikido's roots came from combat and the very need for having practical SD. So in essence our wants are the same?
Ideally, martial arts is about being able to defend yourself in all situations – verbal and physical, ideas and fists. That is the ideal. This entails awareness of surroundings, avoidance, anger management, reading body language, mental acuity, philosophy (know what you believe and why) and dialogue skills, as well as punching/kicking/grappling/etc.

“Practical SD” means SD for situations that occur in my life on a regular basis. Well, what are they? I’ll tell you what they’re not. They’re not bar fights. Or alley fights. Or fisticuffs in a parking lot. I have not been jumped by a pack of gangbangers. I have not met a burglar in my house. Why, I wonder, should these situations be the focal point of my “practical self-defense” training??? For three reasons I think they shouldn’t be my focal point:

fear – I haven’t been attacked yet. Anywhere. Anywhere. Not yet. No burglars, no drunk punks, no angry ex-boyfriends, no drunk football or rugby players. Why then should I be afraid of being physically accosted today? I ask myself again, why should I be afraid of being physically accosted today? I ask myself a third time, and then I ask, shall I live my life in fear of that which hasn't happened yet? I hardly think that would be LIVING my life. I’d rather address my energies to other areas of my actual real life that I actually regularly experience. Mopping a bar room floor with my bloody nose just isn't something that I regularly experience.

age and ability – physical abilities decrease with age. I’m getting older, not younger. Meanwhile, why should I live my youth in fear and preparation of an unknown mystery attacker? Rather paranoid, I think, to train for a mystery. I’d rather enjoy the life that I actually know while I’m still young and able to enjoy it. That life does not involve fighting for my life against a knife-wielding crack-head assailant bent on killing me in a dirty, dark alley at 2 am. Or whatever the “reality based” training scenario is. Pick any scenario you like. I sincerely doubt that I fit into it.

greater purpose – to learn to fight and defeat another person is a joy, yes, but it is a joy short lived. As people come and people go and as I get older, younger bucks rise to the top of the class and I know with 100% certainty that one day one of them will uncrown me. My days are numbered. But, to learn to fight and defeat myself is a joy forever and ever, because it produces better a character that permeates my life (at least I think so) and affects everyone around me. The start is slow (I admit it’s slow for me) but truly, my opponent isn’t going anywhere now, is he?

For these reasons I prefer to look inward rather than outward and thus perfer aikiDO over aikiJITSU, jujitsu, muay thai, BJJ, boxing, krav maga, and all the 1,000 other “reality based martial arts.” But I have no criticism of these other martial arts. They fill a genuine need in other people’s lives, and I respect that. In the meanwhile, I take solice in experiencing the tremendous power of the senior aikido students at my school. If they can toss me around like a rag doll, then I have good reason to expect that 50 years from now when I'm finally attacked by knife-wielding crack head gangbangers in a dark parking lot with no one to help me, that I'll do okay. I'll do okay after decades of practice.

[DexterTCN]

..., no angry ex-boyfriends....
Hell man I didn't even know you were gay.

[aikiMac]

Hell man I didn't even know you were gay.
I'm frequently happy but I'm not homosexual. I was speaking of ex-boyfriends who are jealous when they see "their" woman with another man.

[TheMasterSword]

I'm breaking a promise to myself that I would never reply to these worthless threads but I'm bored at work :D

I just can't stand to see people write you need to practice punching or striking to be good in a fight....

First off.. if you are doing aikido to be a fighter, you're in the wrong art... but that DEF doesnt mean that aikidokas CAN'T defend themselves in a real fight..

Secondly just because your style decides to integrate lets say punches doesn't mean you would want to slug it out with lets say a boxer... its pretty simple logic... you having all your years in whatever art with like 6 months of punching "cross training practice" VS a boxer whos been punching for 6 years... lets face it you're not gonna last 3 secs in HIS fight... he will most likely be able to take any punch that you throw at him

it's jus like those bjj fights in pride,ufc, k-1, etc. who think that they can stand up and kickbox with a thai fighter... they're fighting THEIR fight...jus because you decide to do cross training will not make you this fighter who can out punch a boxer, out kick a muay thai fighter, out grapple a bjj. etc. etc. the only possible thing you can do is be aware of how the other styles fight and find counters or their weak points (there is no perfect technique) or BLEND with their attacks (but I don't think you mu mu mudanshaka will understand that last part)

and again speaking from an aikido, stand point why am even in this thought process (you evil non-aikidokas did this to me :woo: )..

[Dave Humm]

I'm breaking a promise to myself that I would never reply to these worthless threads but I'm bored at work :D
LOL..
Hey do you train at Yamada Sensei's dojo ? I was there for three weeks during the fall of 2000, and had the best time of my Aikido life there. If my memory serves me correctly the head deshi at the time was a chap named Louise (South American spelling I'm not sure of lol) I learned a lot during those short weeks.

Dave

[aikiwolfie]

aikiMac makes a very good point. Who are these mystery attackers we need to learn how to defend our selves against inside a year or two years or what ever? Say you take up an art next week, have never done any martial arts before, never realy been in a fight then get attacked an hour after the class. Should a more 'realistic practical style' kick in right away after one lesson? And if it doesn't was the lesson wasted? Is the style useless on it's own?

The answer is it doesn't matter if it takes a year, two years, three years or longer of training for any system of self defence to become effective. You could be attacked at any stage in your training. Then again you might never be in a fight at all. Ever. Was all that 'practical' based training wasted? You might also walk in front of a bus.

I personaly think that anybody who takes up any martial art regardless of other motives, should first and foremost be doing so because they enjoy being appart of that art. If you don't enjoy it, you'll never train to your true potential.

[Sonshu]

One of the reasons for me doing this was for all the years and a fair few TMA clubs I have visited who have told me that I am learning self defence. I am now in a position to see through the lies that they sell out to so many people. These have also come from Aikido clubs as well, yes there are people saying this is SD, perhaps some of you don't and this is honest and good but some do.

With some adaption the TMA stuff I have learnt has been useable. Also I am pleased to say what I know now works and works well because I have invested time to make things work. This is what SD is for me if it works then it works and now I think I am on the right track.

I see many people talking about 5-7 years to bea able to use it and some Aikido people have said 15 or even 20 years. Truth is no one knows for sure but its good as this is not what the art was meant for.

[aikiwolfie]

Aikido is about self defence. But it's not about fighting. That I think is the big defference many people fail to see. Because Aikido is a martial art people expect to be taught how to fight. When this doesn't happen, I think some people feel cheated or become frustraighted and lose sight of Aikidos potential.

This isn't a problem with Aikido it's self. As a martial art and self defence system it works. The problem I think is the western perception of what a martial art is and what self defence is.

I think that most people in the west tend to beleive that all martial arts are about breaking bones and hurting people. And I think that they have come to this conclusion because of the way martial arts are portrayed in the movies and on TV.

Sonshu in one of the other threads you said something like we need to draw a cleare line between what is self defence and what is a sport. I think that rather than divide the martial arts community into self defence and sports, we should be making more of an effort to simply correct peoples misconceptions as to what a martial art is.

Many martial arts include concepts and philosophies that have nothing to do with self defence or sports that are worth investigating and learning from. I think if we were to start pigeon-holeing things as this or that, there is a dangers these elements could be lost.

[Sonshu]

There is a clear difference between self defence and sport art with many styles labeled in this catagories long before I mentioned it.

What I would be more keen to do is get a distinction between the sport arts that say they are not sport arts and that they offer Self Defence.

Aikido sits for me more in the same realms as Taijitsu (an old art of mine) but as there is little pressure testing you might do it for 4 years and not need to use it and becasue you have never tested in when you do need it your let down. Sparring and pressure testing would help with this. This is the key to self defence as you are working against random resistance.

The ones amongst you who do Aikido for its SD capability would not be branded with the same stigma who do it for the art side and it does not work.

It is honest labeling rather than false advertising and serves to be truthful to your students and the public also weeds out charlaton's?

[aikiwolfie]

Ok I have always practiced Aikido as an art and not for self defence. Yet I have used Aikido successfully for self defence. Other people here have also stated that they have used Aikido for self defence and it worked. Yet you still insist that it doesn't work. This part of the discussion has become pointless.

So far as testing goes, that plays a large part in Aikido practice. That also includes testing under preasure.

The point has been made before that sparring in a dojo doesn't realy reflect what will happen in the street. To be honest I've never seen a fight in the street that looks anything like dojo sparring.

You might practice Aikido for 4 years or you might practice for 40 years and never be tested in the street. The same is true for all martial arts. A point I made two posts back. Any student can fall prey to a mugger before they are proficiant in a self defence capacity regardless of how long it takes to get to that level. I think it's unfair and unrealistic to single that out as a weakness of Aikido. To the best of my knowledge muggers don't wait until you know how to defend your self before they attack.

[Virtuous]

If you're so worried about SD, carry a pistol. You need only 2 days to teach any idiot how to shoot compitently. If you live some place where there are no right to carry laws you have 2 choices, carry one illegally or move some where that allows you to carry. If your prime goal in training is self preservation against all odds/scenerios than this is the only real option you have.

[aikiwolfie]

Virtuous I disagree. You can always hide away under a rock in the deepest darkest cave you can find in the deepest darkest jungle you can find. Then nobody can attack you.

[aikiwolfie]

Oh wait .... the jungle besties will get you.

[Sonshu]

Typical american answer - not having a dig but there is little gun trouble in the UK - slightly on the rise but gun stuff you really have to go looking for here and we are not allowed to shoot people in SD here. You still go to jail.

[Sonshu]

Some people say its not SD - Dave said I think that he did not think Aikido was SD.

"The point has been made before that sparring in a dojo doesn't realy reflect what will happen in the street. To be honest I've never seen a fight in the street that looks anything like dojo sparring."

..........This is a danger sign, see someone who knows how to fight and they will fight pretty close to how they do in sparing.

"So far as testing goes, that plays a large part in Aikido practice. That also includes testing under preasure."

..........Like what, can you please give me some examples of what pressure testing you do?

Thanks

[Virtuous]

Typical american answer

Well, when you are afforded certain liberties I guess it would be typical wouldnt it?

..........This is a danger sign, see someone who knows how to fight and they will fight pretty close to how they do in sparing.
Unless you're using full contact sparring I dont see how it could be close to a real fight.

..........Like what, can you please give me some examples of what pressure testing you do?
When I practice randori with multiple attackers it is pretty aggressive, how ever some other groups/clubs use randori differently. From time to time in our club we may find our selves subject to an unexpected attack when we are totally unprepaired.

Back to the original question can Aikdio work alone? Yes and No, If the conditions are right then yes, if not than probably no. Would you have more of an advatage from training in Aikido versus if you hadnt? You'd be a fool to say no. No martial art ryu/style is 100 percent effective by itself.

Back to aikido techniques, there are a few techniques that I wouldnt trust myself to use in a SD situation. That doesnt mean they arent effective, a fellow aikidoka may prefer those techniques and are really quite capable of using them. So guess who I am going to train with next time we study those techniques... If it were easy every one would be doing it.

Sonshu, it sounds like your beef is with those who sell aikido as a total self defense package, you have to realize that really isnt alot of people in the aikido community... All we are saying is that yes it can work for SD but it has weakneesses just like any other art.

Crap, I just realized I got this thread and another thread confused together... oh well. Too many of you aikido nay sayers :)

[Sonshu]

"Unless you're using full contact sparring I dont see how it could be close to a real fight."

This is what most people who spar do - points sparing is of less value though.



"When I practice randori with multiple attackers it is pretty aggressive"

In what way is it aggressive how does it work?

[Virtuous]

In what way is it aggressive how does it work?

Minimum of 3 attackers, usually use 5. The ukes are pretty resistive (how much depends on the tori's ability)and ukes are using full force, controlled attacks. If you dont get out of the way they will clobber you. It is also pretty rappid, once you are about done with one uke a new one comes attacks, some times sooner. This forces you to transfer from one technique into another and you are constantly moving. Also the ukes circle artound you pretty tightly so there isnt much reaction time to an attack. Uke's usually attack in sets of three strikes, most of the time they only get one or two off before they are thrown and they certainly do not wait for you to throw them. Also our atemis are pretty rough, not full contact but certainly enough to ring your bell. This all lasts 3 to five minutes. I do have to say I throughly love the mushin uphoria effect this can cause, really no feeling in the world quite like it.

This is of course for the more advanced students and it usually take 2 to 3 years to get to this point. A newer student would have alot less resistance, alot more time between attacks and yes we wait for them to throw us at times. This is only to get their comfort level up, it is really easy to panic and brain fart when you are surround by so many people, but as they get more familiar with techniques You can see drastic improvment in reaction times and technique lag. It does take a long time and alot of dedication to get there though.

[aikiwolfie]

Sonshu I live in a bad area and see fights on a daily basis sometimes. They are nothing like any of the points based sparring or full contact sparring I have seen anywhere. A real fight is far more aggressive and far less predicatable than a dojo sparring situation.

So far as testing goes we do the same randori type of practice virtuous described above. Not knowing which one of upto eight attackers who have surrounded you is going to attack puts anybody under presure. Our version is slightly different. Normally each attacker has a number which must be called before they can attack. The numbers are still called out in random order though. Our attackers will also continue to attack until they are thrown properly no matter how many attempts it requires. When kyu grades get the chance to do this they are normaly attacked by other kyu grades.

We also do alot of ki development exorcises and tests. You might think these have nothing to do with a realistic situation. These tests and exorcises are designed to develop good posture and cooardination. If you can be moved with the slightest touch, what chance do you have against someone attacking with intent? We use this to expose flaws in a students posture, movement and coordination that we can then work on improving.

[Sonshu]

This is good for you and I am pleased that its what you are doing but for me its very much like the randori that the Aikido schools I trained at were doing and I found it was also close to some of the Taijitsu stuff I was doing a number of years ago.

To me it is not the level of pressure testing I now look to get involved in and if you look at MMA type stuff as well as multiple attackers where buy if you hit the ground they will keep on attacking you so you had better get up. Its much more like a real fight will become.

This works for me as the pressure is really on and its quiet an eye opener for MMA type training if you have never done it give it a look.

It will show you how effective what you do is and might help to compliment your skills.

[ziseez]

in multi uke training the advantage of havign 1 vs 5 is because if there all trying to attack you they are all in each other's way,or they can get in each other peoples way.So its whoever has enough talent and there point of view on things if you can take on multipul attackers.Lately ive been training to see how aikido could work in a street fight and on my way to success,nowadays people wanna puch and withdraw the arm,well all you gotta do is get out of the way of attack and when they draw back just follow the arm and thread it through and stay out of the way of there other arm.Thats actually a aikido move so i guess o sensei had thought of things like thatwhen he created aikido,what got me is the speed,timing,and posture.Which im training now too work on attacks like that,if you wanna protect yourself on the street with aikido and aint like a high ranking and have law rank like green or blue,just think about how you could get out of the way of the attack and use it to your advantage.PLease correct me if im wrong.

[aikiwolfie]

I'm not realy into MMA. It all looks a bit to WWF to me in the sense that it seems to be heaviley commercialised and tournement orientated. That doesn't mean the martial arts involved are bull. I'm just not into fighting.

ziseez I think you should slow down and get a grip on reality. A real fight isn't as straightforward as you make it sound unless it's a playground pissy-fit. You seem to have picked your move before you're even in a fight. A very bad mistake.

[Sonshu]

"I'm not realy into MMA. It all looks a bit to WWF to me in the sense that it seems to be heaviley commercialised and tournement orientated. That doesn't mean the martial arts involved are bull. I'm just not into fighting."

Not wanting to get a laboured point like MMA involved but it might look like WWF to the un educated watcher however when the punches start landing and the ground and pound is underway its pretty clear its not staged. Yes its comercialised slightly but thats just UFC. If you look at the other events like Vale Tudo and Pride its clear its still pretty powerful and effective.

These moves are pretty technical and very efective but the main reason it looks a little messy in some fights is the person is 100% resiting and then its on!

There are rules as believe it or not they are not mindless thugs and these people make a living out of what they do so it gives them the chance to ensure they can continue there trade. Weight divisions are good and a problem as it creates a faulse sence of security but also acts as a barrier for the fighters. Most importantly there stuff works fully

[aikiwolfie]

Um...yeah I did make that point with one little sentence. "That doesn't mean the martial arts involved are bull."

[Sonshu]

if being WWF is a bit far off the mark and others reading the post might not know the difference or anything about MMA.

[ziseez]

like i said,it might be more aggressive but when you get mad or something you cant think fully clearly,no one can,its a prooven fact.I see you cant really understand the moves quite well because you dotn understand the effects,theres an aikido move for every attack i assume but you,yourself wants to use force or a strike to strike back and cant put the aikido moves into play.

[ziseez]

me and ym friend had this arguement last night,he said mike tyson could take o sensei,well o sensei is a trained martil artist which has studied moves for yours,different punches that can be thrown at you and has a counter for all of them,mike tyson on the other hand,a boxer,street fighting to explain it fully,i street fighter has no chance against a skill martial artist.A martial art is planned out and uses brains not just brute force,ever heard the saying mind over matter?

[Sonshu]

Rubbish!

Tyson could pan the crap out of most trained martial artists as he his too powerful, a full time fighter, no fears and physically built for fighting and he is in peak health.

I know some great martial artists but I doubt many could last very long against Tyson and the new K1 tournament will prove this.

Like I said new K1 champ inside a year! - I said it first ya'll!

:D

[ziseez]

well o sensei was in better shape then tyson and was very skilled,but anyway a great martial artist would already have the advantage of being peek of shape and also they have a art so that makes it harder for tyson,tyson u said is built for fighting,well the martial art masters are also.A martial artist of aikido wouldnt be touched by tyson,but in tyson's case he would be hit because he has been hit before.

[ziseez]

and also to add to that,tyson aitn at the peek of fittness,he aint mentally and spiritually fit.That makes a big difference in fighting,you think tyson could disarm the best swordsmen ever to live with bare hands or even a low ranked swordsman.See alot of people on this forum dont look beyond the box,its just like that saying,"the strong survive and the weak die".you gotta put in mind the mental and spiritual part of fighting,if yuor fighting by anger against someone equal to you in fightign statis you would loose because your descisions are blurred that makes a big difference in martial arts also.

[Tintin]

Tyson is clearly in better shape than most martial artists. Fighting is/was his trade, and if you remember he was kind of good at it. Only talking about the physical side of things though.
You've got to remember that boxing is a martial art as well, just not how many people think of one because its not from Asia.

As for Ueshiba V Tyson? Please lets not go there. :(

[aikiMac]

As for Ueshiba V Tyson? Please lets not go there.
Is this the new "Bruce Lee vs. Jet Li vs. Jackie Chan" question? (sigh) Ueshiba beat everyone in his day, whatever their background. He even beat and pinned a sumo wrestler. Let's leave it at that.

[aikiwolfie]

Hmm not sure it's actualy possible to fight a dead guy. So it's pretty pointless speculating about it. Tyson on the other hand does have a tendancey to bite peoples ears off. I guess boxing made him a little peckish. Hope this K1 thing doesn't have too many rules.