The Gracies

[Acekicken]

What do U think of them???

__________________________________________________ __

I think They are verry good
& have helped change Martial Arts forever.
:)

[Joseki]

They have done good things to promote Martial Arts and Ju Jitsu as a hole so I respect them for that but...its judo at the end of the day...sorry thats what i think

[YODA]

It WAS Judo - yes.

[Acekicken]

Judo Came from Ju Jutsu.
Jigro Kano was a Ju Jutsu man was he not.
Jikishin Ryuused the name Judo 200 years before
Kano.(Fact)

[YODA]

"The word is not the thing"

...J.Krishnamurti

[Jim]

I used to hate them in the late '80s when I first heard about them. They used to advertise in BB mag saying that they would go anywhere and fight anyone just to prove they were the best and listed that they had never been beaten.

I thought at the time that they were a bunch of thugs with no respect for ethics in martial arts until I saw interviews with them and found that they weren't the evil ba$tards they were portrayed to be. Quite good morals and set the standards for good sportsmanship both in and out of the ring.

It is interesting to note, however, that they do not consider a fight to be lost unless they 'run away' from a bout. This enables them to have an unbeaten winning streak. (Not that they are intentionally being untruthful, more that it's a Brazilian perspective).

[Acekicken]

Renzo Gracie said when he lost to Sakuraba
That Many people Make ecsuses when they loose
I'have only one he was better than me tonight.

[TkdWarrior]

i think wat gracies hav done is quite good...cuz they wer developin n evolving the style when ppl wer just too much into politics... n the arts being watered down...with them coming up...
it's become challenge for others styles to survive...
-TkdWarrior-

[Raizan]

Nobody can deny their skill, but at times, they appear to be rather unsportsmanlike. Renzo has a good attitude, but the same cannot be said about Royce, Ryan, Royler, Helio, and Rickson. I don't mean to piss anyone off if you're a Gracie fan, but this is just how I see it.

[TkdWarrior]

dont worry dude... just enjoy the show ;)
-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

Who are the gracies?????? :confused: :confused:

Anyone know of a site where I can enlighten myself?

|Cain|

[Acekicken]

Just Punc up the Name Gracie Jiu Jitsu
& U Will get a lot of info.

Or Rent Early UFC's 1,2,3,4,5,
Pride Fighting Championships
Cage Combat

There Are More But start with This

[TkdWarrior]

or good old sherdog.com
-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

Thanx guys, I am on my way

|Cain|

[YODA]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
Who are the gracies?????? :confused: :confused:

Anyone know of a site where I can enlighten myself?

|Cain|

Eh?

You been living in a cave for the last 10 years?

LOL!

[Cain]

Gimme a break, I know of no one but Bruce Lee.....as far as I know UFC news are never aired in India........I may be terribly wrong here.....

|Cain|

[Mr Heel Hook]

Wow, you don't know who the Gracies are? I am not making fun of you or anything...just wow. As for people giving them a bad rap and all that: Where do you get this from? Have you ever trained with any of them...or spoke to any of them? I am just curious where this comes from. I myself have train with two of the Gracie family and intend on training with Royler. I can tell you they are far from being arrogant or whatever might be implied. This isn't an attack or a rebuddle really. I am just curious.

[Andy Murray]

Hi Heel Hook,

Welcome to the forum.

Look forward to your input.

A few of the folks here have trained with the Gracies, though sadly not myself.

[Mr Heel Hook]

Thank you muchly for the welcome. I am very glad to be here!

[Kwan Jang]

-The Gracie family has a multi-generational training tradition. Most members of the family grow up in a training enviroment as part of the the family heritage. As a member of such a family w/ such a legacy and growing up in that enviroment, it would tend to groom some very good fighters. Having said that, my belief is that while as a group, the Gracies are good fighters(and individually some excellent); IMO their greatest mastery is in marketing. They got the sport of NHB started and set themselves(w/ Rorian as the promoter and Royce as the champ) as kings of this arena with an uneducated public looking on. I feel that the Gracies were of both benefit and did damage to the general publics perception of the martial arts. At the time they came along, as an instructor w/ dan rankings in JJ, hapkido, and judo, it was like pulling teeth to get students to train and practice in that area(grappling, joint locks,throws, ect.). Martial artists in general (the majority) seemed to be more interested in how to score points than in real self-defense. Since the Gracies and NHB, many martial artists have begun cross training and becoming more well rounded. This has been a tremendous boost to the arts. However, in trying to market themselves, their system, seminars and tapes, they have given the general public and even many martial artists a warped impression of what works and doesn't in a real fight. It gave much of the public an impression that other systems(especially the more striking oriented ones) were ineffective in a real fight. The early UFC's (promoted by Rorian Gracie) pitted a skilled professional like Royce against big, tough, athletes who were far less skilled than he. They also capitalized on making public challenges to established champions(many of whom long since retired) who had nothing to gain or to prove. This way they capitalized on the reputations of others by alleging that "they were scared to meet the challenge". This is what Helio did w/Joe Louis in the '40's and what his sons did w/ Mike Tyson(like he wants that paycut) and many MA champs and legends. The truth is that while Braz. JJ is a great sport form and has at times dominated other sport applications of other martial arts, this does not really translate into street fights or real combat. In their original combat roots, all martial arts were developed for combat w/ that intent. When they are taken into sport for competition, they MUST be made less dangerous, otherwise the competing athletes would be severely injured or killed. When it comes to either real combat or street self-defense, Braz. JJ is basically no different than Hapkido or other styles of JJ.(Before all the Gracie-fans jump all over me, this was stated in print by Rickson Gracie-according to most family members, the best fighter in the family). Like Olympic-style TKD, where the elimination of other counter-techniques, a high level of specialized techniques grows. These are not really geared towards the streets; let alone battle/combat conditions. IMO the greater target range(joints, neck, ect.) is what gives the grappling /groundfighting it's biggest edge. -To summarize, I feel that the Gracies influence has brought about more awareness to self-defense training, the importance of being a complete fighter(even though many critics charge that the Gracies themselves are not), and the biggest trend in cross-training since Bruce Lee. I now teach both the basics of Braz.JJ and Submission Grappling to my intermediate and advanced students as part of our cirriculum. On the down side, I feel that there has been both a blind, "follow the leader" by many martial artsits who want heroes and not looking at the pros and cons objectively. Also, the lack of skill and poor performance of some less-skilled fighters in the early(when much more of the public was watching)UFC's whose credentials were either exagerated or made up by the promoters(to "prove" the dominance of grappling and especially the Gracies) greatly diminished the general pubics' perception of the effectiveness of the martial arts as a whole.

[Andy Murray]

Kwan Jang,

I think that's a pretty incisive and honest view.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Kwan Jang
[B]They got the sport of NHB started and set themselves(w/ Rorian as the promoter and Royce as the champ) as kings of this arena with an uneducated public looking on.

Almost - NHB was very well establiched in Brazil & Japan and had benn for quite a few years - what Rorian did was bring it to America, and consequently - the rest of the world.

This way they capitalized on the reputations of others by alleging that "they were scared to meet the challenge". This is what Helio did w/Joe Louis in the '40's and what his sons did w/ Mike Tyson(like he wants that paycut) and many MA champs and legends.

Yeah - that was both clever & pretty transparent to anyone with half a brain!


The truth is that while Braz. JJ is a great sport form and has at times dominated other sport applications of other martial arts, this does not really translate into street fights or real combat.

Now that one I can't agree with. The sport form of BJJ is a sport (obviously) but the system was developed for fighting - and works very well for that. Certainly some technical developments have been made purely for sporting competition - but the basics of the style function very well as a method of fighting one on one in a non sporting environment.

When it comes to either real combat or street self-defense, Braz. JJ is basically no different than Hapkido or other styles of JJ.(Before all the Gracie-fans jump all over me, this was stated in print by Rickson Gracie-according to most family members, the best fighter in the family).

Hmmmm..... BJJ is very different to most other styels of JJ I've seen. The diffrencer, however, is in the training method rather than technical content.

[Cain]

Originally posted by Mr Heel Hook
Wow, you don't know who the Gracies are? I am not making fun of you or anything...just wow. As for people giving them a bad rap and all that: Where do you get this from? Have you ever trained with any of them...or spoke to any of them? I am just curious where this comes from. I myself have train with two of the Gracie family and intend on training with Royler. I can tell you they are far from being arrogant or whatever might be implied. This isn't an attack or a rebuddle really. I am just curious.

Sorry, just noticed this post now

Bad rap? I hope you are not reffering to me...

As for not knowing them, I never heard of the UFC, does'nt air in India for some reason, the first time I heard of them was when I came on good ol' MAP

|Cain|

[Kwan Jang]

-To Yoda, (one of these days, I'll have one of the kids show me how to work the margins on this laptop, it's different from my regular computer) What I am refering to as far as street effectiveness of Braz.JJ is the specialization of ground techniques and strategy in their use. While both stand up and ground grappling, as well as ground vs. ground and ground vs.stand up STRIKING are all musts to be a complete fighter IMO, the over-reliance of the ground tech. is as much of a weakness in a real fight as the over-reliance of elaborate kicking in Olympic-style TKD. For example, I get alot of young guys who've watched NHB on TV and find we teach both Braz. JJ and Submission grappling as part of our system, but are only interested in those aspects, with a mistaken view that it is superior to trapping, punching, and kicking. So why put forth effort in all that "worthless stuff". I proceed to take them out to the parking lot on the asfault and tell them to get in there guard. They quickly get the idea(usually). I don't contend that the basics of sport version of Braz.JJ and groudfighting are any less effective for street fighting than say muay thai or Olympic TKD, all CAN work well in self-defense. My statement comes from training sessions and discussions on groundfighting with BJ Penn(first American to win the world championships in Brazil), Pedro Saur(sorry if misspelled-a senior insrtuctor authorized by Helio, who is perhaps the only to specialize in the self-def. aspects rather than sport w/in the U.S.) and Frank Shamrock who while not a Braz. JJ practitioner, is arguably the best NHB fighter and groundfighter in the world today(sorry if I am biased, Frank has trained regularly at our main school for years now).

[officer_fujita]

Ground techniques are good, but in a situation wherein I have to face more than 2 assailants at once, I would definitely want to finish the fight in the shortest time possible while standing up. Fighting with ground techniques would most likely be at the bottom of my list.

[RAGE]

they kick ass!!!, and prove that best tihngs in the world comes from south america, we alredy got soccer, women and now fighting style!!!

[Adam]

My ground fighting skills are limited to elbowing people repeatedly while lying down, but wouldn't taking some mugger to the ground leave you open for a good kicking by his three mates?

[YODA]

Originally posted by Adam
My ground fighting skills are limited to elbowing people repeatedly while lying down, but wouldn't taking some mugger to the ground leave you open for a good kicking by his three mates?


Sure it would - That's why I don't plan an taking a fight to the ground - but "ground" can happen for many reasons not just by choice and if it does - I'm as comfortable fighting there as I am standing.

Also - come up against a half decent grappler and those elbows will be irrelevant on the ground. If anyone is elbowing it'll be HIM.

[Sonshu]

You have an interest in martial arts and also a computer and dont know who the gracies are. Man you have been in a cave!

:D

I think they are excellent as they have faught in MMA and beat many people much heavier and stronger than them.

SONSHU

[AsSaSiN]

Originally posted by YODA
Eh?

You been living in a cave for the last 10 years?

LOL!

Hey, everybody knows I have the best cave, don't make me come in there:woo: :D

[jejanim]

i think Gracie RULES! who would have though that a 6' tall 175 pounder would dominate the UFC (filled with monsters) for so long. goes to show that size doesnt come into the equation in a fight. it's all technique and the ability to think it through. and judo is not jitsu. i would go as far as to say jitsu is its bigger and better brother.

jeja

[Sub zero]

From what i've seen on gracie web sites etc, it does look more like ju do than ju jitsu.But that doesn't mean it's bad.They have proved it's effectiveness in the ring.(or so i've read)
I would love the chance to train with them.If there as good as some people say they are, then it would definitly be somrthing to remeber.:)
I always loked on judo as a sport (as kano intended), although still a martail art.Whereas Ju jitsu was a martial art with no sports element.This is just my personal view and i'm open to criticism.
I have heard of ju jitsu competitions though.I just can't figure out how one would create a valid points system.
Could ne body help me on that?

[SoKKlab]

To concur with some points made by Kwang and Yoda, maybe..

Their (The Gracies) style of Jiu-Jitsu is a really great skill and their groundfighting techiques are excellent.

The reason why I stopped doing it myself, was because, it is a Martial Sport and not Martial Art.

Although it was originally taught as Self-Protection in its earlier days, nowadays it's a sport with rules and lots of things you can't do to get out of techniques.

What used to irritate me when I was attending BJJ classes, was that I wasn't neccessarily good enough at BJJ to get out of some of the techniques legitimately, but, I could of got out of them illegimately, if it didn't have rules.

Particularly talking about the Triangle. And the Lying Arm Bar-which I could bridge out of most of the time, or grab the arm that was being barred. (I know these two take alot of strength, I did say i wasn't that got at it..)

Of course I could of persisted and become really good at Gracie Jiu Jitsu and then learnt to get out of the techniques legitimately, within the rules of the sport, but I didn't see the point.

Above all it wasn't realistic in some of its methods, although it is an excellent skill to add to your arsenal.

I also feel that it has given some folks a slightly altered perception of what they may need to do when having to defend themselves.

There now seems to be positive glee within some quarters to want to dive to the floor in a fight. (This point was alluded to by Kwang with his car park drill.)

To me, personally, as in my opinion and relative experience, this is positively suicidal. I want to learn to fight on the ground, if I am forced there by circumstance and not through a desire. (As pointed out by Yoda)...

Also I want to be able to get up as soon as possible and not 'Try for Position' with somebody who is trying to stove my head in.
EVEN if it just one person. I don't want to arse about, because on that day I may not be at my peak or concentrating...

Lastly, it costs a bloody fortune in London and as Kwang stated, it's a great Marketing franchise now.

[Nimrook]

I've liked the Gracies ever since I say Royce's fight with Kimo. A tall skinny guy versus an enourmously powerful man.
I remember thinking he fought like I do, using everything including Kimo's rather lengthy ponytail to his advantage.
But that is what Brazillian jiu-jitsu was remodeled from it's original japanese style for, battling bigger oponents.

On another note, all the way up here in Alaska, a new "Gracie Brazillian Jui-Jitsu studio has replaced the old Japanese Jui-jitsu one. Which I'm very excited about!!!!!!!! From what I hear, one of the Gracies, don't know which one, is coming up here as soon as the place has been remodled to their specifications. Whether or not they are going to be staying and teaching, or just giving the place a look I don't know.

[SoKKlab]

For self-protection
I'd do Old Japanese Ju Jitsu any day of the week.

For Sport and some nice Ground Grappling skills,
I'd do Gracie/ Brasilian JJ.

I can't see how you could replace one with the other, they are two seperate things.

[Kombat]

I'm not very informed about BJJ (I know very little about it but I like what I see) but just an observation I made when watching the early UFC's. I think that with all the knowledgable martial artist's on this forum I'd been interested on your views.

Wasn't a large part of the Gracie's success in the early UFC's also due in part to the fact that most fighters at the time had not seen that particular type of fighting? In other words, they had not seen it and, therefore, had not learned to counter it. It seems as the UFC's progressed that more fighters began to incorporate it into their fighting menu (and kudo's to BJJ for initiating that process...a more complete martial artist). I'm also thinking of Ken Shamrocks rematch with Royce when they drew...he may not have beaten him but he seemed to learn to counter it very effectively (and I believe I do remember Shamrock opening a nice cut or gash on Royce with a strike and I do remember it being a painfully boring fight). And wasn't that Royce's last foray into the UFC?

I agree with the point made in a previous post that a skewed view of BJJ arose as a result of the early UFC's...basically that all striking arts were ineffective and BJJ was an unbeatable MA. However, it seems that with the progression of fighters adopting a more well rounded approach that the pendulum has swung to somewhere in the middle, in that, BJJ no longer seems to be as effective or dominant in NHB competitions now. It, of course, still plays a integral role but most quality fighters seem to be able to counter on the ground and you see as many fights won now by striking as by submission. More of a balance now.

My point is that I think that the public may have gotten an premature impression of BJJ from the early UFC's in that fighters at that time were ill prepared for that style. The positive is that it obviously initiated the boom we now see in cross training.

As for BJJ's street effectiveness, I'm sure it couldn't hurt to have it in one's arsenal but I don't think I'd totally want to rely on it exclusively. I recall a post on another forum of Roy Harris using Aikido to put down a BJJ student to prove to them that they can be "handled" by other styles and not to be myopic when it comes to BJJ. Seems like sound advice.

Jeez, I sound like a proponent of crossing training. I am. I am.

Kombat.

[Nimrook]

well said Kombat

[roundhouseklik]

Originally posted by Kombat


I agree with the point made in a previous post that a skewed view of BJJ arose as a result of the early UFC's...basically that all striking arts were ineffective and BJJ was an unbeatable MA.

Kombat. [/B]

Well, you make a good point about the necessity of cross training, and all the superbly informed artists on these boards are always gabbing out cross training this, and cross training that.

The thing is, Royce wasn't strictly a BJJ man. Everyone is always using the same argument against him - that he did something they'd never, ever seen or imagined (:rolleyes: who's never seen or imagined high school wrestling? People have known about grappling long before the shrewd businessman Rorion Gracie brought us the UFC - yes, the Gracie family did in fact START the UFC...) I think this is false. Royce was the only fighter in the early UFC who had attempted to become a COMPLETE fighter. Granted, Royce is one of the worst strikers I';ve ever seen then or since, but he knew all the BASICS of striking. How to throw a hook. How to block a little. How to protect his face and kidneys, and other vital areas. The basics of standing footwork - my point is, Royce knew how to AVOID being beaten by a striker. No striker knew how to avoid being beaten by a grappler. I swear, if Kimo had known even the most elementary grappling - how to sprawl, how to escape the mount, how to stand up in base - he would have beaten scrawny Royce. Royce didn't publicize jiu-jitsu, he publicized cross training.

[Kombat]

my point is, Royce knew how to AVOID being beaten by a striker. No striker knew how to avoid being beaten by a grappler. I swear, if Kimo had known even the most elementary grappling - how to sprawl, how to escape the mount, how to stand up in base - he would have beaten scrawny Royce. Royce didn't publicize jiu-jitsu, he publicized cross training.

Yes, I agree as that is exactly my point...Royce may have understood the importance of crossing training, i.e. understanding striking in unison with grappling, but the martial art community at that time did not (you said it beautifully..no striker new how to avoid being beaten by a grappler). But it was this total dominance of BJJ in the early UFC, and the strikers lack of knowledge of this form, that led many to the belief that BJJ was an unbeatable MA.

Grappling was not new but it had NOT been seen against the striking arts in the FORM that it was used during the early UFC's and this is why no striker new how to avoid being beaten by it (and I'm sure there was also an under-estimation of grapplings effectiveness). Or maybe they had not seen a fighter that was cross-trained but, regardless, the MA community was ill prepared for it because they had never encountered it in that form. Had they encountered it prior to the early UFC's, it's reasonable to assume that the martial artists at that time would have been versed in it and Royce may have had more difficulty in his matches or even lost outright. It was this non-familiarity with a cross trained martial artist (or grappling used in this form) that perpetuated the view that BJJ was a totally unbeatable MA.

That's no longer the case as martial artists competing in this form of competition (and in the general community) are now more well rounded and pure grapplers no longer dominate as before. Had the MA community seen the effectiveness of being well rounded prior to the early UFC's then we would have seen a explosion of cross-training pre-UFC similiar to what we are witnessing now (post UFC-Royce era). It may have took Royce's UFC bouts to help initiate this but it, nevertheless, also led to the premature belief that the striking arts were ineffective and BJJ was unbeatable.

Kombat

[Sonshu]

Apparently Kimo can grapple and trained for the purpose of fighting Royce so I am told by a MMA respected guy.

Royce was not a complete fighter at all he just had the better stratergy, he stuck to his game plan and it took people into mostly new waters.

Many of them had never grappled or if they had it had been under a lot of rules - judo players etc.

Royce and his family had been doing challenge fights in Brazil for a long time before UFC hence he was an expert in what to do.

He struggles now hence pride grand prix 2000 championship and he has lost another match since then - dubious result though ref stoppage when he did not tap!

[thiaboxr2]

I bet if the Gracies did not introduce BJJ or set up the Gracie Challenge, BJJ may not have been this popular right now. There still might have been a few BJJ schools around, but not as many as there are now.
because of the BJJ craze, many more schools are incorperating BJJ or some form of grappling in their curriculum. Could this have been the start of the mixed martial arts we see today? Possible in some respects.
Grappling is here to stay despite any recent Gracie losses.

[Sonshu]

it is here to stay as they have done more than enough to keep it and others are carrying the mantle now with MMA as a sport alone.

[Skye]

Even with cross training there are few people that do well in MMA matches that specialise in striking. Some, but not many, especially considering how many people start off in striking systems.

[roundhouseklik]

Yes Syke...a ton of people SPECIALIZE in Stirking, but everyone knows basically what to do on the ground because they have dabbled in wrestling, BJJ, shootfighting, etc. I mean, Chuck Liddel comes to us with a strong background in Hawaiian Kempo, but after his base in that was set he got his competance on the ground.

[moromoro]

The gracies are great. but when it comes to the grappling game a very high level judo player will also have the upper hand.

[moromoro]

"my point is, Royce knew how to AVOID being beaten by a striker. "

yes he did it well in the early years......

TELL THAT TO SAKURABA RIGHT NOW.. hahahaha

[Nimrook]

Who here can name all the Gracies?

[YODA]

Originally posted by Nimrook
Who here can name all the Gracies?

Who here would want to?

A quick trip to www.bjj.org will give you all the info you need.

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by Nimrook
Who here can name all the Gracies?

Well...There's Gracie Brother One, Gracie Brother Two, Gracie Brother Three, Four, Five and Six, Auntie Gracie, Uncle Gracie, Amazing Gracie, Gracie Fields, Gracie Don't be a Hero, Gracious Gracie, Rolls-Royce Gracie, Mint Gracie, Franchise Gracie, Spencer Gracie, Gravy Gracie and Goodness Gracie Me....

And the Old Fella.

[Adam]

Spencer Gracie? Honestly, Sokklab! :D

[Tosh]

Originally posted by SoKKlab
Rolls-Royce Gracie.


BWAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH

Just sprayed coke over my monitor :D

[FISH]

Kwan put it well take it out on the asphalt and see how much you want to be on the ground.Any time you hit the asphalt or any ground for that matter its is possible to crack your friggin mellon open,break your neck,etc. all of which is noot good ummmk :P Not that many of their techniques aren't good but that TV crap where supposedly thats all they do is BS.

[Vincenzo]

i don't know that much about bjj my friend turned black belt in it like i think a yera and a half ago now he's at amc but anyhow he didn't have much of a stand up game before going to amc so i dunno he had some good throws though i imagine that's what he'd use on asphalt or he'd be kinda screwed.

[Hakko-Ryu]

i saw some pretty interesting clips on www.judoinfo.com
I never knew Helio Gracie lost a match to a man named Masahiko Kimura. And that Royce lost to Hidehiko Yoshida (champion judoka) in 2002. Wow, I guess like some of you have mentioned BJJ is pretty much in a sense Judo with slight incorporations! So then the question is, why haven't we seen more Judo practicioners in the NHB and MMA world?? curious

[gaijinboa]

Royce was ripped off by by Hidehiko Yoshida because the judge called it early. There is a clip I believe on Sherdog.com that shows a choke that is being blocked by the chin and some movement from royce to begin the escape when the judge waves it off. It may be a mark in the W column for the scripted MMA career of Yoshida, but watch the clip.

[Hakko-Ryu]

I have seen the clip. I believe Yoshida got ripped off of a clean victory...that choke would have been put on eventually regardless of whether or not Royce was trying to "Block" it. He was in the worse position/ losing position when the ref called it off.

[gaijinboa]

Also, Judo is a modification of Traditional japanese Jiu Jitsu as taught by Jingoro Kano and was intended to make the techniques "safer" to practice. One of Kano's students Mitsuo Maeda was initially a student of traditional Japanese Jiu Jitsu and then Judo. This is who introduced the initial concept and techniques to the Gracies who then studied, refined and eventually perfected the art to make it what we have today.

[gaijinboa]

Position does not mean submission by any means, and he had not choked him to any point at which the fighter's wellfare could be questioned, let alone a victory could be cleanly awarded. This is not to say that Yoshida might not have won but the unfortunate truth is that if this is a win for him it is by judicial error and not by legitamate victory. The win is questionable at best because the escape was beginning and Royce was not going unconcious. Regardless of the position held, the fight should not be called until there is reason to belive the fighter cannot defend himself effectively any longer. One does not win just because they have mount and are starting a choke.

[Hakko-Ryu]

you wouldn't say that a choke was inevitable from what it seemed? Yoshida had him pinned on a top mount with Royce's back to him. Yes i agree with you that it was called off too early, but nevertheless i believe that would have been the decision in the end.

[gaijinboa]

I partially agree. That is to say the choke could have been applied and locked in place, but the problem I have is that Royce can escape from that same position and even teaches how to do so. He has found himself in that same situation in literally hundreds of fights that he had coming up the ranks and not only escaped, but came back to win. At the same time Wallid ismael locked a clock choke in the Worlds' in 1998 and Royce went out cold in the middle of his escape. I understand that the ref might have been looking out for Gracie, but he was on the same side as the block was taking place and the escape was coming from so in the course of calling it there should have been a more in depth look at the tape afterwards and there was not. That is why i say it is not a clean win but I would like to see the Yoshida/Gracie fight happen again with an American Referee and unbiased judges to be certain one way or the other.

[ammai]

I would have to agree with gaijinboa that if the rear naked choke is applied, it can be escaped with turning your hips and digging the chin to cut off the choke. but most importantly you have to exhibit patience with this manuver. in this case royce was clearly attempting this and he still had his witts about him?

[gaijinboa]

Exactly. I have to beleive that the referee knew the choke was being applied, but that he had to see the escape attempt coming.

[gaijinboa]

It just seems to me like Yoshida has not excercised a very tight strategy in any of his fights at all. For example: watch the Yoshida-Frye fight and tell me it takes that long to apply a cross body armlock even to sombody struggling. Then, look at his fight versus Satake. That guillotine had so much space to get out it was criminal. Yoshida is WWE material all the way

[Hakko-Ryu]

LOL...well we'll see when and if they go at it again. Oh and i have a question about the Helio Gracie vs Masahiko Kimura fight from the old days. Who really won that match? was it a "fair" match?

[gaijinboa]

That is a match that I have questions about as well, but Kimura was the winner of that match and apparently there were some rather strange stipulations surrounding it. Mostly what I have seen about it is from archived news reports in Brazillian media and seems rather one sided, so I am not sure I have enough info to form any educated opinion of that match. Basically Helio's arm got broken and he continued for some time only to have the towel thrown in later.

As far as it being "fair" the rules were agreed to prior to the match by both parties and were the same as the rules that governed the prior two matches with Kimura's student Kato despite an over 80 lb. weight advantage to Kimura. If both parties agree, the fairness is not a dispute as far as I'm concerned

[stump]

Apparently Kimura stated that if he had not beaten Gracie within 3 minutes then gracie could be considered the victor.

Dunno if that's true or not, but what certainly seems to be true is that both men left the fight with a lot of mutual respect for the other

[gaijinboa]

I have heard that too, but I do know their match lasted much longer and Kimura locked a Kimura that broke Helio's arm. It is outlined some in the Gracie Way, that new book of the Gracies accomplishments by Kid Pelegro

[YODA]

We also know that Helio Gracie was invited to teach in Japan shortly after - respect!

[gaijinboa]

Karo Parisyan brings relevancy back to this particular thread with his efficient and beautiful victory this weekend over Dave Strasser in UFC competition. That was an excellent fight on his behalf and extremely technical, given that it was modified judo. I have to say that I for one was very impressed.

[Shou Tu]

Hello all, i have to agree with both sides on the gracies issue.

But what i dont understand is that no one talked about the superfight between Royce and Ken shamrock. Royce had beaten shamrock before and Shamrock knew royces weakness. once they went to the ground Shamrock just kept countering everything royce tried and ultimately stalemated him. until Ken popped him in the eye and left and nice knot. Royce couldnt beat Ken that night and wouldnt fight ken to my knowledge againafter that. Its not that people get cheated and from the outside looking in it is easy for us to point out what didnt happen or what did. I do know that in a street fight i dont care who you are if you go to the ground your getting kicked in the head by someones friend. ground fighting has no practical business in the club fight, street fight or multiple attacker fight. if you cant take them out standing up and not allowing them to get ahold of you then walk away and fight another day.

Salute,

Aaron

[gaijinboa]

Actually some of my students bounce at various clubs around here and have been involved in multiple assailant fights with some frequency. Though we train both striking and groundwork, they tend to gravitate towards the use of BJJ in these instances as well due to the use of neutralization. It depends on the situation, but especially in a multiple attacker situation you will probably end up on the ground. When one hits the ground and other opponents are around the same rules apply as far as keeping something or someone in the way of the other(s) and as quickly as possible neutralizing the greatest threat first. Granted if you take too long looking for the sub or trying to make the perfect looking BJJ vs. Joe Blow& friends match so you make it on the news that night, you will no doubt be pounded, but it is not class so restraint is not necessary.

[mild7]

Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is said to have no relevancy in a real fight, because going to the ground with multi-attackers is a bad thing.

BUT... when you do get forced to the ground, you'll be grateful to have BJJ skills to get back up. No other martial art is going to help you as much here.

btw, I don't know of too many BJJers that lack the common sense not to grapple around the floor in a multi-fight situation.

Also, the 'take them out' standing thing is most of the time just wishful thinking. Unless you're big or incredibly tough/strong it's not going to happen. I'd rather just disengage and run away.

[Shou Tu]

points well taken on both, alone BJJ is not something i would fall back on alone. it does compliment striking arts and in a street enviroment it would help. restraint def is not necessary, quick to the point and go home.

I also agree that is you cant knock em out with a few cobra strikes(not the only strikes but very effective and sneaky) then yes disengage, run away to fight another day.

Salute

[mild7]

yup, disengagement is the only thing on my mind in a real multi-attacker situation!!!

I always find it a little amusing when martial artists say, well, I would just to this in a multi-attacker fight, I would break a few wrists, smash a few knees and go for the throat etc.

People out there are SCARY. they are not like the guys in our training halls who have become familiar to us. Truth be told most people would be struggling like hell(and probably ****ting their pants at the same time) if they had to go up against ONE tough guy.

By tough guy I mean... the former boxer/streetfighter with only one real tooth left. Eyes always glazed, scars on the face, big and hairy. And if you look carefully you'll see a little 'twitching' in his face which gives you the only glimpse of his anger inside. They guy can and will explode at any time.

Now tell me, you'd wristlock this guy? LOL. Punch him in the throat, kick him in the groin? Man, that will only piss him off. THEN he's going to come and rip your head off.

reality is folks... one tough guy is going to give you all you handle. Now, imagine three or four of these tough guys. Yup, you guessed it.... RUN!!

[SoKKlab]

Yes,
I've been working on my Sprinting more than my grappling these days!

[mild7]

yup.

some friends of mine always make sure they're packin something when they leave the house.

personally, I make sure my shoelaces are on tight!

It would kind of suck if you were female and had to wear highheels though.... I think that's when you seriously have to consider carrying a gun.

[Bulldog]

Late jumping in here....

I would agree that 100% of us probably would rather have the fight stay off the ground, but, alas, I must side with my experiences...Most if all fights end up going to the ground. If you have more than one person trying to clean your clock...the last thing you want to do is go to the ground, or at least I wouldn't.

I would say this and I know that no one in 16 years has been able to change my opinion...

Whoever has the best hands, NOT LEGS, will most likely come out on top. After that, whoever is the best wrestler/grappler will win once it goes to the ground...Some people think that someone who wreslters or grapples doesn't know how to throw a punch...
I believe that if someone is looking to hurt you...they are going to punch, even if they aren't experienced in the fighting arts...it's gonna hurt if they connect...

I have heard so many Taekwondo people (and I'm one myself) say that, " I would just kick them...and that would be that"...but, I have also watched them try to prove their theory...
And most of the time...yes, a good side kick or front kick to the knee will end most problems...but, if you miss or they catch it...you better have plan #2 ready to go...

I don't really have an opinion on the Gracies I guess. I just know that they did prove a point in the first few UFC events...thus, my opinion about hands vs feet and so on...
But, after the world got to look at what they were doing...the kickers learned to punch, the punchers learned to kick and everyone is grappling now...So in essence, the Gracie family led everyone to a winning strategy.

The Gracies are not invincible. No one is...No style or art is...
Give them credit where credit is do...they are not hulk like imposing figures...and they take care of business.

And in closing, if I was in a fight and I had my choice for someone to fight with me. One of the Gracies or a traditional martial artist...I'd take a Gracie...10 times out of 10...

Unless Bruce Lee was standing around...then I'd take him...:)

[keinhaar]

kwan,

I now teach both the basics of Braz.JJ and Submission Grappling to my intermediate and advanced students as part of our cirriculum.

Where'd you learn your BJJ?