What is virtue for?

[shuyun3]

Is there any benefit to the martial artist to be virtous? Reading Machiavelli and Sun Tzu will make you think that treahery is the way to go, that the end justifies the means.

If this is true then why all those codes of honor? Why Bushido? Why chivalry? Why the 10 commandments? Why confucius? Why any thing?

In today's world martial artists get by by learning moves. Moves, katas, promotions etc. But internalizing a set of morals, what good is that? Why respect your opponent isn't apathy less burdensome? Ultimately does virtue contribute to anything in winning a fight (don't philosophise about how fights are avoided, its a premise...okay?!). Why do we perpetuate the thought that good always defeats evil is it necessarily true? (answer unequivocally please)

In short is there a point to being good as a martial artist? (no, no, no goodness is not a relative thing!)

Answer honestly please. Let your answers be a test of virtue in itself. Will you crack a joke to such a question?

I'll give my answer later in the thread.

[iElix]

If you cannot respect your opponent then how can you respect yourself? Buy resorting to his methods you fall to his level more importantly you fall from yours, to become the very thing you are fighting... :rolleyes:

[Guerilla Fists]

The problem here is you are comparing apples and oranges. Machiavelli and Sun Tzu wrote for leaders governing large bodies of people. The commandments, bushido, etc, reflect upon the individual. It is advantageous for a leader to be unscrupulous because unfortunately the world is a cruel place and it is in the best interest of the state to lead a powerful and domineering nation. Just the way it is.
Now on an individual level it serves to be virtuous because it encourages wisdom, good company, and a healthy life. A person who is negative or lacks virtue has much pain and suffering in their life. This leads to an unhappy and corrupt way of living. True virtuous people suffer too, but they handle it with grace and move on.
By eliminating desire we reduce the needs that we require to feel content. And by likewise becomeing virtuous we raise the bar to feel fulfillment. We can look internal to find peace rather than externally. This is just and eightfold path spin on the question.

[shuyun3]

The problem here is you are comparing apples and oranges. Machiavelli and Sun Tzu wrote for leaders governing large bodies of people. The commandments, bushido, etc, reflect upon the individual. It is advantageous for a leader to be unscrupulous because unfortunately the world is a cruel place and it is in the best interest of the state to lead a powerful and domineering nation. Just the way it is.

And so does it fit the eightfold path for leaders and govenments to ditch virtue because that's the way it is? Does the individual really differ from the nation? Should individuals pursue virtue yet make it national policy to throw it out the window for the sake of the "greater good"?

just keeping the all rolling.:Angel:

[Capt Ann]

I sincerely believe that virtue, good, right, truth, etc. are absolutes. The ends do NOT justify the means, for the individual or for the nation. I believe most people live by some code of virtue or honor, because human beings are "wired" with the understanding that we are accountable to a certain moral standard. This standard does not vary from culture to culture, place to place, or time to time. Our own consciences (mine, yours) recognize the differences between right and wrong, good and evil, without someone else telling us. We applaud virtue, and we detest deceit, not because we've "learned" to, and not because it is in our best interest to do so, but because we recognize it as the "right" thing.

Along the same vein (I am thinking as I write, so please bear with me), I think it's possible that most martial arts developed a standard code of virtue because of a sense of responsibility. The martial artists through history were in a position of leadership. They had the opportunity to influence their culture: either for growth and protection, or to destroy, kill, and conquer. With choice comes responsibility: how would they choose to use these opportunities?

We develop virtue when we realize that we have similar choices (use the talents, skills, time, money, energy we have for good and noble purposes or for selfish and harmful purposes).

[blessed_samurai]

What is virtuous will be defined differently by everyone. Just as each individual thinks of different things as honorable. Virtue goes past a political attitude and belief. Virtue does not always relate how you conduct yourself during times of war, it is spread to every facet of our everyday life and in every activity.

The definition of what is good and evil changes when you cross borders. A lot of times virtue is defined by the religious community and familial beliefs. Some thought the Muslims were virtous for coming over and dying for thier cause by their actions on September 11.

Many Christians thought it virtuous the way they conducted themselves during the Crusades.

Some tribes see the amount of piercings one has as virtuous.

The South saw fighting against change and the industrialization of America as virtuous.

Sun Tzu was writing on how to conduct yourself during war time. Some think it is virtuous to completely annhiliate your enemy and others thought to spare your enemies life was virtuous.

Often virtue changes with experience.

[Starboy]

shuyun3, you bring up an interesting point. In MA today (in America), the person's character is rarely judged (that I've seen). Especially for schools that focus on competitions and tournaments, students are pushed to focus more on their martial skill than on internal development and strength of character.

It is worth mentioning that goodness is relative. Not only because people have different definitions of goodness, but because people have a differing opinion as to whether or not goodness is relative. But let's say that for the sake of argument, goodness is all about respecting other people, being compassionate, and causing as little harm as possible. These values are not instilled in many MA schools that I've seen.


Should individuals pursue virtue yet make it national policy to throw it out the window for the sake of the "greater good"?


I have a different take on this. Good people (or at least people that respect other people) do not desire to have power over others. Bad people, on the other hand, would get a rush out of it. Therefore, IMO, a significant part of many government (especially governments in nations with a capitalist economy) are run by the power hungry and morally inept. There's an old quote in the US that goes something like, "The best person to be the president is someone who doesn't want to be president."

So as for throwing out virtue for the sake of a greater good, I believe many of these people had little virtue to begin with.

[Tatsumaru]

the problem is that MAs were never originally intended as a hobby. People in the modern world do not see the need for virtue in MAs because they are taught and concentrate only on the fighting aspect of it, and in this case there is little point to virtue. Morals will not win you the fight (at least physically speaking) and so people do not need them. Originally however, many MAs were a complete way of life and therefore virtue within them did have a very real point. Take the samurai and Bushido, it was not just a way to enhance their fighting, it was a code they lived by and so it contained virtue and morals for them to live by as well.

I personally do not think that virtue has a point in winning a street fight in todays society but i do believe we need virtue in some aspect of our lives, otherwise it will end up every man for himself with complete anarchy!
:woo:

[gojuman]

Virtues are simply some thing or things a person might try to live by. In Karate, because we place a lot of emphisis on tradition and upon the teachings of those who have come before us we look to virtues to aspire to in our training, but also in our lives. Training and life become indistiguishable after a while, I think.

My Ryu has a list of virtues that is honored by all those who train in our Dojo. I am happy to share them with you.



1 - We are proud to be in Karate

2 - We shall always practice and study
3 - We shall be quick to seize opportunity
4 - We shall always practice patience

5 - We shall keep the fighting spirit
6 - We shall block soft and hit hard
7 - We shall believe nothing is impossible
8 - We shall always discard the bad
9 - We shall always keep the good
10 - We shall be loyal to ourselves, karate and our country

USA GOJU FEDERATION

[David]

Martial training increases your power, this makes you either more useful or more dangerous in society. Most people prefer trusting-relationships to embroilment in deceit. These two things are enough for a balanced (pretend, ok) individual to see virtue as a ...virtue.

Rgds,
David

[shuyun3]

There's an old quote in the US that goes something like, "The best person to be the president is someone who doesn't want to be president."

I think Plato said that first about kings. but yup that is true.

thanks for the inputs keep them coming. I'll keep my end of the bargain and post my own too.

[Andrew Green]

In the military soldiers represent the country. Even now, this has not changed.

Military law holds soldiers to what in some ways is a higher set of standards civillians. Granted that doesn't mean soldiers are the most wll behaved people on the planet, but the rules are there, in theory.

Remember, these people represent the country, there conduct says something about the country.

Of course martial arts really got nothing to do with the military by what we mean by the term....

But respect must be there, same as on any team. Otherwise people get hurt. People that don't play by the team rules shouldn't be a part of the team.

Anyway, there is a connection. You treat your opponent poorly, they're going to do it back. Then the game is no longer fun.

In military same thing minus the fun. You torture my soldiers, I might do it to yours.

There are always rules to engagment.

[shuyun3]

In today's world martial artists get by by learning moves. Moves, katas, promotions etc. But internalizing a set of morals, what good is that? Why respect your opponent isn't apathy less burdensome? Ultimately does virtue contribute to anything in winning a fight (don't philosophise about how fights are avoided, its a premise...okay?!). Why do we perpetuate the thought that good always defeats evil is it necessarily true? (answer unequivocally please).
Another point i'd like us to discuss to is if virtue can have an effect on physical performance. because hard or soft, internal or external style weall endup moving in combat. does virtue benefit us in combat resloution? (provided the fight can NO LONGER be avoided).

[Shaolin Dragon]

One virtue that is important to how well we fight is humility. If we respect our opponents' skills and do not assume we are better, we are less likely to underestimate tham in a fight.

Virtues in general I think limit when we fight so that we do not needlessly put ourselves at risk.

[David-KGS]

Virtues are a product of society to encourage yourself and others to do better. If you feel apathetic to your opponent you're feeding the wrong emotions. Are you apathetic to all of the effort you've put into Martial Arts? I would hope not, you should likewise respect the effort your opponent has put into Martial Arts by respecting them. Should you lose after not respecting your opponent you may feel that you were better and still lost and then you will be blaming all of the wrong things and going about it the wrong way.

You should focus more on the kinder and loftier ideals. If you feel nothing for your opponent except for an obstacle in the tournament then your Spirit is weak. The emotions you feed will directly reflect the person that you are. If you are apathetic to things then you will become an apathetic person, then you will become bitter, then angry, then hateful. Substitute any number of other feelings, jealousy, envy, superiority, among others and be sure that they will progress in the direction that you want them to. Change is the only constant in our lives, nothing stays the same.

Yes, Virtue will effect you in combat. If your Spirit(I use this term loosely) is pure, strong and flexible then you will have an edge. Calmness is best found through purity and at the moment of combat you will want that calmness. Through strong virtues and morals coupled with competent skills you will be able to beat an opponent who is not of sound mind but is a greater technician, to a degree. It changes your thought process and your perception positively. Perception is key for a Martial Artist.

Virtues and Morals emphasize self-control, nobility and humility. The person you are out of combat is the person you are in combat. If you are light like a bird you will be light as a bird in combat. If you are troubled and careless you will be troubled and careless in combat. It's about focus.

[shuyun3]

David that's the best i've seen so far. don't be too good though, or you'll be taking the words outa my mouth.

Yes, Virtue will effect you in combat. If your Spirit(I use this term loosely) is pure, strong and flexible then you will have an edge. Calmness is best found through purity and at the moment of combat you will want that calmness. Through strong virtues and morals coupled with competent skills you will be able to beat an opponent who is not of sound mind but is a greater technician, to a degree. It changes your thought process and your perception positively. Perception is key for a Martial Artist.

Virtues and Morals emphasize self-control, nobility and humility. The person you are out of combat is the person you are in combat. If you are light like a bird you will be light as a bird in combat. If you are troubled and careless you will be troubled and careless in combat. It's about focus.

On a counterpoint can't a malicious person be focused? It's like sith vs. Jedi. What makes Jedi better?

[Tireces]

And so does it fit the eightfold path for leaders and govenments to ditch virtue because that's the way it is? Does the individual really differ from the nation? Should individuals pursue virtue yet make it national policy to throw it out the window for the sake of the "greater good"?

just keeping the all rolling.:Angel:

What he's saying is thats how leaders are successful. If a leader is virtuous or at least tries to be, he'll probably be "naturally selected" out of a leadership position, because he won't be ruthless enough to climb the ladder. It's one of the biggest problems with politics today, so few of the right people want to become leaders because they know it'll probably mean compromising a lot of their morals to keep up with the rest. As far as fighting goes, there really isn't much benefit to being either way. Though if one is prepared to take all the cheap shots they can land, while another is not, that'll be a problem. But for the most part, being virtuous or sleaze will mean nil if two people are of the same level of skill and experience. Being virtuous may help you to train better on your own, but conceiveably, someone who is not so virtuous can still get there, albeit by other means. However, having a good handle on yourself is an asset in many situations, especially when it comes to the "fear factor". There's a Mike Tyson thread over in the boxing section about "tyson in a street fight" or some such, where people go over ways to beat/get beaten by tyson in a street fight, and one of the things that has come up most prevalently with the subject is terror. Mike Tyson is a scary, scary man. If you can't keep your courage and drive going, a guy like that will run you right over. So yes, having some self control and such is important, but whether or not someone is virtuous doesn't immediately determine how well they can fight.

[Gryphon Hall]

don't be too good though, or you'll be taking the words outa my mouth.
Then isn't it about time that you posted your ideas on virtue, bro? I mean, we could go on and on and on, and the thread starter hasn't posted his treatise yet? C'mon, give us something to react to.

Off topic: By the way, I'm really sorry we didn't get to do the overnight thing anymore. I guess all of us were just too busy.

Anyway, see ya!

[shuyun3]

Then isn't it about time that you posted your ideas on virtue, bro? I mean, we could go on and on and on, and the thread starter hasn't posted his treatise yet? C'mon, give us something to react to.

Off topic: By the way, I'm really sorry we didn't get to do the overnight thing anymore. I guess all of us were just too busy.

Anyway, see ya!
well i'm really taking time to compose Bro. but i guess i'll lose spontineity that way so alright here goes.

Virtues, they're pretty abstract things. constructs of society some would assert, but I believe they're more than constructs.

Virtues can be personal or codified and in the end it is a way of life. The poorest interpretation of it would be to simply take it as a set of rules.

I started this thread because I am quite tired of the plurality values that abound in the site. I'm not against personal interpretions and opinions but I believe that somewhere along the way we need to take a stand and take the shots which are part and parcel of our stand. If you're Christian stand up for it and take the ridcule of being an "old fashioned prudish religion." If you're Aetheist you need to be ready to look like a person with no commitment nd who gave up on life. If you're a Muslim be ready to be associated with the likes of Bin Laden and so on. Be a man (idiomatically speaking "be a person" though PC has no ring to it.) take the good with the bad.

And so in this thread I would like to see people able to stand up for what they believe are imnportant virtues liberal, progressive or conservative. It takes all kinds.

So how do I endorse respect and tolerance to others is to allow everyone to speak up without the need to be apologetic. Christians can quote verses Muslims can call others infidels and so on.

Now what is virtue for?

One said it's for focus, I agree with that. If you lose sight of what's important to you, what you value you lose focus. Your conscience, your superego whatever (i'm out of synonyms) gets imbalanced and in that second that you lose that focus the enemy can take dvantage of it.

Now I'm not saying that we can win with virtues alone (that's why there are warriors and there are martyrs). All the goodness if your heart will not improve your form strength, form, flexibility and timing. Yet virtue and discipline helps in acheiving that.

You can be virtous and undisciplined and disciplined without virtue. Both are dangerous. The former is a dilusion the latter is a danger.

Your virtue is what the people around you observe. It's not obvious when you do it but blatant when you fail. Martial artists, masters or novices are a breed apart from the non practioners. You are looked upon. Your virtues though intangible gain you support and trust. How many superior warriors lose matches simply because they are demoralized. Virtue is there.

When it seems like the virtous are weaker and more gullible prudence (as a virtue) guards aginst carelessness. You may turn your back but keep your wits about. There is no need to be blindsided simply because you are trusting.

It's only in the cartoons that "It is so good to be so bad." In fact the best cartoon bad guys pretend to be good. (An echo from Machiavelli).

The virtous are never satisfied with themselves. Knowing that perfection cannot be reached they do not find it sensless to seek to achieve the impossible. Where as the non virtous would resign to the truth of the impossible the virtous would always seek to be better. (Better in all senses of the word). And in that incremental effort they would be heavens above others. Yet no saint or sage would ever admit to having achieved perfection or enlightenment.Virtue pushes when there is no need to push. Virtue prepares when there is no lack and where it is imprctical. Virtue looks both ways on a one way street.

What is virtue for?

[Rhineville]

What is virtue for?

To make sure your reputation as a martial artist isn't tarnished...

To be able to have the right to say "I beat you fairly"...

And to make sure that you're not the same as the rest of the scum out there...

[Nrv4evr]

martial arts is one part self defense, yes, but as well, it should be regarded as a lifestyle separated from human taint. virtue is the basis. if you learn martial arts as a mean of hurting people, you'd be better off punching air. being well-known and adored is a plus too. :p :Angel: