Tae Kwon Do any Good on the Street

[Jackie Li]

Is Tae Kwon Do really effective. I have taken Tae Kwon Do for a long time now, and i really thing waht they have tought be wasn't effective. It is impposible to use high section block, inner block, outer block on the streets.

yes i agree the punches and kicks do help, but really, thats it. Maybe it's just my school, but i really think Tae Kwon Do isn't that effective. Now I take Kung Fu and i find it is much better. What do you guys think of Tae Kwon Do?

[Intan86]

I too think so especially when it comes to hand combat. I mean you cannot rely everything just by using your legs. That's why I learn hand techniques in books and through friends. Eventhough Tkd don't have good hand techniques but Tkd surely have VERY GOOD leg techniques. I think it's up to us to balance it.

[kickcatcher]

It'll come as no surprise to many of you but I think that you are about right. If you take any particular aspect of typical TKD then it is easy to find other popular styles which outdo it in the 'reality' field. Even kicking, can an average TKDer hope to be as effective as the average Muay Thai fighter at kicking? I know who I'd rather have kicking at me!

But it is not so simple as all that. If the Kung fu you do is better, it probably has more to do with the instructor than the styles.

Personnally I think that a level of full/heavy contact striking experience is invaluable for SD. Very few TKD or Kung Fu clubs give you that.

[Jackie Li]

Ya, I really thing a lot of it has to do with the the insructor and the student. The leg techniques are good, but thats really about it.

[kickcatcher]

Ya, I really thing a lot of it has to do with the the insructor and the student. The leg techniques are good, but thats really about it.

To what extent are the leg techniques of TKD any good in a real fight? Or did I misread you?

[Jackie Li]

What i meant was the basics are the most effective. Side Kick, Front snap kick, etc.

[Tosh]

How many times do we need to go through these same discussions?

It's getting pretty boring.

"x doesn't work on the street" threads have been done to death, Thank you please.

Please do one of 2 things:

1) Find a new angle on it and post something that has not been talked about before.
2) Expect me to lock this thread if there is a hint of it descending into nonsense.

Thank you please, now drive through. :D

[kickcatcher]

I think that locking the thread would be unfair. This sort of discussion is healthy for TKD. Nothing posted seems to be style bashing to me.

Oddly enough, are you trying to prove the cognitive diswhatisit theory you talked about on the dellusionment thread? Hehe.

The new angle that I think is best though is "why doesn't TKD stop claiming to be effective at SD when so much of the Sd training seems noncredible.



PS. Sorry for the invented words. I Like making up words. You The grown-ups will know what I mean by them and the illiterated might think that I'm clever cos I use long words that aren't in the dictionary.

[Tosh]

I think that locking the thread would be unfair. This sort of discussion is healthy for TKD. Nothing posted seems to be style bashing to me.

Oddly enough, are you trying to prove the cognitive diswhatisit theory you talked about on the dellusionment thread? Hehe.

I fully agree with what is being said, my point is it's been said before which bores the hell out of me. :D Keep it sensible and full of good arguments then you'll get no problems from me ;)

The new angle that I think is best though is "why doesn't TKD stop claiming to be effective at SD when so much of the Sd training seems noncredible.

My personal opinion? Marketing. You are not going to get far saying "Not effective SD" in your adverts lol! The same question could be asked of any of the other arts, all are guilty about this type of misrepresentation.

However, I honestly believe that thanks to the rise of education within the masses about what effective really is (through advention of MMA, NHB, UFC) etc then people are not so easily led to this conclusion. Sure you get a few dummies but then there are people in the world following the cabbage soup diet for gawds sake.

Personally, when I advertise at Uni I put emphasis on the fitness, flexibility and competition angle. SD does not come into it, in this day and age I find it far better to point students in the right directions to find these answers. The most valued of my students constantly questioning techniques and look to expand themselves not just in TKD but in other areas also. Case and point are some of my students attending SFUK 8 this year, big kudos to thier willingness to be exposed to other ideas.

But then again isn't this the instructors first job in any MA? To expand the students horizons?

P.s. There are people out there trying to re-dress the balance. MAP Member Mark Davies (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/member.php?u=829) is one of them

[LeeGreg89]

I totally agree with all you guys as A Tkd ist myself some people who tkd often leave their hands down this has been a habit beacuse in tkd we focus more on kicks

Jeet kune Do for example is a very effective for a street fight dont u agree anybody

[stratiotes]

What does it matter how deadly your martial art is? I mean now days we have guns and everything else, if someone approaches you with a gun, best skill you can have is your running. Actually a fast runner could probably get out of more fights then the best *insert your favorite style here* practitioner. So maybe everyone interested in self defense should just learn how to evade, perry, how to get out of some locks and holds, then go take up sprinting and learn to haul ass.

As far as TKD not using good guard and hand techniques... the way we learn is to keep chin down near the collar bone, hide behind the lead shoulder, elbows down protecting the ribs, hands protecting the face (unless kicking range, then lead hand protecting the ribs and groin). I think some of you generalize too much, and look at too many WTF schools as well (no offense wtf, i'm sure there are good wtf schools also).

I just bought the book "Tao Of JKD by bruce lee" and it seems like we have been taught much of that already in our TKD class. Maybe i'm just lucky with a good school?

[TigerAnsTKDLove]

offended by this post here.. lol ok i'll lighten up. it does make me upset though. i think tkd is effective... why should one m/a be more effective then any other thats wrong. too me the blocks are effective i used a few and ya they are effective tkd though may not be hap ki do or jeet kune do but i do believe that tkd CAN and one day WILL save someones life. the kicks are awesome i love the roundhouse very effective kick in fact all the kicks are effective... i was in karate before and if i remember some of the blocks were the same as tkd. i love tkd and i think its great for anyone....... but this is my opinion all you guys have your own opinions aint here to change your minds just here cuz i love tkd its my only life.

[surgingshark]

Expect me to lock this thread if there is a hint of it descending into nonsense.

I see you're enjoying that lightning bolt that KickChick gave ya :) Good job, mate.

[nekogami13]

Any of the traditional blocks are pretty useless in real world(from karate,tkd,etc), if used as blocks.
I disagree with using any spinning technique in general,whether it is tkd,karate etc.
Other than that, It is the artist- not the art that makes something effective.

[Kwan Jang]

-You mean to tell me there really are people who actually try to use down defense (hahdan makki), upper defense (sundan makki),ect (spellings will vary with who is translating it into english) as blocks? These are responses or counter attacks combining striking with either joint locks or preesure point attacks. Of course they are impracitical as "blocks". They can be ab decent coordination exercises and one method of teaching students to load their hips and to move with balance too.
-Once again, do not judge the martial art of tae kwon do with the martial sport by the same name. If the art was not effective, it's doubtful that the Korean special forces (ROK soldiers) would make it mandatory training for their people. I have instructor's credentials in the Korean, Japanese, Chinese, American, Thai, and FMA's. My observation over decades of cross training truly is that the core roots of virtually all systems are the same and can be very effective if used with practical application. OTOH, many will emphasize what scores in competiton and ignore reality. You could make this argument not only against TKD, but against any school where the instructor is not teaching self defense in a realistic manner and chooses to focus on what he/she likes. (due to the sport push by the WTF, there is an overabundance of this in TKD or judo as examples).

[Poop-Loops]

average brain surgeon hope to be as effective as the average family doctor at brain surgery? I know who I'd rather have operating on me!


The proffesional, right? A TKDist SPECIALIZES at kicking. An MT guy might be better at all around fighting, but kicking is TKD turf.

Side note: If by average you mean guy who goes to a Mcdojo, then it's the guy and the school to blame, not the style. I'll see if I can upload my friend's fight when he went to a tournament in Kansas a while ago, everybody was extremely fast there. My friend almost broke his shin when he kicked a guy in the hip. It's all swollen now. :(

PL

[spacepimp]

Tae kwon do can quite easily be used as self defense if it is taught right. One of Tae Kwon Do's strengths is its extremely offensive nature (best defense is a good offense..blah, blah, blah). A good TKD artist has been trained for the one hit knockdowns, and unless the guy you fighting against has experience in taking hits or is some type of genetic abnormality then that person is likely to go down. We do have a decent array of hand strikes, reverse punch, ridge hand, knife hand, palm strike, and the finger strike (or as I like to call it the "Hey Moe") to mention a few. I have seen muay thai and they are way heavier on the feet (and knees) then TKD, but once you are in close there are very few punching or even elbowing things the do (just more kneeing which at the range you are then in, is not as effective.

We are all talking as if every street fight is a fight against a Mike Tyson like street fighter. The real case is most are going after you for a mugging, and they generally want in and out and back to their crack fix. Not to make the situation sound harmless, but the majority of street fight are people who know about fighting from watching rocky or a few small street fights they have been in themselves.

I think most martial artist train for a hit and run scenario, which is generally best in a self defense situation. You are generally going to get that brief surprise moment and then take off for more populated areas.

[kickcatcher]

The proffesional, right? A TKDist SPECIALIZES at kicking. An MT guy might be better at all around fighting, but kicking is TKD turf.

Side note: If by average you mean guy who goes to a Mcdojo, then it's the guy and the school to blame, not the style. I'll see if I can upload my friend's fight when he went to a tournament in Kansas a while ago, everybody was extremely fast there. My friend almost broke his shin when he kicked a guy in the hip. It's all swollen now. :(

PL

I'm quite unimpressed with the misquote trick.

But if you'd rather have a kicking match with an average Muay Thai practitioner than an average TKDer then that's your call. If TKD kicks were more practical than Muay Thai kicks then why don't Muay Thai fighters/K1 etc use them? Afterall, I cannot think of a widely sparred TKD kick which isn't legal in Muay Thai. I think that you might be demonstrating some self-dellusionment -(hehe. my new counter for everyone who dissagrees with me ;) )

[kickcatcher]

What's all that about one-hit knockdowns? Doesn't sound either credible or like TKD to me.

[marco]

Here we go again on this thread eh ? Effective TKD is down to the individual, as long as you modify the kicks to work in that environment then it's a good start.

Forget the blocks and the punches, they're just not natural enough and you'll revert to boxing style punches etc

In my work we have to use realistic forms of attack and defense all the time so we get to see what's useful and what isn't. JKD style has proved useful as it uses more natural and instinctive attacks.

Stratiotes, don't feel bad about singling WTF out for some criticism in this area, I've trained with a whole load of them and they're all the same....sport fighters who would get murdered in a real situation.

Bottom line, some TKD can be effective but you have to modify it to suit. Have to agree with Tosh on this one.

[tkderf]

It can be effective but it's more of a Combat sport than a SD sport. The goal of TKD is more about competition and scoring points (wtf). Although, that doesn't mean it cannot be used for SD - I've done TKD for 14 years, if i ever happen to kick someone right on the jaw, I don't think he would stand very long...

[Stewart]

I agree with Stratiotes. I think too much emphasis is put onto the WTF style of Taekwondo. As the WTF style has been developed for more of the sport angle, and thus use of your legs to score, it is easy to see why people feel that TKD is not an effective art on the street.

I study ITF style. There are over 3000 fundamental moves, both defensive and attack in TKD. (Last split I heard was that 1500 moves are for legs and around 2000 are for hands). Essentially this means, that if you learn techniques of TKD that allow you to block and counter an attack, then it becomes valuable on the street. Even the simplest of blocks that stops an attack is worthwhile.

The main purpose of Self Defence is to allow you to get into a position that you know longer feel threatened in. If you can use your techniques effectively to remove yourself from danger then its useful.

[Ad McG]

What does it matter how deadly your martial art is? I mean now days we have guns and everything else, if someone approaches you with a gun, best skill you can have is your running. Actually a fast runner could probably get out of more fights then the best *insert your favorite style here* practitioner. So maybe everyone interested in self defense should just learn how to evade, perry, how to get out of some locks and holds, then go take up sprinting and learn to haul ass.

As far as TKD not using good guard and hand techniques... the way we learn is to keep chin down near the collar bone, hide behind the lead shoulder, elbows down protecting the ribs, hands protecting the face (unless kicking range, then lead hand protecting the ribs and groin). I think some of you generalize too much, and look at too many WTF schools as well (no offense wtf, i'm sure there are good wtf schools also).

I just bought the book "Tao Of JKD by bruce lee" and it seems like we have been taught much of that already in our TKD class. Maybe i'm just lucky with a good school?


Why the hell aren't you practicing sprinting then if you think that's the best way to fight?!?

Personally, I think I would rather be good at fighting and knowing how to deal with the situation than just running fast. What if you're in a crowded pub and it all kicks off, you gonna run away then? What if someone attacks your family or friends when you're out with them, you gonna run away then? What if someone gets you in a corner, they have a knife and they're going to attack you no matter what, you gonna run then? If you say yes, then you suck at life.

BTW, the tao of JKD needs to be mixed with a couple of other books to begin to understand the real essence of the basis he was trying to put forward. I would recommend "jun fan gung fu - seeking the path of JKD" by Kevin R Seaman if you really want to get a real idea of the basics of jun fan.

Although my opinion on the argument about TKD and muay thai is rather uneducated from my own physical point of view ie. I haven't trained in either much, I would say that muay thai has more effective kicks from what I have seen. The widespread use of these kicks in many mma clubs and by cross-trainers must say something about the efficiency and power. I never chamber anything, so it isn't really for me. But whatever floats your boat.

[Thomas]

As a WTF stylist, I would like to point out a few items:

(1) Don't blame the style, blame the student/instructor/school. Sport oriented schools focus on sport aspects... not just in TKD but in other styles as well. If a student chooses to learn that, good. If a student chooses to learn practical self defence, thye need to find a school to teach it. There are some TKD schools that do.

(2) For the differences between ITF and WTF Taekwondo, see #1 above.

(3) Martial arts are individual based. You INDIVIDUALLY need to assess your needs and desires and match them with an instructor and school that meets them. The name of the style means little compared to the individual school.

(4) For me personally, TKD gives me a wide range of fast and powerful kicks and well as fast and efficient hand strikes. I personally like the striking style that is taught in my TKD school. We round that out with joint locks, defences, and breakfalls from Hapkido and cross train ground grappling and weapons at the TKD school. You can say "That's not TKD", but we do it in a TKD school because that's how we mesh our students' desires with our curriculum.

Sorry to be a bit snippy, but the "effectiveness of TKD" threads do get a bit tedious and I get tired of the WTF bashing and the TKD bashing. But, that's my personal opinion.

[Kwajman]

Though I've trained in TKD for years, I wouldn't say it is the end all of SD. Far from it. Most single martial arts aren't very good alone for SD. Now you start cross training into joint locks, grappling, etc...then you have a great combination of styles to put together and use in a street defense.

[Tosh]

Before anybody gets thier knickers in a twist about this I'd like to point out a few things.

Muay Thai boxing is far more efficient form a teaching a wide range of easily accessible, powerful (some more powerful than TKD) strikes than TKD. The sparring they regularly do gives it a good background for practitioners to understand body mechanics of blocking/covering up against full force techiques and striking at full force. It also promotes the use of attacking tools which are, statistically, less likely to be broken. It also prmotes a regular sparring environment with more ranges than TKD.

This is fact and is non-disputable.

TKD both ITF/WTF is more a sport art but that doesn't mean everywhere you go you get a carbon copy of schools. Different schools have different focuses, some sport , some not. Before anybody start hooting about sparring in TKD, I advise you to at least find out some information about World Championships level ITF sparring. I honestly think a lot of you would be shocked at the level of contact. It is very high and very brutal.

There are countries in the world that have been the best at TKD sparring for years and the most "dangerous" of this group have been the Polish, who have been heavily influenced by MMA and NHB events these days.

There needs to be a fundamental change in the rules of TKD sparring in order for it to start to come to terms with being taken more seriously and developing as a "more effective" (nothing is absolutely effective) Martial Art.

[Tosh]

I'm quite unimpressed with the misquote trick.


So am I to be honest! Poop Loops. If you've got something to say leave it out the quote box please, mis-quoting people is the Paparazzi's job not yours! :(

I have competed for my country at World and International level, there is no way in hell I would prefer a kick from a Muay Thai practitioner. :D

.....and I get kicked in the head alot!

You have to make the connection between a sparring kick in semi-contact TKD versus someone who practises full contact as their bread and butter like Muay Thai. Before WTF stylists complain they do full contact, the lack of legal techniques is the downfall here.

I say full contact ITF TKD please, but that is just my 2 haggis's worth!

[neryo_tkd]

How many times do we need to go through these same discussions?

It's getting pretty boring.

"x doesn't work on the street" threads have been done to death, Thank you please.

Please do one of 2 things:

1) Find a new angle on it and post something that has not been talked about before.
2) Expect me to lock this thread if there is a hint of it descending into nonsense.

Thank you please, now drive through. :D


couldn't agree more!!!!

[stratiotes]

"Why the hell aren't you practicing sprinting then if you think that's the best way to fight?!?"

I didn't say that is the best way to fight. I said it's the best self defense. The best self defense is to stay out of the fight. I realize that's not always possible, but could probably get just as much success rate as anthing else. I'd rather dodge a blow and run, then hang around and take my chances, when he may have friends nearby, who may have weapons i don't know about, etc.

"Personally, I think I would rather be good at fighting and knowing how to deal with the situation than just running fast. What if you're in a crowded pub and it all kicks off, you gonna run away then? What if someone attacks your family or friends when you're out with them, you gonna run away then? What if someone gets you in a corner, they have a knife and they're going to attack you no matter what, you gonna run then? If you say yes, then you suck at life."

This is a good point. My point wasn't that knowing how to fight is useless. My point was, everyone seems to be obsessed with how deadly their martial art is, when in a fight, you're probably going to be outnumbered. You won't know what weapons they may have. You don't know what their fighting skills are like.

"Although my opinion on the argument about TKD and muay thai is rather uneducated from my own physical point of view ie. I haven't trained in either much, I would say that muay thai has more effective kicks from what I have seen. The widespread use of these kicks in many mma clubs and by cross-trainers must say something about the efficiency and power. I never chamber anything, so it isn't really for me. But whatever floats your boat."

Why is muay thai's kicks more effective then TKD? Because they use their shins instead of feet? Some of us do use our shins.
Because they use their hips and don't chamber? We use our hips in everything and In our school we aren't taught to chamber in self defense or in sparring, only when strengthening our legs for the kicks, and warming up. High flashy kicks don't work in real life? Just because that's how we do in the dojo doesn't mean we don't know how to kick low. Also, flashy doesn't necessarily mean 'weak'.

Only way to really be able to fight in a real no rules fight against some good fighter, is to get used to pain and getting beat up. That's why muay thai fighters are so tough. Anyone who conditions their body enough to take pain and abuse will be just as good because they will be ready for it and won't be controlled by the pain.

If tkd schools fought without pads and gear, full contact, they'd get conditioned for real fights too. I think conditioning is the main factor, not so much the style you use.

[bibnweb]

All:

Forgive me for interupting this particular thread, but I have a quick thought I would like to share. Although I'm not a student of TKD (I practice Tang Soo Do), here are my thoughts/questions.

I've only been in Martial Arts for nine months and have used this time to educate myself with Martial arts as a whole as opposed to a particular doctrine... and I continue to study... During this time I've come to the conclusion that martial arts is not all punching & kicking; there's a lot more than that. Some of the books I've read are the following: Living the Martial Way, Zen in the Martial Arts, Tao of JKD and other Bruce Lee books. I would recommend "Living the Martial Way".. this book talks about cross training within arts to compensate for areas that are emphasized in your school as well what a takes to be a real "martial artist". It's a great book....

I love reading your board and educating myself on TKD and it's students... I just think there's so much more out there than focusing on punching and kicking... I practice Tang Soo Do during the week and take Jujitsu on the weekend... it compliments Tang Soo Do...

am I out of line here? Do I make any sense? thanks for allowing me to contribute...

I love Martial Arts and family it fosters...

[marco]

Listen to Tosh fellas, he makes a good point. ITF sparring in my day was done without pads and all the other bloody suits of armour that the WTF guys wear. The ITF was supposed to be semi-contact and the WTF full-contact.

I'm a qualified instructor in both and I can tell you that the ITF style is much tougher due to its lack of reliance on body armour, gumshields, groinguards,
headguards, chainmail suits etc.

I don't know what it's like now but the original ITF style we trained in Glasgow was as hard as nails. Competitions could indeed get rough but the technique was always there, unlike a lot of the sloppy flailing techniques being passed as WTF sport.

[Poop-Loops]

I'm quite unimpressed with the misquote trick.

But if you'd rather have a kicking match with an average Muay Thai practitioner than an average TKDer then that's your call. If TKD kicks were more practical than Muay Thai kicks then why don't Muay Thai fighters/K1 etc use them? Afterall, I cannot think of a widely sparred TKD kick which isn't legal in Muay Thai. I think that you might be demonstrating some self-dellusionment -(hehe. my new counter for everyone who dissagrees with me ;) )


Because you said kicking contest, not fighting all around. TKD is mostly about long range/kicking. In Muay Thai you can use elbows, knees, etc, so the emphasis on long range isn't as big.

PL

EDIT: And as to your self-delusionment counter: get your head out of your ass. They train differently, so they fight differently.

EDIT2: Omg you people... I made all the changes RED. Why? To see if his quote would still make sense if you substituted something for it. After all, TKD specializes in kicking, Muay Thai does close range stuff too.

[Tosh]

EDIT2: Omg you people... I made all the changes RED. Why? To see if his quote would still make sense if you substituted something for it. After all, TKD specializes in kicking, Muay Thai does close range stuff too.


Okay PL,

1) Keep the personal attacks to yourself. Consider this a yellow card, if you can't have an conversation without attacking someone you won't be having a conversation at all. Comprendhe?

2) If you want to make a point just say it, you didn't need to quote Kickcatcher so why do it? Stop being so lazy with your posts, please.

Your comment above would be true if TKD did nothing else except kicking, unfortunately it does hand techniques (a different range) also.

Now somebody better get this thread back on track quickly or it'll be the end of it.

This is not a discussion about Muay Thai Vs TKD!

[kickcatcher]

Sorry if this isn't much of a steer back on track Tosh.
But...
Poop-Loops,
When I said that I think that Muay Thai is better at kicking I meant it. It's only an opinion but it is easily put to the test: Go to a Muay Thai club and spar them. I reckon that you might learn something about effective kicking. If you think differently then cool, but I do have both sides of that picture....

Anyway, back on track:
TKD is not best suited to the street. for all the SD (of varying credibility depending on club) it is ultimately a kicking-orientated art, deliberately unbalanced and sparred in a manner which rarely (if ever) teaches the practioner the inherent limits of the techniques, nor their full potential. How can a TKDer speculate about the effectiveness of a technique, however 'theoretically' deadly, if they have onlty performed it in the abstract manner of Patterns, 1step and thin air?

I think that the same critiscm can be levelled at many arts but TKD is hardly innocent in the false sence of security it gives it's typical practitioner.

[Poop-Loops]

Okay PL,

1) Keep the personal attacks to yourself. Consider this a yellow card, if you can't have an conversation without attacking someone you won't be having a conversation at all. Comprendhe?

2) If you want to make a point just say it, you didn't need to quote Kickcatcher so why do it? Stop being so lazy with your posts, please.

Your comment above would be true if TKD did nothing else except kicking, unfortunately it does hand techniques (a different range) also.



I never attacked him. I questioned his opinion.

It actually takes longer to manipulate a quote. Plus, it has style if done right. Come on, I didn't make it say "Hey look i are teh gay fag!", I just substituted some words in, and made it obvious. I can't see why that's wrong. It's an analogy, but made through the person I'm directing it to.

You NEVER said "spar" you said "kick". Effective kicking? What, MT uses some magical kicks that are just beyond TKD's grasp? A round house is a round house. A TKDist does it more than an MT guy, so I can't see why the MT guy would kick harder or better.

TKD is guilty? Or do you mean the schools that teach it? Generalizing too much. But I can see where you're coming from. It's so much easier than assuming that that schools vary from one to the other.

PL

[Helm]

I can tell you that the ITF style is much tougher due to its lack of reliance on body armour, gumshields, groinguards,
headguards, chainmail suits etc

I'm sorry. What?

So when i throw a roundhouse im relying on my chest protector for that am i? Makes no difference to me what im wearing. I can still kick.
To that point, all the chest guard does is spread the impact area of the strike over a wider area, much like the very soft semi-contact boots in ITF.

I can agree that in competition some of the WTF kicks are sloppy, but those sloppy techniques are usually thrown for lack of being able to punch, simply to keep the opponent back. And from some of the ITF sparring i've seen, the hand techniques seem very sloppy indeed (although the handful of videos i've seen might not be a good example).

WTF and ITF sparring is very ideologically different, but its still basically kicking and punching (well, maybe not in some wtf comps :rolleyes: ).
A style that promotes wearing safety equipment so you can go all out is less realistic that a style that punishes combatants that use full-power techniques? Or vice-versa?

WTF protects the areas that you will get HIT, ITF protects the areas you hit WITH. Neither is full contact. Although those ITF boots do look very clumsy, what are they like to spar in?
To that end from WTF sparring my feet are hard as hell from kicking without instep protection, which is handy if you wanna give someone a sharp kick to a hard part of the face :p

But WTF sparring is more brutal than you realise. The head maybe protected, but the face isnt, and nor is your foot. A nose is easily "accidentially" broken, and in recent years a "face-shot" has become a particularly effective WTF technique, although seen as underhand by some, at the last competition i attended i saw someone get a very nasty broken nose. The same guy that gave that guy a broken nose also knocked my freind out in a previous fight.

Anyway, all this talk is head-doing and im feeling the oddest sense of deja-vu. Sorry if i offended anyone, but 'tis late :rolleyes:

[kickcatcher]

I never attacked him. I questioned his opinion.

It actually takes longer to manipulate a quote. Plus, it has style if done right. Come on, I didn't make it say "Hey look i are teh gay fag!", I just substituted some words in, and made it obvious. I can't see why that's wrong. It's an analogy, but made through the person I'm directing it to.

You NEVER said "spar" you said "kick". Effective kicking? What, MT uses some magical kicks that are just beyond TKD's grasp? A round house is a round house. A TKDist does it more than an MT guy, so I can't see why the MT guy would kick harder or better.

TKD is guilty? Or do you mean the schools that teach it? Generalizing too much. But I can see where you're coming from. It's so much easier than assuming that that schools vary from one to the other.

PL

The key difference is the way they train which results in a slightly different manner/mechanics of kicking. Muay Thai practitioners train to kick full contact and also to kick low. It's one thing to say that a TKDer could kick low but quite another to claim that mainstream TKD trains to kick low.
I would guess that you haven't ever sparred a profficient MT fighter. Try it and then come back and say that TKDers are more effective at kicking. It's all down to training IMO.

[marco]

Helm, no offense taken buddy, you make some valid points. It's just that I feel that the WTF boys have become sloppy simply because they've got so much protective kit on when they spar that it takes a lot more energy to throw many techniques than to just lay back and kick each other around the backsides. You almost never see them through any jumping kicks at all, but with three rounds of competition sparring you'd have to be superman to last the pace with those.

I've sparred WTF style and it's really difficult to move naturally in that stuff, you have to wear it a lot to get used to it and that just aint practical. Sure the headguards do let through a well aimed kick to the face but I think a lot of these land simply because a lot of WTF people spar with their hands at their sides.

Having said that, the ITF boots are really awkward to spar with, but only should be used in competition and when I was there, only the BB's used them.
They were never worn in class and you're right, the feet become conditioned to the hard work. The point is, with no protective kit on your sparring becomes much more realistic, your technique doesn't become sloppy, you have to have hands up and be aware how to use them and your timing and accuracy have to be spot-on to avoid serious injury. Destruction practice with the boards and such ensure that you are able to kick through the target when required, to compensate for the "lighter" sparring sessions.

I'm a qualified instructor in both ITF and WTF and mean no disrespect to any of the guys out there practicing in whichever MA. Just giving my two cents worth.

[Tosh]

Right, Kickcatcher and Poop-Loops if you disagree with each other about Muay Thai vs TKD Kicking save it for the PM's or a new thread on that topic, both of your bantering is going nowhere.

If it appears in this thread again I'll split it myslef. I don't want this thread hijacked by any more by your squabbling. If you want to argue about it do it elswhere it's between you 2 only.

Back to the point,


How can a TKDer speculate about the effectiveness of a technique, however 'theoretically' deadly, if they have onlty performed it in the abstract manner of Patterns, 1step and thin air?


By sparring full contact with pads and no pads. End of. I do it in my class and it's pretty much everyday occurance in 90% of the blackbelt classes.

BTW I do ITF ;)

BTW I've been smacked around by bare fists/feet a lot.

Don't just assume because TKD is rife with corruption and poor schooling, there are not people that train in the manner that is required. The problem here is that this type of sparring is not really seen until higher grades, the reason?

A) The rest of the syllabus takes away from purely advancing kicking skills to gain a level from control not contact is required first. It's more than just fighting skills.

B) For junior grades the emphasis is on avioding trouble and basic blocking/body conditioning. Too many people assume that high grade coloured belts = talented "sparrers" sure it happens but it's not the TKD syllabus that teaches that.

I didn't start learning how to "fight" until I got my BB.

[Intan86]

I agree with Helm that WTF is much more brutal than ITF. WTF fighters wears protective gears because of the power of the kicking can cause serious injuries. Even though you wears a protective gear such as the headgear; I assure you that the headgear are not 100% protection to your head.
I saw a competition between two black belts(wearing protective gears of course) and this one guy in the red corner throws a powerful jmping spinning hook kick to the opponent.
The opponent just slammed to the ground and pass out for a moment.
When he wakes up a few minutes later he was in shock.
He starts to mumurred about something and his body starts to get really cold and his face was turning real pale.
Then his body was uncontrallably shakes/trembling. His instructed realised he was getting into shock and tries to calm him down. They sent him to the hospital. One of my friend said (he was the one who sent him to the hospital) he was lucky that our instructor calm him down or it could have been otherwise to him.

Now you see how serious WTF style really is. That's why we wear protective gears Marco. Just imagine if they were no padding at all. Blood will be spilled and in serious cases maybe even death. We wear protective gears to minimise injuries.

[Poop-Loops]

Yeah, it kind of defeats the purpose of wearing gear if you don't go full contact. We do light sparring to practice technique, and then move onto regular sparring, that is, full contact.

PL

[Kwan Jang]

-If Tosh and the other mods will tolerate it, I may be able to inject some reason based on experience here. I teach both TKD and MT and have trained in both systems for over twenty years and have trained with world champions in each. I use muay thai to get our new students to learn how to fire their strikes with full power as IMO, it has a faster method than TKD for getting this across. Towards which has more powerful kicks, it honestly depends which kicks.
-In WTF competition when it started, it really was more of a power/KO-type sport. Most fighters were looking for the KO, and if they couldn't get that, they settled for winning on points. Back in the earlier days of the sport, the judges would really only score those points if your hand or foot strike slammed/moved their body or head("trembling shock"). As with many sports, TKD driffted and became more specialized and many competitors found that they could just slap the chest protector with a (usually weak, flicking) roundhouse kick and the noise would get the judges to score a point. Over time, this became what scored and won. The kicks of competitors in this sport became less effective and hand techniques rarely (if ever) scored anymore. The WTF people are now seeing that this has gone too far and are taking steps to change the rules and scoring system to "clean up the mess".
-In muay thai, it has always remained a powershot/KO sport. Therefore you have not seen the popular watering down of many of the techniques. Most people will use the roundhouse kick to demonstrate the power difference between the kicking of MT vs. TKD. How I explain this to my students is that though they are both called roundhouse kicks due to their angles of attack, they are really seperate kicks. For example, I will use the lead leg round striking with the instep (using the ankle bone) and the MT roud to the lowline using the shin. (BTW-IMO the use of toes and even the lighter bones of the foot is a useless/foolish practice used by both point fighters and some Olympic TKD fighters to try to get extra reach or make more noise w/ their slap. I think it foolish because you will break your own bones if you make hard contact with it.) The lead leg round is a probing strike to create openings, set distance, and keep the opponent from getting set(keeping them off balance). Basically the kicking equivalent of a jab. The muay thai shin kick is a power shot similar to a hook punch. Comparing the punches, obviously the hook does a lot more damage and has more power when it lands, but the jab is at least as valuable in a fight.
-It should be mentioned that some of TKD's kicks are mechanically stronger than the MT round. Both the side kick and the spinning back hit FAR harder if they are performed well. It's also been brought up that in MMA and K-1 events that the fighters tend to prefer the MT style kicks. It should be noted that in the lighter weight classes, espescially in K-1, you see a lot more of the TKD-type kicks. I was recently watching a tape of the welterweights and there were many who were effective and successful using primarily this type of kicking. Many heavyweights in boxing, kickboxing, NHB, and other combat sports make the mistake of relying more on power and their size, rather than becoming great technicians (before I get a backlash from a bunch of heavyweights, remember that I am a 250-255 lbs at about 7% bodyfat). Of course there have been heavyweights who were also good technicians. In boxing, that is what made Ali so great. It's a lot easier to get the MT style of kicking to a fairly high level of effectiveness and that is why you see more of it, not that MT's kicks are more effective overall.
-Let me put it this way, if you can become a level-eight fighter, on a scale of ten, by using six units of effort and you can win by becoming at least a level-seven fighter; many will not make the extra effort to become a nine or ten. Espescially if it would require twelve to fourteen more units of work to make this happen. IMO developing into say, a Bill Wallace-level of kicker, would take, on scale, that much more work than becoming "good enough" at the simpler, faster to develop, muay thai-style kicks. This is why I emphasize MT kicks more with my beginners in the early phases of training. OTOH, when the black belts spar under either K-1 or MT rules (welcome to most of our Saturday mornng black belt sparring class), the ones who developed the greater range of kicking skills overall dominate the ones who focus more on just the MT kicks. Of course, it should be noted that they have all been doing both for a long time, so they are not taken by surprise by either type of kicking.

[davjohns]

I think this last response was one I can well agree with. I teach TKD. There are parts of it I don't care for. The kicks are generally, however, more powerful than some that can be delivered faster.

Early in the thread I noticed someone disparaged all spin kicks on the street. I can assure you that my spin side kick has a fair chance of ending a dispute if you don't watch for it.

I do fault TKD for teaching little that can be used in the grappling range. That is why I also teach HKD. I find they compliment each other well.

And while I am at it, is Tosh really a moderator? I've never seen a mod threaten to terminate a thread if he/she got bored with it. Maybe he was just playing around.

Very respectfully,
dwj

[Kwajman]

Kwan Jang, as one of the new mods, why did you think we'd edit your post? There was nothing wrong with it at all. Just because a post is critical of something we do doesn't mean we're going to ban it. Thats one reason we're here is to read opposing viewpoints, or viewpoints with a different angle. Keep posting!!

[Matt_Bernius]

Kwan Jang,

As always a brilliant post. Thank you for adding you view!

- Matt

[blessed_samurai]

C'mon guys, how old is this question...is TKD street effective? Yes, it is and no, at times it isn't. It depends on who is teaching and how they teach and how you use it. I look at TKD in two catagories.... the first one being sport TKD and the second being combat TKD. The sport TKD seems to like to emphasize sparring, one steps, and kata. The latter tends to emphasize no set one steps (your instructor shows you the one step, but it's not done for static and the student changes it a bit to suit them), full contact sparring, balance breaking, not a huge emphasis on kata, and lots and lots of good ol breaking, maiming, and hyper extending activities. It's basically what happens when you strip it down to what is effective more on the street than in a ring with a few judges.

Okay, first of all about the blocks. The arm only goes one direction...in a circle...whether you do an outside or an inside or down block, it does not matter, the in block circles down and becomes a down block, circles the opposite direction and becomes an outside block and so forth...it's all that good ol circular movement.

As a TKD practioneer, you have to know the difference between what works in sparring and what works on the street, if you think the two are the same, then you'll be in for a shock on the street.

I can only relate to you my experience with TKD. Punches were just as valuable as kicking (it is the way of the hand and foot...not just the foot). So, in sparring we could "head hunt". Now, we have all these handy kicks right? Well, just take the round house and make it low to the knees, snap kick to the groin instead of the chest.

Every ma has to have their own identity and philosophy away from the instructors and the other students, you should not become just a walking repitition of your instructor. Instead of doing the hard blocks, do what I call "shoeing away at flies" When you shoe a fly away, you are basically slapping and swatting and your arm is loose...apply this philosophy to your blocking. Who said you had to be stiff and rigid?

I just keep hearing the same old question about TKD being street effective and any art can be street effective is used properly. After all, TKD was originally a military art and not a sport art. You just have to tell your instructor what you want out of the art and if he cannot provide this for you,it's time to move on.

Also, each kwon of TKD is a bit different. The Ji Du Kwan people can be a bit rougher than some of the others...same for the Han Moo Kwan.

If you know dropping your hands won't work on the street...then don't do it.

[Helm]

Great post Kwan Jang, the points you laid out there always held lightly in my mind as suspicions. But its nice to hear someone from experience explain it :)

[STASH]

Is TKD effective on its own as self defence...NO

And this is coming from someone who has done it for over a decade.

[tkd_princess78]

Ok I hope TKD will really works when I need it to. My husband and i were play fighting. He was trying to get $20 out of my hand. I could he back kicked him in the nuts but I didnt really wanna hurt him but I did make one big mistake. He was behind me I had the $20 in my right hand he use pressure point but I have a high tolerance to pain I had natural child birth lol. I pulled my arm down to my thighs I was going to hold his arm between my thighs but he pull my arm between my legs so fast i slapped into the floor I was not hurt I could not move because I was laughin so hard I could not believe he did that to me.. lol Just thought I would share that with you have a great laugh!!! lol :D

[Guy Mendiola]

C'mon guys, how old is this question...is TKD street effective? Yes, it is and no, at times it isn't. It depends on who is teaching and how they teach and how you use it. I look at TKD in two catagories.... the first one being sport TKD and the second being combat TKD. The sport TKD seems to like to emphasize sparring, one steps, and kata. The latter tends to emphasize no set one steps (your instructor shows you the one step, but it's not done for static and the student changes it a bit to suit them), full contact sparring, balance breaking, not a huge emphasis on kata, and lots and lots of good ol breaking, maiming, and hyper extending activities. It's basically what happens when you strip it down to what is effective more on the street than in a ring with a few judges.

Okay, first of all about the blocks. The arm only goes one direction...in a circle...whether you do an outside or an inside or down block, it does not matter, the in block circles down and becomes a down block, circles the opposite direction and becomes an outside block and so forth...it's all that good ol circular movement.

As a TKD practioneer, you have to know the difference between what works in sparring and what works on the street, if you think the two are the same, then you'll be in for a shock on the street.

I can only relate to you my experience with TKD. Punches were just as valuable as kicking (it is the way of the hand and foot...not just the foot). So, in sparring we could "head hunt". Now, we have all these handy kicks right? Well, just take the round house and make it low to the knees, snap kick to the groin instead of the chest.

Every ma has to have their own identity and philosophy away from the instructors and the other students, you should not become just a walking repitition of your instructor. Instead of doing the hard blocks, do what I call "shoeing away at flies" When you shoe a fly away, you are basically slapping and swatting and your arm is loose...apply this philosophy to your blocking. Who said you had to be stiff and rigid?

I just keep hearing the same old question about TKD being street effective and any art can be street effective is used properly. After all, TKD was originally a military art and not a sport art. You just have to tell your instructor what you want out of the art and if he cannot provide this for you,it's time to move on.

Also, each kwon of TKD is a bit different. The Ji Du Kwan people can be a bit rougher than some of the others...same for the Han Moo Kwan.

If you know dropping your hands won't work on the street...then don't do it.This is a good opinion because Tae Kwon Do is effective on the street.

[enlwlffo]

I dunno bout others, but i've found tkd invaluable on the streets
i went to a school where i was the only korean in a population of bigots.
when modified not only are the kicks awesome to use (especially if ur fast enough to get that push/front kick up to bout stomach level) but tkd trains ur body to take hits, helps wit endurance, speed, stamina, strength, and one thing i especially liked was how you know what parts of the body are especially sensitive to pain and how to easily get to them.
tkd is also very helpful when you are getting attacked by multiple people.

[kickcatcher]

but tkd trains ur body to take hits, helps wit endurance, speed, stamina, strength, and one thing i especially liked was how you know what parts of the body are especially sensitive to pain and how to easily get to them.. What, to the same extent as a Muay Thai or kickboxing? Does it train you to experience being punched in the face?


tkd is also very helpful when you are getting attacked by multiple people.
How come?

[kickcatcher]

[QUOTE=Tosh re. 'deadly' techniques in TKD]
By sparring full contact with pads and no pads. End of. I do it in my class and it's pretty much everyday occurance in 90% of the blackbelt classes.

Do you spar the fingers to throat or whatever 'deadly' technique I was replying to, at full contact then?

[Tosh]

And while I am at it, is Tosh really a moderator? I've never seen a mod threaten to terminate a thread if he/she got bored with it. Maybe he was just playing around.

Very respectfully,


1) Yes I am.

2) I put that warning to stop any childish "TKS sucks" vs "No it doesn't" type flame wars which regularly happen during the course of these type of discussions. I fail to see where you get the idea I would lock it because I was bored with it? I threatened to lock it if things got stupid - big difference.

As it is, things have been pretty half decent hence the continuation, although I'm curious why you brought that one up? Bizzare :D

[enlwlffo]

What, to the same extent as a Muay Thai or kickboxing? Does it train you to experience being punched in the face?


How come?

Lol i've done a little kickboxing too, and its just my personal opinion but i'd say tkd is better for kicking to the face. and spar full contact wit big fast people and get kicked in the face alot, and see if it doesn't train u to get hit. btw my sparring partner was 6'5", 330 pounds solid muscle waistline 40, and very, very quick. I'm 5'10" 190 pounds waistline 30. Try it.

i would say because you can train to kick extremely quick at all ranges, and in a 360degree field of attack angle. taekwondo also strengthens wrists very effectively for punching, and the endless pushups you do give u quick and strong punches and the like.

[enlwlffo]

[QUOTE=Tosh re. 'deadly' techniques in TKD]
By sparring full contact with pads and no pads. End of. I do it in my class and it's pretty much everyday occurance in 90% of the blackbelt classes.

Do you spar the fingers to throat or whatever 'deadly' technique I was replying to, at full contact then?

a backkick to the throat or face or side of head is just as deadly as fingers to throat. also, an experienced person wouldn't let u get close enough to jab him/her in the throat wit your fingers. I would bring my leg up and push u away if you got that close quicker than you can rush in

or i'd sidestep and kick or jump back with you while jumpbackkick

[Tosh]

[QUOTE=Tosh re. 'deadly' techniques in TKD]

Do you spar the fingers to throat or whatever 'deadly' technique I was replying to, at full contact then?

*Hands held high in air*

Twas a fair cop guv ;)

Yup I certainly don't and can't (since I aint nowhere near experienced enough or have student I would trust to do it). I HAVE taken part in classes where the sparring is both full contact AND NHB but personally think too much can go wrong in a part time MA environment without proper medical attention to hand to be honest in order for me to allow it.

However, I have participated in non complaint 1-step which highlights a lot of where this stuff falls down once a resisiting oppenent is placed in front of you.

I shouldn't have worded my response the way I did. I missed the deadly techniques part in your post and was referring to sparring more along MT rules... my humblest apologies ;)

I do fully agree with you that you cannot claim to have these techiques as effective if you are not regularly training them. Fair point. :)

[kickcatcher]

a backkick to the throat or face or side of head is just as deadly as fingers to throat. also, an experienced person wouldn't let u get close enough to jab him/her in the throat wit your fingers. I would bring my leg up and push u away if you got that close quicker than you can rush in

or i'd sidestep and kick or jump back with you while jumpbackkick

Interesting viewpoint. All nice in theory. Sadly I see the real world through very different glasses. A couple odf questions:
1. How do you train to do a backkick to the throat?
2. Is the throat, a small moving target area, a realistic target for a spinning kick? -do you have the accuracy to apply it in a high pressure situation?
3. Are you of the opinion that such high kicks are reliable enough for 'real' situations.
4. On what basis is the notion that 'an experienced person' won't let you hget close enough to jab at their throat? Who is an experienced person?

As for the idea of stop sidekick quicker than you rush in. If I was a betting man, I'd bet that you have at best 60% chance of stop sidekicking me. That's 40% when I'll get through. 40% means that sooner or later I will get through. But at any rate, if you did a pushing stop side kick, I reckon that I'd have about a 75% of grabbing your foot/trouser on the first kick. That would be you into groundfighting. :woo: :woo: :woo:
But I'm not a betting man and I'm also not suggesting that I'm better than you or anything. :Angel: :)


TOSH,
Cool. Nice one.

[enlwlffo]

Interesting viewpoint. All nice in theory. Sadly I see the real world through very different glasses. A couple odf questions:
1. How do you train to do a backkick to the throat?
2. Is the throat, a small moving target area, a realistic target for a spinning kick? -do you have the accuracy to apply it in a high pressure situation?
3. Are you of the opinion that such high kicks are reliable enough for 'real' situations.
4. On what basis is the notion that 'an experienced person' won't let you hget close enough to jab at their throat? Who is an experienced person?

As for the idea of stop sidekick quicker than you rush in. If I was a betting man, I'd bet that you have at best 60% chance of stop sidekicking me. That's 40% when I'll get through. 40% means that sooner or later I will get through. But at any rate, if you did a pushing stop side kick, I reckon that I'd have about a 75% of grabbing your foot/trouser on the first kick. That would be you into groundfighting. :woo: :woo: :woo:
But I'm not a betting man and I'm also not suggesting that I'm better than you or anything. :Angel: :)


TOSH,
Cool. Nice one.

1. lol sorry this one might not have been fair i especially liked the backkick and trained with it, same with hook kick. after awhile i found it faster than my roundhouse and i could hit a very small target area
2. yes, yes
3. sometimes. u just gotta go with the flow, low kicks, ones right above the groin below the navel is a very good target coz it'll kill your balance
4. i have tried punchin to face and almost had my ribcage imploded, always keep moving to protect ur vitals, and dont move predictively

depends on how fast you are
at tournaments and real situations my quick leading-foot sidekick has been very successful at stopping basically any attacks
also, most people cannot grab a sidekick that just slammed into their ribs (or hip, or anywhere painful and anywhere they would lose their balance) at very high velocity, then again i dunno how good you are and i don't mean to talk in a condescending manner please don't misinterpret

[kickcatcher]

I admire your confidence. But I think that you might want to check out some Geoff Thompson literature on reality Self defence. Spinning kicks don't count high in the list of effective techniques in 'real' situations. No offence.

Re the stop kick. Yes, I like this move to. <EDITED>

[Poop-Loops]

Interesting viewpoint. All nice in theory.


I admire your confidence. But I think that you might want to check out some Geoff Thompson literature on reality Self defence. Spinning kicks don't count high in the list of effective techniques in 'real' situations. No offence.

Re the stop kick. Yes, I like this move to. To explain my viewpoint in more depth:

You kick me in the gut/ribs. I see it coming enough to lift my hips and partially disopate the impact (but not quick enough to evade). In a sense the stop kick is no less predictable than my jab advance so the counter wouldn't surprise me. The impact on me slows your kick down. After impact, whilst you are still pushing, I have already grabbed your kick, probably by the trousers. Whilst you faff around trying to punch me, I am pulling you and then swinging you by your foot. As I get my breath back, I switch up a gear and take you down in any number of ways. I could, I suppose kick you in the groin if I chose -how would you stop me?

That is one danger of sidekicking.

As a more advanced trick, I could fient the jab and hop back as you extend the kick (drawing you). This way I could catch you without the discomfot of you kicking me.

Talk about blowing your own horn...

PL

[Tosh]

I could, I suppose kick you in the groin if I chose -how would you stop me?

Easy, I would rewind time to the point where I decided to kick you above the waist (a high risk move) when you were in a position to counter. ;)

Kicks to the waist in head are very usefull in a self defence situation, you just need to make sure your opponent is already on the ground.

In all seriousness ;) (hey when am I any different) these are the type of lessons that are only learned by allowing someone to grab your leg in the first place. The problem is too many TKD classes quote "sparring" when what they mean is "competition sparring", I let students go at it no pads and let the amount of techs expand a bit. Ideally I would include grabbing etc , but that would include mats headgear etc which, is not the primary focus for my class of beginners ;).

[chungmoomonkey]

the blocks are not suposed to be used the way they are practiced because do people always throw strait evin punches no the dont so u must improvise
i agree that the legs in tkd are grate and the hand in kung ful are awsome so the mixture is superior.

[enlwlffo]

kickcatcher-
i know what you're talking about
one time quite a while ago i had my foot grabbed in a fight, and the throw to the ground was so brutal that it cracked 4 of my ribs
when i see u start to evade the blow i pull it
that's just the way i kick, especially if i saw u about to try to grab my leg
when i see your hands get near my leg i would yank my foot torward the ground wit all my power at the same time bring the other one up into the chest, or face, or neck.
trust me it works
the principle used is that the power u have in your fingers during the initial grabbing would not be stronger than the power with which i can slam my foot down.
this is just the way i do it, and it works for me

[enlwlffo]

as a reply to your spinning kick comment-
i believe it all depends on the person
i think the best experience i had with spinning hook kick is when a guy bout 4 inches taller than me was getting in my face
i just shoved him just enough to get him in range, took a step forward and him him in the side of the face
i did it extremely fast and he had to way of blocking it
he had to get stiches in his face

[Mujuk Striker]

Hello fellow TKDists, this is my first official post.

Well, I kinda skipped around this particular thread but I often come across ideas and arguments concerning the efficiency of TKD in a real live street situation. The fact is that any style is known for its own strengths (i.e. kenpo with punches) and the fact that TKD has great kicks doesnt excuse lack of punches and throws, which depends on the style of the teacher/student.

Another thing is that TKD is great for self defense, but i it was really founded on principles of developing a state of mind and to maintain discipline.

Finally, Concerning other styles in comparison, TKD vs. Kung Fu for instance, kung fu often seems to train specifically in combinations that are appropriate in combat, thus creating a quicker and knowledgable fighter. However, if you train properly in combat TKD you should rival the prowess of any martial artist :D . That is all.

[STASH]

OK, I know I'm gonna get flammed for this, but here it goes:

TKD is a sport, plain and simple. It is restricted to mainly one range (although sometimes there are exceptions), the kicks are designed to score points rather then to actually hurt (please remember, I have trained in TKD for over 10 years). The traditional self defence drills are complete and utter trash. Anyone who knows self defence; Geoff Thompson, Rich Dimitri, Tony Blauer and others have been saying the same thing over and over; complicated techniques designed for sport simply dont work in real life. It's not about "I would do this if you do this", real life isnt like that. Real life encounters are not like sparring matches, its not a war of attacks and counter attacks, it's one big bloody mess.

I have noticed that many TKD people (I used to be in this group myself) simply have no idea of anything other then TKD. Please, if you are interested in self defence do a little research.

Remember, anything complicated generally falls apart when the sh*t hits the fan. Terry O'Neil, a British bouncer who was famous for knocking people out with kicking techniques, never used anything too complicated (and he's one of the very few who was able to knock people out with kicks when it counted most in the first place). If you want to find out about the effectiveness of kicks in self-defence, he's probably the best person to research. There's lots of information concerning him on the Geoff Thompson website.

[enlwlffo]

lol i don't wanna flame you but what you practiced is sport taekwondo
i recently started WTF, i have mostly trained in combative tkd
i also did judo and some kickboxing

also
the most famous gangster in Korean history, Kim Doo Han (all you koreans probly recognize the name) became the best streetfighter in Korea at the age of 17, and that's korean age i think. (i might be wrong) which makes him 16 the way we think of age.
His entire fighting style was based on a tkd-like concept with mostly kicks
People who have seen him in action say he was extremely quick and powerful with his kicks. There are recorded historic events of fights in which he was EXTREMELY outnumbered and took them all out.
before you bash kicking as a good fighting style please take a look at Kim , Doo Han
P.S. i think he also liked spin kicks a lot, not just real simple kicks
im not saying he didn't use his hands, of course he did, he's a gangster, but he mainly relied on kicking

[STASH]

lol i don't wanna flame you but what you practiced is sport taekwondo
i recently started WTF, i have mostly trained in combative tkd
i also did judo and some kickboxing

also
the most famous gangster in Korean history, Kim Doo Han (all you koreans probly recognize the name) became the best streetfighter in Korea at the age of 17, and that's korean age i think. (i might be wrong) which makes him 16 the way we think of age.
His entire fighting style was based on a tkd-like concept with mostly kicks
People who have seen him in action say he was extremely quick and powerful with his kicks. There are recorded historic events of fights in which he was EXTREMELY outnumbered and took them all out.
before you bash kicking as a good fighting style please take a look at Kim , Doo Han
P.S. i think he also liked spin kicks a lot, not just real simple kicks
im not saying he didn't use his hands, of course he did, he's a gangster, but he mainly relied on kicking

Nope, I did WTF TKD under Michael Deh, one of the first Africans to ever become a qualified instructor.

There are always exceptions to everything, I believe Kim Doo Han was a great fighter, however street fighting is very different from what you are taught at TKD, combative or sport. I guarantee that Kim Doo Han had to adapt his techniques so that they would work. Once again, I urge you guys to do some research.

I never bashed kicking, and it isnt a fighting style. It's a range of combat and a tool.


www.geoffthompson.com
www.senshido.com

[enlwlffo]

yea he did have to adapt it to street fighting
but people who saw him in action commented on how much he kicked versus punched.
wow
imagine being that good at kicks
pretty dam incredible

[davjohns]

Tosh,

I read your initial response to this thread. Perhaps I misunderstood your intent:

"How many times do we need to go through these same discussions?

It's getting pretty boring.

"x doesn't work on the street" threads have been done to death, Thank you please.

Please do one of 2 things:

1) Find a new angle on it and post something that has not been talked about before.
2) Expect me to lock this thread if there is a hint of it descending into nonsense." (emphasis added)

It was not clear to me that you meant name calling and flaming by the term nonsense. I was still on your comment that it was boring.

Sorry if you were offended.

dwj

[kickcatcher]

kickcatcher-
i know what you're talking about
one time quite a while ago i had my foot grabbed in a fight, and the throw to the ground was so brutal that it cracked 4 of my ribs
when i see u start to evade the blow i pull it
that's just the way i kick, especially if i saw u about to try to grab my leg
when i see your hands get near my leg i would yank my foot torward the ground wit all my power at the same time bring the other one up into the chest, or face, or neck.
trust me it works
the principle used is that the power u have in your fingers during the initial grabbing would not be stronger than the power with which i can slam my foot down.
this is just the way i do it, and it works for me

I've reread my previous post and it came across wrong. What I meant was that stop-sidekick is cool within the rules sparring context of TKD but it does have further limitations when you reduce the rules. Grabbing it is relatively straightforward for instance. I'm not so sure about the retracting it because you see that the opponernt is trying to grab it. You must be a much better kicker than at my TKD club.

Tosh is right when he infers that the sparring rules limit understanding/awareness of the inherent weaknesses of techniques.

Stash is right 100%.

[kickcatcher]

yea he did have to adapt it to street fighting
but people who saw him in action commented on how much he kicked versus punched.
wow
imagine being that good at kicks
pretty dam incredible

Imagine being good on the street. Sod whether it's kicking, punching, throws etc. I don't see the kudos in kicking relative to any other way of winning.

[Lanakin]

I'll have to comment on this. While Taekwondo isn't (Or doesn't seem to be) as effective as rivaling MA's, it still gives a good base for support (Discipline, respect) as well as some combat experience. It's a great starting point to help you out later on down the road. Which, later on, would make it an effective art overall. And I DO agree that the "flashy" moves are there to earn points in competitions, and aren't as effective as the other straight-forward "Non-flashy" attacks. :o But, there is room for disagreement, as always. This is all IMO, so don't take anything I say the wrong way.

:woo:

[Tosh]

Sorry if you were offended.


None was ever taken, we ALL get the wrong end of the stick sometimes (insert stick-fighting joke here). Don't think I'll ever run away from TKD discussion just because I think people have good points.

The problem is that I have been here too long and could point you to numerous other threads which highlight the same arguments which go on here.

Search for some TMA vs MMA stuff inthe general discussion to see what I mean. So far i think everyone is learning a lot in this one :D. Long may it continue I say.

[Infesticon #1]

hee hee, I dunno about proper techniques to get out of a one foot grab but I used to jump kick them in the head with my other foot, toe side or heel side depending on which foot grabbed me.

yeah I'll end up on the floor but this is such an absurd theoretical situation I don't really care.

[Lanakin]

Well, that's an easy one. I was practicing w/ my Dad (Messing around, really), and I kicked at him so he grabbed my leg right behind the knee, and I dropped down and landing my palm on the ground and reached my other heel up to his heart. Luckily, it didn't hit. :D

:woo:

[enlwlffo]

hee hee, I dunno about proper techniques to get out of a one foot grab but I used to jump kick them in the head with my other foot, toe side or heel side depending on which foot grabbed me.

yeah I'll end up on the floor but this is such an absurd theoretical situation I don't really care.

lol
this looks good in the movies, but many people expect this now
so imagine i grab ur leg and u try to kick me wit the other
so i raise my other arm and ur foot smashes into my arm and u smash into the ground

[enlwlffo]

I've reread my previous post and it came across wrong. What I meant was that stop-sidekick is cool within the rules sparring context of TKD but it does have further limitations when you reduce the rules. Grabbing it is relatively straightforward for instance. I'm not so sure about the retracting it because you see that the opponernt is trying to grab it. You must be a much better kicker than at my TKD club.

Tosh is right when he infers that the sparring rules limit understanding/awareness of the inherent weaknesses of techniques.

Stash is right 100%.

i didn't mean retracting it so much as smashing it torwards the ground as soon as i see you bout to grab it
then im set up to kick u again and ur wondering where my foot went
we did alot of work in this at our school coz alot of kids would get someone's kick to land on their arm
and then raise their arm quickly
so its the equivalent of grabbing and raising, but it'd be real subtle and most of the time the referee wouldn't call it

[STASH]

Stash is right 100%.

Thank you :cool:

[Infesticon #1]

lol
this looks good in the movies, but many people expect this now
so imagine i grab ur leg and u try to kick me wit the other
so i raise my other arm and ur foot smashes into my arm and u smash into the ground
I don't think you understand my post

Say I'm standing left leg on and kick you, depending on how you're standing my kick will vary. we'll presume you're standing left leg on too for this example. so I turning kick(roundhouse) into your left arm, I now jump and spin to kick you in the left side of your face, how does your right hand block it?

[Lanakin]

Hey.. Just do my move.. It works.. Lol..

:woo:

[enlwlffo]

Hey.. Just do my move.. It works.. Lol..

:woo:

lol lanakin's right
it works
better than heart is groin though
but this isn't as good if there's a couple more guys

[enlwlffo]

I don't think you understand my post

Say I'm standing left leg on and kick you, depending on how you're standing my kick will vary. we'll presume you're standing left leg on too for this example. so I turning kick(roundhouse) into your left arm, I now jump and spin to kick you in the left side of your face, how does your right hand block it?

lol i meant if i were to grab ur foot
if u do what u wrote up there i would do 360 turn roundhouse kick into and under ur spin kick
it works

[kickcatcher]

enlwlffo, I'm a bit 50:50 as to whether your smashing the foot down work work either. I'll have to pressure test it.

As for all this kicking with the 'free' (read support) leg at an opponent who has caught your leg. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I take it that you guys haven't pressure tested that. I call that style of move a 'sacrifice' kick because it's a bit like putting all your eggs in one basket. If the kick doesn't KO them then you end up on your ass with another fighter controlling your legs. In sparring this style of move could so easily end up with the kicker being turned into a rear-mount position or leglock.

With the sacrifice kicks, I'd sooner try machinegun tiger-tail kicks (a bit like a back kick) than jumping around the other way with a roundkick.

The most feasible 'escape' that I have found is for the kicker to immediately jump in and planrt really heavy punches to the catcher's face, hopefully causing a cover-up which results in the release of the leg. But if it doesn't work then the kicker just has to reside themselves to the inevitable groundfight on uneven terms....

But I'm always on the lookout for new techniques.

[enlwlffo]

enlwlffo, I'm a bit 50:50 as to whether your smashing the foot down work work either. I'll have to pressure test it.

As for all this kicking with the 'free' (read support) leg at an opponent who has caught your leg. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I take it that you guys haven't pressure tested that. I call that style of move a 'sacrifice' kick because it's a bit like putting all your eggs in one basket. If the kick doesn't KO them then you end up on your ass with another fighter controlling your legs. In sparring this style of move could so easily end up with the kicker being turned into a rear-mount position or leglock.

With the sacrifice kicks, I'd sooner try machinegun tiger-tail kicks (a bit like a back kick) than jumping around the other way with a roundkick.

The most feasible 'escape' that I have found is for the kicker to immediately jump in and planrt really heavy punches to the catcher's face, hopefully causing a cover-up which results in the release of the leg. But if it doesn't work then the kicker just has to reside themselves to the inevitable groundfight on uneven terms....

But I'm always on the lookout for new techniques.

lol i agree wit u in that the jump roundhouse kick after getting foot grabbed is not a very good idea
but if u try to jump in and punch them all they have to do is get close, plant their face in ur chest and kick ur other leg out
if they get a solid hold on ur leg and u cant power it down, i personally IMO think its better to drop on ur hands and kick them in the groin
or u could jump in real quick and wrap an arm around their neck
if u go down, so do they :D
but there's always the chance that a good fighter will just break ur ankle while u try to do anything which would leave u looking like this :eek:

[Infesticon #1]

my point really was that this is all hypothetical and it's a bit pointless saying

"you do x, I'll do y"

"when you then do z (out of however many choices) I'll then do a"

anything can work on paper. This is little more than the time machine game they play in a most excellent film about Bill S Preston Esq. and Ted Theodore Logan

[surgingshark]

anything can work on paper. This is little more than the time machine game they play in a most excellent film about Bill S Preston Esq. and Ted Theodore Logan

On a side note, Hal Landon Jr. (The guy that played Ted Theodore Logan's Dad) just happened to be my acting teacher at Long Beach City College :) He's got an incredible amount of energy for a guy his age :D

[Kenpo Kicker]

I think it is more effective than not knowing jack :) . If you work on hand and foot combos and don't stop then yes it can be pretty good. Kick low in fights. Take their knees out with those strong tkd legs :) . Ground fighting is kind needed for street fights so it would be hard with just pure tkd.

[blessed_samurai]

The Jidokwan school usually teaches grappling (the founder was trained in Judo and incorportaed this into the cirriculum). I have talked to several students who train also in the Jidokwan branch and they all confer the same, that they also have trained in grappling or ground fighting to some extent in their studies of Jidokwan TKD. After my long winded thought, I have posted some basic history. Jidokwan (for those not familiar) is one of the first five kwans of TKD. Some of the different TKD schools of thought can be quite different from one another. The TKD styles I trained under are Jidokwan and Han Moo Kwan. I find it also interesting how intertwined Karate and TKD are. I had the pleasure of learning under Master Mike Dunn who brought in a little of his experience while being a beat cop to TKD. So, while we did do some high kicking, mainly for balance purposes, most of our kicks were aimed at gut level and below, knees were important, as were elbows. Anyway, I always appreciated his insights when we were doing different self defense techniques on what he thought worked and why and he always welcomed us bringing in questions and ideas as to something we thought effective and then we'd put it to trial and if it didn't work...well, it was thrown out. So, when I think of TKD and being street effective, I say yes...it definately can and no art is just strictly one way. So, TKD is not just sport, it is what you want it to be.

Chapter 1: The Development of the Kwans

Chapter 1, Section 2: Choson Yun Moo Kwan Kong Soo Do Bu
(Jidokwan)

The Jidokwan was founded by an elite member, CHUN Sang Sup,
on May 3, 1946 as the Choson Yun Moo Kwan Kong Soo Do Bu.

When he was a teenager, he learned Judo and learned Karate while
studying abroad in Japan. After the Independence Day, he opened
the Choson Yun Moo Kwan Kong Soo Do Bu at the former Judo
school, Choson Yun Moo Kwan, where he taught Judo and Karate.
He began to recruit new members. He had a slender figure and was
not particular, but was an intellect and always wore suits. However,
during the Korean War, he vanished, the Choson Yun Moo Kwan
Kong Soo Do Bu was abolished and it was renamed Jidokwan.

After Independence Day, the Choson Yun Moo Kwan taught no
guep (mu guep) to 8th guep in high, middle and low classes. The
student's Kwan number was based on guep promotion, and not only
the day of the first registration as a student.

The Choson Yun Moo Kwan was started in Seoul, but the major
development and structural growth was spread from Chun Ju, Cholla
Buk Do as a center. Then, CHUN Il Sup opened another school in
Kunsan, Cholla Buk Do in May 1947, and spread his school's
reputation from Jun Joo to Kunsan, I Ri, Nam Won, Jung Uep and
more.

During the Korean War, the Choson Yun Moo Kwan's name was
changed to Jidokwan. After CHUN Sang Sup was kidnapped to
North Korea, the Jidokwan (Wisdom Way School) was opened and
ran by YOON Kwe Byung and LEE Chong Woo until 1967.
However, through the process of unification with the Korea Tae
Soo Do Association, the Jidokwan had conflicts between YOON
Kwe Byung and LEE Chong Woo. Led by LEE Chong Woo
(Jidokwan), LEE Nam Suk (Chang Moo Kwan), UHM Woon Kyu
(Chung Do Kwan), HYUN Jong Myun (Chung Do Kwan/Oh Do
Kwan) and others planned to unify, but YOON Kwe Byung and
HWANG Kee (Moo Duk Kwan) declined and persisted with their
independent promotion test committee.

[kickcatcher]

Interesting stuff.

I agree that Judo is great but it needs fundemental concept changes (from the mainstream sport) for the groundfighting to transpose into self defence. In particular the perceived safety of the Turtle position and the emphasis on pinning. But that's only an opinion. And abscence/infrequency of natural mount position.

[blessed_samurai]

You are right Kickcatcher. The arts that have a sport emphasis on them can have their quirks...but all arts can. I don't believe there is really any fool proof plan. I think what every student should realize is that their body works differently than every one else, so the art is a bit unique to each person. Each person has to adapt their learnings to what works for them.

I had an instructor that always said, learn as much as you can and what works for you because in the end, it is not the thousands of techniques that will save our ass but usually just a few.

I always liked the K.I.S.S. thought...keep it simple stupid.

[mattsylvester]

Take what you've learn and now think out of the box. Read around the subject and train in styles like kenpo, ninjutsu and stick fighting. Then apply what you've seen to TKD. It's there.

Is Tae Kwon Do really effective. I have taken Tae Kwon Do for a long time now, and i really thing waht they have tought be wasn't effective. It is impposible to use high section block, inner block, outer block on the streets.

yes i agree the punches and kicks do help, but really, thats it. Maybe it's just my school, but i really think Tae Kwon Do isn't that effective. Now I take Kung Fu and i find it is much better. What do you guys think of Tae Kwon Do?

[Sagat]

I have a friend who just came from Korea and he told me that there is another type of TKD that is taught specifically for real life situations. He didn't know too much about it but some of his friends have tried it and they told him it was scary as sh*t.

[Osu]

IMO TKD does not work very well on the street to say it nice.

I'll just assume that in the average streetfight you don't get to do a warmup and jeans are also not very usefull for highkicks.
Most blocks don't work well, especially if you start of with your hands down. You're not trained for punches to the head, not trained for impact, not trained for closer distance (IMO TKD can only work at large distance).
I've heard nice theories about how 1 kick would break a rib because it can break a thin wooden board, but just look at full-contact events: very unlikely to happen.
So basically: not very usefull on the street

[LeadLegger]

Even my instructor told me that TaeKwonDo kicks are only for the Dojo. For street fighting scenarios, he told me to shin kick (something not taught in taekwondo) to the thigh to lower their guard and so you won't lose balance. And my GrandMaster said kick them in a groin :Angel: Tae Kwon Do does help in a way, you are used to reacting, but not as much as maybe boxing.

[blessed_samurai]

IMO TKD does not work very well on the street to say it nice.

I'll just assume that in the average streetfight you don't get to do a warmup and jeans are also not very usefull for highkicks.
Most blocks don't work well, especially if you start of with your hands down. You're not trained for punches to the head, not trained for impact, not trained for closer distance (IMO TKD can only work at large distance).
I've heard nice theories about how 1 kick would break a rib because it can break a thin wooden board, but just look at full-contact events: very unlikely to happen.
So basically: not very usefull on the street

Okay, I think I've said this before prob on this very thread and I'll say it again. If you're judging all TKD by what you see at certain competitions or from what people say, then you're grossly over generalizing. It's not like TKD started out as sporting art and not all schools treat it as a sporting art. My first TKD instructor who spent years and years as a Brooklyn street cop intergrated what worked for him in those skirmishes. He always said, if you want to kick somoene in the head, kick them in the balls, when and if the head comes down, then kick them in the head.

TKD is not all high kicks, it's known for having those spectacular high kicks, but if a TKD practioneer can pull off those high kicks, his or her low kicks will be that much faster and stronger.

Hands down? That's only certain TKD sparring circles that do that. I've never put my hands down during sparring or on the streets and in the TKD schools I've attended, you'd get your head knocked off by either a punch to the head or a kick to the head. And believe me, at least in my experience, if you did put your hands down, you might just get knocked out...seen it over and over again.

I'm still not sure if judging an art by what you see in competitions is a fair judge of what will happen in the streets.

OSU, I see you're a karate practioneer. Well, the same generalizations made for TKD can be made for karate. Most of the karate I have seen spends a lot of time doing hard outside blocks and hard down blocks with all your power involved and when striking they bring the arm back to their hips to release that mighty reverse punch. Would you guys do that on the street? I think not. I've seen the Goju people stand with their toes pointed inward, would they stand that way in a street fight? I think not.

At the basics, the blocks are taught with exagerated movements. In the outside block, you bring your arm up to where your fist is in front of your face and you swing it outward to where it is parallel with your ear. Okay, so does anyone really think that we'd have time to do that in the street? No. It's only done that way so you can get the correct position and movement, from there it gets shortened up and becomes faster.

I don't know about all TKD schools but mine have spent more time working on kicks against knees and shins and foot stomps and striking. Most TKD practioneers will realize there is a difference between tournament and street.

In going to open tournaments, I've seen kung fuists, TKDists, Karatekas, etc all do things that they wouldn't do on the streets. We realize this is a different animal. Those that go to ITF and open tournaments don't wear chest protectors...so you better be ready to take a body shot, the head is a perfectly legal target, so be ready to get hit in the head.

I guess until you have spent time in a TKD school and I don't mean a couple classes, then it's best not to make generalizations. It'd be like me saying I saw a couple karate guys and you know, all karate is the same, and they did this and that and so all karate is like that...which as most of us know is completely wrong.

Go spend some time at an ITF school and then go spend some time at a WTF school and then go spend some time at an UTSA school and etc and you will see quite a bit of difference in the way classes are conducted and what they concentrate on.

[Infesticon #1]

Okay, I think I've said this before prob on this very thread and I'll say it again. If you're judging all TKD by what you see at certain competitions or from what people say, then you're grossly over generalizing. It's not like TKD started out as sporting art and not all schools treat it as a sporting art. My first TKD instructor who spent years and years as a Brooklyn street cop intergrated what worked for him in those skirmishes. He always said, if you want to kick somoene in the head, kick them in the balls, when and if the head comes down, then kick them in the head.

TKD is not all high kicks, it's known for having those spectacular high kicks, but if a TKD practioneer can pull off those high kicks, his or her low kicks will be that much faster and stronger.

Hands down? That's only certain TKD sparring circles that do that. I've never put my hands down during sparring or on the streets and in the TKD schools I've attended, you'd get your head knocked off by either a punch to the head or a kick to the head. And believe me, at least in my experience, if you did put your hands down, you might just get knocked out...seen it over and over again.

I'm still not sure if judging an art by what you see in competitions is a fair judge of what will happen in the streets.

OSU, I see you're a karate practioneer. Well, the same generalizations made for TKD can be made for karate. Most of the karate I have seen spends a lot of time doing hard outside blocks and hard down blocks with all your power involved and when striking they bring the arm back to their hips to release that mighty reverse punch. Would you guys do that on the street? I think not. I've seen the Goju people stand with their toes pointed inward, would they stand that way in a street fight? I think not.

At the basics, the blocks are taught with exagerated movements. In the outside block, you bring your arm up to where your fist is in front of your face and you swing it outward to where it is parallel with your ear. Okay, so does anyone really think that we'd have time to do that in the street? No. It's only done that way so you can get the correct position and movement, from there it gets shortened up and becomes faster.

I don't know about all TKD schools but mine have spent more time working on kicks against knees and shins and foot stomps and striking. Most TKD practioneers will realize there is a difference between tournament and street.

In going to open tournaments, I've seen kung fuists, TKDists, Karatekas, etc all do things that they wouldn't do on the streets. We realize this is a different animal. Those that go to ITF and open tournaments don't wear chest protectors...so you better be ready to take a body shot, the head is a perfectly legal target, so be ready to get hit in the head.

I guess until you have spent time in a TKD school and I don't mean a couple classes, then it's best not to make generalizations. It'd be like me saying I saw a couple karate guys and you know, all karate is the same, and they did this and that and so all karate is like that...which as most of us know is completely wrong.

Go spend some time at an ITF school and then go spend some time at a WTF school and then go spend some time at an UTSA school and etc and you will see quite a bit of difference in the way classes are conducted and what they concentrate on.

http://www.ragebox.com/forum/images/smilies/51.gif

[Kenpo Kicker]

IMO TKD does not work very well on the street to say it nice.

I'll just assume that in the average streetfight you don't get to do a warmup and jeans are also not very usefull for highkicks.
Most blocks don't work well, especially if you start of with your hands down. You're not trained for punches to the head, not trained for impact, not trained for closer distance (IMO TKD can only work at large distance).
I've heard nice theories about how 1 kick would break a rib because it can break a thin wooden board, but just look at full-contact events: very unlikely to happen.
So basically: not very usefull on the street

I spar in my jeans it's no problem for my kicks. I don't kick high in street fights but I can kick high with my jeans on. We keep are hands up and our blocks work fine. We block and strike at the same time. We train to punch in the face and anywhere on the head is a striking surface. I can keep punchers at a distance with no problem but I'm also good at punches. We mix with bjj so we are also good on the ground. One kick can break a ribs and has happened in my dojang. When I was doing kenpo I have won one fight with just front kicks. Never down play kicks. They are longer and stronger than punches. That is the advantage of kicks. If kicking fails then I have punches, kness and elbows if you want to get up close with me. I am fast on my hands and fast on my feet. I am a huge fan of elbows so would love somone to get in close for elbow range. It doesn't happen often in sparring unless I close in.

[Tosh]

First off, Osu, face facts 99% of MA are not effective in the street. Still you've had some of your misconceptions (e.g. No hand striks to the head at all) about TKD answered in another thread, why are you still clinging on to them? :confused:

Secondly, I point you all to my first interjection of this thread.

Expect me to lock this thread if there is a hint of it descending into nonsense.

Would all posters please ensure they have read the entire thread before posting. That way old arguments don't get re-hashed again and again thank you pleash ;).

This has been a nice friendly reminder,

From your friendly neighbourhood Topic Mod

Tosh

[Osu]

First of all, your arguments for why it would work are mainly about things you learned that are not basically TKD. If you start to punch to the head, use low-kicks, kick with the shin etc. etc. etc. then you're not using your TKD IMO. I'm not saying you can't pull that of, but the question was will TKD work, not: can you think of something else to do that would work. As for the punches to the head: ok, maybe some practice that but still I don't believe that it's common in TKD. As for the impact, still don't believe that you train for hard impact.

Secondly, I do practice karate yes, but my point was not that karate would work and TKD doesn't. If someone would ask: Would karate work on the street? I can keep a similar story, but that's not the question now.

[Mort]

First of all, your arguments for why it would work are mainly about things you learned that are not basically TKD. If you start to punch to the head, use low-kicks, kick with the shin etc. etc. etc. then you're not using your TKD IMO.
It might not be competition TKD, but that doesn't mean it's not TKD. Punching to the head and low kicks are just as much TKD techniques as kicking people in the head, it's just we don't use them in tournaments. I'm taught them in my school as part of the TKD syllabus, and I'd use them if needed - just not in a competition, which is where most people see TKD in use.

[Tosh]

As for the punches to the head: ok, maybe some practice that but still I don't believe that it's common in TKD.

Osu, the trouble here is you are speaking on a subject which it's obvious you really haven't done your research on. Just because you BELIEVE something to be true doesn't mean to say it is true. I advise you to search this forum and get some background on the different ways TKD is trained before you go wading in with both feet,

Here's a good starting place,

WTF vs ITF - TKD (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2677&page=1&pp=10&highlight=ITF)

Secondly, please don't just bring up claims from other people elswhere. Let's deal with what we are discussing right here and now and leave ridiculous claims to the wayside.

This a hint for everybody who's thinking about losing the plot on this thread BTW

Keep the heid!

Cheers

Tosh

[Andy Murray]

A friend of a friend of mine, once told me that a friend of his told him, that he read somewhere that TKD guys had their arms glued to their sides.

Is this true, and if not, can you prove it!

[Tosh]

Is this true, and if not, can you prove it!

TKD'ist find Arms Unstuck shocker!!!

Only unstuck mine last year, some bugger had sown my dobok up! :D

[Andy Murray]

Dang, you caught my edit. :D

[Tosh]

"The circle is now complete"

Mwahahahahahahahaha :D

[Kenpo Kicker]

we punch anywheres on the head in our tkd tournaments. The karate I take does not punch to the head even during their sparring (not kenpo karate I always refer to it as kenpo). This means dozens of other tkd schools do it as well. This is non-sport itf but we have touraments once in awhile and get invited to them. This isn't the wild wtf sport tkd. I never jump kick in sparring only in drills and I do find it fun. I use kicks under the belt when sparring outside of tkd and karate. The highest I really kick is to the ribs. In my tkd class sometimes I will kick to the head for fun.

[Spike!]

Just so you guys know Bruce Lee got beat too. No matter how good someone is there are always people out there that can beat you. Bruce Lee wasnt born the best. He made up his own style after learning one. That right there goes to show you that no art is the best no matter how good. The best muay thai fighter in the world could have his Ass handed to him by the best TKD artist. You never know. Alot of things influence a fight.

Rob

[Guy Mendiola]

Yeah, It's like the saying "You win some, You lose some, but you live to fight another day".

[ToRNaDo LorD]

I think Tae Kwon Do would be good on the street.
But I think it allso depends on the person, and how the intsructors teaches you.

[Taliar]

1. Attacker rushes TKD'ist from about 8 feet in middle of day in busy city, throws 'haymaker' punch. TKD'ist roles with punch getting blackeye and counters with basic 1 - 2 punch combo. Attacker on floor lights out.

2. Joe Public is punched in pub and goes down. TKDist mate steps in to defend friend. Attacker swings with pint glass. TKD'ist blocks arm, and counterattacks with straight punch.

3. TKD'ist attacked in street by drunk/drug addict. Trips attacker etc then walks away. Attacker gets back up and runs after TKD'ist with syringe in hand. TKD'ist uses jumping back kick and knocks attacker out.

4. TKD'ist gets attacked. Manages to block/avoid several punches. Turning kicks attacker in stomach. Tells attacker to leave. Attacker tries again. TKD'ist kicks to legs, sending attacker to floor, attacker runs off.


These are all real incedents that have happened to myself and people from my club. So while I admit that TKD is not the most street effective art, it is useful/effective as a SD art when applied correctly.

[Timmy Boy]

1. Attacker rushes TKD'ist from about 8 feet in middle of day in busy city, throws 'haymaker' punch. TKD'ist roles with punch getting blackeye and counters with basic 1 - 2 punch combo. Attacker on floor lights out.

2. Joe Public is punched in pub and goes down. TKDist mate steps in to defend friend. Attacker swings with pint glass. TKD'ist blocks arm, and counterattacks with straight punch.

3. TKD'ist attacked in street by drunk/drug addict. Trips attacker etc then walks away. Attacker gets back up and runs after TKD'ist with syringe in hand. TKD'ist uses jumping back kick and knocks attacker out.

4. TKD'ist gets attacked. Manages to block/avoid several punches. Turning kicks attacker in stomach. Tells attacker to leave. Attacker tries again. TKD'ist kicks to legs, sending attacker to floor, attacker runs off.


These are all real incedents that have happened to myself and people from my club. So while I admit that TKD is not the most street effective art, it is useful/effective as a SD art when applied correctly.

Sadly some people will never believe you, though I'm not one of them...

[Taliar]

I know some may not believe my post. I just wanted to show that TKD is not all about kicks and that the training is effective in that it teaches things that most MA's teach. Blocking, footwork, evasion, timing, striking, awareness, taking punches, etc. Just because we learn flashy high kicks etc does not mean that we would use them in self defence or even that we are taught to use them in SD.
I personnally really enjoy the ART side of TKD as well as the martial side, but just because there is an ART side does not mean that the MARTIAL side does not work. Yes other arts may be more effective in SD, but I don't do TKD just for SD, as there is so much more to it, however this doesn't mean that TKD doesn't make people more effective in a SD situation.

[Timmy Boy]

I know some may not believe my post. I just wanted to show that TKD is not all about kicks and that the training is effective in that it teaches things that most MA's teach. Blocking, footwork, evasion, timing, striking, awareness, taking punches, etc. Just because we learn flashy high kicks etc does not mean that we would use them in self defence or even that we are taught to use them in SD.
I personnally really enjoy the ART side of TKD as well as the martial side, but just because there is an ART side does not mean that the MARTIAL side does not work. Yes other arts may be more effective in SD, but I don't do TKD just for SD, as there is so much more to it, however this doesn't mean that TKD doesn't make people more effective in a SD situation.

You're preaching to the choir mate, it's just that many people have already decided that it doesn't work and no amount of you or I defending our arts and providing evidence will change their opinion.

[Taliar]

Ah well. I'm happy - Your happy. Don't matter about the rest.

[funkymonk]

1. Attacker rushes TKD'ist from about 8 feet in middle of day in busy city, throws 'haymaker' punch. TKD'ist roles with punch getting blackeye and counters with basic 1 - 2 punch combo. Attacker on floor lights out.

2. Joe Public is punched in pub and goes down. TKDist mate steps in to defend friend. Attacker swings with pint glass. TKD'ist blocks arm, and counterattacks with straight punch.

3. TKD'ist attacked in street by drunk/drug addict. Trips attacker etc then walks away. Attacker gets back up and runs after TKD'ist with syringe in hand. TKD'ist uses jumping back kick and knocks attacker out.

4. TKD'ist gets attacked. Manages to block/avoid several punches. Turning kicks attacker in stomach. Tells attacker to leave. Attacker tries again. TKD'ist kicks to legs, sending attacker to floor, attacker runs off.


These are all real incedents that have happened to myself and people from my club. So while I admit that TKD is not the most street effective art, it is useful/effective as a SD art when applied correctly.I know these are true because number 2 was me! But i didn't block his arm i just hit him him on the jaw as he went to glass my friend and he dropped to the floor. It shocked me to see the power in my punches as i only weigh 10 1/2 stone and this lad was about 14 stone. So to the question 'does taekwondo work on the street?' then my personal answer would be that it does for me. :) (although i hope i don't have to use it again)

[eudobex]

Ok well I reacon with any martial art it is not just the moves which will help you in a fight but the way you think and move as well. if you watch two people try to do a martial art for the first time, and one of them has previously done a different martial art, you can tell because of the way they move, and react to the situation. So however useless you think TKD must be dont just take it for whats seen, think about how you create your strenght etc. I personally do use blocks alot in sparring, but that might just be cos I have done alot of sparring with people of all different abilities, espically people better than me, cos when I started I was small and could not get techniques in.

In a fight you probabaly would not do techniques how you have been taught, you would just do anything, but you woul dget the strenght and mental ability from your Martial art what ever it is.

1st Dan Black Belt

[Sedvan]

I sometimes find TKD unpractical...and I'm a first Dan black..so stay with me on this one. Many instructors disregard the whole punching aspect of martial arts when it comes to TKD. It is still very valid in combat, but the problem is people don't always know whats effective..Please share opinions and past expereinces.

[Cosmo Kramer]

i have not had to do to much of it, just a front kick the the sack was all i needed. im sure if its done well it can be very effective, but if not it wont be. and we do some punching but i wish TKD focused more on it to be honest.

[littlebadboy]

train the way you want to use your tkd for. find a partner also willing to train for different applications of tkd. the problem these days is that everyone is in the wtf-olympic style fighting hype that they forget the traditional way tkd was intended for.

sometimes, cross-training in other arts is helpful. try a grappling art. from there on, you may be able to formulate an anti-grappling formula so you can get back in using your tkd strikes.

punches? traditional tkd used to have punches in the curriculum... if you don't have it in yours, then train yourself in using them too.

everything depends on yourself how you use the skills you have learned. have an open mind.

taekwon!

[Kwajman]

My son and I took out a teenage mugger using it. Worked fine for us, just a cut on the hand.

[Sedvan]

I've been considering Panther Gung Fu, Ninjutsu, and Keysi. Very hard to find these schools. My Grandmaster is also trained in White Crain, though he does not teach it. Many times I've met with differnet masters and they often try to convince me their form of martial arts is better than TKD.

Does anyone cross train?

[Rochambo83]

I've been considering Panther Gung Fu, Ninjutsu, and Keysi. Very hard to find these schools. My Grandmaster is also trained in White Crain, though he does not teach it. Many times I've met with differnet masters and they often try to convince me their form of martial arts is better than TKD.

Does anyone cross train?

Yes, a lot of them do. I believe there was a thread on this a couple months ago. Search for tkd crosstraining or something similar. And why bring back this year old thread on the neverending question of "des tkd work on t3h str33t?"

[Playful Giant]

Just so you guys know Bruce Lee got beat too. No matter how good someone is there are always people out there that can beat you. Bruce Lee wasnt born the best. He made up his own style after learning one. That right there goes to show you that no art is the best no matter how good. The best muay thai fighter in the world could have his Ass handed to him by the best TKD artist. You never know. Alot of things influence a fight.

Rob

Who did Bruce lose to? I have never found any documented match between Bruce and someone who beat him.

I'm sorry but there is no way that a TKD guy would ever beat a MT guy worth his salt. I train with a black tag TKD guy. He gets beat all the time by a low level MT fighter that we train with. TKD is a very good ring sport but I laugh when I see how you guys try and get out of grabs!

[neryo_tkd]

Who did Bruce lose to? I have never found any documented match between Bruce and someone who beat him.

I'm sorry but there is no way that a TKD guy would ever beat a MT guy worth his salt. I train with a black tag TKD guy. He gets beat all the time by a low level MT fighter that we train with. TKD is a very good ring sport but I laugh when I see how you guys try and get out of grabs!


don't turn this thread into a style vs style thread. if you don't have anything creative to contribute, don't post!!!

[Playful Giant]

don't turn this thread into a style vs style thread. if you don't have anything creative to contribute, don't post!!!

Unfortunatley, I didn't start the style vs style thread, someone beat me to it. Someone mentioned that a good TKD fighter might beat a good MT fighter. It would never happen. Simple as that.

[neryo_tkd]

Unfortunatley, I didn't start the style vs style thread, someone beat me to it.


yes, and you think it's smart to continue it. well, it's not.

[Slindsay]

Unfortunatley, I didn't start the style vs style thread, someone beat me to it. Someone mentioned that a good TKD fighter might beat a good MT fighter. It would never happen. Simple as that.

Yeah thats totally impossible and has never ever happened.

Ever.

Not once.

You'd have to be dellsusional to think it.

Not even if the TKD guy was like 7ft8 and the MT guy was only 3ft tall.

And the TKD guy had some tigers with him.

And sharks.

The ones with lazers on their heads.

And ten ninjas.

not ever, ever ever. At all.

No debate.

Thats it

End of story.

The end.

Stop reading.

The stories finished.

Go away now.

[neryo_tkd]

guys, guys, guys,

i'll repeat it once again: don't post if you don't have anything creative to contribute.

we are not interested in any flaming, insults and other similar stuff.

not get back to topic.

[smiff]

From my personal experience of fighting a practioner of tkd it was quite effective, he must of hit me four times but then he went to kick me in the chest ( big mistake ), far to slow, i grabbed his foot took him to the ground by taking out his other leg, we then went to ground bit of grappling before i got a choke on and he gave up.

This fight took place on grass, so i had no troubles decking him as hard as i could.

I only fought this fella because of his cockiness on how tkd his TKd would woop me any day and i gotta say i have fought boxers and kickboxers and they put up a much better fight than he did but then it depends on the fighter as well so i dont no.

I belive Tkd could be effective on the street if you cross trained with something else, a grappling art?

Luke
London 2012 i'll be there

[Sensei Matt]

Is Tae Kwon Do really effective. I have taken Tae Kwon Do for a long time now, and i really thing waht they have tought be wasn't effective.

the question you should be asking your self is that, how many fights have you had whilst walking down the street or in a pub or anywhere for that matter, and how many how you seen about to kick off and have avoided, the essence of martial arts of any style is not just to become fantastic fighter(well hard) its also to avoid fighting, i used to work for the MOD, after serving in Bosnia for 4 years and being hated by the general public out there you tend to get used to seing fights about to kick off, normal aimed at you, and i only ever had one fight in (in the street) in that 4 years that i couldnt avoid, im still here to talk about it, doesnt mean i kick the cr-p out of the other persons what it means is i did enought to get away. i personaly feel that is a better way of looking at how effictive you MA is to YOU. one mans opinion.

[Faminedynasty]

After David Loiseau obliterated Charles McCarthy in the octagon with a spinning back kick to the solar plexus, Joe Rogan asked him when he incorporated such strikes into his training. And Loiseau said something to the effect that it's nothin to a TKD black belt. It looked effective to me based on the look of anguish on McCarthy's face, and the fact that, shortly thereafter he fell to the floor, not to rise again.

[Faminedynasty]

After David Loiseau obliterated Charles McCarthy in the octagon with a spinning back kick to the solar plexus, Joe Rogan asked him when he incorporated such strikes into his training. And Loiseau said something to the effect that it's nothin to a TKD black belt. It looked effective to me based on the look of anguish on McCarthy's face, and the fact that, shortly thereafter he fell to the floor, not to rise again.
Um, I mean, he didn't get up again during the fight...He wasn't dead...Just to clarify.

[Lithanwif]

From my personal experience of fighting a practioner of tkd it was quite effective, he must of hit me four times but then he went to kick me in the chest ( big mistake ), far to slow, i grabbed his foot took him to the ground by taking out his other leg, we then went to ground bit of grappling before i got a choke on and he gave up.

This fight took place on grass, so i had no troubles decking him as hard as i could.


Luke


Sorry mate, but that aint the art, thats the practitioner. MT guys cross train in grappling/groundwork, as do TKD guys. Just sounds like you cought a dud, you should be able to defend at all ranges, Like you said he should and hopefully now does cross train.

AS for kicking, I chamber/dont chamber, use hip twist/dont use hip twist. I learned both, and I choose to use either as the situation dictates. Why would I limit myself? Yeah in class when running through patterns and basics, I will chamber. But then if Im competing, I might not. And most of the time Im kicking with the shin anyway. and I have to admit, sometimes kicking high front kicks with the heel. Now where did I get that one from?

There's no such thing as a bad art. Just like there's no such thing as a complete one. You can cross train to become a complete martial artist, but no style is gonna do that for ya is it?

[Mitch]

From my personal experience of fighting a practioner of tkd it was quite effective, he must of hit me four times but then he went to kick me in the chest ( big mistake ), far to slow, i grabbed his foot took him to the ground by taking out his other leg, we then went to ground bit of grappling before i got a choke on and he gave up.

This fight took place on grass, so i had no troubles decking him as hard as i could.

I only fought this fella because of his cockiness on how tkd his TKd would woop me any day and i gotta say i have fought boxers and kickboxers and they put up a much better fight than he did but then it depends on the fighter as well so i dont no.

I belive Tkd could be effective on the street if you cross trained with something else, a grappling art?

Luke
London 2012 i'll be there

OK, first of all it's past tense, so "..he must have", the reason you're using "must of" is because you're used to hearing people say "Must've", which is an abbreviation of must have.

Sorry, pet hate, my bad.

If the guy got 4 strikes in and you still carried on, he didn't fight well. I'm glad you feel TKD is quite effective, but seriously, this wasn't a full on street fight was it? One strike - roundhouse to the knee for example - would likely end it if it landed properly. Don't confuse playfights or minor encounters with full on self defence.

I think your point about TKD and crosstraining is a good one, as is crosstraining for any art.

Mitch

[[T][K][D]]

because tkd is a self defense art rather than a full on offensive art like MT and so on..i tend to use kicks to fend off the attacker and then go in for the kill (not literally :)) with fists and knees. And yes, this is a result of tkd being effective and a very angry angry boi...haha

[Slindsay]

I think that TKD practitioners need to spend less time defending there art simply because people outside of the art are attacking it. People here are quite happy to admit in the TKD forum that there are a lot of bad schools out there making false claims but when an outside points this out it's TKD bashing.

[neryo_tkd]

in every art there are bad schools and nobody can tell me that that is not true. the most important thing is that everyone is happy at their school.

[Nick K]

train the way you want to use your tkd for.
taekwon!

Just about the best comment on MAP ever.

[Alexander]

Is Tae Kwon Do really effective. I have taken Tae Kwon Do for a long time now, and i really thing waht they have tought be wasn't effective. It is impposible to use high section block, inner block, outer block on the streets.

yes i agree the punches and kicks do help, but really, thats it. Maybe it's just my school, but i really think Tae Kwon Do isn't that effective. Now I take Kung Fu and i find it is much better. What do you guys think of Tae Kwon Do?
Someone from the club I go to was attacked by three guys. He knocked them out and put one in a coma.

But then... we train hard. I've walked into a few other clubs as 4th gup and floored 2nd dans in a few seconds because of the difference in the intensity of training.

By the way - if blocks don't work pehaps they are not blocks. Think of it as pulling a guy towards you and smashing their neck with your forearm.

[Jackie Li]

I can't believe this thread is still alive. I posted this a long time ago, my thoughts are a lot different on Tae Kwon Do now.

[[T][K][D]]

I think that TKD practitioners need to spend less time defending there art simply because people outside of the art are attacking it. People here are quite happy to admit in the TKD forum that there are a lot of bad schools out there making false claims but when an outside points this out it's TKD bashing.

The reason why we defend tkd is because we dont like tkd being given a bad name simply because other MAist believe that their MA is alot more effective and so on. Some people would go even further because TKD is also the national sport of Korea and is rather attatched to Korean culture. So how about people spen less time abusing tkd :D

[Faminedynasty]

I can see why people would take pride in their art and defend it, of course. But personally, it's fine with me if people assume I'm not an effective fighter and underestimate me.

[Plato]

[K][D]']The reason why we defend tkd is because we dont like tkd being given a bad name simply because other MAist believe that their MA is alot more effective and so on. Some people would go even further because TKD is also the national sport of Korea and is rather attatched to Korean culture. So how about people spen less time abusing tkd :D

Agreed - well said!


Plato

[Slindsay]

[K][D]']The reason why we defend tkd is because we dont like tkd being given a bad name simply because other MAist believe that their MA is alot more effective and so on. Some people would go even further because TKD is also the national sport of Korea and is rather attatched to Korean culture. So how about people spen less time abusing tkd :D

Tyhe problem is that there really are a LOT of bad Dojo's out there, I mean I did TKD for three years and only trained at one school that I found to be particulalry good out of 4 I trained at. I mean I consider one entire organisation here in England to be "bad" (Not saying all the schools under them are bad schools, but the grading syllabus and the seminars run by top guys where things I did not agree with.) In America there seems to be a plague of the places from what I here as well.

[Macca]

First off...as many of you have heard this before: 'it is the fighter not the Martial Art'...self-defence depends a lot on how much emphasise and hard work you put in your training...

If Taekwondo was so in-effective then how comes it is one of the world's most popular MA?

It is stupid on how much Taekwondo gets flamed on this thread. Yes its a good MA....if you know its strengths and weaknesses (vulnerabilities). To back up the point i just made, we could use the example of when in a street fight, not getting to close to the opponent - keeping him at distance with our well-trained taekwondo kicks (thats OUR strength), as you say, yeah taekwondo doesnt put a lot of emphasise on punches, so we can use that as a weakness, so when in a street fight dont get too close for a punch-up as it is a weak area in a Taekwondoist's arsenal.

Macca :)

[kwang gae]

Originally posted by Macca doesnt put a lot of emphasise on punches, so we can use that as a weakness, so when in a street fight dont get too close for a punch-up as it is a weak area in a Taekwondoist's arsenal.

That is very true Macca, but it's strange when you think about it. In ITF there are only hand techniques until you get to the third pattern, not a single kick!

I know that those of us in TKD love our kicks, but we have to remember to train for hand fighting as well. I've had the pleasure of training with the legendary Bill "Superfoot" Wallace a couple times, and while he's famous for his kicks, he introduced me to the art of the jab, cross, hook and uppercut punch.

By practicing those techniqes religiously the TKD artist can approach the level of a boxer, because those are the basic punches in that sport. Very helpful in a street confrontation.

[Sedvan]

Okay, I've been in taekwondo for nearly 7 years, and back when i was younger i would get beat on in school, one time i fought back, but somtimes i'd have problems when they caught my leg after i atempted to kick them, sure that gave me the ability to punch and elbow, but what are some good techniques to combat that?

I cross train, in no specific martial art besides TKD at the moment, and i want to learn Panther, but i cant find the schools.

[kwang gae]

Okay, I've been in taekwondo for nearly 7 years, and back when i was younger i would get beat on in school, one time i fought back, but somtimes i'd have problems when they caught my leg after i atempted to kick them, sure that gave me the ability to punch and elbow, but what are some good techniques to combat that?

Re-chambering the kick as fast, or faster than the kick is thrown. Practicing fast re-chambers will help keep from getting your leg trapped. Yes there is a loss in power from fast rechambers, because you don't have the nice follow through, which is why you should go for soft targets like the groin.

Practice combinations of kick-punch-elbow, kick-punch-reverse punch, etc. to help with finishing off an attacker.

Disclaimer!! Always avoid a fight whenever possible. Fighting in school can get you expelled, or worse. Fight as a last resort, but fight to win.

[Leo_E_49]

My advice:

1. Bend your knee of your caught leg immediately, without this you can't even touch your aggressor.
2. Grab behind your aggressor's head or neck with the hand OPPOSITE your bent knee. (The hand is important, do not use the hand on the same side as your bent knee) In this case if your opponent sweeps you, you can pull them face-first into the ground with you, without this head control, you can almost guarantee you're going to the ground.
3. Punch or elbow their head on the same side as your caught knee. This buys you time and is important for 2 reasons. Firstly this will cause your aggressor a large amount of pain and will make any consideration but stopping the pain of secondary importance and secondly and more importantly, your aggressor can not defend this side of their head without letting go of your leg.
4. When your aggressor releases or loosens their grip on your leg to defend their head, push down sharply with your knee and grab their arm with your free hand and pull it away from your leg.
5. DO NOT release your grip on your aggressors head and DO NOT kick again until you have some distance from them. Keep pounding their head in an attempt to daze them and attempt to disengage and escape when possible.

This is intended for striking MAists with no grappling experience. While the best preparation for this situation is to cross train in grappling, I respect that some of you may not wish to.

An alternative not-so-safe technique which can be used against an untrained grappler:
http://www.savateaustralia.com/Savate%20Essays/how%20french%20men%20box.htm

[Slindsay]

Firstly, dont throw kicks where there hands are or above them, makes them dead easy to catch becaus theyy just have to bend the elbow.

Second, me personally, I wouldnt throw a kick without first making sure the guy is going backwards so dont throw kicks without punching. Personally I feel hands are much more important than feet for self defence because your feet cxan only be as good as your hands let them be :D

If your kick is caught, first see where it is caught, unless they have you by the foot then they may have problems holding your leg.

Finally clinch it up, hit em with elbows and punches and try to move your leg further into their grip so you can pull it free by putting your weight on it, if you go down make sure you pull guard on them.

[tkd_rules]

even though i do tkd i have done a bit of boxing and i am also doing win chun and kempo and i find i dont use the tkd locks i would use the kempo or the win chun blocks and i would punch like a boxer and use the tkd kicks.

[KonRyuu]

I have taken TKD for 9 years, is it effective? NO! you might get a good kick in, but if they have any kind of pain threshold, they'll just come right back at you, a boxer could easily defeat a TKD ist, maybe not a master, but Muhammad Ali sure as hell could of. TKD is just a series of fancy kicks that don't work on the street. Try using a high block or low block on the street with a flurry of punches/kicks/elbows and tackles, coming at you all at once, you'll be obliterated, it's proven that evasional techniques work much better than trying to block something that shoots out real fast and snaps back real fast, you can't realistically grab someone's arm quick enough, unless you happen to get lucky, 9 times out of 10...you won't, I use nothing from TKD other than......Side kicks, which are good for knocking your opponent on their ass for a second, be a fast runner and jump on top of them real quick before they get up, you'd have better luck taking boxing and becoming a fast puncher, throw a flurry of punches hard and fast in a street fight, throw the first punch and you have a much better chance than using TKD. Not knocking TKD, I mean like I said, did it for 9 years. But we don't want to give kids the wrong ideas and let them get obliterated on the street or in school do we?

[neryo_tkd]

I have taken TKD for 9 years, is it effective? NO! you might get a good kick in, but if they have any kind of pain threshold, they'll just come right back at you, a boxer could easily defeat a TKD ist, maybe not a master, but Muhammad Ali sure as hell could of. TKD is just a series of fancy kicks that don't work on the street. Try using a high block or low block on the street with a flurry of punches/kicks/elbows and tackles, coming at you all at once, you'll be obliterated, it's proven that evasional techniques work much better than trying to block something that shoots out real fast and snaps back real fast, you can't realistically grab someone's arm quick enough, unless you happen to get lucky, 9 times out of 10...you won't, I use nothing from TKD other than......Side kicks, which are good for knocking your opponent on their ass for a second, be a fast runner and jump on top of them real quick before they get up, you'd have better luck taking boxing and becoming a fast puncher, throw a flurry of punches hard and fast in a street fight, throw the first punch and you have a much better chance than using TKD. Not knocking TKD, I mean like I said, did it for 9 years. But we don't want to give kids the wrong ideas and let them get obliterated on the street or in school do we?


what a funny post!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[MikeMartial]

I'm going to jump in here and post without reading all the previous posts. Sue me. :)

In regards to the dead horse known as "Is TKD effective...."

I'll direct the jury to exhibit A, Loiseau VS McCarthy, UFC53

For those that have are unfamilar with David Loiseau, he is an established UFC fighter who is known for his explosive striking. A black belt in TKD (what style, I'm unsure), he trains with Georges St. Pierre (who also has explosive striking ability, both hands and feet--thanks to a black belt in kyokushin karate) out of Montreal, Quebec.

During this fight, Loiseau laid a perfectly place spinning back kick to the right upper quadrant of McCarthy's abdomen. Some call it a "liver shot". McCarthy was stopped dead in his tracks, and the look on his face was priceless. IMO, it was a combo of "What the hell was that/OMG I just got hit by a train".

The fight could have been called right there, but Loiseau finished with a jumping knee, knocking his opponent to the ground, and the ref called the fight seconds after that.

Earlier in the round, Loiseau nearly took McCarthy's head clean off with a jumping turning kick, missing by inches.

Although not essentially a "pure" self defense situation, it shows how devistating TKD can be---even on highly trained martial artists.

Is this the norm? Not at all---Loiseau is an exceptional athlete, with some of the best explosive power I've ever seen.

But he makes a clear point for the effectiveness of Tae Kwon Do :D

[TraditionalTKD]

Tae Kwon Do is as effective as you make it. I've known black belts who couldn't beat wet tissue paper with their technique. I've also known black belts who had some of the strongest technique I've ever seen, guys I was literally afraid to fight.
My Instructor defended himself against armed and unarmed thugs and gang members when he practiced in Korea years ago. Obviously it does work.

[neryo_tkd]

Tae Kwon Do is as effective as you make it.

of course. well said, so once again (for all those who missed it the last 5 million times) it's not the art, it's the person.

[TraditionalTKD]

Years ago, when I was a student at our Central Studio, our Head Instructor used to lead basic kicking by saying "I want you to imagine a guy, 6"2", all muscle, in front of you who wants to kill you. You get one chance to use your technique." Perhaps a bit dramatic, but that's the mindset he wanted us to have-you must practice to make your technique effective. Sure, some students had a lazy mentality and couldn't really care less. I always thought "good luck if you ever need to use Tae kwon Do". Myself and the guys I practiced with always practiced with the idea that we had to be able to drop someone with our technique because we'd only get one chance and it had to work. We didn't do it for points.

[Infrazael]

I have taken TKD for 9 years, is it effective? NO! you might get a good kick in, but if they have any kind of pain threshold, they'll just come right back at you, a boxer could easily defeat a TKD ist, maybe not a master, but Muhammad Ali sure as hell could of. TKD is just a series of fancy kicks that don't work on the street. Try using a high block or low block on the street with a flurry of punches/kicks/elbows and tackles, coming at you all at once, you'll be obliterated, it's proven that evasional techniques work much better than trying to block something that shoots out real fast and snaps back real fast, you can't realistically grab someone's arm quick enough, unless you happen to get lucky, 9 times out of 10...you won't, I use nothing from TKD other than......Side kicks, which are good for knocking your opponent on their ass for a second, be a fast runner and jump on top of them real quick before they get up, you'd have better luck taking boxing and becoming a fast puncher, throw a flurry of punches hard and fast in a street fight, throw the first punch and you have a much better chance than using TKD. Not knocking TKD, I mean like I said, did it for 9 years. But we don't want to give kids the wrong ideas and let them get obliterated on the street or in school do we?

Wait. . . . . . didn't you say that Fancy Kicks, Acrobatics, cool Flips, and various other performance-oriented things were necessary in the Shaolin Monk thread you posted in the Kung Fu forums?

If so. . . . what's wrong with TKD having them if you like fancy kicks so much? Apparently you do from the other thread.

[Infrazael]

I'm going to jump in here and post without reading all the previous posts. Sue me. :)

In regards to the dead horse known as "Is TKD effective...."

I'll direct the jury to exhibit A, Loiseau VS McCarthy, UFC53

For those that have are unfamilar with David Loiseau, he is an established UFC fighter who is known for his explosive striking. A black belt in TKD (what style, I'm unsure), he trains with Georges St. Pierre (who also has explosive striking ability, both hands and feet--thanks to a black belt in kyokushin karate) out of Montreal, Quebec.

During this fight, Loiseau laid a perfectly place spinning back kick to the right upper quadrant of McCarthy's abdomen. Some call it a "liver shot". McCarthy was stopped dead in his tracks, and the look on his face was priceless. IMO, it was a combo of "What the hell was that/OMG I just got hit by a train".

The fight could have been called right there, but Loiseau finished with a jumping knee, knocking his opponent to the ground, and the ref called the fight seconds after that.

Earlier in the round, Loiseau nearly took McCarthy's head clean off with a jumping turning kick, missing by inches.

Although not essentially a "pure" self defense situation, it shows how devistating TKD can be---even on highly trained martial artists.

Is this the norm? Not at all---Loiseau is an exceptional athlete, with some of the best explosive power I've ever seen.

But he makes a clear point for the effectiveness of Tae Kwon Do :D

My Wallpaper is a picture of Loiseau doing a flying knee on Tanner in the UFC lol.

[gemtkd]

of course. well said, so once again (for all those who missed it the last 5 million times) it's not the art, it's the person.

Couldn't agree more!!!

[Topher]

of course. well said, so once again (for all those who missed it the last 5 million times) it's not the art, it's the person.
Technically true, but some style just art not ideal for street defence. Some school just dont train effectivly so the "its the person" argument is futile.

[Sedvan]

Elbowing is great. I love to borrow tech's from Gungfu. Such as blocking with the opposite arm (parallel to ribs) while elbowing. I think TKD should use more elbowing.

[TraditionalTKD]

We don't do elbowing in free fighting because of the risk of injuring our partnes. Otherwise, several TKD forms contain elbow strikes. In addition, basic technique emphasizes pulling the elbow to your side to increase the reaction power.

[neryo_tkd]

Technically true, but some style just art not ideal for street defence. Some school just dont train effectivly so the "its the person" argument is futile.


you said: some schools, meaning there are other schools that do train it, again ''it's the person'', either the student or the instructor.

[TraditionalTKD]

Define "train effectively". You can't single out Tae Kwon Do as not being street effective. Any martial art, including tai chi and aikido, can be effective if you use it properly, and vice versa. Does training in CQC or RBSD automatically make you effective at self defense? I don't think so. Does practicing 10 different styles make you more effective at self defense? Highly unlikely.
These approaches may emphasize some useful points (many of which are common sense), but they do not give you an automatic advantage over certain styles. If anything, practicing traditional arts may give you an advantage over some of these so called "Reality" systems because they emphasize things like waist action, power, balance, clear mind, and mental calmness that these systems do not.
I think an advanced tai chi or aikido practitioner would be formidable. And Tae Kwon Do, if done right, can be devastating against an opponent.

[Topher]

We don't do elbowing in free fighting because of the risk of injuring our partnes. Otherwise, several TKD forms contain elbow strikes. In addition, basic technique emphasizes pulling the elbow to your side to increase the reaction power.

The problem here is your need to train elbow strikes against a moveing/resisting opponent. Even a static opponent is better that thin air as your need to get use to various heights, body shapes etc. You find you need to adapt your technique slightly for most people.



you said: some schools, meaning there are other schools that do train it, again ''it's the person'', either the student or the instructor.
Yes but some styles are just better overall for specific aims. You could be the best person in Muay Thai for example, but if you join another style that restricts you or is impractical then you not going to be very good, especial on the street.


Define "train effectively". You can't single out Tae Kwon Do as not being street effective. Any martial art, including tai chi and aikido, can be effective if you use it properly, and vice versa. Does training in CQC or RBSD automatically make you effective at self defense? I don't think so. Does practicing 10 different styles make you more effective at self defense? Highly unlikely.
These approaches may emphasize some useful points (many of which are common sense), but they do not give you an automatic advantage over certain styles. If anything, practicing traditional arts may give you an advantage over some of these so called "Reality" systems because they emphasize things like waist action, power, balance, clear mind, and mental calmness that these systems do not.
I think an advanced tai chi or aikido practitioner would be formidable. And Tae Kwon Do, if done right, can be devastating against an opponent.

I agree TKD can be great, but if you want street defence as your goal then training against an realistic opponent, pad drills and good sparring are especial. Training against co-operative opponents (when your past the learning part), forms and training in thin air are not going to help. That's why i believe you should look for a style that dosn't include stuff that wont help. Some styles in general are more suitable for self defence.

When i say good sparring, i dont just mean full contact i mean sparring and drills that reflect the sort of stuff you would actually do on the street. Technique that is realistic and practical. The contact of the sparring/drill in my eyes wont effect the effectiveness of the actual technique. Of course the more contact the more realism it has but full contact dosn't mean its effective.

[franksv]

Technically true, but some style just art not ideal for street defence. Some school just dont train effectivly so the "its the person" argument is futile.

So are you saying its the style thats flawed or individual schools within the style?

[Faminedynasty]

I have taken TKD for 9 years, is it effective? NO!
Maybe you should have trained harder.

[Slindsay]

So are you saying its the style thats flawed or individual schools within the style?

How do you differentiate? What do you call Taekwondo? I mean the style has it's theory on how to fight and how to train to fight (Maybe what you think of when you think of the style) but if that theory isn't effectively put into practice then whats the point?

To my mind the art of TKD is no more flawed than any other but the fact is there are quite a lot of bad schools out there (From a self defence point of view).

On top of that TKD seems to contain no real live trainning as part of it SD curriculum, indeed in a lot of places that I have seen the curriculum has a separate area for SD and that in itself s-peaks volumes to me. The methods of trainning that are inherent to all TKD schools are patterns and one step sparring and neithger of these are the greatest tools for self defence (And certainly not comprehensive).

Anyway that was a really long reply to a one sentence post but I think the whole concept of st7yles and schools is interesting.

[Topher]

So are you saying its the style thats flawed or individual schools within the style?
I'm saying in general some styles as a whole are better for street defence purely based on its training methods, principles and philosophies etc, but i agree that it comes down to the school, but in general i think you find the schools of some style being better than the schools of other styles.

As i mentioned in a previous post for street defence some stuff won’t help such as always training with co-operative opponents, forms and unrealistic techniques etc, and you will probably find these more in some styles than others so i wouldn't do these styles and expect "street effective".

My experience is in Tang Soo Do and Wing Chun but for the street Wing Chun directly translates and from my experience is in general the more suitable of the two - not just because it better, but because the fundamental training methods and techniques suite the street. TKD for example as a kicking style will emphasis kicks (in general) which are not always safe or useful, you will also find deep stances that are not efficient, and training methods and techniques that don’t translate well to the street. Other parts like forms and training techniques in thin air don’t translate well either.

This is all in general so i would advise someone to check out the school(s) if they were interested but from my point of view when street defence is the aim you want to train with that in mind, not "well you just have to adapt it for the street" or “we train low kicks and elbows in the forms”, it should be trained in the "adapted" or street effective way to begin with.

[mattnz]

Deep stances!?!?!?! TKD has some of the shallowest stances around! At least the way I'm taught... But that is just digging into that can of worms agian...

[Slindsay]

Deep stances!?!?!?! TKD has some of the shallowest stances around! At least the way I'm taught... But that is just digging into that can of worms agian...

Long stance, horse riding stance, back stance, cat stance? The only shallow stances I can think of are walking stance and maybe fighting stance if thats separate from the other stances.

[Topher]

^^ What Slindsay said.

Also one problem with TKD one step sparring (which many say is the self defence element) is that it is done in a deep/long stance (what ever you call it) which serves no propose at all for the street.

[franksv]

Just curious,what criteria is there for one to comment on what is good or bad for the street?Does it take one,six,twelve,one hundred,violent encounters under your belt to be an expert?Maybe service in a war?Time in a maximum security prison?Maybe a certian color belt in a martial art?Maybe a certian amount of time in a martial art?There seems to be a number of people that like to comment about whats good for the "real" situations.Most folks that do a lot of talking on subjects like these are good at just that,talking.So if you are one the resident street fighting/violence experts,please share with us what makes you qualified to be giving out advice on what works and what does not on the "street".I would really like to know what experiences one might have had to think they are a good source for advice on this subject.

[Slindsay]

Just curious,what criteria is there for one to comment on what is good or bad for the street?Does it take one,six,twelve,one hundred,violent encounters under your belt to be an expert?Maybe service in a war?Time in a maximum security prison?Maybe a certian color belt in a martial art?Maybe a certian amount of time in a martial art?There seems to be a number of people that like to comment about whats good for the "real" situations.Most folks that do a lot of talking on subjects like these are good at just that,talking.So if you are one the resident street fighting/violence experts,please share with us what makes you qualified to be giving out advice on what works and what does not on the "street".I would really like to know what experiences one might have had to think they are a good source for advice on this subject.

Common sense, seeing a few fights, common sense, watching some UFC fights, common sense, do a few different Martial Arts, common sense, go to a few competitions, common sense...

[franksv]

I m not trying to be a jerk here,its just that being in many nasty fights when I was young,the few things I have learned are.

1.Fights are VERY,VERY unpredictable.
2.Fights are ugly,people can really,really get hurt.
3.No style can be better than the best most talked about style.
4.Some folks are just natural born fighters with a killer instinct and aggresive nature to match.
5.Being humble will help to keep out of fights.

Even though I have seen my fair share of fights(in my younger days),I do not feel I have the experience to comment on what is good for the "street".I was just wondering what made other folks think they had the knowledge to give advice.

Frank

[kwang gae]

Hello... did everyone skip over MikeMartials post?

I'll direct the jury to exhibit A, Loiseau VS McCarthy, UFC53

For those that have are unfamilar with David Loiseau, he is an established UFC fighter who is known for his explosive striking. A black belt in TKD (what style, I'm unsure), he trains with Georges St. Pierre (who also has explosive striking ability, both hands and feet--thanks to a black belt in kyokushin karate) out of Montreal, Quebec.

During this fight, Loiseau laid a perfectly place spinning back kick to the right upper quadrant of McCarthy's abdomen. Some call it a "liver shot". McCarthy was stopped dead in his tracks, and the look on his face was priceless. IMO, it was a combo of "What the hell was that/OMG I just got hit by a train".
Not convinced? Hell even Slindsay, (no defender of TKD), says he based his opinion of the effectiveness of TKD on the street based on "... common sense, watching some UFC fights..." Here's some of both.

Bottom line: yes TKD can be very good on the street, IMO. Does that mean everyone who studies TKD can hold their own with a 6'2" angry biker? No, but then so what? I, for one, use common sense to avoid those situations, (I don't drink in biker bars for example), and have been successful for 44+ years now. :D

[franksv]

Hello... did everyone skip over MikeMartials post?


Not convinced? Hell even Slindsay, (no defender of TKD), says he based his opinion of the effectiveness of TKD on the street based on "... common sense, watching some UFC fights..." Here's some of both.

Bottom line: yes TKD can be very good on the street, IMO. Does that mean everyone who studies TKD can hold their own with a 6'2" angry biker? No, but then so what? I, for one, use common sense to avoid those situations, (I don't drink in biker bars for example), and have been successful for 44+ years now. :D

My whole point,never dismiss someone because they do tkd(or any style).Never underestimate someone who does not practice a martial art(he may not have to).There are paper tigers and real tigers in every style,even in no style folks.

[Cosmo Kramer]

im sure if someone is good at it, then it would be just like any art. i know that i wouldnt want to be in a fight with any of the masters i have met, with great speed power and accuracy those kicks could prob take your head right off. the biggest prob with tkd is that it focuses so much on kicking that if you are ever in a situation where you need to use your hands or get out of a hold you could be in trouble.

[MikeMartial]

There are paper tigers and real tigers in every style,even in no style folks.

I like that quote.....paper tigers, hehe. :D

[franksv]

im sure if someone is good at it, then it would be just like any art. i know that i wouldnt want to be in a fight with any of the masters i have met, with great speed power and accuracy those kicks could prob take your head right off. the biggest prob with tkd is that it focuses so much on kicking that if you are ever in a situation where you need to use your hands or get out of a hold you could be in trouble.

I never really got this argument.I mean sure at class many schools may focus on the kicks but every school teaches the hand techniques too.Any tkd stylist can go home and drill their hands an hour everyday.There are so many hand techniques in the tkd forms(atleast in the palgwe forms)that it makes me laugh when people say tkd has no hands.I find it funny that the only 3 kicks in the palgwe forms are front,side and cresent and there are not too many of these kicks in the palgwe forms(They are mostly hands).Its not tkd,its how its trained.

[Topher]

Just curious,what criteria is there for one to comment on what is good or bad for the street?Does it take one,six,twelve,one hundred,violent encounters under your belt to be an expert?Maybe service in a war?Time in a maximum security prison?Maybe a certian color belt in a martial art?Maybe a certian amount of time in a martial art?There seems to be a number of people that like to comment about whats good for the "real" situations.Most folks that do a lot of talking on subjects like these are good at just that,talking.So if you are one the resident street fighting/violence experts,please share with us what makes you qualified to be giving out advice on what works and what does not on the "street".I would really like to know what experiences one might have had to think they are a good source for advice on this subject.

As Slindsy said – common sense. I mean how do forms for example help you defend yourself. And some of the techniques and methods of training are quite questionable. I believe that if the stuff could be trained with a live opponent then it would, but usually this dosn't happen. Coincidence?

Some stuff in the martial arts taught as self defence will obviously not work with a resistant, live opponents who is seriously trying to hurt you. You only have to observe the nature of fighting, whether first hand or on video to see just how useless some stuff is.

Anything I say I obviously what i believe to be true from my perspective/experience. However I understand that every culture/country/area might require a different approach.

[Topher]

I never really got this argument.I mean sure at class many schools may focus on the kicks but every school teaches the hand techniques too.Any tkd stylist can go home and drill their hands an hour everyday.There are so many hand techniques in the tkd forms(atleast in the palgwe forms)that it makes me laugh when people say tkd has no hands.I find it funny that the only 3 kicks in the palgwe forms are front,side and cresent and there are not too many of these kicks in the palgwe forms(They are mostly hands).Its not tkd,its how its trained.

As i mentioned before, since when will forms help you defence yourself? What your need to be doing is training your punches against an opponent, preferably a realistic one.

A while back when we were discussing low kicks someone claims that TKD didn't do them. A TKD guy then stated: "well we do train low kicks in the forms". That wont help either.

[TraditionalTKD]

Why does a boxer practice shadowboxing? Why does any athlete consciously make themselves aware of what they look like while practicing techniques?

Forms are not the be all-end all of tae kwon Do, the main reason for our existence, or our primary training aid. They give us a method to teach our body how to correctly execute technique before we practice actually applying it. It is called "Form" for a reason-so that we may train our body in how it is supposed to look while doing something.

[littlebadboy]

Why does a boxer practice shadowboxing? Why does any athlete consciously make themselves aware of what they look like while practicing techniques?

Forms are not the be all-end all of tae kwon Do, the main reason for our existence, or our primary training aid. They give us a method to teach our body how to correctly execute technique before we practice actually applying it. It is called "Form" for a reason-so that we may train our body in how it is supposed to look while doing something.
Perfectly explained! Hats off to you!

I love forms, you guys should appreciate it too.

[neryo_tkd]

^^ What Slindsay said.

Also one problem with TKD one step sparring (which many say is the self defence element) is that it is done in a deep/long stance (what ever you call it) which serves no propose at all for the street.


deep stance? maybe in your schools guys, but not here. so again, it's not the style, it's the person.


the biggest prob with tkd is that it focuses so much on kicking that if you are ever in a situation where you need to use your hands or get out of a hold you could be in trouble.

let's not mix sport TKD and TKD here, ok? and i'm going to say it once again, it's not the style, it's the person. last week for example we had one of our training sessions during which we only practice hands, not legs involved, sometimes we do a combination of both, sometimes, something different. let's not generalise.

[franksv]

Why does a boxer practice shadowboxing? Why does any athlete consciously make themselves aware of what they look like while practicing techniques?

Forms are not the be all-end all of tae kwon Do, the main reason for our existence, or our primary training aid. They give us a method to teach our body how to correctly execute technique before we practice actually applying it. It is called "Form" for a reason-so that we may train our body in how it is supposed to look while doing something.

Well said.I can't speak for the rest of the tkd folks here but I have taken many great moves from the forms and practice them in my drill routine and also in full contact sparring in our unoffcial,backyard/garage club.I must say I also dig the forms,don't know why,just a great way to end my practice sessions.

[wazzabi]

i think tae kwon do guys don't spend enough time practicing the moves from their forms, like the elbow and open hand strikes. all they do is practice to point spar, which is full of rules, and many of these other strikes in the forms are thrown out the window. i think too many tae kwon do schools put too much emphasis on tournament sparring, rather than self defense. they actually teach a modified version of tae kwon do to the south korean military, which has most of the elements of tae kwon do, they just strike more vital parts of the body, and use harder parts of the foot to strike, (ie heel instead of the back of the foot). more tae kwon do schools need to do this if they want their martial art to be street effective.

[Topher]

Why does a boxer practice shadowboxing? Why does any athlete consciously make themselves aware of what they look like while practicing techniques?

Forms are not the be all-end all of tae kwon Do, the main reason for our existence, or our primary training aid. They give us a method to teach our body how to correctly execute technique before we practice actually applying it. It is called "Form" for a reason-so that we may train our body in how it is supposed to look while doing something.

In my eyes the way to correctly execute a technique in a form won’t really help for self defence.

I’ve got nothing against forms in general (I used to do them myself) just as long your honest with their usefulness in self defence. If someone wants to get into martial arts to be able to defend themselves I don’t think a style where you spend time dedicated to forms is the best way to go as your wasting training time. I don’t really see a direct relation in the way techniques are practiced in the forms to the various self defence drills/or sparring. It appears to actually be counter-productive.

The same goes for one step sparring… nothing against the principle of the drill (I actually think it’s very good), just the method in which it’s trained. If you cannot perform the techniques used on one step sparring in say, sparring, or at least with some resistance and realism how can you expect to perform in a real fight?

[Topher]

deep stance? maybe in your schools guys, but not here. so again, it's not the style, it's the person.
So if you wanted to to a technique diffrent to the way your school taught it would you be allowed? If you wanted to changed your stance could you? By your logic its up to the person, in which case what is the syllubus there for.

Some criteria is spread across the whole style (such as forms or one step sparring etc) so yes, in many cases it is the style. Each person dosn't have free reign over what they do, or do they?

[Thomas]

So if you wanted to to a technique diffrent to the way your school taught it would you be allowed? If you wanted to changed your stance could you? By your logic its up to the person, in which case what is the syllubus there for.

Some criteria is spread across the whole style (such as forms or one step sparring etc) so yes, in many cases it is the style. Each person dosn't have free reign over what they do, or do they?

You bring up great points. For us, the answer is "yes and no".
On a basic level, and for students up to 1st dan level, we expect them to use the skills, tactics and techniques we teach in order to provide a good foundation. From there, after 1st dan, there is a lot more room for experimentation, cross training, and exploration to see what you need to do to build something on this foundation that works for you.

As you mentioned, there are elements of the "style" or "art" that remain wherever you practice it... and these elements are codified in our forms, step sparring, self defence, tactics, and philosophy. These are the parts that students have to build from (although there are more parts available from other sources, if you want). As students, the process of growing from white belt to black belt involved learning how to nput these together. From there, in my opinion, there needs to be opportunities to try it out and to make changes that will fit your needs.

For me personally, I am in a position to make changes. As a "senior instructor" at my school I do a lot of teaching and a lot of curriculum devlopment/alignment. I have a lot of latitude in trying out new things, changing up the curriculum a bit and so on, all under the watchful eyes of my instructor. I can't really change anything that the WTF or Kukkiwon does for overall requirements but I can see TKD students out in the world with both the requirements that make TKD what it is plus a bit of personalization of the style.

Check out http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10787&page=1&pp=15 for ideas

[Topher]

Good reply :)

You bring up great points. For us, the answer is "yes and no".
On a basic level, and for students up to 1st dan level, we expect them to use the skills, tactics and techniques we teach in order to provide a good foundation. From there, after 1st dan, there is a lot more room for experimentation, cross training, and exploration to see what you need to do to build something on this foundation that works for you.

I guess this is one of the point i disagree on as although i expect there to be structure to the system, i dont expect a student to have to wait the 4 or 5 years to black belt before they can start to cross train, experiment and explore etc. I see experimentation and exploration as an important part of the path to black belt. Such things a body shape, height and other differences/limitations effect people so i like the freedom i have in my style to adapt and experiment with my training from an early stage, while still keeping the syllabus at the core to come degree. I think it would be pointless and harder to have to learn a way of doing something which bears no use because its apart of the system then spend time trying to unlearn it when your free to actually do so.

That said, in my Wing Chun training we dont really have set techniques to do. Yes there are some standard drills, techniques and combos etc, but my instructor(s) and even students are free to and do "invent" new ways of performing a drill or technique and so on.


As you mentioned, there are elements of the "style" or "art" that remain wherever you practice it... and these elements are codified in our forms, step sparring, self defence, tactics, and philosophy. These are the parts that students have to build from (although there are more parts available from other sources, if you want). As students, the process of growing from white belt to black belt involved learning how to nput these together. From there, in my opinion, there needs to be opportunities to try it out and to make changes that will fit your needs.
I think here i dont see the need to "codify" them in the first place. I believe the realistic way they intend to be used on the street should be the way there trained. What is the point in learning something with the intention of self defence, only to then have to adapt it for self defence after already learning it.

As i've mentioned before, i dont see a problem with some of the drills or techniques, just the method in which there trained. One step sparring comes to mind here.

For me personally, I am in a position to make changes. As a "senior instructor" at my school I do a lot of teaching and a lot of curriculum devlopment/alignment. I have a lot of latitude in trying out new things, changing up the curriculum a bit and so on, all under the watchful eyes of my instructor. I can't really change anything that the WTF or Kukkiwon does for overall requirements but I can see TKD students out in the world with both the requirements that make TKD what it is plus a bit of personalization of the style.

Check out http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10787&page=1&pp=15 for ideas[/QUOTE]

It's good that you do this. I think my overall point was students having to do something because the organisations says it has to be done, which it really serves little or no purpose for street defence.

[Thomas]

I guess this is one of the point i disagree on as although i expect there to be structure to the system, i dont expect a student to have to wait the 4 or 5 years to black belt before they can start to cross train, experiment and explore etc. I see experimentation and exploration as an important part of the path to black belt. Such things a body shape, height and other differences/limitations effect people so i like the freedom i have in my style to adapt and experiment with my training from an early stage, while still keeping the syllabus at the core to come degree. I think it would be pointless and harder to have to learn a way of doing something which bears no use because its apart of the system then spend time trying to unlearn it when your free to actually do so.
The 3-5 years "wait time" we find helps to get a student a grounded foundation in the art. Before you can cross train, you should have something to start with... from basic strikes/kicks to footwork, to breathing to awareness/avoidance skills and so on. We personally feel that it is easier to teach this foundation within one system to prevent distractions and ensure it gets done. Also the first few months serve to weed out the unserious, the lazy, the dangerous, and so on.
Of course, as you mention, there needs to be a bit of flexibility in there, such as allowing for variations based on age, size, ability, etc and there should be rooom to take a look at other styles and see how they do it. We encourage attending seminars, chekcing out videos and short term exposure to ther systems but we prefer that a more in-depth exploration wait until you have the basics down. It'll also make it easier to take new stuff and graft it onto a foundation if you already have a foundation.


That said, in my Wing Chun training we dont really have set techniques to do. Yes there are some standard drills, techniques and combos etc, but my instructor(s) and even students are free to and do "invent" new ways of performing a drill or technique and so on.
But. I'll bet that if you lok at the way the basic drills, techniques, and combos are structured you'll see that they are systematically teaching you the "operating system" of your style which will dictate how you combine and deploy all future and past training that you get. The operating system is the root philosophy of the art that ties it all together... and usually students don't even realize that it's there until they develop more and start applying new things using the core philosophy.


I think here i dont see the need to "codify" them in the first place. I believe the realistic way they intend to be used on the street should be the way there trained. What is the point in learning something for self defence, only to then have to adapt it for self defence after already learning it.

You cannot replicate the street in your class no matter how hard you try. All you can do is making possible simulations of varying degrees of difficulty. Some drills are going to be necessarily "unreal", especially for inroducing concepts and techniques. As you add more realism you should be able to see whther it will work or not. But, no matter how 'real" you train, there will always be "codification", especially in terms of role playing, pulling srikes, controled techniques, terrain, clothing, weapons, weather, and so on.

Codification also changes the material from the concrete to the abstract, and hopefully encourages higher level thinking and application.

As i've mentioned before, i dont see a problem with some of the drills or techniques, just the method in which there trained. One step sparring comes to mind here.
I agree... but there are ways to use step sparring as an effective training tool. For example, starting it off slow and predictable lets students try out the technique, then you add speed and resistance, then you add other atacks/reactions and keep changing it. Students go from the expected and slow to the unexpected and faster. Yes, some schools just do the requirments and move on... hopefully others use them to their advantage.

Personally I look at step sparring much like strikers look at combos... we string some technqiues together, try them out slow and speed them up to see if they "work".


It's good that you do this. I think my overall point was students having to do something because the organisations says it has to be done, which it really serves little or no purpose for street defence.
I agree. At the same time, some organizations will have requirements and if you want to train or accept rank from them, you do it (it's that way in life and jobs, too!)... in my opinion the best thing to do is to use the requirements as best you can and whatever else you need to.

[Topher]

The 3-5 years "wait time" we find helps to get a student a grounded foundation in the art. Before you can cross train, you should have something to start with... from basic strikes/kicks to footwork, to breathing to awareness/avoidance skills and so on. We personally feel that it is easier to teach this foundation within one system to prevent distractions and ensure it gets done. Also the first few months serve to weed out the unserious, the lazy, the dangerous, and so on.
Of course, as you mention, there needs to be a bit of flexibility in there, such as allowing for variations based on age, size, ability, etc and there should be rooom to take a look at other styles and see how they do it. We encourage attending seminars, chekcing out videos and short term exposure to ther systems...
I doubt it takes years to get a grounded foundation. I picked up the basics in Wing Chun (and Tang Soo Do) relatively quick. I find it should only take months or about one year to actually pick it up. From then it just a matter of getting better.

...but we prefer that a more in-depth exploration wait until you have the basics down. It'll also make it easier to take new stuff and graft it onto a foundation if you already have a foundation.
I think that is a matter for each person as I’ve known some people who have struggled with two styles (even when being a black belt in the original style). I on the other hand, still being a beginner in both styles, never found it confusing switching between the two. I believe if you want to cross train is worth trying another style, if its too confusing or hard pick the one you prefer. That way you can say you’ve tried. I’d hate to get so grounded to a style it becomes so difficult to later adapt to other styles.


But. I'll bet that if you lok at the way the basic drills, techniques, and combos are structured you'll see that they are systematically teaching you the "operating system" of your style which will dictate how you combine and deploy all future and past training that you get. The operating system is the root philosophy of the art that ties it all together... and usually students don't even realize that it's there until they develop more and start applying new things using the core philosophy.
I agree, but as I said it shouldn’t take years to pick up the “operating system.” In my eyes you should be introduced and pick up the fundamentals of the system and then you work with them, experiment/explore, and get good. However by your logic you keep learning the fundamental into black belt level, so it then takes years before you can even start to progress passed the core part of the system.

Allowing experimentation at this stage helps them work out which parts of the “operating system” works better for them and if it needs adapting in any way. You don’t want to spend years learn something, then experiment some years later only to find you’ve discovered a better way/method and essentially wasted time on mastering the original, and now defunct way/method. Self defence systems should be usable ASAP, but if it takes a TKD person years and years before they can get to a level where they are proficient I don’t see that as a good thing.

You cannot replicate the street in your class no matter how hard you try. All you can do is making possible simulations of varying degrees of difficulty. Some drills are going to be necessarily "unreal", especially for inroducing concepts and techniques. As you add more realism you should be able to see whther it will work or not. But, no matter how 'real" you train, there will always be "codification", especially in terms of role playing, pulling srikes, controled techniques, terrain, clothing, weapons, weather, and so on.

Codification also changes the material from the concrete to the abstract, and hopefully encourages higher level thinking and application.
I agree you cannot truly replicate the street but you can replicate many of the aspects and train in a 'street level' way which is directly useful, effective and efficient such as training against alive opponents, someone who provides realistic attacks and responses which you could expect in a real fight such as hooks, headlocks, straights, knees…etc.

I fully expect people to be introduced and start with co-operation and so on, but as soon as the student is capable of working in a realistic matter do so. Although this shouldn't be rushed, the quicker this happens the better.

I agree... but there are ways to use step sparring as an effective training tool. For example, starting it off slow and predictable lets students try out the technique, then you add speed and resistance, then you add other atacks/reactions and keep changing it. Students go from the expected and slow to the unexpected and faster. Yes, some schools just do the requirments and move on... hopefully others use them to their advantage.

Personally I look at step sparring much like strikers look at combos... we string some technqiues together, try them out slow and speed them up to see if they "work".
One of the problems I see with one step sparring is for example you typically go back into a long/deep stance and ki hap to signal your ready to attack. Then your opponent ki haps to signal they there ready to be attack. Then the attacker comes forward with a punch (maybe in a long stance, and usually not making any contact), leaves it there and the opponents “defends” themselves (possibly in a horse stance). I highly doubt you’ll come across many of the “attacks” used and I doubt many of the techniques used to defend against them will actually work in a street enviroment.

I’ve seen this method trained well into the black belt levels.

That said, I believe the concept of feeding someone a realistic (and possibly random) street level attack, then defending with a realistic street level technique is one of the best drills for self defence. I advocate you start off slow but what I find in my training is there is a clear progression in realism and skill.

[neryo_tkd]

So if you wanted to to a technique diffrent to the way your school taught it would you be allowed? If you wanted to changed your stance could you? By your logic its up to the person, in which case what is the syllubus there for.

Some criteria is spread across the whole style (such as forms or one step sparring etc) so yes, in many cases it is the style. Each person dosn't have free reign over what they do, or do they?


yes, there is a syllabus, but it's up to the instructor how s/he'll do it. just like in school. teachers have a program but not every teacher will see it through in the same way.

P.S. avoid posting in a row. that's why the edit button exists.

[Thomas]

Good points and discussion... I imagine our philosophies are fairly similar but it's tough to wrap generalizations around "shades of gray"... different people learn differently.
I doubt it takes years to get a grounded foundation. I picked up the basics in Wing Chun (and Tang Soo Do) relatively quick. I find it should only take months or about one year to actually pick it up. From then it just a matter of getting better.
It depends on what the system is. Personally I think the whole "take a person and give them just the 'essentials' and you can produce a 'fighter' is absolutely true." To teach someone a basic operating system that works isn't really that hard, if you tailor the curriculum and goals to it.

The problem lies with creating a system that will be flexible enough to accomodate all of the students (with variations for each) and to accomodate the various levels of conflict and the various goals you have.

The operating system we teach isn't "just for self defence effectiveness". We are also looking to teach people awarenss, avoidance, de-escalation, transition of techniques according to different levels of force and the moral and legal concerns. Sure, teaching someone to kick, punch and choke doesn't take much and with practice they can transition pretty well. But add the depth of levels of responsibilities and it gets tougher.

On the basic level, "martial arts" may be about fighting, but for modern day students, learning an archaic system of hand-to-hand is not nearly as important as learning the art side of being a responsible, moral, and ethical martial artist. The operating system takes years to develop and perfect because you are always digging deeper and deeper into who you are, how your respond, and what (and why) you do.

Also, different people learn at different paces. If you can master the basic foundation of Tang Soo Do and Wing Chun within a year, I am impressed. Many of my students could not.

If you want to have an operating system that can handle "all ranges" of combat (popular thing nowadays), you have to look at the components: how long to learn a good level of striking? How long for clinching? How long for grappling? etc. Then you have to learn how to tie all of those things together (transitions) and then you have to teach students to tie that to awareness, avoidance, levels of force, and legalities. How long should that take?


I think that is a matter for each person as I’ve known some people who have struggled with two styles (even when being a black belt in the original style). I on the other hand, still being a beginner in both styles, never found it confusing switching between the two. I believe if you want to cross train is worth trying another style, if its too confusing or hard pick the one you prefer. That way you can say you’ve tried. I’d hate to get so grounded to a style it becomes so difficult to later adapt to other styles.
Difference in philosophies. Ultimately I contend that a person should spend a lot of time with one good instructor and learn one basic style in a fairly deep way, studying the what's, how's and why's that tie it together. Then go look at other styles. I imagine it can be done otherwise but in my experience, I like our way a bit better.

I agree, but as I said it shouldn’t take years to pick up the “operating system.” In my eyes you should be introduced and pick up the fundamentals of the system and then you work with them, experiment/explore, and get good. However by your logic you keep learning the fundamental into black belt level, so it then takes years before you can even start to progress passed the core part of the system.
Generally "black belt" is the level where you "have mastered the basic of the art", and can tie the physical elements of the art to the movement, mentality, and philosophy of the art. 1st dan just means you now have the tools to make the art "your own".

Might seem like a long time, and many drop out, but in my experience it takes a while for students to put everything together and realy get a handle on the art.

Allowing experimentation at this stage helps them work out which parts of the “operating system” works better for them and if it needs adapting in any way. You don’t want to spend years learn something, then experiment some years later only to find you’ve discovered a better way/method and essentially wasted time on mastering the original, and now defunct way/method. Self defence systems should be usable ASAP, but if it takes a TKD person years and years before they can get to a level where they are proficient I don’t see that as a good thing.

Hopefully the flexibility that you learn in the system will help you learn how to evaluate, change, and adapt your art to fit your needs, whatever they are.

One of the problems I see with one step sparring is for example you typically go back into a long/deep stance and ki hap to signal your ready to attack. Then your opponent ki haps to signal they there ready to be attack. Then the attacker comes forward with a punch (maybe in a long stance, and usually not making any contact), leaves it there and the opponents “defends” themselves (possibly in a horse stance). I highly doubt you’ll come across many of the “attacks” used and I doubt many of the techniques used to defend against them will actually work in a street enviroment.
That's usually the basic way of starting them, and yes, it's pretty unrealistic. That's why they should progress to be working them out of a fighting stance, against punches/grabs/reverse punches/jabs/etc, and then take them to a faster and faster pace. Only training them in the front stance with the kihaps is pretty silly without a plan to increase the realism.

[Topher]

It depends on what the system is. Personally I think the whole "take a person and give them just the 'essentials' and you can produce a 'fighter' is absolutely true." To teach someone a basic operating system that works isn't really that hard, if you tailor the curriculum and goals to it.

The problem lies with creating a system that will be flexible enough to accomodate all of the students (with variations for each) and to accomodate the various levels of conflict and the various goals you have.

The operating system we teach isn't "just for self defence effectiveness". We are also looking to teach people awarenss, avoidance, de-escalation, transition of techniques according to different levels of force and the moral and legal concerns. Sure, teaching someone to kick, punch and choke doesn't take much and with practice they can transition pretty well. But add the depth of levels of responsibilities and it gets tougher.

On the basic level, "martial arts" may be about fighting, but for modern day students, learning an archaic system of hand-to-hand is not nearly as important as learning the art side of being a responsible, moral, and ethical martial artist. The operating system takes years to develop and perfect because you are always digging deeper and deeper into who you are, how your respond, and what (and why) you do.
You’re absolutely right. Learning goes on forever, but core/basics are pretty easy an should be fairly simple. If it’s a self defence focused system then I believe the basics would be easier to pick up, and they should be easy to pick up.

I guess with a wide spread style like TKD many people don’t do it only for self defence so for that reason I guess is has to be varied but it seem your school take your self defence aspect serious which is refreshing :)

Therefore however if someone wanted self defence as their main focus I would advise a system which also had it at its focus. Now some TKD school might do this, but generally speaking I would be harder to find a school like this. I for example no long do Tang Soo Do, not because I didn’t enjoy it, (i loved partner/pad drills) but because as my focus is self defence I felt it would be better to focus on Wing Chun and do that more times a week rather than spread my training time thin. That said I might look at San Shou or kickboxing for my dose of kicking/sparring.


Also, different people learn at different paces. If you can master the basic foundation of Tang Soo Do and Wing Chun within a year, I am impressed. Many of my students could not.
I certainly wouldn't say I mastered the basics of either in a year, far from it, but taking in the basics can be done relatively quickly. It’s really a matter of covering the basics techniques, then spending years working on them and you’re done. I don’t see what else there is technique wise other than further experimentation. Wing Chun was even quicker, literally only 2 or so months do start to get it down. Now after a year I’m still working the same basics albiet improved, but that is essentially it. Sure there are new drills, but there based on the core techniques. WC however is a simple system; some recent beginner for example learnt most of the core Wing Chun techniques in the first 4 weeks! That said its possible peoples definition/standards of “mastered” and “proficient” are different.


If you want to have an operating system that can handle "all ranges" of combat (popular thing nowadays), you have to look at the components: how long to learn a good level of striking? How long for clinching? How long for grappling? etc. Then you have to learn how to tie all of those things together (transitions) and then you have to teach students to tie that to awareness, avoidance, levels of force, and legalities. How long should that take?
That depend on the person but as long as the training methods are good there shouldn't any reason it takes alot of time.

Boxing for example is relatively basic – the hook, uppercut, jab, straight, parrying weaving and footwork and you’re essentially done. That can be covered in weeks/months. Then you spend years and years working on drills, combos and sparring.

So with striking/ground/clinch etc once you’ve covered the core elements of each you spend years making them flow and work together.


Generally "black belt" is the level where you "have mastered the basic of the art", and can tie the physical elements of the art to the movement, mentality, and philosophy of the art. 1st dan just means you now have the tools to make the art "your own".

Might seem like a long time, and many drop out, but in my experience it takes a while for students to put everything together and realy get a handle on the art.

I guess here I don’t like the term “basic” and “advance” techniques as the only difference I see between the two is skill. I essentially know most of what my instructor knows, however his skill is what separated us.

Once you’ve mastered/become advance in the basics what’s next? Advance stuff? Sure exploration/experimentation becomes more of a focus, but I would encourage people to experiment with what they already know throughout their entire training.

That's usually the basic way of starting them, and yes, it's pretty unrealistic. That's why they should progress to be working them out of a fighting stance, against punches/grabs/reverse punches/jabs/etc, and then take them to a faster and faster pace. Only training them in the front stance with the kihaps is pretty silly without a plan to increase the realism.

I have actually been looking around for video of one step sparring but I’ve only come across the basic level, even in black belts. Any good links you know of as I’m always looking for research in various styles..

[Thomas]

Therefore however if someone wanted self defence as their main focus I would advise a system which also had it at its focus. Now some TKD school might do this, but generally speaking I would be harder to find a school like this.
I realy think that students need to find a school that fits their needs and they need to ask questions before they start. Granted, they might not know the right ones, and that's why as instructors I think we need to screen students as well and try to guide them to the schools that fit them. Usually if they try a few schools, they find something that fits, and if they keep an eye out for books/videos/seminars they might find something that fits them even beter (again instructors ned to encourage this as well). In some cases though, there might not be anything around and the "best" school may be the one where you at least get to train and learn something! :D



I certainly wouldn't say I mastered the basics of either in a year, far from it, but taking in the basics can be done relatively quickly. It’s really a matter of covering the basics techniques, then spending years working on them and you’re done. I don’t see what else there is technique wise other than further experimentation. Wing Chun was even quicker, literally only 2 or so months do start to get it down. Now after a year I’m still working the same basics albiet improved, but that is essentially it. Sure there are new drills, but there based on the core techniques. WC however is a simple system; some recent beginner for example learnt most of the core Wing Chun techniques in the first 4 weeks! That said its possible peoples definition/standards of “mastered” and “proficient” are different.



That depend on the person but as long as the training methods are good there shouldn't any reason it takes alot of time.
I think we're debating more over what the terms are than what they mean. I think we both agree that learning the "bare basics" to make something work isn't that hard, getting students to be able to use it/modify it/apply it/flow with it etc is what takes longer and what is so valuable...
your examples below show that idea, I think.

Boxing for example is relatively basic – the hook, uppercut, jab, straight, parrying weaving and footwork and you’re essentially done. That can be covered in weeks/months. Then you spend years and years working on drills, combos and sparring.

So with striking/ground/clinch etc once you’ve covered the core elements of each you spend years making them flow and work together.
I agree, alhtough the more things you add in (e.g. ranges of combat, weapons, footowrk, levels of force, etc) will add in more time in training to get good at it.


Once you’ve mastered/become advance in the basics what’s next? Advance stuff? Sure exploration/experimentation becomes more of a focus, but I would encourage people to experiment with what they already know throughout their entire training.
On one hand I completely agree, I think students need to have constant exposure to people and things outside of the art not only for mental stimulation and learning but also to see what others are doing so we can get ideas and learn how to counter that. On the other hand, I want my students to wait a bit before a deeper committment to another style. Going to seminars, occassional cross training, etc as a color belt? Absolutley, but if you want to start "really learning" another style, wait until you have your basics (1st dan). That's my opinion as an instructor.


I have actually been looking around for video of one step sparring but I’ve only come across the basic level, even in black belts. Any good links you know of as I’m always looking for research in various styles..
I don't really have any good links and can't really recommend any good sources.
We take the one steps that are in our system (and new ones we see along the way) and try them out, first slow and rigid and then add speed and other options (as I described earlier). The ones that work under speed and resiatnce, we keep. The others? We get rid of!

[Topher]

…but if you want to start "really learning" another style, wait until you have your basics (1st dan). That's my opinion as an instructor.
I certainly understand that each instructor has various opinions. What would stop a student from learning two styles?

Anyway, I guess one of my main issues is deeming a black belt as someone who just has the basics down, as by stating “basics” (ie. pre-black belt) you are also implying there are “advance” techniques (ie. post-black belt). I personally feel martial arts system have techniques of which you build a “basic” and then “advance” knowledge/skill of. The basic knowledge should be gained fairly quickly, probably over the first few months to around year or so, depending on the style and person. Advance knowledge develops over time, but by black belt level i think you should certainly be at an advance stage, or at the very least not far off.

I don’t like the term “advance techniques” because it implies they are superior or better than the core “basics”. If self defence is the focus, then surely waiting years to learn better techniques (or add effectiveness in to training) is the wrong way to go? Which I way I believe even the introduction of techniques should provide usable material, not learn it totally unrealistically, then add in the realism at rank X. That said, i do respect that some stuff needs to be done this way, in which case, the time between unrealistic to realistic should be a short as it needs to be.
I firmly believe that the “basics” are what will save you in a fight; hence they are taught from day one. Everything else is simply based on them. Therefore I don’t believe it unwise to assume that someone could actually start to use what there learning relatively quickly. For example, the “thrusting guard” in Wing Chun was the first thing I ever learnt in the system and it’s certainly possibly to use it, for real, straight away. That is an example of a street level technique which could technically be usable in defence after about only 20 minuets of training.

I may learn new drills and combos but they are just based on the systems foundation techniques. I wouldn’t however class them as “new”, or “advance” techniques, but rather variations of the systems foundation.

[John G]

I certainly understand that each instructor has various opinions. What would stop a student from learning two styles?


..

I started WC not long after receiving my 1st dan (ITF). Surprisingly I discovered the how similar the two styles were with regard to hand and foot techniques, the only problem I was having was with the stances as they were slightly different (foot positioning and direction) to that of TKD.

It would be difficult for a student of TKD (pre black belt) to learn both systems at the same time purely because of the similarities in the two styles. The same could be said about TKD and Karate.

When asked what system of self defense is best given my limited experience in martial arts, I suggest WC if ones needs are immediate and TKD if one has the time and resolve to study.

Respectfully,

.

[Topher]

It would be difficult for a student of TKD (pre black belt) to learn both systems at the same time purely because of the similarities in the two styles. The same could be said about TKD and Karate.

I dont see a similarity. Either way, i learnt both Wing Chun and Tang Soo Do quite easy together. Because i wasn't grounded in either style i felt it was quite easy to omve between the two.

When asked what system of self defense is best given my limited experience in martial arts, I suggest WC if ones needs are immediate and TKD if one has the time and resolve to study.

In either way i would suggest WC personally. If your needs are self defence you want what your learning to be effective asap. If WC provides self defence relativly quickly compared to TKD then compare the two students both at black belt level and i bet there would quite a big gap in regards to self defence.

[John G]

I dont see a similarity. Either way, i learnt both Wing Chun and Tang Soo Do quite easy together. Because i wasn't grounded in either style i felt it was quite easy to omve between the two..

Can’t comment as I haven’t studied Tang Soo Do.

Just to clarify, I was comparing what I had learnt studding ITF Taekwon-Do as taught by my instructor (Master Low, 7th Dan) and WC as taught to me by the WWCKFA here in Perth and in Melbourne.


In either way i would suggest WC personally. If your needs are self defence you want what your learning to be effective asap. If WC provides self defence relativly quickly compared to TKD then compare the two students both at black belt level and i bet there would quite a big gap in regards to self defence.

Agreed, I had learnt more about SD applying WC technique and principles in three month than all my studies in TKD to that point (1st Dan).

However, I teach my students WC technique and principles as part of their TKD SD studies. Therefore your bet may hold true for most, but not all, TKD 1st Dan holders with regard to SD.

Respectfully,

..

[Topher]

Can’t comment as I haven’t studied Tang Soo Do.

Just to clarify, I was comparing what I had learnt studding ITF Taekwon-Do as taught by my instructor (Master Low, 7th Dan) and WC as taught to me by the WWCKFA here in Perth and in Melbourne.
Tang Soo Do was one of the Korean styles which some could say was the predecessor to TKD. They remained separate because TSD never joined the TKD Association in 1955. They are essentially the same in most respects.

[John G]

Tang Soo Do was one of the Korean styles which some could say was the predecessor to TKD. They remained separate because TSD never joined the TKD Association in 1955. They are essentially the same in most respects.

ITF TKD was swiped/borrowed/modeled knowingly by General Choi directly or indirectly around the Kushanku and Passai Katas which I believe are Chinese in origin (?), hence the similarities between WC and ITF TKD I guess.

Since TSD had little if anything to do with the KTA in 1955 I don’t know what TSD and TKD have in common besides they are both Korean.

Maybe someone could help me out on this one. If TSD is Kushanku, Passai, Pinan Kata based, then it too shares many of the elements found within WC.

Respectfully,

..

[Topher]

ITF TKD was swiped/borrowed/modeled knowingly by General Choi directly or indirectly around the Kushanku and Passai Katas which I believe are Chinese in origin (?), hence the similarities between WC and ITF TKD I guess.

Since TSD had little if anything to do with the KTA in 1955 I don’t know what TSD and TKD have in common besides they are both Korean.

Maybe someone could help me out on this one. If TSD is Kushanku, Passai, Pinan Kata based, then it too shares many of the elements found within WC.

Respectfully,

..
I believe the beginning hyungs are diffrent (Kee Cho and Pyung Ahn) but they do have the similar dan forms such as Bassai. Check out the Tang Soo Do section for more info (might be useful to start a thread).

[Thomas]

Gotta say, I am really enjoying this discussion... thanks!
I certainly understand that each instructor has various opinions. What would stop a student from learning two styles?
Nothing really, and some students will be able to do it, especialy the young, fit ones with a bit of background. For my child students and my older students (starting after 50), it's a different deal. For students who work regular (and overtime hours) and have families and other obligations, one style is usualy more than enough (plus a bit of cross training). Again, "shades of gray"...

Anyway, I guess one of my main issues is deeming a black belt as someone who just has the basics down, as by stating “basics” (ie. pre-black belt) you are also implying there are “advance” techniques (ie. post-black belt). I personally feel martial arts system have techniques of which you build a “basic” and then “advance” knowledge/skill of. The basic knowledge should be gained fairly quickly, probably over the first few months to around year or so, depending on the style and person. Advance knowledge develops over time, but by black belt level i think you should certainly be at an advance stage, or at the very least not far off.

I don’t like the term “advance techniques” because it implies they are superior or better than the core “basics”. If self defence is the focus, then surely waiting years to learn better techniques (or add effectiveness in to training) is the wrong way to go? Which I way I believe even the introduction of techniques should provide usable material, not learn it totally unrealistically, then add in the realism at rank X. That said, i do respect that some stuff needs to be done this way, in which case, the time between unrealistic to realistic should be a short as it needs to be.
I firmly believe that the “basics” are what will save you in a fight; hence they are taught from day one. Everything else is simply based on them. Therefore I don’t believe it unwise to assume that someone could actually start to use what there learning relatively quickly. For example, the “thrusting guard” in Wing Chun was the first thing I ever learnt in the system and it’s certainly possibly to use it, for real, straight away. That is an example of a street level technique which could technically be usable in defence after about only 20 minuets of training.
"Advanced techniques" is sort of a misnomer and you are completely correct. The "beginner" technqiues we teach are the "long way" to do something and it's done to give the students practice with devloping all of the key components of a technique and to marry the technique onto the foundation. The "circles" are bigger, the footwork precise, the hands and feet in the absolutely right position and we add in more finishes and possibilites as they gain confidence. "Advanced techniques" are when we get into the short cuts and varaitions that will work best once you have the foundation. My students always notice that the materia we do at red belt/1st dan is always "easier" than the lower belt stuff... it's because they have the foundation and the techniques get streamlined.

And yes, you could "start" a student at the streamlined level but then you overlook a lot of the footowrk, positioning, chambers, and set ups that make the simpler movements that much easier to plug in later.

[Topher]

And yes, you could "start" a student at the streamlined level but then you overlook a lot of the footowrk, positioning, chambers, and set ups that make the simpler movements that much easier to plug in later.
I guess it depends on the system. Some styles are streamlined and simple right down to the principles/philosophies and techniques, so one could say even the most basics of techniques are already technically streamlined.

[Thomas]

Every time I think I think "I've got it"... there's always another little piece of the puzzle that snaps in. Heck, I thought I knew it all when I was a green belt, when it first started to really "work"... how many years later and I'm still finding new things that snap into the basics and fundamentals!

The basics are the key, but there is so much more to understanding how it all works... I'll bet there's enough to study over the next 20, 30, 40 or 50 years for me....


:D

[TraditionalTKD]

And that's why I'd rather study and master one Art than be acquainted with 5-10. Whether I think I've got it figured out, there is always something new about Tae Kwon Do to learn.

[franksv]

And that's why I'd rather study and master one Art than be acquainted with 5-10. Whether I think I've got it figured out, there is always something new about Tae Kwon Do to learn.

Well said.

I just came to this realization.I have been doing boxing since I was a kid and tkd for almost 10 years.The last year and a half I have gone into hsing-I,tai chi,a bit of liu ho pa fa and was just considering starting wing chun.I started planning my 06 budget and adjusting my scheldule for class time and then it hit me.For 10 years I was fine doing tkd as a major and keeping boxing as a minor.These two really do blend well.Then it hit me,I don't need more material,I just need to get back to focusing on my core 2 styles.I was getting way to much material for my 1.5 hour daily ma routine.There are plenty of other things to do with my money and my evenings as I have a family.I already have a group of tkd guys that I get with a few times a month on a casual basis.So I guess if I did anything down the road it would be something like hapkido instead of another striking based art.

[Artikon]

I think cross training is fine, but as other people have mentioned it is important to have a good balance, it is also important to understand your own goals. If you take TKD and want to learn something about ground fighting, perhaps do a little wrestling or BJJ, but if you are fine with staying on your feet then taking supplimentary classes in a different art is really a waste of time.

It all comes down to what you want.

[neryo_tkd]

It all comes down to what you want.

exactly. i agree. what you want and what you need it for.

[Topher]

And that's why I'd rather study and master one Art than be acquainted with 5-10. Whether I think I've got it figured out, there is always something new about Tae Kwon Do to learn.
I guess i would like to become proficent in a few ranges, strikes, close quarters, grappling and maybe weapons. Ten years experiance in each page would make you a pretty good alround fighting.

Secondly, what sort of new things do you discover? I would expect someone to get to a point where technically they've become excellent. That dosn't mean they can't or wont learn more, but i doubt there kick or punch would drastically improve once they've reached a certain level.

[TraditionalTKD]

I continually learn new subtle nuances about technique that make it more effective, new ways to apply something, or new understanding of an existing technique that makes me realize why it is done the way it is.

Many people can practice the gross actions of, say, a knife hand block, and think they understand it. You can practice a knife hand block or side kick for 10 years and just begin to understand how to make it effective. It takes that long to appreciate the subtle nuances that go into something.

[neryo_tkd]

Secondly, what sort of new things do you discover? I would expect someone to get to a point where technically they've become excellent. That dosn't mean they can't or wont learn more, but i doubt there kick or punch would drastically improve once they've reached a certain level.

but a martial art does not revolve around a kick or a punch. there are so much much more to it.

[TraditionalTKD]

That's why it's called Tae Kwon DO. Because you can spend your whole life studying it. That's something that really bugs me: People who study a martial art for 2-3 years and think they know what it's about.

[Topher]

I agree learning goes on for life, but in terms of technique, there are only so many and you must get to a level where you get so good (in technique) that further improvements dont appear to be massive.

[Bernard]

My personal opinion is that Taekwondo isn't that useful if u solely train for oylmpic style sparring. I have been training with a WTF class the whole year and yet has the instrcutor taught us anything on self defence, everyhting is based on sparring(not good self defence training but a excellent cardio regime).

It's be good to utilise more hand techniques and non-stricking techniques. (ITF syllabus has them, but many instructors are ignoring it). How ever I think boxing compliments Taekwondo well and will help most Taekwondoist in developing better defence and counter attacks.

Bernard.

[tkd_master]

Ok, lets bring this thread back to life. WTF is less street effective, you might get a lucky KO but if you miss... :eek: . ITF is well rounded in my oppinion (as long as you spar often). My old instructor used to get mats out and we would learn take downs, throws and wrist grabs. I miss that guy, he's a good instructor!

WTF still can be effective, i.e. you can take someone by suprise with a voley of powerfull kicks.

[Artikon]

Why would you want to bring this back to life? WTF is a sport. Basketball is a sport. Neither are good for self defense. Taekwondo trained as an art and for self defense is good, providing that drills are with resisting partners, realistic in nature and technique, and allow for sparring with varying rules/restrictions. To this end it doesn't matter if you are ITF/WTF/ITA/UTI/TAGB/ or whatever.

[MaverickZ]

Ok, lets bring this thread back to life. WTF is less street effective, you might get a lucky KO but if you miss... :eek: . ITF is well rounded in my oppinion (as long as you spar often). My old instructor used to get mats out and we would learn take downs, throws and wrist grabs. I miss that guy, he's a good instructor!

WTF still can be effective, i.e. you can take someone by suprise with a voley of powerfull kicks.
DIAF

[Slindsay]

DIAF

You made me lose a bet with myself you git.

[Artikon]

Okay so what did you lose?

[Slindsay]

Okay so what did you lose?

Dignity, most precious of all feelings.

[kwang gae]

DIAF
:confused:

[Artikon]

Dignity, most precious of all feelings.
I don't know, I'm kinda partial to the squishy kind.

[MaverickZ]

You made me lose a bet with myself you git.
I don't know what a git is, but you're one too.

[Tansy]

I don't know what a git is, but you're one too.


a git is a word like d*ckhead but with a DH your stupid as well as horrible git is just meaning your horrid basicaly I think, I love that word! I'm sure your not a git though.

I ask this question...how many of you whether you are a TKD practioner, a Judo person, Karate or Maui Thai, has ever been in a situation where the skills you may have required have been used ot either stop a fight or save your life.

Then I think you can truely say the form you practised was usefull, all forms have a negative and posative that is life. The more a MA forms the better it becommes, but as I have said no one is immortal so anyone can get beaten up etc, you justy have that much of a better chance.

[tkd_master]

DIAF

That's what your ma said

[kwang gae]

I ask this question...how many of you whether you are a TKD practioner, a Judo person, Karate or Maui Thai, has ever been in a situation where the skills you may have required have been used ot either stop a fight or save your life.
Actually I think that MA training stops lots of fights. I think the confidence people acquire allows people to walk away or otherwise diffuse a situation, and the discipline keeps them from popping off with stupid actions and/or comments that could start fights. :)

[whatsthecraic]

Actually I think that MA training stops lots of fights. I think the confidence people acquire allows people to walk away or otherwise diffuse a situation, and the discipline keeps them from popping off with stupid actions and/or comments that could start fights. :)

I completely agree ...

I haven't actually had a fight since starting tkd ... but the discipline has enabled me to walk away from many

[Artikon]

I ask this question...how many of you whether you are a TKD practioner, a Judo person, Karate or Maui Thai, has ever been in a situation where the skills you may have required have been used ot either stop a fight or save your life.
**raises hand**

[aaron_mag]

I ask this question...how many of you whether you are a TKD practioner, a Judo person, Karate or Maui Thai, has ever been in a situation where the skills you may have required have been used ot either stop a fight or save your life.


Never had to use it, but I know plenty who have had to in the 20 plus years I've been involved in it.

Sometimes it doesn't work. A guy gets sucker punched or some such.

But more often then not the people I know have used it successfully. This includes a teenage girl who dropped a middle aged guy who groped her on the subway then followed her off of it. One spinning back kick to the ribs put him down.

The main useful thing seems to be the element of surprise. No one expects some teenage girl to launch a well practiced spinning side kick into you gut. If she had dropped into a fighting stance and let the guy get prepared it might have been a different story.

I personally, while I do study grappling, see no benefit in that situation to taking someone bigger to the ground and going for a submission. Not to mention close body contact was exactly what that sicko was looking for. Surprise kick, drop them, get the frick out of there!!!

[MaverickZ]

I personally, while I do study grappling, see no benefit in that situation to taking someone bigger to the ground and going for a submission. Not to mention close body contact was exactly what that sicko was looking for. Surprise kick, drop them, get the frick out of there!!!
Typical confusion. NO GRAPPLER ACTUALLY _WANTS_ TO GO TO THE GROUND. Let me repeat that. NO GRAPPLER ACTUALLY _WANTS_ TO GO TO THE GROUND. Every single grappler would rather end the situation standing up with a single well placed blow to the jaw.

I don't know what "grappling" you study, but I suggest you talk to your instructor about your confusion.

[Epicurus]

TKD, in my experience, is okay in a street fight, but unless you work on your hands a lot it will be an iffy proposition to disable a street fighter with just kicks. Not to mention a fight could start with the other guy already right in your face, or even grabbing you.

Also, to whoever said Grappling a bigger guy is a bad idea - unless that big guy knows how to grapple too, it's a lot safer to be on top of him on the ground than it is to be trading strikes with him (see Royce Gracie vs. Every Big Guy Ever). The whole "grappling doesn't work on larger/stronger opponents" thing is the biggest load of bull ever, in my humble opinion.

Anyway, I have a friend who crosstrains TKD and Kickboxing who's a very adept fighter with hands or feet. (though not grappling yet) The key to your TKD being useful on the street is that you have the chance to hit things full power in class, and the chance to spar with medium to hard-contact in order to learn to take a punch and deal with the fight getting up-close and personal. There's nothing wrong with TKD in itself, it's the way you often see it being taught.

[Kaizen-th3]

im going to take a different approach to this debate, so bear with me before judging

if street fighting was an art, what makes it so "superior" to other arts?
the eye gouge technique? the throw as many angry punches and grab them technique? the 2 on 1 techinique? the i have a gun technique? or the im drunk and can barely stand but i wanna fight technique?

i seen many posts saying how ineffective TKD would be in a street fight, well what are street fighters doing that are SO effective? can this be classified as a style, like a no rules style...can it be taught? i just havent seen its effectiveness

simply put
TKD teaches attacking and defending with hands and feet
street fighting requires attacking and defending with hands and feet

i understand there are more/less effective ways of using your hands/feet, but i just dont see how a random person on the street (with no formal martial art knowledge) has superior technique than someone who trains

from my own limited experience and witnessing street fights, unless someone is a hulking gorilla, the person with better control and technique wins

there is a lot of common sense that has to be applied. on the streets everything is fair game, so why would a martial artist stick to strict rules? makes no sense
ive seen a 2nd degree black belt pull some dirty tricks to stay on top of a fight...and he won big time

not to contradict myself, but i think it is all situational
for example:

TKD is...
2v1 ~ probably not effective
Attacker has a weapon ~ not effective at all
Attack has suprize and hits you off guard ~ somewhat effective depending how you took the blow
Attacker is a gorilla ~ probably not effective as your only getting 1 hit in and it wont knock him out
Attacker is drunk ~ very effective
Random "i can kick ur a**" angry person ~ pretty effective

the last two examples are what ive seen/heard about most often, so i would like to belive that TKD is somewhat effective.

consider having no training, are you better off in a street fight?
can you now be classified as a random street fighter? and are you superior to a skilled martial artist?

just food for thought

[TKDTraditional]

I like to think that the street-effectiveness of any martial art depends on the willingness of either person to lose his (or her) good looks!

A street-hardened thug is, of course, more fight-saavy than an honest citizen who happens to train in a martial sport. A drunk could actually be an average Joe with temporarily impaired judgement. When it comes right down to it, when somebody gets hit, how do they react? Get mad? Get scared? Get even? Get friends? If an attacker is willing to get hit again and again and again--up to the point they're not so pretty anymore--I wonder how any martial art would stand up. How willing are YOU to get hit? How do you react?

Hopefully the element of surprise will be very effective. Next, the element of pain. I hope no one has to use the element of disabling deformity.

My advice, train for effectiveness, practice control, study good judgement. And best of all, avoid dangerous situations. Who REALLY wants to find out if their monthly dues were worth it? Feel happy with your skills and improved health. Value martial frieinds more than martial victories.

[aaron_mag]

Typical confusion. NO GRAPPLER ACTUALLY _WANTS_ TO GO TO THE GROUND. Let me repeat that. NO GRAPPLER ACTUALLY _WANTS_ TO GO TO THE GROUND. Every single grappler would rather end the situation standing up with a single well placed blow to the jaw.

I don't know what "grappling" you study, but I suggest you talk to your instructor about your confusion.

You're actually right there. A wrestler would rather not take me down with a double leg and and sit on me saying, "Just calm down!"

He'd rather trade blows on the feet with me and give me the famous 'puncher's chance'.

Ha ha ha...

Dude...what are you talking about? I know you have Renzo's/Royler's book and they talk about neutralizing someone's offense/size by taking someone to the ground. Do I need to get out the book and quote from the intro?

And the grappling I study is Sambo and we never really discuss if we want to go to the ground or not in a street situation. This is because we are focused on the sport training aspect of it. Which is fine with me. I don't like to spend time fretting about being attacked all the time. I would probably not even think about it if every other post on site's like this wasn't, "On the street [insert absolute theory here]..."

Also note that the situation I was referring to was a girl late at night. In this situation the kick and run like hell scenario was perfect.

I am NOT, however, saying that grappling training is useless for self-defense. I'm merely pointing out that in some situations knowing a good spinning sidekick might fit a person's immediate needs better.


Also, to whoever said Grappling a bigger guy is a bad idea - unless that big guy knows how to grapple too, it's a lot safer to be on top of him on the ground than it is to be trading strikes with him (see Royce Gracie vs. Every Big Guy Ever). The whole "grappling doesn't work on larger/stronger opponents" thing is the biggest load of bull ever, in my humble opinion.

Actually Royce won most of his matches against big guys from the bottom.

Once again note that I'm not saying that grappling is worthless in self-defense or that grappling against a bigger opponent is worthless. I've actually been submitted by guys who I outweighed by quite a bit after struggling to pass their guard and stacking them for what felt like hours (but closer to a couple of minutes :) ). Its good stuff to know, without a doubt.

BUT again it might not be the wisest option. There are times when good old 'krotty' might have a move or two that is the best bet.

Why would anyone get excited about that conclusion?

[Artikon]

Okay in the street even a grappler knows that if they go down there is a good chance that multiple attackers can become involved. Who has better take down defense: Standup kickboxer, krotty, taekwondoer or a grappling wrestler?

Just cause they can take it down to the ground, and are probably more proficient at ground work, doesn't mean that they will in a street situation. Personally if I ever get jumped and they try and take me down, I'm sprawling like my life depended on it instead of trying to work for a sub. Plus there's broken glass, needles and lava down there.

Mav, this what you getting at? Or do I get hit with the bad dog stick again?

[aaron_mag]

Okay in the street even a grappler knows that if they go down there is a good chance that multiple attackers can become involved. Who has better take down defense: Standup kickboxer, krotty, taekwondoer or a grappling wrestler?

Just cause they can take it down to the ground, and are probably more proficient at ground work, doesn't mean that they will in a street situation. Personally if I ever get jumped and they try and take me down, I'm sprawling like my life depended on it instead of trying to work for a sub. Plus there's broken glass, needles and lava down there.

Mav, this what you getting at? Or do I get hit with the bad dog stick again?

Or how about a throw? No need to go to the ground at all. I've known wrestlers who have dropped someone on their head and called it good. No need for submissions or even to throw a punch.


But again this wasn't the situation I used as an example. It was an example of when a fricken spinning sidekick was used by a smaller person against a larger one (and a female against a male).

All I'm maintaining in that particular situation TKD served her better than a grappling art would have.

And once again I'm NOT saying grappling sucks!!!!! For some reason everyone always wants to turn these sort of debates into a polarized thing where one thing is ABSOLUTELY wrong where the other choice is ABSOLUTELY right.

I find this sort of thinking very curious...

[Artikon]

In terms of your original situation mentioned valid point.

I think Mav was getting up in arms because the general stereotype is that a grappler wants to take a fight to the ground. Although in your example this probably would not have been desirable, the knee jerk reaction is to say if she grappled she would take the creepy dude down, rather an intelligent grappler knows that if it is on the street it may be safer to simply sprawl and brawl and not be put in the situation of getting gang kicked by . . . the gang.

Again each scenerio is different, I have taken a street fight to the ground, but don't really endorse the idea. Simply the situation was one in which that was the best course of action. (I know hilarious the TKD guy taking the fight to the ground).

In terms of deciding to throw, I think that's one of those high risk, low percentage techniques. Great in the ring, but missed on the street can present an unwanted situation. Exact same thing as a spinning hook kick. Great in competition and if you can hit it great, but you only have one shot on the street before getting mauled if you decide to throw it. Again each scenerio is differnt. . . . I really should be studying

[aaron_mag]

In terms of deciding to throw, I think that's one of those high risk, low percentage techniques. Great in the ring, but missed on the street can present an unwanted situation.

I didn't mean to even classify all grapplers as wanting to go to the ground. Just like I wouldn't classify all wrestlers as throwers. I mean sometimes a coach will say to a kid, "This guy is a thrower. Don't tie up with him. You're strength is leg riding...wear him out and pin him..."

But when a guy is a good thrower it is certainly NOT a low percentage move. I've grappled with a guy who went to national in college wrestling...when he wants to throw you he'll find a way. In fact some pretty good grapplers advise, "Just pull guard as soon as you can on him! Don't even try to resist his takedown!!!!"

But then again we aren't all at a national collegiate wrestling level...ha ha.

At any rate I guarantee that on the street that guy could toss guys and it wouldn't be a low percentage move. We all have varying strengths.

Although I would agree that spinning hook kick probably isn't a good idea on the street regardless!

:)

[13ang]

I think a big issue is the situation. Are you being attacked randomly on the street, or are you squaring off against someone? Two different fight situations, obviously two different answers.

If you are a grappler going one on one against a trained stiker, obviously it would be wise to take the fight to the ground. If you are a grappler going one on one against an untrained fighter, it would be wise to take the fight to the ground.

However the way I see it, there are too many variables in a street situation to take a fight to the ground. Especialy considering that in most street situations(ie mugging) your not going up against one opponent, but 2 or 3. My main goal is to do as much damage as I can do as quickly as I can do it, and while my opponent(s) is/are stuned, get the hell away from whoever was attacking you.

Another thing is I dont want to break a guys arm if I dont have to, and its not like once you submit him he is gonna tap out, get up, and walk away.

[kwang gae]

Although I would agree that spinning hook kick probably isn't a good idea on the street regardless!
I guess that would depend on how good you are at throwing them. I personally know a guy that can hit you with one before you can say "go". :D

[Mitch]

I guess that would depend on how good you are at throwing them. I personally know a guy that can hit you with one before you can say "go". :D

G

[taekwon-dork]

I think a big issue is the situation. Are you being attacked randomly on the street, or are you squaring off against someone? Two different fight situations, obviously two different answers.

If you are a grappler going one on one against a trained stiker, obviously it would be wise to take the fight to the ground. If you are a grappler going one on one against an untrained fighter, it would be wise to take the fight to the ground.

However the way I see it, there are too many variables in a street situation to take a fight to the ground. Especialy considering that in most street situations(ie mugging) your not going up against one opponent, but 2 or 3. My main goal is to do as much damage as I can do as quickly as I can do it, and while my opponent(s) is/are stuned, get the hell away from whoever was attacking you.

Another thing is I dont want to break a guys arm if I dont have to, and its not like once you submit him he is gonna tap out, get up, and walk away.

This is the attitude that keeps TKD people from learning how to grapple.

TK-Dork

[Mitch]

What was that? Dang my head hurts...

Mitch

[Ragnarok2005]

Taekwon-Do is a martial art, designed on and for the battlefield. If you do it correctly, it's a highly effective method of self-defence.

Correctly doesn't mean you know the exact angle of your arm in a pattern movement, or that you can tap your opponent with your padded foot faster than they can. It means you actually train in the art the way it was intended.