The science behind it

[Sandus]

Hi. This is my first post, so try to bear with me. I don't practice T'ai Chi (though I'd like to--I guess that makes me a wannabe, but I'll save that for another post), but I've been studying about it for the last year or so. I'm fascinated by how it works and the things that are possible using Qigong, so I decided that I would write a university research paper on the science behind the art. I decided to focus on the physics of Qigong, and the subsequent martial arts styles that make use of it. My problem is, I have no idea where to look and am rapidly running out of sources for information.

Does anybody know where I can find information about the biophysics and biokinetics behind T'ai Chi and Qigong? I have been looking at the YMAA books by Yang, Jwing-Ming, and those are a good start, but I need more information. If anybody could help me I would greatly appreciate it.

[David]

Hi and welcome :).

If you're thinking what I think you're thinking, then you'll have to have access to a sports-science gymnasium/lab facility where you can plug taichi ppl into machines and get data that way.

Rgds,
David

[Hannibal]

I believe BK Frantiz wrote quite a lengthy tome on it...stand by a sec...

ahh yes, here you go "The Power of Internal Martial Arts" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1556432534/ref=sr_aps_books_1_3/202-1469677-9867845)

hope it helps...but bear in mind that some people doubt that Chi even exists in the first place.

Let us all know how you get on.

[wingchunner]

Warriors of Stillness I and II by Jan Dierpersloot

Tao of Tai Chi Chuan by Jou,...

These are the best. For some videos, go to

http://www.immortalpalm.com

Go to the Chen section and look around, you can buy a Chen TCC video through a link there.

Also, at http://www.fustyle.com

Master Victor (Sheng Lung) Fu sells good Fu family style Tai Chi Chuan videos.

You really should find a good teacher for hands on instruction that will push you a little bit. Most people aren't mentally strong enough to handle the stance training without someone pushing and encouraging them.

Good luck.

Marty

[nzric]

I don't know specific texts but it might be helpful to start with any anatomy and human movement text, and research conservation of energy principles in human movement (I know there are a lot of very helpful texts in the field of amputee therapy, especially in the design of prosthetic legs). How about the biomechanics of dance/track & field events?

Without entering into the whole messy debate of chi energy... qigong is a way of focusing your mind and centering it on your own body. Many tai chi exercises have similarities to pilates, and while yoga is very different it tends to have the same kinds of focusing/breathing preparations. You'll find by researching those topics that many of the studies have already been done.

It's a small step from those, to studying a series of simple tai chi movements and describing how the forces interact. It could also be helpful to look at the spiral body energies of bagua and the linear, focused energies of Hsing i as well as the wave-like power of tai chi, for an overview of IMA principles.

Also, many animation programs allow you to construct skeletons of figures and precisely measure the forces in a virtual world - that may be an idea if you're technically minded. If you do, make sure you introduce us to your tai chi robot in the future.

[Sphyerion]

I suggest you learn Tai Chi before attempting to understand if scientifically. As in, learn it yourself... not read a book about it. Once you practice it enough, you will understand enough to actually study it scientifically.

[David]

As nzric says, amputees and prosthetics is a good place to start; I've been finding out about this recently, myself.

[Jimmy Wand-Yu]

A good book about this is: "Tai-chi Ch'üan" by Song Z.J. He is a doctor of profession and a master of Tai Chi and Qigong in the Yang tradition (branch of Cheng Man Ching). He describes Tai Chi and Qigong in western and eastern terms, philosophical and physiological.


Jimmy

[Sandus]

I just wanted to thank everybody who has helped me out so far. I've found several valuable resources, but I'm still looking. Most people (at least in recent years) agree that Qi is a form of bioelectricity, but nobody has yet been able to agree on how it is actually manipulated by the mind. There have been some great technical studies in China in the last several years that have actually been used to quantify the amount of electricity that someone can generate using Qigong.

As far as learning Tai Chi...
I'm just a student and I take six classes and don't work, so I can't really afford to pay for Tai Chi Classes/Lessons. In addition, I haven't decided exactly which style it is I'd like to learn (I'll probably ask more about this later), so it's impossible for me to find a capable instructor until I do.

[nzric]

Most people (at least in recent years) agree that Qi is a form of bioelectricity

No they don't

[teacher]

Yes they do but no one wanted to tell you.
They all had a meeting and took a vote. Then they said "who will tell the Aussies?"
And there was a really long pause and a couple of embarassed coughs.
I think they were gonna text you or something.

[Sandus]

Okay, let me qualify that statement :). Most of the sources that I've found agree that the qi inside a human is bioelectricity, and that Qigong is the ability to manipulate your electromagnetic field. Qi in general has been depicted as basically the forces of the universe (similar to unified field theory). If these are bad sources, or if I'm misinterpreting them, please let me know. I'm trying to be scientific about this research, so I know I'm missing an entire spiritual aspect of Tai Chi. Seems like I bit off a little more than I could chew...

[nzric]

Beware Sandus, you're entering the field of dodgy science. If ki were electrical energy we'd drop dead as soon as we stepped near powerlines. Also, I have a scientist friend who regularly works beside powerful electromagnets and it doesn't have any effect (he should know, as he practices tai chi/qigong).

There are a lot of older threads where we discussed this in depth - have a look in the threads named chi/qi/ki.

[soggycat]

OK, not trying to criticise here, just clarifying the scientific facts:

A lightning bolt can kill.
It is made of the same electron flow that occurs in High Voltage power lines.
The diff is, a lightning bolt will kill if it is directed at you.
Standing near a powerline is not going to kill until you make physical contact.
It's not the size of the Voltage ( volts) but the Current ( amperes) that determines if the electrical shock will kill a person.And if the shock pass thru the heart muscle cause fribillation or arrest.


Standing directly infront of a commercial airport or long range military radar will give you severe radiation burns within minutes or seconds.
Birds flying withing a few meters of these Radar Antenna are instantly fried .

If anyone has any doubts about this, try climbing up the RADAR tower at Sydney International Airport ( if you survive getting shot by security first) and see how long you'd live from the high energy ( Kilowatts) Microwave energy.
Or even the TV transmission towers at Gore Hill/ Ataramon


Electrical energy exist in the following forms:
1. Stored charge ( as in battery, or static)
2. Current flow ( as in mains or power line or lightning or spark plug)
3. Radiation ( aka electromagnetic waves, eg. LF HF, VHF, UHF, Gamma rays, X-Rays, UV, InfraRed, radio waves ,LASER, Microwave ( yes that's your oven )

Personally, I'm not say that Chi is BioElectric energy.
Personally I think it might be and more than that.
BioElectricity , BioMagnetism is a very restrictive Box-term that I am careful not to use except in the most casual sense when describing Chi to a newbie.

[nzric]

Yes, electricity can kill but the damage it does is by burns (even microwaves kill by heat, i.e. increased molecular activity), and intense muscle (heart) contractions.

If chi were electricity and chi were controllable by your brain, then by that reasoning, having an electric current pass through you would change your brain activity. People have been doing parlour tricks, using human bodies to carry an electrical current (look at the static electricity trick where everybody's hair stands on end), since the Victorian times, and there are no reports of this extending/decreasing lifespan, or altering behaviour/brain patters.

Put it this way. Humans generate electricity but it is in a very minute amount. If chi and chi cultivation were linked to electricity, then it stands to reason that:

a) If you direct the same amount of electricity into a human as a human can produce naturally, it would have similar effects to 'chi'. But, we see that in the right circumstances humans can carry thousands of volts through them with no ill effects.

b) Chi cultivation would cause an easily measurable increase in bioelectric current. As far as I know, no research has proved this.

As they proved hundreds of years ago, if you passed an electric current through an amputated limb, you can cause movement. However, this movement is muscle contraction caused by the electrical impulses. One thing I think we all agree on is that the idea of 'chi' cannot be interpreted as mere muscle contraction.

[soggycat]

I agree !
:)

[nzric]

It's the same for biomagnetism - just replace 'electricity' with 'magnetism' in the above post.

[Cybren]

Simple answer: There is none?

[Mad Yakker]

Simple answer: There is none?

There is one!!!

[Rigaku]

One thing I've been thinking about is that the sensation of qi that I get is somewhat similar to being hypnotized. If you've ever been at a conference or something where the entertainment is a "professional hypnotist" you might know what I'm talking about.

They start you out by having you sit with your hands in your lap and close your eyes, and then relax every muscle in your body. S/He will then guide the relaxation up from your toes to your legs, etc. etc. After your entire body feels tingly and like it's in a warm pool of water, then s/he says something about relaxing your mind. Ten minutes later you find yourself making love to your shoe and everyone laughing, and you're totally aware of it, but you can't stop it.

Not that I've ever made love to a shoe mid-way through a single-whip, but the sensation of relaxation and connectedness is creepily similar. Surely there is some sort of science behind this.

Oh, and technically, there can be only one.

[Polar Bear]

Hi Sandus,
If you are going to seriously study this then. Devise the experiment then from the results build the theory. So first state what the aim of the study is?

The Bear.

[Gary]

I thought this was a joke before I read the date on Sandus' first post! :D