a little help, please

[chip]

i work for a runaway center, and teach self-defense to our volunteers in my agency and many others. it is not anything incredibly difficult - mainly simple manuevers and strikes to escape a situation. the sessions at other agencies or in the community are only one day for 4 hours - i know you all share my frustration with the time constraints.

many of the volunteers, co-workers, and community members that attend the sessions are female. an alarming wave of sexual assaults and rapes have occured in a very short time, and many of my students are terrified for their safety.

i have been hit with a barrage of requests for ways to escape a rape situation - i.e., the female is flat on her back, and the male is attempting to penetrate her. the size, weight, and strength differences between my participants is incredibly broad, but the women weigh considerably less than the men.

keeping in mind the brief period of training sessions, could anyone help me strategize methods to escape this situation (especially how petite females (many of my female students are 120 pounds or so - or so at least that's what they tell me! j.k.) could manuever out of being pinned by a much heavier and stronger opponent?

i appreciate any and all feedback.

Thanx

[Guerilla Fists]

Here is a move we use in judo.
The attacker is lying prone legs splayed and the assailant is dominating above trying to choke the person out (this is exactly the possition you described only the defence is different, but the technique applies). The victim grabs onto the assailants left arm with both hands near the wrist. Then the assailant uses the leverage to scoot the hips the left of the attackers hips. Both legs come up and around to the front of the opponent. The left leg crosses the attackers neck and the right leg crosses the attackers chest fitting under the armpit. Then the victim, now the attacker, flexes and straightens out driving the assailant towards the floor WHILE HOLDING ONTO THE LEFT ARM AT THE WRIST WITH BOTH HANDS. Presto Chango you have a two second arm bar! Let me know if you can visualize this or if you need some more description. I'm sure we can all come up with more than the usual aim for throat and groin type stuff. Classic as it is, sometimes it is impractical. Again, hope this helps!

[Tatsumaru]

this is the same technique we learn eightfold, but we also learn a very effective one which works every time. The person is on top of you with legs either side kneeling and with their hands going for your throat. immediately get youur index fingers under the pressure point where ears join head and thrust hips up and to one side whilst pushing the same way with fingers. person will always get off if you have the pressure point right!

[Hannibal]

Forget anything that involves body mechanics of a complex nature or that requires training - they do not have the luxury. Also any technique involving a pressure point or joint lock is useless as they require fine motor skills which are simply absent from a rape situation. Bear in mind that most rapists will not think twice about punching a victim to acheive compliance. This means a technique has to be fast and instantly effective.

I used to teach them to gouge the eyes using thumbs. When an attacker goes to penetrate he must remove at least one hand to remove the victims clothing, his clothing or to expose his member. When this is occuring is an ideal window to attack. As the hand goes back go straight to the eyes (or just the eye if one hand is pinned). Then the female can push him off with a greater degree of ease. Additionally the feet can be placed on the hips to allow a "push away".

In cases where the assailant is close in then the best advice is to bite and tear. Yes it is unpalatable, but it is also very alarming for the recipient. Bite deep and rip away. Bear in mind HIV etc obviously, but then compare it to the alternative.

Any biting/ripping combo is the best they will get in such a short amount of training. Also they are easy to use and very effective - why do you think they are banned in NHB? Because an untrained brawler can end a fight against a much better opponent with such a "dirty" tactic. They also afford the advantage of getting the attacker's DNA (bloodstains from a wound) and also they will mark the attacker for potential ID at a later date.

[xplasma]

Being one your back and being raped, is a looks like a standard BJJ guard (obviously with a lot more volience). Maybe teaching , transtition to the open guard . Moving their feet on to the attacker's hips and in their stituation extending there legs, pushing the attacker off of them. This would stop peneration. From there, they can used their feet to kick, and at least have a chance of running away. But with that, they might be able to stop the sexual part of the assault.

[Rice Krispies]

If someone is charging directly into the open gaurd, the one on the bottom is not the one in danger of being raped. First of all teach closed gaurd, open gaurd, and butterfly gaurd. Teach controlling the opponents bas from this position. Then teach scissor sweeps, hip sweeps, push sweeps, and butterfly sweeps and any other relevant sweeping techniques. After thats been learned teach triangles, armbars and a collar choke. This shouldnt take too long to get and at the very least the knowledge that that is a strong fighting position shuld prove useful.

[Hannibal]

If someone is charging directly into the open gaurd, the one on the bottom is not the one in danger of being raped. First of all teach closed gaurd, open gaurd, and butterfly gaurd. Teach controlling the opponents bas from this position. Then teach scissor sweeps, hip sweeps, push sweeps, and butterfly sweeps and any other relevant sweeping techniques. After thats been learned teach triangles, armbars and a collar choke. This shouldnt take too long to get and at the very least the knowledge that that is a strong fighting position shuld prove useful.

Sorry but this is NOT going to work in a million years. Remember they need something that can be used under duress adn within a short space of time. Frankly, as much as I love BJJ, it does not fit the bill in this scenario.

Gouge, bite, push run - that's all that is going to work on sucha very short course

[xplasma]

Sorry but this is NOT going to work in a million years. Remember they need something that can be used under duress adn within a short space of time. Frankly, as much as I love BJJ, it does not fit the bill in this scenario.

Gouge, bite, push run - that's all that is going to work on sucha very short course
I disagree, eventhough the sweep and stuff would be hard to pull off. The basics would help greatly. Keeping the attacker away with an open guard, can buy some time and will make the attacker think twice. kick bite and stratch should be a option, but if the attck is always that close, it proabably too late.

[Rice Krispies]

"Sorry but this is NOT going to work in a million years. Remember they need something that can be used under duress adn within a short space of time."

Right...So what youre saying is that youd rather have them flailing away from underneath as opposed to making use of simple, escape oriented tactics? Scratching and biting are better than destabilizing them and getting up? And if that fails they have another line of defense with triangles and such. If women have limited time to learn self defense they dont need to learn to scratch and bite. They aready know that. If the course is to short to teach actual self defense, then its a bad course. If all that was needed to protect yourself from some maniac was scratching and biting then martial arts would be obslete. There is no quick fix to personal protection. If you want that get a gun.

[Rice Krispies]

And if the woman cant go the two weeks or so that t takes to learn this without getting raped theres a major problem.

[TheMasterSword]

i think that rather than argue what would work, what style is the best, what tactic is the best (these have already been stated in other threads)... it would be more beneficial to your students to concentrate on the basics.... i am an assistant instructor in a women's self-defense course that runs the entire semester... we usually only teach basics and fundamentals.. but the one time a student asked me "what to do in X situation?" i showed a technique that i use from ju jutsu and bjj and i showed it to her avbout 10 times over the course of the semester (cuz she would always forget something)....however, i saw this same student i asked her about the techniques and she said that she forgot most of them!!! the truth is these techniques to the average person are UBER (very) complicated and involve many years of practice... i have found that unless a student trains hard in a self defense art, these moves that you try to teach will not come out automatically under a stressful situation and that they will stand there thinking, "hmmm what did the sensei tell me to do here.... oh wait i supposed to do something..with his.... oh no im dead" (over dramatized)........ i find that its more important especially if you're only meeting them for a once a week situation to always show basics and fundamentals (ie maintaining base, awareness, prevention...etc. etc.) because these are the most important aspects of self defense... maybe if they actually start taking classes from you then you should continue unto more advanced techniques(open guard sweeps, submissions, etc. etc.)

[Tatsumaru]

Themastersword makes a good point, in a stressful situuation the average person with only a few weeks training will forget everything and resort to the "flailing scratching" tactics which are unlikely to work. teaching them where to hit to really do damage and how to hit may be a better plan. Show them the solar plexus etc and how to hit people properly and they are more likely to remember it than a complicated, or even a basic, technique.

[Hannibal]

Themastersword makes a good point, in a stressful situuation the average person with only a few weeks training will forget everything and resort to the "flailing scratching" tactics which are unlikely to work. teaching them where to hit to really do damage and how to hit may be a better plan. Show them the solar plexus etc and how to hit people properly and they are more likely to remember it than a complicated, or even a basic, technique.

Which was my point exactly! I love BJJ but the first post quite clearly stated that time was limited. BJJ requires time that is not available

[Rice Krispies]

Yeh, but it will actually work. You can take a short cut and try to win off of cheap shots, but that wont really be all too effective. If all self defense took was a few seminars, martial arts would be obslete. You get out of it what you put into it.

[Hannibal]

Yeh, but it will actually work. You can take a short cut and try to win off of cheap shots, but that wont really be all too effective. If all self defense took was a few seminars, martial arts would be obslete. You get out of it what you put into it.

Yes it will work if you practice regularly and if you are able to apply it under duress and if you are not having your clothes torn from you and if the rapist has placed you in a "classic" guard in the first place.

How can you sweep from a sofa? Or from a dirty alleyway? Or if you are outweighed by a drunken, slobbering man who outweighs you by 100lbs? Of couse it can be done, but the probability of managing it sucessfully decreases tremendously if the scenario you encounter is not 100% as practiced.

Again, if gouging and scratching are ineffective (which I might add they are not) then why are they banned from NHB competitions? Simple THEY WORK TOO EASILY AND CAUSE A LOT OF DAMAGE WITH MINIMUM SKILL. Could you sweep Bob Sapp? I haven't met you but I will guarantee the answer is "No". Could you blind him in one eye and rip a piece of his face off? Hell yes!

I practice JKD/BJJ/Trad JJ/Boxing, but I am under no illusions that a good bite or gouge will knock me for 6. In fact, I make a personal study of "kino-mutai" for those very reasons - it is a great equaliser.

Try this test. Find an inexperienced lady friend, preferably slight in build, and put her on her back with a guard. Teach here the simple scissor sweep in 5 minutes or less.

Then show her a double thumb gouge, face bite and kick off combination again in less than five minutes.

One week later put her in the same position and get her to repeat them both. Which do you think she will be able to re-produce? Then try the same test but with "resistance" from the attacker. Which one do you think will work best?

Self-Protection and Martial Arts are NOT the same at all. One is a series of techniques to enable someone to develop physically, spiritually and emotionally where as the other can be a matter of life and death.

You never "win" a street attack - you survive it.

Think on.

[Tatsumaru]

ok hannibal, you got me convinced....................though i am not sure that you really are the law! :)

[KiWarrior]

(1)Yes it will work if you practice regularly and if you are able to apply it under duress and if you are not having your clothes torn from you and if the rapist has placed you in a "classic" guard in the first place.....

...
(2)Again, if gouging and scratching are ineffective (which I might add they are not) then why are they banned from NHB competitions? Simple THEY WORK TOO EASILY AND CAUSE A LOT OF DAMAGE WITH MINIMUM SKILL. Could you sweep Bob Sapp? I haven't met you but I will guarantee the answer is "No". Could you blind him in one eye and rip a piece of his face off? Hell yes!

...
(3)Try this test. Find an inexperienced lady friend, preferably slight in build, and put her on her back with a guard. Teach here the simple scissor sweep in 5 minutes or less.

(4)Then show her a double thumb gouge, face bite and kick off combination again in less than five minutes.

(5)One week later put her in the same position and get her to repeat them both. Which do you think she will be able to re-produce? Then try the same test but with "resistance" from the attacker. Which one do you think will work best?

.
1 completely contradicts your argument against bjj. Additionally how do you properly practice to "blind him in one eye and rip a piece of his face off". I'm actually pretty curious.

As for 2, most of those things were allowed in the UFC before John McCann and there are tourneys in brazil and elsewhere that allow most anything (vt). And again how do you realistically practice those things.

As for 3, 4 and 5, I agree they are unlikely to be able to either learn or do them effectively, I also doubt without practicing they'll have much success with any of the options you listed on their own.

Heck, I suck at sweeps but I wish I could teach them to my wife.

[Rice Krispies]

Eye gouges and biting and the like were banned from NHB because of politics. At first they were allowed and they made no difference. The thing is, that while they injure, they dont disable or change positions. Basically, you hurt them and then they beat your ass. Way to go. However, if you learn a REAL technique, you can disable your opponent. Lets say two people fight. One eyegouges the other guy. The other guy fights on and uses a real technique. Lets say a triangle choke. One of these guys is severely injured, but can fight on. The other just might die. Which is which?

"Try this test. Find an inexperienced lady friend, preferably slight in build, and put her on her back with a guard."

Sounding good so far.

"Teach here the simple scissor sweep in 5 minutes or less."

Oh, thats what you had in mind.

"One week later put her in the same position and get her to repeat them both. Which do you think she will be able to re-produce?"

The eye gouges and the like.

"Then try the same test but with "resistance" from the attacker. Which one do you think will work best?"

Niether. Not on me anyway. However, lets say that I know nothing. If she gouges my eyes, she's dead. Im gonna remove her hands, control them, tuck my head thank her for the adrenaline rush and beat her head in. She shouldnt have been worrying about hurting me and instead getting away. And this is if it works RIGHT. If anything goes wrong shes in evemn worse trouble.

The scissor sweep is gonna work a lot better. If it works, she has a 100% chance of being in a better position as thats what its designed for. If it fails, she can go try again as she now has space and didnt provoke a murderous response.

"How can you sweep from a sofa?"

Id triangle choke actually if someone was attacking me on a couch as my legs are higher.

"Or from a dirty alleyway?"

Easily.

"Or if you are outweighed by a drunken, slobbering man who outweighs you by 100lbs?"

Ive rolled with trained opponents of that size. They clobber me, but my techniques are still valid. If they were untrained and drunk, they wouldnt have stood a chance.

"Self-Protection and Martial Arts are NOT the same at all. One is a series of techniques to enable someone to develop physically, spiritually and emotionally where as the other can be a matter of life and death."

My martial arts IS a matter of life and death. I can easily crush, choke and strangle opponents using my basic techniques.

[Freeform]

The crux of the problem guys, is that yes, basic techniques will allow a physically inferior woman to handle a larger stronger untrained male aggressor.

The problem being is that the level of skill will take more than a 6 week course to develop and maitain.

This is the crux, can we come up with a solution?

Play nice boys,

Col

[Rice Krispies]

No, there is no other solution than hardwork. A couple seminars will not enable you to defeat predatory opponents. You nee techniques that work and you need the drive to perfect your application of them. If you want to deal out instant death, get a gun. Maybe a knife. Even then, youve got to learn to use them.

[Guerilla Fists]

And if the woman cant go the two weeks or so that t takes to learn this without getting raped theres a major problem.

I hate this kind of thinking that places the blame on the person being raped. "Oh she was dressed to get raped" "She looks like she wanted it" I find that personally sickening. No one makes a schedule to get raped it just happens.

[Guerilla Fists]

The crux of the problem guys, is that yes, basic techniques will allow a physically inferior woman to handle a larger stronger untrained male aggressor.

The problem being is that the level of skill will take more than a 6 week course to develop and maitain.

This is the crux, can we come up with a solution?

Play nice boys,

Col

I think the solution would be to focus on prevention. Traveling in pairs or larger. Maintaining awareness. Carrying pepper spray. Hopefully we would prevent a situation from escalating to where it is a do or die tactic situation.

[Rice Krispies]

"I hate this kind of thinking that places the blame on the person being raped. "Oh she was dressed to get raped" "She looks like she wanted it" I find that personally sickening. No one makes a schedule to get raped it just happens."

All Im saying is that you should be able to do a few weeks of martial arts without getting raped. Its not an everyday thing for one particular woman to be attacked, so there should be no rush. Take your time and learn actual self defense.

And the reality is that not all rapes just happen. Just like muggings. If I walk through the hood wearing what I please whenever I please just like I have a right to do, Im gonna get robbed. If I were to take the attitude that robberies "just happened" and take no steps to prevent it, that would be foolishness. A woman must acknowledge dangerous situations and avoid them. Its not her fault if she slips up and fails, but your safety is your responsibilty. There are predators and you need to prepare yorself for them. This fatalistic attitude is politically correct nonsense. The fact that women train in self defense proves that they are NOT just being acted upon and thats whats needed. You cant go through life thinking that things "just happen". You have to take a proactive apporoach to all aspects of life and prepare for all threats. Like by taking a self defense course.

[guran]

I think the solution would be to focus on prevention. Traveling in pairs or larger. Maintaining awareness. Carrying pepper spray. Hopefully we would prevent a situation from escalating to where it is a do or die tactic situation.

I absolutely agree with Eightfold Path. I used to share the "teaching" of self-defense at a modeling school. They would give us one to two hours, one time only, to work with 8 - 10 people (mostly female, all ages, sizes, shapes) and expect something useful. Given those constraints, we concentrated on awareness and prevention and briefly discussed things like kubotans, pepper spray, shoe heels, etc. We did a little bit of physical application in the hopes that something might sink in and suggested they practice with a husband/boyfriend/brother.

When we teach more in depth seminars, many of the women (no offense MA ladies, just my experience) were squeamish about hitting Bob (the heavy bag with a torso and head). We try to get them to really think about what a rape/attack would be like, and what that would mean to them and their loved ones. We ask them to decide ahead of time that they would be willing to hurt someone that was trying to hurt them. Most of all, we coach them to avoid the bad situations in the first place, knowing that you can't always do so. I find these sessions extremely stressful; statistcs say that someone among the number of people you worked with is going to get attacked. You have a very brief time to intervene and you hope that it will help.

[Guerilla Fists]

"I hate this kind of thinking that places the blame on the person being raped. "Oh she was dressed to get raped" "She looks like she wanted it" I find that personally sickening. No one makes a schedule to get raped it just happens."

All Im saying is that you should be able to do a few weeks of martial arts without getting raped. Its not an everyday thing for one particular woman to be attacked, so there should be no rush. Take your time and learn actual self defense.

And the reality is that not all rapes just happen. Just like muggings. If I walk through the hood wearing what I please whenever I please just like I have a right to do, Im gonna get robbed. If I were to take the attitude that robberies "just happened" and take no steps to prevent it, that would be foolishness. A woman must acknowledge dangerous situations and avoid them. Its not her fault if she slips up and fails, but your safety is your responsibilty. There are predators and you need to prepare yorself for them. This fatalistic attitude is politically correct nonsense. The fact that women train in self defense proves that they are NOT just being acted upon and thats whats needed. You cant go through life thinking that things "just happen". You have to take a proactive apporoach to all aspects of life and prepare for all threats. Like by taking a self defense course.

What about date rape, aquaintance rape, being drugged, incest? Did you think of that? Often times a rape will occur in a totally new and unexpected situation.

[nekogami13]

BJJ would be appropriate for the situation. Do some research,the Gracies have a rape prevention course they teach-get some info,familiarize yourself with it, see if it meets your needs.
Have you tried contacting anyone else who teaches this?

If nothing else seeking info from other sources may spark new ideas.

Good luck.

[Rice Krispies]

Im not denying the fact that a woman can do everything right and avoid dangerous situations, but still fall victim to a predator. Thats not her fault at all. Im just saying that it is possible for her to up her protection level and that the idea that she is somehow 100% uninvolved in the series of events that led to her being victimized is counterproductive.

[Freeform]

[Mod hat on]

Easy on the rape talk please gents, nobody's gone too far yet just a gentle reminder we have Juniors here. This is a serious topic that I personally think needs to be covered so feel free, I just don't want to see this degenerating like similar threads have in the past.

[Mod hat off]

Crimes like this cannot really be predicted, I can't say that I know I won't get mugged walking to my car tonight as it is actually a very slim possiblity.

As to training to defend against rape, we've always initially taught it as 'Defence against a ground strangle'. Most people don't go that extra length to think 'Why is this man on top of me between my legs?', you point that one out later, gets rid of a lot of the initial 'Ickiness'.

In a 6 week course your best bet is to aim on the prevention side IMHO.

Cheers ;)

Col

[Guerilla Fists]

You contradict yourself Rice Krisipies when you say a woman can do everything right to avoid a dangerous situation and still fall victim to a predator yet you believe she can somehow become 100% uninolved in a situation that led to being victimized. If she did everything right she acted at "100%".
Perhaps we should just agree to disagree. You've made some good points and contributions to this thread and I'm acknowledging that.

[Rice Krispies]

Sorry, you mustve misunderstood. Im saying that the idea of 100% uninvolvement is flawed and counterproductive. See? "the idea that she is somehow 100% uninvolved in the series of events that led to her being victimized is counterproductive." Im saying that a woman can work to protect herself. Im also saying that the idea of a woman not being involved in these situations is a dangerous one. Im not saying that she can be 100% uninvolved and have done everything right.

[Freeform]

Are you talking about involvement with her own protection or involvement with the attacker, your starting to lose me :confused:

Cheers

Col

[Rice Krispies]

With he own protection. I seem to not be comminicating effectively. Ill try rephrasing it.

The idea that a woman has nothing to do with her own rape is flawed. At the very least she was protecting, or attempting to protect herself. If this protection fails, she is not at fault. However, a lot of people then dismiss any thoughts on how she couldve increased her protection level. If find this counterproductive. When these ideas are used to try to defend the rapist, I agree. Throw them out. But at the same time they should be considered to benefit this woman in the future and other women.

[Guerilla Fists]

I think I understand but I still disagree. Most assaults occur where the victim knew the assailant. This means that they were in a situation where they felt comfortable but then were surprised with an attack. To become 100% uninvolved would be to walk a life full of fear, a life no one should have to accept.
Good points and counterpoints but I think we have stagnated and should just agree to disagree.

Freeform, are we staying in bounds?

Great Input Guys,
8

[Rice Krispies]

Did you see the post right above yours? I rephrased it.

[Freeform]

Freeform, are we staying in bounds?

Great Input Guys,
8

Completely, I was just warning off anything gratuitous. You guys are making great discussion.

So we're talking about prevention mostly, I still see value in a little bit of BJJesque training but as you've said, they'll most likely forget it.

Col

[Guerilla Fists]

Yes I saw the post you rephrased. You are saying that the idea of not contributing to your assault is flawed. There is always somethign that could have been done to correct the situation, correct Rice Krispies?

[tkderf]

I still see value in a little bit of BJJesque training but as you've said, they'll most likely forget it.

Col

Not only that, even if they don't forget it, a normal size women would never have the required practice to apply any kind of techniques on an enraged man with a few hours of training. Remember guys, martial arts is not only about having the right technique, it’s also about learning how to handle an emergency situation calmly and being able to find the mental strength to react appropriately under extreme stress.

How can you expect a woman to apply a technique that she did once or twice to a crazy “full size” strong man with a clear goal behind his mind? Under such a stressful situation, no woman can correctly apply a technique, and even if she did, do you think she would have the required strength to make it effective? I highly doubt so.

That’s why I believe in more of a preventive training than teaching any techniques. What I tell my g/f is quite simple: if you can’t avoid it – do anything that will instantly hurt him and then run and scream; put a finger in his eyes, bite him, scratch him, kick him in the nuts - anything.

Teaching a technique to a woman might be useful for her to impress her family in a Christmas party but not to get away from a big strong crazy rapist who is unwavering to get what he wants.

[Rice Krispies]

"Yes I saw the post you rephrased. You are saying that the idea of not contributing to your assault is flawed. There is always somethign that could have been done to correct the situation, correct Rice Krispies?"

Not quite. Im not saying that the woman is contributing to the assault, but that she is not merely being acted on. She is taking actions on her own behalf. Whether these were adequate for her protection and conducive to avoiding predators is most definitely worth a look. After all, how else can you improve?

[Rice Krispies]

"Not only that, even if they don't forget it, a normal size women would never have the required practice to apply any kind of techniques on an enraged man with a few hours of training. Remember guys, martial arts is not only about having the right technique, it’s also about learning how to handle an emergency situation calmly and being able to find the mental strength to react appropriately under extreme stress."

True.

"How can you expect a woman to apply a technique that she did once or twice to a crazy “full size” strong man with a clear goal behind his mind? Under such a stressful situation, no woman can correctly apply a technique, and even if she did, do you think she would have the required strength to make it effective? I highly doubt so."

We are still talking about BJJ here, right? If she applies her entire bodys strenght to his arm, its going to snap. Also, I agree with you about correctly applying the technique though. However, this is why "alive" training is required. She HAS to try ot on resisting opponents.

"That’s why I believe in more of a preventive training than teaching any techniques."

Agreed.

"What I tell my g/f is quite simple: if you can’t avoid it – do anything that will instantly hurt him and then run and scream; put a finger in his eyes, bite him, scratch him, kick him in the nuts - anything."

Disagree.

"Teaching a technique to a woman might be useful for her to impress her family in a Christmas party but not to get away from a big strong crazy rapist who is unwavering to get what he wants."

It will help. Ive dealt with HUGE people using my techniques. Im only 150 and Ive rolled with some large, crazy opponents. Also have done so with the disadvantage of a gi. Ive still won a large percentage of time due to better technique. If the woman has the time she can make the technniques work. If not I think she should study prevention and buy a weapon.

[tkderf]

"If she applies her entire bodys strenght to his arm, its going to snap. "

I agree with that, but what i meant is - you have to apply the technique properly in order to acheive that, which can't be done in a few hours.

"Ive dealt with HUGE people using my techniques. Im only 150 and Ive rolled with some large, crazy opponents. Also have done so with the disadvantage of a gi. Ive still won a large percentage of time due to better technique."

Again, i agree BUT how many years of practice do you have in your luggage? AAll what i said above is of course considering the fact that the woman have a 'basic' self-defense training with only a few hours of practice. It take yyears to reach a level where you will be able to win against someone much bbigger/stronger than you...

[Freeform]

Right guys, lets cut to the quick.

We have 6 weeks to teach a womens SD class, the class length is 2 hrs. Thats 12 hrs of class time, we're dealing with ordinary women here, no MA training they are mums, students, bar staff, office workers etc.

What would you put in the course to assist in the following scenarios?

Mugging
Random Assault
Rape

Consider the envirnoment.

Give me breakdown of the prevention/reaction elements you'd have in your course.

Cheers

Col

[Rice Krispies]

Avoidance, guns, pepper spray, knives, etc.

[Freeform]

Elaborate please

Col

[Rice Krispies]

Teach them the typical methods used to avoid these situations and teach them how to use some form of weaponry as well. If they dont put in the work then martial arts wont work, and I dont believe in the effectiveness cheap shots in fights. Yeh, you can go for those areas, but if youre eye gouge fails to maim him, youre dead. Weaponry can be employed just as easily, but its likely gonna work better.

[tkderf]

They were selling a kind of paintspray bottles that work like pepperspay but it also include a paint that can not be remove "at home" which "force" the guy to go at the hospital with a bright paintshop in the face, so that police can easily track him, i don't know if that is still available but you might want to find out...

[bcullen]

I have to agree with Hannibal's suggestions: The biggest challenge is to over come the squeamishness of your audience but with your limited time the best bets assuming awareness has failed and you are in mortal danger will be the eye gouge, ear pull, throat rake. Note these are not mutally exclusive. Continue striking, kicking, biting, gouging twisting, pushing, pulling or running as needed. If your not fleeing or trying to then keep attacking. If he's conscious and not curled in a fetal position crying for his mommy he's still a threat.

1) The eye gouge is actually jamming your thumb into the corner of the eye (closest to the nose) and driving into the socket attempting to remove the eyeball. If you don't get it, he's still on the defensive now, giving you an oppurtunity. If you do get it uh...it's...well, at least the assault is over.

2) Ear pull - This is pretty straight forward...grab and retract. They aren't secured as well as you may think. (like I mentioned, it's not for the squeamish).

3) Throat rake - Like strangling someone but hook the thumbs around the windpipe and draw across creating a scissor action between the thumbs. Don't actually try this on people, even if you don't tear the windpipe the trauma can cause it to swell closing the airway This means unless someone can do a tracheostomy in a big hurry this person will die.

Hammer fist and palm strikes, forearms and elbows. They do the same damage without the risk of damage to the hand that an unconditioned fist presents. Look at your fist and compare the size and density of your cheek bone to the fingers (flanges). Which do you think would fare better? Uh huh. You gave him a black eye but you lost the use of a hand and he's still attacking you.

Before things go to the ground (Assuming that running is an option): The foot stomp or knee attacks. Things that will stun and impede the attackers ability to give chase.

Awareness is always important, to keep you out of this situation or to get you out if it's too late. Awareness of self, environment, attacker(s). Can you out run them, where is a safe place, what weapons are availible to you, to them. Mental state, do you smell alcohol or suspect drug use (pain based techniques may be less effective), do they just want money or are they really out to hurt you?

[tkderf]

I think bcullen covered it all... these would be the main points to cover. Once it's covered if you still have time you might want to give some basic bjj techniques for a little complement...

[Hannibal]

Hey guys!

I've actually been away from the forums for a couple of days so I am a little behind in this debate - bear with me!

1. There seems to be a school of thought that I am saying that gouging etc is superior to a martial art. If I truly thought that was the case I have wasted the past 15years or so. My observation with regards to effectiveness is purely based around the original post of a very short seminar series.

2. Anyone who says "eye gouges don't work" has never been gouged. they are exceptionally painful and will stop you dead in your tracks. They have NEVER been allowed in ANY NHB competition - anyone who claims otherwise is wrong. I have seen some very tough brawlers lose all sense of timimng, distance and aggression when they have been poked in the eye. Why do you think Bruce Lee favoured a finger jab to the eye?

3. You will not simply make the assailant angry if you gouge them. We are not talking about a quick poke in the eye here, we are talking a full on gouge and tear. If this fails you can try again - this places teh emphasis for defence on the rapist and undermines the power base he has. Rape is as much about domination and control as sex. And if you think an unsuccessfgul gouge will annoy him, how the hell do you think he'll react when you try and do a butterfly sweep and fail miserably because you have only practiced it once?

4. I have found that women who have attended courses emphasising only "standard" MA responses (what Peter Consterdine calls "martial arts in jeans") have either an inflated sense of self-confidence or cannot remember a single thing. Either response is bad. The stark brutality of rape means that the wonderful array of holds you taught will need to work in an instant and that simply does not happen with more complex moves. You do not need to gouge an eye out to know you can do it - just put your thumbs over your training partners eyes. Teh same goes with a bite - you can nip and let go.

5. Excellent suggestions by bcullen - easy, effective strategies. Most MA'ers tend to look at self-defence from their arts perspective which is why they do not like to see "simple" techniques working effectively. A BJJ black belt will easily be able to beat a "gouger". But BOTH will be effective against a rapist, the only difference being one can be learned in minutes.

Good debate folks.

[Rice Krispies]

"2. Anyone who says "eye gouges don't work" has never been gouged. they are exceptionally painful and will stop you dead in your tracks. They have NEVER been allowed in ANY NHB competition - anyone who claims otherwise is wrong."

Youre completely wrong on this. The first UFCs had NO rules.

[YODA]

It amazes me how many view the eye gouge as some "magic pill" that negates the necessity to train in an athletic environment. I'm not saying people here are - just an observation on the topic of "eye boinks" :D

Here's another. If you can't hit me in the face with a 16oz boxing glove what makes you think you can hit me in the eye with your finger?

[Rice Krispies]

The problem with your idea is that it relies on pain compliance as opposed to actually doing something conducive too escape. Poking them in the eye is not an escape, but an incentive for them to let you go. Even if it works, youve gained nothing. Your position is just as bad as it once was. The only thing going for you is the assumption that theyll be rolling around in pain. Never count on that. You can inflict serious bodily harm and still have to fight a man, so just doing damage isnt enough. Youve got to physically stop him which eye gouging does not do. Thats why I was taught in jujitsu to snap a guys arm, pop back into mount and then snap the other one. No matter how much damage Ive just done by snapping one arm, he's definitely still a threat if not an even greater threat. Youve got to stop these people, not count on them to give up.

[Hannibal]

And how do you propose to do that on a 3 week course?

Look, we are arguing in circles here. There is no eye "poke" - it is a definite gouge. Brutal and you keep gouging until you can get away. We are not having a streetfight here, we are not in a bar - it is a rape.

Yoda, if you are on top of me attempting a rape you will not be in the range for me to hit you anyway. Without practiced grappling skill you need something else. These are women who are not fighters or MA'ers but who need something taht takes no practice and can be instantly effective.

Eye gouges are painful, but they also remove one of your senses so are not pain compliance techniques per se. All the rape victim needs is to get away and to do this pain creates a distraction. Read my original post - I said poke and push off not "poke and admire your handiwork". There is a big difference in the two.

And Rice Krispies do some research. The early UFC's did have rules - no biting or eye gouging in fact (which kind of makes my point for me)

[Rice Krispies]

There was a monetary penalty, but thats it. They could do it if they pleased to win the fight.

"There is no eye "poke" - it is a definite gouge. Brutal and you keep gouging until you can get away"

Or until they just grab youre hands.

[YODA]

Without practiced grappling skill you need something else
No - what you need is practiced grappling skill. Basic grappling skill -especially from the guard - should be a definate inclusion in the arsenal of any woman hoping to defend herself from rape.

These are women who are not fighters or MA'ers but who need something taht takes no practice and can be instantly effective.

Takes no practice and is instantly effective? There is no such "Magic pill", and the sooner people wake up to that the better.

The truth hurts - but that doesn't stop it being the truth.

[Hannibal]

Again,this is a VERY SHORT COURSE!!!!!!!!!

Shall I say that agin in case we missed it the 347th time?

IT IS A VERY SHORT COURSE!!!!

Self-defence is not about guarantees it is about options. I do not claim it is a magic pill, but I di say that they will remember it WITHOUT FURTHER PRACTICE better than any BJJ.

Just to re-iterate IT IS A SHORT COURSE NOT A COHESIVE DEFENCE PROGRAM. Please look at my responses in light of this.

"Or until they just grab youre hands."
As I have said before, you think that teaching a sweep is better? Crap. For a lengthy study and combative option yes but...*inhales*...IT IS A VERY SHORT COURSE. And anyway. if the have your hands you cannot sweep!

[Mrs Owt]

Here's another. If you can't hit me in the face with a 16oz boxing glove what makes you think you can hit me in the eye with your finger?


Women have to learn techniques they will actually be able to follow through on. In a stranger attack I would be much less likely to have any qualms about gouging eyes, but in a date rape or known assailant there is a whole new psychological element about possibly permanently harming someone that you know. You can't ignore the basic fact that some people will just not be mentally able to commit certain devastating techniques even if it means protecting themselves. I would never carry a weapon such as a knife or gun because of this. Maybe a collapsable baton or mace but I would never commit to using certain weapons, therefore they become liabilities to me when I need to react reflexively and quickly.

[Rice Krispies]

"And anyway. if the have your hands you cannot sweep!"

Unlike the eye gouge the sweep doesnt involve sticking your hands out and forcing them to grab them.

[Freeform]

So I'd be right in saying then guys that your view is that 6 week SD courses are completely ineffective as regards to physical skill?

So they shouldn't bother teaching them and focus purely on the preventative measures that can be taken?

Col

[YODA]

So I'd be right in saying then guys that your view is that 6 week SD courses are completely ineffective as regards to physical skill?

So they shouldn't bother teaching them and focus purely on the preventative measures that can be taken?

Col
If we're talking an hour a week for 6 weeks then yes - I'd say that's the case.

[bcullen]

The problem with your idea is that it relies on pain compliance as opposed to actually doing something conducive too escape. Poking them in the eye is not an escape, but an incentive for them to let you go. Even if it works, youve gained nothing. Your position is just as bad as it once was. The only thing going for you is the assumption that theyll be rolling around in pain. Never count on that. You can inflict serious bodily harm and still have to fight a man, so just doing damage isnt enough. Youve got to physically stop him which eye gouging does not do. Thats why I was taught in jujitsu to snap a guys arm, pop back into mount and then snap the other one. No matter how much damage Ive just done by snapping one arm, he's definitely still a threat if not an even greater threat. Youve got to stop these people, not count on them to give up.

Krispies,

Here is the stuff I normally don't talk about for many reasons, anyhow:

As a teenager and into my early 20's I became involved with drugs and let's say a "less then virtuous lifestyle" that put me in many very bad situations. The whole fighting and tough guy thing seems cool until you find yourself there. It's ugly, brutal and the only thing you take away are physical and emotional scars if you're lucky enough to live. That's the hard truth.

I have used those techniques. I have done the eye gouge and I'm still haunted by the screams. It's indescribable: I didn't know a person could make a sound like that. I can still hear him wailing: My eye! My eye! The sound makes your blood run cold and bile rise in your throat. The closest you can come are the screams you hear when a family is told that a relative has been killed. I can't get rid of the memories. It wakes me in the middle of the night sometimes. I had to protect myself, I'm sorry.

If I never have to use any of what I've learned ever again I will die a happy man. I pray that no one reading this ever has to use those techniques either.

[YODA]

I've gouged an eye - my guy just passed out on the spot.

[Freeform]

If we're talking an hour a week for 6 weeks then yes - I'd say that's the case.

Hell, I was meaning 2hrs a week ;)

[YODA]

Hell, I was meaning 2hrs a week ;)
Oh - that case they'd be lethal killing machines!

[Freeform]

:p

With my 12 hrs of BJJ training I can handle anyone! :rolleyes:

Col

[semphoon]

:p

With my 12 hrs of BJJ training I can handle anyone! :rolleyes:

Col

That would just be silly and naive to think like that :D

[Hannibal]

I don't think he was being entirley serious.... :)

I am a little woried by Krispies sweep fetish though. Ok you don't reach, but what is the rapist supposed to do while you set up? Try and pass?

bcullen, thanks for sharing - it must have been hard for you.

[Rice Krispies]

You dont need to do anything special to set up a sweep. Just do it.

As for the eye gouges, Im sure that the do work sometimes. Put Im not gonna make that gamble that theyl pass out.

[Hannibal]

But you ARE willing to gamble that you can teach and effective sweep to someone in a very short course with no external practice!

Look I agree that the swep is best for you AND me - but that is not the issue. Again I ask, can YOU sweep Bob Sapp? Can you gouge him? Be honest!

Happy training - whatever you use! :)

[tkderf]

can YOU sweep Bob Sapp? Can you gouge him? Be honest!



Tss... anyone can do that ;)

[teacher]

Perhaps with a limited time span for the training you should try to address awareness and the psychology of conflict.

Those who become aware may see the need for extended MA practice and experience.
I met a lovely self defence instructor through work who gave us a 2 hour course with all the usual wrist grab, hair pull stuff and ended it by wishing everyone the best of luck cos what he taught us would only work if we were prepared to practice it every day and he hoped that we would join a club.

[Rice Krispies]

Bob Sapp is gonna kill me regardless.

"But you ARE willing to gamble that you can teach and effective sweep to someone in a very short course with no external practice!"

No, not really. I would teach prevention and weapons.

[Ghost Frog]

We have 6 weeks to teach a womens SD class, the class length is 2 hrs. Thats 12 hrs of class time, we're dealing with ordinary women here, no MA training they are mums, students, bar staff, office workers etc.

Give me breakdown of the prevention/reaction elements you'd have in your course.

I'd agree with most of you, in that I don't think that you can learn to apply most ju jitsu techniques effectively within 12 hours of class time, but, just to add my two bob...

1) Ickiness The main thing that needs to be breeched with ordinary women is, as Freeform suggested, the 'ickiness' factor. You big strong fellas are much more happy with the idea of hurting someone who hurts you than the average non-MAist female. We had a discussion about this on the Women's Self Defense section, where we looked at using various methods of getting women to 'go for it' on strikes, gouges, etc. There were some very good suggestions.

2) Space As other people have mentioned, it's not enough to just look at what do do when you get into the physical position of having someone pinning you down. I've been doing groundwork for years, but I wouldn't fancy my chances if I was pinned by a much larger, violent attacker.

As Geoff Thompson is says, it's vital to look at the beginnings of an encounter. I'm a fan of the drills that the police do for warning people who are getting too close- 'Stand back', etc, etc. It's important to be clear in your head what is and isn't acceptable behaviour and to be assertive when that space is encroached.

3) Verbals Sexual assaults on women (and many assaults in general) are very often preceeded by a huge amount of verbal intimidation which 'softens up' the victim. This is particularly true where the assault is by someone known to the victim. Once again, you need to teach women to be more assertive and confident in reacting to unwanted behaviour.

Think about when people are asked to do Kiai's (or whatever) for the first time in MA classes. They don't even want to shout when everyone else is doing it, so there is little chance that they will tell someone to 'move away' in a frightening situation. It needs to be drilled into people again and again. Make them shout and scream!

4)Whatever Overall, I think you blokes are being a bit hard on yourselves when it comes to the 'effectiveness' of the techniques for women. :)

According to research by criminal pyschologists, the more a woman physically resists an attack in it's early stages, the greater the chance she has of getting away. They want a victim, not an opponent.

So, if you lot teach a woman to punch, rip, gouge, palm heel, elbow, kick, rip, spit or shout more effectively and more assertively, you are hugely improving her chances of getting away. In addition to the fact that people become more aware and more assertive in doing martial arts and so are less likely to be attacked in the first place.

[Tatsumaru]

The only thing i have to add to this is that i would not think knives and guns are such a great idea. If you have never fired a gun before it is unlikely you would be able to do so and hit anything under the kind of stressfull situation we are talking about. In fact, i would say that it is more likely the gun would be wrestled from you if you are in the kind of close in struggle that is being talked about. As for knives, i find it difficult to believe that many women would actually be capable of summoning the courage and strength of will to stab somebody in the situation described. The ickiness factor is a real issue here, but i guess it depends on the person. I personally doubt that any of my female friends would be able to do it. Pepper spray and the rest are a very good idea though, prevention does seem to be the way to go.

[Rice Krispies]

They ARE gonna have to put in some work. Of course they cant do the things initially. Thats why theyre there. So they can.

[gojuman]

I disagree, eventhough the sweep and stuff would be hard to pull off. The basics would help greatly. Keeping the attacker away with an open guard, can buy some time and will make the attacker think twice. kick bite and stratch should be a option, but if the attck is always that close, it proabably too late.

In a game of wrestling maybe this would work, but a fight to protect oneself in a rape situation requires real fighting. Eye Gouge! Ear clap! Scratch! Bite! Drive fingers or fingernails into the throat just below the adam's apple.
If a rape victom trys to wrestle and hope to pin her attacker with a NHB arm bar or choke my bet is going to be on the attacker every time. If you can kick out a knee or kick the groin before the mount attempt do that too.

[Rice Krispies]

Most of what Ive seen in this thread so far has been valid arguments that Ive disagreed with. Your argument is not. Grappling can be used in real fighting. "NHB armbars" (everyone else just calls them armbars) and chokes are NOT used to pin. Chokes kill people. Joint locks such as the armbar cripple them. If I use those techniques with truely malicious intent, there is no game. Youre gonna die. To say that she wouldnt have time to learn the techniques is a short seminar is a fair point that I disagree with. To say that they just dont work is ignorance.

[KenpoDavid]

I don't want to get into the arguments in this thread about effectiveness of BJJ or complicated technical grappling after 12 hours of lessons. I just want to share the technique my style teaches, and if ti seems easy to learn in that short time then that's OK, and if not then forget it.
The technique sets up from the attacker having his legs on the outside of the victim's legs but I think it will work either way.

ti begins with the victim striking the shortribs of the attacker with both hands using palmheel or thumb-pointed fist (I forget the name for it now but its a fist with the thumb knuckle pushed up, strike with the thumb knuckle)

This should immediately be followed by downward strikes to the attacker's forearms just below the elbows. There are some presure points there but don;t worry aoubt that - just strike hard trying to bend the elbow. This should bring the attacker's head into range.

I suppose if the attacker already had his head bent down close to the victim the first strikes might not be needed. I'll have to look into that...

Now, place your left hand behind the attacker head and the right hand across the nose, hooking the fingers into the attackers left eye socket (gouge away!). Twist the head by pulling your left and pushing your right. Do this vigorously enough and you might kill him. But short of that, enough twist will cause your attacker to roll off of you to your left. Straighten the left leg as he rolls off so that it is not trapped under him.

Now at this point we are taught to follow them over, get a mount on them, and strike to the throat or eyes. But if I was trying to escape a rape I might just let go get up and run. And yell for help. If you have any luck at all the atacker could have one or more cracked floating ribs, a damaged eye and a sprained neck. These aren't debilitating injuries but they might put him out of the mood for rape, or buy you a few seconds head start in the foot race to safety.

[gojuman]

Most of what Ive seen in this thread so far has been valid arguments that Ive disagreed with. Your argument is not. Grappling can be used in real fighting. "NHB armbars" (everyone else just calls them armbars) and chokes are NOT used to pin. Chokes kill people. Joint locks such as the armbar cripple them. If I use those techniques with truely malicious intent, there is no game. Youre gonna die. To say that she wouldnt have time to learn the techniques is a short seminar is a fair point that I disagree with. To say that they just dont work is ignorance.

I did not say that these techniques do not work and yes they can be very effective in a self defense situation. But, if you are talking about a woman being wrestled into a rape position by what I am assuming is a stronger man then she as the victom is better off striking , biting, eye gouging, etc..
I would not encourage any woman or man for that matter to try and wrestle out of a situation where they are out weighed and weeker.
(The NHB arm bar was a reference to No Holds Barred techniques, and given the right situation the arm bar and chokes are as devistatiing as you mention)

[Rice Krispies]

I beat larger opponents all the time. And I suck. If someone untrained initiates grappling and you have anything near reasonable ability, you can kick their ass regardless of size. Chokes and jointlocks will work no matter the size or strength of the opponent. Now, someone incapable of using these due to skill may actually be better off with the tactics you suggested, but thats not at all what you said. If you can use these skills you'll be far better off doing so than trying to rely on eye gouges and biting. Chokes are absolute. They can be a 300lb PCP Incredible Hulk impersonator, but they will sleep. Jointlocks disable limbs. Pop a joint or two and theyre done. Not as cold as chokes though which is why you still finish them with one. You can poke them if you want though. See how far it gets you. Im not gonna throw all my training out the window though due to giving up a little weight. Im gonna snap their limbs and put them to sleep. And thats if Im nice.

[gojuman]

I beat larger opponents all the time. And I suck. If someone untrained initiates grappling and you have anything near reasonable ability, you can kick their ass regardless of size. Chokes and jointlocks will work no matter the size or strength of the opponent. Now, someone incapable of using these due to skill may actually be better off with the tactics you suggested, but thats not at all what you said. If you can use these skills you'll be far better off doing so than trying to rely on eye gouges and biting. Chokes are absolute. They can be a 300lb PCP Incredible Hulk impersonator, but they will sleep. Jointlocks disable limbs. Pop a joint or two and theyre done. Not as cold as chokes though which is why you still finish them with one. You can poke them if you want though. See how far it gets you. Im not gonna throw all my training out the window though due to giving up a little weight. Im gonna snap their limbs and put them to sleep. And thats if Im nice.
Never throw away your training. We may not be arguing about the same thing. I am trying to give advice to some one (women in particular) who are defending them selves in a rape situation. You are right to say that chokes and joint manipulation are great techniques. They are,however, tricky to perform even with the best of training. If you are skilled enough to get someone in a choke or arm lock it is going to have to be preceded by some other technique to distract them. ie . Poke their eye out then get them into a joint manipulation to pop an elbow or to snap the wrist. I am not saying that what you are proposing is impossible, because these things are very possible. It's just that in a rape situation your techniques might need a little pre-technique to make them work.
Teaching self defense has to be workable for the average. So, if I look around my office there are 15 women of various sizes and shapes and there are about 8 men, also of diferent sizes ages and shapes. If I imagine any one of these women defending themselves against any one of these men I can see only 1 woman being able to out manouver the weakest man if she was properly trained of course. I am basing my hypothosis purely on imagination and observation of their physical strength. I would say that if these women were trained to poke, claw, bite,etc. their chances of winning would be a lot greater than if they were sent them to a grappling class for a any length of time.

[Rice Krispies]

Im gonna concede the point on not teaching grappling during a seminar. I personally wouldnt teach any hand to hand, but whatever. What I have a problem with in your argument is this: " I would say that if these women were trained to poke, claw, bite,etc. their chances of winning would be a lot greater than if they were sent them to a grappling class for a any length of time." You seem to be saying that no matter how much training women get theyll always be better of scratching and biting which I find ridiculous. By your logic when a huge 200lb wrestler Id be better off scrathing and biting because Im weaker. NO.

Also I take exception to your comments about set ups. If some fool is rushing into the open gaurd, theres nothing to set up. He's going RIGHT INTO a lock, choke or sweep. he wont see it coming either. Anyone who knows about grappling know that thats not where you want to be. Its a very strong defensinve position.

[gojuman]

Im gonna concede the point on not teaching grappling during a seminar. I personally wouldnt teach any hand to hand, but whatever. What I have a problem with in your argument is this: " I would say that if these women were trained to poke, claw, bite,etc. their chances of winning would be a lot greater than if they were sent them to a grappling class for a any length of time." You seem to be saying that no matter how much training women get theyll always be better of scratching and biting which I find ridiculous. By your logic when a huge 200lb wrestler Id be better off scrathing and biting because Im weaker. NO.

Also I take exception to your comments about set ups. If some fool is rushing into the open gaurd, theres nothing to set up. He's going RIGHT INTO a lock, choke or sweep. he wont see it coming either. Anyone who knows about grappling know that thats not where you want to be. Its a very strong defensinve position.

Please do not take exception. Try to think in the majority of situations. sure if you are 200lbs and are defending your self from your back you will do very well. I am referring to Miss Average, which is what this thread was asking.

[Rice Krispies]

In a rape situation the opponent is taking the back or attacking the open gaurd. BJJ and other grappling styles deal with both of these very well. So front or back doesnt matter. Also, I only said my OPPONENT was 200lbs. Im 145. A woman, with grappling training can grapple. If she doesnt have the training she cant. You seem to be under the impression that being smaller or being a woman somehow negates skill. Thats comepletly untrue. This is based on your statement that with any lenght of grappling training, the woman is still better off scratching and biting. Thats BS.