Ellis Amdur
21-Jun-2011, 07:23 AM
In a thread over at the ninjutsu forum, it was posted:Grandmaster Hatsumi has previously stated that he will allow historians to examine the scrolls in his company, but he will not permit them to be taken off-site for independent verification; which is a necessary requirement by koryu scholars for the establishment of traditional Japanese martial arts.
I've seen this statement over and over again - or one like it - but it's not based on fact. [Whether Hatsumi actually said it or not, I've got no idea, but this "necessary requirement blah blah blah," is not so].
As has been stated in the thread, many schools do not have makimono from earlier generations. Many menkyo holders only have the scroll or document their teacher gave them. In fact, most of the schools I am aware of that have documents from centuries past are family schools, or more likely, an individual purchased documents from previous generations at antique shops or estate sales.
Now, as for authentication, who is going to do this? There is no koryu committee, no central repository, nor is there an authorizing body, of scholars to whom one sends one's scrolls to be carbon 14 dated. However, there are organizations, such as the Kobudo Shinkokai. Let's say I want to join as a member of Toda-ha Buko-ryu. I present the menjyo that Nitta sensei gave me. If my lineage is sound, and the school historically verified, that's it. I don't have to have documents of previous generations in my possession. However, problems would arrive were I to claim membership of a school of which there are no historical accounts, no older documents in museums, collections, whatever. OR - if I claimed to be the lineal successor of a school, which has a historical gap - for example, "yes, it existed in 1670, but it died out." And here I show up in 2011 with no proof, beyond, perhaps my teacher, that it existed in the interim.
Thus, if I show documents without support (either bringing them in to another location, or inviting people to my home to view them), then I won't be able to join the club. And that's all it is - a dues paying club, that has certain criteria to join.
As for Mr. Hatsumi, I'm not posting this to discuss his legitimacy - I bowed out of that discussion a long time ago. I'm simply posting to contradict the suggestion that his legitimacy hangs on the word of a mythic committee which demands one hand over one's personal documents. None such exists.
Best
Ellis Amdur
I've seen this statement over and over again - or one like it - but it's not based on fact. [Whether Hatsumi actually said it or not, I've got no idea, but this "necessary requirement blah blah blah," is not so].
As has been stated in the thread, many schools do not have makimono from earlier generations. Many menkyo holders only have the scroll or document their teacher gave them. In fact, most of the schools I am aware of that have documents from centuries past are family schools, or more likely, an individual purchased documents from previous generations at antique shops or estate sales.
Now, as for authentication, who is going to do this? There is no koryu committee, no central repository, nor is there an authorizing body, of scholars to whom one sends one's scrolls to be carbon 14 dated. However, there are organizations, such as the Kobudo Shinkokai. Let's say I want to join as a member of Toda-ha Buko-ryu. I present the menjyo that Nitta sensei gave me. If my lineage is sound, and the school historically verified, that's it. I don't have to have documents of previous generations in my possession. However, problems would arrive were I to claim membership of a school of which there are no historical accounts, no older documents in museums, collections, whatever. OR - if I claimed to be the lineal successor of a school, which has a historical gap - for example, "yes, it existed in 1670, but it died out." And here I show up in 2011 with no proof, beyond, perhaps my teacher, that it existed in the interim.
Thus, if I show documents without support (either bringing them in to another location, or inviting people to my home to view them), then I won't be able to join the club. And that's all it is - a dues paying club, that has certain criteria to join.
As for Mr. Hatsumi, I'm not posting this to discuss his legitimacy - I bowed out of that discussion a long time ago. I'm simply posting to contradict the suggestion that his legitimacy hangs on the word of a mythic committee which demands one hand over one's personal documents. None such exists.
Best
Ellis Amdur