Question

[robocoastie]

Howdy,

What are Koryu dojos like? Are they basically classical jujutsu with some classes set aside for weapons training? Also is Kobudo (Okinawan weapons) taught with that?

I suspect weapons training is one that which makes BBT popular but it's not the only way to get weapons with H2H training; I know Internal Kung Fu teachers who have sword, horn knives, staff, and polearms as part of the curriculum.

Thanks ahead of time. I live where MA schools are dominated by TKD or Rosenbach's (Bussey's old partner) modern mix of stuff.

**************Edit**********
For anyone who comes in late, see post #10 for a more refined question.
Thanks!
*******************************

[fifthchamber]

Ummm...You might be better served by reading some of the essays over on www.koryu.com or perhaps something by Dave Lowry or Wayne Muromoto...

Your question seems to imply that all Koryu are the same, and that all dojo do the same things? They don't, so it'll be impossible to answer...

My dojo focuses on Jujutsu, since that's the "main" staple of a sogo budo like Takeuchi Ryu, but we start with Iai, then do ukemi and warmups and then taijutsu followed by Bo, and usually end with kogusoku...In the morning training anyway...Afternoons is different...But that's only my Dojo, and even in my school not all the classes are taught like that..We do it like that in Nakano because it's makes sense..Iai to warm up, then a more thorough warm up, then taijutsu while we're all fresh and then bo to build a sweat up and work on flow, and then Kogusoku to tie it all back together again in the end...But no one else in Koryu would train like that...Since it's all different

See what I mean? It might be worth re-thinking your question somewhat? Perhaps you want one specific schools run-through? Or just a specific weapons school? In Kenjutsu Ryuha you won't find anyone practising Jujutsu since it's NOT Ken...(Unless they DO Jujutsu...), and in many Jujutsu Dojo you'd not find people training Yari...So you need to refine your question somewhat to make it answerable..

All the best..

[fifthchamber]

And Okinawan Kobudo is Okinawan, and wouldn't be trained outside of an Okinawan Kobudo Dojo...

You do understand what Koryu is I presume?

[Kogusoku]

Howdy,

What are Koryu dojos like? Are they basically classical jujutsu with some classes set aside for weapons training? Also is Kobudo (Okinawan weapons) taught with that?

I suspect weapons training is one that which makes BBT popular but it's not the only way to get weapons with H2H training; I know Internal Kung Fu teachers who have sword, horn knives, staff, and polearms as part of the curriculum.

Thanks ahead of time. I live where MA schools are dominated by TKD or Rosenbach's (Bussey's old partner) modern mix of stuff.

robocoastie,

Koryu dojo are like koryu ryuha themselves; They differ from ryuha to ryuha. It is very important to note that there are no absolutes in koryu. Each school is individual in history, theory, technique, strategy and training methodology. Thus, no over generalizations can be made.

Some dojo can be incredibly strict, while others are rather lax. Some teachers will show you everything, other teachers will want to see you actually work for the knowledge by you doing your own research and actually showing that you have an interest in the ryuha in question.

Example: Jigen-ryu heiho demonstrate in hakama & montsuki. But training at the Togo heihosho is conducted in plain clothes. In Summer, it's the norm to see students train in t-shirts and jeans.

The ryuha I trained in also were varied in how training went and what clothing was required; For Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, the students wore judogi and for embu, wore judogi, hakama and hachimaki (called teppi in the ryu).

For Araki-ryu, you were expected to always wear keikogi, hakama, tabi and daisho. Even when doing polearm or chain weapons you were always expected to keep the kodachi in your obi.

To answer your question, no, they are not simply jujutsu dojo that train in weaponry. Some jujutsu ryuha don't even go beyond basic usages of the weapon in the confines of the kata contained in the traditiion.

Other ryuha are as Fifthchamber has stated, sogo-budo (comprehensive martial arts) where jujutsu is in the curriculum as are other weapons disciplines.

Please bear in mind that in mainland Japan, kobudo (古武道) simply means old martial ways and is basically an interchangable term to koryu bujutsu (古流武術), or old school military arts. Kobudo is an umbrella term for armed and unarmed martial systems from mainland Japan. However, to cut down on confusion, it is acceptable to refer to the term as Nihon No Kobudo (日本の古武道)

Okinawa or Ryukyu kobudo are martial disciplines that originate from the Ryukyu archipelago. Armed and unarmed martial disciplines. Weapons disciplines that include sai, eku, tonfa, nunchaku, rokushakubo etc are usually called as above, Okinawa Kobudo (沖縄古武道), or Ryukyu Kobudo (琉球古武道)

[robocoastie]

thanks! You understood me correct. In a nutshell it really varies how much any given school teaches.

This is why I had to include in my question that my only exposure to how weapons systems are taught is thru the (insert your own adjective) Bussey/Rosenbach modern ninja schools or the occassional TKD school who toss in an escrima form or nunchaku form.

Yes I know about koryu.com (great site) but as to just how they are actually taught in a school today I don't know and figured yall would.

thanks!
Rob

[Chris Parker]

thanks! You understood me correct. In a nutshell it really varies how much any given school teaches.

How much any given school teaches? No, not quite. Exactly what makes up the syllabus of any given Ryu-ha, yeah.

Remember that a Koryu system is not a defined thing the way a Karate system is. It's like asking if you learn weapons in martial art schools, or just kicking and punching; the first question is "which martial art schools are you talking about?" It's exactly the same in Koryu (as Steve and Ben have already said).

This is why I had to include in my question that my only exposure to how weapons systems are taught is thru the (insert your own adjective) Bussey/Rosenbach modern ninja schools or the occassional TKD school who toss in an escrima form or nunchaku form.

And thanks for the context of where you're coming from, but you obviously realise that these are nothing to do with Koryu schools whatsoever (Bussey's early training in the Bujinkan would be the closest, although the Bujinkan simply isn't Koryu in a number of ways, and Bob moved away from that very early on). So I wouldn't be looking to make any real comparrison between them myself.

Yes I know about koryu.com (great site) but as to just how they are actually taught in a school today I don't know and figured yall would.

Once again, the first question is "which Koryu?", followed by "which dojo?". I have had exposure to a number of Koryu systems, including a couple of Kenjutsu systems (one of which features a large range of other weaponry), a Jujutsu system (that includes some weaponry), an Iai system, a Sogo Bujutsu system (based around the sword), a Naginata system, and a few others. And each are quite different to each other in many ways, with some very strict and formal, with little to no deviation to what is shown, others an exploration of movement within the teachings, others starting basic, and refining as you go, and so on. They have been relaxed and fun, or very strict, and anywhere in between.

So while we do have an idea as to how they are taught today, it's like asking how martial arts are taught today, the question really is that general.

thanks!
Rob

[ScottUK]

A koryu dojo is a tardis, but without the time travel.

I kid ye not.

[pgsmith]

A koryu dojo is a tardis, but without the time travel.
And here, Mexican food has been forbidden before class to avoid the tardis sound. :)

[ScottUK]

Hehe.

I should elaborate - the study of koryu is like walking around the tardis. :D

[robocoastie]

Yes I know they aren't koryu, they're merely a reference point to how I've seen weapons training outside the US Military and Internal Kung Fu taught.

'twas an invitation as to how anyone here trains. I'll start over, maybe that will help.

Is there anyone here who wants to volunteer what Koru Bujutsu style(s) they train in?
If so:
a) is it a school that teaches a few of them together packaged like or just one or your option?
b) if you don't have a school and it seems finding one in the West is very difficult, how do you practice?

[Langenschwert]

b) if you don't have a school and it seems finding one in the West is very difficult, how do you practice?

I go overseas to train koryu and then come back home.

You're not going to learn a koryu from a book, sorry. And this is coming from a HEMA practicioner... we DO learn from books at least in part. But it isn't Koryu. Doing HEMA well requires a background in other martial arts (wrestling, Jujutsu and something like Jogo do Pau are ideal) or being taught by someone who does. In Koryu you preserve the Art, in HEMA you reconstruct it. Analagous, complimentary, but separate endeavours.

NOTE: this one will likely rattle feathers with the learn by book/video crowd so please no arguments about that, I think we all know that is difficult to do but we also realize for many that is the only option so I'll say right now any attempts to do that is merely scratching our itch and accepting that we very likely are not doing it right but darn it we're having fun instead of being a couch potato :)

Fun is great. I'm not about to tell you you're having Badwrongfun. It's none of my business. However, what if one day you get the opportunity to learn koryu? Then you'll have to unlearn YEARS of bad habits which will actually SLOW your progress.

Much better to find a good martial arts school that will teach you GOOD habits that will give you a foundation to learn a koryu should you eventually find one. Perhaps the OP is already doing that. Otherwise you're stabbing yourself in the foot. Perhaps literally. :) Think about it... what's going to help you learn koryu... years of Iaido or jujutsu or swinging a sword around without any guidance? How about 10 years of classical fencing? That will teach you to control your body to a very fine degree... an excellent skill for koryu, or any other MA.

Now, if you're not willing or able to travel, then koryu isn't for you right now if there's none in your area. Travelling for two or three hours to the dojo is fairly common. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

BUT if you have no plans to EVER do a serious sword art, then fill your boots. Have at 'er and have a jolly good bash. As long as no one gets hurt, it's fine by me.

Best regards,

-Mark

[robocoastie]

ok thanks. What does HEMA mean?

thanks!

[pgsmith]

Historical European Martial Arts.

I currently practice Mugai ryu, which is a koryu sword art. There is no empty hand with it, but our particular branch of Mugai ryu also practices tanjo, kusarigama, and jo. I used to practice Sekiguchi ryu battojutsu, which is primarily a sword art. It split off from the main jujutsu line several generations back, but the main line is attempting to incorporate the sword portion of the curriculum back into their line.

[Kogusoku]

A koryu dojo is a tardis, but without the time travel.

I kid ye not.

And when you enter a ryu, it's bigger on the inside!

[Kogusoku]

Yes I know they aren't koryu, they're merely a reference point to how I've seen weapons training outside the US Military and Internal Kung Fu taught.

'twas an invitation as to how anyone here trains. I'll start over, maybe that will help.

Is there anyone here who wants to volunteer what Koru Bujutsu style(s) they train in?
If so:
a) is it a school that teaches a few of them together packaged like or just one or your option?
b) if you don't have a school and it seems finding one in the West is very difficult, how do you practice?

Some of the posters here have given less than subtle hints as to what they do.

[robocoastie]

Thanks all! And why so rude Kogusoke. Fine I'll not let the door hit me in the ass on the way out.

[Hannibal]

That wasn't rude...if you want rude keep poking him

[Dean Winchester]

No not rude at all.

Don't confuse directness with bad manners.

If you read up on Koryu you will see why you will get certain answers.

[Kogusoku]

By subtle hints, I meant that he had a humpload of clues to ascertain who did what in koryu.

Dear Lord! If the young fella has such thin skin already, and noone's been rude yet, forget it! :bang:

I haven't been rude on this thread. YET.

[GaryWado]

That wasn't rude...if you want rude keep poking him

I wouldn't advise that lol.

Gary

[Dean Winchester]

I wouldn't advise that lol.

Gary

I agree although it is fun to be introduced to the mat in new and interesting ways.

:cool:

[ScottUK]

Is there anyone here who wants to volunteer what Koru Bujutsu style(s) they train in?
If so:
a) is it a school that teaches a few of them together packaged like or just one or your option?
b) if you don't have a school and it seems finding one in the West is very difficult, how do you practice?I will play:

I train in iaido and jodo under the BKA/ZNKR - and both arts have modern (seitei) and old (koryu) elements. Both are trained equally (by me but some in the same org practice more seitei than koryu) and both are equally important IMHO (but for different reasons). However, seitei & koryu practice is a thread on its own, so I will leave this and instead, point your question at my kenjutsu:

I practice Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu kenjutsu under the 11th soke, Iwami Toshio Harukatsu. He is based in Kitakyushu, Japan. I am based in the West Midlands, England. I have trained for 11 years in HNIR kenjutsu, am monkasei and Iwami-soke's representative in the UK.

a) HNIR only practices HNIR.

b) I practice with my teacher whenever possible - when he travels to Europe to teach, and when I can, in Japan. When not training directly under him, I apply what I have learned from him from previous study under him, and try to improve my seiho until we see each other again (and he can kick the crap out of me again).

However, your (b) question really is asking how to learn without having a teacher.

You cannot. End of.

DVDs, books, Anime, YouTube, XMA, backyard study, fencing your idiot friends with shinai and hockey gloves. All a waste of time and good air.

[beer_belly]

While I practice the modern ZNKR arts kendo / seitei iaido / seitei jodo - my koryu is SMR jodo which I do with a school that only practices SMR - this is a comprehensive koryu school that has various sets of jo kata and also incorporates a range of subsumed arts including kenjutsu, jutte, kusarigama, tanjo. It is a package - you train in whatever the senior says you are training in when you turn up. Normally the range of what you are allowed to train in grows with time - I started omote (first set jodo), then introduced to kenjutsu, then chuden (second set jodo) + ranai (third set jodo), then tanjo, then kage (fourth set jodo)..... so about half way through the curriculum now.

Sensei is in Tokyo - been training with him for 8 years - I try to go there at least once a year - I have been introduced to essentially each stage there, then come home and practice. I have seniors here in Australia that I try to travel to once a month and that helps with the ingraining of the new material. I cant deny that progress is slow compared to people with regular access to licenced instruction - but there is no substitute if I wish to do koryu - it has speeded up as my base of school specific knowlege has grown.

Due to the differences between lines of SMR books, dvds etc are not usually any use except as basic memory joggers - the only detailed help comes from my notes and video of Sensei as he demonstrated and explained each kata.

There is no point in practicing koryu from commercial or online materials without actually joining a specific school to get the framework.

[fifthchamber]

Is there anyone here who wants to volunteer what Koru Bujutsu style(s) they train in?
If so:
a) is it a school that teaches a few of them together packaged like or just one or your option?
b) if you don't have a school and it seems finding one in the West is very difficult, how do you practice?

Might as well...Bored at work...As Steve (kindly) pointed out, I have already stated as much, but anyways...

I train in Takeuchi Ryu Kogusoku (not "kogosoke") Koshi no Mawari... Jujutsu..

a) It's sogo bujutsu...

b) I didn't have anything close to me in London, or I did, but nothing Koryu...So I moved location to somewhere a little more open for Koryu work..

[Kogusoku]

Might as well...Bored at work...As Steve (kindly) pointed out, I have already stated as much, but anyways...

I train in Takeuchi Ryu Kogusoku (not "kogosoke") Koshi no Mawari... Jujutsu..

a) It's sogo bujutsu...

b) I didn't have anything close to me in London, or I did, but nothing Koryu...So I moved location to somewhere a little more open for Koryu work..

Sosuishi-ryu Kumiuchi koshi no mawari, Araki-ryu Kogusoku and Takeuchi-ryu Bichu-den.

Ditto for my answer.

I moved to Japan because there wasn't any koryu. Did a lot of judo on the side and after ten years, had to move back to the UK. I now run two dojo for koryu which I keep seperate. I advertise for one, but not for the other just yet.

[ScottUK]

robocoastie is quiet at the moment?

[Chris Parker]

Yes I know they aren't koryu, they're merely a reference point to how I've seen weapons training outside the US Military and Internal Kung Fu taught.

'twas an invitation as to how anyone here trains. I'll start over, maybe that will help.

What I was getting at, though, is that Koryu does not equal weapons training, so discussing your experience in weaponry systems as a starting point for a Koryu discussion doesn't necessarily work. But to your questions....

I've been wondering about answering these, for a few reasons, so my answers may not be completely forthcoming, but perhaps some indication can be found....

Is there anyone here who wants to volunteer what Koru Bujutsu style(s) they train in?

Right. Er, how to put this... I am a training member in a couple of sword-based Koryu systems as part of informal study groups. In each case I am training with/under people who have recieved training under very qualified people, although they are not authorised instructors themselves. That said, the link to the authorised instructors is there, and is essential.

Because the training groups are not officially under the authority of an instructor in those systems, I am not exactly at liberty to say which Ryu-ha they are, as I do not wish to misrepresent those arts, and I do not have the authority to represent those arts.

Hmm, that seemed to go well.

Add to that some experience in a Jujutsu system that I am hoping to start officially in the next month or so (Hontai Yoshin Ryu, I am fortunate enough to have one of the rare teachers of that system outside of Japan basically in my backyard), and have been invited to join another study group of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu under a 4th Dan, although the timing isn't the best, and that may really be too much on my plate!

A quick look through my posts may indicate the arts I haven't named, though.... and, I must say, I am incredibly proud to have even the slightest association with these arts. At present we are working towards official recognition in both.

If so:
a) is it a school that teaches a few of them together packaged like or just one or your option?

Each Koryu is seperate and distinct, with the only real connection between them is that I attend the sessions for each. They are single arts, not packaged together.

b) if you don't have a school and it seems finding one in the West is very difficult, how do you practice?

I have been incredibly fortunate, in that I have managed to be in a place and time where circumstances and my incesant questioning of any source available to me have put me in contact with persons from the exact Ryu-ha I am most interested in learning and studying. So while I have a number of other Koryu around me (Tatsumi Ryu and Toda-ha Buko Ryu, amongst others), many of which I attended classes of, either as a participant or a viewer, they were not what my personality was looking for.

If these systems were not available to me in my present location, then I would have two options: move, or accept that I couldn't train in them. Without someone to guide you, and access to experienced and qualified practitioners and teachers, there is no way to learn these arts. At all. I think we've all said that a few times, though....

Well, I hope I didn't cross too far beyond where I was supposed to say there!

[GaryWado]

robocoastie is quiet at the moment?

Seems to have taken his point to another forum on the board:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102129

[robocoastie]

no, I've read and like the answers. Got a lot more info about Koryu now thanks from more people than the "subtle hints" rude comment assumed, guess he thought the few who subtly answered were the only people that mattered.

You see what I've read before about them is simply what it is like http://www.koryu.com/ gives. But not how its actually practiced; what is practiced in any schools of it, if multiple "arts" are taught etc...

thanks again.
Rob

[robocoastie]

Seems to have taken his point to another forum on the board:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102129

ahhh no I didn't, I had a question not a "point" duh. You'll also notice I gave some "thanks" button responses.

[GaryWado]

ahhh no I didn't, I had a question not a "point" duh. You'll also notice I gave some "thanks" button responses.

Duh!! silly me lol.

[fifthchamber]

To be honest, if you had read most of (or even a fair section of, or just one or two articles of - ) Koryu.com you'd still have had a very good idea about where your question fell down though...

I'd suggest a re-read and perhaps accompany it with some youtube video of the arts you're reading about...

Reading helps...

[robocoastie]

yes thank you. done here now. some of you have been a help. What doya want me to say huh? Is this not a conversation site? Is that not the purpose of internet forums? I'm done here, I pity whoever else comes to your club here with any questions.

bye.

[Dean Winchester]

yes thank you. done here now. some of you have been a help. What doya want me to say huh? Is this not a conversation site? Is that not the purpose of internet forums? I'm done here, I pity whoever else comes to your club here with any questions.

bye.

N00bs come here and get welcomed as long as they don't act like eejits.

People from the other parts of MAP come here and get welcomed and helpful responses as long as they don't act like eejits.


You have got some answers and then had a little hissy because you thought someone hasn't fallen over themselves enough for you.

Maybe instead of moaning you should again read those articles you claim to have read and then look at your conduct on here.

[Kogusoku]

I just logged on.

I'm in Japan at present and still jet-lagged after my first keiko of the visit.

Thread closed after reading more of the same BS, I think this forum has run it's course.

Hissy fits aren't allowed on this part of the forum.

Rudeness wasn't a factor of my prior post, it was giving hints. Something to open your eyes with.