[Freestyle/Sporting MA] top 3 martial arts mix [Archive]

TkdWarrior

24-Oct-2002, 07:27 AM

hmm top 3 martial arts... policitcal correct answers is they can't exist.. how can u judge a MA... :D yup i m tryin to get into politics..
big bucks there ;)
but my answer would be..
it depends upon the choice u hav first if u want any art which gives u flexibility, strength n long term benefits u tend to go into internal styles...
if u want somethin which works on totally self defence then u tend to go for external styles which can be easily learnt in minimum time so internal styles will not much of help...
if u need medals n certificates u tend to go with arts that r in sports...they'll keep u fit n healthy too...
so wat's the deal...it's again came down to the person...Doh... why i end up here always ... m really confused ...i think i need break...
-TkdWarrior-

Martial Sloth

24-Oct-2002, 08:17 AM

Strange combo, but I like the mix of Aikido (throws), jujitsu/judo (grappling)..and Aikijitsu (strikes and takedowns). They complement each other very well, resulting in a well-rounded combat/self-defense style.

Freeform

24-Oct-2002, 09:41 AM

Aikido, Sombo and Thai Boxing. I think that covers all ranges/weapons. I'll probably have changed my mind by tommorrow!

Thanx

stump

24-Oct-2002, 10:43 AM

I'm assuming you're talking about for overall combat application and covering all ranges.

I'd say Muay thai, submission wrestling or equivalent and one of the Filipino martial arts....you've got the best in striking, grappling and weapons in those three.....imo of course

Freeform

24-Oct-2002, 01:04 PM

I was thinking purely unarmed combat. Maybe I'd replace aikido with a weapons system (ooh, sounds v. Star Trek :) ).

Col

MATT_LIQUID

24-Oct-2002, 02:20 PM

Ok then what 3 would be the best if you were to be entering in ufc.

TkdWarrior

24-Oct-2002, 02:48 PM

MATT that's cheating... :p
well i'll prefer Gracie JuJutsu then... Tkd with my current teacher..
no third art needed...
-TkdWarrior-

Sweeet

24-Oct-2002, 03:14 PM

Could I be so naive as to say something like... Hapkido, Ninjitsu, and BJJ? Weird to say the least, I know. Or you could take out the Ninjitsu in place of JKD - still results in a veerrrry well rounded fighter that is completely proficient at all ranges in all situations, assuming that the instructions given in all styles is excellent.

And no, I'm not forgetting the weapons system - at higher levels Hapkido covers a ton of weapons fighting, and Ninjitsu as well earlier on.

Sweeet.

stump

24-Oct-2002, 03:35 PM

IN the case of preparing for an NHB match I'd say, Muay thai, Shoot/submission wrestling and BJJ.

wayofthedragon

24-Oct-2002, 09:10 PM

The Best....hmmm, I count none as better than the other, but a good mix would be....I think... wing chun Kung-fu, Kickboxing, and brazilian jujitsu. This is because you'd be an excellent close range fighter even if you're in a small area, not only that but you'll be able to fight from a longer range as well, so u'll be ready at any range, and if things get down and dirty, then you know how to haddle the situation on the ground as well. So, that would be a good three I'd say. But there are several others. Yet this remains my choice:D

stump

25-Oct-2002, 09:21 AM

OK this may not go down well with some people......

I think it's fair to say that only a few martial arts have had any success at NHB level....which is why I would not recommend arts such as Wing Chun (kung fu at all actually), aikido, karate or taekwondo etc, etc, etc

I think 39 UFCs have shown that the most suited striking art to no holds barred fighting is muay thai. Ditto grappling and BJJ, shoot or submission wrestling.

THe origonally mentioned arts are excellent but in my views rely on one of two assumptions -

1, you're fighting someone of the same style

2, you're fighting someone with little or no experience of martial arts and they are not aware you have

you put them up against another trained fighter in a limited rules situation and you're going to see their limitations pretty quickly.

Anyway just my opinions

pgm316

25-Oct-2002, 10:20 AM

I agree with you partly stump, many traditional martial artists would fail in a NHB fight because there very nieve about there abilities. It doesn't matter what style you train, if you want to fight NHB, you have to train especially for that. In some ways a NHB fight is as different from a street fight as a touchy feely competition fight.

Muay thai is a powerful striking style but consistantly fails against anybody with reasonable grappling skills. And its debatable how effective it is tagging some grappling onto an art like muay thai as opposed to an art which compines grappling and striking techniques.

I train in Wing Chun, but its closer to JKD than traditional WC. Its true what you say, when we practise the traditional way you can see the weaknesses and how it would be useless against a good NHB fighter. I've trained a while in kickboxing and judo and I thought that was pretty valuable experience to practice things I already knew and learn a few bits and pieces.

stump

25-Oct-2002, 11:58 AM

my experience of Jujitsuka who don't specifically train striking is that their strikes are below par. I know, I know sweeping generalisation but my experience nontheless. I'll bet in the better grappling clubs this has been addressed by now.

Proper cross training doesn't involving tagging anything on to anything, though I know a lot of people do that. It involves planned structured training in both martial arts plus separate time to put them together.

The other advantage of Muay thai, aside from it's striking is that practicioners are much better conditioned and fitter as a rule than other martial artists so they'll absorb damage better.

pgm316

25-Oct-2002, 01:13 PM

But thats what often happens when people cross train and they might think they know grapping and striking, but they've never been taught how to put the two together. So how effective is it?

I agree with you about Jujitsuka, I've trained at two clubs and neither seemed to be good enough at striking. I was disapointed with grappling there as well. It seemed to concentrate more on strength than technique. Maybe I just chose wrong clubs to go to.

Acekicken

27-Oct-2002, 05:23 PM

Submisson Wrestling , Mauy Thai & Arnis

MATT_LIQUID

27-Oct-2002, 07:51 PM

Frank and Ken Shamrock use submission wrestling dont they? and their both legends in their own rite.

Acekicken

27-Oct-2002, 08:50 PM

I'm a big fan of Both Ken & Frank.

There are alot of good
Submisson Wrestlers out there
Sakuraba is another verry talented one.

pgm316

27-Oct-2002, 08:57 PM

A quote from Franks Website

The first question answered was, "Do martial arts work?" The answer was a resounding YES. Martial arts training was touted as being able to give a person the ability to overcome a larger, stronger opponent. Many doubted that this was true. Yet when the world watched 155-pound Royce Gracie continually humiliate and defeat opponents outweighing him by as much as 50 pounds, the public had no choice but to become believers.

The second question answered was, "What is the BEST martial art?" The answer was again indisputable: NONE. Martial artists from a myriad of different backgrounds and styles fought in these events, and it was clearly demonstrated that there is no superior martial art; there are only superior practitioners.

The next question was, "Did Bruce Lee know what he was talking about?" The answer was: You betcha! More then 30 years ago, Lee incurred the wrath of the martial arts community by insisting that it was a mistake to rigidly adhere to the teachings of a single style or system. Lee insisted throughout his adult life that martial artists should take advantage of opportunities to train in many different styles and ultimately develop a personal style as a form of self-expression.

This was quickly proven by the experiences of the early fighters in mixed events. Suddenly, it was not uncommon to see a tae kwon do stylist grappling, or a grappler delivering a Thai hook kick. Martial artists who were highly trained in one style were quick to learn the weaknesses inherent in their system, and fill in the gaps by training in other martial arts. Practitioners who were highly skilled in their respective arts realized they needed to familiarize themselves with other systems so they could defend against them and develop effective counters. Fighters also immediately understood the need for cross training, such as weight training for strength, stretching for flexibility, and drills for speed and precision.

In short, the martial arts community got a much needed reality check. And the ultimate result was the birth of a new martial art. In fact, this martial art is so new that it has yet to be given a name. The public refers to this art variously as "no-holds barred fights," "ultimate fighting," and "mixed martial arts." And in no single individual is this new martial art more embodied than in Frank Shamrock.

Birth of a Legend
Born Frank Elisio Juarez, Shamrock owes his good looks to his Mexican/ Native American heritage. He grew up in Northern California and ultimately took the name of his adopted father, Bob Shamrock. Fascinated by martial arts his entire life, he began training in a variety of styles at a very early age.

"Let's face it," says Frank. "We live in a world where there are unprecedented opportunities to train. A fisherman in Okinawa had to train with whatever karate master lived near him. He couldn't go to a karate lesson one day, a jiu-jitsu lesson the next, and a boxing gym the day after. We can. And we have fighters who are constantly testing and refining their skills. We have an unlimited pool of knowledge.
Frank quickly swept the world of mixed martial arts. With five UFC victories and a score of dazzling no-holds barred championships to back him up, he quickly became "The Man." Wherever there were butts to be kicked, Frank Shamrock came riding into town and kicked them all. And according to Frank, he has one, and only one secret. Training smarter

http://www.martialarts.com/martial-arts-articles/shamrock_training.htm

Acekicken

27-Oct-2002, 09:08 PM

Frank Shamrock & Bruce Lee
are both Awsome Martial Artist

Royce Gracie is a realy good Martial Artist
But he weighed in at 170 not 155

He did beat all that stood before him
in the 1st 2 UFC.
Kimo gave him a great fight in UFC 3
Dan Severn hung in for 15 min
And Ken Rocked his hole world in 5

Royce changed the way People
Looked At Martial Arts
He was a Pioner
That will never Beforgotton

He has had some dows as of late
But he is still
name & Face in M.A.

MATT_LIQUID

28-Oct-2002, 12:55 AM

who would win in ufc in a tournement between mike tyson, bruce lee, frank shamrock and tito

MATT_LIQUID

28-Oct-2002, 12:56 AM

in their prime (iforgot to mention) and 2 more ummm ken sham and roice grac

STASH

28-Oct-2002, 02:29 AM

Thats pretty tough to decide. Definetly not Tyson though, he's a boxer and although a good one, I dont think he would manage in UFC.

Acekicken

28-Oct-2002, 05:55 AM

Bruce is gone god bless his soul
Mike would get taped quick
And I would Hate to
See Shamrock Vs Shamrock.

If i had to pick I say Ken

Sweeet

28-Oct-2002, 07:31 AM

Having seen a fight in which Frank starts maniacally smiling whilist his face is being pounded, I would definitely go with him despite that fact that he is shorter and lighter than his brother. In my opinion, he's got that much needed little bit of craziness and brilliance that would make him win. Out of the 4 - I would still go with Frank, although I'd kill to see the fight between him and Bruce - really, who knows? Would be interesting. Just speculation, of course.

Sweeet.

pgm316

28-Oct-2002, 08:42 AM

I'd put my money on Frank, although it would be pretty even between the UFC fighters. I couldn't see Bruce winning, he's arguably the best martial artist and visionary, but he has no UFC style training and his size disadvantage.

Just imagine how different things could have been if Tyson had trained UFC instead of boxing...........

MATT_LIQUID

28-Oct-2002, 01:49 PM

remember what i said 'in their prime. Tyson has no real sealth discipline but maybe thats how he WAS the best. I would say Frank as well but I wouldnt underestimate tito. If it was gracie vs bruce who would win?

pgm316

28-Oct-2002, 02:55 PM

I still think Tyson would be good! He had a incredible mixture of technique, brutality, speed and power. Imagine if he'd been born into the gracie family. The UFC would really have been blood sport then ;)

Gracie vs Bruce - I'd have to say Gracie, groundfighting has evolved from Bruce's days. Without a lot of training I couldn't see Bruce having an answer for the Gracie mount position etc. Its still sort of an unfair fight for Bruce, it wasn't the direction he went in. He was more street than UFC. Maybe if he'd been born later and gone UFC instead of films we'd have been talking about Bruce instead of the Royce. But Bruce wouldn't have made an impact in the MA's world anywhere near what he did!

ps Matt, How would you rank the Shamrocks, Gracies, Bruce Lee and Tyson?

MATT_LIQUID

28-Oct-2002, 03:30 PM

1st Frank
2nd ken
3rd Tito
4th Roice
5th Bruce
6th Tyson

Thats what I think but no one will ever know. Perhaps Bruce would have suprised us all and been too quick for them all, or Tyson jus walk in there with a 1 punck KO.....

Only if.......

pgm316

28-Oct-2002, 03:46 PM

I think I'd have to agree with your ranking system. Without the UFC training you had to put them 5 & 6. I just wonder we're they'd have been with it.........

Bon

12-Dec-2002, 02:20 PM

My combination is :

Krav maga - simple, effective, nothing flashy. I'm not sure what the weapons work covers, or how extensive it is though.
BJJ - ground fighting.
Boxing - good hands are really important.

IF, the weapons work in krava maga is limited, my combination would then be :

Krav maga
BJJ
Escrima

Bon

12-Dec-2002, 02:33 PM

Hmmm, Tyson is an animal. I'm wondering if breaking his arm would only make him more angry ?

Btw, don't you think Lee would plant a side kick into you before you even went in for your shoot ?

STASH

18-Dec-2002, 03:42 PM

Hey everyone, its been a while, i've been incredibly busy lately but i decided to take some time off training and work, see how everyone is doing on MAP.

Anyways, I feel like reviving this thread...

Originally posted by Bon
Hmmm, Tyson is an animal. I'm wondering if breaking his arm would only make him more angry ?

Yea, it probably would piss him off but hows he gonna punch you with a broken arm?

Originally posted by Bon
Btw, don't you think Lee would plant a side kick into you before you even went in for your shoot ?

I seriously wouldnt know. I've never seen Bruce Lee in a real fight and I'm assuming most of the people here havent either. Bruce Lee in a NHB competition is an interesting idea though. In some forums people say he wouldnt last, in other they say he would dominate. I guess we'll never know.

iolair

09-Jan-2003, 03:43 PM

I would go
1) Boxing (or a Kickboxing style that covers boxing punches and footwork REALLY well)
2) Judo
3) Any strong kicking art

Joe karate

09-Jan-2003, 06:45 PM

Shaolin Kempo
Submission wrestling
jujutsu

Acekicken

10-Jan-2003, 02:22 AM

1st i think the Man was awsome!

But He spared many times with Bot Wally Jay & Gene Lebell
Whom Both speak verry Hily of him.

But Both were abel to put him on the mat.
Bruce Used Techniques he learned from Both
Jay & Lebell in his Movies.

mild7

20-Jan-2003, 01:58 PM

Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiujitsu... if a guy trains in both these arts and becomes very good at both of them, he would be a very scary man indeed.

I would hate to fight with any member of Brazilian Top Team, and this is the simple formula they use.

stump

20-Jan-2003, 03:26 PM

<<<I've never seen Bruce Lee in a real fight and I'm assuming most of the people here havent either. Bruce Lee in a NHB competition is an interesting idea though. In some forums people say he wouldnt last, in other they say he would dominate. I guess we'll never know.>>>>

One thing i will say is that I highly doubt Bruce Lee would have got into an anything goes type match without addresing his lack of ground fighting skills. He seems to have been very good at analysing weaknesses in other peoples games....I'm sure he would have done the same to himself if put in that situation.

Bombotta

12-Feb-2003, 06:22 AM

Free style wrestling, Jujitsu, Muy Thia kickboxing would be the three martial arts that most free style fighters I know train in.

You need to be able to take an apponent to the ground and submit him and when necessary strike with him using hands and feet.

HKD

07-Mar-2003, 03:05 PM

aren't judo and jujitsu almost the same?
i would say hapkido, hapkido and hapkido it has always covered all 3 ranges. even B 4 JKD came out
HKD

RAGE

11-Jun-2003, 05:55 PM

ken shamrock my as!!, he got is ass kick big time at ufc 1 by royce grace, he is the one, BJJ kick ass!! Tito ortiz is just starting up, he also sucks, my rank would be 1. Royce Gracie, Frank, ken, tyson and at the end, bruce, who're we kidding??, bruce wouldn't beat no one bigger than him, if we let our self belive that he was a really gret fighter just based on the movies he made, come on, the why don't we put Van dame on the " elected" list or even better steven segal??

Adam

11-Jun-2003, 06:22 PM

Sumo wrestling, testa and capoeira. :D

Maybe not very effective, but it sure as hell would be entertaining.

Cain

11-Jun-2003, 06:29 PM

Hmm...would luv to see a sumo wrestler do capoeria :D

|Cain|

Sonshu

12-Jun-2003, 02:34 PM

Boxing, Sombo, Thaiboxing

or

Boxing, BJJ, Thaiboxing

or

Boxing, Freestyle Wrestling & Thaiboxing

That would be mine.

Each of the above would be depending on the persons frame and ability.

For me the top one would suit best!

Also - I think Bruce would get torn apart in somthing like PRIDE - sorry all you guys!

SONSHU

AsSaSiN

12-Jun-2003, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by cain_charlie
Hmm...would luv to see a sumo wrestler do capoeria :D

|Cain|

LOL You would be unstoppable, imagine the possibilitys! You could rule the world! Anyway, i think in the end, it comes down to your attitude. You DO need that crazy spark in the hard, which clicks when you are pushed too far, and then you can go clear house :D

MATT_LIQUID

20-Jun-2003, 12:58 AM

Cool this threads still going. I started this last year!

MATT_LIQUID

20-Jun-2003, 01:16 AM

Guys I wonder what would happen if the best kung fu monk who lives in a monk temple. It would have to be the best monk who has practised kung fu in his temple.

1 fact I know about bruce lee is that in his movies they had to slow the picture down to see his kicks (he was that fast). Most ma film stars have their moves speed up.

Sonshu

26-Jun-2003, 03:55 PM

As I was watching some of his movies the other weekend and I found myself less spellbound than when I was 10.

Just looked less impressive to me - still great but the magic has gone for me.

SONSHU

MATT_LIQUID

26-Jun-2003, 05:10 PM

Probably because you can do most of the kicks he can now. When you were younger u probably thought "omg thats impossible".

Adam

26-Jun-2003, 05:21 PM

If the best shaolin monk did what? Enter the UFC?

MATT_LIQUID

26-Jun-2003, 05:27 PM

no I meant it would be good to see a monk who has devoted all his life to the temple (the best 1 they have) then see how he performs in UFC. It would be worth watching.

Sonshu

30-Jun-2003, 01:06 PM

Little or no ground fighting for a start!

SONSHU

Adam

30-Jun-2003, 01:30 PM

If you browse around Bullshido.com for a bit, there are a few posts made by a guy, WuDe, who knows some Shaolin monks and translates what they say. According to his posts, they condition their bodies insanely and are extremely powerful fighters, fit enough to enter the UFC. He also says that the monks DO train in grappling and groundfighting, although it is not Shaolin. Go look Wude up. I believe him.

thiaboxr2

03-Jul-2003, 12:46 PM

Personal opinion, of course. I would have to go with Muey Thia for the standup action, BJJ for the groundwork and a Filipino knife and stick fighting style for the weapons training.All martial arts are effective for self defense, but only as effective as the individual using them.

stump

03-Jul-2003, 03:16 PM

It would be much more interesting to see if the best shaolin monk applied to enter the Lions Den. If he got in and trained with them for a few months then it would be interesting to see how he got on in the UFC....entering prior to this would just be a slaughterfest

Sonshu

03-Jul-2003, 04:03 PM

Hi bud

I can't see a monk even with a few month experience getting by at a high level - yes they should have the fitness but I doubt there are many monks with 280lbs guys laying on them ground fighting.

The are very talented and I would not want to take anything away from them but I there is a lot to be said about getting chined a few times.

All of a sudden instinct is all you have left. Its easy to also say they would avoid the punches - I guess most MMA fighters have this idea but the reality is a different thing.

SONSHU

Adam

03-Jul-2003, 04:15 PM

Go to Bullshido and look up the "ask a monk" column. They're supposed to have extreme body condtioning.

stump

03-Jul-2003, 07:02 PM

I agree mate but at least it would giv them a fighting chance!!!!

mani

06-Jul-2003, 07:46 PM

i would choose:

karate, tai chi and judo

Jags

06-Jul-2003, 08:01 PM

same here amni
p.s mani meet me in da chat room NOW

MATT_LIQUID

06-Jul-2003, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by mani
i would choose:

karate, tai chi and judo

bad choice!

What could you do if you got taken down to the ground?

pray?

Knight_Errant

07-Jul-2003, 10:46 AM

If I had my time again...
kickboxing
wrestling
fencing

Jonny Chee

07-Jul-2003, 11:17 AM

I would choose:

Wing Chun (no bias whatsoever, ahem!)
Aiki-Jitsu
Tae-kwon-do

Yeah, that'd be good for me!

:D

movado

09-Jul-2003, 10:21 PM

jeet kune do,kickboxing and gracie ju-jitsu
or
wing chun,muay tai,sambo
or
boxing,savate,greco roman wrestling
or
olympic style wrestling,aikido,and ninjitsu
-----------------------------------------------------------
anyway you slice it you need to train in punching,kicking and grappling,period.whatever you name what your doing is rather irrelevant as opposed to the fundemental and essential basics of covering the necessary fighting warrior techniques,and that's the bottom line.
dig it?

p.s
had to add that last part to break the tension.

MATT_LIQUID

09-Jul-2003, 10:52 PM

^^^sounds good^^^

Noryoku-Kage

17-Jul-2003, 01:26 AM

me i chose just one the best shinobi style it combine all you must learn

Saz

18-Jul-2003, 03:09 PM

This is about the 3rd or 4th time you've posted the same thing...

Android X

03-Aug-2003, 05:27 AM

Brazilian Jujitsu and Muay Tai, possibly boxing as the third, but definately the first two.

Sonshu

04-Aug-2003, 08:04 AM

Ninjitsu
Wrestling/Jujitsu/MMA/Sombo
Muai Thai

This sort of thing

I am happy with the results I have gained during my training.

kansetsuhazushi

25-Aug-2003, 12:24 PM

tae kwon doe
ju jutsu
aikido

also, although it doesn't count as a martial art, dislocating joints(like the shoulder, hips, wrist, knee... that sort of thing)

Kinjiro Tsukasa

25-Aug-2003, 03:27 PM

Ninjutsu
Wrestling
Tai Chi Chuan

tang_sou_dao

25-Aug-2003, 08:15 PM

wing chun, muay thai and BJJ

stoppy

26-Aug-2003, 03:21 PM

barreta ... 9mm shell ,, itchy trigger finger :) LOL

no seriously TKD for high kicks .. Muay thai for stamina fighting hapkido for throws and grapples. ?

I dont know whatever you chose there is always someone bigger or harder or younger.

You cant fight time. Just spar with it. :O

turbo7

07-Sep-2003, 05:46 AM

Originally posted by stoppy
barreta ... 9mm shell ,, itchy trigger finger :) LOL

I agree...
M249 SAW, M4 w/ M203 nader, Glock 9

J/K....I would have to say....

BJJ for that ground fighting
Jujitsu (traditional)/Aikido/Aikijutsu for breaking some joints/bones/ pressure points...
TKD (real traditional TKD)/KungFu/Wingchun for fast striking arts

Sadly, I don't think a Monk will ever compete in a UFC, or any other competition as that is not why they train. Gracie may be good, but there are a lot more better MA's out there that just don't compete nor care about winning tournaments.

xplasma

12-Oct-2003, 10:21 PM

Ninpo
BJJ
Kali
Krav Maga

it that order

Scott194

15-Oct-2003, 06:44 AM

I think ninpo and krav maga as well.

But doesn't Ninpo covers pretty much all those arts?

BJJ is really Japanese Jui Jutsu, which is apart of Ninpo, and the Brazillians took it and altered it a bit. From what I've read, Ninpo is pretty extensive and doesn't it cover stickfighting? I'm still new to the art but one of the other students told me how Krav Maga has jui jutsu, chin na, jeet kune do, some tai chi, mauy tai and basic boxing.

xplasma

15-Oct-2003, 10:35 PM

Check out
http://128.226.221.34/nin-ja.html

For your answers

( Yes, I been asked this question soooo often I created a webpage to answer it)

Scott194

16-Oct-2003, 03:03 AM

that's where I got the info about ninpo

saikyou

16-Oct-2003, 03:32 AM

judo, shoot wrestling, and kickboxing.

xplasma

16-Oct-2003, 03:35 AM

HAHAHA!
Thats funny, ok let me explain. The stuff in green is other arts that I feel add to ninjutsu. For example BJJ for ground (BJJ actaully comes more from Judo, think of the judo ground fighting amplified time 1 million), Kali for small blades and sticks (Ninpo has Hanbo which is bigger then a stick, and the smallest blade is a tonto which still big) and Krav Maga for Gun defenses.

Scott194

16-Oct-2003, 05:48 AM

damn, well I feel stupid. I'm jus gonna stick to the art instead of talking about it.

Yama Tombo

31-Oct-2003, 02:53 AM

I don't think there is any best combination of martial arts, meaning just three. I think anyone serious about fighting should study alot, and study everything they can get their hands on.

Floorismyfriend

01-Nov-2003, 07:12 AM

I think the 3 best fighting styles are ju jitsu, knife fighting, and assault rifle, hand gun training.

Floorismyfriend

01-Nov-2003, 07:15 AM

Originally posted by xplasma
HAHAHA!
Thats funny, ok let me explain. The stuff in green is other arts that I feel add to ninjutsu. For example BJJ for ground (BJJ actaully comes more from Judo, think of the judo ground fighting amplified time 1 million), Kali for small blades and sticks (Ninpo has Hanbo which is bigger then a stick, and the smallest blade is a tonto which still big) and Krav Maga for Gun defenses.
Um bjj comes from jjj not judo
Judo its self came from jjj
jjj=japanese ju jitsu

Greg-VT

01-Nov-2003, 07:20 AM

hmm I would like to do TKD, WC, and BJJ.

Floorismyfriend

01-Nov-2003, 07:21 AM

whats wc?

Greg-VT

01-Nov-2003, 07:36 AM

WC is Wing Chun, or Ving Tsun.

It's, more or less, a close range Chinese Martial Art.

You can find more info about in this thread:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6096

Or more info in the WC threads in the 'Kung Fu' forum.

Floorismyfriend

01-Nov-2003, 08:06 AM

you know anything about Chin-Na?

Hakko-Ryu

01-Nov-2003, 08:51 PM

hmmm my choice for NHB...Baji Quan (MANY MANY YEARS of it), BJJ and a little Muay Thai.
for the streets? hmm i'd say Baji still, traditional JJJ instead of BJJ, and San Shou or Judo.

Shaolin Dragon

30-Nov-2003, 03:54 AM

If you are mixing three martial arts, then it makes sense to do a striking MA, a grappling MA and an internal MA; that way you cover the widest range of abilities

Soete-tsuki

02-Dec-2003, 02:15 AM

Hmmm, this being my personal choice, I'd say Goju Ryu Karate, Aikido, and Jujutsu.

Or perhaps Shoalin Kung Fu, no need to add another MA =)

Darkflames21

02-Dec-2003, 03:31 AM

My top three, out of many choices, are Tae Kwon Do, Judo, and Tai Chi. A close second is Ninjutsu, Aikido, and KickBoxing.

versatilefightR

04-Dec-2003, 02:26 PM

Muay Thai, BJJ, and weapons

SoHei

09-Dec-2003, 07:45 PM

I would have to say, eagle claw kung fu, chi gung and jiu jitsu

Oh and on the subject of the UFC no holds barred matches, its a shame that you don't get to see practitioners of traditional martial arts, and more freestyle or just highly modified arts.

I would really love to see more tradition kung fu involved like someone from lily lau's school (e.g. my sifu ) enter a NHB match instead of all these deluded wushu guys.

and before we get allll worked up about wushu when i say wushu i mean the flower fists and embroidary kicks type, possibly not your school's k?

Who am I?

04-Jan-2004, 02:38 AM

Jun Fan Gung Fu, Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jun Fan Gung Fu

redbull

13-Jan-2004, 05:39 AM

judo for trows and groundwork, shootfighting for submissions, and muay thai for kicking and punchin. Oh yeah track and field for if anyone pulls out a knife or a gun.

nicolo

13-Jan-2004, 08:56 PM

muay Thai, Brazilian Jujitsu and Filipino Kali/Escrima/Arnis

then for second choice...

Hapkido, Kyokushinkai Karate and wing chun

or just Jeet Kune Do (although it's not really an art or style)

Radok

12-Feb-2004, 03:21 PM

For an NHB fight, I would say BJJ, Okinawan Karate (full contact), but for a lifetime of training, I would go with Traditional JJ, Okinawan Karate, and chi kung. Internal training, weopons training, strikes, and grappling is all included there.

Guy Mendiola

13-Feb-2004, 06:19 AM

It would have to be Tae Kwon Do,Muay Thai, and BJJ.

lamegrappler

13-Feb-2004, 07:22 AM

vale tudo,shuai jaoi,and muay thai.vale tudo is good for stand-to-ground transitions,shuai jaoi has painful and dangerous throws,and muay thai is good for if you can't get them to the ground,vale tudo does stand-up work,but,is more of a ground-and-pound style,but it does teach a lot of submishins,but teaches you to get in a safe position a strike away and if the chance for a sub is there,take it,but it's manly strikes before trying a sub.as for weapons,take out muay thai and put in northern shaolin weapons,that way you get a wide range of weapons training,not just one style of weapons.

p.s.Bruce Lee wasn't the BEST of his day for no reseon,people act like he would suck in ufc, but it's not like Bruce Lee never threw someone and his strikes were very very good and speed was probly un-matched,so stop goin so hard on Bruce Lee :cry: ,it's not like he couldn't WIN a fight or two,if not the belt in ufc. :D

dustIn credible

23-May-2004, 02:06 PM

JKD, Eagle Claw (108 Chin-na), Shuai Jaoi (if i could find it to take).

or

Weng Shun Kuen, Choy Li Fut, Val Tudo or BJJ

chungmoomonkey

24-May-2004, 12:55 PM

i do Bjj fr grappeling i have been doing TSD since i was a kid and that has really brought my kicks along and i wanna start Kung fu fr the hand tecs.

hotrod1

09-Jul-2004, 09:12 AM

i guess i would have to go with the following

jkd concepts & (jun fan)
bjj
kali

overall i think these would be a good mix not just for ufc but also for the street

dustIn credible

09-Jul-2004, 10:26 AM

i wanna change my answer lol

Wing Chun, Bak Mei, Jujutsu (anykind really)

Crow

20-Jul-2004, 02:22 AM

DC_Benny

20-Jul-2004, 04:48 AM

Hapkido+Jiu Jitsu + Muay Thai = Hapjitsu Thai

Stuart H

23-Jul-2004, 04:24 PM

For me it's Wing Chun and CQC for striking, and Systema for grappling and weapons (though it's great overall).

SenseLess

24-Jul-2004, 08:26 AM

for me
1>Muay Thai
2>BJJ
3>systema

welsh warrior.....u know much bout systema?i onli just heard and read bout it last week....got anygood video clips?

kevamania

28-Jul-2004, 02:40 AM

Hybrid_Killer

06-Aug-2004, 12:24 PM

thai boxing
freestyle wrestling
brazilian jiujitsu

oni_sensei

06-Aug-2004, 02:18 PM

TKD/Hapkido/Ninjutsu. I'm not a fan of MMA competitions, hulking mean wearing nothing but lycra bike shorts doesn't attract my attention. The street is more where I'm concerned.

Taliar

06-Aug-2004, 04:45 PM

TKD for Striking,
Tensuiruko Jujitsu - (spelt wrong) - Grappling, throws, self defense locks etc.
Haidong Gumdo - Korean Sword Art.

This is not for UFC fighting but what i would personally like to train in, Kali or Escrima is probably a more practical weapons style to use as it covers more easily avaliable weapons but hey I just like swords.

notquitedead

06-Aug-2004, 10:30 PM

TKD/Hapkido/Ninjutsu. I'm not a fan of MMA competitions, hulking mean wearing nothing but lycra bike shorts doesn't attract my attention. The street is more where I'm concerned.
So you're saying TKD/Hapkido/Ninjutsu is more effective for the street? :rolleyes: Yeah when I'm mugged I'll rely on my jumping, spinning, backwards hook kick, too.

My three would be for the STREET would be:
Boxing
Muay Thai (for knees and elbows from the clinch)
Greco-Roman wrestling (for throws from the clinch and groundfighting)

oni_sensei

07-Aug-2004, 04:19 AM

So you're saying TKD/Hapkido/Ninjutsu is more effective for the street? :rolleyes: Yeah when I'm mugged I'll rely on my jumping, spinning, backwards hook kick, too.

Well then you're a goddamn fool. Not everybody sees the need to train in something that is assumed to be more effective than something else. I chose TKD for long range, not high kicks, and Hapkido and Ninjutsu for a good grounding in everything else; weapons, restraints, basic ground skills, throws and striking.

Just because I prefer more traditional arts doesn't make my combination less effective than anything else. You just need to train right.

notquitedead

07-Aug-2004, 04:32 AM

Chill man, I was referring to the fact that you diss MMA as being a sport, and then say you train for the street by doing an olympic sport that involves a lot of high/spinning/jumping kicks.

oni_sensei

07-Aug-2004, 08:54 AM

I wasn't dissing MMA at all. I said that I didn't like watching or training in MMA, I didn't say that it's not effective. I don't train in WTF TKD either, I'm ITF, designed for the military. That said, there's no reason why certain WTF strategies and techniques can't be adapted for the street either.

I don't train for t3h stR33T, but I do incorporate realistic situations such as being taken with a double shoot/tackle, and common "street" scenarios into my training, with full resistance of course.

notquitedead

07-Aug-2004, 05:47 PM

Well when you say "The street is more where I'm concerned." it makes you sound like you train for the street. :D

OBCT

09-Aug-2004, 10:49 AM

Karate: Striking
Jujutsu: Grappling/groundwork
Aikido: Joint locks,principles,self learning.

Its not a bad mix(I dont think there is a bad mix,you could be doing a lot worse with your time)

Aikido you cover a little weapons without spending too much time on em.
Plus you can compete in a variety of events if you like and attend loadsa seminars

Same: Wado ryu karate, to have more a deflect redirect approach, which compliments the aikido. A JJ style heavily Judo based, possibly BJJ, and Aikido for understanding movement and energy

Kenpo Kicker

10-Aug-2004, 12:52 AM

Gee... Even tough I dont understand the need for this thread (except that it's just funny mind game) I would say...
1) Jujitsu (notice I didn't select a specific style, couldn't possibly make up my mind on that)
2) Muay Thai/Kickboxing
3) Kali/Escrima/Arnis

Altough it has been my dream to practise all of these styles I still would like to venture in other styles and dabble. Check out what the hell Tai Chi is all about, go train with some Wing Chun stylist's and getting my arse hand over to me by some MMA practisioner and ofcourse, go see some Krav Maga, Bagua, Xing-YI.... Aargh, you are srewing with my head. Cant make up my mind...

I agree with these arts being mixed.

this is a good mix too

So you're saying TKD/Hapkido/Ninjutsu is more effective for the street? :rolleyes: Yeah when I'm mugged I'll rely on my jumping, spinning, backwards hook kick, too.

My three would be for the STREET would be:
Boxing
Muay Thai (for knees and elbows from the clinch)
Greco-Roman wrestling (for throws from the clinch and groundfighting)

It would have to be Tae Kwon Do,Muay Thai, and BJJ.

I don't think tkd and muay thai mix too well. When I was doing mt combos I kept having some tkd insticts kicking in messing them up.

notquitedead

10-Aug-2004, 01:23 AM

TKD and muay thai kicks are completely different mechanics. Taekwondo chambers a lot more, muay thai uses the leg more like a club. :p

Also, TKD uses the instep/ball of foot and muay thai uses mostly the shin. It would be kind of hard to decide which roundhouse you wanted to use lol.

If you are choosing bewteen TKD and muay thai, I would pick muay thai because it uses clinching, elbows, knees, and punching to the head isn't an illegal target in sparring. :rolleyes:

TheMachine

10-Aug-2004, 06:29 AM

BJJ for submissions, judo/wrestling for takedowns boxing/muay thai for striking

RobP

10-Aug-2004, 08:22 AM

"welsh warrior.....u know much bout systema?i onli just heard and read bout it last week....got anygood video clips?"

http://www.systemauk.com/video2.htm
http://www.systemauk.com/video.htm

Covers it all for me. The only art I've seen that convincingly covers fighting in a crowd too

Lafhastum

20-Sep-2004, 03:39 AM

I train in Wushu (Which si really not all style like some people would think) and Capoeria (Another martial art known to be all style). I like Capoeira for how it attacks to the openings in different attacks and how every attack can be used as a defence. then with Wushu has a lot of good grappling moves along with some nice maneuvers with attacks. i think if I were to pick up Muay Thai that would be a pretty good combination.

slideyfoot

24-Sep-2004, 10:42 AM

BJJ for submissions, judo/wrestling for takedowns boxing/muay thai for striking

I pretty much agree with that, although you could also train sambo/sombo or sub-wrestling for takedowns and subs, and kyokushin and seidokokan aren't bad for striking - muay thai is certainly the best stand-up, however.

Alternately, cross-train MMA with two other styles. :p

d33pthought

26-Sep-2004, 02:54 PM

Allowing for unlimited time to master each, I'd say Taekwondo, Judo and some form of primarily weapon-oriented kung fu.

kevamania

31-Oct-2004, 11:33 PM

Same: Wado ryu karate, to have more a deflect redirect approach, which compliments the aikido. A JJ style heavily Judo based, possibly BJJ, and Aikido for understanding movement and energy

Yeah Im doing wado karate,aikikai aikido at the mo.Come to think of it I could go to jj once a week,there is an excellent club beside me,do a lot of ground work too.Dont think it would be a good idea to introduce another art just yet though.

munkiejunkie

01-Nov-2004, 07:12 AM

I would probably say Japanese jujitsu, muay thai and probably kenjutsu. P.S. OBCT, judo is based on jujitsu, not the other way around

Hybrid_Killer

10-Nov-2004, 11:51 PM

Ahem I have a new mix.

Judo/freestyle wrestling/submission wrestling and muay thai.

Tribalweapon

11-Nov-2004, 04:47 AM

I might have posted on this thread before but oh well. Personally I use

TKD
Wrestling(with a little BJJ experience)
Arnis

Seems pretty well rounded to me but then again that is my own opinion.

Yukimushu

12-Nov-2004, 10:32 AM

Too be honest, All you need is Thai boxing & Jujitsu.

Hybrid_Killer

12-Nov-2004, 10:52 AM

Soeak for yourself yuki:p

NIXOLA

12-Nov-2004, 11:02 AM

All you need is SVEBOR
svebor is compilation of boxing, savate boxing, thai boxing, bjj, wrestling and judo
this is the ultimate skill for UFC

Slindsay

12-Nov-2004, 11:34 AM

Hmm, if I was trainning for a UFC event I would say:

BJJ
Taekwondo or Muay Thai
WC or going to the gym, I would have to see how effective I thought WC was

Also I wouldnt consider doing these if they didnt all allow me to practice full contact under ufc rules so in reality I would be a lot more likely to take Muay Thai, BJJ and going to the gym.

On the other hand if I just wanted self defence, didnt want to get pummelled a load in my trainning and was after martial arts for enjoyment more than anythinfg else:

WTF style TKD for the competitions
Judo or BJJ cos it looks like fun and you dont seem as likely to dvelop major brain damnage from repeated blows to the head
Krav Magra or WC again depending cos I have never tried either of them and would see which one I thought was more fun so it would depend on local schools.

Yukimushu

12-Nov-2004, 01:47 PM

Judo or BJJ cos it looks like fun and you dont seem as likely to dvelop major brain damnage from repeated blows to the head

lol yes, BJJ is great fun :) It's really strange how it all changes when it goes to the ground :) And like you say, your not as likel to suffer brain damage from it :)

Corny

24-Dec-2004, 03:23 PM

My list:

Capoeira Regional :cool:
Capoeira Angola :cool:
Capoeira Contempoêrana :cool:

woot! representing like hell!! :D

Fish Of Doom

24-Dec-2004, 04:13 PM

1-ninjutsu or muay thai or karate
2-tai chi or krav maga
3-aikido or vale tudo or jujutsu(any style)

failing that i'd go with Fallout Tactics:brotherhood of steel's power armors :Angel: (seriously though they rocked)

Fish Of Doom

notquitedead

24-Dec-2004, 08:44 PM

1-ninjutsu or muay thai or karate
2-tai chi or krav maga
3-aikido or vale tudo or jujutsu(any style)
Any particular reason for those? That list seems kind of random (what do tai chi and krav have in common?).

Fish Of Doom

24-Dec-2004, 08:58 PM

1-a striking art
2-an "other" art, tai chi is internal and krav maga is more "no-nonsense"
3-a grappling/groundfighting art

samharber

25-Dec-2004, 01:18 AM

1) Vale Tudo. yes I know that technically its not a style, but taught as a way of fighting within a given rules set. As such, it allows you to use whatever skills you do have in whatever MA to maximum effectiveness. For anyone who says it wouldn't work on the street and that your style allows for t3h d3adly 3y3 gouge, don't make me unleash the Matt thornton quotes.

2) Escrima. You want to fight with a weapon? Its the weapons equivalent of Vale Tudo. Don't believe its effective? Google the Dog Brothers. they're overly macho and have a masochistic streak a mile wide, but it doesn't stop them from being mostly right.

3) There is no number three, unless we're counting Nike-jitsu or Adidas Fu.

Visage

26-Dec-2004, 05:49 PM

I'd say
1) Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu (Possibly changable with Bagua)

2) JuJutsu

3) ITF Tae Kwon Do

notquitedead

27-Dec-2004, 08:57 PM

3-a grappling/groundfighting art
You may want to look into aikido a little bit more, it's not a 'groundfighting art'...

shaolin_hendrix

27-Dec-2004, 09:02 PM

Pakua Chang(Bagua Zhang, 8 Trigrams Boxing, literally 8 Trigrams Palm), Hsing-I Chuan (Xingyi Chuan, Fist of Form and Will, literally Form/Will Fist), and Taichi Chuan (Taiji Chuan, Grand Ultimate Fist).

Here's some other good combos:

Tiger Style(Fu Chuan, Hu Chuan, literally Tiger Fist), Crane Style (Pai Hao Chuan, Pak Hao Chuan, literally White Crane Fist)

Southern Fist (Nan Chuan), Northern Fist (Pei Chuan, Bei Chuan)

Kenjutsu (Art of the Sword), Iaijutsu (Art of Drawing the Sword, literally Art of Drawing)

Jeet Kune Do (Way of the Intercepting Fist), Vale Tudo (Anything Goes), Capoeira (Fighting Game)

American Wrestling, Greco-Roman Wrestling, Sambo (?,Russian Wrestling), Shiao Chiao (?, Chinese Wrestling), Mongolian Wrestling, any other type of wrestling you can think of

Savate (?, French Kickboxing), Wing Chun (Beautiful Springtime)

Here's a table about them:
names/internal or external/weapon?/nationalities/combos or hybrids of styles

Pakua, Taichi, Hsing-I/internal/no/Chinese/knowledge of all 3 required to learn Meteor Fist

Tiger, Crane/external/no/Chinese/Tiger-Crane Hung Gar, 5 Animals Choy Li Fut

Southern Fist, Northern Fist/external/no/Chinese/none that I know of, but Northern Fist, Southern Fist, and Lohan Chuan are all commonly called Shaolin Fist

Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu/external/yes/Japanese/Iaido, Kendo

Jeet Kune Do, Vale Tudo, Capoeira/external/no/Chinese, Portuguese, Brazilian/none that I know of

Wrestling (any)/external/no/various/different types have been mixed

Savate, Wing Chun/external/no/French, Chinese/none that I know of

GojuMaster

28-Dec-2004, 12:52 AM

http://www.geocities.com/alex_lll/Oficial-logo.gif I teach Goju Ryu Karate, for fitness and self defence. Ryu Kon Kai Kobudo just in case someone picks up a weapon, and Aikijutsu to complement my Goju Ryu.
Goju Ryu, being a "short" range karate style with a lot of "tai sabaki" (body shifting) lends itself to the application of strikes followed by rotational grab/twist/takedown techniques, therefore producing a more balanced and complete martial art.

In the Arts

Mawi

29-Dec-2004, 02:21 AM

MY combo ||| Muay Thai, G.BJJ, Muay Boran ||| I don't care if you can fly i can shoot you down.

shaolin_hendrix

01-Jan-2005, 02:51 AM

Here's one more combo:

San Shou (?, Chinese Kickboxing), Wushu (martial art)

Names/internal or external/weapon?/nationalities/combos or hybrids of styles

San Shou, Wushu/external/no/Chinese/none that I know of, but both are promoted by the Chinese government for the same reason.

shaolin_hendrix

01-Jan-2005, 02:57 AM

Note that pakua, hsing-i (probably), taichi, capoeira, jeet kune do, wing chun, and wushu all use weapons. The reason that they all say "no" in the "weapon?" category on my tables is because they are primarily empty-handed systems.

Fish Of Doom

01-Jan-2005, 03:09 AM

You may want to look into aikido a little bit more, it's not a 'groundfighting art'...

but vale tudo and jujutsu are, i meant by grappling/groundfighting a style that allowed me to takedown oponents from the clinch.

EDIT: even if aikido doesn't encompass groundfighting i can still stomp them and kick them, like in i take them to the round, kick their knees into smithereens and stomp their ribs and arms

Knight_Errant

01-Jan-2005, 05:20 PM

My ideal pick would be;
The MMA I'm doing
Escrima, for the weapons training
Muay thai- because.

bjjaxe

06-Jan-2005, 12:09 AM

Yeah, thats what the strikers thought they would do to the grapplers in UFC 1-5.

Sorry, but you simply would get taken down and destroyed attempting this.
Its been proven over and over and over again in mixed martial arts competitions. :rolleyes:

EDIT: even if aikido doesn't encompass groundfighting i can still stomp them and kick them, like in i take them to the round, kick their knees into smithereens and stomp their ribs and arms

Fish Of Doom

06-Jan-2005, 12:33 AM

excuse me, when did i mention anything about MMA competitions?
why accuse me for somethin i didn't do?
did i ever mention the UFC?

besides we train roundfighting at my karate academy, you'll know when a striking school encompasses ground fighting, when you try to get on top and you get axe kicked in the face.

besides we train attackin oponents who are on the gground and we know our fare share of takedowns as well, and if you throw me then it's easier for me to kick your knees and legs.

and last of all, i'm talking about STREET FIGHTING, NOT MA COMPETITIONS, they are NOT THE SAME THING.

Fish Of Doom

OBCT

06-Jan-2005, 12:44 AM

Pahuyut.
1. Muay Chiaya (Fitness, striking, Clinch, some locks and takedowns)
2. Muay Plam (Grappling, locks etc.)
http://www.ancientmuaythai.com/styles/muay_thai.htm
3. Judo with more traditional slant, less olympic sport orientated, including smaller joint locks (reinforce throws, takedowns, grapples and build up strength)

Pog

06-Jan-2005, 01:15 AM

I have to challenge the grade of the questioner. if you are a 1st dan in all these styles, then I call you a "tourist"! you are purely competent in most of the techniques you have been taught - and maybe have specialist skills in some. We all teach the same thing - we just choose different vehicles for learning.

OBCT

06-Jan-2005, 03:37 PM

Pog = 4th Dan TKD
Matt Liquid = ? (1st Dan in what ?)

bjjaxe

06-Jan-2005, 04:20 PM

I never said you DID mention UFC. But you were claiming you could just kick the hell out of guys if they tried to take you down, etc.

I showed just one of many counter examples where strikers thought they could do this and got taken down and destroyed anyway.

UFC, Pride, Pancraze...and more importantly Vale Tudo fights (especially the older ones) where they literally had NO rules, proves you are just spreading mythology.

Stop trying to pretend that somehow street fighting is sooooooooo different that suddenly UFC/Pride fighters would be defenseless against you :D

Fact is, if you havent actually tried your kicks on experienced grapplers you have absolutely no idea if they actual work.

You have provided no evidence at all that you could actually prevent a take down and that these kicks do one lick of good.

On the other hand, we have lots of evidence from vale tudo fights, some of which are basically street fights, that show the grappler will take you down and you wont be able to use your kicks.

Simply claiming: "besides we train roundfighting at my karate academy, you'll know when a striking school encompasses ground fighting, when you try to get on top and you get axe kicked in the face."

does not mean it actually works. Just your typical school-centric hype from an eager prideful student.

Go try this on BJJ, GJJ, sambo, or sub-wrestling student and THEN come back and tell us how you did :D
Defending the takedown is a very difficult skill to master on its own, and very few of the top fighters can even do it consistently. What makes you think you can???

I was a striker all my life and I already know the answer :cry:

excuse me, when did i mention anything about MMA competitions?
why accuse me for somethin i didn't do?
did i ever mention the UFC?

besides we train roundfighting at my karate academy, you'll know when a striking school encompasses ground fighting, when you try to get on top and you get axe kicked in the face.

besides we train attackin oponents who are on the gground and we know our fare share of takedowns as well, and if you throw me then it's easier for me to kick your knees and legs.

and last of all, i'm talking about STREET FIGHTING, NOT MA COMPETITIONS, they are NOT THE SAME THING.

Fish Of Doom

bjjaxe

06-Jan-2005, 04:49 PM

Point of interest.

Chuck Liddell is know for is awesome take down defense. Only the best grapplers can take him down.

Guess what? Chuck was a collegiate wrestler at Cal Poly.
He is also a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Purple Belt, maybe black by now.

In other words, he is a highly accomplished grappler as well as kick boxing champ.

It takes this level grappling to be able to defend against a grappler.

I suggest you try those techniques you are so confident of against a real grappler before you get yourself into trouble from over confidence.

OBCT

06-Jan-2005, 06:27 PM

Fish Of Doom

06-Jan-2005, 06:42 PM

Some of the most succesful stand-up fighters (strikers) in MMA tournaments are Muay Thai fighters, in fact as a majority most MMA places incorporate Muay Thai as a striking element. This IMO is for one reason; unlike most (not all) other striking arts MT deals effectively with the clinch, it has some elements of grappling in it.

Like it or not, a fight, street or MMA competition, if there is no KO strike, will end up in a grapple or at least a clinch.
Grapplers are not invulnerable, get that lucky strike in to the chin, temple etc (push that button) and they will drop to the ground like a hybrid cross between sleeping beauty and a sack of potatoes, but mostly, they'll get inside that 'axe-kick' you mention, take you to the floor and do nasty things to you.

p.s How do you axe-kick somebody, if they've already got you in the clinch ?

i mean when you're both on the ground, we train to kick the heck out of the other one as soon as we hit the ground.

also bjj axe sorry for being rude i tend to screw up like that sometimes, besides the fact i said i could do it never meant i could succeed, only i train it so in theory, i could do it(besides i'm 14, short and overweight i'm snot stupid enough to try and fight a UFC fighter...yet... :D )

jinroh-81

25-May-2005, 04:42 PM

Jujitsu/Judo

Boxing (or Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Savate etc etc)

BJJ

Boxing, obviously for awesome punching.

Jujitsu for great grappling and take down techniques with some added punch and kick defences.

BJJ for ground work, extra grappling.

jabcrosshook

25-May-2005, 10:42 PM

•Striking - Kickboxing OR Muay Thai

•Grappling - Judo OR Ju Jitsu

•Weapons - Escrima

Stuart H

26-May-2005, 11:42 AM

Norm's choices are the norm (pun intended) LOL.

jinroh-81

26-May-2005, 12:49 PM

MMA is grappler dominated sport, pure and simple. A fighter who only pocesses striking abilities MAY not win a NHB fight.

The unintentional point UFC and other NHB events have made is that to become to a great fiighter one must learn two or more distinct styles.

Even Mussashi stated "that a person must know the way of all professions", and the Samurai's learnt Jujitsu along with their sword skills. MMA stopped the stupid politics of the Traditional Martial Arts world, and basically enforced Bruce Lee's theory of cross training and a better understanding of other Martial Arts.

But the MMA world has created a few individuals who are over Zealous, act like immature teenagers and insult other martial arts. May I remind them that you're not invincible and every martial art has their good and bad points. BJJ is not an invincible system, Muay Thai is not an invincible system, there is NO such thing as an invincible system. Wake up and smell the sh*t you're shovelling.

In K-1 Muay Thai fighters don't win every event.

In recent years more and more Judo fighters are beating the best BJJ fighters in NHB.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/judovsbjj.html

Does this mean Muay Thai and BJJ are crap? No

Does it mean Judo is the best? No

Does it mean Muay Thai is not effective anymore? No

I respect all Martial Arts from Chow Gar Praying Mantis to Brazillian/Gracie Jujitsu, we should respect each other and learn from each other. But no one will ever will.

Tribalweapon

27-May-2005, 07:50 AM

striking-Thai boxing
grappling/groundwork-submission wrestling
weapons-Kali/Arnis

TheCount

27-May-2005, 12:19 PM

Striking : Muay Thai
Grappling : BJJ/Sub Wrestling
Weapons : Kobudo

Martial_Mathers

27-May-2005, 08:23 PM

hux

28-May-2005, 01:02 AM

ThaiBxr

29-May-2005, 01:53 AM

Well basically if you're looking to compete in a NHB environment, what you need is...

Submission Wrestling - that doesn't need to be explained
Boxing - very important for punching and evasion
Muay Thai - indisputably the most effective standup striking art.

You want to really avoid things like TKD Kung Fu and Karate as they really won't do you much of any good.

Hades

06-Jun-2005, 05:03 PM

how 'bout Boxing, Muay thay, and Judo?

Sonshu

10-Jun-2005, 06:37 AM

The MMA being a grappler dominated sport is not correct - its a MMA dominated sport.

Single style grapplers and strikers are a minority to be clear.

The Decay of Meaning

17-Jul-2005, 11:22 PM

Wrestling, Ju Jitsu, Muay Thai.

Or...

Wrestling, Judo, Boxing.

What do you guys think of these combinations?

shaolin_hendrix

18-Jul-2005, 12:30 AM

ultimate combo:
1 weapon style
1 hitting style
1 grappling style
1 internal style

oni_sensei

18-Jul-2005, 03:07 AM

TKD
Budo Taijutsu
Judo

Sheyja

18-Jul-2005, 10:44 PM

I'd have to say Ba Gua, Hsing-I and Tai Chi, Chuan forms of all. The three of those are so devastating.

shaolin_hendrix

18-Jul-2005, 11:33 PM

I'd have to say Ba Gua, Hsing-I and Tai Chi, Chuan forms of all. The three of those are so devastating. I agree. They've been proven to complement each other greatly. Pakua, Hsing-I, and often Taichi are taught together in many schools. Some schools require students to learn these styles before learning other styles, like Liu He Ba Fa and Liu Hsing Chuan.

Korpy

20-Jul-2005, 12:16 AM

Aikido, Judo, Hapkido

or Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, Judo, Hapkido

or Danzan Ryu Jujitsu, Judo, Hapkido

:cool:

dark_blade15

26-Jul-2005, 02:34 AM

If we are talking about self defence id choose...
aikijutsu/jujutsu:grappleing, locking, throws
wing chun: punching and kicking
kali: weapon training

NaughtyKnight

27-Jul-2005, 03:40 AM

Muay Thai, Judo and maybe BJJ

BRECKDOG

27-Jul-2005, 11:36 PM

Muay Thai, Freestyle wrestling, sub grappling (bjj without Gis)

This is the only combination that will make you a complete fighter for a UFC, Pride event. (apart from MMA)

NaughtyKnight

28-Jul-2005, 05:06 AM

No its not.

tekkengod

28-Jul-2005, 05:20 AM

The MMA being a grappler dominated sport is not correct - its a MMA dominated sport.

Single style grapplers and strikers are a minority to be clear.

So true. i think what most people mean is that Grappling is such a large piece of the MMA pie.

faster than you

30-Jul-2005, 03:45 PM

Muay Thai, Judo and maybe BJJ
lol at, "maybe bjj."

NaughtyKnight

30-Jul-2005, 11:49 PM

Why is that.

shaolin_hendrix

02-Aug-2005, 10:12 PM

Why is that.
Many people would choose BJJ over Judo. Muay Thai and BJJ are an extremely popular mix in competitions like the UFC. Most of the time when a BJJ person fights a person who does a standing style, the BJJ person wins because the person who does the standing style doesn't know what to do once they're on the ground. BJJ is considered an important part of an MMA fighter's arsenal.

NaughtyKnight

02-Aug-2005, 11:37 PM

So, never saw in the question anything about UFC.

I think Judo and MT are a damn good mix for sd.

shaolin_hendrix

04-Aug-2005, 05:24 PM

So, never saw in the question anything about UFC.

I think Judo and MT are a damn good mix for sd.
I was trying to explain why "faster than you" said lol at, "maybe bjj."

NaughtyKnight

05-Aug-2005, 02:50 AM

Im still waiting for him to reply.

TalkMartialArts

05-Aug-2005, 10:54 PM

The problem of mixing three arts is time. Unless you are a professional who dedicates all his time (free time) to training.
Then I'd say Kyokushin, BJJ and Bodybuilding may be a good combination.

shaolin_hendrix

06-Aug-2005, 02:26 AM

The problem of mixing three arts is time. Unless you are a professional who dedicates all his time (free time) to training.
Then I'd say Kyokushin, BJJ and Bodybuilding may be a good combination.Bodybuilding?

TalkMartialArts

06-Aug-2005, 11:01 AM

Bodybuilding?
Ok, it's not a martial art, and I don't mean bodybuilding for competitions, but it's a necessary factor in MMA today. You can't get those muscles we see in professional fights in the dojo (or anything similar). You can put it this way: substitute one of the three arts with bodybuildning.

Juego Todo

06-Aug-2005, 07:57 PM

The standard 3 aspects of combat: striking, grappling & weaponry.

1) Boxing/Muay Thai (MT, if you had to pick only one, but both if possible b/c boxing has a wider range of hands and evasion techniques);

2) Judo/BJJ/freestyle or GR wrestling (hard to pick one; judo has throws that can end a fight immediately on concrete; BJJ has lower-body submissions but sacrifices the back a lot which might be hard on pavement; wrestling lacks submissions but has supreme body-control);

3) Filipino MA of Arnis/Eskrima/Kali (armed & unarmed; edged & impact weapons are trained; everyday items can be adapted for use as weapons; rounds out the unarmed physical training mentioned in the first two aspects of combat).

There could be many other possible combos. This is just my personal mix. When push comes to shove, it all comes down to this:

What arts would you really rely upon to save your life when death looks you in the eye?

(Be honest with yourself; you know what you would choose. Forget about how popular or how cool something looks or sounds. If something simple can get the job done, then why bother wasting your time with something flashy or flowery that takes up the time that could've been spent on learning something that can effectively increase your chances of survival and of those around you whom you care for dearly?)

However, since the question changed at one point to ask what 3 arts would be chosen for MMA ("UFC", as the threadstarter'd mentioned later), then the same as above, minus the FMA. Thus, the third combative art, if one had to be chosen, would be WTF TKD. Their hand techniques are pitiful and their grappling is basically non-existent, so why choose WTF TKD? Because their large arsenal of kicking techniques could prove to be valuable, since there are kicks for almost every angle of attack. Also, their body movements are quick, evasive and also generate power with the torque of the body in execution of techniques. This methodology can be adapted for use with the two arts mentioned previously with possibly devastating effects towards the opponent.

It's assumed, expected & understood that constant physical conditioning should be the common denominator in all three arts, so it wasn't listed as a separate art unto itself.

tekkengod

06-Aug-2005, 08:50 PM

Muay Thai. BJJ. Kali.

covers all 4. Stand-up/clinch/groung/weapons. what more do you need?

Leo_E_49

07-Aug-2005, 03:31 PM

Capoeria, Tai Chi and TKD. :p

Well, it might work...

Actually I think as long as you have striking, grappling and weapon training and train in against resisting opponents it doesn't make too much of a difference. (Imagine full speed contact Tai Chi, wouldn't that be a sight to see! :D)

dome49

08-Aug-2005, 11:09 AM

i like the prospects of jujitsu, muay thai and JKD.

dom.

republiksyawyan

13-Aug-2005, 09:45 AM

Hey, guys just thought Ide throw in my 2 cents.
If you were to train for life and death situations then
yawyan-sibukan/bjj/arnis would be a great combination, and come to think about it, it would work great for the ring aswell.

It should be the norm that most martial artists train at the gym regularly but the honest to god truth is nobody really has the time for everything, except a certain few whom have made their bodies and arts their vehicles for income.

I plan on going pro (ufc/pride/k-1) and plan on becoming a personal bodygaurd afterwords ,(im a bouncer now).

Go ju ru Karate do (which I had previously trained in)has great techniques that have become invaluable to me now that I fight mt fighters and train in yy. It just goes to show you that in the world of mma all arts can be beneficial, some more then others. But I would def recomend yawyan over mt just because I fight mt fighters on a very regulare basis and even though it is so similare I can tell the difference by the typs of attacks. More deadlier elbows and just more overly unexpected.

All I can say to better explain is jab, jab, punch, low round house kick, then mountain storm, then climbing heavenly knee, finished off with flury punches then clinch and knees. Such is the difference of yy and mt. I thought it would be a good idea for me to post my routine for every one to see how I mix my fma and mma
together on a weekly basis. It isnt enough just to say learn this and this and also do this , so I wanted to show how I cope with my stack I hope you enjoy.

Well this is my work out program for the week.
Monday,@ the gym with my mass/strength program http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hitworkout.htm

tuesday,I spar with mauy-thai fighters

wed.gym and program http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hitworkout.htm

thursday,I train in my art called yawyan www.yawyan.com

friday,@ the gym with my program and then do pad work with mauy thai fighters

saturday,I grapple and free spar full contact

sunday,I grapple and free spar with technique over view in yawyan.

Then I start all over again.

My training consists of 3 skipping sessions for 5 min then 50 push ups and v crunches.

Once that is done 4 sessions of 3 min of shadow kickboxing while ring dancing trying to incorperate new combos every session.

Once that is done bagging begins where alot of the pad work and hitting different punching bags comes into play.

Then I iether spar or learn new techniques.

On grappling days I tend to incorperate sweeping and rushing into the shadow boxing so that I can become more comfortable with taking an apponent to the ground via clinch and lock.

I only do 40 sit ups on my gym days so I dont overtrain my abs .10 reps per side.

Supplementation is also key the right supplements can give you that extra edge to keep you in tip top form.

With in the very first week of my program /fma training I noticed my stomach has begun to shrink and my overall body has become much more tighter and fuller(slightly bigger) looking. Why be super big and slow when you can be the max weight for your body structure and flaot like a butterfly and hit like an atom bomb.

Try my routine and tell me what you think.
Of course you would have to insert your own martial art or start training in yawyan.;-)

The supplements I take are
BSL krea-alkyline
mri no2
animal stack 2
animal pack
humagrow
joint boost
glucosamine pills
fish oil pills
b12 pills for red blood cells

And I eat anything I want pretty much , but I usually tend to stay on the healthier side of pigging out.

I hope this took the question and comments about which martials arts and the insurtion of body building. :rolleyes:

scorpiousmac

13-Aug-2005, 12:33 PM

Do you have a life outside of training?All very commendable but that would drive me insane.I'm going to stick with wado ryu,boxing and aikido as this is what I'm training in now and as a beginner any more changing of styles would do more harm than good

Hiroji

13-Aug-2005, 02:05 PM

i would choose Muay Thai, BJJ and windmilling.

Simple

15-Aug-2005, 04:06 AM

Sonshu

15-Aug-2005, 11:20 AM

burmese boxing+JKD+tai chi

ground fighting is not needed, to get somone on the ground or grabin him, specific movement and strength is required, specific movement is also applied.

so yea thats why im not a big fan of judo/bjj

With respect your not a big fan of BJJ and Judo as you know little about ground fighitng. It is important to know at least the basics as when you start having real fights you will realise that people do get knocked to the ground and you need to know what to do if your there and also what not to do if you knock someone over.

Tai Chi - know I know you have not got a clue of what your on about. Tai Chi is not a strong contender at all for a good combat ready mix.

NaughtyKnight

15-Aug-2005, 11:24 AM

Tai Chi? LOL

Mushroom

15-Aug-2005, 12:33 PM

Currently I'm doing Pak Mei+Vale Tudo concentrating mainly on subs. I would like my 3rd to be some FMA. Like Silat or something.

But doing two at the moment is already a stretch on my wallet, even though my classes are super-cheap.

NewLearner

15-Aug-2005, 03:59 PM

I currently am doing TKD and have a fair amount of experience in collegiate/folkstyle as well as freestyle wrestling. I would tend to think that with the mat work experience that I already have, JJJ would be a better choice as an add on than BJJ. What do you guys think? What is the opinion on Small Circle style?

Simple

15-Aug-2005, 05:43 PM

With respect your not a big fan of BJJ and Judo as you know little about ground fighitng. It is important to know at least the basics as when you start having real fights you will realise that people do get knocked to the ground and you need to know what to do if your there and also what not to do if you knock someone over.

Tai Chi - know I know you have not got a clue of what your on about. Tai Chi is not a strong contender at all for a good combat ready mix.

i like tai chi its useful, but i dont use the methods in tai chi, only the hand movements. Your hands/body/leg/ are like snakes, they can get out of any tight situation.

Hiroji

15-Aug-2005, 05:53 PM

i like tai chi its useful, but i dont use the methods in tai chi, only the hand movements. Your hands/body/leg/ are like snakes, they can get out of any tight situation.

Simple, do you really think tai chi would be usefull for this? yoga would be far more affective!

republiksyawyan

16-Aug-2005, 05:50 AM

yoga lol ,Honestly though ,your walking to your car with your girl/wife /whatever and some 6 ft heavy looking guy wants to jack you for your car keys and valuables with or with out a weapon. I wouldnt risk the chance of giving this guy my stuff only to have him abduct my spouse. In all respects you need to learn striking,judo/grappling,and weapons training. In life or death I would rather know how to disarm and choke my assailant then beat him sensless.

But yeah yoga and tai chi could work might inspier them to join you in meditating aswell.

oni_sensei

16-Aug-2005, 12:09 PM

*sigh* Internal Martial Arts are fine, but you've chosen Tai Chi for all the wrong reasons, Simple.

Sonshu

16-Aug-2005, 12:41 PM

Thats why he is called Simple

Simple

16-Aug-2005, 06:08 PM

Thats why he is called Simple

im simple but deadly, muhahaha. ANywayz until someone around my block beat me in wrestling than ill believe tai chi is useless.

For the record these people weigh 40+ heavier than me

Sonshu

17-Aug-2005, 07:45 AM

im simple but deadly, muhahaha. ANywayz until someone around my block beat me in wrestling than ill believe tai chi is useless.

For the record these people weigh 40+ heavier than me

40lbs heavier and not too sharp in the brain department. Assuming they have not training in wrestling then its possible you can beat them. But in a real fight it is different as there will be punches coming towards you.

Also from your posts is seems you are very much a noob in the grappling arts. I have been doing it for a fair while and hardly ever get tapped out but it still happens recently by someone about 60 lbs lighter than me. Simply because he was bloody good.

You will learn in time.

Simple

17-Aug-2005, 04:10 PM

40lbs heavier and not too sharp in the brain department. Assuming they have not training in wrestling then its possible you can beat them. But in a real fight it is different as there will be punches coming towards you.

Also from your posts is seems you are very much a noob in the grappling arts. I have been doing it for a fair while and hardly ever get tapped out but it still happens recently by someone about 60 lbs lighter than me. Simply because he was bloody good.

You will learn in time.

Dunno, maybe im bloody good, but i would be ignorant for thinking like this.

bjjaxe

18-Aug-2005, 03:17 PM

Simple is either trolling or hasnt been paying attention for the last 10 years. If you dont know ground fighting, it doesnt matter what you know, a ground fighter is going to mop the floor with you.

Dont believe me? You better stop by your local BJJ club and ask to wrestle one of the white belts. After a mere white belt plays with you like a fiddle, go roll with a blue belt. When you are choked unconscience in like 20 seconds, come back here and tell us if you still think ground fighting is useless.

Oh, and fight a guy that weighs less than you, just to sink the point in even further :)

I had a over a decade of TKD/Karate/KungFu before I went up against my first BJJ guy. It was a rude awakening to say the least.

You have a snow balls chance in hell against one of these guys being ignorant of ground fighting. Go watch UFC 1,2,3!!!

Sheyja

18-Aug-2005, 03:25 PM

Ba Gua, Taiji and Xingyi.

It's just gotta be devastating!

Sonshu

19-Aug-2005, 04:45 AM

Dunno, maybe im bloody good, but i would be ignorant for thinking like this.

No just simple like your name says.

republiksyawyan

19-Aug-2005, 10:33 AM

I have to agree with the masses when it comes to grappling or judo persay you need to at least know what to do if placed in a situation where your on your back and the guys trying to ground and pound. If you think your tough then hey grappling is for you to, take the hit only so you can put your assailant into a triangle chocke.

But honestly speaking though my master always says to me that fighting in the mma cage is ten times worse then fighting on the street,because the guys in the cage are their to hurt you and they know how. While the guy on the street only knows how to brawl. Hey simple theirs nothing wrong with tai chi or any internal martial arts,aslong as you dont plan on relying on just that when sparring.

Nick K

19-Aug-2005, 10:40 AM

Anyone mention Greco-roman wrestling, boxing and *proper* TKD?

Sonshu

19-Aug-2005, 11:58 AM

Yeah just not proper TKD I dont think. :Angel:

Nick K

22-Aug-2005, 10:33 AM

OK - improper TKD, done wearing thongs and a beaver skin hat. That'll make Wanderlei Silva very nervous.

Seriously, when I say *proper* TKD, I mean pressure tested backed up by a correct and effective conditioning regime. Just like mine! :eek:

Sonshu

22-Aug-2005, 02:18 PM

So what is the tested and backed up stuff you do which is different to others?

Nick K

23-Aug-2005, 08:22 AM

The 'eek' on the end was as near as I could get to tongue in cheek - I'm famous for a a particularly tippy tappy style

If you want to compete at my Dojang, you have the option of full contact training (adults only), semi contact and separate sparring/conditioning classes which are rigorous and involve ringcraft instruction, instruction in the niceties of the rules as well as pad/partner drills and sparring. In the other classes in general, sparring is usually kept llght and technical, although there is a lot of practical self defense stuff. We've got a couple of good fighters who take kickboxing as well, and some national class and one world class semi contact players. The point I originally wanted make was that it is possible to use TKD as an effective ring art with the right training -the problem with the reputation that TKD has now is that it is generally not done sufficiently rigourously. However, considering the epidemic of obesity and inactivity in our society, anything that gets people moving should be thanked!

Sonshu

23-Aug-2005, 09:12 AM

Nick K

23-Aug-2005, 10:20 AM

Sonshu

23-Aug-2005, 10:42 AM

Absolutely agree. Most TKD competitions encourage by their points system techniques that are flashy and impressive, but not necessarily best from a 'effort-effectivenes' point of view. Still - it is TKD, not Muay Thai - bit like comparing ping pong and lawn tennis - some stuff in common, but different.

That is what many people in TKD do not understand - what they do is for fun and fitness not as fight orientated as other arts and styles. When you try to educate them they then get all agro.

NewLearner

24-Aug-2005, 02:47 AM

I think its possible to use it but you have to be a cut above the rest in most cases as often it falls short of impressing.

You have to be a cut above the rest in anything to impress. I have known boxers and wrestlers that have gotten their butts kicked royally. I have known 280 lb football players that have gotten their butt kicked by guys roughly half their size.

TKD will work wonders for self defense if the person applies it with common sense. I know we practice competition sparring but we also practice effective self defense techniques such as low kicks, knees, and elbows.

Sonshu

24-Aug-2005, 07:20 AM

I have in 14 years never met anyone that has shown me TKD could be in the top 3 mix as per the thread.

TKD is ok as an art and even the 3 clubs I have visited to train in produced the same sub standard point sparring people that art is often sterotyped as.

Arts like boxing can produce even as an avarage person someone with some decent skills for fighting.

inosanto1

26-Aug-2005, 05:50 PM

i would have to agree TKD as an art is good, application wise ia have not yet come across anyone that can use it, i know a number of TKDists and thay are not used to the contact Kali JKD and BJJ combine well, but i say that because i train in those and have been able to apply them

Any other thoughts :D

NewLearner

26-Aug-2005, 07:33 PM

Well Sonshu, I think I would have to respectfully disagree. TKD, TSD, Karate can all be effective if the person uses it properly. Self defense is more having a mindset than anything else. Competition in a sport is all about know the rules and strategies. TKD can easily fit in that mix. As someone else mentioned, you need stiking, grappling, and groundfighting. TKD is certainly striking. It has already been shown that a significant amount of the kicks used in one of the recent UFC competions was TKD kicks.

inosanto1

26-Aug-2005, 07:44 PM

i admit that i do not have a great deal of knowledge of the art,, i do agree that any art can be used within the UFC, there are rules and the fighters are face to face (at least initially), i am aware that the art is more based on it's kicks than most arts, outside is a whole different ball game, generally high kicks donot work as most combat is close range, now i am not saying that all TKD schools do not pressure test the material thay learn, but from my experiences, it has come as a bit of a shock to them. :D

Sonshu

27-Aug-2005, 12:53 PM

MMA events also have shown for many of us high kicks are not practical.

NewLearner

27-Aug-2005, 02:01 PM

And you know, TKD doesn't a single kick that can land below the head level. ;)

fengshougungfu

27-Aug-2005, 02:16 PM

Hmm Best 3 Hmmm Hmmm Hmm Tough One

Either Kung Fu Or Karate
Jujitsu Or Aikido
And Fencing Or Iaido

Sonshu

27-Aug-2005, 04:53 PM

And you know, TKD doesn't a single kick that can land below the head level. ;)

Well yet to be blown away by a TKD person.

bjjaxe

27-Aug-2005, 05:31 PM

The NHB/Vale Tudo evidence points to 4 styles that work.
BJJ
Wrestling
Muay Thai
Judo

You can subsitute a bit of the BJJ with sambo, shoot fighting, etc.

Sorry but, all these guys picking karate, kungfu, TKD, and other unproven styles, have been asleep for the last 10 years.

Why assume any of this works if you have no evidence for it? Doesnt make any sense.

If you had to pick only two, it would be BJJ/Muay-Thai.
Any three, it would be BJJ,Muay-Thai, and Judo

If you could pick 6, it would be:
BJJ,Sambo,Wrestling - the complete ground fighting set
Muay-Thai, Boxing - for the complete striking package with clinch fighting
Judo - for the throws

Slindsay

27-Aug-2005, 09:39 PM

inosanto1

27-Aug-2005, 10:08 PM

Thai boxin,yes,BJJ,JKD Kali and Escrima, it must also be stated that JKD does encompass some of the facets of the other arts as well and has also been pressure tested, Ron Balicki has competed and i am aware that many fighters go to Karl Tanswell for training. :D

TKD, again, great art form but, self-defence, not so sure :D , i agree,there are no kicks that i know of that a low, the hand techniques are not very fluis or powerful(only going on what i have seen and sparred with)

inosanto1

27-Aug-2005, 10:11 PM

not really what i meant, but, there is a difference between the application of an art and the art itself, again, this is down to the practitioner and the instructor to look at the positives and negatives of the art and experiment

oni_sensei

27-Aug-2005, 11:03 PM

Why assume any of this works if you have no evidence for it? Doesnt make any sense.

Makes perfect sense actually. WE KNOW IT WORKS. Oh sure, we don't have the benefit of having thousands of videos, DVDs and computer files out there showing us beating the crap out of another person in a cage, but most martial artists aren't out to prove a point. We don't have to prove anything to you. We're getting the hands on experience just like you (or at least I hope you are), and that's all the proof we need.

inosanto1

27-Aug-2005, 11:51 PM

oni_sensei

28-Aug-2005, 12:14 AM

let's not forget here, the MA is actually there for combat, they were created for that purpose, if you wish your art to be applicable, mix it up, pressure test, sparr with other arts, get out there get on with it and start learning, find out what really works, i know that the arts i have mentioned have worked for me and that my instructor pressure tests every Friday and Saturday night :D

I already do. Through training with other schools, I already know that what I have learnt works, now it's a matter of finding an even better outlet through which to test it.

bjjaxe

28-Aug-2005, 06:31 PM

Dont put words in my mouth. I said no such thing.

What im saying is, if you dont have a history of actual full contact application against various other martial arts, you really dont know how effective your style is and you are only assuming it is effective.

If it doesnt work in a ring, I wouldnt expect it to work in a real street fight where much dirtier techniques can be used.

Indeed. Remember kids, it has to work in the ring or you aren't really doing MA! :rolleyes:

bjjaxe

28-Aug-2005, 06:39 PM

Sorry, but hands on experience against your buddies at your school does not constitute proof in any way.

In the early UFCs, the kung fu, karate, etc, practioners all ran around saying the same thing "WE KNOW IT WORKS" ;)

The "we dont have to prove anything to you line" is nothing more than a cop out.

Ive taken martial arts all my life and I know for a fact I could go back to my old schools and destroy my previous TKD/Karate/KungFu opponents using my newest MA skills (BJJ). How do I know? Ive tried it :D

Now *that* my friend is proof. Dont make assumptions, or you are in for a rude awakening. If you believe your style "works" you better have a lot of hardcore evidence to back it up and not just mere hearsay.

If you take a TMA like karate/TKD or kungfu and cant answer the following question with a resounding YES, then the truth is, you havent a clue.

1) Have you ever sparred with a student of BJJ, Muay-Thai or other well known *proven* NHB style MA, and consistently won???

YES OR NO?!??!? :D

Makes perfect sense actually. WE KNOW IT WORKS. Oh sure, we don't have the benefit of having thousands of videos, DVDs and computer files out there showing us beating the crap out of another person in a cage, but most martial artists aren't out to prove a point. We don't have to prove anything to you. We're getting the hands on experience just like you (or at least I hope you are), and that's all the proof we need.

inosanto1

28-Aug-2005, 08:07 PM

ouch!!!!
answer has to be.......YES!!! :D
consitantly trained and sparred with a number of BJJ guys and various other MAtists, although, to a certain extent, that is just MA style against MAstyle, and although BJJ has its' positives, it is like many other MA, only as good as the people studying. :D

There are various arts in my club Kendo,BJJ, Shoot, Wado Ryu, TKD and boxing, so quite a mix really, i i get to have experiences and learn from those, and i have to say, sparring at our club can be a serious game

Have you ever been a situation outside that has gone to the ground?

Since most fights last in the region of, well, 30 seconds or less , i find tht situation hard to believe, considering the hard work required on the ground.

oni_sensei

28-Aug-2005, 10:03 PM

Sorry, but hands on experience against your buddies at your school does not constitute proof in any way.

School?? I haven't been to school in five years. Not that that's really got any relevance.

In the early UFCs, the kung fu, karate, etc, practioners all ran around saying the same thing "WE KNOW IT WORKS" ;)

Ah, this argument again. That's what you get when you don't cross-train.

The "we dont have to prove anything to you line" is nothing more than a cop out.

No, it's 100% true. What exactly do we have to prove to [/b]you[/b]? Or more to the point, why should we even concern ourselves with you?

I've taken martial arts all my life and I know for a fact I could go back to my old schools and destroy my previous TKD/Karate/KungFu opponents using my newest MA skills (BJJ). How do I know? Ive tried it :D

You're not the only one whose done martial arts since they could crawl. I also know for a fact that I could go back to all my old schools and come out on top, even without having BJJ experience.

Now *that* my friend is proof. Dont make assumptions, or you are in for a rude awakening. If you believe your style "works" you better have a lot of hardcore evidence to back it up and not just mere hearsay.

Not again. My evidence lies with my personal experience. I'll admit it right here and now that I don't have solid, material evidence that I can just upload to the web for your viewing pleasure. I don't see why I should need it either, especially when I'm not out to prove anything to anyone but myself.

If you take a TMA like karate/TKD or kungfu and cant answer the following question with a resounding YES, then the truth is, you havent a clue.

1) Have you ever sparred with a student of BJJ, Muay-Thai or other well known *proven* NHB style MA, and consistently won???

YES OR NO?!??!? :D

Yes.

thai_chris

29-Aug-2005, 06:28 AM

I would like to add my pick

Muay Thai
Wrestling
BJJ

I find these work extremely well for me, and fit in well with my bodytype.

I also find, these have been "tested" in actual full contact arena's,
and actually work.

I'm new here, so could someone explain all this "Taekwondo could compete
with any art under the sun". Im sorry guys, having a first dan in taekwondo, and now competing in muay thai, you guys really are way off if you even think taekwondo will remotely help you in a full contact arena.

Thai_Chris

inosanto1

29-Aug-2005, 05:09 PM

what made you move away from TKD and what type of wrestling, are not many of the movements the same from that and BJJ and how do you blend the 3.

thai_chris

29-Aug-2005, 11:10 PM

I moved from taekwondo as i found it didnt work. At the school i was
at, things were being taught incorrectly, and people were getting cleaned
up because of this. Im not sure on exact style, but the things i have done
seem very very smilar to a freestyle wrestling. We mianly concentrate on
the wrestling for when we are on our feet, in a clinch etc. Once we hit the ground, its BJJ tactics, but until then we try and approach it with a wrestling mindset. Yes, they are extremely similar. I believe that just helps blend my standup game with my ground game. Wrestling really seemed to be the
key to doing that.

And i beg to differ. Wrestling and Thai combine extremely well. The striking and wrestling give me a very good standup and clinch fighting range, and the bjj is there for when i hit the ground.

Nick K

30-Aug-2005, 08:14 AM

I'm going to stand my ground. It's not TKD itself - it's the way it's usually taught and the way that people usually train. The sport side has become so rarified now with trmendous emphasis on high kicks that if you train solely for TKD sparring your fighting (not sparring) skills become neglected. However, there are low kicks in the TKD curriculum, and one that I've not seen anywhere else, bityuro chagi, twisting kick, which is a cracker for the inside of your opponenets thigh.

I am stressing that I am not a good example of a TKD hard man, BTW. But I cannot see the art itself being the limiting factor in it's effectiveness at it's optimal striking range. However, it does not cover all the ranges.

thai_chris

30-Aug-2005, 11:15 AM

Yes and no. Please let me throw some discussion points around ,as to
why these arts did not work for me. And yes, i have done quite a bit
of thinking on why i had to change style to fully adapt to the full contact arena.

Firstly, taekwondo does have some good points. However, training, more specifically sparring is not done to the point which adrenalin releases in two players. The bad side of this? You never actually train yourself to get used to the effects of adrenalin. The dry mouth, everything slowing slightly, hell, even the blood of the body is retracted into the internal organs to help protect the body. I have found from my experiences, that when you know you will be hit hard in sparring(and by hard i mean a good shot may well ko you)your body is more likely to adrenalize(if thats a word, but i hope you guys get the concept im on about). This is why most people fall apart on the street as they ARE NOT used to the onset of adrenalin, nor do they know how to fight in such a condition.

Secondly, there is not enough emphasis on hitting. Yes, i know i will get all the TMA guys saying you dont have to practice to hit 100 percent of the time to learn to punch. Well no you dont, but in most fights i have seen TMA guys in, you know what happens? The TMA guy, never having really tried to hit a moving target with a full power blow, over extends himself because he isnt used to attacking that way.

Another scientific principle i would like to refer to is Hicks law. This law states that reaction time doubled for each response to a situation. This is why i found aikido did not work for me. To many responses to a single attack, therefore it complicates matters. Also i believe this law isnt obeyed in enough martial arts. Taekwondo has how many kicks? Really i think that is overdoing it a bit. Apart from round kicks, push kicks, what really will work? And will it be as effective as those ive already mentioned?

Also, boxers have the least amount of bodily weapons available in any martial art, yet how effective are they with only those two weapons?

Sorry guys, bit of a long post. However, these are the reasons i have come up with why these traditional arts did not help me in the full contact arena.
I have always wondered why these traditional arts were not as effective as others. Its partly training, but i dont believe it can be rectified completely without completely changing the emphasis of the art itself, and with most
intructors i have met, that doesnt seem to feasible an idea.

Thai_Chris

Sonshu

30-Aug-2005, 12:24 PM

The other side is many people come to train in at clubs I have trained at and taught at.

They come in with a nice neat gi and dark black belt. Its all ironed and pressed and they expect to leave like that.

So when they leave having sweatted and worked out loads and then had people trying to hit or submit them it then leaves them feeling a little dejected as its a hard work out, harder than a lot are used to and then there is the not doing so well at sparring bit which can put people off. Being given the run around by someone with no belt and 6 months training can put people who have trained for 3-6 years off coming back as its a big dent in the ego.

Thai Chris for my part you are on the money.
:Angel:

oni_sensei

30-Aug-2005, 12:36 PM

Firstly, taekwondo does have some good points. However, training, more specifically sparring is not done to the point which adrenalin releases in two players. The bad side of this? You never actually train yourself to get used to the effects of adrenalin. The dry mouth, everything slowing slightly, hell, even the blood of the body is retracted into the internal organs to help protect the body. I have found from my experiences, that when you know you will be hit hard in sparring(and by hard i mean a good shot may well ko you)your body is more likely to adrenalize(if thats a word, but i hope you guys get the concept im on about). This is why most people fall apart on the street as they ARE NOT used to the onset of adrenalin, nor do they know how to fight in such a condition.

Secondly, there is not enough emphasis on hitting. Yes, i know i will get all the TMA guys saying you dont have to practice to hit 100 percent of the time to learn to punch. Well no you dont, but in most fights i have seen TMA guys in, you know what happens? The TMA guy, never having really tried to hit a moving target with a full power blow, over extends himself because he isnt used to attacking that way.

An overgeneralisation IMHO, but on the whole I agree. Many (I won't say most, because that's not something I can guarantee) schools don't emphasize contact in their sparring, nor do they refine their basic technique hard enough.

Another scientific principle i would like to refer to is Hicks law. This law states that reaction time doubled for each response to a situation. This is why i found aikido did not work for me. To many responses to a single attack, therefore it complicates matters. Also i believe this law isnt obeyed in enough martial arts. Taekwondo has how many kicks? Really i think that is overdoing it a bit. Apart from round kicks, push kicks, what really will work? And will it be as effective as those ive already mentioned?

Yes and no. I am familiar with Hick's law, and I understand how training a smaller amount of techniques more compared to having a wide variety of poor quality techniques is entirely more beneficial for the ring. However, Taekwondo is not the only art at fault for having many different responses to a situation. Muay Thai is not innocent either, with it's wide range of maneuvers, there are countless ways to respond to a given situation.

As for the amount of kicks in TKD, there are so many because that's what TKD's specialty is. Some are not entirely practical, however, the majority of TKD kicks are simply slight adaptations of the basics. For the basics, You've got front, back, side, roundhouse and spinning. By it's very nature, TKD as a full contact sport is based on surprise, and by having a wide variety of tools to use, you have more ways to catch your opponent off guard. Hick's law can be put aside IMHO, by not thinking about how you're going to respond beforehand, but by just doing it. Make your techniques second nature, and react.

Sorry guys, bit of a long post. However, these are the reasons i have come up with why these traditional arts did not help me in the full contact arena.
I have always wondered why these traditional arts were not as effective as others. Its partly training, but i dont believe it can be rectified completely without completely changing the emphasis of the art itself, and with most
intructors i have met, that doesnt seem to feasible an idea.

Thai_Chris

IMHO, it's all about the training. The toolboxes of striking in TKD and Muay Thai are quite similar, however, it's up to students and instructors to select the basic few that will do the job, and do the best they can at refining them. I will admit however, that Muay Thai has grabbed more tools from the bag, but that doesn't mean TKDers can't train their techniques just as hard.

NewLearner

30-Aug-2005, 12:41 PM

Thai_Chris,

You bring up some excellent points. You never know how you will react to a stressful situation until you get there. I know people that were scared sick until the bullets started flying (ex military) and then did what they were trained to with a precision that would blow your mind. I know some that did lots of combat and did flawlessly and then one time they freeze. No one would have thought it would happen to them, but it did. The best that a civilian can do is train to precision and hope they don't freeze. And that is regardless of style.

In the school that I am in, we do train punches. When I spar, I get most of my points from punching. We do train hitting a lot more than most styles. We train hitting with kicks and punches. We also have curriculum with knees and elbows and low kicks.

In most of the fights that you saw someone doing TMA let me ask two questions. Who won? and second, were the TMA guys real losers regardless of whether or not they had gotten their white belt? To be honest, I imagine that TKD, due to it's popularity and lack of trying to hurt someone,will attract lower quality students than MT which appeals to the hardcore kids. I think that both attract high quality students. I would also guess that students that are interested only in fitness or doing the art in forms will choose TKD over MT. The end result is that in terms of fighting, the average quality of students is probably higher in MT. That doesn't mean that MT is better than TKD. It means that MT on average has more hardcore fight oriented students.

I am not sure what Hick's law has to do with it. The human mind is far more complex than a computer. While a computer has to go through all the choices when something happens, the human mind doesn't. You see x happen and certain choices fall away. Your mind is far more efficient. You also never go through all the choices. In sparring, I use the front kick, twisting kick, side kick, hook kick, and roundhouse kick along with jabs, reverse punches, and hook punches. I never contemplate a spinning hook kick, an axe kick, etc. Can I do them? Yes. Will I do them in sparring or a real fight? No. I am too big and slow.

Does a boxer have less weapons and use them effectively? Yes. Will a good boxer lose to an equal quality TKD (important point) fighter? Probably. The TKD person has more skills and better range. Will the MT person of equal quality beat the TKD person who has focused on olympic style fighting? Probably. Will the MT person of equal quality beat a TKD person who trains the full curriculum and how to use it regularly? I would figure a toss up but possibly a little in the favor of the MT due to clinching.

You mentioned you did wrestling with MT. If you do wrestling with TKD you just added clinching to the TKD person. Then both clinch, knee, elbow, punch, and kick.

thai_chris

30-Aug-2005, 12:44 PM

Pretty much the same?? No they arent. I have trained in both, and i do not see a similarity at all. Taekwondo lacks hand techniques, kicks can be thrown more effectively(please read up on why american kickboxers in the 70's adopted the thai style roundhouse)the knee strikes are not the same, and their is no form of clinch fighting/neck grappling taught whatsoever.

To compare taekwondo to muay thai is like comparing touch football to rugby league.

I have trained both WTF and ITF styles of taekwondo. I now train
Muay Thai due to reasons in the post above, and the only reason i changed from boxing was the fact i liked to kick.

Wrestling IMHO does not place as much emphasis on control of the neck as
the neck grappling used by the thais. They do use neck control use, but
they also use alot more arm drags/grabs as well.

As an after point, i would like to refer to something bruce lee writes, where
as long as we are human there will only be one effective way of fighting,
as long as its effective its all the same.

Thai_Chris