Bujinkan Real or Fake ???

[CrazyDragon]

Ive recently been reading articles on the bujinkan, and some say that it does not teach the true aspects of ninjitsu.
For example, the bujinkan teach that all ninjas were honest law abiding gentlemen, who did not kill, but fought to save others and find enlightenment.

The real ninjas however did kill people if required and were theives and criminals who stole to fund poor resources.
Yet the bujinkan teach that all practitioners are and must be law abiding.

They also teach that the primary skill of the ninja in combat was taijutsu, when infact the ninja preffered to use weapons and any other methods which would complete the missions effectivly.
Fair or foul play...it does not matter.
The main fighting art used by ninjas was not taijutsu either.

So what are your views judging upone these facts, Is the bujinkan fake, and resorting to the use of propaganda?

[xplasma]

Bujinkan is quite real.

In the past, Shinobi, worked for and against the law. However, because past shinobi had bad dealings, doesn't means the current Grandmaster can't change the idea and ideals of the modern day ninpo practioner. Teaching ninpo for law abiding citizens.

Secondly, who ever said the primary skill was taijutsu? Taijutsu is a very improtant skill, but so is Biken-jutsu (blades) and bo-jutsu (staffs). In addition throwing weapons, chains, hand claws. etc.

did you just post this just piss off the bujinkan practioners? Hatsumi does have the official scrolls of Ninpo.

[CrazyDragon]

Hey dude,
Dont come down all heavy on me, im just curious,
if you read the post, i have read articles that provide these statements.
I dont know if they are true or not, im asking for views here, one article said it would be a waste of time training, because the techniques are over technical, fancy and would be difficult to perform in a real fight.

i need Views please, not abuse.

[Saz]

You already seem to have a view. The initial thread seems more than a little one sided.

Xplasma didn't give you abuse, he gave you his view, which is what you wanted. Its completely possible this thread could be construed as flamebait, but so long as no-one starts jumping on each other, it won't go that way right?

Do you have any links to these articles you mentioned? It may help if we could see them?

[Brad Ellin]

Hi CrazyDragon. Welcome to MAP. Plasma makes a very good point, maybe in the past the Ninja did do these things, but Hatsumi, as Soke, has decided that today's Ninja would be law abiding and decent human beings. Here's my question for you... Who wrote these articles? What was/is their motive? What sources do they draw upon?
Remeber, history is written by the winners or the ones in charge. Which in the historical Japan, were the Samurai and Royal Families. Sure, maybe yesterday's Ninja did all those bad things, but they did so to survive. Some of these so-called ninja were nothing more than Ronin or simple thugs and bullies. It was much more convient to lay the blame on the ninja and the ninja did little to refute these claims, it made people wary of them and frightened of them.
Today, however, Hatsumi has decided which direction we are to take. That's his perogative. He is Soke, or Head of the Family. He, probably better then anyone else alive, is more qualified to write about the history of the Ninja. He has the scrolls and historical accounts. Of course, he might be biased. But wo isn't when writing or relating about something near and dear to them?
All in all, research, read and make your own conclusions. If they contradict the norm, so what. At least you are making an effort to learn. Any more questions or if you need clarification of what I just wrote, then just ask.

[CrazyDragon]

Yep, i do have the article links, ive just started practicing bujinkan and this article made me think...hmmm am i practicing the right thing, or something different.
i must admit when i saw this i was abit cheesed off, cos ive been looking for a dojo everywhere, and when i finally found one and started, this came to my attention

Take a peek ... http://www.angelfire.com/rebellion/shinobi/

[YODA]

LOL!

I can hear the axe grinding on that link from here!

There's an old saying... Pointing out the weeds in another's garden does not remove those from yours.

[CrazyDragon]

Ahh well...so this link is a load of bull crap, and i shouldnt take any notice of it or the other links on it.

Ever get the feeling where you start something you wish you had'nt

Im beginning to feel abit icky here lol!!

[YODA]

Welcome to MAP CrazyDragon

Icky is sometimes good for the soul :D

[Brad Ellin]

Hmm... okay. I have read that site before. If you go down to the bottom, they admit some of it was exaggerated. And they provide NO proof of any of their statements. Instead they seem bent on insulting the BUjinkan and egging us on to start a flame war. Interesting, don't you think? Best bet, look for books written by scolars and historians. Not nameless faceless web entities. Or guys with an ax to grind. Some of their claims are outright lies (taijutsu ineffective? Not by my experience) I'll use this as a plug for my next article on how Taijutsu goes beyond combat. Anyway, As I said before, read many sources and make your own decision. Ninjutsu and Taijutsu work for me. It feels "right" "complete and whole". I'm happy.

[CrazyDragon]

Ok, umm....well, i guess my question is answered...im going to go back into hiding, before more practitioners come to have their
share of making me feel bad...lol!!

Thankyou for your time and
i bid you farewell


(Crazee packs up his bags, never to return)

LoL

[Tono-san]

That is why I love the phrase, "what's in a name?"

[graf12]

this link should help answer some questions.....http://www.oniko.de/archiv/uraomote/1996/96january.html#sele

on a side note, it should be noticed that he consulted the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten which is like a 1000 page book which is considered to be the definitive book on all japanese koryu

p.s.- you might have to scroll up to the top of the page to read the section on history

[Brad Ellin]

Chris is my instructor, back in Maryland. He's the one responsible for me being awarded Shdan. He and Jeff Mueller have done a lot of research into the history and if they say it is so, I would tend to believe them.

[Tudoggz]

why did i even bother reading that link :woo:
oviously ppl with too much spare time and nothing worth writting about except stuff to try and make ppl angry.

awesom quote to yoda!

peace mick

[Brad Ellin]

And Crazy, no need to pack up your bags and leave. Stick around and contribute. Just because you found some questionable info and wanted answers doesn't mean we don't like you :) I don't blame you for asking. There is a lot of good information and a lot of misinformation on the web and in books. Read and reasearch. I'm happy that you are willing to question instead of blindly accepting every thing you read.

[SilentNightfall]

Funny things is, some of those views are completely wrong. Ninja killed people to survive and rarely went out for assassination purposes. If they did, it was more than likely that you were dealing with a rogue Ninja out for some money. The Bujinkan teaches that Ninja fought to survive, and they were very much about enlightenment. Ninja never fought to kill unless necessary as mentioned before. Ninja never had to steal to survive as far as food and such go. They may have scoured battlefields in order to pick up the swords of dead samurai, but that is about the extent of such.

Now, as for the art, the primary open-handed techniques of Ninjutsu are labeled as Taijutsu. Ninjutsu, and the Bujinkan has never claimed otherwise, is very much a weapons art. The wonderful thing is that all the principles of weapons can be applied to open-handed techniques and vice versa. Just remember, Taijutsu means "body movement" or "Art of the Body." Since the Ninja believed in being one with nature and moving in natural ways, it is obvious why the main hand-to-hand combat system of Ninjutsu is called "Taijutsu."

You are correct that the Ninja did anything and everything to survive, but never more than what was needed. The Bujinkan has never claimed differently. Finally, please don't disappear from the boards because you had questions. I once had the same when I came across similar sites before I actually researched the art and began training in it. No one here is mad at you and it would be a shame if you stopped contributing and learning here. I hope you'll reconsider. For now, take care and have a wonderful night. Ja!

[Deshi]

If you can get your hands on it, Stephen K. Hayes' work Tulku is the best (and I think only honest) work of fiction dealing with Ninjas.

For some real research (judge for yourself) give a visit to http://www.kabuto.nu/ and look around. Can be a bit confusing to navigate but the info is all there about historicity.

[ckc123]

one of the great things of society today, is that everyone is entitled to thier own opinion. Even better, they can choose to discuss it (or publish it on the web) in any way they see fit. Unfortunatly not everyone has the ability to objectivly read the information.. the authors of the web site you mention, are obviously trying to cause a situation with inaccurate information, they even clearly state that they are doing so (read down the page) "We purposely over exagerated many points, and the main purpose of this page is not to *prove* anything. "

When someone makes a "Statement" like they do, I don't really care if they wish to identify themselves or not. but all they have done is made a statement, then have not left any information to contact them to have any sort of discussion on the matter (right or wrong)..

treat it like it is.. it's a statement, agree with it or not.. then go on to better things. (like enjoying the moment you are in.. )

D