hubud

[ap Oweyn]

Hey gang,

I'm looking for input on hubud. Variations on the basic drill, whether you think it translates into sparring, what adaptations and training you did to translate it, etc.

Do you think it's a viable tool? How and why?

Cheers.


Stuart B.

p.s. I'm thinking mostly empty hand. But it's all pretty interchangeable, so your choice.

[Andrew Green]

Viable tool - In a rather limited sense. More like a co-ordination drill.

Translate to sparring - Not really.

Looks pretty cool though ;)

[ap Oweyn]

Not a glowing recommendation, I have to say. :)

[YODA]

I've done a lot of hubud and other similar drills over the last 17 years or so in FMA and I've got a notebook full of some really neat stuff. Did it do anything for my fighting ability - I don't think so. I learned more that I can apply against non-compliance in 1 year working MMA clinchwork.

[ap Oweyn]

Then it's not just me who, after boxing and the like, doesn't see much utility to hubud. And yet still, I'm looking.

How about gunting? Maybe that'll open up the picture a bit.

[YODA]

Similar experience - similar results.

[Bobster]

From my school Manual:


Drills in martial arts focus on different things, depending on the desired outcome: Stamina, Cardio, Footwork, Coordination, Etc. Flow drills focus on exactly that: Flow. The idea of relaxation, natural
reflex & muscle memory ingrained from a standard series of strikes or motions. Flow drills allow you to work technique with a partner in a fluid, or "alive" environment. There is a large gap between static strike – block – counterstrike drills (ABCdarios,) and free-flow sparring. Several attributes are missing for the practitioner, making it difficult, if not impossible, to jump right into sparring & try to achieve the flow. This is particularly true if you have no concept of motion and interaction with a partner, and I don’t simply mean the static “One strike with 58 counters” type of drill with very little footwork or body English. Simple one-two & three step attack/defense drills are referred to as "Dead". This is due to the fact that the interaction between attacker and defender is static, & lacking any real play between the two. Usually, the attacker makes one or two strikes and freezes his position, allowing the defender to work around him while he remains stationary. Although this drill serves a purpose, it is used primarily for beginners. As you progress in skill, and gain better control over yourself & your weapon, you move into "alive" drills, working towards what is commonly referred to as "The fluid environment", or “Flow”.

Sumbrada takes the practitioner out of fundamental step-strike-block linear style patterns, and into more complex activity: It develops the basic attributes learned in the static drills, and applies them with interactive motion. In static-type drills, one person feeds a line and holds that position, while the receiver works his technique. In Sumbrada BOTH participants work technique simultaneously, developing the interactive attribute (exchanging varied technique with a partner while in MOTION). When a basic exchange, or “Flow” is achieved, more difficult & advanced elements are added to the basic game. Sumbrada, like Hubad, is excellent for this, because it allows you to add, subtract, or mix ‘n match any number of skills, ranges, footwork, etc. However, many people lack flow, or only have the most basic concept. Sumbrada, coupled with other flow drills such as Hubad, can be the stepping stone into flow.

A flow drill operates in a very basic structure, usually between 3-5 moves, with basic angles of attack.
The principle of this is simplicity, a fundamental pattern & tempo to build off. Once you have achieved
a comfortable level with the basics, you add variations to the basic idea, i.e. disarms, double weapons,
knife, empty hands, traps, & limb destructions. The depth of variation really depends on your own imagination and ability. Experiment with different footwork patterns & attack angles. Remember to start simple and build to the complex, keeping the idea of flow in mind. Remember, flow drills are the MAP, not the TERRITORY. Flow drills commonly act as a bridge between static or "Dead" drills, & sparring. It's easy
to get hypnotized into thinking you are a fighter simply because you work the punyo sumbrada really well.
Pretty to look at & fun to do, many people STOP at flow drills & never progress to sparring. This is a mistake. Therefore, free-form sparring should always be the next step after you familiarize yourself with sumbrada.


Although I focus on Sumbrada in the text, Hubad fits the bill as a flow drill as well, and most of what was said can be applied as suchto Hubad.

Train Hard!!

Bobbe Edmonds

[DeeTee]

Hi Dave,

Does Marc Denny still advocate hubud and box?

[ap Oweyn]

Bobbe,

That pretty well summarizes the standard reasoning behind flow drills, yeah. I'm just not completely convinced of the logic of that. The problem is, as your post mentioned, the jump from drills to sparring. My question is whether the jump is too big to cover with something like hubud. Whether the time and effort spent working hubud ever pays off in sparring.

It's a difficult question to answer because things like "attributes" are so hard to quantify. I can say "yes, the heightened sense of flow has helped me" or "no, it hasn't" without really knowing.

I wonder whether we don't come at martial arts training backward most of the time. We train the drills and then expect/hope/convince ourselves that they apply to sparring or fighting. I wonder whether it wouldn't make more sense to determine first how such a move might arise in sparring and then train the hubud (for example) to more exactly resemble that event.


Stuart B.

[YODA]

Hi Dave,

Does Marc Denny still advocate hubud and box?

Yes - he does - but I've yet to see him teach either.

[Matt_Bernius]

I think that programs often overemphasize Hubuds and look for more in there than there might be. At the same time I think they're a really effictive tool to teach beginners and midlevel students some of the basic concepts that Bobster outlined. They unforutnately also become a crutch that certain teachers fall back on, rather than transitioning their advancing students to more scenario based reality training.

In my case I can stay that I actually did once use a handpass from a high gate hubad in a sparring situation. I realize that makes me an exception. I also fully admit that this was not in an "intense" pressure testing scenario.

Stuart, ID's the real issue: What is the right method to transition from Drills to Sparring to Combat? Is there one? Or is the SBG philosophy the better one in this case?

- Matt

[DeeTee]

Yes - he does - but I've yet to see him teach either.

He spent some time teaching it on the last seminar of his I attended in Birmingham a few years ago.

Does anyone know the origins of Hubud? I heard that Inosanto pulled it from Bukti.

[ap Oweyn]

Matt,

What's the SBG Philosophy?

I know you're referring to the Straight Blast Gym. And I know, vaguely, their approach. But what does Thornton have to say about this?

[YODA]

He spent some time teaching it on the last seminar of his I attended in Birmingham a few years ago.

Does anyone know the origins of Hubud? I heard that Inosanto pulled it from Bukti.

It certainly exists in Doce Pares Eskrima as one of many sets of such drills done with the stick, knife and unarmed.

[YODA]

Matt,

What's the SBG Philosophy?

I know you're referring to the Straight Blast Gym. And I know, vaguely, their approach. But what does Thornton have to say about this?

It wouyld probably be worth you going to the website and reading for yourself - there's a LOT of stuff there...

www.straightblastgym.com (http://www.straightblastgym.com)

[DeeTee]

It certainly exists in Doce Pares Eskrima as one of many sets of such drills done with the stick, knife and unarmed.

Do you know it's origins within that group?

[ap Oweyn]

It wouyld probably be worth you going to the website and reading for yourself - there's a LOT of stuff there...

www.straightblastgym.com (http://www.straightblastgym.com)

Oh, I've been there before. But it never hurts to hear a thing restated (assuming Matt doesn't mind doing so).

[YODA]

Do you know it's origins within that group?
No I don't. It's one of a set of a dozen or so close range sensitivity drills that I was taught by GM Danny Guba.

It's very much tied in with the Corto system - but I haven't seen it in GM Cacoy's system in the same format.

[pesilat]

He spent some time teaching it on the last seminar of his I attended in Birmingham a few years ago.

Does anyone know the origins of Hubud? I heard that Inosanto pulled it from Bukti.

Hmm. I've never heard that. I've seen a drill from Stevan Plinck that has some conceptual similarities to hubud - but the details of it are completely different.

As Yoda mentioned, I know there's hubud in Doce Pares - I don't know where it came from there, either.

I know there's hubud in Bobby Taboada's Balintawak. I don't know where it came from - but it's possible that Bacon and the Canetes got it from Saavedra then Velez got it from Bacon and Taboada got it from Velez. But that's pure conjecture on my part.

However, the hubud in Bobby's Balintawak is somewhat different than the standard Inosanto hubuds that I've seen - but more like a variation than a different drill.

My primary instructor trained in Bukti Negara for 8 years and he's never mentioned a hubud like drill that he got from Bukti.

Mike

[ap Oweyn]

It's not directly related to hubud, but since the Canetes and Doce Pares have come up several times in this thread (and I feel somewhat at liberty to highjack my own thread), have a look at this interview with GM Cacoy:

http://www.apoweyn.net/martialarts/article01.htm

[YODA]

Oh, I've been there before. But it never hurts to hear a thing restated (assuming Matt doesn't mind doing so).
Ok - a small snippet from the Q&A section on the SBG website....

Question posted online:
Matt, I'm going to have to disagree with you. If I misunderstood what you have to say, please correct me, but it seems that you're saying that all these drills are worthless. I agree that drills are worthless without sparring, but I also believe that if you have weaknesses in your game, they can be worked on in isolation using drills. And then you have to be thrown back in against live opponents again. Boxing and wrestling and Judo which all focus on competing against live opponents have plenty of drills.
As far as the BJJ example goes, I've heard a story about Kimo going into Joe Moreira's studio, wiping the floor with the blue belts and purple belts there and being awarded a purple belt on the spot. If this story is true, would you consider Kimo a good technician because he could wrestle opponents with less athleticism and strength up to a purple belt level? Or would you say he was an awesome physical specimen and fighter who had a lot to learn about technique?
Answer, posted online:
No, I did not say drills where worthless. I said dead pattern drills (such as sombrada, hubud, numerado, & 99% of the drills most JKD/FMA people do) are worthless.
They have little to no practical application in a real stickfight. If you want to see drills that WILL have a positive affect on you're fighting skill then check out Burtons new tape. If the difference between alive drills and dead patterns is still a mystery to you...then you won’t understand what I am saying anyway.
In regards Kimo. He is a good technician. If he was just strength and power he wouldn’t be able to beat purple belts of his own weight. We regularly have 200lbs + powerlifters enter the gym who are easily beaten by 150lb blue belts. If that 200 + powerlifter beats a 200+ Brazilian Jits trained blue belt...then their is a problem with that blue belts "technique"! Remember, at the time he fought Royce he was much bigger and stronger then Royce was, still Royce won.
Let me make this as simple as possible. YES, you can be a tough fighter without knowing any technique. . .just due to attributes, size, strength, conditioning, aggression, etc. HOWEVER, you cannot be a good "technician" without also being a good fighter. Otherwise the term "technician becomes absolutely meaningless!
What most people describe as technical proficiency in the FMA can be described as this "looking good in a demonstration against a non-resisting cooperative stuntman in front of a crowd of people who dont know any better"
The fantasy distinction between technician & fighter was created by people who can’t fight, and or don't want to make their students do what it takes to fight IE: spar. You can fight without being a good technician...but you cant be a good technician without being able to fight! Otherwise what does being a good technician mean?? Think about it.
BUT, please...above all else. . try it!! Take you're "drills" into the realm of uncooperative opponents. . . and let that be you're guide. Not hearsay repeated verbatim from a "guru".

[ap Oweyn]

Yoda,

Guess I was looking in the wrong places. Thanks.

[Matt_Bernius]

It wouyld probably be worth you going to the website and reading for yourself - there's a LOT of stuff there...

www.straightblastgym.com (http://www.straightblastgym.com)
Thanks for posting that Yoda, I wasn't even going to try to claim any real understanding of the Straight Blast Gym thing.

And just to make sure no one is confused the "Matt" that Yoda quoted a few posts back is Matt Thorton the founder of Straight Blast Gym (SBG) [I only write this because I got confused for a sec due to reading too fast... was thinking, when the heck did I say that...?].

- Matt