"Aliveness"

[Judderman]

This is a term used by Matt Thornton from SBG amoung others.
(for a more in depth explination from Mr. Thornton's SBGi UK/Denmark tour DVD click here (http://www.straightblastgym.dk/video/sbg_aliveness.wmv). Please be aware that it contains language that may offend)

It decribes a training ideal using resistive opponents to increase the effectiveness of techniques learnt.

How do you make your training as "alive" as possible?

How does this differ for those who teach self protection to MAists to those who teach non-MAists?

Budo.

[Andrew Green]

Basically it means that instead of rehearsing a skit you are playing a game.

Teach a technique, teach the counter, play the game.

Both people are have a goal, and both are doing it.

Think of learning martial arts like learning to play a sport. Isolate areas of that sport and play them.

For example if you got a group of kids and you want to work passing and intercepting you could play monkey in the middle. It isolates areas of the main game and works them in a simpler, more focused game.

Now contrst that to, Ok, John will run 5 paces left, Tim will throw on the 3rd step, Bob will intercept by taking 3 paces right and jumping to catch it above his head. Now repeat 25 times, get it right each time.

Also spar, and then spar some more.

[mikelw]

This is a term used by Matt Thornton from SBG amoung others.
(for a more in depth explination from Mr. Thornton's SBGi UK/Denmark tour DVD click here (http://www.straightblastgym.dk/video/sbg_aliveness.wmv). Please be aware that it contains language that may offend)

It decribes a training ideal using resistive opponents to increase the effectiveness of techniques learnt.

How do you make your training as "alive" as possible?

How does this differ for those who teach self protection to MAists to those who teach non-MAists?

Budo.

Juddy do we need to start this aliveness bit on MAP too? I thought we'd had enough of jkogas and his bit on fightingarts lol.

But on a serious note, just make sure what you're doing isn't rehearsed. As in, kata is not good, nor is 1 step sparring. Make sure the drills you do have a certain amount of resistance in them.

[kickcatcher]

Aliveness has a (TM) label doesn't it? :rolleyes:

Anyway, it makes obvious sense and is a key aspect to the wider notion of pressure testing IMO. But then you'd expect me to think that. :Angel:

Slight difference with last Mikelw:
I'm not against 1-step, I think that done at a pace, it can be good basic training -but yes, it does need reinforcing and testing in ALIVE training and I'd guess 20% 1-step 80%pressure testing (sliding scale).

[nekogami13]

How do you make your training as "alive" as possible?

Budo.


Aahhh, I thought a sensed a disturbance. Don't make me get Jkogas on here to sort you out. ;)

[Judderman]

ROFLMAO!!!!

Bring him!!!

:D

[Judderman]

Neko & Mike. Fear not. (not much anyway :))

This was a serious question. If you teach a self defence class then how do you get around this point? Many MAists understand the term and what it implies. Some don't. So how do you get round this sort of training with those who have just walked in off the street with little or no MA knowledge or background?

Budo.

[ICT]

This was a serious question. If you teach a self defence class then how do you get around this point? Many MAists understand the term and what it implies. Some don't. So how do you get round this sort of training with those who have just walked in off the street with little or no MA knowledge or background?

Budo.

Budo,

This answer is going to offend a lot of people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now with that said let me just say that if your training saves your life just 1 time, the very first time you use it and you never have to use it again then great you have accomplished the goal of learning to protect yourself and I don't want to get into a Martial arts philosophy debate with all the Qai Chang Kanes of the world.

Now I also understand the need for sport schools and this post is not for them unless they are claiming to teach self-protection instead of telling the truth of the fact that this is a sport school & we teach sport martial arts.

I would first like to say that I don't believe most Martial Arts teachers do understand this concept of reality training and live in a fantasy world. They might say they do and they might claim to teach this aspect but they don't!

How many Martial Arts/Combat Fighting instructors have truly been in just (1) real life threatening encounter let alone a dozen or so needed to evaluate their skills, timing, responses, courage, awareness, and the many other aspects of self-protection. I love it when some instructor relies on the ONE time he punched out a drunk in a bar as his culmination of martial arts life & death skills and thinks he can train his students to fight.

Sparring your friend in the school with pads and rules and a referee for the match, wearing gi’s and going barefoot is NO WAY to train for a realistic life & death situation.

So then how can we be all that we can be? We can't unless we throw caution to the wind and go at it without pads, rules or referees! What happens then; we get hurt, can't go to work, can't pay our bills and end up homeless with no money to continue our training!

You have to remember that hundreds & thousands of years ago there was a "Warrior Class" people of the community who did nothing but train to fight, that was their job. If they got hurt they had the automatic 3 weeks of sick leave to recuperate and continue training.

So we have to train as realistically as our modern times allow, our students can take and our legal system will stand. But instructors need to understand these points and work with them and not try to avoid them causing a false sense of security.

A few things to do for realistic training but without killing each other:

1) If your going to teach knife defenses don't use a rubber knife and come out slow with a straight stab to the stomach, instead use a dull metal knife and come out yelling & screaming with fast slashes and stabs.

2) If sparring don't limit the students! Take up the mats, let them do sweeps, throws, stomping on the toes, hitting when their opponents back is turned, yelling, and whatever else you normally don't allow because you think it's un-sportsman like or to aggressive!

3) Take off the Gi’s & put on the shoes!

4) Have the students spar with as little protective equipment as possible and have them spar everyone regardless of size, strength, gender, age, speed, rank and do anything else that you normally don't do!

5) Of course the list goes on and on without getting into realistic techniques versus unrealistic techniques, which would be a book in and of it's self!

*******************SOMETHING TO SERIOUSLY PONDER****************************

How come YOU wouldn’t go to a lawyer who only tried (1) case, a doctor who only did (1) operation or a pilot who only flew (1) solo flight but you will put your LIFE on the line and study with an instructor who has no real knowledge of Self-Protection or real life & death experience!

How come YOU as an instructor would consider teaching someone to protect themselves and take their money to train them to protect themselves when you yourself have never been in a real life & death self-protection situation or even trained in art that at least teaches concepts & techniques for this very purpose!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[hkphooey]

How come YOU as an instructor would consider teaching someone to protect themselves and take their money to train them to protect themselves when you yourself have never been in a real life & death self-protection situation or even trained in art that at least teaches concepts & techniques for this very purpose!
Because with a study and practice of tried and true fighting techniques one can help another to understand the most effective ways to defend themself. The only true way to get real life experience is go out on the street and get someone to fight you. Well, that is illegal and ignorant. And that really wouldn't tell you how you'd do in a 'self defense' situation either, since you are preparing for the fight. So going by your statement you'd have to be randomly attacked by surprise multiple times, and that just isn't realistic.

What are you a teacher of? I do believe you said you were a police officer. Do you teach firearms, knife fighting/defense, improvised weapons? I mean, unless you have actually shot 3 or 4 people kicking down your door you really don't know how to best show someone how to use a weapon for home defense, much less personal security.

Are the best Rape Prevention instructors persons who have been raped?

There is a big difference in teaching TMA's style of self defense and teaching more reality based, and it doesn't have to do with how many times your instructor has fought off a ballistic knife wielding murderer.

Having the unfortunate experience in a real life self defense situation can give you a better look and how the body reacts, how you respond and you can convey to others the physical and phycological aspects of it, but it doesn't automatically make you a good instructor and it really isn't the best way to judge one either.

[hkphooey]

I'm just bumping this back to the top.

[hedgehogey]

Now I also understand the need for sport schools and this post is not for them unless they are claiming to teach self-protection instead of telling the truth of the fact that this is a sport school & we teach sport martial arts.

This dude wouldn't last a minute with a full contact athlete.

[Reiki]

The key thing with all SD training is to constantly practice it with as much realism as possible.

This means that every once in a while u should go all out and fight dirty to the point of causing more pain than normal with your partners.

If you want to train hard and full out then why not a training dummy for extra ooommph?

Of all the ppl here I believe that probably Judderman is the only one who has to work constanly in an atmosphere where he is likely to get hit/stabbed or ??? every day.

[Judderman]

Lets face it. Unless you are fighting day in day out, your training will be a sorry second best. The attackers you face on the street do not announce themselves (at least to the majority), they do everything possible to ensure that they win. If there is a doubt, chances are they dont do it.

I don't care how good you say you are, think you are or prove you are, without proper insight, the average criminal will have you out of the fight before you have realised you're in one.

From my limited knowledge of SD training, many are encouraged by resisting partners and the ability to hit as hard as they can against a suitably padded opponent. This usually overcomes the apprehension of using force in a situation that warrants it. The more committed can go that little bit further and throw away more rules and protection, if you are willing to take that risk.

I have found this myself. Some techniques I use do require a lot more strength and timing against a fully resistant partner, to one who is half hearted.

Budo.

[Chase]

Never stop attacking, & use cavity strikes, like the nuts, the knees, the ears, the eyes,etc. to make it as short as possible.

[hedgehogey]

Never stop attacking, & use cavity strikes, like the nuts, the knees, the ears, the eyes,etc. to make it as short as possible.

Did you even read this thread? Do you know what aliveness is?

DO YOU REALIZE THAT CRAP DOESN'T WORK?

[Rice Krispies]

"1) If your going to teach knife defenses don't use a rubber knife and come out slow with a straight stab to the stomach, instead use a dull metal knife and come out yelling & screaming with fast slashes and stabs.

2) If sparring don't limit the students! Take up the mats, let them do sweeps, throws, stomping on the toes, hitting when their opponents back is turned, yelling, and whatever else you normally don't allow because you think it's un-sportsman like or to aggressive!

3) Take off the Gi’s & put on the shoes!

4) Have the students spar with as little protective equipment as possible and have them spar everyone regardless of size, strength, gender, age, speed, rank and do anything else that you normally don't do!

5) Of course the list goes on and on without getting into realistic techniques versus unrealistic techniques, which would be a book in and of it's self!"

How are you supposed to survive this? If you give me all this to work with, given the lack of skill often seen by martial ats students, there are gonna be a lot of severe beatdowns given.

[Chase]

Yes I did,yes I do. Do you want to make every woman a gladiator?

[hedgehogey]

Do you want to make every woman a gladiator?

No, only the ones that want self defense.

[Judderman]

How are you supposed to survive this? If you give me all this to work with, given the lack of skill often seen by martial ats students, there are gonna be a lot of severe beatdowns given.

There should always be a ref, or tap out signals/words, to ensure that you can stop at any time. This ensures that as few injuries as possible occur.

Just remember, if you are feeling squimish about this sort of training, what are you going to do when there isn't a ref or you can't tap out?

Budo.

[JKogas]

Alas, I am here.



-John

[hkphooey]

DO YOU REALIZE THAT CRAP DOESN'T WORK?
What doesn't work, attacking or hitting the nuts, eyes, ears or what ever?

Don't lose yourself in thinking the aliveness is just beating the hell out of each other. Aliveness is training practical in motion. It applies to working on a heavy bag, focus mitts, light sparring, and full contact.

[Judderman]

Alas, I am here.



-John

Ahh the invocation has worked!!!! (finally :D )

Welcome ~ I'm looking forward to your input.

[Reiki]

Alas, I am here.



-John

oh CR@P!

we thought we'd left u behind..... :)

[JKogas]

Well, I'm not going to be here arguing with folks on this forum. That approach got me nowhere really. My tactics now are just to ask questions in an effort to get people to think for themselves. As I think that the majority of us are really a lot closer in our opinions than we might at first believe, most folks with half a brain, can generally arrive at rational conclusions if guided to seek only the truth.

Or something like that.



-John

[JKogas]

1) If your going to teach knife defenses don't use a rubber knife and come out slow with a straight stab to the stomach, instead use a dull metal knife and come out yelling & screaming with fast slashes and stabs.


I like THIS one! Of course, using progressive resistance would be something I would add to this. I mean, you have to start out slowly and build up skill, otherwise no one will ever develop any confidence. But yeah, fast slashes and stabs in a frenetic, random pattern are needed.


2) If sparring don't limit the students! Take up the mats, let them do sweeps, throws, stomping on the toes, hitting when their opponents back is turned, yelling, and whatever else you normally don't allow because you think it's un-sportsman like or to aggressive!


Well I agree with the sentiments, but if you take up the mats you do nothing but increase the chances of injury. Injuries always mean missed training time. Every ONE of us knows that if you can't train, you can't get better. Improvement is what we want, right? At some point you have to say, "ok, what is sensible training and what isn't?"


3) Take off the Gi’s & put on the shoes!


I think it's ok to train in a gi, so long as you train outside of one regularly as well. Most of MY time is spent "no-gi" and I always wear shoes. I do this for the simple reason is that it makes footlocks a LOT easier to get, so I want to be as prepared as possible for them.



4) Have the students spar with as little protective equipment as possible and have them spar everyone regardless of size, strength, gender, age, speed, rank and do anything else that you normally don't do!


I think that's fair enough, depending on the level of skill of the individuals in question. This wouldn't be appropriate for beginners from the standpoint of safety (missed training due to injury becoming a factor again).


5) Of course the list goes on and on without getting into realistic techniques versus unrealistic techniques, which would be a book in and of it's self!


And, it's completely dependent on circumstances as well.


-John

[Matt_Bernius]

John,

Welcome to MAP. I'm guessing from you're post that you're an Aliveness advocate. Any chance you can give us a quick background on yourself. So far I'm digging both the reaction to your arrival and the contents of your post!

- Matt

[JKogas]

Hi Matt!

My background is a eclectic somewhat. I've trained (like most) traditional arts at an early age, before studying JKD with my brother-in-law who was a student of Larry Hartsell back in the day. I guess you could say that I'm a JKD man.

I trained with a variety of people coming up and to make a long story shorter, I ended up with the Straight Blast Gym crew. I continue to work with them to this day and am preparing for a seminar with Matt Thornton at the end of July in Hurricane WV. (Oughtta be fun folks, you all should consider coming if possible).

Yes, you could say that I am an aliveness guy, but that just (to me) means, FUN and FUNctionality. So many people have apparently gotten the idea (inaccurately) that aliveness just means sport training and sparring all the time. And it isn't. Aliveness is a quality that your training takes on. That's it really. It's nothing mystical or esoteric. It's really just common sense.


Thanks Matt. I look forward to future correspondence.


-John

[Matt_Bernius]

Hey John,

Thanks for the background. I had a feeling you might be a SBG associate/person/something. This fall I'm going to have the chance to spend some time at the Chicago/Illinois Gym run by Coach Sharp (sp?). I've been getting very interested in SBG and I'm look forward to the chance to learn more about it's training methodologies.

- matt

[Judderman]

I like that. Aliveness puts the fun back into funtionality!! :D

[JKogas]

Hey John,

Thanks for the background. I had a feeling you might be a SBG associate/person/something. This fall I'm going to have the chance to spend some time at the Chicago/Illinois Gym run by Coach Sharp (sp?). I've been getting very interested in SBG and I'm look forward to the chance to learn more about it's training methodologies.

- matt


Matt,

Man, if you train with Sharp.........oh my GOD will you develop a good game! Your skills are going to skyrocket! What a lucky man you will be if you can train with him! Good luck with all of that. Let me know how that all goes if you do in fact go there.

Yes.....the FUN is back in the FUNctionality FUNhouse!

I'm going to write a little more about the SBG method later on after I return from the gym. What a truly awesome way of learning and training!


-John

[Reiki]

Well, I'm not going to be here arguing with folks on this forum. That approach got me nowhere really. My tactics now are just to ask questions in an effort to get people to think for themselves. As I think that the majority of us are really a lot closer in our opinions than we might at first believe, most folks with half a brain, can generally arrive at rational conclusions if guided to seek only the truth.

Or something like that.



-John

gidday John

it is nice to see u here actually. :)

Apart from the constant arguing on the other forum I always thought u had some good ideas....

[JKogas]

gidday John

it is nice to see u here actually. :)

Apart from the constant arguing on the other forum I always thought u had some good ideas....



Thanks man, I appreciate it. Just know that the arguing isn't really what I ever wanted. I just enjoy a good debate, know I can debate well, and never back down when I feel I'm right. One major problem about debating with people is, they don't realize that the objective is NOT to "win" the argument, so much as it is to uncover the truth within the given situation.

Ah well, thanks again.


-John

[Reiki]

Thanks man, I appreciate it. Just know that the arguing isn't really what I ever wanted. I just enjoy a good debate, know I can debate well, and never back down when I feel I'm right. One major problem about debating with people is, they don't realize that the objective is NOT to "win" the argument, so much as it is to uncover the truth within the given situation.

Ah well, thanks again.


-John

:) - you do know I'm not a bloke don't you John?

[Matt_Bernius]

Matt,

Man, if you train with Sharp.........oh my GOD will you develop a good game! Your skills are going to skyrocket! What a lucky man you will be if you can train with him! Good luck with all of that. Let me know how that all goes if you do in fact go there.

-John

John,

I'm going to Chicago to study (both academically and martially). How can I pass up on an opporunity like that. Especially as a pragmatic Martial Artist (my heart will always lie with the Chinese & Filipino Martial Arts, but I'm interested in learning first and foremost).

Your positive words on Caoch Sharp only make me more excited about this! I will be sharing my experiences with the boards as things develop.

My hope is to get out to Coach Sharp's gym once a week. IMA and SBG ... what a combination.

- Matt

[JKogas]

John,

I'm going to Chicago to study (both academically and martially). How can I pass up on an opporunity like that. Especially as a pragmatic Martial Artist (my heart will always lie with the Chinese & Filipino Martial Arts, but I'm interested in learning first and foremost).

Your positive words on Caoch Sharp only make me more excited about this! I will be sharing my experiences with the boards as things develop.

My hope is to get out to Coach Sharp's gym once a week. IMA and SBG ... what a combination.

- Matt


You'll have the time of your life. Sharp is the man, as all SBG head coaches are. He's a either a former or current police officer who's got some interesting stories to tell. You couldn't pick a better group. Of course, I AM a little biased....


Reiki: Yep, I knew that but either forgot or, was just a figure of speech.


Thanks all. Let's keep this thread TTT


-John

[keinhaar]

Matt,

Where's the SBG Chicago? I thought it was Elgin.

[Matt_Bernius]

It is in Elgin. (http://www.straightblastgymillinois.com/)

I'm just doing that "relational thing." Like I haven't spent much time in Illinois yet so everything is near Chicago. Same thing people do with New York State and NYC. I live in Rochester right now, which everyone assumes is a suburb of NYC (not seven hours away).

Elgin's is about an hour away from Chicago right? Or am I way off?

- Matt

[keinhaar]

Ah, the relational thing. The suburbs I can understand, but Elgin is a crusty old city in it's own right.

Yeah, an hour sounds about right.

[Furikuchan]

How do you keep defenses and applications real? Simple...
"Hit me."
I have to say that a lot to the guys I train with. For some reason, they're nervous about actually hitting someone. Thus, training with actual contact, however light, serves two purposes. A: The uke gets used to following through with his punches. B: If tori ever has to use the defense in real life, he won't get suprised by a punch thrown at real power and speed.
And this applies to everything. If it's a grab, grab their arm and start yanking them somewhere! Grab around the waist and pick them up. If you actually do the technique that is supposed to be defended against, your partner stands a better chance of actually using this technique in a real situation.

[JKogas]

Exactly! It's just common sense really, but so few have really gotten it.


-John

[Judderman]

Ok. Now you're here John, how do you introduce this training method to those who have a) no knowledge of it b) have no knowlege of fighting/MA?

[JKogas]

Hi Judderman!

Aliveness is a quality that one's training has. It's really nothing that complicated or, esoteric really -- it truthfully is simple common sense.

The problem is, so many martial artists continue to train in manners which would (by the aliveness definition) be considered, "dead". There's no timing, no footwork or realistic movement many times during the training, the opponents don't resist, etc. In short, there's no timing, motion or energy (resistance from your partners) when practicing techniques. And those three qualities define what aliveness is.

With that having been said, aliveness isn't something that can be done when you train alone. It's not there when you're hitting the bags, running, lifting weights, etc.. But those activities don't teach you how to fight. They certainly help you to fight better, but they don't teach you to. Aliveness is something that only occurs when you have a partner and, those three qualities (again, real timing, motion and energy) are together at the same time. Having one of two of those qualities without the third, is NOT alive training.

Here's a clip of a video from the SBG head honcho, which further illustrates what aliveness is:


http://www.jkd-kbh.dk/sbg2.wmv


If you have any questions, send 'em my way!


Thanks again!


-John

[Judderman]

Some of the training is using motion and pads, what about training with resistive partners, how do you ease people into it who either have no MA training or are relative beginners?

Some beginners might be up for it, but theres always the increased risk of injury from someone who doesn't really know what they are doing. For instance it takes a reasonable amount of knowledge to apply an arm bar quickly and effectively without doing some serious damage to your partner.

Never having been to a boxing/wrestling gym I don't how they decide, so how do you decide at your gym?

This kind of brings me around to self defence. It is important to train in this way, but unfortunately many "classes/courses" are for a short duration. Is it possible to train in this way with a complete novice for a short period of time, or is it less practical as it only serves to raise confidence and not much else?

[JKogas]

Some of the training is using motion and pads, what about training with resistive partners, how do you ease people into it who either have no MA training or are relative beginners?

The concept we follow is called Progressive Resistance. That means that you'll be going either very slow, with very little power, or both until a level of skill is developed beyond which that the present level of resistance is is no longer challenging. You do not proceed to increase the levels until the performance ability is there. That's how you can train alive with rank beginners and no one gets hurt. Aliveness does NOT equal brutality.

Example of aliveness with progressive resistance when teaching a beginner to defend a jab (could be a 20 year old, or a 50 year old):

(Bearing in mind, the three modes of aliveness -- timing/motion/energy)

1. Timing: I'll not stand there like a robot. When I throw the jab (after a few tries to allow the student to develop a feel for the mechanics), I'm going to move slowly, yet it won't be in a predictable fashion. I'll throw him off if I can with a head and shoulder fake, etc. The last thing that I want my students to do is to anticipate the incoming punch. Bad guys won't let you see it coming. One's training should replicate the conditions in which you'll be using the technique. Training in this manner does just that.

The key is, I'm moving slowly enough so that the student will not be harmed if he messes up the technique. Thus he develops real confidence and ability to execute the technique, while never being in any harm (again because I'm moving slow and easy).

2. Motion: I'm not going to be standing still and flat-footed either. I'm going to be moving around, just like a real opponent will when he's trying to hit you. Standing flat-footed and training to defend punches isn't realistic and, goes NOWHERE toward developing condition-reflective responses (ie, conditions just like a real fight occurs in) .

Again, this doesn't mean that I have to move fast or hit with power. You move faster and throw with a little more power ONLY when the students skills are ready for that sort of challenge, never before. This is progressive resistance.

3. Energy: This means that when I throw the jab, that I'm actually aiming for his face -- not off to the side or, stopping just in front -- it means that if he messes up the technique, my glove touches his nose. However, progressive resistance again is in play, so even if he DOES miss, he's not hurt.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people I see who miss this point. When I see them training, their partners punches end a couple of inches in front of their faces. Then when you see them spar, they get hit repeatedly because their skill and ability just isn't there. You have to train for real, against real punches (kicks, takedowns, armbars, etc.) even if they ARE moving at 1/4 speed. Otherwise you just don't develop real skill.

Having all three of the above in play during training, is aliveness. If you've ever heard the expression. "you play like you practice"; then aliveness just means that you're practicing like you plan to play. That's a good way of looking at it I believe.

It should be noted that the majority of our time is spent drilling. Sparring is definitely alive for the most part, but drilling oftentimes isn't. It should be in my opinion. Without a progressive level of resistance, one's ability is never challenged and the student doesn't grow as a result.




Some beginners might be up for it, but theres always the increased risk of injury from someone who doesn't really know what they are doing. For instance it takes a reasonable amount of knowledge to apply an arm bar quickly and effectively without doing some serious damage to your partner.



That again is why progressive resistance is so important. I want to stress again that aliveness doesn't equal brutality. Aliveness doesn't always mean sparring, like I've mentioned elsewhere. It's only a quality that ones training adheres to.

When training the armbar for example, you practice the technique slowly. Both partners develop a feel -- both for the execution of the technique and, how the technique itself feels when applied. They learn when to "tap-out" and do so before the pain is too much.

When we train, we can get into positions for the submission quickly, but when we execute a submission hold/joint lock/choke, etc., we move slowly and with caution so as NOT to injure our partner. This is just responsible training, something that any coach worth his salt would demand of his students.




Never having been to a boxing/wrestling gym I don't how they decide, so how do you decide at your gym?

I'm sorry....how do you decide what? Are you meaning, deciding when a student is ready to spar? This is something that a good coach will have to decide. Though again, we don't spar all out and with full power unless the student has been training for some time and has the skills to show for this. This is something that would have to be obtained through progressive resistance. We can spar at 25% (speed and power) all day long and no one will get hurt. We can go even less if need be...until the confidence is there -- never before!



This kind of brings me around to self defence. It is important to train in this way, but unfortunately many "classes/courses" are for a short duration. Is it possible to train in this way with a complete novice for a short period of time, or is it less practical as it only serves to raise confidence and not much else?

I think if you truly have a grasp of what aliveness is, you'll realize that it's really the ONLY way to train to develop any skill at all! To do any less is to create even GREATER false confidence in my opinion.

Training alive (with progressive resistance) actually assists in destroying false confidence because you'll see for yourself if you can perform or NOT. If you can, you still have a healthy respect for combat. If you CAN'T perform, you'll know it immediately. There won't be any question.

Again, this isn't about being tough or is it about beat downs. Aliveness isn't about sparring, although the training can certainly take on that appearance. This is because the partners are moving around, using real timing and energy.

One last thing about our training; 90% of the time, we're doing drills. This further cuts down on the rate of injury. Only 10% of the time are we sparring.

If you have any further questions, please pass them on! It's great to have this dialog. Hopefully, more clarity will be given to the subject of aliveness. That's what it needs. Some many have the wrong idea about what it really means.


Take care!


-John

[Matt_Bernius]

John.

Couple questions. On timing you note that with a beginner you don't want to be predictable. Here's my question: Doesn't there need to be some inital predictability and repitition to begin to develop concepts before moving into more of an experiemental environment. I realize that you're moving slowly and under control (with realistic intent), but it seems like immediately starting with the intent of being unpredictable (including feints) wouldn't provide a stong enough platform.

Second thing. I'm going to lquote myself from another post on how we spar in our school. Can you rate this for aliveness (and how do our goals stack up against the SBG model)?

Here's my view.
"Fight how you train, Train how you fight"

If you're sparring to learn how to fight, not point spar, at beginning levels everything should be done without gear, continuous "full contact" at quarter speed, and with resistance. Both parties need to respect each other's hits, follow through on techniques, and stick to the rules. This requires a LOT of disipline, but can be extremely beneficial.

1. Newbies don't have to worry about being hurt, blasted or otherwise overpowered by an advanced opponent. Therefore they are more likely to begin to experiment.

2. This allows everyone practicing time to be aware of what's happening around them and a little more time to anaylize whats going on.

3. By eliminating speed from the equasion, it becomes a game of controlling distance and timing. There's always going to be someone faster than you. But speed can be negated by distance and timing.

4. By controlling speed you can access just about every move in one's toolbox without having to worry about either injuring yourself or your opponent. It leads to everyone developing a sense of trust in each other and getting the chance to pull off "movie moments" (for lack of a better word).

Once you've explored that enough then you can begin to dial up the speed, keeping everything else the same.

Thanks!

- Matt

[Judderman]

John, thanks for the excellent clarification.

In which case how do you rate training with a heavily padded "fall guy"? The advantages must be that a student can go at full without causing much injury. The downside is the greater the padding the less realistic the movements of the attacker.

I am beginning to wonder, based on your explinations above, if short duration SD/SP classes are really any good. If the level of resistance is based on skill level, which in turn is dicated by level of drills, then surely it must take the average person a few months to get to fully resistive combat, in order to indicate whether thier skills will be of any use to them in life?

[JKogas]

John.

Couple questions. On timing you note that with a beginner you don't want to be predictable. Here's my question: Doesn't there need to be some inital predictability and repitition to begin to develop concepts before moving into more of an experiemental environment.

Sure, but it depends on the individuals. Most able-bodied people can develop the mechanics fairly quickly, as most of the techniques that we use are very simple. Also, considering that we're going to be moving very slowly in the initial stages, it really doesn't MATTER if it's unpredictable -- mainly because theres no chance of injury. But yes, you're still going to be predictable in the beginning in order for the students to develop the proper mechanics, and so it's not as alive as it will become. But like I said, with simple techniques (which are really the ones that truly work anyway), it shouldn't take all that long until you can become more alive in the training.




I realize that you're moving slowly and under control (with realistic intent), but it seems like immediately starting with the intent of being unpredictable (including feints) wouldn't provide a stong enough platform.


Well, you're using progressive resistance so, there'll be less unpredictability in the beginning stages. But again, with really simple technique, it doesn't take long before you can implement it -- even within the very first session! I've done it myself with beginners. Each person will be different of course.



Second thing. I'm going to lquote myself from another post on how we spar in our school. Can you rate this for aliveness (and how do our goals stack up against the SBG model)?


I'll do my best.



If you're sparring to learn how to fight, not point spar, at beginning levels everything should be done without gear, continuous "full contact" at quarter speed, and with resistance. Both parties need to respect each other's hits, follow through on techniques, and stick to the rules. This requires a LOT of disipline, but can be extremely beneficial.

1. Newbies don't have to worry about being hurt, blasted or otherwise overpowered by an advanced opponent. Therefore they are more likely to begin to experiment.

2. This allows everyone practicing time to be aware of what's happening around them and a little more time to anaylize whats going on.

3. By eliminating speed from the equasion, it becomes a game of controlling distance and timing. There's always going to be someone faster than you. But speed can be negated by distance and timing.

4. By controlling speed you can access just about every move in one's toolbox without having to worry about either injuring yourself or your opponent. It leads to everyone developing a sense of trust in each other and getting the chance to pull off "movie moments" (for lack of a better word).

Once you've explored that enough then you can begin to dial up the speed, keeping everything else the same.




That sounds like progressive resistance and if it's not a set pattern and there's footwork/movement, etc., then it sounds alive as well. Of course actually SEEING the training would help a lot, but it does sound alive to me. It seems very similar to how we train at my gym.

Good job!



-John

[JKogas]

John, thanks for the excellent clarification.

In which case how do you rate training with a heavily padded "fall guy"? The advantages must be that a student can go at full without causing much injury. The downside is the greater the padding the less realistic the movements of the attacker.

That downside that you mentioned is what I was going to mention. That's a pretty steep, downside. To me it just sounds like the padded guy is a human heavy bag. Timing and other necessary attributes wouldn't be developed when it's a one sided affair like that. It's sort of like fighting a one-legged man at an ass kicking contest --- you end up looking real good and going home feeling great......until you meet up with a guy that fights back. Then you don't feel so good all of a sudden.



I am beginning to wonder, based on your explinations above, if short duration SD/SP classes are really any good. If the level of resistance is based on skill level, which in turn is dicated by level of drills, then surely it must take the average person a few months to get to fully resistive combat, in order to indicate whether thier skills will be of any use to them in life?


I'd agree with that. Short term classes the way that MOST are taught aren't that great, imho. It my experience, it takes 6 months to a year before people really start to develop a legitimate "game". Of course some people will do so earlier and some will take longer.

Regardless, everything should be kept (technically) very simple and trained alive as soon as possible. People need to feel the harsh reality of the real world instead of being made to feel "dangerous" or even safe from the results of a short course. If anything, I'd take a short course and show people the realities of fighting and use that time to dispell myths, etc.

There are two types of training / modes of thinking, that I see existing in the martial arts world: 1) Best-case scenario training and 2) Worst-case scenario training. To get into that would take a whole separate thread.......hmmm...not a bad idea eh?


-John

[Matt_Bernius]

In which case how do you rate training with a heavily padded "fall guy"? The advantages must be that a student can go at full without causing much injury. The downside is the greater the padding the less realistic the movements of the attacker.

In answer to this, in recent years there's been the development of more "Tactical" padding. Things like Tony Blauer's high gear impact reduction suit allow for more realistic training with higher levels of resistance.

CMM the Hocky manufacturer has a lot of great material and techology that really needs to considered as an alternative to the heavy foam padding of those "fall guy" suits. This stuff is far less restrictive and allows for a lot more natural movement (since that's required by the athletes). Of course the downside is the heavy expense of these products.

- Matt

[JKogas]

I can't help but think that in the majority of padded armor training, the guys wearing the suits aren't allowed to fight back as hard as the people who AREN'T wearing the protection. This to me is the major problem. I won't go on to say that those have no use, but I'd rather my students just train athletically, against each other where BOTH are wearing some suitable protection. If you're going light contact (which is most of the time) you can even get away with wearing NO protection other than gloves/mouthpiece/groin cup.


-John

[Matt_Bernius]

Actually the high gear suit is definitely geared for high impact sparring.

I also agree that with light contact there's no need to have padding in order to safely execute techniques.

- Matt