Is Boxing a Martial Art? [Archive]

juramentado

05-Feb-2004, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by Dark Blade
I think it's just a shallow MA.
So it's just a MA, with fewer techniques...and the pros are a lot stupider.

Frankly, I don't want to consider it a MA, because it's just punching and holding your hands in front of your face, but by strict definition, it is...sadly.

Sorry if I offended anyone, it's just my opinion.

I did some boxing years ago and I can tell you, it's far more than that.

Sure, it's only punching but don't judge something by how many techniques it has. Boxing has fewer techniques that other MAs but using them in combinations, by someone who really knows how to box, will knock just about anyone into next week :)

IMHO, the true "art" of boxing had little to do with punching. It's in the bobbing and weaving, in slipping the punches and countering. Anyone can learn to punch but it takes skill to be able to slip a punch and counter with a punch or punches of your own. The pros practice it until it's second nature.

Yes, it's a MA, and a very effective one at that..:D

johndoch

05-Feb-2004, 09:15 AM

Quote Darkblade -

"I think it's just a shallow MA.
So it's just a MA, with fewer techniques...and the pros are a lot stupider.

Frankly, I don't want to consider it a MA, because it's just punching and holding your hands in front of your face, but by strict definition, it is...sadly.

Sorry if I offended anyone, it's just my opinion."

That one of the most ignorant posts I've heard in a while. What do you mean the pro's are stupid:(

I would like to see anyone go up against any boxer and just "punching and holding your hands in front of your face" and come away with your heads on your shoulders.

Louie

05-Feb-2004, 09:26 AM

The earliest boxers were certainly 'martial artists'....

On the 6th of June 1727, James Figg fought the Gravesend pipe-maker, Ned Sutton. The first round was with swords and a cut to Sutton’s shoulder resulted in Figg winning that round. The second round was fist-fighting which included throws and grappling, Figg won this round by submission. The third round was with cudgels during which Figg shattered Sutton’s knee to win the match.

Louie

SoKKlab

05-Feb-2004, 11:41 AM

Well Said Louie,
Whilst modern 'Western' Boxing has developed into a 'Front Knuckles of the Fist' Striking Art only, it's origins were firmly in a Complete system of combat.

And even though it 'only uses punches', those punches are devastating weapons and Boxers' Defensive work is the best there is.

Try sparring a few rounds with a Decent Boxer and see if you can even lay a Glove on them or a Foot for that matter. Chances are it'll be 'Good night Irene' for you before you know it.

Is Boxing a Martial Art? As KickCatcher said, it's alot more 'Martial' than most 'Martial Arts'.

Boxing is a Great skill and one I continue to pursue.

Epsilon

05-Feb-2004, 12:03 PM

Yup! 'nuff said!

Yukimushu

05-Feb-2004, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by Andrew Green
As much as many things commonly called "Martial Arts".

If it was asian no one would even question it ;)

lol very good point :) hehe

Nordic_Blood

05-Feb-2004, 12:45 PM

Ancient Olympics
Braughton's Rules (Aug. 16, 1743)
The Pelican Club (England 1814)
The Fair Play Club (England 1828)
London Prize Ring Rules, as revised by the British Pugilistic Association (1838)
Marquis of Queensberry Rules Governing Contests for Endurance (1865)
Amateur Athletic Association (1880, England)
Olympic Club of New Orleans (1883)
American Fair-Play Rules to Govern Glove Contests (1888, proposed)
Amateur Atheletic Union (AAU) Local, State, National Championships (1888, U.S.)
New Orleans City Ord. permits glove fights sponsored by Atheletic Clubs (1890)
National Sporting Club formed (1891, London)
The Horton Law (NY 1896-1900)
Colorado (1899) -- state statute legalizes boxing
French Federation of Boxing Clubs (1903)
Modern Olympic Games add boxing (1904)
National Sporting Club establishes weight classes & awards Lonsdale Belts (1909)
Anti-Prize Fight Film Law (U.S. Federal Law)
The Frawley Law (NY Aug. 29, 1911-1917)
International Boxing Union (IBU, formed 1913)
California Law (1914 - 1924) (limits matches to 4 rounds)
New Jersey -- Hurley Law permits 8 rounders (1918), 12-round, ND bouts permitted starting April 1920
The People v. Packey O'Gatty (Feb. 1918)
The Walker Law (NY 1920)
National Boxing Association formed (1921)
Pennsylvania (1923) -- creates Commission modeled after Walker Law; the law permits ten round bouts to a decision, to be made by two judges and a referee if they disagree.
Chicago News Golden Gloves (1923): Arch Ward coined the term
California permits 10-round fights (1925)
Illinois legalizes boxing (June 1926)
NY Daily News Golden Gloves (1927)
Colorado forms boxing comission, (Apr. 1927, abolished 1977, re-established 1999)
British Board of Boxing Control (1929)
Washington legalizes 10-rounders (6 rds were previous max.) (Apr. 1933)
Texas legalizes boxing (Sep. 1933)
Federation Pugilistic Italiana (Rome April 1938)
European Boxing Union (EBU) replaces IBU (1946)
International Boxing Club formed by Joe Louis with Jim Norris & Arthur Wirtz (1949)
NBA changes name to World Boxing Association (1962)
World Boxing Council formed (1963)
CT bans boxing (1965, repealed 1972)
NABF formed: CA, NV, MO, AZ, IL, Mex (1969)
International Boxing Federation formed (1983)
Professional Boxing Safety Act of 1995 Senate Bill
Professional Boxing Safety Act of 1996 (1997)
U.S. Government takes control of IBF (Dec. 1999)
Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act (2000)
National Boxing Comission Act of 2001 (senate bill)PDF

What the above imformation shows is that throughout history, boxing has always been considered a sport. It has always been regulated by rules, themes, and ideas to enhance it's popularity. It is plain to see that boxing is a sport, and therefore it is not a martial art. Even though some martial arts have been turned into sporting events, which has damaged them as a real means of defense to a great extend, boxing from its birth has always been intended for sport. Whatever two men did instinctually, while engaging in a bout of fisticuffs before then, well we dont know, perhaps that would have been classified as a martial art. As unpopular as this opinion probably is, I dont consider boxing a martial art, because I don't think it can hold up to real scenarios of violence and attack. It lacks the proper preperation and study to equip a fighter to handle the chaos and mayhem of a real fighting situation. Regardless of all that, history already decided that boxing is a sport, not a martial art.

Cain

05-Feb-2004, 12:49 PM

*rubs jaw* Yup - boxers are sure MAists.....

*rubs jaw agin*

|Cain|

ap Oweyn

05-Feb-2004, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by Dark Blade
I think it's just a shallow MA.
So it's just a MA, with fewer techniques...and the pros are a lot stupider.

Frankly, I don't want to consider it a MA, because it's just punching and holding your hands in front of your face, but by strict definition, it is...sadly.

Sorry if I offended anyone, it's just my opinion.

You have every right to an opinion. But it's clear that it's not a very educated opinion. There's much more to boxing than punching and holding your hands out. You'd know that if you'd ever trained in boxing. Footwork, slipping, bobbing, weaving, conditioning, ring strategy, and 'just' punching. (Nevermind the endless combinations of the four basic boxing punches.)

Boxing is a chess game at its best. Except that the chess player also has to have the conditioning to stay in the game long enough to outwit his opponent.

Stuart B.

juramentado

05-Feb-2004, 02:01 PM

Nordic_Blood, that's a interesting POV. Impressive research to back it up as well. :)

Your definition of MA is apparently based on the classical meaning of MA, as arts designed for battlefield use. I started a thread here recently on that; I hoped it would spark a deeper understanding and appreciation of MA along those same terms i.e. from a historically bloody POV.

I think the problem with identifying boxing as a MA lies in the past and current definition of MA. Yes, based on the classical understanding, it is not an MA because it wasn't designed for battlefield use. But the current understanding of MA, as meant for survival in our present circumstances, makes it more "MAish" than even other MAs. Not to mention that the way modern boxers train now is arguably more "martial" than some MAs.

Still, it's quite an interesting POV and makes more even more interesting discussion.

:)

Boxy

05-Feb-2004, 02:09 PM

Boxing, fencing(with rapiers etc - not bricks or super six), Greco-Roman wrestling... all Western - all martial arts.....
WWF ? NAAHHHH

I just had a thought --- discus, hammer and javelin throwing ---all derived from Martial activities.....the list of sports that have resulted from War is rather long.........

Matt_Bernius

05-Feb-2004, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Nordic_Blood
What the above imformation shows is that throughout history, boxing has always been considered a sport. It has always been regulated by rules, themes, and ideas to enhance it's popularity. It is plain to see that boxing is a sport, and therefore it is not a martial art.In the respect that a martial art is at it's root an unregulated form of combat, I agree with your point. However...

Originally posted by Nordic_Blood
As unpopular as this opinion probably is, I dont consider boxing a martial art, because I don't think it can hold up to real scenarios of violence and attack. It lacks the proper preperation and study to equip a fighter to handle the chaos and mayhem of a real fighting situation.I completely and totally disagree with this statement. Given the choice of fighting a boxer or a Martial Artist who have trained for the same amount of time, I'll take the Martial Artist 4 out of 5 times (especially if we're talking a short amount of training time for both). While some see the boxer as having a limited capability, due to the small number of techniques. I see it as the have a lot less stuff to master and functionally apply. Which means they become masters of their domains in a rapid amount of time. And that domain is a close range continuous fight. Nasty stuff.

Now one could also argue that as both people progress, the Martial Artist develops aditional skills to overcome the boxer. That's true. But that boxer is still developing their skills. So the Martial Artist needs to figure out how to get the Boxer onto the MA's Playground if you will. Rule 1: never box a boxer.

As for holding up in a self defense scenario, again in most cases I would probably take a unknown boxer backing me in a fight over an unknown martial artist. I actually think boxers are better prepared for self defense scenarios than most traditional trained martial artists. The reason is that boxers constantly work against "modern" hand attacks (jab, cross, hook, uppercut). Those hand attacks are the most common attacks in the street. In traditional Martial Arts we often work against hand attacks that come out of our own systems (straight lead for example, or a chambered punch). Those hand attacks are very rarely going to be used in the street. So if aything the boxer is training in a "more realistic" scenario than we sometimes do.

- Matt

SoKKlab

05-Feb-2004, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Nordic_Blood
Ancient Olympics
Braughton's Rules (Aug. 16, 1743)

Broughton's Rules (1743), were introduced by the then British Boxing Champion, Jack Broughton, because his opponent George Stevenson died after and as a consequence of their fight (1741).

Broughton's Rules banned:
Seizing an opponent by the Ham or Breeches (Leg or Trousers).

Seizing an opponent Anywhere below the waist, be that with a double leg takedown or by the 'nads...

Hitting or Kicking a downed Opponent.

Before these rule changes, pretty much anything goes.

And, again. Well Said Mr Bernius!

hoogafanter

05-Feb-2004, 03:14 PM

Yeah I agree with alot of you. Boxing is definitly a martial art. Martial Arts, in my opinion, is the art of testing your body and mind to make them become stronger, to make yourself more powerful, for whatever reasons you have for it. Hell, even football if your open-minded enough could be considered a martial art or martial sport. And you cant really say that the pro boxers are the ones you see on pay per view, there are plenty of powerful practicioners of boxing that do it simply for the same reason we practice our styles. Just cause they box deosn't mean they're in the ring...

Nordic_Blood

05-Feb-2004, 08:19 PM

I completely see your point Matt, but to qualify my statement, I don't think very many MA's at all prepare their students for real street aggression. With boxing, as with anything else, we should never assume that one can make the assimilation from the ring or dojo to the street. This type of readiness must be trained for specifically, and abundantly to ready oneself for the onslaught of street type violence. Speaking as a martial practitioner, I was ill prepared to face what really lies out there waiting. Now as a combat veteran, I feel this type of training is a must within any style if you wish to have a viable streetable self defense. That was the context for which I was writing, and boxing was included in my sentiments on the topic. I meant no disrespect towards boxing or boxers, or anyone else, I just have an engrained philosophy when it comes to this sort of thing, abd it was brought about by seeing it with my own eyes, and feeling it as well.

Hannibal

06-Feb-2004, 05:23 AM

With respect Nordic, I know an awful lot of oxers (pro & Amateur) who would literally punch the crap out of anyone in the street. Many supplement their career with doorwork so you can hardly say they are unprepared for stret aggression.

In any case, what is this "street aggression"? The facts are that a "streetfight" is never tyhe same thing twice and to perform self-defence at a high level you need to be able to act quickly, instinctively and brutally. Boxing will give you that ability in spades.

Have you ever fought a good boxer? I don't mean someoe who "does a bit", I mean a GOOD boxer. They are very tough, fit and fast. Chances arethey will be able to punch holes before you get a chance to do much back. I incorporate boxing into my training for those very reasons, and I am in street confrontations every day I am at work. It is by no means a COMPLETE martial art, but few are.

What is your style then that has prepared you so well for "the street"?

Dark Blade

06-Feb-2004, 09:03 AM

I'm so burnt beyond belief that's its not funny :p

It's more I have a problem with boxers like Mundene (spelling).

I withdraw my comment from before :p

*Goes to nurse his wounds*

Stolenbjorn

06-Feb-2004, 09:22 AM

What one must not forget is that martial arts can be either a combat system meant for real life, or a development of the first one into a sport. (Actually martial arts is called kampsport in Norway = martial sport)

That have definately happened to professional western boxing. But that has sure as hell happened to many of the popular EMA's as well, hasn't it? How many % of the "katanaschools" teach a complete system that could be applied on a battlefield, or a duel without rules? If you go back a hundred years, there were some 3/4 major katana schools, and all of them taught probably "proper" martial arts. Today you find litterary hundreds of scools subscools, etc.

You don't have to go further back than the 18th century to find boxing (Mendoza's manual) portraying both grapples and kicks as valid tecniqes in boxing.

But it seems we all do agree now, so I guess I'm a bit late for this discussion (Unless I managed to provoke some EMA'ers :Angel:

Nordic_Blood

06-Feb-2004, 01:03 PM

No offense taken Hannibal, I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Still, to answer your question though, its not the art that prepares you for street combat. I dont know some sectret style or anything like that. Nor do I claim some special skill that others cannot attain, all I'm saying is that no style out there regardless of what it is (boxing included) prepares you to deal with real life street violence. That is something that you have to train yourself for, or find a group that are training for that purpose to train with. It's obvious there are many opinions out there, and since I personally don't think I'm getting anywhere, I'm keeping my opinion to myself on this topic, but I've enjoyed the thread.

Matt_Bernius

06-Feb-2004, 01:38 PM

Nordic,

I agree with you in the supisition that most Martial Arts don't prepare people for street situations as well as they claim. I just got into a long discussion with that on a TKD thread.

However, there are martial arts whose training methodologies work better than others. While it is in no way Reality Based Self Defense training, I do feel that boxing falls into the category of MA that better prepare one for street combat (for reasons that I outlined in my previous post).

Would a boxer do better than someone whose trained in Blauer (or another RBSD program) Tactics? Maybe, maybe not. My bet would probably be on the Blauer person first (provided that they have been seriously training). However if I had to bet between an unknown boxer or an unknown TMA, I'd probably take the boxer.

So I think we agree on most points.

- Matt

Nordic_Blood

06-Feb-2004, 01:43 PM

I'll buy that Matt, and say we do agree on most points, it's a interesting debate either way.

Hannibal

07-Feb-2004, 05:29 AM

Agreed. Good discussion both sides!

*clicks fingers* Next question please waiter....:)

Stolenbjorn

07-Feb-2004, 10:27 AM

My oppinion is that a martial art prepares you for the streets (it might be streets from way back in history), and martial sports train you for a specific situation (the boxingring or the mat)

Flashing Dagger

07-Feb-2004, 01:29 PM

I think we should all take some lessons from the way a boxer trains on a daily basis. Can you imagine the kind of fighter with the fitness, movement and speed of a boxer who also liked to stick his fingers in your eyes and kick your knee caps?

Salute.

b19vny

07-Feb-2004, 09:06 PM

In the 1940's the Japanese Karate-ka training at Keio University used to cross-train with the boxers who shared the gym. It's reported that the boxers were stronger fighters - able to execute many techniques very quickly.

There's no mention of the karate fighters being able to use their legs but they were certainly outmatched in punching.

In the street, if someone gets that first, BIG shot in, on target - the game's up. Who's generally best trained for that?

Is boxing a martial art - I reckon so.

hoogafanter

07-Feb-2004, 09:29 PM

whether or not boxing prepares you better for a real fight deosn't have much to do with whether or not it's a martial art, but yeah i guess i see all your points.

Lanakin

07-Feb-2004, 10:02 PM

Let's see... Is boxing fighting? Yes. Is it precise movements? Well, they're not random. Shouldn't that make boxing a martial art?

TigerAnsTKDLove

07-Feb-2004, 11:25 PM

i would say boxing is but all m/a are different.

Lanakin

07-Feb-2004, 11:42 PM

True. Which is why people cross-train. Like someone else said, you can exploit the weaknesses of a boxer by actually learning how to box, but a knee to the thigh always works! If you can actually get a move in without getting a fist in your nose, that is.

Timmy Boy

09-Feb-2004, 08:11 AM

If you all think boxing is more effective than martial arts, then why are you all doing martial arts and not boxing?

b19vny

09-Feb-2004, 08:35 AM

Not many people have said that boxing is more effective - just that boxers are very effective at what they do. Boxing is a MA but it's not complete - most aren't.

kickcatcher

09-Feb-2004, 09:51 AM

Some quite good points from both sides of the coin.

Personnally I don't care whether it is technically an MA or not. It's realities that matter and it's hard not to place it as a highly effective (if not complete) fighting system.

As for boxing as self defence prep, it's full contact (well, nearly) so it's better mental pressure training than mainstream MA anyhow....

LilBunnyRabbit

09-Feb-2004, 10:00 AM

If you all think boxing is more effective than martial arts, then why are you all doing martial arts and not boxing?

Shooting's more effective than martial arts, so why doesn't everyone do shooting? What does effectiveness have to do with desire to do something?

Cudgel

09-Feb-2004, 04:01 PM

But shooting is a MA :D
People dont all do someting fo rthat same reaons, so while boxing is pretty effective some people want someting else from MA.

CKava

09-Feb-2004, 04:30 PM

Really enjoyable thread, its very nice to see informed debate instead of ignorant ramblings...

Hannibal

09-Feb-2004, 05:13 PM

Whilst boxing is not "for the street" per se, it does use conditioning, hard contact and decisive striking to attain its goals - to hit without being hit.

Very few MA's can offer the same type of physical fitness as boxing, and few advocate full contact. How many people know how they will react if they are punched in the face? Boxers have a pretty good clue because of the regularity. They become more accustomed to it. They also become more accustomed to the adrenal "dump" that occurs during a conflict situation.

Yes boxing is more effective than a lot of MA's - but it has limitations. That is why I learn FROM it rather than solely concentrate my training on it.

Nordic has actually sparked a very good debate here and he is to be thanked. But I will point out that if boxing is not an MA because it is a sport then neither are Judo, Muay-Thai, Karate, TKD, wrestling, shui-chiao, sumo, pancrase, MMA, NHB and so on....they all are sporting in application.

shootodog

10-Feb-2004, 03:40 AM

yes. boxing is a martial art.

Lanakin

10-Feb-2004, 04:09 AM

Ok.. Boxing is a MA... Go on, Shootdog...

I don't really think it matters whether or not boxing is an MA, because it won't really matter if you get into a fight with one. Boxers use a short list of techniques, but have a high amount of training and expertise in each move. Other MA's, such as TKD and such, use a wider range of skills to achieve goals. So, more techniques means you have to be mentally fit to actually know when to apply certain techniques. But, less time to "Perfect" these techniques, but I won't say less physical training. It all depends on the person. Nice little debate here, eh?

Dirk Dagger

10-Feb-2004, 07:30 AM

Ohmigod?!? So is Butterbean a Martialartist? :D

Anyway, I guess all we can see here is that the meaning of Martial Art is very much relative. We all have something to say about it. And some of what we say really does differ.

So what really is Martial Arts? Correct me if I'm wrong, but to put it in lay-men's terms, Martial Arts simply mean, Military Arts. Right? Yes, it could mean, fighting, combat, defense, etc. But I believe that what makes a martial art is the discipline behind the art.

From what I see on the Rocky Movies, I guess it's a Martial Art. And it sure is good to know that the country's very own Manny Pacqiuao(Philippines) is a Martial Artist. Yehey! :D

spacepimp

10-Feb-2004, 08:02 AM

I would definitly have to say yes, it is a martial art. The biggest difference in the way I boxers train and the way most martial arts train is that they know how to take a give a good hit. Most decent boxers have enough power in their jabs to leave most people feeling quite loopy. One of my plans is to spend a year in a boxing school after I attain my black belt to get more actual fighting experience and know how to take a hit better than I do now, and also how to give a good hit.

ap Oweyn

10-Feb-2004, 02:13 PM

From what I see on the Rocky Movies, I guess it's a Martial Art. And it sure is good to know that the country's very own Manny Pacqiuao(Philippines) is a Martial Artist. Yehey! :D

Manny's a hell of a fighter. Based on his footwork, I wouldn't mind betting he's got some arnis background as well.

Timmy Boy

11-Feb-2004, 08:43 PM

Shooting's more effective than martial arts, so why doesn't everyone do shooting? What does effectiveness have to do with desire to do something?

What is the purpose of doing a martial art if you think boxing is better? Shooting is different because it isn't a hand-to-hand fighting art that you can use on the street. Are you all just into the philosophy or something?

spacepimp

11-Feb-2004, 08:59 PM

There is not the belief that boxing is better or for that matter any martial art is in nature superior to another, just superior technique by individuals. All I am saying is that the average boxer trains in a more realistic situation (the really get hit) then the average martial artist. I personally do not want to train in that realistic a fashion yet, I kind of like the fact that my nose is straight and I do not have cauliflower ears. I do plan on taking a year and studying boxing, just to have a little of their conditioning regimen under my belt.

Lanakin

12-Feb-2004, 12:11 AM

There is not the belief that boxing is better or for that matter any martial art is in nature superior to another, just superior technique by individuals.

Well said. There is no "Best" MA, as many people have said before me, but it's who uses the MA and how s/he trains in it. If someone doesn't like Judo and gets a black belt in it anyways, and s/he is put up against someone who loves Judo and probably about half-way through the belt system, I'm pretty sure the one with more heart would win. Same with any MA. If you know how to fight a boxer, then do so to the best of your ability, and perhaps you'll win. As I said before, Boxer's have a lower amount of moves, but know exactly how to use what moves they do have. Most Martial Arts are mental. Not saying that you don't have to be smart in boxing as well, but like I said before, if you have a wider range of skills and know when to use what, then do so. You don't have different techniques just for the sake of knowing them. You've got to use them when they're needed.

:woo:

Hannibal

12-Feb-2004, 12:14 PM

What is the purpose of doing a martial art if you think boxing is better? Shooting is different because it isn't a hand-to-hand fighting art that you can use on the street. Are you all just into the philosophy or something?

What part are you having trouble understanding? Boxing IS a martial art. No better, no worse than most others. maybe they don't like it - ever think of that? I don't enjoy wu-shu, but I respect the skill level of the performers. Open your mind - there is more out there when you do.

toothpaste100

12-Feb-2004, 10:00 PM

From the Oxford Paperback Dictionary:

martial (mar-shăl) adjective of war, warlike

art any practical skill, a knack; the art of sailing

"Traditional Martial Arts" don't teach you how to fight in a realistic warzone, does that mean it is not a martial art? Tai Ji Quan, TKD or Karate would not teach you how to drive an appache or fire an assault rifle and boxing wouldn't either, but they are all practical and involve training to defend yourself and hurt others, so I'll say TMA are martial arts if you will say boxing is too :D

Timmy Boy

12-Feb-2004, 10:25 PM

What part are you having trouble understanding? Boxing IS a martial art. No better, no worse than most others. maybe they don't like it - ever think of that? I don't enjoy wu-shu, but I respect the skill level of the performers. Open your mind - there is more out there when you do.

I make a distinction between boxing and "martial arts" only to make my argument more clear - my opinion on the issue is that boxing IS a martial art. I am not closed minded. I just don't get why so many people are saying boxing is better than other martial arts when THEY DO other martial arts. I'm not the first one to make the comparison, I'm questioning a comparison already made by others.

Timmy Boy

12-Feb-2004, 10:26 PM

To demonstrate my point, if I thought I'd be a more effective fighter if I studied boxing as opposed to tang sou dao, then why would I do tang sou dao?

shootodog

13-Feb-2004, 03:03 AM

To demonstrate my point, if I thought I'd be a more effective fighter if I studied boxing as opposed to tang sou dao, then why would I do tang sou dao?

why would anybody crosstrain? the answer is simple: to be well rouded. to be ready for where the fight takes you.

Dirk Dagger

13-Feb-2004, 05:47 AM

Manny's a hell of a fighter. Based on his footwork, I wouldn't mind betting he's got some arnis background as well.

I wouldn't make that bet. But he sure packs a very powerful wallop. That Barera guys really took the beating of his life. If you observe the way he punches, where he gets the leverage from those punches, it's quite similar how a Karateka punches. From the hips! Cool huh?

Hey, I'm not implying anything.

Lanakin

13-Feb-2004, 06:23 AM

Well.. Here's my mere argument..

A martial art= A martial art = a martial art!

Do you see a pattern here!?
Boxing is a martial arts BECAUSE it is a specific form of FIGHTING that is PRACTICED as an ART. If boxing isn't an MA, what would you call it?

And please.. Let's not have arguments inside of arguments here..

:woo: :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo:

ap Oweyn

13-Feb-2004, 01:47 PM

I wouldn't make that bet. But he sure packs a very powerful wallop. That Barera guys really took the beating of his life. If you observe the way he punches, where he gets the leverage from those punches, it's quite similar how a Karateka punches. From the hips! Cool huh?

Hey, I'm not implying anything.

I don't know enough about Manny to know for sure. But his footwork resembles the triangular patterns I was taught. And the effect of filipino fighters on boxing is relatively well documented. Mostly "Lucky" Lucaylucay if memory serves.

I think if you could freeze frame many boxers, you'd see something resembling a front (or bow and arrow) stance as they land the cross.

Guy Mendiola

17-Feb-2004, 06:46 AM

Boxing Indeed is a Martial Art but it's just that in the boxing curriculam they only punch but learn how to bob,weave, and slip and those are some key factors in Boxing but all of those asian arts and others have kick strikes.

nicolo

17-Feb-2004, 01:59 PM

Well when you say martial art, most people think of the Asian variety because that's been so dominant in terms of unarmed combat. Boxing is DEFINITELY a martial art. Compared to other hand techniques, boxing still reigns supreme in terms of simplicity, technique and effectiveness and it should be a cornerstone in your foundation no matter what you study.

Dirk Dagger

19-Feb-2004, 04:29 AM

I don't know enough about Manny to know for sure. But his footwork resembles the triangular patterns I was taught. And the effect of filipino fighters on boxing is relatively well documented. Mostly "Lucky" Lucaylucay if memory serves.

I think if you could freeze frame many boxers, you'd see something resembling a front (or bow and arrow) stance as they land the cross.

Yeah, I guess it's a Filipino Boxers' Trademark.

Linguo

20-Feb-2004, 11:17 PM

Quality not quantity.

Is Muay Thai any less of a martial art because it might have fewer techniques than BJJ/JJJ? While it's true that boxing has a limited set of techniques, they can be devastating ones, especially if performed by a well-trained and conditioned fighter.

To answer the question, yes, I think boxing is a martial art. The reasons why have been repeated several times over the course of this thread: footwork, strategy, training methods, blocking, parrying, positioning and so forth. I think many martial artists who dismiss boxing, ignore so many great characterisitcs that could augment their skills as a fighter.

And I'd hate to get into a fight with someone who knows how to throw good jabs.

Guy Mendiola

21-Feb-2004, 06:54 AM

Majority of the kids in my school is mostly Boxers ot train in Boxing but I think i'm the only one that does Tae Kwon Do in my school and the others can't fight or even learn how to defend themselves in a real life street situation. :)

Kenpo Kicker

21-Feb-2004, 09:02 AM

blessed_samurai

21-Feb-2004, 11:17 AM

boxing is considered a sport. Does it matter if it is considered a ma? It's good for maist to train in or anyone imo. Kickboxing, and muay thai are also considered sports. They are all good for training in along with any ma really. I supose anything without a kata/patter/form or belts/sashes is not considered ma /shrug. I don't think it matters. I wouldn't mind recognizing these sports as ma.

So, if boxing added kata and wore a sash, it'd be a martial art then? Boxing has certain drills that are a pre-set series of movements...that sounds a lot like kata to me, just a variation. And the last time I checked, boxers get to wear belts...at least the competing ones do, if they happen to win. I mean, here's two guys slugging it out over a belt and a purse...all I'm gonna say is that belt and purse better match.

Also, if by putting on a belt and doing kata, makes the training a martial art, does that mean if I don't wear my belt that day in class and I don't do kata that day in class I am not practicing martial arts? Similarly, does that mean once I stop doing kata and I take off my belt, I cease to be a martial artist?

YODA

21-Feb-2004, 11:30 AM

I don't do kata and I don't wear a belt - guess I'm not a martial artist after all.

Cain

21-Feb-2004, 01:01 PM

Yeesh! Does'nt matter weher boxing is a martial art or not, all that matters is that it's got some great hand techs and footwork combined with good dodging techs. And that you will learn a hell of a lot in it.

I usually sigh when people argue over definitions.....

|Cain|

Andy Murray

21-Feb-2004, 01:11 PM

I don't do kata and I don't wear a belt - guess I'm not a martial artist after all.

Ooh, you fibber. :p

I've seen you do both. ;)

YODA

21-Feb-2004, 01:25 PM

In the past yes - maybe. As recent as last spring even.

You won't again.

shootodog

24-Feb-2004, 01:53 AM

I don't do kata and I don't wear a belt - guess I'm not a martial artist after all.

omg! neither am i!

shootodog

24-Feb-2004, 01:54 AM

Cudgel

24-Feb-2004, 04:17 PM

I don't do kata and I don't wear a belt - guess I'm not a martial artist after all.

REALLY?????

Me neither then I mean aside fromt eh one holding up my pants.

tengu

20-Apr-2004, 08:39 AM

This might get a bit muddled but I have many opinions on this!
1:People have been conditioned into accepting martial arts to be associated with asia, well the west and europe have long been practitioners of martial arts. For example, savate developed in isolation from the east, backhold wrestling, capoeira, la canne, systema,fencing (rapier,epee,sabre), irish stickfighting, english stave, longsword, boxing,wrestling, hawaian lua, african ahati kilindi iyi, indian kalaripappayit....thats just a few off the top of my head! There are only so many ways the human body can move and behave, people will develop similar methods regardlesss of where they come from! I have studied medieval english wrestling and boxing and some of the techniques look similar to jujitsu, get the point? where do you think reverse punches came from? very similar to crosses, just heavily adapted. The ancient egyptians even had which was probably the world's first systemised art-based on boxing and wrestling, the greeks were great boxers and wrestlers, the romans developed pankration, none of them asian.
2:Definition of "martial art" the martial refers to a system of combat, it has a prescribed set of blows to defeat an attacker! The "art" merely is the application of the fighters mind and creativity, what makes a painter an artist? Their mind being creative, their own interpretation and vision! Exactly what a boxer does when they train, finding the best way to throw a punch, or work round a defence, expressing THEIR INTERPRETATION of the system, just like the painter (artist) who has to use his oils in a certain way for the to be effective.
I hope I've made my point.

How

20-Apr-2004, 09:16 PM

ap Oweyn

21-Apr-2004, 01:29 PM

Knight_Errant

21-Apr-2004, 07:28 PM

Boxing is a martial art. So there. It exercises your artistic faculties, such as judgement and creativity, and it's definetly martial. I hate the idiots who want so badly to make sport and MA two seperate issues. They're losers who won't accept that they're losers and do something about it. They prefer to criticise serious martial artists for their supposed 'immaturity' :rolleyes:

shootodog

22-Apr-2004, 01:41 PM

Boxing is not a martial art, Fact.
Defintion of martial art: 'A human art consisting of spiritual and self defence activities.' (This defintion was the same in different martial arts books)

Boxing is not a martial art - It is strictly a sport. That's like saying Football is the same as Rugby. They may seem similar but they are very different.

really? let'sbreak it down shall we:

1) martial- the act of/ state of combat

2) art- way or system.

bud, you've gotten thing muddled. just because some of the keepers of the flames/ teachings were monks (wudan, shaolin, shinto priests, the babaylan, the sufis, etc.) and in fact infused spirituality into it, the bare basics is that martial arts is a system of combat.

i was told by an anthropologist that the spiritual aspect was infused to conquer the fear aspect of dying in combat. ingerently, the fear of getting hurt or killed is within all of us. the way out of that fear is to behold something greater than pain or death.

boxing is a sport now because of the rules that limit/ govern it's application in tournaments. but have no illusion, boxing can and does hold it's own outside of the ring.

Louie

22-Apr-2004, 02:38 PM

boxing is a sport now because of the rules that limit/ govern it's application in tournaments. but have no illusion, boxing can and does hold it's own outside of the ring.

Anyone interested in the early development of boxing before rules changed it into today's 'sports' based system, can find details in a new MAP article which gives a basic overview of the boxers (men and women) who trained and fought using both armed & unarmed combat techniques:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/magazine/styles/pugilism.htm

Louie

shootodog

23-Apr-2004, 03:12 AM

oh, i also forgot to mention that the originators of boxing, the greeks, used to hold boxing matches in relation to religious ceremonies to praise their gods.

Munky_Boxer

23-Apr-2004, 03:34 PM

Boxing was created as a sport and should stay as one, it is not efficient enough to be used as a real life combative art form. But some of its techniques and footwork were worth noticing so that's why Kickboxing was developed, it is the martial arts of Boxing.

Hannibal

23-Apr-2004, 03:50 PM

No Munky, most boxers will break you in half without missing a beat.

Although boxing has a "limited" number of techniques, it is fast aggressive powerful and destructive. In short, an excellent "self-defence" system that, in my very humble opinion, is more effective than many of the more esoteric arts that flow from the orient.

Boxing has always been as much about self-defence as sport. James Figg used to teach boxing alongside staff fighting hundreds of years ago. And kickboxing was around for many years before what we now call boxing (i.e. Muay Thai, Savate). Modern kickboxing comes more from those arts and elements of karate rather than boxing. Your grasp of martial history leaves something to be desired :)

Munky_Boxer

23-Apr-2004, 04:05 PM

YAM
You Are Mistaken

Hannibal

23-Apr-2004, 04:06 PM

NIN

No I'm Not

Munky_Boxer

23-Apr-2004, 04:19 PM

YYA

Yes You Are

Freeform

23-Apr-2004, 04:30 PM

Enough!!!

Enough of these stupid childish posts! If your going to debate this point, then do so. The last three posts are pointless. Munkey_Boxer, fill out your profile fully please so that I can treat your miss-informed posts with the level of concern that they require.

FACT: Modern kickboxing originated in the USA around about the 60's because disgruntled Karateka just wanted to spar and fight (not really a problem).

FACT: The boxing that the greeks had in their olymipcs was a sport yes, then when the romans got their hands on it, it became life or death fighting.

If your going to cite Kickboxing as an MA because it has kicks, then by the converse of your previous arguement Kickboxing is also a sport and not a Martial Art!

Thanks,

Colin S

Hannibal

23-Apr-2004, 04:36 PM

I was trying to!

I have always had a soft spot for the pre-glove era when kicks, trips and throws were quite common. Boxing had the "cross buttock" throw, which bears an uncanny resemblance to a hip throw.

Speaking of pre-glove boxing. what was the historical error made at the beginning of Kevin Costner's "Wyatt Earp"?

Kudos and big superior grin to anyone else who knows!

Munky_Boxer

23-Apr-2004, 04:41 PM

WDYASU

Why Dont You All Shut Up?!

I still think that Boxing is not a MA, what are you going to do, shoot me?

Hannibal

23-Apr-2004, 04:46 PM

Munky how old are you exactly?

Try and debate with me rather than simply posting idiotic acronyms.

Apologies for retreading old ground but boxing is a martial art as much as any others out there. The fact that it is principally tested and viewed within the confines of a sporting arena does not change that. If it did, muay thai, judo, bjj, MMA etc would all similarly be dismissed as not being martial arts.

Panaktukan is a form of boxing too yet I suspect that that would meet your criteria. Merley because something is occidental and sport focused does not mean it cannot be a martial art.

Now. please feel free to discuss and counterpoint.

Munky_Boxer

23-Apr-2004, 04:54 PM

I asked you nicely not to do this again as it is childish and pointless.

Hannibal

23-Apr-2004, 04:57 PM

:rolleyes:

Right Col, over to you!

Munky_Boxer

23-Apr-2004, 05:11 PM

Can't you westeners take a flipping joke?

Hannibal

23-Apr-2004, 05:13 PM

By definition a joke needs to be funny

Now you are posting more than three letters, are you open to debate? If so, off you go I am listening....

Munky_Boxer

23-Apr-2004, 05:16 PM

Well good because here's my view (again)

Boxing is not a martial art and I don't care what you say, it isn't full stop. I am entitled to have an opinion as you all are.

Freeform

23-Apr-2004, 05:19 PM

Well good because here's my view (again)

Boxing is not a martial art and I don't care what you say, it isn't full stop. I am entitled to have an opinion as you all are.

Yes you are, but as I stated in my PM to you, could you please back it up with some ideas. You see, by your rationale you would have Kickboxing and Muay Thai as being purely sports as well.

Care to comment?

Col

YODA

23-Apr-2004, 05:19 PM

Well good because here's my view (again)

Boxing is not a martial art and I don't care what you say, it isn't full stop. I am entitled to have an opinion as you all are.
Sure you are entitled to an opinion.

You are also entitle to post it within the rules you agreed to when you signed up for this forum.

Lose the flippant and immature attitude or find another website to play on.

Munky_Boxer

23-Apr-2004, 05:55 PM

by your rationale you would have Kickboxing and Muay Thai as being purely sports as well.

Yes, they are nothing but sport.

YODA

23-Apr-2004, 06:02 PM

by your rationale you would have Kickboxing and Muay Thai as being purely sports as well.

Yes, they are nothing but sport.
HOW can you say that?

HOW indeed :D

spacepimp

23-Apr-2004, 06:02 PM

so according to you what is a martial art, and what qualifies it as such.

YODA

23-Apr-2004, 06:03 PM

so according to you what is a martial art, and what qualifies it as such.
He may take a while to respond - he's relaxing in the MAP sin bin for crimes against intelligence on other threads.

Freeform

23-Apr-2004, 11:23 PM

Cheers Dave ;)

So, boxing = MA yes!?!

I think everyone is pretty much in agreement.

Guy Mendiola

25-Apr-2004, 08:02 AM

If it wasn't a martial art then Boxing would've never existed.

Colin Linz

26-Apr-2004, 10:38 AM

shootodog

27-Apr-2004, 05:37 AM

Martial Art is really hard to define, in the west we throw everything in together and lump it Martial Arts. Often you will see Budo translated as martial art, but under our concept this inaccurate. In Japan there are Budo, Bujutsu, Bugei and kakutogi. Boxing would fit in the Kakutogi area as it is a sport type martial art. I like these descriptions because they offer more information. For example when we say that boxing is a martial art are saying that it studies some sort of philosophical code, as well as self defence. Or are we saying that it is a good circus trick like the Bugei practitioners would do when they are bending spears on their throats, or breaking bricks in the market place. Or perhaps it is just a fighting method like Bujutsu.

i was from the old school school and by the very definition, budo is the way of the combat warrior. budo is the act of "battle" in everyday life. that is in fact combative in tranquil in nature.

to say that boxing belongs to sport or kakutogi is merely saying that you've never been exposed to boxing outside of the sport context. i assure you, that if you've ever crossed a boxer outside of the ring, you will know that it is budo.

try it. go to a boxing gym. tell any boxer there that looks like he's about your size that you don't think it'll work outside sport rules. then take off your watch and glasses.

Colin Linz

27-Apr-2004, 08:29 AM

The literal meaning of budo is “to stop two spears”. In Japan this is interpreted as a way of ending conflict, how the conflict is brought to an end is not the issue. When describing a pure street form of fighting it would be more apt to use bujutsu; however once its sport its Kakutogi.

I am reasonably comfortable with my understanding of boxing as I used to do it when I was younger, much younger. No doubt it has changed a bit since then. The art that I did before Shorinji Kempo was instructed by a guy who owned a security business, some of his guys were boxers so he used to get them to come down and play with us for the added experience.

Colin Linz

27-Apr-2004, 08:33 AM

Sorry, I forgot to mention that to be budo there has to be some ethical philosophy involved in the art, this is what separates bujutsu from budo

Knight_Errant

10-May-2004, 01:40 PM

[fundamentalist mode]
Actually, boxing isn't just a martial art- it involves a whole field of study. You could fight with karate hands and not get disgualified. This in fact eleveates it from a mere art to being a scientific discipline.
[/fundamentalist mode]

KungFuMaster

13-May-2004, 08:48 AM

I don't think boxing is a martial art because theres doesn't seem to be much "art" in it. :)

Guy Mendiola

13-May-2004, 08:56 AM

The Sweet Science of Fisticuffs(Boxing) is a martial art, it's a form of way to defend yourself so then it is a martial art.

ap Oweyn

13-May-2004, 02:00 PM

I don't think boxing is a martial art because theres doesn't seem to be much "art" in it. :)

What does that mean though? I mean, it's your opinion, and that's fine. But how does it not have any art in it? What would constitute art? Something that was aesthetically pleasing? Something more creative?

KungFuMaster

13-May-2004, 08:08 PM

ap Oweyn

13-May-2004, 08:11 PM

Well, I might not understand the exactly meaning of a martial art, but I know what I like, not that I don't like boxing, but to put it in perspective, Kung fu is like painting with a brush with vibrant colours, whereas boxing is like stabbing the paper to bits. Get what i'm saying? :confused:

Yeah, I get what you're saying. And as an opinion, it's fine. It's just that a lot of people (myself included) are going to see boxing as "painting with vibrant colours."

Opinions vary though. :)

KungFuMaster

13-May-2004, 08:21 PM

Yeah actually, since I've never tried it, I don't know what I'm talking about, I think its up to the boxer to whether he treats it as an art or a sport, just like in tkd, ITF or WTF :)

ap Oweyn

13-May-2004, 08:21 PM

That's pretty much how I feel about it, yeah.

shootodog

14-May-2004, 03:21 AM

Yeah actually, since I've never tried it, I don't know what I'm talking about, I think its up to the boxer to whether he treats it as an art or a sport, just like in tkd, ITF or WTF :)

well my friend, an opinion is good. a shared opinion can be debated.

a long long time ago, when the world was young and it was safe to drink from the faucet here in manila, i had the good fortune of being invited to cross train with the white crane kung fu boys. the lao shir was very open about a lot of things. he said something like:

on the celestial throne where the lord of ten thousand years, son of heaven and master of all things under heaven sit, there beside him are two white cranes. they guard the emperor from all who wish him harm.

remember, we come from those who have protected the lord of ten thousand years. we fight by all means necessary to keep him safe. in the end, that is what we are all about.

it stuck to me. it means that, in spite of all the color and flash, the end was simple: to fight, to defend by all means necessary.

boxing is a martial (fighting) art (system/ style/ process applied at the discretion of the user) as much as the others.

Developing

26-May-2004, 12:22 AM

I leave this post to whoever is interested. I have read all of the available messages concerning the topic: is boxing a martial arts? And I was educated by some of the stuff I read. I think there needs to be some clarification on exactly what is being asked here. Some have chosen to give their opinion on the definition of what "martial arts" is, while many others have debated on whether or not boxing is a more effective than disciplines that are considered traditional martial arts. Whether or not boxing is more effective is does not answer the question of whether or not it is a martial arts. The definition I have in my Webster's New World Dictionary is that martial arts are systems of self defense developed in the Orient such as Kung Fu or Karate. By this definition boxing is not a martial arts. But considering that this definition is incomplete it is not valid. Which brings me to my final point (I hope I haven't bored anyone) in my opinion martial arts is a system of discipline that a man or woman can undergo which will help them develop into a more complete person. Becoming a better fighter does add something to someone. Some arts focus more on physical aspects of training than spiritual, this does not mean they are not martial arts. Boxing is a martial arts in the sense that it conditions someone to defend themselves very effectively. Whether or not boxing is more effective than other more recognized martial arts is a debate for another day. I would say that the individual who trains the hardest in whatever discipline in the majority of situations will be the most effective practitioner.

Guy Mendiola

26-May-2004, 07:47 AM

Boxing is a Martial Art which you can take up to defend yourself like any other martial art.

Nimrook

02-Jun-2004, 10:01 AM

The "sweet science" of boxing is played out like a chess match, except you if you screw up you get hurt. it's like any other form of martial art, it has it's strengths and weaknesses. for example, absolutely no other style in the world has the punching abilities of boxing, weaknesses, not very effective in mma if that is all you have

Knight_Errant

25-Jun-2004, 11:32 AM

Sports used for fighting are, By definition, martial arts.
And, of course, what you term 'art' is always up for questioning. Could it be regarded as a form of conceptual art using living humans as a medium, based around the themes of combat? using rythm, timing, distance and guts instead of brush strokes?
For me anyway, martial arts, and life, is not about figures and diagrams. it's about feelings and gut instinct. These are subjects fit for art.

Kenpo Kicker

26-Jun-2004, 11:25 AM

Well I have cross-trained with some boxing (in my kickboxing) and wrestling way back (from 5th-9th grade) and they both feel like martial arts to me. In our kickboxing class we often box. Oh btw, I also consider kickboxing a martial art. They are just not labeled that way because of different backrounds I guess or the general public does not understand what martial arts is. I do not think these practitioners even care to have it called a martial art and why would they.

JKogas

26-Jun-2004, 01:56 PM

Some people still see boxing as purely a "sport", rather than seeing it as a delivery system/art. Boxing, as a delivery system, can be added to whatever OTHER form of martial art that one is studying (BJJ, for example) and, you end with becoming a more efficient fighter. It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be a ring fighter.

As you tend to fight when using this delivery system, I'd definitely say that boxing is a martial art. And, who says boxers can't be spiritual? That just depends on the person doing the boxing, and what he/she is looking for. I know quite a few traditional martial artists who aren't anywhere NEAR being spiritual. THAT really comes down to the individuals and what they're looking for.

Knight_Errant

26-Jun-2004, 03:57 PM

Spirituality has nothing to do with it. You want spirituality? go to church, or worship your ancestors or whatever. The thing in question is ART.

JKogas

26-Jun-2004, 04:12 PM

Spirituality has nothing to do with it. You want spirituality? go to church, or worship your ancestors or whatever. The thing in question is ART.

My point exactly!

K93200

26-Jun-2004, 11:27 PM

Yeah, it sure is good to run across town with the ROCKY Anthem playing on the background. But is Boxing a Martial Art?:confused:

why not? I take it and it has helped my mind and my body just as much as karate, sure i'd call it that

C-Fugazi

17-Jul-2004, 08:10 PM

What part are you having trouble understanding? Boxing IS a martial art. No better, no worse than most others. maybe they don't like it - ever think of that? I don't enjoy wu-shu, but I respect the skill level of the performers. Open your mind - there is more out there when you do.

Psst..boxing is classed as a sport and not a martial art.You need a licence to box if your proffesional and that licence can be taken away if you use your fists anywhere but a boxing ring.I'm not sure if you need a licence for Ju Jitsu or any other martial art.

senseisknowing

17-Jul-2004, 08:56 PM

Here's a question to C-Fugazi. Could you apply boxing in a situation where you needed to defend yourself? I can train to box and not get a licence. Boxing is the art of the fists. I was in a Tae Kwan Do tournament about a year and a half ago. In my TKD classes all we learned was straight punches. When I fought in the tournament I used hooks to the body like I learned in boxing and my opponents didn't know what to do.
There's also no training harder than real boxing training and anybody who questions that can come and train with me for two months.

cybermonk

17-Jul-2004, 09:22 PM

When I fought in the tournament I used hooks to the body like I learned in boxing and my opponents didn't know what to do.
There's also no training harder than real boxing training and anybody who questions that can come and train with me for two months.

I am going to address the main point in a bit, but first I wanted to address this line which sounded a bit out of line for me. Although I am not particularly fond of TKD I think your opponent not knowing what to do is simply bad training, im sure all martial arts have sidestepping, retreating, forcing, etc as a part of their syllabus.

Secondly, no training harder than real boxing training? Have you tried iron monkey? Where part of the training requires the practitioner to jump and land on his/hers shoulder/knees/elbows etc? Have you tried golden bell(thanks for correcting this Xuande)? I can think of a lot of things which are harder than boxing training.

Now to the main question of the post: I believe boxing is a martial art and a very effective one at that, although as many other martial arts its effectiveness has been diminished by it becomming a sport it can still be used very well in a hostile situation. Its not complete-true but neither is aikido or judo and they are both considered martial arts. However, I am not one to think that boxers are better or worse than traditional martial artists, it all depends on the person and who is better prepared mentally. I agree with those who said that a boxer can become a very effective street fighter after only a few months of training but I am also one to hold the oppinion that a person who has been boxing for 30 years would be a less effective fighter than a person who has been doing a traditional, non-sportive martial art for the same ammount of time. In the end I dont understimate nor overstimate boxers or anyone for that matter, the enemy will be the same no matter what you think of him so why waste the time making up your own picture of him?

YODA

17-Jul-2004, 09:45 PM

Psst..boxing is classed as a sport and not a martial art.....snip snip blah blah.....
Psst... It's ok to be both :rolleyes:

C-Fugazi

17-Jul-2004, 10:30 PM

nunchukpaul

17-Jul-2004, 10:33 PM

;)

Knight_Errant

20-Jul-2004, 01:49 PM

Actually, I'd argue, that by definition, every martial art is a sport designed for fighting- I've seen 'non sport' material, and never been impressed.

cqc156

20-Jul-2004, 01:51 PM

Boxing is a sport period!very seldom do boxers get into street fights because they have to protect their hands. Their hands is their investment and livilyhood.

Knight_Errant

20-Jul-2004, 07:26 PM

so it's a sport designed for fighting?
then it's a martial art.

ap Oweyn

20-Jul-2004, 07:27 PM

Boxing is a sport period!very seldom do boxers get into street fights because they have to protect their hands. Their hands is their investment and livilyhood.

How often do other types of martial artists get into street fights?

I'm thinking a knife in the kidneys might put a cramp in my livelihood as well.

shootodog

21-Jul-2004, 02:19 AM

Boxing is a sport period!very seldom do boxers get into street fights because they have to protect their hands. Their hands is their investment and livilyhood.

really? wow! so i suppose all those street fights that involved boxers were flukes huh? so many of them too. besides, not all boxers are professionals. i'm a boxer and i've been in fights. i'm not protecting my hands unnecessarily. besides, i've seen other so called martial artists that refuse to fight because they might injure themselves and not compete in the next tae kwon do or karatedo tournament.

like ap owen said, a knife in the kidney or the throat would put a crimp in your style.

Knight_Errant

21-Jul-2004, 06:03 AM

The point we have to grasp, surely, is that we are FED UP TO THE MEDULLA OBLONGATA* of childish morons who want to make a distinction between 'combat sports' and 'martial arts'- the same kind of absolute scum to whom anything 'western' is always 'primitive' (compare boxing to karate. Which one is more complex and sophisticated?). Not all boxers go down the road of being proffessional fighters. Many gangsters, such as the krays or so I hear, trained as boxers in their youth.

*What does this mean?

Fallacio

04-Aug-2004, 09:44 PM

Sweet Science of Fisticuffs. Groovy.

It's cool to see a bunch of folks who acknowledge boxing's worth, as it seems like a lot of the more exotic guys are quick to discount it. But as life has taught me, people who talk poorly about boxing have not faced a skilled proponent of the Sweet Science.

Most people have no experience with boxing outside of famous heavyweights, and they play a very different game than textbook pugilism. I've always seen a good boxer as being quick, efficient and effective; no movement without purpose and every one leading into a possibility for any of the others to come out.

A boxer has a handful of punches, but he can apply each one from such a startling range of positions and situations that would surprise most. And (as has already been noted extensively) the limited range of techniques means that he spends A LOT of time perfecting them. Every step, parry, slip, and punch should lead into the next, and in the right hands I guess it would turn into something like chess. Seems like a lot of guys would rather lift weights and get big than hone their techniques, but that's just individual outlook.

Boxing has no abstractions, but this is one of its biggest strengths. There's no dead weight, no gis or sashes or praying to the founders. Belts are for holding your pants up and beating your children, IMO, and I would much rather have a mastery of effective fundamentals than a limitless range of esoteric techniques -- an oversimplification, but we've all got preferences.

Keep It Simple Stupid has always served me well, and I'll happily ride the coattails of all the good folks who've observed that someone who dismisses boxing as a true fighting art has just never gone toe to toe with a boxer.

In conclusion, boxing certainly does not have the wide range of techniques required in an art expected to deal with kicks to the head, sword-wielding madmen and eight different opponents at once, but its simplicity (when properly trained) allows it to be adapted quite quickly to any situation. And, again, I don't know how often your average Joe Sixpack, confronted "on the street" by whatever lowlife, will have to deal with kicks to the head, sword-wielding madmen or eight different opponents at once.

It doesn't occupy the same position as 17th century iaijutsu, but it was never meant to. Even if you really like oranges, an apple is an apple and a good apple shouldn't be criticized for not being a good orange, right?

Thanks for the soapbox.

YODA

04-Aug-2004, 09:51 PM

Welcome to MAP Fallacio - you speak sense :D

OBCT

04-Aug-2004, 11:51 PM

Well, TKD is very much commercialized. But you don't see it on Pay per view right?

And a boxer is usually called as a "price fighter". He's in it for the Pot money. That Dude, is what I mean by commercialization.

Not that it's a bad thing, It's good entertainment.

Isn't gracie doing an MA called BJJ ? thats a MA is it not ? And isn't UFC pay per view ?

shootodog

05-Aug-2004, 09:37 AM

i can't believe this thing is still alive!

***goes and bangs head against the wall***

Guy Mendiola

05-Aug-2004, 09:04 PM

Boxing is a sport period!very seldom do boxers get into street fights because they have to protect their hands. Their hands is their investment and livilyhood.You'll have to know there's two sides of Boxing the competitione side which is the sport and the martial side which is the martial art, it's just like some martial arts having the sport side and the martial side.

Knight_Errant

06-Aug-2004, 12:14 AM

Welcome fallacio. I see you rock :)
now can this thread die?

binski20

06-Aug-2004, 01:49 AM

Boxing is a sport period!very seldom do boxers get into street fights because they have to protect their hands. Their hands is their investment and livilyhood.
I've been steering clear of this for now, but I just wanted to say this. Your saying boxers choose to avoid street fights to protect their hands. If they have the choice, why would anyone get into it??????????? Seems pretty stupid to me. Your creating a situation with the choice to choose to fight or not to fight, then adding a reason to discredit boxers in the bogus situation.

funkymonk

06-Aug-2004, 01:59 AM

I used to box about 17 years ago and wish i'd kept it up but i was too interested in alchohol and women to keep up the training , which involved stuff like 5 mile runs carrying light weights in your hands for stamina training. Saying that since i've been learning taekwondo my punches have definitaley got stronger.

shootodog

06-Aug-2004, 05:16 AM

people! before you post anything new, read the 3 pages of post. all of it. i believe that this has been discussed as far as it could go. please let this thread die.

OBCT

06-Aug-2004, 12:11 PM

people! before you post anything new, read the 3 pages of post. all of it. i believe that this has been discussed as far as it could go. please let this thread die.

Ha Ha Ha, What a twisted read. Yes please let it die a miserable, lowly, painful death. This thread is dead.

savage

09-Aug-2004, 02:10 AM

i say yes boxing is a martial art
its an art
and martial means fightin, combat, or war
so it could be called a combatative art or martial art in this case :cool:

cybermonk

09-Aug-2004, 02:26 AM

Maybe someone should lock this thread already. But while we are at asking pointless questions I will take the opportunity to introduce some questions of my own :D

1) Are kung fu systems martial arts?
2) Are karate systems martial arts?
3) Are MT systems martial arts?
4) What about Jujitsu, is that a martial art?
5) Judo, could that be a martial art?
6) Aikido, martial art?
7) *Add any other martial art here and proceed to randomly question whether its a martial art or not*

alex_000

09-Aug-2004, 10:03 AM

7 is not a martial art :D

OBCT

09-Aug-2004, 10:24 AM

I hear origami's secret paper slash techniques are vicous. and the masters use metal sheet the call it 'iron fold'. Great in combat, and very arty. so i say its a martial art.

fonzerelli_79

20-Aug-2004, 12:26 AM

The Sweet Science of Fisticuffs(Boxing) is a martial art, it's a form of way to defend yourself so then it is a martial art.

short and sweet and in my eyes correct:)
anything that teaches you how to attack and defend yourself is a martial art
i do twk but have a helluva lot of respect for boxers. You can always tell at sparring whos did boxing before and who hasnt

boxing is an art just like karate, ju jitsu or akido
just my 2 pennies :)
:D

Yukimushu

20-Aug-2004, 12:33 AM

It doesn't matter weather its a martial art or not; as long as your able to attack / defend yourself then who cares? :D

Slindsay

20-Aug-2004, 12:46 AM

So to sum up what we have all gained from this thread:

7

JKD guy

20-Sep-2004, 08:38 PM

"I would rather fight an 'expert martial artist', than a so-so boxer" - Marc MacYoung

That quote kind of says it all, no ?

cybermonk

20-Sep-2004, 09:09 PM

"I would rather fight an 'expert martial artist', than a so-so boxer" - Marc MacYoung

That quote kind of says it all, no ?

Cant believe this thread was resurected, but while we are at it, I dont think that quote says it all, I just think its a very biased quote. A so so boxer would be as good as a so so "martial artist." Why would it be any different?

tkdhkddave

22-Sep-2004, 02:05 PM

My own humble opinion, clearly boxing (western) has it's roots firmly in ma if you go back a few hundred years. And for a long time now has been part of army life, and it's an art for sure, if you don't think so then go to a reputile boxing gym and try it, so i think if you want to call it a martial art you could.

As far as usefulness on the street goes, lets just say I have been doing ma since junior school age and I'm now approaching 30, I train in hkd, tkd and amauter boxing and would have to say some of the best and most focused and nasty punchers I have seen all came out of a boxing gym although I wouldn't want to fight any of them one on one outside if I had a choice I would choose the tkd stylist.

I think anyone who does a ma and dimisses boxing because it's a sport and is on tv is missing out on valuable cross training and need to open their minds up a bit.

AAAhmed46

27-Sep-2004, 10:06 PM

I agree with tkdhkddave. Just try and feel a punch to the head from a boxer.

glenchuy

02-Oct-2004, 04:49 AM

Could a skinny person sumo? :confused:

i'm 5'8-1/2" and 130lbs, i don't think i can play sumo with 400 pounders :p

inosanto1

30-Oct-2004, 03:15 PM

boxing is certainly a martial art, if you look at the influence of the filipino arts on boxing, look at the progression of boxing(ie stances, punching styles) especially early on in the bare knuckle eras,. John Sullivan, who looked like a karate man when he fought, look at the filipinos with the knife, they were bobbing and weaving long before boxers. Ali actually trained with now well known filipino's to improve his footwork. TKD and Karate are the most well known of the martial arts due to public perception and films(Karate Kid Series), TKD due to being in the sports environment

inosanto1

30-Oct-2004, 03:21 PM

I think it's just a shallow MA.
So it's just a MA, with fewer techniques...and the pros are a lot stupider.

Frankly, I don't want to consider it a MA, because it's just punching and holding your hands in front of your face, but by strict definition, it is...sadly.

Sorry if I offended anyone, it's just my opinion.
so what is thai boxing, if not the same. Bruce Lee had great respect for boxers, if i put money on a boxer and a martial artist in the street, it would be the boxer. and how do you define a MA? does it have to come from Japan,china Korea, MA actually started in india and most notably, Thai boxing is over 1000 years old

inosanto1

30-Oct-2004, 03:28 PM

Hehehe...

I think you mean "Prize fighter" ;)

But boxing gyms don't have black belt clubs, testing fees, etc. ;)

Commercialization comes in many forms.
it is a true form of combat, purely because you have to test yaslf in order to progress, you have to get in that ring, that is very hard, what did Bruce state" to honestly express yourself" no belts no hidden costs, just membership.

AAAhmed46

20-Nov-2004, 07:06 AM

I will admit that Boxing is too concentrated in one area of striking, but so is TKD. WIth cross training, boxing can be devastating. Hell, muay thai schools take almost all thier punchs from boxing, and take many factors from it. And muay thai cannot be critisized as a sport.

Krazy5051

20-Nov-2004, 01:52 PM

Greetings,

Boxing is one of the most shallow martial arts, I agree.

Generally, most Boxers are stereotypically dumb and can only use their fists as that is what they are conditioning and training most for effectiveness.

As for boxers v REAL martial artists (real martial artists as in we have a complete system), a boxer wouldn't defeat an MA. The MA would take the boxer to the ground if needed and he/she would be like a fly in water.

Boxers rely on their image of being able to "knock you out mate in one punch" but unfortunately only a select few really can and the techniques and expertise of the human body from an educated and well rounded martial artist could destroy a boxer in a second.

I can see boxing being only good for one thing, fitness.

It will offend some people, but unfortunately theres not much to boxing. Although alot of people who put their life into boxing and training them believe there is...

Example:

Trainer: My boy will knock you out in a few rounds mate, his power and fitness is unbelievable.
Boxer: Yea my punches are lethal, a few of them and you'll be on the ground out cold.
::Krazy5051 grabs trainer and chokes him out, then attacks the boxers knee and swipes and breaks his arms:: - Krazy leaves boxing club.

I'd never be caught in a boxing club unless I was operating a 'clean up'.
The intelligence levels and incompetence is to much.

Yours in martial arts, :woo:

Kid

alex_000

20-Nov-2004, 02:05 PM

Talking like that only shows that you never had any involvment/contact with boxing or boxers.

If you had you would even be afraid to troll on a forum about boxing.

YODA

20-Nov-2004, 02:05 PM

Krazy5051 - If I responded to that post as I feel it needs responding to - I would have to sin bin myself. :rolleyes:

I have seldom (I won't say never) heard such load a utter nonsense. :eek:

mike-a

20-Nov-2004, 02:35 PM

Yikes!

I've had to deal with boxing in my JKD/integrated arts training. I have a background of japanese arts, and was in no way prepared to deal with a boxer.

They have a limited set of tools, and a lack of kicking and grappling may appear to seriously disadvantage a boxer, but I have nothing but respect for the "sweet science". It's easy enough to move to a range where the "pure" boxing techniques don't work, but that doen't prove boxing is less of an art, it merely avoids the issue.

Boxers have superior body mechanics, and a huge conditoning advantage. Personally, dealing with boxing is *the* hardest thing I've ever had to do. I have to force myself to stay in boxing range in order to improve my skills. It is *not* just brute force, a good boxer is at *least* as artful as a fighter of any other style.

Let's also not forget that filipino panantukan and pangamot are *very* closely related to boxing...

Yukimushu

20-Nov-2004, 02:59 PM

Krazy5051, step into a ring or onto a mat with a boxing effectiant martial artist, and watch as your opinion changes, slip by slip, punch by punch.

Mine sure did!

Timmy Boy

20-Nov-2004, 03:09 PM

Trainer: My boy will knock you out in a few rounds mate, his power and fitness is unbelievable.
Boxer: Yea my punches are lethal, a few of them and you'll be on the ground out cold.
::Krazy5051 grabs trainer and chokes him out, then attacks the boxers knee and swipes and breaks his arms:: - Krazy leaves boxing club.

I love imagination, don't you? I mean, if you can visualise getting through the inevitable barrage of punches and doing al these moves that easily, you MUST be able to in real life!

Krazy5051

20-Nov-2004, 10:09 PM

Greetings,

I have seldom (I won't say never) heard such load a utter nonsense.

Even a wise man like you Yoda can be surprised sometimes... dangerous. ;)

As for the rest of your replies, I'm in a position where I can make comments like I have. Been there, done it, proven myself right and others wrong. It has got to a point where I read posts like all of you are making and think is there any development being made in your MA capability/knowledge?

I am still here with my confidence and my personal ego which goes unbroken. :rolleyes:

Don't be fooled though, you may think I am outspoken, bold and ignorant. To the naked eye I am the opposite but life experiences have made every loud-mouthed, arrogant, in your face egomaniac who has dropped to the floor in front of me boost the confidence of my own training, my own art and my own ability and skill. If only the rest of you were as cofident you would maybe have more success.

Knowledge dispells fear, you people lack it and are engulfed by the latter.

Yours in martial arts,

Kid

YODA

20-Nov-2004, 10:13 PM

*Shakes head at MORE utter nonsense.

you may think I am outspoken, bold and ignorant.
THAT bit made sense though :Angel:

Ressla

20-Nov-2004, 10:16 PM

I'd never be caught in a boxing club unless I was operating a 'clean up'.
The intelligence levels and incompetence is to much.

Yours in martial arts, :woo:

Kid

I love it when somebody implies that they are "intelligent" , but appears not to understand the difference between "TO" and "TOO", even when they have gone back and edited their post.

Cheap shot to point out someone's typos ,I know, but this troll deserves it.

MarioBro

20-Nov-2004, 10:23 PM

Greetings,

Even a wise man like you Yoda can be surprised sometimes... dangerous. ;)

As for the rest of your replies, I'm in a position where I can make comments like I have. Been there, done it, proven myself right and others wrong. It has got to a point where I read posts like all of you are making and think is there any development being made in your MA capability/knowledge?

I am still here with my confidence and my personal ego which goes unbroken. :rolleyes:

Don't be fooled though, you may think I am outspoken, bold and ignorant. To the naked eye I am the opposite but life experiences have made every loud-mouthed, arrogant, in your face egomaniac who has dropped to the floor in front of me boost the confidence of my own training, my own art and my own ability and skill. If only the rest of you were as cofident you would maybe have more success.

Knowledge dispells fear, you people lack it and are engulfed by the latter.

Yours in martial arts,

Kid
Hehehe....that was funny.

Egomaniac, loudmouthed and arrogant...obviously. Due to an abundance of self-confidence? Not likely...

Everyone is in a position to make comments...and you can usually tell those who have knowledge and wisdom as they do not make posts like that. But as long as you feel superior to everyone else, which only by words does it seem that you do, I suppose that is all that matters.

Yukimushu

20-Nov-2004, 10:41 PM

I had to read that twice to see if he was being serious or not :D

YODA

20-Nov-2004, 10:47 PM

I had to read that twice to see if he was being serious or not :D
Alas - I fear he is :rolleyes:

Either that or we have yet another bridge dweller in our midst.

Timmy Boy

20-Nov-2004, 10:47 PM

Greetings,

Even a wise man like you Yoda can be surprised sometimes... dangerous. ;)

As for the rest of your replies, I'm in a position where I can make comments like I have. Been there, done it, proven myself right and others wrong. It has got to a point where I read posts like all of you are making and think is there any development being made in your MA capability/knowledge?

I am still here with my confidence and my personal ego which goes unbroken. :rolleyes:

Don't be fooled though, you may think I am outspoken, bold and ignorant. To the naked eye I am the opposite but life experiences have made every loud-mouthed, arrogant, in your face egomaniac who has dropped to the floor in front of me boost the confidence of my own training, my own art and my own ability and skill. If only the rest of you were as cofident you would maybe have more success.

Knowledge dispells fear, you people lack it and are engulfed by the latter.

Yours in martial arts,

Kid

Right. So you're telling me you actually DID go into a boxing club and do that?

I have no problem with my confidence. I got bullied at school and had run-ins with random chavs when walking through town, I've had my fair share of fights, and unless I've been outnumbered I've usually come out on top. As you say, the people who fought me were arrogant, loud-mouthed, and devoid of any form of intelligence. This is before and after doing proper martial arts training, by which I mean when I actually started putting effort into training.

Fear, you say? Of course I have fear. It's not a good idea to not be scared of anyone as there is always a bigger fish. The difference between me and you - and the reason I still have fear in some situations - is that I don't assume I can take on the great whites just because I caught a load of minnows.

YODA

20-Nov-2004, 10:55 PM

Here is a little information on our illustrious "Kid"

http://www.50fiftyone.com/kidkrazy.html

Can you spell D E L L U S I O N A L? :rolleyes:

kenpfrenger

20-Nov-2004, 11:00 PM

Do they ever argue on the Judo forums if Judo is a martial art?

Yukimushu

20-Nov-2004, 11:01 PM

KidKrazy, the "Suicidal Aerial Assault Artist"?

He's a kid alright, he looks to be under 16.

So much for...

I'm in a position where I can make comments like I have. Been there, done it, proven myself right and others wrong.

I presume these experiances took place in the school playground?

Matt_Bernius

20-Nov-2004, 11:04 PM

I had to read that twice to see if he was being serious or not :DAs serious as a self promoting backyard wrestler gets. After visiting his site, it all starts to fall into perspective. Probably one too many moonsaults off the garage roof.

- Matt

Yukimushu

20-Nov-2004, 11:06 PM

As serious as a self promoting backyard wrestler gets. After visiting his site, it all starts to fall into perspective. Probably one too many moonsaults off the garage roof.

- Matt

ROFLMAO!!! :D No truer words have been said :)

Timmy Boy

20-Nov-2004, 11:10 PM

I think this is an example of the mainstream world standing against you, kid. But believe me, we're not looking on in concern, just humour :D

alex_000

20-Nov-2004, 11:19 PM

Yeh that site's really something. I showed it to a couple of friends of mine (boxers) and they are still running scared to death..

Yukimushu

20-Nov-2004, 11:21 PM

He's been watching too much TV if you ask me! :D

Apotheosis

21-Nov-2004, 02:25 AM

It is a martial art by definition, so yes it is a martial art. As for Krazy, its funny to hear you call all others unintelligent while you obviously are not the smartest tool in the shed.

AAAhmed46

21-Nov-2004, 03:50 AM

I think Krazy was joking, i mean, he had to be, no one is that stupid.

AAAhmed46

21-Nov-2004, 04:03 AM

Well, kid, i should be mad at you. I write stories. And the intro to one of my short stories is just like the bio you wrote.

Apotheosis

21-Nov-2004, 05:19 AM

Well that explains it, hes a "backyard wrestler"...must have gotten hit on the head a few to many times.

andrewS

21-Nov-2004, 05:23 AM

I'd never be caught in a boxing club unless I was operating a 'clean up'.
The intelligence levels and incompetence is to much.

Simple spelling is a bit too much though, huh?

MarioBro

21-Nov-2004, 02:12 PM

Simple spelling is a bit too much though, huh?Well, that is nit-picking...I have seen so many members use 'to' instead of 'too' (or vise-versa). There are so many other good reasons to make fun of him...;).

But be careful, after all he is an accomplished Ninja with 16 years of experience behind him (apparently right from the time his mom pushed his oversized ego out of her) and he could be hiding behind you right now!!! bwaahaahaahaa...:rolleyes:.

Krazy5051

21-Nov-2004, 04:14 PM

Greetings,

Lets not get our knickers in a twist girls, seem to have hit a nerve. ;)

I knew my opinion would provoke this reaction in a boxing thread, maybe I shouldn't have, ah well... I did.

Congratulations on doing your homework guys, 50:51 is an entertainment medium that I work with. As for my history, it all adds to my illustrious thirteen year career in martial arts and entertainment - i don't see how you can possible make fun of it, or even want to? If you really want to follow my entertaining antics in the wrestling, music and entertainment industry you can keep track on http://www.kidkrazy.co.uk - when its back up and running, whenever that is.

Otherwise, stay in school kids and do boxing - it's... helpful. :cool:

I'm getting out of this thread area, it was my bad to let you all know my truthful opinion on boxing. It hurts doesn't it. :woo:

Yours in martial arts,

Kid.

MarioBro

21-Nov-2004, 05:04 PM

Greetings,
If you really want to follow my entertaining antics in the wrestling, music and entertainment industry you can keep track on http://www.kidkrazy.co.uk (http://www.kidkrazy.co.uk/) - when its back up and running, whenever that is.

Your website, though empty, still has more substance than do you. Good luck...

Timmy Boy

21-Nov-2004, 05:14 PM

I'm getting out of this thread area, it was my bad to let you all know my truthful opinion on boxing. It hurts doesn't it. :woo:

On this forum, I deal with people who have different opinions to mine all the time. We all do. You're not the first person to disagree with my opinion on something. 9 times out of 10, people disagree on things without having to resort to flaming; look at the discussions between myself and ap_oweyn, who I have great respect for. However, your opinion attacks the style of boxing - and calls boxers bad fighters - without any factual basis, while you claim that you are a ninja and you look about 13 years old.

This is not simply a case of "the truth hurts". I have changed my opinions on things since I have got here, and I do all the time. My political views shifted away from the far left because of people convincing me otherwise, and likewise my opinions on martial arts have moved. What I object to is people like you boasting about their ability and deriding the abilities of others without any logical basis for doing so.

alex_000

21-Nov-2004, 06:07 PM

As for my history, it all adds to my illustrious thirteen year career in martial arts and entertainment - i don't see how you can possible make fun of it, or even want to?

maybe because you look 15 in your site :D

http://www.50fiftyone.com/kidkrazy.html

YODA

21-Nov-2004, 06:14 PM

I knew my opinion would provoke this reaction in a boxing thread, maybe I shouldn't have, ah well... I did.

.... There's a name for that.

Clue: Starts with "T" and ends with "ROLLING" :rolleyes:

inosanto1

21-Nov-2004, 06:18 PM

Get any traitional martial artist on the mat with a boxer and prepare for max damage to be inflickted on the martial artist. why do you think that bruce lee used boxing. it is a martial art and a very good one at that, just look at the filipino influence on the sport and that should clear all arguments.

YODA

21-Nov-2004, 06:28 PM

Timmy Boy

21-Nov-2004, 06:34 PM

Hmmm..... ANY traditional martial artist?

With "a" boxer?

I think that's stretching it a bit.

Yeah, that's implying that I could have beaten Masutatsu Oyama :D

Slindsay

21-Nov-2004, 06:42 PM

Great, now we've gone from a stereoypical viw on boxing to a stereotypical view on martial artists. Loads of boxers have been beat up by martial artists cos they dont train for kicks or groundfighting or fighting bare knueckled, loads of martial artists have been beaten by boxers because the boxers spar regulalrly and full contact and often get pretty good conditioning.

To reply to the original point of the thread boxing is not a martial art if you take it to go to competitions and treat it as a sport, it is a martail sport, there is nothing wrogng with this and in a real fight many martial sports athletes could beat up a martial artist.

If you box becasue you want to learn an effective way to defend yourself and get fit then it is a martial art and you are a martial artist.

If you do it for both reasons: Congratulations, you'r getting the full benefit of boxing, you are a martial artist and an athlete.