Natural weapons

[Judderman]

What natural weapons do you encourage in self protection and how do you use them most often?

A punch is a great weapon, but not necassarily to the mouth or head as you could injure yourself more than the target.

Any thoughts?


Budo.

[Matt_Bernius]

Quick point for clarification:

By natural weapons are you referring to using parts of our body?

If not can you clarify?

- Matt

[Judderman]

Yes Matt.

Parts of the body.

[Reiki]

elbows are very handy! :D
Nothing better than a good empi to the face LOL! or a headbutt.

so is a hefty palm heel to the face and a stomp on the foot or a kneebreak.

fingers in the eyes would be a good one too.

However I'd have to say the brain is your best weapon, by being aware of your surroundings and who/what was there, planning ahead to avoid a situation.

Reading thru Geoff Thopmsons books this is what he continualy stresses and this is what is pounded <pardon the pun!> into us during our SD training.

[xubis]

Brain
Fingers
Knuckles
Palm
Inside and outside of hands
Forearm
Elbows
Head
Knees
Shins
Most parts of your foot
The list is endless!

[Judderman]

Good list Xubis. Which of these weapons do you use most often (excluding your brain) and how do you use them?

Budo.

[quartermaster]

image of bashing someone to death with a passer by's brain are beggining to surface

[Matt_Bernius]

My choices (in order of personal most common use)

1. Palm strikes
2. SPEARing (see my previous posts on the SD board)
3. Low line (knee or below kicks)
4. Elbows and Hand Rakes (they're a 2 for 1 technique)
5. Knees
6. Close fisted punches

Beyond that I consider anything else to fancy for first tier self defense. While that doesn't mean that I wouldn't use other techniques, I consider the above "go-to" natural weapons.

- matt

[wayofthedragon]

any and every part of the body you can use to come to the ends that you want

[ranger]

elbows for me! :) especially to the kidneys. palm heels are great weapons also.

[ICT]

What natural weapons do you encourage in self protection and how do you use them most often?
A punch is a great weapon, but not necassarily to the mouth or head as you could injure yourself more than the target.
Any thoughts?
Budo.

Budo,

I'm guessing you didn't mean every part of the body, I mean that is a no-brainer that you could use any part of the body as a weapon.

So I'm going to assume you meant specifically what natural weapons are the most practical & effective.

1) ELBOWS:
(A) Spears to the sternum, spine & throat.
(B) Vertical up to the groin, chin, arms & chest.
(C) Horizontal to the face, neck, ribs, knees, shins, spine & arms.
(D) Vertical down to the neck, collarbone, thigh, shin, chest & spine.

2) KNEES:
(A) Spears to the thighs & shins.
(B) Vertical up to the groin, head, face, neck, spine & chest.
(C) Vertical down to the chest, neck, spine & head.
(D) Horizontal to the knees, thighs, groin, head, chest & back.

These are my favorites and are easily learned by beginners and are the most practical & effective natural body weapons for techniques!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[Judderman]

Eddie, Im intrigued that you didn't mention hands and feet.

Why is that?

Budo.

[ICT]

Eddie, Im intrigued that you didn't mention hands and feet.
Why is that?
Budo.

Budo,

Like I said in my previous post, the whole body can be used as a weapon! I was giving natural weapons that I feel are the most natural to use, the easiest to perform, quickest to learn and effective when applied.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[Judderman]

Could you expand a little for me please Eddie.

I can understand the arguement for the knee and elbow.

I guess I'm looking for the arguement against hands and feet. What, in your experience, leads you to believe that knees and elbows are easier than hands and feet?

Thanks.

Budo.

[ICT]

I guess I'm looking for the arguement against hands and feet. What, in your experience, leads you to believe that knees and elbows are easier than hands and feet?

Thanks.

Budo.

Budo,

Hands & feet can be lethal but are much harder to learn. I mean come on how were you at your first punch or side kick, it took lots of repetitions to throw a well enough executed technique for it to be effective. The hands are fragile with small bones and have to be toughened (without getting into internal strikes) and hands & feet are limited more so to effective striking areas than knees & elbows. How many accomplished Boxers & martial Artist have broken they're hands in a fight. (Tyson at his prime did)

Elbows & knees are very hard without any conditioning and are easy to learn. You don't have to do hunreds & thousands of repetitions to execute one correctly. You can hit almost any body part with an elbow or knee and if you screw up the technique it still comes off as a hard & effective blow.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[darlph]

How about how you carry yourself? If you look like a victim chances are you are. How about being aware of your surroundings..eyes and ears? Keeping distance between youself and strangers. Your voice, not a scream but yelling fire! In if all that fails, any part of my body that can do the attacker harm... fingers to the eyes, foot or knee to groin, elbow to face or stomach, ectera. Purse to the weapon or head.Try to keep control of self to survive..

[kickcatcher]

How about how you carry yourself? If you look like a victim chances are you are. How about being aware of your surroundings..eyes and ears? Keeping distance between youself and strangers. Your voice, not a scream but yelling fire! In if all that fails, any part of my body that can do the attacker harm... fingers to the eyes, foot or knee to groin, elbow to face or stomach, ectera. Purse to the weapon or head.Try to keep control of self to survive..

I don't put on any act unless i feel threaterned. Like most people, dispite al the good advice about awareness, I go about daily life in ignorant bliss of most risks. It isn't mentally healthy to become paranoid -it is a fine balance.

[sakura]

On reading this thread, it appears that none of those who have posted on it are female!! Given that the thread is 'Womens Self Defence' - 'Natural Weapons' I don't think any of you have an idea what it is like to fight like a woman!

For example, how many women do you know who will punch someone in the face? I don't know of any! As a Womens Self Defence Instructor and Martial Arts Instructor I have not found many women willing to do so!

As my good friend and fellow Instructor says, he would rather go up against 5 men in a fight than try to separate 2 women who are fighting due to the way they fight! (ie Men shove and throw a punch or two and can be separated by a mate with one hand on their chest, women need an army to untangle them from eachother and anyone going in there may not come out alive!)

[darlph]

Guess what? I am a female 47 yr old that does teach self defence. What I have seen, if a female looks like she doesn't have confidence or is depressed, she has made herself a victim by retreating into herself, eyes usually lowered. A full time bad guy knows this Usually if a person exerts some sort of confience facade, it may make a potential attacker think twice. I do not say have an "awareness' as movies and legend portray, but be observant. Keep distance between yourself and a stranger, if they can touch you, too close. If you are approached by more than 1, do not back into a corner. Look around before you step in a parking lot, esp. if it's dark. Shopping in a store, make sure your purse is closed and the handle is attached securely, don't flash large wads of cash,don't carry your lifes story in your purse. Use your common sense smarts. Try to prevent an attack. That's not being paranoid. If attacked, sure you may panic at first, but if you train,your reflexes will probably kick in and you regain your senses to survive. Your training reflexes will propbably be automatic. Your whole body becomes a weapon.As soon as you get free, confronting the attacker is usually not a good thing. Haul buns to safety File a report then,so details are fresh in your mind.

[darlph]

Forgot to mention, the post was about a womens natural weapons, not how well they fight. Personally I wouldn't want to separate a cat fight myself by grabbing a woman. I would rather use a hose. :D

[pgm316]

Budo,

Hands & feet can be lethal but are much harder to learn. I mean come on how were you at your first punch or side kick, it took lots of repetitions to throw a well enough executed technique for it to be effective. The hands are fragile with small bones and have to be toughened (without getting into internal strikes) and hands & feet are limited more so to effective striking areas than knees & elbows. How many accomplished Boxers & martial Artist have broken they're hands in a fight. (Tyson at his prime did)

Elbows & knees are very hard without any conditioning and are easy to learn. You don't have to do hunreds & thousands of repetitions to execute one correctly. You can hit almost any body part with an elbow or knee and if you screw up the technique it still comes off as a hard & effective blow.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

In some ways elbows and knees can be more difficult, in that the range is much closer to use them. So maybe stick with kicks/punches until it gets to that range would you say?

Although it soon gets to that range in a pub brawl :D at which point knees elbows will be much more effective.

[darlph]

See, we are all thinking MA people right now and what you have learned. Think about the average female, she uses nails, teeth,ecetera. Most females today have had some self defence information of gouging the eyes, thumbs to eyes or temples, knee or foot to groin, elbow to stomach or face. Even a head butt I saw in another seminar for the non MA.

[Kenpo Kicker]

comming from a male perspective:

straight punch to nose, jaw, ribs, grown, or temple (I know some women have less conditioned hands than some men :( )

tiger claw strikes/grabs (tiger claw grab to grown is effective if your in the position to use the technique and throat (the throat strikes grabs and pulls in a very fast motion)) (for the strike I generally go for the nose and eye)

palm heal aka palm strike (similar strike as a tiger claw but does not have the raking grabing motion to it) ( I would use these to jaws, nose, and temple mostly)

single knukle punch aka dragon fist and eagle's claw ( good rib shot and temple shot)

stomp kick type 1 (stomps the knee going down and then stomps the foot in one strike)

hook punch ( I have three different hooks used the same tkd's is less of a telegraph and gets you back to a guard position faster so I generally use that) (it could be from kickboxing dunno my tkd is mixed with it) I go for the temple with this one and usually throw a jab and follow up with a hook

elbows or forearm strike (temple)

upper elbow or a upper cut (jaw)

spinning elbow (good for getting out of clinch strike to temple or where ever it lands and use combos with any move but this one it's really needed)

knees (when in a clinch knee to grown or ribs if possible the head too pref the nose or temple)

back kick (kenpo version aka donkey kick in kung fu) (grown if in the right position) I honestly dunno if I would use this kick. I think it could come in handy though.

tkd back kick (this is a straight kick and not like the kenpo's back kick at all) (good for knocking the opponent back striking solarplex, ribs, or grown) (it has distance like most tkd kicks and can chamber up close to push the opponent)

inner crescent kick (knee only)

sidekicks (ribs or knees)

roundhouse/shin kick (I use shin for a closer range than a roundhouse would have) (ribs, thighs, shins or knees)

front push kick aka thrust kick (solarplex)

front snap kick (knees or grown)

snake strike (throat or eyes)

earclap (cup your hands and hit both ears with both hands and it throws the opponents equilibrium off)

I left out the grappling and blocks since I don't want to explain them
I use techniques from karate, jj and tkd for stand up and ground grappling. I use mostly kenpo,tkd, and kickboxing for blocking. Some of these strikes I would use to the grown that I did not mention. It just matters the position that I am in. Even a snake strike could go for the grown. Every strike needs a combo and practice many combos that are continuous. The best thing to do is to have a punch of combos in a fight that form 1 technique. 1-2 techniques should take out the average joe. Never hesitate during fighting. Fights are fast let it all out. Also do not worry about what is taught as combos but use your own and just flow. I'm a big fan of knees and elbows and also striking to eyes, grown, knees, jaw, and temple. I didn't mention all the areas to strike.



I use more strikes/moves than that but I like these sort of moves. I do not know if women can do what I mentioned. I doubt if you don't know these strikes you could use the effectively. I think for getting off the ground women should have some sort of jj training.

[Judderman]

There have been some very interesting posts. So to pick up on some.

Eddie, thanks for the clarification, it makes very good sense. I know very little about the SPEAR system (I'm currently looking it up), but from the little I've read/seen I can see that it might be exceptionally useful with elbows and weapons.

PGM, you make a good point about range. From the fights I've seen after the first one or two hits, range does degenerate rapidly.

KenpoKicker, you have listed a number of techniques. Which of those would you consider most effective?

Sakura and Darlph, I would really like to hear more from you as you are both female instructors. Although men and women can face similar attackers and reason for attack I suppose that the way in which a women is attacked would be different. From what little I know of criminal attacks against women, the majority would be in the form of a grab, as many men assume that a women is weaker than them. Is it reasonable to assume that you would teach women slightly different weapons, as they face slightly different scenarios? If this is the case, what weapons do you teach?

Budo.

[totality]

no point in jeopardizing my ability to train. NEVER throw a punch in a street fight, only elbows.

and any schmuck can try to stand and bang with you. not many people know how to deal with being put in a neck tie and forced to eat knees to the face/chest/stomach/groin.

[Reiki]

On reading this thread, it appears that none of those who have posted on it are female!! Given that the thread is 'Womens Self Defence' - 'Natural Weapons' I don't think any of you have an idea what it is like to fight like a woman!

For example, how many women do you know who will punch someone in the face? I don't know of any! As a Womens Self Defence Instructor and Martial Arts Instructor I have not found many women willing to do so!

As my good friend and fellow Instructor says, he would rather go up against 5 men in a fight than try to separate 2 women who are fighting due to the way they fight! (ie Men shove and throw a punch or two and can be separated by a mate with one hand on their chest, women need an army to untangle them from eachother and anyone going in there may not come out alive!)

WRONG!
I'm a woman too and I'd hit anyone in the face with a decent palm heel strike!

[darlph]

You are quite right, most women are grabbed. As mentioned before, keep a distance from strangers. Survey you surroundings. Grabbed from behind- heel or foot to groin or shin. head butt put your hips to the side and fist to groin or grab and squeeze. Grabbed front- knee to groin stomp their foot swing hands up and tothe center to sweep hands away Thumbs to eyes or temples. Never put your fingers or hands near mouth. Punch the nose hard and quick Voice.. yell fire same as you tell a kid. As soon as they release hold haul butt to safety. Usually a female is attacked in secluded areas or non visual places. Be aware. If it makes you incomfortable to be somewhere there's a stranger and you are alone, get out of there. Car keys make great weapons in parking lots and at secluded doorways.

Books are great tools for learning self defense. As a MA person I try to practice new things. The average person doesn't do the same or practice like MA people do. They are at a disadvantage. They take a self defense course once and never practice those escapes or defense moves again. They are forgotten about in time of need. So it ends up being kicked in the groin, a distance thing. Perhaps just changing a few habits now can help them later. Some of the things i stated in a previous post.. don't make yourself a victim.

[hedgehogey]

Holy god.

Elbows are NOT the kind of end all solution they're advertised.

Now as a SE Asian kickboxer and vale tudista I use elbows all the time. But they have some important limitations.

ONE: They are worthless when you're grabbed, most of the time. They are certainly worthless when someone's on/got/bearhugging your back, for several reasons. Firstly, they simply don't work on someone determined. Second, they're hard to aim. Third, they require you to step off to the side, which puts you off balance and will thus get you slammed down.
For an illustration of this point see UFC Severn VS Maccias.
TWO: They require good clinching skill. Otherwise you're taken down, thrown or slammed before you can get even one off. If someone has underhooks on you or has you in a neck clinch, you aint getting nowhere with them.
THREE: They are pretty much only useful for hitting the head. The only time you can hit the body is if you've quickly changed levels and are far below them.
FOUR: Elbows must be thrown with an OPEN hand. A fist makes them stiff. And unfortuenately fist elbows are taught in the majority of women's SD courses.

Now for the rest:

This eye gouging, nut stomping, etc stuff doesn't work. It doesn't work for MEN to defeat men, it certainly won't work for women to do the same.

First of all, groin attacks are a PAIN based technique. Some people can ignore pain, and unless your attacker is a wuss it won't KO them. It'll probably just make them madder.

Palm heels should be thrown with the same mechanics as boxing punches. If a woman is unwilling to hit a man wearing a helmet and mouthpiece with big boxing gloves she sure as hell won't be willing to hit him with a palm strike, barehanded.
Second most of these techniques are practiced against nonresisting opponents. The men in suits have distorted body proportions (making for tiny arms, but HUGE heads with eyes five times normal size) and aren't really resisting or attempting to slam/hurt the women in those courses.

I watched my mother take the IMPACT course twice. It was crap.

[Kenpo Kicker]

There have been some very interesting posts. So to pick up on some.

Eddie, thanks for the clarification, it makes very good sense. I know very little about the SPEAR system (I'm currently looking it up), but from the little I've read/seen I can see that it might be exceptionally useful with elbows and weapons.

PGM, you make a good point about range. From the fights I've seen after the first one or two hits, range does degenerate rapidly.

KenpoKicker, you have listed a number of techniques. Which of those would you consider most effective?

Sakura and Darlph, I would really like to hear more from you as you are both female instructors. Although men and women can face similar attackers and reason for attack I suppose that the way in which a women is attacked would be different. From what little I know of criminal attacks against women, the majority would be in the form of a grab, as many men assume that a women is weaker than them. Is it reasonable to assume that you would teach women slightly different weapons, as they face slightly different scenarios? If this is the case, what weapons do you teach?

Budo.



roundhouse/shin kick (I use shin for a closer range than a roundhouse would have) (ribs, thighs, shins or knees)


straight punch to nose, jaw, ribs, grown, or temple (I know some women have less conditioned hands than some men )

tiger claw strikes/grabs (tiger claw grab to grown is effective if your in the position to use the technique and throat (the throat strikes grabs and pulls in a very fast motion)) (for the strike I generally go for the nose and eye)

palm heal aka palm strike (similar strike as a tiger claw but does not have the raking grabing motion to it) ( I would use these to jaws, nose, and temple mostly)

elbows or forearm strike (temple)


knees (when in a clinch knee to grown or ribs if possible the head too pref the nose or temple)


sidekicks (ribs or knees)


hook punch ( I have three different hooks used the same tkd's is less of a telegraph and gets you back to a guard position faster so I generally use that) (it could be from kickboxing dunno my tkd is mixed with it) I go for the temple with this one and usually throw a jab and follow up with a hook



"ONE: They are worthless when you're grabbed, most of the time. They are certainly worthless when someone's on/got/bearhugging your back, for several reasons. Firstly, they simply don't work on someone determined. Second, they're hard to aim. Third, they require you to step off to the side, which puts you off balance and will thus get you slammed down.
"
Worked for me in real life with a elbow to the solarplex they let go right away. technique used from a bearhug from behind: elbow to solarplex, tiger claw to grown and pull up and elbow chin. They didn't want to fight after that technique. Simple and effective from kenpo. I only got to test it once but it works tested by me and is nowheres near useless. My master can send me flying on the ground with a elbow from behind (when holding shield pad). It is powerful.

I can send pad holders flying back from this sort of elbow. I don't recall the name but tkd practices it as well

[sakura]

WRONG!
I'm a woman too and I'd hit anyone in the face with a decent palm heel strike!

Then you've just proven me right!! You wouldn't PUNCH you'd use a "decent palm heel strike"!!

[sakura]

What I have seen, if a female looks like she doesn't have confidence or is depressed, she has made herself a victim by retreating into herself, eyes usually lowered. A full time bad guy knows this Usually if a person exerts some sort of confience facade, it may make a potential attacker think twice.

It's really good advice you've given - similar to what I teach! With reference to the above, I think it depends entirely on your location and the circumstances. Not all victims are timid and retreat into themselves. This is something that the media makes us believe to make us feel better about ourselves if we are the confident type, forcing the less confident to feel more like 'victims'. I've seen & heard about just as many confident women being attacked than less confident. The more confident women can sometimes be worse off afterwards as they have been conditioned to think that it wouldn't happen to them!!

The awareness is so crucial in all of this. Be aware of your suroundings, the people around you. Even when you get a cab, sit on the opposite side to the driver in case you have to flee.

[kickcatcher]

The awareness is so crucial in all of this. Be aware of your suroundings, the people around you. Even when you get a cab, sit on the opposite side to the driver in case you have to flee.

LOL. I always pay myself.

No, but it is good SD advice.

[sakura]

LOL. I always pay myself.

No, but it is good SD advice.

You know what I mean!!! LOL

[hedgehogey]

"ONE: They are worthless when you're grabbed, most of the time. They are certainly worthless when someone's on/got/bearhugging your back, for several reasons. Firstly, they simply don't work on someone determined. Second, they're hard to aim. Third, they require you to step off to the side, which puts you off balance and will thus get you slammed down.
"
Worked for me in real life with a elbow to the solarplex they let go right away. technique used from a bearhug from behind: elbow to solarplex, tiger claw to grown and pull up and elbow chin. They didn't want to fight after that technique. Simple and effective from kenpo. I only got to test it once but it works tested by me and is nowheres near useless. My master can send me flying on the ground with a elbow from behind (when holding shield pad). It is powerful.

I can send pad holders flying back from this sort of elbow. I don't recall the name but tkd practices it as well

And the circumstances of this? Was it an attacker or just a demonstration?

I'm not impressed by what youcan do to bag holders. Sending a person who's fighting back flying, that's impressive.


Then you've just proven me right!! You wouldn't PUNCH you'd use a "decent palm heel strike"!!

They're pretty much the same thing.

[Kenpo Kicker]

Attacker and was caught off guard. The person holding the pad is sent flying back. That is even better. When I was attacked at that time my elbow was not as strong as it is now with tkd training. Nobody fights me anymore, and I don't pick fights so dunno what my elbow will do. I agree with you that it is not the holygrail but works great in this particular situation.


"They're pretty much the same thing."

I disagree to me the palm heal is stronger.

[hedgehogey]

Nobody fights me anymore, and I don't pick fights so dunno what my elbow will do.>>>

That's why you should fight in class.


I disagree to me the palm heal is stronger.>>>

They are thrown with the exact same body mechanics.

Watch pancrase to see exactly how strong that palm strike is.

[sakura]

Then you've just proven me right!! You wouldn't PUNCH you'd use a "decent palm heel strike"!!

They're pretty much the same thing.


Well in the last anatomy class that I took the heel of the hand was on the palmar surface - the opposite side of the hand to the knuckles (traditionally used for punching!!!) :D

[hedgehogey]

No, what i'm saing is they're thrown in the same way as a punch.

[Reiki]

Then you've just proven me right!! You wouldn't PUNCH you'd use a "decent palm heel strike"!!

We are taught hard target = soft weapon, soft target = hard weapon

IOW if u are aiming for the head [hard target] you get a better and more effective hit by using a soft weapon like the palm heel. Working in waveform technique it is even more powerful as u come back and hit him again and again.... :yeleyes:

I wouldn't hesitate to use my Right cross targeting the solar plexus either. Or any other weapon I had at my disposal, an elbow or a kick or whatever was appropriate. Use the closest weapon, closest target.

My main targets would be the knees [they cant hurt u if they cant catch u!], the face and eyes if I could [they cant hurt u if they cant see u!] and the other points around the face and neck for a KO. Then some sort of an armbreak [they cant hurt u as much if u break their arms too!].

A handy dandy thing we were taught for a nite home invasion scenario was to drop to the floor in the dark [where they cant see u] and incapacitate them by cutting their archillies tendons with a kitchen knife.... :D

A bit messy because apparently it bleeds a lot, but I can see it being quite useful in a desperate situation. They won't be so keen to mess with you or others in the future.

Let's face it, if your life or your family's lives are in dange you will do whatever you have to do to stay alive. I would, and I believe that there are many other people who will risk being prosecuted by the law in the same way.

Everyone should practice and practice their self defence moves constantly so they become permenent in muscle memory and an automatic response.

[Kenpo Kicker]

Some may be thrown the same but their is more solid bone in the palm heal strike, and I hit harder with it. There are types of palm heals that cannot be thrown with the fist in the same way either. If you did you would punch with the wrong knuckles and would be ineffective so the mechanics are not the same. I also like straight and hook punches. I just use both and like palm heals a little more. This is for me not u. Not everyone fights the same. I also usually use tiger claws which are the same thing except they rip, pull, and rake in addition. It is ezier to also break somones nose with a palm heal.



"That's why you should fight in class."


Spar or you suggestion I challenge somone to a fight in my school they would probly think I was joking. I spar alot.



"Then you've just proven me right!! You wouldn't PUNCH you'd use a "decent palm heel strike"!!

They're pretty much the same thing.


Well in the last anatomy class that I took the heel of the hand was on the palmar surface - the opposite side of the hand to the knuckles (traditionally used for punching!!!)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"



I said to me not you. I never tried to prove palm strikes are better than punches, lol. Same thing to u not to me. It was a personal preference.

[sakura]

I think you are all missing the point I was trying to make!!

How many women do you know who will punch (with knuckles) when in a fight situation - unless they are of martial arts background there are very few. As you have all proven you would use alternate strikes (ie palm heel strike).

I'm not saying women won't fight back but men teaching non MA women self defence need to consider that most women do not want to punch someone and potentially damage their hand, they would rather use a different strike!!!

[hedgehogey]

. It is ezier to also break somones nose with a palm heal.>>>

Compare the number of nose breaks in boxing to the number of nose breaks in palm strike only MMA and you will see that's not true.



Spar or you suggestion I challenge somone to a fight in my school they would probly think I was joking. I spar alot.>>>

In vale tudo the distinction is largey semantic.




Well in the last anatomy class that I took the heel of the hand was on the palmar surface - the opposite side of the hand to the knuckles (traditionally used for punching!!!)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I mean they are thrown in the same way as boxing punches, IE a hook palm is thrown the same way as a hook punch.

How many women do you know who will punch (with knuckles) when in a fight situation - unless they are of martial arts background there are very few. As you have all proven you would use alternate strikes (ie palm heel strike). >>>

I don't see your point here. There's no real psychological difference between KOing with a punch and KOing with a palm. It takes the same amount of guts.

[sakura]

.
I don't see your point here. There's no real psychological difference between KOing with a punch and KOing with a palm. It takes the same amount of guts.

My point is, if you get 10 women and ask them to hit someone in an attack scenario, most of them would not punch (using knuckles). This is due to reasons such as vanity (bruised/cut knuckles don't look pretty!), fear of hurting themselves (bad posture/hitting with just the arm/hand and not the body behind the strike) or just that women who are not in martial arts do not generally punch in a fight!!!

Trust me, I've taken enough self defence and martial arts classes to know that women do not like punching punch bags/pads/people without protection on their knuckles!!

[Kenpo Kicker]

" It is ezier to also break somones nose with a palm heal.>>>

Compare the number of nose breaks in boxing to the number of nose breaks in palm strike only MMA and you will see that's not true."

The hell I care i'm not mmaist or boxer. I am saying it takes less force to push a nose up then in and there is your ez break. Last I knew tiger claws are not allowed in either. You cannot even do a palm heel with a boxing glove on. I train for the street. Most mmaist practice in clone type arts and just punch, use roundhouses and ground fight. Not very real (rule wise the mmaist train hard and that makes them good fighters on the street as well) or unique. I fight open handed and a palm heal is faster than a punch for me.










Spar or you suggestion I challenge somone to a fight in my school they would probly think I was joking. I spar alot.>>>

In vale tudo the distinction is largey semantic

I am a hemophilic I canno do full contact. My doctor said he would not let me. I was gonna do some nhb and found out I have this ****.

[Kenpo Kicker]

My point is, if you get 10 women and ask them to hit someone in an attack scenario, most of them would not punch (using knuckles). This is due to reasons such as vanity (bruised/cut knuckles don't look pretty!), fear of hurting themselves (bad posture/hitting with just the arm/hand and not the body behind the strike) or just that women who are not in martial arts do not generally punch in a fight!!!

Trust me, I've taken enough self defence and martial arts classes to know that women do not like punching punch bags/pads/people without protection on their knuckles!!


I noticed they have softer wrists and knuckles threw pad holding :( . I felt bad for one girl that kept saying ouch every punch and seeing her wrist bend. I think a palm heal is even more practical for a women. Tiger claws may break their nails :( .

[sakura]

I noticed they have softer wrists and knuckles through pad holding :( . I felt bad for one girl that kept saying ouch every punch and seeing her wrist bend. I think a palm heal is even more practical for a women. Tiger claws may break their nails :( .

I know how nastly women can get when they break a nail!! God help the poor person holding the pad / they are training with !!

You have to try to develop good punching technique and strengthen the wrists (can be very hard to do with some people) in order to stop women from spraining/straining their wrists when punching especially those with delicate frames. That's one thing I've had trouble with in the past!! The last thing I wanted to do was bulk up or do weights (as some people suggested I do) and end up like popeye !! The hand grips are quite good for wrist strengthening, you have to get women's ones though as they offer slightly less resistence to men's otherwise they'd have to use two hands to squeeze the bloody things!!! LOL

[Kenpo Kicker]

heh, It's not wrist issue for me. I have to do lots of knuckle push ups and have some strong wrists. I think it is more of a angle thing weither a punch or a palm strike is more effective. I am a big fan of elbows/forearm strikes (my forearm muscles feel like a bone so I may perfer that rather than risking chipping my elbow) and grabbing the person to strike. I wouldn't use any palm strikes to anything other than the head area. It is nasty when you see nails on the floor :( . The women try to figure out whos nail it is. Lol, ppl call me a hulk or monk at my dojang. I guess it doesn't matter I can break a nose with a punch or a palm strike. I love tiger claws though I get a bonus scratching their eyes out after I break the nose. I think if you strike at the right angle hard enough maybe blood will get in the eyes and blind them. I will test that out on the next a hole with a tiger claw.

[hedgehogey]

The hell I care i'm not mmaist or boxer. I am saying it takes less force to push a nose up then in and there is your ez break. Last I knew tiger claws are not allowed in either. You cannot even do a palm heel with a boxing glove on. I train for the street. Most mmaist practice in clone type arts and just punch, use roundhouses and ground fight. Not very real (rule wise the mmaist train hard and that makes them good fighters on the street as well) or unique. I fight open handed and a palm heal is faster than a punch for me.>>>

1: If you think all mmaists do is punch, roundhouse and groundfight you're sorely mistaken. That's where the muay thai influence comes in, with the knees, elbows and push kick, as well as standing submissions and throws from judo. Crazy ass mmaists like shonie carter and sakuraba have even introduced spinning backfists, double mongolian chops and cartwheeling guard passes.

2: Boxing is closed fist only. Palm strike MMA is only palm strikes. To see the relative difference in effectiveness just look at them in action. I'm not saying palm strikes are worthless, but they're not "better" than punches.

[ICT]

In some ways elbows and knees can be more difficult, in that the range is much closer to use them. So maybe stick with kicks/punches until it gets to that range would you say?

Although it soon gets to that range in a pub brawl :D at which point knees elbows will be much more effective.


A lot of people I see have gone off in tangents. There was nothing said about ranges, or whatever. The question was about natural body weapons. I stick to my post of elbows & knees as the most practical & effective natural body weapons and they can be used from all ranges to defend!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[ICT]

On reading this thread, it appears that none of those who have posted on it are female!! Given that the thread is 'Womens Self Defence' - 'Natural Weapons' I don't think any of you have an idea what it is like to fight like a woman!




I was posting with WOMEN in mind and I have trained lots of women and took the time to learn how they react & fight.

We were not talking about 2 untrained college girls brawling over the quarterback but about natural weapons that would be best used to defend oneself.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[ICT]

Holy god.

Elbows are NOT the kind of end all solution they're advertised.



Again another person has gone off on some sort of tangent! The post was about the best natural weapon to use in a self-defense situation primarily for women. ELBOWS & KNEES are the most effective & efficient weapons to use!

Holy god.

Now as a SE Asian kickboxer and vale tudista I use elbows all the time. But they have some important limitations.



Uh don't all techniques have some sort of limitations? Can't do much of anything wraped in a bag & stuffed into a trunk of a car BUT aint the point, not to get there in the first place!!!!!!!!!


Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[ICT]

I think you are all missing the point I was trying to make!!

How many women do you know who will punch (with knuckles) when in a fight situation - unless they are of martial arts background there are very few. As you have all proven you would use alternate strikes (ie palm heel strike).

I'm not saying women won't fight back but men teaching non MA women self defence need to consider that most women do not want to punch someone and potentially damage their hand, they would rather use a different strike!!!

Sakura,

Yes many on here have gone off on tangents and missed the point.

Also no offense to women but how many of you GUYS have heard the saying "you punch like a girl" Most women cannot punch well enough to defend themselves even with the help of some limited self-defense class!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[hedgehogey]

Again another person has gone off on some sort of tangent! The post was about the best natural weapon to use in a self-defense situation primarily for women. ELBOWS & KNEES are the most effective & efficient weapons to use!

And i'm saying there is no objective "best" weapon to use in a fight, it all depends on context.



Uh don't all techniques have some sort of limitations? Can't do much of anything wraped in a bag & stuffed into a trunk of a car BUT aint the point, not to get there in the first place!!!!!!!!!


Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

And this is relevant because in most womens self defense courses elbows are taught as an end all and be all. Especially as a defense against being grappled, such as a "bearhug". Experimental evidence (my own sparring, relevant matches such as Severn VS macias, UFC 4) has shown two things:

1) Elbows and knees are not a good defense against a person who's taken your back or is in some other superior grappling position (which is what they're advertised as in women's SD)
2) Elbows and knees require good clinching skill to pull off, something which is almost NEVER taught in women's SD.

[hedgehogey]

Mr Ivester:

I knew that name sounded familiar.

I remember digging up some HEELARIOUS anti grappling. And that's where I remember you from.

His school teaches the following:

http://www.ict-silat.com/Anti-Grappling.jpg
It's a sideways crab takedown! Well known to retarded wrestlers and crustaceans everywhere!

http://www.ict-silat.com/Jarvis_Haney.jpg
Anti grappling stance...They shoulda...sent...a...poet....

PS: Wanna come to a mcthrowdown?

[ICT]

And i'm saying there is no objective "best" weapon to use in a fight, it all depends on context.


Ok, now your getting into hypothetical scenarios! There is no such thing as the BEST technique for everything. So if I have to teach a WOMEN to defend herself I will teach knees & elbows!


And this is relevant because in most womens self defense courses elbows are taught as an end all and be all. Especially as a defense against being grappled, such as a "bearhug". Experimental evidence (my own sparring, relevant matches such as Severn VS macias, UFC 4) has shown two things:


Again no one said anything about self-defense classes!!!!!!!! The question was on the best natural weapons to use, not the best technique to use from those weapons!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[ICT]

Mr Ivester:

I knew that name sounded familiar.

I remember digging up some HEELARIOUS anti grappling. And that's where I remember you from.

His school teaches the following:

http://www.ict-silat.com/Anti-Grappling.jpg
It's a sideways crab takedown! Well known to retarded wrestlers and crustaceans everywhere!

http://www.ict-silat.com/Jarvis_Haney.jpg
Anti grappling stance...They shoulda...sent...a...poet....

PS: Wanna come to a mcthrowdown?

hedgehogey,

Well let me enlighten you on a couple of things:

1) You know nothing about what I know of grappling! I know lots!

2) You take a couple of pictures showing a TECHNIQUE and assume what, that's all I teach on the subject.

The Anti-grappling I teach is not an end all stop everybody magical device! Had you ever studied with me (and many NHB & Grapplers have) you would know I am very hard on the people learning these techniques and make sure they know that if they think they are going to stop a competent grappler with one anti-grappling move they are sadly mistaken!

Anti-grappling is designed only to stop the initial takedown so the exponent can apply some sort of counter technique. The grapplers I have taught these techniques to LOVED them! They stop their opponent and then go into a GRAPPLING maneuver of their own!!!

But thanks for sharing my website on here, I appreciate it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[hedgehogey]

hedgehogey,

Well let me enlighten you on a couple of things:

1) You know nothing about what I know of grappling! I know lots!

So, ever won a submission grappling tournament?


2) You take a couple of pictures showing a TECHNIQUE and assume what, that's all I teach on the subject.

I'm just assuming you teach that technique.


The Anti-grappling I teach is not an end all stop everybody magical device! Had you ever studied with me (and many NHB & Grapplers have)

Names?


Anti-grappling is designed only to stop the initial takedown so the exponent can apply some sort of counter technique.

That's all fine and good, but frankly I can't see these techniques stopping an untrained football tackle, much less a single leg takedown.

The grapplers I have taught these techniques to LOVED them! They stop their opponent and then go into a GRAPPLING maneuver of their own!!!

These grapplers are?


But thanks for sharing my website on here, I appreciate it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

Even MAP needs humor sometimes.

PS: Wanna come to a mcthrowdown?

[ICT]

hedgehogey,

Ok now I see where you’re coming from! Your not on here to learn, enlighten or debate but instead to antagonize and spout off about how grappling is the greatest fighting style of all time!

Good luck to you.

PS: Anytime you want to come to Florida I will be happy to accommodate you! Oh but one thing: No mats, No referee, No rules. Let's roll!!!!!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[Judderman]

That's all fine and good, but frankly I can't see these techniques stopping an untrained football tackle, much less a single leg takedown.

Forgive me. Any idiot can say "Pah! That won't work!!".

I don't consider you an idoit, so could you please expand upon your reasoning instead of attacking other posters.

Also you stated in an earlier post that the use of elbows and knees require a good use of the clinch. Could you expand on this further and explain why you think this please?

Eddie, there are many tangents that have been brought up. Indulge me if you would and follow one. The weapons you have stated you describe as easy for women to learn. How do these then compare with those you might teach men? Is there any difference?

Budo.

[hedgehogey]

hedgehogey,

Ok now I see where you’re coming from! Your not on here to learn, enlighten or debate but instead to antagonize and spout off about how grappling is the greatest fighting style of all time!

Gee I don't remember saying that. Funny how I study muay thai, then?
I have just two questions for you:

1) How many submission grappling competitions have you or your students won?

2) Who are the grapplers who have studied under you?


PS: Anytime you want to come to Florida I will be happy to accommodate you! Oh but one thing: No mats, No referee, No rules. Let's roll!!!!!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

Oh, you mean vale tudo?

PS: I do believe there is a florida mcthrowdown coming up. Look on bullshido.com

[hedgehogey]

Forgive me. Any idiot can say "Pah! That won't work!!".

Listen to the idiot. Offer to try it on him.


Also you stated in an earlier post that the use of elbows and knees require a good use of the clinch. Could you expand on this further and explain why you think this please?

Certainly. In any kind of muay thai match, in a clinch it is almost always the fighter with a superior clinching position who lands more and better shots. This is because a superior clinch ties up the opponents arms and puts him off balance so he can't knee.

A kneck clinch, for instance, pulls the opponents head down, allowing you to knee his face and drop down elbows. The opponent is however unable to fire any strikes back, considering he is way too bent over to knee anything and can neither reach nor see your face.

If someone could post some pictures i'd much appreciate it.

Thus attempting to knee or elbow your way out of an INFERIOR clinching position (which a back bearhug is) is a foolish idea.

[hedgehogey]

Forgive me. Any idiot can say "Pah! That won't work!!".

I don't consider you an idoit, so could you please expand upon your reasoning instead of attacking other posters.


Oh, forgot.

In the first picture:
The "grappler" (more like a student pretending to be a grappler) is shuffling towards the defender sideways, like a crab. The attack doesn't even REMOTELY resemble a single or double leg takedown. Second, the defender is standing straight up, which means an easy takedown. He should be sprawling.

In the second:
It could take days to dissect the sheer astonishing level of pendejidad in that "anti grappling stance" but the ones that come immediately to mind are:
You are wide open to being kicked, punched, kneed, etc.
One of your legs is far forward, making for a very easy single leg takedown.
You are crouching on the ground in an elaborate pose.

[Judderman]

I have seen Muay Thai in Thailand, so I understand a little about what you are saying. Whereas I would agree slightly with your premise, I would have to say that elbows can be employed in a rear bearhug, although not as a singular attack, especially if the overarm version is employed.

I think you have to be careful when transferring sportive/full contact premises into the realm of the street. I would agree that they are sometime a close approximation, but do not replicate the real thing. If you disagree, then please enlighten me. As for the reasoning behind the grappling techniques, I'm afraid that I do not have enough understanding of grappling or enough background information too comment properly. Thank you for pointing it out though.

I must also point out that at no time did ICT claim how to employ elbows and knees in any given situation. All that he did claim is that he would use elbows and knees to particular areas.

I wish you two would quit acting like a couple of school kids and actually talk about your differences instead of issuing macho challenges. Thank you.

Budo.

[ICT]

Funny how I study muay thai, then?

Oh yea, I studied Muay Thai before I studied Silat so now I have a little more respect for you! If you study Muay Thai then why all the BS about grappling and my anti-grappling? It is just (1) aspect of what I teach out of many, including grappling.


Gee I don't remember saying that.

No but you sure implied it! Why bring up my anti-grappling or all the other grappling you have on this message.

I am now done with this tangent and will move onto other post.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[hedgehogey]

I have seen Muay Thai in Thailand, so I understand a little about what you are saying. Whereas I would agree slightly with your premise, I would have to say that elbows can be employed in a rear bearhug, although not as a singular attack, especially if the overarm version is employed.

Perhaps some experimental evidence is needed? I offer up Dan Severn VS Anthony Maccias. Macias attempts several elbows from a back clinch and is brutally suplexed on his head,TWICE, for his efforts.


I think you have to be careful when transferring sportive/full contact premises into the realm of the street. I would agree that they are sometime a close approximation, but do not replicate the real thing. If you disagree, then please enlighten me.

TEH STR33T! U LOZE!

But seriously, if you can do it on a resisting opponent you can do it on a resisting opponent (that is, in a streetfight).

A vale tudo fight, while not exactly the same thing is pretty damn close.


I wish you two would quit acting like a couple of school kids and actually talk about your differences instead of issuing macho challenges. Thank you.

Budo.

But the challenge match is an ancient martial tradition!

[hedgehogey]

Oh yea, I studied Muay Thai before I studied Silat so now I have a little more respect for you! If you study Muay Thai then why all the BS about grappling and my anti-grappling? It is just (1) aspect of what I teach out of many, including grappling.

Because your anti grappling will not stop a competent grappler.


No but you sure implied it! Why bring up my anti-grappling or all the other grappling you have on this message.

I am now done with this tangent and will move onto other post.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

Oh no you're not! Get over here!

If you know a lot about grappling, then how many submission grappling tournaments have you won? And who are these grapplers who supposedly study under you?

[ICT]

Eddie, there are many tangents that have been brought up. Indulge me if you would and follow one. The weapons you have stated you describe as easy for women to learn. How do these then compare with those you might teach men? Is there any difference?

Budo.

Budo,

No there is no difference in in the technique I teach women or men but there might be some differences as how I teach women to apply them.

I also only brought up the women thing since this is a womens self-defense topic category.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[darlph]

Been resting the lasty couple of days and now I see this post is off in different directions. you asked about women's natural weapons, Every senario is different, but let me ask you this, have you ever been heeled by a pair of stileto heels? Have you ever been hit with a 2 inch stubby heel? Feels like a hammer. One thing for a woman is not to go down, That's why you use eyes and temples as targets, they work standing or lying most of them time. You never want to take on an attacker unless you have to. Every situation is different. If they got a knife, chances are you will get cut. But try to keep as much distance between you and the weapon. Never reach for the blade. Don't rip off your shirt like in the movies. Try to manuver to make an escape. If you have to block, use the outer not the inner part of your arm. Less veins. Once you made your escape head for the nearest safe place. Make lots of noise to attract attention if you have to bang on doors. Now a days they'll call the police before they look out. Stay out of dark lonely places. You should try to avoid being attacked. But if it's to be.....sometimes no matter how aware or in what is percieved to be a safe area it happens.

[Kwajman]

Gentlemen, I'm not a moderator on this thread, but if you don't chill just a bit, I'll close it down. Making your point is one thing, but don't go too far Okay?

[hedgehogey]

Psst, Hey ICT, you still haven't answered my questions:

1) If you're so good at grappling, why haven't you won any grappling tournaments

2) Who are these grapplers that supposedly train under you?

Not to take anything away from your "antigrappling". That guy had a truly rocking mullet.

[hedgehogey]

Bullshid0WNED!!

[YODA]

Bullshid0WNED!!
This isn't a pissing contest between forums - if it becomes one you can kiss your MAP membership goodbye - again.

[hedgehogey]

Okok, Merely 0WNED.

[Reiki]

Been resting the lasty couple of days and now I see this post is off in different directions. you asked about women's natural weapons, Every senario is different, but let me ask you this, have you ever been heeled by a pair of stileto heels? Have you ever been hit with a 2 inch stubby heel? Feels like a hammer. One thing for a woman is not to go down, That's why you use eyes and temples as targets, they work standing or lying most of them time. You never want to take on an attacker unless you have to. Every situation is different. If they got a knife, chances are you will get cut. But try to keep as much distance between you and the weapon. Never reach for the blade. Don't rip off your shirt like in the movies. Try to manuver to make an escape. If you have to block, use the outer not the inner part of your arm. Less veins. Once you made your escape head for the nearest safe place. Make lots of noise to attract attention if you have to bang on doors. Now a days they'll call the police before they look out. Stay out of dark lonely places. You should try to avoid being attacked. But if it's to be.....sometimes no matter how aware or in what is percieved to be a safe area it happens.

some great points there!

I definitely agree about not wanting to go to ground with a male attacker.

I do a fair bit of BJJ style grappling and although I am pretty good as a female goes for grappling and am strong and good at getting chokes and other lovelies on, I know having worked with many larger men that I do not have the physical strenght in my body to be able to be able to fight off someone much larger and very determined for a very long time. If I can get in quickly and dominate the fight at the very beginning then i have a small chance, if not then I have to be able to finish it some other way or I am truly in the cr@p.

what about teeth & head butts as other useful weapons in close fighting?

Personally I want that mother as far away from me as I can keep him. If I have to use my feet or a pool cue or a broom up his butt or whatever, I am going to do it before I let him anywhere within grasping range.