MA vs Boxers

[CirrusFalcon]

Hey, I saw this post up somewhere in this morass of posts and was too lazy to go find it again. I just thought I'd give some input as I myself am a boxer. The original post was a man wondering what to do in a situation where he was pitted against a boxer. He believed he would be wasted by one.

A well trained boxer is extremely proficient at dodging, which we call the slip and bob. If you go against a decent boxer he will be able to dodge almost 100% of your punches even if his hands were tied behind his back. It will become even harder when he has the use of his hands because he can then parry or counterstrike.

Another problem with going against a boxer is that they train constantly for extreme speed and power so most likely in most cases, they will probably be as fast if not way faster than a Martial Artist. (I take martial arts as well so I can compare the two)

Boxers also take many hits during their fights and are accustomed to the pain. Pain will not stop them most likely. We get knocked down a lot, we break chins, noses, etc.

A few said to maybe get really close to a boxer and unleash from the "in" position. If you are going against a boxer who is tall and has a long reach this is what shorter boxers do to them so they will most likely be trained how to react in this situation. If you are against a shorter boxer, this is where they like to fight. Get back.

A few also said to maybe throw some kicks at a distance. I kickboxed as well, most boxers would dodge your kick or take it/block it, whatever, and then they'd be all over you and fast. Boxers also use angles extremely well so taking them head on fist-to-fist is not adviseable.

The only two methods I would recommend against a boxer are taking it to the ground as fast as you can, or (if you are confident in your abilities) concentrate your rear-leg rounhouse's to his lead leg thigh and be ready to protect yourself if he rushes in after your kick. If you can continuously pound that thigh he won't be able to stand, let alone fight you. If you manage to get him to the ground be sure you know some brazilian ju-jitsu or are proficient with wrestling (Boxer's tend to be very strong, but ill versed in ground tactics). Use these only if you can't outrun him, in which case run away. If you go against a kick boxer it is a whole 'nother story. Try to get them to the ground ASAP but beware of knees to the face as you go to grab a leg. You may be able to get some kick boxers or boxers for that matter to focus on your legs if you continuously use leg attacks and then smash them in the face with a punch while they are watching your feet. Other than that...pray.

[Poop-Loops]

So leg shots are bad? What about like to the shins (with the heel)? Thanks for the tips, though. :)

PL

[YODA]

Some good thoughts there CirrusFalcon, even if you tend to generalise a lot. A couple of small observations ....

There's a search button :D

The title - --- MA Vs Boxer... A boxer IS a MA :D

[Yukimushu]

I've always wondered why alot of people don't consider boxing to be a form of martial arts... I myself go to a boxing club once a week to go with my kickboxing and ju jitsu... boxing is very useful to have some knowledge in.

[Valiant84]

I think that one of the only ways to beat a boxer would be to be able to fight on the ground. You could beat a boxer with other martial arts but the thing is it takes years to become good enough at an art like kung fu to be able to use it against someone who does boxin. Or even in a street fight. The thing about boxing is because of its simplicity it is very quick to learn and therefore if you have someone doing boxing for say 2 years he would be quite a though, hardened and fast fighter whereas with most other arts like kung fu which involves a lot of movements and teqhniques, it takes a lot longer to learn and apply in actual combat.

[Freeform]

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8185&perpage=15&highlight=Boxer&pagenumber=1

There you go, try to not let this thread go the way of the previous one ;)

Col

[Combatant]

A good post. Makes me glad I do thai boxing! ;)

[DoH]

mua thai (or however you spell it) + pure boxing + a grapling art and yer set for gruesome streetfighting imho :P

even just boxing and grapling makes a deadly combo..
hell boxing alone can be NASTYYYY

[Matt_Bernius]

Any solution to beating a boxer is going to involve where you're fighting and the rules. For example, while the ground might be considered the best place to beat a boxer, I'm still going to try to avoid going to it in a self defense situation. I don't like the idea of being on the ground, in the street and in hostile territory.

And yes, boxing is a Martial Art. And yes, there are lots of situations where boxers can defintely take more traditional martial artists apart.

Welcome to MAP!

- Matt

[honest_john]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0283073578/qid=1075982664/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_8_1/202-6411384-2988634

In this book, the author spends a chapter theorising on the likely outcome of "The fight Of The Century" in other words Bruce Lee vs. Mohammed Ali, irrespective of time lines of course, we both artists metting in thier primes...

Interesting reading.

[sfjohn]

I have said this before and I will say it again because my message obviously didn't get through the first time. If you wan't to learn to beat a boxer, become a boxer. It's that simple. I heard a comment about knowing Muay Thai but to tell you the truth traditional MT boxers are not that great with their hands compared to american boxing. All I basically want to say is that if you want to learn to defeat an opponent that fights a certian way, learn that way, learn the strengths and weaknesses of it, and then use the other skills you have to help you defeat it. How do i know this way is the best way, well why do you think everyone is incorperating brazilian JJ? This methodology has worked since the beginning of time, so why mess with it now.

[Infesticon #1]

how about british boxing :p

[Timmy Boy]

I think the most obvious advantage that a martial artist has over a boxer (depending on the style) is the ability to use kicks to keep the boxer at range. I'm probably oversimplifying here, as i'm sure a good boxer is fast enough to close the distance, but I know it's what I'd do if I tried to fight one.

How good are boxers at defending against body blows? I know they are very well versed in avoiding hits to the head, but the body to me would seem like a fairly ripe target. I'd be interested to know, if anyone could tell me.

The thing that concerns me about boxers is that they do a lot more combat-based training than we do at my tang sou dao club. However, I think the main thing to realise here is that, if a martial artist fights a boxer, both will be fighting someone who fights in a completely different style to their own. Boxing, in my view, is a more highly skilled version of western streetfighting. If a westerner (who is used to how most people fight on the street) goes up against a boxer, he may be able to use his alien fighting style to confuse the boxer and catch him off guard. But I must emphasise that this is purely theory and I do have a lot of respect for boxing.

[Shortfuse]

i think alot of people think boxing is a martial art is because its american and not asian regardless of the facts

[totality]

Originally posted by Tang Sou Tim

How good are boxers at defending against body blows? I know they are very well versed in avoiding hits to the head, but the body to me would seem like a fairly ripe target. I'd be interested to know, if anyone could tell me.


better than you are. body blows are a rather large part of boxing, actually.

[Hadouken]

This may be a stupid thing to say, so everybody don't laugh at me.... but dont' "shoot fighters" or grapplers usually win the UFC's, they seem to be some pretty big guys, although no lenox louis, but then again you don't run into a lenox louis all that often either. Just a thought.

[totality]

shootfighters are not strictly grapplers, they focus as much on striking as anything else.

and no, pure grapplers do not enjoy any degree of success in mma now, because everyone cross-trains. although grappling is a vital aspect of mma.

[Charbodan]

Hey honest_john,

Just wandering which way the guy lent towards Ali or Lee?

My on thought on the matter is that if Ali was the same weight as Lee pound for pound Lee would take him.

As they were at their best, I would have to agree that the boxer is conditioned more to take the pain.

Both are legends, perhaps Lee's ground fighting and grappling knowledge would have given him an edge.

Who knows.

[Lanakin]

Well, if this were a "Street fight," I'm pretty sure a boxer would win. Well.. Of course, this all depends on both MA's training and style. If the boxer sucks, break his arm. If he doesn't.. Well.. Gonna have to take a few to the face. I pretty much agree on the thigh kicking, though.

[YODA]

Let's take a light hearted breather :D

[Lanakin]

That was rather entertaining, eh guys?

[grimel]

Originally posted by CirrusFalcon

A well trained boxer is extremely proficient at dodging, which we call the slip and bob. If you go against a decent boxer he will be able to dodge almost 100% of your punches even if his hands were tied behind his back. It will become even harder when he has the use of his hands because he can then parry or counterstrike.

Another problem with going against a boxer is that they train constantly for extreme speed and power so most likely in most cases, they will probably be as fast if not way faster than a Martial Artist. (I take martial arts as well so I can compare the two)

Being this is a family forum I won't give my exact impression of this. So, I'll just say that's retarded. The bob & weave and the slip are wonderful, but NOBODY will even come close to 100% avoidance of even bad punches with their hands tied.

Way faster? Please, wake up wipe the fairy dust from your eyes.

What MA do you take? Greco-Roman? BJJ? Or do you just goto McDojos?

Didn't notice anyone mentioning knees. Knees to the thighs are good.

[YODA]

So many generalisations, so little true understanding. Who you are dealing with is as much a factor as what they have trained in.

Grimel > I agree - Knees to the thighs are often overlooked and are VERY effective! They can work very well in combo with foot and shin stomping too, provided of course that your clinch skills are up to the job and he's not shovel hooking your ribs to bits.

[Timmy Boy]

I think the solution to this problem would be to introduce more ring-sparring to martial arts. You could spend half the lesson doing the theory and then get in the ring for the next half, allowing you to go get the best of both worlds. I can't believe that simply by doing boxing you get this superhuman ability to duck and dive, I think it's the way martial arts are taught. We do SOME free sparring at tang sou dao, and we did some in karate, but in chow gar kung fu there was none whatsoever (though we did do a lot of pad-hitting, which we don't do very much of at TSD).

[xubis]

I am going to ask to fight a boxer from around here... unfortunatley he is the county champion, I'll let you know ;)

[Hot Sauce]

Why not just kick the boxer between the legs?

[Knight_Errant]

Why not just kick the boxer between the legs?
BECAUSE HE WOULD HIT YOU!

[grimel]

I think the solution to this problem would be to introduce more ring-sparring to martial arts. .

Why bring a ring into it? Why not just add full contact sparing to most martial arts?

[Timmy Boy]

You make a good point.

[Hot Sauce]

BECAUSE HE WOULD HIT YOU!

Not if the kicking person has somekind of guard up or, like the do in Krav Maga, bend the upper body back while kicking the groin.

[Archibald]

Something everyone seems to have missed here is, why is it boxing that has been set up against all other martial arts?

The main argument (IMO...I may be dead wrong), is that boxers are extremely good at striking, so how to you get past that to beat them?

The truth is the same can be said for every martial art.

Judoka's are experts at throwing and takedowns....so how do you avoid them rushing in to a grapple and hurling you to the ground?

Tae Kwon Do practicioners are expert kickers...so how do you avoid them kicking your forarms to peices? I know boxers condition there arms, but i've seen well landed kicks completely destroy ribcages...deadly.

Alot of Jujitsuka's (among other arts) are expert unbalancers....so how do you avoid them putitng you off centre (it may sound dodgy, but the ones i've seen are damn good at it, and yes, even against someone as fast as a boxer), and then hurling you to the ground/pounding a couple of pressure points?

The point I'm trying to make here is that training in an actual art is just the foundation of a fighter. The main part is training yourelf to use that art successfully.

We've seen and heard stories of Aikidoka's (one from this very forum), taking down three guys when attacked form behind, and of Wushu practicioners surviving an attack by 15 men, some armed with knives. We see boxers pound people to nothing during matches. We see the the Secret Air Service being taught Jujitsu.

Any art can work against any other. Its just up to the individual to MAKE it work.

Just my two cents, anyway. Kindly dont hate me, heh :Angel:

ciao for now

[TM77]

Any art can work against any other. Its just up to the individual to MAKE it work.

Big AMEN to that! :)

[kickcatcher]

We see the the Secret Air Service being taught Jujitsu.


Who are they? :confused:

[M3inline6]

Something everyone seems to have missed here is, why is it boxing that has been set up against all other martial arts?

The main argument (IMO...I may be dead wrong), is that boxers are extremely good at striking, so how to you get past that to beat them?

The truth is the same can be said for every martial art.

Judoka's are experts at throwing and takedowns....so how do you avoid them rushing in to a grapple and hurling you to the ground?

Tae Kwon Do practicioners are expert kickers...so how do you avoid them kicking your forarms to peices? I know boxers condition there arms, but i've seen well landed kicks completely destroy ribcages...deadly.

Alot of Jujitsuka's (among other arts) are expert unbalancers....so how do you avoid them putitng you off centre (it may sound dodgy, but the ones i've seen are damn good at it, and yes, even against someone as fast as a boxer), and then hurling you to the ground/pounding a couple of pressure points?

The point I'm trying to make here is that training in an actual art is just the foundation of a fighter. The main part is training yourelf to use that art successfully.

We've seen and heard stories of Aikidoka's (one from this very forum), taking down three guys when attacked form behind, and of Wushu practicioners surviving an attack by 15 men, some armed with knives. We see boxers pound people to nothing during matches. We see the the Secret Air Service being taught Jujitsu.

Any art can work against any other. Its just up to the individual to MAKE it work.

Just my two cents, anyway. Kindly dont hate me, heh :Angel:

ciao for now

Good post! :cool:

I must say that I find this forum almost as highly entertaining as the BMW boards that I'm a part of. :D

[edd1]

Hi,
every one seems to be talking about a boxer Vs a martial artist, how many real fights a one on one, not many must fights are related to drink and very often someone who is kicking off is going to be out with his mates, he could even be trying to show off. just thinking, because as a boxer I know that a grappeler would beat me if the fight when to the floor, but what if I were the sort of person who had mates that would run up and kick whilst you thourght me. On the oposit a couple of good puches will KO people in a second, usefull for when your outnumberd.
Guess the point I'm getting at is that Boxing Vs Martial arts, depends on the situation.



Thourght two. someone said that boxers can be really tough after only a little training, because of the simplicity of training. whilst this is true to some extent I think that it is mainly to do with the training ethos behind boxing, lots or regular training, and plenty of actuially puting what you are being taurght in to practace, ie full contact sparing.

[Archibald]

Can't work out how to Quote, so i'll do it the old fashioned way...

"Who are they? :confused:"

Sorry, should have explained that. The S.A.S is Austrlaia's Special Air Service, or to put it in cooler terms, secret agents.

"Good post! :cool:"

Why thankyou *takes a bow

"I must say that I find this forum almost as highly entertaining as the BMW boards that I'm a part of. :D "

My work here is done ;)

[xubis]

Exellent post! Hear hear

[Archibald]

Why thanks Xubis...by the way...i'm really jealous of your little avatar....daaammm youuu......*waves his fist

[BangkokBabay]

Currently in NYC there is alot of Muay Thai fights up and coming, and finding matches for bouts has been somewhat difficult in regards to the Boxing vs Muay Thai competitors. We are in need of more Muay Thai fighters and cards are being filled with a few Muay Thai fighters vs Boxers that are learning how to throw kicks in just a matter of a few weeks so they can be in the fight.

The majority of these fights are won by the fighter with strong boxing skills. Due to them being a striker, head hunter and speed. Also many experienced Muay Thai fighters are starting to back out of participating in the fights and the fights becomes more boxing then Muay Thai!

:Angel:

[Guy Mendiola]

Something everyone seems to have missed here is, why is it boxing that has been set up against all other martial arts?

The main argument (IMO...I may be dead wrong), is that boxers are extremely good at striking, so how to you get past that to beat them?

The truth is the same can be said for every martial art.

Judoka's are experts at throwing and takedowns....so how do you avoid them rushing in to a grapple and hurling you to the ground?

Tae Kwon Do practicioners are expert kickers...so how do you avoid them kicking your forarms to peices? I know boxers condition there arms, but i've seen well landed kicks completely destroy ribcages...deadly.



This is just like say fighting a grappler on the street and if your down on the ground and they put a submission on you then say goodbye to your bones, The TKD part, it's true there are a lot of combination techniqiues like say mid roundhouse to try to take down the opponents guard then go up to the head and kick the opponent and it's like mid roundhouse to high roundhouse a good and effective strategy on the streets.

[Pro Killer]

I would have to pick the Boxer to win against any martial artist because they have incredible timing, Punching Power/ Speed and Defence. Also Boxing concentrates on Fitness more than any other MA!

[wcrevdonner]

PEople beat people. there you go, there is no denying that. HOWEVER, boxing has inherent weaknesses like all martial arts...
1) They train with bounded hands and gloves. They hit with that much power in a fight, I hope they make contact with something thats going to hurt their opponent, because if they hit the top of the skull, they will break their hand.
2) A pure boxer does not think about legs since being a boxer, he doesn't have to, and so therefore would be susceptible to any low kicks including groin kicks. A Muay Thai/normal kickboxer isn't as susceptible, but as someone stated before, their punching is not as good. However, they do have good perceptive speed...
3) They train with rules. But they do play dirty so okay, this doesn't really count!

Again, its not the art, but the practitioner...etc etc!!

[Freeform]

1) They train with bounded hands and gloves. They hit with that much power in a fight, I hope they make contact with something thats going to hurt their opponent, because if they hit the top of the skull, they will break their hand.


This is an interesting point, I've worked the door with many amateur boxers and in alot of the fights they've been in I've witnessed, sure they lay the guys out fast, but they do have a tendency to break the last two knuckles on their hands.

Bare in mind that these guys were amateur boxers though (but still very good).

Col

[Pro Killer]

Can i just that Boxers have better conditions knuckles than any other MA so they have least chance of breaking their hands than anyone else. Plus they have better punch accuracy so they chances of them hitting the skull is limited!

[semphoon]

Can i just that Boxers have better conditions knuckles than any other MA so they have least chance of breaking their hands than anyone else.

No thats wrong- EVERYTIME a boxer spars, hits pads or the bag he has his hand wrapped and gloves on top of that.

Other striking MA's like karate and tkd (itf) etc hardly ever wear wraps and actually encourage their practitioners to condition their knuckles.

[Matt_Bernius]

Can i just that Boxers have better conditions knuckles than any other MA so they have least chance of breaking their hands than anyone else. Plus they have better punch accuracy so they chances of them hitting the skull is limited!

Acutally, there have been numerous cases of boxers breaking their hands in fights because they're trained to hit with a LOT of power, often to hard areas of the body like the brain. Here's one case of this in Mike Tyson's history as an example:

Aug. 23, 1988 -- Breaks a bone in his right hand in a 4 a.m. street brawl with professional fighter Mitch Green in Harlem.

- Matt

[praying-mantis]

Can i just that Boxers have better conditions knuckles than any other MA so they have least chance of breaking their hands than anyone else.

Like semphoon said, that's wrong. Of all hard styles, Boxers have the highest chance of breaking their knuckles, or at least a very high one, because

a) they train in gloves, most others arts don't
b) they don't realy exercise their knuckles and wrists
c) Boxer's are not used to hit with the 2 front knuckles
d) when without gloves, they have a very strange fist because they're used to gloves

Oh, and I think that many people watch Boxing on TV, so they think it's superior.
You may want to kill me for this , but I think that, If I would have to pick a style for a real fight (please don't use the word street fight ;) ), I could think of 30 styles to pick, and boxing would be none of it.
I've read this thread, and people write things like "boxers hit fast and hard, they can dodge EVERY (sry but big lol) punch, they have a very good condition..."
So what, you want to tell me that someone who does Karate, or Kung Fu, or anything else does not hit hard and fast, and can't dodge strikes?

I bet that if there were Karate Tournaments on TV instead of Boxing, everyone would think that Karate is the best style for a real fight.

Could someone plz give me a REAL reason why Boxing should be such good?
I mean nothing that has to do something with the person , but with Boxing.

Hu, this thread really got me upset :)


praying-mantis

[Matt_Bernius]

Could someone plz give me a REAL reason why Boxing should be such good?
I mean nothing that has to do something with the person , but with Boxing.A consistant emphasis on practical application and pressure testing of techniques in training combined with strength development and conditioning. The fact is that boxers spend a LOT of time actively practicing their trade against a resisting opponent. And it's been clearly demonstrated that while it's not everything, the rule is that the fighter with greater amounts of flight time (plus superior conditioning) will typically win out. That's been proved time and time again.

Of course this type of training methodology isn't restricted to boxing. However, it isn't embraced in many MA programs. Programs that use these strategies typically produce superior fighters.

But perhaps the best reality check is to find a local boxing gym and see if you can go a few rounds with them.

- Matt

[Freeform]

I'd say that boxers are in general better at avoiding and catching punches than practitioners of Karate/TKD etc because they do throw them harder. So its get out of the way or lose teeth.

Col

[JurassicWarrior]

I would have to say in the U.S, the boxer often stands a better chance. The reason being, boxers do all the other stuff required for their training, the bag, rope, heavy bag, sparring, etc. Most(but not all) MAers in the US tend to do karate/kungfu/taikwondo two nights a week and that's it. Boxers training is much more rigorous. Granted Mike Tyson did bust his hand on Mitch Green's face. That can happen regardless of style. Now let's go to Japan, Okinawa, CHina Korea and the Other Asian countries of interest. While we're at it let's take boxing back in time before the Queensbury rules, and let's go to the Roman era, let's study French Savate as well. I think it's safe to say there is no real answer. The Okinawans valued karate as much as a knight valued his sword so an Okinawan karate guy is more likely than not more than a match than an American karate guy. Boxing is a sport so Americans don't quite value it like a sword. However those who do it put their hearts in to it, unlike some MAers I've seen.

[MuayThaiGuy]

a) they train in gloves, most others arts don't
Erm, that's because they actually hit things. And they hit things A LOT. Of course this is unique to the individual school, but when I tried other arts there was a lot of punching air, which doesn't teach you to punch hard.

b) they don't realy exercise their knuckles and wrists
Uh...try punching a heavy bag from hours on end like boxers do and you'll see how wrong you are.

c) Boxer's are not used to hit with the 2 front knuckles
Actually they are. Those two knuckles hit naturally when you're doing boxing style punches. What, do you think we turn our knuckles inwards or something?

d) when without gloves, they have a very strange fist because they're used to gloves
praying-mantis
You've never seen a boxing class, have you? Practically all of them involve some shadow boxing, where you're boxing in front of a mirror without gloves on. It takes exactly three seconds to teach someone how to form a proper fist, I don't know where you're seeing anything strange.


Oh, and I think that many people watch Boxing on TV, so they think it's superior.

Not around here, bud. Many of the people here have experience in many arts, and so have a good perspective. You should listen to the voice of experience.

Also, you've never fought a boxer, have you?

[Guy Mendiola]

From my previous Boxing training I think that in Boxing you do more punching instead of all these kicking arts but Boxing would teach you other excersises like bobbing & weaving drills,jumping,shadow boxing,bag punching,hand pad drills, and etc...,In between since Boxing is basically about punching it usually is more effective in punching and reflexes like in reflexes there are a lot of slipping and parrying which makes this martial art effective than others in a way in punching.

[craig jamieson]

[B]Geoff Thompson said....

in response to the doubt about MA vs Boxing, Geoff Thompson, one of the best 'real/street/combat/whatever' instructors out there said if he could take one art only, it would be boxing. most fights start at punching range, or get there very quickly, so the TKD practicioner is F**ked cos he cant kick you(i know, im a boxer and i've sparred with TKD guys). the judoka would be good if he was lucky enough to get near you, but unless he's trained in a striking art, will not be used to getting hit, probably will have a shocking guard anyway, so will leave himself open as he rushes in - boxers LOVE that, hehe!

Cheers

craig

[Freeform]

I would have to say in the U.S, the boxer often stands a better chance.

Because US boxer train differently than any other boxers?

[Pro Killer]

Because US boxer train differently than any other boxers?

They train the same as any other boxer, its just he doesnt know about any other boxer.

[wcrevdonner]

I don't know where I've read it, but Im sure theres a (dodgy!) fact out there somewhere that states that one in every three punches a boxer throws will break his/her hand without gloves. I can believe it since boxers do have an amazing amount of power when they throw a punch, and don't get me wrong they do conditoning when hitting a heavy bag, but its not specifically conditioning for the knuckles, its more for the muscular/tendon strength in the wrist and hands, not the bones. And the bones in the hand are weak. In fact there is something called a 'boxers fracture' because it is the most common boxing/fighting injury around, I think. Look up when Mikey T broke his hand...
Why should you study boxing? Like I said, it has its inherent weaknesses.
But on the plus...bobbing and weaving, possibly one of the most amazing facets a martial artist should have I think simply because it shows you how to read moves and rhythm. And the hook, which I personally think is one of the most efficient and devastating techniques you can have, should definitely be part of a MA'ist repertoire.

[MuayThaiGuy]

I don't know where I've read it, but Im sure theres a (dodgy!) fact out there somewhere that states that one in every three punches a boxer throws will break his/her hand without gloves.

I'm definitely going to have to call BS on this one, I'm 99.8359358% sure that's a made-up statistic. :D


I can believe it since boxers do have an amazing amount of power when they throw a punch, and don't get me wrong they do conditoning when hitting a heavy bag, but its not specifically conditioning for the knuckles, its more for the muscular/tendon strength in the wrist and hands, not the bones.

I'm wondering how you condition the knuckle bones in your hand? I thought the only way to increase bone density was high calcium intake and resistance training.

I also wanted to poing out that boxing schools DO instruct their students to hit the correct parts of an opponent with the gloves off. My instructor emphasized very much to punch for the nose or jaw, never the rest of the head. He also teaches us neat blocks that are designed to do things like break the hand of an opponent punching at you with an ungloved hand.

And the bones in the hand are weak. In fact there is something called a 'boxers fracture' because it is the most common boxing/fighting injury around, I think. Look up when Mikey T broke his hand...
Why should you study boxing? Like I said, it has its inherent weaknesses.

Heh, yeah, I've had one. It wasn't from punching a person though (and it was before I started studying boxing as part of Muay Thai). It involved a bad scene of me walking in on an ex girlfriend and a roommate in bed, and me punching a wall and finding there was a stud there instead of punching him. In retrospect I wish I had had a little less self control, punching him would've been a lot more satisfying and less painful. Then again SHE was the one that really deserved a punch, but I don't hit women.

[praying-mantis]

Originaly posted by MuayThaiGuy
Uh...try punching a heavy bag from hours on end like boxers do and you'll see how wrong you are.

We do train with heavy bags, just without gloves.

Actually they are. Those two knuckles hit naturally when you're doing boxing style punches. What, do you think we turn our knuckles inwards or something?

When you're wearing gloves you can't aim with the two knuckles.
You not only need to hold the wrist in the right position, but aim with those 2 knuckles.

I'm wondering how you condition the knuckle bones in your hand? I thought the only way to increase bone density was high calcium intake and resistance training.

By doing press-ups on the fists, about 400-800 a day. This works well, it helps to strenghten the wrists and the knuckles.


praying-mantis

[MuayThaiGuy]

We do train with heavy bags, just without gloves.

My point was boxers DO exercise their knuckles and wrists.


When you're wearing gloves you can't aim with the two knuckles.
You not only need to hold the wrist in the right position, but aim with those 2 knuckles.

You don't really need to hit with those two knuckles. When I'm punching without a glove on, my hand is aligned so that the knuckle of my middle finger will strike first. As I'm trained to strike deformable targets (nose, jaw, body), that knuckle will push in and the impact will also be spread to the two knuckles on either side of it. This is a great way to prevent a boxer's fracture. In fact, the only way this is going to be a problem is if I'm striking at hard targets, like the forehead or the back of the head. Boxers know not to do that because it just isn't effective.


By doing press-ups on the fists, about 400-800 a day. This works well, it helps to strenghten the wrists and the knuckles.

I'm not convinced that this will strengthen the fists in the way you think it will. I'm going to ask this in the Health and Fitness forum so that the people who are more knowledgeable in sports med will weigh in.

I think this quote from emedicine.com says a lot:
A boxer's fracture is defined as a break through the bones of the hand that form the knuckles. Some doctors use the term "brawler's fracture" rather than "boxer's fracture" because a boxer is not likely to get this injury. The less well-trained brawlers have to learn how to punch without hurting themselves.

[Guy Mendiola]

[B]Geoff Thompson said....

in response to the doubt about MA vs Boxing, Geoff Thompson, one of the best 'real/street/combat/whatever' instructors out there said if he could take one art only, it would be boxing. most fights start at punching range, or get there very quickly, so the TKD practicioner is F**ked cos he cant kick you(i know, im a boxer and i've sparred with TKD guys). the judoka would be good if he was lucky enough to get near you, but unless he's trained in a striking art, will not be used to getting hit, probably will have a shocking guard anyway, so will leave himself open as he rushes in - boxers LOVE that, hehe!

Cheers

craigThat is not true that the TKD practitoner could be F*cked because you should know that there is other styles of TKD like ITF and WTF which ITF teaches punches and WTF teachers punches also but in the tournaments it's only basically about kicking,Being a Boxer also I too like rushing in and throwing in some punches.

[shootodog]

i think alot of people think boxing is a martial art is because its american and not asian regardless of the facts


boxing is american??? when did this happened???

boxing originated in greece (helenic period).

[Andrew Green]

boxing is american??? when did this happened???

boxing originated in greece (helenic period).
He probably meant modern boxing... which is still kinda wrong...

Marquis of Queensbury Rules

That name whould give some hint as to where it originated....

And before that "London Prize Rules" also the name gives a clue....

But right now America is where the big cash is for boxing.

[shootodog]

i have cross trained in boxing, and continue to work it when i can. i has great skills training. as for boxers beating a tmaist: i would depend on the rules, the fighters, and their conditioning.

styles don't win fights. fighters win fights.

[Pro Killer]

Yea that guys abit wrong who said Boxing is american.
It was invented by the greeks then years later is was brought back by a British Man, So I dunno were he got the whole Boxing is american crap.

[spacepimp]

I am going to take this from a TKD point of view (because that what I do).

The biggest thing from my view, is not to box the boxer or grapple a grappler. My goal is to have the opponent play by my rules not me play by his. Yes this i a generalization, but you cannot sit here and say I would do x, y, z to this opponent, because every opponent is different there are some generalities, but every opponent is different.

But, I have a lot of respect and admiration for Boxers. The majority of them spend several hours a week working over the basics, hard. Most other M.A.'s take several years just to become competent in their style (everyones different but..). Boxing does not take as long to learn all the moves necessary, the rest of the time is spent perfecting against live opponents. This is where Boxing has it's largest benefit. Most Boxers hit and are hit way more often than most other M.A.s are. Therefore can generally hit harder and far more used to being hit than most other M.A.s are It is the nature of the different arts. Most other M.A.'s spend more time learning technique, before getting into any type of real sparring conditions. Like in my school we have to learn front snap kick, side kick, roundhouse, reverse punch, back hand, ridge rand, low block, side block, and high block, before we can really start any sparring.

[hedgehogey]

Don't box a boxer, don't grapple a grappler, one of the biggest, oldest, lies in MA.

Facing a competent grappler or boxer YOU WON'T HAVE A CHOICE.

It's that same "anti" mindset I keep talking about. Wanna beat a boxer? LEARN TO BOX. Then you won't be totally out of your league when he gets to his range (which he WILL do) and may have a chance of getting back to your preffered range.

Or just have a REALLY fast takedown.

[Tireces]

Actually, if you want to beat a boxer, I'd say learn to beat what he does, not learn to do what he does.

[KungfuDanny]

Boxing is a very tough and physical sport....but it IS a sport. Boxers don't trap, kick, knee, elbow, lock, pin, throw, palmstrike, sweep or do any of the painful and effective things that many martial arts do. The fact is (only IMO of course!) that a skilled martial artist ought to have to have the power, speed and techiques to beat even a good boxer.

As to whether or not boxers have more power, I don't see why. In Kung fu, Karate, TKD, power is trained to a very high level.

I hope to do boxing regularly myself in the very near future because I think it teachs some basic techiques very well and its also GREAT for fitness.

Danny

[LeadLegger]

Actually, if you want to beat a boxer, I'd say learn to beat what he does, not learn to do what he does.
I agree with Tireces. If you learn to box in an attempt to beat a boxer, you probably won't have a chance because he's been training in boxing longer than you have. You should never play another man's game, a boxer told me that once.

It's like sparring a taller person. You don't want to stay on the outside. You want to stay on the inside because it's an advantage.

[Speed]

Are you all talking about prize/sport boxing style vs asian fighting style in the ring and using rules only??


"EVERYTIME a boxer spars, hits pads or the bag he has his hand wrapped and gloves on top of that."

Maybe, but I used hand wraps and gloves the first couple months I started boxing so I wouldn't break any knuckles or hurt my wrist right away while learning basics. Now I don't use anything on my hands/wrist since my wrist and knuckles have been built up.


"Aug. 23, 1988 -- Breaks a bone in his right hand in a 4 a.m. street brawl with professional fighter Mitch Green in Harlem."

Did Mitch Green win or did that bone breaking punch send Mr Green to the gound? You can still win and have broken nuckles, think KO on that first punch. To think you'll win a street fight with no pain is silly. And Tyson is use to rules and gloves/wraps cause he's a prize fighter, not a real street fighter.


"Boxing is a very tough and physical sport....but it IS a sport."

Thats like saying asian fighting styles are nothing but an art and are just for show which isn't true. Ever think of a freestyle boxer that uses NO gloves/wraps in full contact sparring and DOESN'T have to fight by rules of the ring, so he/she throws elbows, headbutts, etc and has actually been in multi street fights.

Also boxers are starting to crosstrain, I can't be the only one. So the theory of 'take it to the ground' versus a boxer may not work if he/she crosstrains.

[Kaela]

I would like your opinion on this...

I visited a Wing Chun hall (an art which I admire for its simplicity and directness) and was training with another beginner who comes from a boxing background.

(By the way, this _is_ a true story ;) )

We were practing counter attacks against a punch to the face. The guy I was training with is a boxer, who was also visiting. The instructor asked the guy to punch to my face, which he did with a boxer's punch. The instructor stopped him, telling him to use a Wing Chun style punch.

The instructor then proceeded to say that a Wing Chun punch was more effective than boxing due to the distance a boxer's punch must travel and the time it takes to reach its target. The instructor said that a Wing Chun punch took less time (1/4 or 1/2 the time, can't remember exactly).

btw, I practice neither boxing nor Wing Chun so I'm impartial on the matter.

Kaela.

My favourite self defence technique is ru-ning.

[shootodog]

is cross training such a taboo? i appreciate what i learn from all the arts i take from.

a wing chun punch is faster than a boxers' punch? is that an average? when were the population sets of boxers and wing chun practitioners timed and averaged? are they faster than roy jones, jr.?

all i can say is this. some guy may be faster/ stronger/ more efficient than the other guy. but that's the guy, not the art.

[Pro Killer]

Wtf R u on about mate? A boxer hits harder than all them crappy martial arts!
They concentrate on all [naughty language]like flying kick thats are really weak and throw and everything wereas a boxer just punches and perfects that art so ofcourse they hit harder!

[Andy Murray]

*Ahem

[LeadLegger]

Wtf R u on about mate? A boxer hits harder than all them crappy martial arts!
They concentrate on all [naughty language]like flying kick thats are really weak and throw and everything wereas a boxer just punches and perfects that art so ofcourse they hit harder!
Have you ever been hit with a flying kick? They hurt a whole lot more than anything a boxer can dish out :woo:

[LeadLegger]

all i can say is this. some guy may be faster/ stronger/ more efficient than the other guy. but that's the guy, not the art.
It does depend on the guy, but it also depends on the technique :Angel:

[MuayThaiGuy]

Have you ever been hit with a flying kick? They hurt a whole lot more than anything a boxer can dish out :woo:
Nope, and I've never met anyone who has, even when I was in TKD. You have to at least severely stun someone to have any chance of a flying kick connecting, I can't think of an easier move to dodge.

[LeadLegger]

That wasn't the point. Pro Killer said that a boxer's punch is more powerful than a flying kick.

[totality]

this thread should probably be deleted before any of you silly martial artists go out and get beat up by a boxer. ;)



ESPECIALLY you damned grapplers.

[Freeform]

We've had some good debate on this thread and I'd hate to see it locked.

HINT

Back on topic gentlemen, no more stupid generic posts please.

Remember, I'm watching...

Col

[Kaela]

[Wtf R u on about mate? A boxer hits harder than all them crappy martial arts!
They concentrate on all [naughty language]like flying kick thats are really weak and throw and everything wereas a boxer just punches and perfects that art so ofcourse they hit harder!]

Ok, let's focus on the point of my post, which was asking for an opinion on the speed difference between a WC punch and a boxer's punch. That's what I'm on about, the speed differences between the two punches. I asked the question because I heard a WC instructor make the claim and I read a book on WC that makes the same claim (i.e. quicker punches). I invite you to visit a local bookstore and read the claims made in WC books.

You said that all martial arts are "crappy," and that they concentrate on all [naughty language] like flying kicks. Doing so is a _huge_ sweeping generalisation. Have you spent considerable time training in any martial art? Have you encountered a wide number and range of MAs from different martial styles, or only those with "crappy" flying kicks (which, I agree, are highly telegraphic and easy to evade)? If so, please add some substance to your post :)

Kaela.

[Andy Murray]

[QUOTE=KaelaOk, let's focus on the point of my post, which was asking for an opinion on the speed difference between a WC punch and a boxer's punch. That's what I'm on about, the speed differences between the two punches. I asked the question because I heard a WC instructor make the claim and I read a book on WC that makes the same claim (i.e. quicker punches). I invite you to visit a local bookstore and read the claims made in WC books.
[QUOTE]

In a primarily theoretical world, a WC punch blasting down the centreline is a quick punch. The real question is if it carries a force of such significance, that it would disrupt the boxers game.

It's all very well having a quick punch, if your opponent shrugs it off and mauls you merry!

[wooden spoon]Something that's come up recently on the forum, is boxers breaking their lower knuckles because they are not used to punching to their potential without gloves on, where some WC practitioners are![/wooden spoon]

[hedgehogey]

Having recently sparred a WCer I can attest to boxing's superior punching (and I am the world's WORST boxer) at least at long range. Maybe it would have gone differently at trapping range, but I bypassed that by shooting a single anyway.

[Kwan Jang]

-You really can't judge a system by sparring with one of it's practitioners. There are far too many variables(ability, experience,ect.). From my own experience, I would agree that most boxers are at least the equal of most WC'ers of similar experience on the outside, though usually in the trapping range, the edge would go to WC.

[wcrevdonner]

Don't get me wrong, Wing Chun people have exactly the same chance as breaking their hands up as boxers do if they don't condition, (and condition well!) I can attest to this by saying that I DID do a wc punch in a SD scenario, I DID break my hand, (and I didn't condition my hands - SURPRISE!) In fact, any style that punches with the lower three knuckles has MORE chance of damaging themselves since the lower three don't have the support of the thumb and are slightly weaker than the top two. (Thankfully I hit him hard enough so he didn't get up, but if I hadn't...thats why I always make the point that if you don't hit the right spot than you lose one of your weapons, etc etc) The point is well made though Andy...
I'd advocate palm strikes in any sort of self defence scenario. At least then you have more weapons in your arsenal - boxers only punch and so can will only think about punching, (and elbowing for the more experienced!)
With regards to the first centreline punch not working, thats why you ALWAYS multiple strike. So that if the first doesn't work, the second/third/fourth/etc will; in fact boxers do the same with combinations...

Back to topic, IMHO, a MA'ist who has good striking ability with hands and legs, (no silly kicks) will beat a boxer of similar standard simply because he has more weapons to use. (And has combinations of them both which boxers will not be used to.) But this theoretical situation never happens, so as usual, it always comes down to the practitioner...

[Kaela]

Again, thanks to the people who specifically and substantively responded to the question. :)

As we know, certain arts (none implied btw) make impressive claims and the aim of my first post was to get some opinions on one such claim.

Dare I ask another question (and risk being misunderstood again), why are people trained to attack with a closed fist when open handed strikes cause less harm to the person striking?

[LeadLegger]

good question. Plus, when you palm strike, you're more likely to strike straight instead of going to the left, kind of like a messed up hook punch. I can't explain it, but a lot of people's right hand punches will strike diagnolly and go left. You don't do that with a palm strike.

[JurassicWarrior]

Because US boxer train differently than any other boxers?
I'm sure boxers train the same. I only said U.S because I do not know how they train in MA in other countries.

[Pro Killer]

That wasn't the point. Pro Killer said that a boxer's punch is more powerful than a flying kick.


No I that a punch works more in a fight and can be used in more situations than a flying kick!

TKD is a dreadful martial to be fair the dont even allow contact to the face so your not defending the right area.

Muay Thai and Boxing own combine then u own everybody.

[Pro Killer]

[Wtf R u on about mate? A boxer hits harder than all them crappy martial arts!
They concentrate on all [naughty language]like flying kick thats are really weak and throw and everything wereas a boxer just punches and perfects that art so ofcourse they hit harder!]

Ok, let's focus on the point of my post, which was asking for an opinion on the speed difference between a WC punch and a boxer's punch. That's what I'm on about, the speed differences between the two punches. I asked the question because I heard a WC instructor make the claim and I read a book on WC that makes the same claim (i.e. quicker punches). I invite you to visit a local bookstore and read the claims made in WC books.

You said that all martial arts are "crappy," and that they concentrate on all [naughty language] like flying kicks. Doing so is a _huge_ sweeping generalisation. Have you spent considerable time training in any martial art? Have you encountered a wide number and range of MAs from different martial styles, or only those with "crappy" flying kicks (which, I agree, are highly telegraphic and easy to evade)? If so, please add some substance to your post :)

Kaela.


I've done Muay Thai which is loads better than WC, The instructor probably told you that so you would do it his way, EG. If you are a MT fighter and go into a kickboixing gym and do the kick with the shin (The MT way) then the KB instructor aint going 2 let you do it is he? He's going 2 say do it our way it better blah blah blah.

[Andy Murray]

I've done Muay Thai which is loads better than WC, The instructor probably told you that so you would do it his way, EG. If you are a MT fighter and go into a kickboixing gym and do the kick with the shin (The MT way) then the KB instructor aint going 2 let you do it is he? He's going 2 say do it our way it better blah blah blah.

How much MT have you done?

How much WC have you done?

[Freeform]

Pro Killer, I've warned you once via PM about your attitude. How about actually backing up your offensive statements with some facts? Your experiences perhaps? Some documented facts? You'll find that your posts will be better receiced if they are less offensive and backed up with facts.

You say you've 'done' MT which implies the former, so why'd you give it up? Also have you actually praticed any of the styles that you have slated?

Please fill out your profile, including your DoB so that the members here can tailor their answers to your statements.

Colin S

[KenpoDavid]

why are people trained to attack with a closed fist when open handed strikes cause less harm to the person striking?

Kempo (at least the variation I'm studying) teaches to use the appropriate weapon for the target. So If you are trying to strike to a hard target (like a head) you would use a soft weapon (like a palm heel). For a soft target (floating ribs) use a hard weapon (fist).

[KungfuDanny]

Kempo (at least the variation I'm studying) teaches to use the appropriate weapon for the target. So If you are trying to strike to a hard target (like a head) you would use a soft weapon (like a palm heel). For a soft target (floating ribs) use a hard weapon (fist).

This is the same as Yin Yang principle I've been taught in Kung fu. Strike a soft(Yin) target with a hard (Yang) strike. Or visa versa.

Danny

[Kaela]

Originally Posted by Pro Killer
[I've done Muay Thai which is loads better than WC, The instructor probably told you that so you would do it his way, EG. If you are a MT fighter and go into a kickboixing gym and do the kick with the shin (The MT way) then the KB instructor aint going 2 let you do it is he? He's going 2 say do it our way it better blah blah blah.]

Can you give examples of how MT is "loads better" than WC? Or would we be crossing into the cliche "which is the ultimate martial art" question again? :rolleyes:

If you go into a kickboxing gym and do a kick with the shin then that's probably MT, not kickboxing (unless kickboxing also uses a shin kick?). The instructor may indeed let you do it, but in all likelihood will explain the differences between the styles and ask you to do it the way the particular style that you are learning does it.

Let's give credit to instructors and assume that they do so to to protect the integrity of their particular style.

Kaela.

[Nimrook]

now the theory on the kicks against a boxer really depends on the skill, and intelligence of the boxer. If a boxer can get the timing right, your going to be off balanced when your up on one leg, he will step and strike. one or perhaps 10 times before you know what is going on. So its not really about the styles but about the fighters. If you have the brains then you've already won the fight

[semphoon]

If you go into a kickboxing gym and do a kick with the shin then that's probably MT, not kickboxing (unless kickboxing also uses a shin kick?).
Kaela.

Kickboxers also use the shin but not exclusively.

[Kaela]

Kickboxers also use the shin but not exclusively.

Thanks :)

I don't know much about kickboxing , hence the use of "probably" in my previous post to deflect any attacks ;)

Kaela

[C-Fugazi]

As the old saying goes "Its not the dog in the fight but the fight in the dog."

I've read a lot of the posts on this thread and it seems that there are very few people who have much boxing experience if any at all.
Boxing and MMA are both very good and each has its own good points and bad points depending on the situation.

Boxers, if taught properly can usually deliver outstanding head shots and most people when caught with a right hook for example WILL go down regardless of how much MMA experience they have.
A boxer is taught how to use speed,power and accuracy when punching.They learn how to defend from head shots and body shots and how to counter punches.(not kicks)
When you recieve a punch to the head it causes your neck to spin in an un-natural movement which in turn temporarily cuts of the oxygen supply to the brain which in turn causes you to pass out, be it 3 seconds or 3 minutes.A well rounded,experienced boxer is capable of throwing a punch that can stun you or at worst knock you out completely.
A boxer can switch from head shots to body shots (solar plexus) very quickly.Anyone who has been punched in the center of the body (directly below the rib cage) will now exactly how that feels.
Then you have a punch called 'The Mexican Hook' (upward motion into the liver) which is also a very painfull punch and when hit in a double or triple fashion the results can be awesome for the boxer and very serious for his opponent.Combine a 'Mexican Hook' with illegal kidney punches and your history.

Although boxing takes many years to master basic combinations can be used and executed correctly within months.
You may be an outstanding fighter but if you cannot take a punch your going to hit the floor very quickly.The more complex combinations take a lot longer to learn but since these are practiced in many gyms thoughout the country for many years its second nature to use them in a hostile situation with spectacular results.

Most boxers will throw a hook and follow through with an elbow,some may even hold you behind your head and uppercut several times,others may use body punches and kidney blows to fell an opponent. (All outside of the ring of course)
There is an awful lot to boxing from dodging punches,parrying or catching them and turning a defensive situation into a offensive one.
You can train to be a good fighter but in reality you have to be born tough...you cannot learn that in any gym.In other words your either 'ard or your not.

We boxers learn a lot of tricks that have been handed down by different trainers throughout the years.Some know how to break the bones in your hand by dropping thier head when you punch whilst other can evetually break an opponents wrist by the use of complex parry techniques.
A boxer will never want to fight on the ground so theres his archilles heal right there.If you try and stand and fight whether its with the use of your legs or fists the results can be devastating for his opponent so its best not to try it.

I cant say who would win between a MMA vs a Boxer because a lot would depend on the rules and the weights between the two fighters and of course experience and age.
What I do know is that an experinced boxer can deliver a nine punch combination with ease so unless you have a jaw made out of granite you may have problems.


Just my two cents of course.

[Kaela]

[reads C-Fugazi's post]

[thinks for a minute then reaches for notepad]

... be nice to boxers

[adds arrow]

...be extremely nice to boxers.

[adds to note]

...join a boxing gym.

;)

Kaela.

[Hybrid_Killer]

I've done Muay Thai which is loads better than WC, The instructor probably told you that so you would do it his way, EG. If you are a MT fighter and go into a kickboixing gym and do the kick with the shin (The MT way) then the KB instructor aint going 2 let you do it is he? He's going 2 say do it our way it better blah blah blah.

Oh and my friend told me WC is better then my MT?


Whos right :confused: ?


:)

[C-Fugazi]

Personally I think it depends on who executes his style the best.
Its whats 'upstairs' that counts.You have to have a strong belief in your ability in whatever martial art you train in.A lot of fights are lost even before anyone has thrown a punch.

Also if your un-fit then whatever style you choose wont impress anyone if your on the floor gasping for air.

[hedgehogey]

Oh and my friend told me WC is better then my MT?


Whos right :confused: ?


:)

The guy who wins.

[Radok]

/\ Wow, something I agree with. (for once)

[Guitarboy1212]

Actually they are. Those two knuckles hit naturally when you're doing boxing style punches. What, do you think we turn our knuckles inwards or something?


Boxers hit with the right 3 knuckles (left 3 for the left hand) and hit at a curve instead of straight on. this hitting style is superior and gives the lovely KO effect :)

[WatchfulAbyss]

I like my ma more than anything but i think alot of the time underestimating
someone is a big issue I box to keep my hands fast even though i like my ma better. I don't think either are supior but im better suited for the ma and enjoy fighting around with my cousin who is souly a boxer good training really helps with the style I take especially since its aikido based :D

I do have a ? though is there anyone ellse out there that would rather take a head shot opposed to a kidney shot? I mean the kidney shot is not a fight ender but it does bother me more than head shots. (when i say this i mean this as a single hit I wouldn't want either repetitively)

[Desipio]

you know, im a complete noob at all this...

but i took physics... and for some reason having the entire body flying towards you seems to me to accumulate more momentum than a boxer rooted to the ground, even if he is throwing his weight behind it... and momentum / time = impulse bla bla bla...

in conclusion, it hurts more to get a flying kick in the face than a punch in the face... weight being the same... plus, c'mon, whats the point of kickign someones ass if you arent gonna look good at it?

[WatchfulAbyss]

yes it does hurt more to get a flying kick in the head then punched but you have get the kick off and land the kick. I took tkd for a year and my instructer told me those kicks are for opportunity I for one am not going to stand there and wait for it.

[monk-ki]

Oh and my friend told me WC is better then my MT?


Whos right :confused: ?


:)

It doesn't matter who's right, only who's left!!

Seriously, though, I used to spar (semi-hard contact) with a guy who was a good boxer, and when they hit you in the head, not only does it hurt (even with pads), but your head turns when it gets hit, making it so you can't even see the next three strikes. Those will put you down. But fighting him, I learned that a simple front leg side kick to the knee would stop him up, followed with a kick to his solar plexus. After a couple shots to the knee, people start to get scared of your really fast low side kick, and stay away, which allows you to control them.

Good posts all around, I might add!

[wcrevdonner]

C-Fugazi has brought up some interesting points, especially the idea of damaging someones wrists by parry, sounds similar to something I've heard! for the pure boxers out there, by that I mean the ones who don't do kick-boxing, has anyone had any experience with sparring a kicker. If so, how did they find it, how did they overcome the kicks, etc.

[Nrv4evr]

the only real way to determine the true better sport would have to have two identical people, same age, one at the highest level of ma, the other, the greatest boxer. the boxer would have the edge, since they are trained to knock stars into the opponent's eyes. but monk-ki had a great point about kicking. they can't defend against kicks. that's their downfall.

muay thai, on the other hand...watch out. it will take one hell of a martial artist to win that fight.

[Cyrax]

the wrestler grabs the boxer...and thats all she wrote. - Rocky 3

[Sanitarium]

Boxers have extremely strong punches, conditioning, and can take a good hit or two.

If the MAist don't learn to take hits, and learn good, efficient kicking moves, they will lose to a boxer.

Who was it who said 'I'm not scared of the man who has done 1000 kicks once, but the man who's 1 kick 1000 times'. That's like boxers. Punches hurt a lot, and they refine them and refine them until they can KO people.

[spacepimp]

Who was it who said 'I'm not scared of the man who has done 1000 kicks once, but the man who's 1 kick 1000 times'. That's like boxers. Punches hurt a lot, and they refine them and refine them until they can KO people.

According to the Magazine Article IO am looking at it just attributes the qoute to an old Chinese saying. It does specifically say however "I fear not the man who practices 10,000 techniques once, but the man who practices one technique 10,000 times holds my respect".

[Gouki Long]

im completly unbiased on any of this but im wondering if someone who cross trained boxing tkd jj and hapkaido would be extremly good at fighting since they know all the other techniques and get both boxing and wrestling hands on experience have the kicks for tkd and can counter very well. that just seems like the ideal fighter to me

[Sanitarium]

Something like that yes :)

I think many MAists suffer from trying to be too all-rounded. It's not much use being mediocre in all areas, it's much better to be powerful in a few areas.

[Freeform]

muay thai, on the other hand...watch out. it will take one hell of a martial artist to win that fight.

And when did Muay Thai (or boxing for that matter) become a 'non-martial art'?

Col

[Nrv4evr]

And when did Muay Thai (or boxing for that matter) become a 'non-martial art'?

Col

k, i worded it bad...fellow martial artist. sorry about that.

[Jame$]

I would have to say that both martial arts and boxing have their strengths and weaknesses but surely if you can use your legs and arms to maximum efficiency opposed to just your arms you're gonna have a slight advantage. I am in no way dis-crediting boxing, this is just an observation that seems to make sense.

[Andy Murray]

Maybe a distinction to make, is that many people are fitting MA round about their day to day lives, and when we think of boxing, it's of the full time competitive variety.

Different animals by and large.

[Freeform]

Good point by the Modfather ;)

Is this thread still alive? :D

If a fighter lives his training, in any style, your going to be hard pushed to find somebody who isn't 'pro' that can beat him.

Col

[Knight_Errant]

Maybe the most interesting thing about this thread is that when you say 'Martial arts', people still think in terms of Asian MA. And yet, there appears to be this prejudice in society at large AGAINST asian MA e.g. "you do karate huh? have you used it on the streeee3333t?"
It's confusing.

[Guy Mendiola]

I prefer saying that Boxing is a martial art but this thread should've been a Boxer that punches and another practitioner from another art kicks so it could've have been striker vs. striker thread or something IMO.

[cxw]

A small observation for those who state that boxing's lack of kicks means it will struggle against Thai fighters - boxers use their legs. They use their legs to glide across the floor.

[shootodog]

[sighs]

this thread just won't go away will it?

[sighs]

lemme put it this way, if another m.a. practitioner can make it work against a boxer then good. if a boxer can make it work then good. the person who makes it work better will win.

[Jame$]

I train in Thai kickboxing and we too use our legs to 'glide' across the floor. The only difference is we would use them to 'glide' in and then use them to attack.

[Tribalweapon]

My brother and I were haveing a conversation the other day and he said something that made since to me. "It's not what you use but how you use it." Take this how you will

[Jame$]

I definitely agree with you. It all depends on the individual and how hard they have trained in their art.

[Albert]

I dont believe boxers are trained much to block very low blows, i.e., the knees. It would only take me a second to break a mans leg, i suppose thats the way id go, with a kick or otherwise. and what about groin shots?

[Nrv4evr]

I dont believe boxers are trained much to block very low blows, i.e., the knees. It would only take me a second to break a mans leg, i suppose thats the way id go, with a kick or otherwise. and what about groin shots?

a second to break a guy's legs? don't underestimate boxers, some have good fighting instinct. groin shots would probably be disallowed, or they would be wearing cups. you'd probably never fight a boxer on the street, so low blows wouldn't be necessary.

[Albert]

I was referring to a streetfight, actually. And you definately have a chance of meeting a boxer on the street, just as you would another martial-artist. And i wasnt under-estimating, And wasnt using 'in a second' to be totally literal and exact. And note that i said 'leg' not 'legs'. :)

[Knight_Errant]

then again, there are those in the asian TMA field who have an irrational prejudice against boxing and other western TMA, even going so far as to claim that they could destroy a boxer in seconds. If the guy can block a hard punch to his stomach, he can do the same for a knee.
THIS THREAD HAS TO DIE.

[Freeform]

I dont believe boxers are trained much to block very low blows, i.e., the knees. It would only take me a second to break a mans leg, i suppose thats the way id go, with a kick or otherwise. and what about groin shots?

How about the boxer 'just' hits you in the head 5 or 6 times. Have you every broken a mans leg before?

[Nrv4evr]

I was referring to a streetfight, actually. And you definately have a chance of meeting a boxer on the street, just as you would another martial-artist. And i wasnt under-estimating, And wasnt using 'in a second' to be totally literal and exact. And note that i said 'leg' not 'legs'. :)

if that boxer is a self-respecting person in society, he will not go out to fight you. he would probably have learned that fighting is for self-defense. if he's going out to fight people for the hell of it, he belongs in a penitentiary, not the street.

[Knight_Errant]

Thinking about it labelling something as a 'martial art' rather than a 'sport' tends to attract the undesirables like flies to warm dung. They suddenly see it as something special and artistic that, of course, glorifies principally them. It's just a label. You can keep it.

[Happeh]

Ya, I am curious too now albert. Can you break a mans leg?

I seen big giant guys in Thai boxing slam the opponents leg and have never seen one break another mans leg. Maybe they are holding back?

[Guy Mendiola]

Boxers have better hand techniques then all other martial artist out there and seriously I don't think any martial artist would be trying to kick high but low.

[Fitz]

Ok um, when u guys say boxers are extremely tough, u mean boxers like Mike Tyson, Roy Jones Jr., etc.... or just boxers in GENERAL? I got some friends who box at the gym and all they do is either punch the bag or spar, which i think every MA does. Yes, if i ever came across real boxing celebs like Jones Jr., i'd be fried. But if i went against some average Joe who just boxes at his local gym, that's a different story. As for face hits and everything, sure maybe the boxer is fast at dodging hits but there's something called a groin strike and a throat chop. Oh maybe the boxer is so tough he can withstand those two things too. If he can i'll just walk away and give up.

-Fitz

[shootodog]

i can't believe this thread is still alive!

[Knight_Errant]

Ok um, when u guys say boxers are extremely tough, u mean boxers like Mike Tyson, Roy Jones Jr., etc.... or just boxers in GENERAL? I got some friends who box at the gym and all they do is either punch the bag or spar, which i think every MA does. Yes, if i ever came across real boxing celebs like Jones Jr., i'd be fried. But if i went against some average Joe who just boxes at his local gym, that's a different story. As for face hits and everything, sure maybe the boxer is fast at dodging hits but there's something called a groin strike and a throat chop. Oh maybe the boxer is so tough he can withstand those two things too. If he can i'll just walk away and give up.
Although at least you bother to make an original point, I'd have to remind you that the level of conditioning amongst boxers, even very average ones, is generally MUCH higher than in most asian martial arts, certainly in this country. (exceptions: muay thai, kyokyushin, etc.)
Walk away and give up? what's wrong with this picture? :S

[Fitz]

Although at least you bother to make an original point, I'd have to remind you that the level of conditioning amongst boxers, even very average ones, is generally MUCH higher than in most asian martial arts, certainly in this country. (exceptions: muay thai, kyokyushin, etc.)
Walk away and give up? what's wrong with this picture? :S



Right mate. Even though boxers condition themselves to be pretty tough, i doubt they can withstand a blow to the throat. Ya can't fight if ya can't breathe, right? No matter how hard u train or condition, a good blow to the head pretty much either knock u out or kill u.

Ehm, maybe i said it in the wrong way. If the boxer man manages to withstand my best stuff, i dont literally mean i'll "walk away." I mean i'll run and retreat lol. Yeah, i'm gonna haul my ass off if i executed every humanly lethal technique on the guy (and this includes snapping his neck if i'm able to grapple him) and he's still able to function. Either that, or maybe i go grab a weapon to hit him with and see how he likes it lol.

-Fitz

[Nrv4evr]

i don't care if you're george foreman, but a shot to the ribs that breaks them will hurt. boxers don't train bareknuckle, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but that leaves off a certain resistance to bare fisted fighting. (hand only)boxing is a very good sport, i admire the strategy and training, but if you don't train with your whole body, then you better start thinking about it. that's why boxers rarely have extreme bone injuries, or pressure point knockouts below the belt.

[Knight_Errant]

anyways, I think we've established beyond all possible doubt that boxing IS a martial art, whatever its pros and cons.

Right mate. Even though boxers condition themselves to be pretty tough, i doubt they can withstand a blow to the throat. Ya can't fight if ya can't breathe, right? No matter how hard u train or condition, a good blow to the head pretty much either knock u out or kill u.

Well yeah, but the point about boxing is that you train very hard to be able to defend against precisely this sort of thing, and the conditioning they take part in helps them to do that more effectively.

[wcrevdonner]

I asked this before, and had no answers. Are there any boxers, fun/amateur/proffesional come across someone who kicked in their chosen MA? If so, please state experience of what happened, otherwise this thread will be an endless merry-go-round of unmeaningful guesses.

and that probably includes my earlier contributions!! ;)

[Nrv4evr]

I asked this before, and had no answers. Are there any boxers, fun/amateur/proffesional come across someone who kicked in their chosen MA? If so, please state experience of what happened, otherwise this thread will be an endless merry-go-round of unmeaningful guesses.

and that probably includes my earlier contributions!! ;)

that's another disadvantage that boxers have, which i mentioned and got no answer as well :cry:

boxers aren't adept at blocking low kicks, so if it came down to a streetfight, a trained karateka who had proper kicking form could "beat" a boxer.

[Andy Murray]

Why oh why do these kind of threads go on for so long?

Boxers Box!

If you want to prove your superiority to a boxer, then get in a Boxing ring and let him belt seven shades of red out of you.

Then square up to him in the car park afterwards and show him all the mystiques of your art you could have used if you weren't confined by the restrictive rule system (presuming you're not heading for the nearest casualty department heralded triumphantly by *mee maw!). puff, wheeze, gasp, someone tell me it's just a re-curring nightmare.

[pgm316]

Good question Andy, why do they go on so long? ;)

Maybe because martial artist v boxer is one of the most upredictable fights you could have. I think both will really struggle with each others styles.

I know a good martial artist that got badly beaten by a boxer, maybe because drink was involved but it was all over before we got them out of the club anyway :rolleyes:

[Andy Murray]

Maybe because martial artist v boxer is one of the most upredictable fights you could have. I think both will really struggle with each others styles.

I dunno mate, I think any Martial Artist worth their salt should have done some boxing or at least Kickboxing/MT.
Any Martial Artist worth their salt should have more than a passing familiarity with all the arts and ranges of combat!

Most don't!

Hence the discussion!

[pgm316]

I dunno mate, I think any Martial Artist worth their salt should have done some boxing or at least Kickboxing/MT.
Any Martial Artist worth their salt should have more than a passing familiarity with all the arts and ranges of combat!

Most don't!

Hence the discussion!

I agree, we can discuss it all day but it means little until you do it. I wish I'd done more kickboxing than I did, it was definitely a good experience and I'd recommend it to anyone. Even if I wasn't brave enough to get in the ring and go all out :eek:

[Andy Murray]

I agree, we can discuss it all day but it means little until you do it. I wish I'd done more kickboxing than I did, it was definitely a good experience and I'd recommend it to anyone. Even if I wasn't brave enough to get in the ring and go all out :eek:

You're too young to be using the past tense 'P'. ;)

[shootodog]

i have said this a million and one times and i'll say it again:

styles don't win fights. fighters win fights!

if you are a tma'ist that thinks he can beat a boxer in a fight, i say get off your seat, go to a gym and ask for a fight. if you're a boxer that thinks he can beat a tma-ist, then go to a dojo/ dojang and pick a fight. if you're asking about what works on the street, i suggest you go to a street and find out. all this talk is pointless because you can never control the all variables. conditioning, timing, having the "fight savvy", mind set, mood, the way the wind is blowing, etc. they all play a factor in a fight. it is never ceretis paribus in real life.

[Guy Mendiola]

Yeah, I agree it's like the arts dont win fights but it's based on the practitioner that what he/she got out of it.

[pgm316]

You're too young to be using the past tense 'P'. ;)

OK I won't argue with that! :)

I am going to do something other than kung fu, soon, very soon ;)

[ziseez]

i wanna get in on this,

i practice aikido and if i came across a boxer i would first dodge attacks with aikidos system of dodgeing or should i say moving out of the way if i was useing aikido's morales right after i side stepped a punch the boxer would withdraw but i would still be at his right side(expecting he came with the right) and i would then do my attack, that once agains comes to the practitioner not the style's.

if i where not to use aikidos morales in not hurting people permantly i would side step an attack and get in close with my knees and elbows and go for the vital areas such as uper elbows to the nose,kneeing to the private area,elbows to the throaght.just depends on what im feeling like that day.

[Matt_Bernius]

ziseez = someone who has clearly never worked out with a remotely compitent boxer (or anyone who throws punches in bunches).

- Matt

[Matt_Bernius]

Good question Andy, why do they go on so long?
*channeling Hedgehogey*

Because many MAists out there are like to talk about what they would theoretically do, but have never taken the time to work out with a boxer. Andy nailed it on the head. If you think your big and bad, go and spar a boxer. Until you do so, you're just blowing hot air.

*exorcises spirit *

- Matt

[shootodog]

i wanna get in on this,

i practice aikido and if i came across a boxer i would first dodge attacks with aikidos system of dodgeing or should i say moving out of the way if i was useing aikido's morales right after i side stepped a punch the boxer would withdraw but i would still be at his right side(expecting he came with the right) and i would then do my attack, that once agains comes to the practitioner not the style's.

if i where not to use aikidos morales in not hurting people permantly i would side step an attack and get in close with my knees and elbows and go for the vital areas such as uper elbows to the nose,kneeing to the private area,elbows to the throaght.just depends on what im feeling like that day.

er...you have yet to go up against a boxer haven't you? go up against one and try what you just said. tell the boxer to shout out his punches to you as he throws them so you'd have ample time to react. post here what happened.

[Knight_Errant]

no need to stop there- I bet we could sell the film rights to fox or somebody.
It'd be all over bullshido come morning :D
To all the 'boxing suxxors, all I have to do is kick them' people, I repeat what's already been said. Go and train with one. Preferably for around 6 months. Until then, I have four words for you:
SHUT THE HELL UP.

[shootodog]

no need to stop there- I bet we could sell the film rights to fox or somebody.
It'd be all over bullshido come morning :D
To all the 'boxing suxxors, all I have to do is kick them' people, I repeat what's already been said. Go and train with one. Preferably for around 6 months. Until then, I have four words for you:
SHUT THE HELL UP.

LOL. remember, i suggested it first. it's my idea. i should get at least 10% of the cut.

[Knight_Errant]

no room for scroungers here :p
although we could make you the 'presenter' :D

[Guy Mendiola]

Majority of Boxers are trained to keep their hands up which is a number one rule in Boxing so IMO either a kick to the stomach or just a roundhouse to an open side wouldn't necessarily ko'd them because their elbows are protecting the side sides so odds are predictable.

[Bruce_Wee]

i will use my own box-fu :woo:
ok time to run :D

[Matt_Bernius]

Guy Mendiola = someone who has clearly never worked out with a remotely competent boxer.

Trying a roundhouse against an opponent who enters hard on a straight line is going have some rather bad results.

- Matt

[leeless]

OK, has everyone finished coming in with the "I will do this and a boxer is trained to do that so I will take advantage of this and do that" post?

God damn it.

*hits head against brick wall*

[pgm316]

Guy Mendiola = someone who has clearly never worked out with a remotely competent boxer.

Trying a roundhouse against an opponent who enters hard on a straight line is going have some rather bad results.

- Matt

Matt = someone with lots of sparring time against good boxers??? :D

A well timed kick COULD be far more effective than trying to out punch a boxer. What would your game plan be?

[Matt_Bernius]

Matt = someone with lots of sparring time against good boxers??? :D

And has been knocked out a few times to prove it.

A well timed kick COULD be far more effective than trying to out punch a boxer.

Agreed, but where you're kicking is key. I would not use standard roundhouses kicks as they don't have enough stopping power. And boxers have a tendency to enter in on a hard straight line. That means that they're moving inside the power range of the kick. Considering that most standard roundhouses hit with the power of a solid jab, that won't most likely have enough stopping power at rib or head level to halt the foward progress. And you'll be on one leg as that fighter has traversed from kick range to hand range.

What would your game plan be?

Stay out of hand range to begin with. Controlling distance is important. I'd use Thai front kicks in order to preserve range and hopefully discourage a straight blast 1-2 combo.

But, excepting that, I'd probably never kick above the waist. Instead I'd utilize either stop/check kicks or thai style roundhouses to the inner and outer thigh lines (going after nerve targets to limit mobility). There is a reasons Thai Boxers fight the way they do.

Try to play a low/high/low game, using lowline kicks to draw attention. Keep my head covered and my guard extemely tight. Play to the jab side (being very cognisant of the lead tight hook) trusting the fact that many boxers use a power cross. If I have the chance employ a lead hit, rear block/parry hand structure.

If I'm feeling really sassy, or it looks like they're a little winded, I'd probably use a technique like a S.P.E.A.R. to crash their line and take him/her into trapping/knee range (trusting the fact that they aren't used to having someone that close/using elbows & knees). But that's high risk. And if I did, I'd go with MAJOR GUNS! Towards->Through->Past. If I have the opportunity (ad I think we're of equal strength) I would probably use an opportunity like this to go to the ground.

Of course in that scenario I could be being rope-a-doped and end up getting plowed by a tight hook or uppercut. Ground is a possibility, but given the strength and condition that most boxers are in (and how rusty my ground game is) I'm not sure that is as advantageous as I would like.

Honestly, I'm not at a point in my life where I would feel comfortable stepping in the ring with an average boxer and going very hard. My cardio isn't where it should be. Plus I've been concentrating for the last year on things other than sparring. The next 10 months or so I'll be refocusing my training and by the end of that I expect that I'll be doing this sorta stuff a lot more.

- Matt

[pgm316]

Good post Matt, thanks for replying. Sounds like a good game plan to me! I think your right with the straight or lower kicks instead of going for a higher round. Pobably a lower risk move.

What do you mean by the S.P.E.A.R. Is that ploughing into them shoulder first?

[hunter_kaval]

Yeah i was wondering the same what is S.P.E.A.R. :confused:

Also nice post i like the sound of your game plan. :woo:

[Matt_Bernius]

S.P.E.A.R. is more of philosophy/delivery system than a direct technique. Developed by Tony Blauer (http://www.tonyblauer.com), it stands for Spontanious Protection Enabling Accelerated Response.

The basic physical manifestation of it, is a very direct straight line "charge" in and through a person, keeping your hand out in front of you in a "spear" shape, using the principle of the unbendible elbow. One arm is intercepting the bicept line, the other is going to the clavical line. Excellent against hooks. And useful to deflect techniques while crashing the person's centerline. The overall effect is to drive the person backwards and off balance (Strangely reminisant of some Hsing Yi technqiues/concepts).

If you check out the website you can find a number of pictures of it.

- Matt

[shootodog]

matt, sounds like a plan. i too have contingency plans when i spar with a boxer.

boxing rules: box. what else can you do.

nhb rules: a little pound to bait for take down and then go to gnp or subs, whichever presents itself. i know i've got a 50-50 chance of getting knocked on my seat going in so, i won't kid myself. i find that sagasa kickboxing's rush defense works handily when the boxer goes into a flurry.

real fight: take out a weapon, any weapon. use it.

real fight 2: offer a beer or run.

note: i'd have a 30% chance at any of these to work. 70%- i'll be seeing stars sooner than i can say: "what the h..."

[Matt_Bernius]

real fight: take out a weapon, any weapon. use it.

real fight 2: offer a beer or run.
Why I love the Filipino Martial Arts.

- Matt

[ziseez]

i gotta re-add to this because old dude said i havent fought a boxer and i have, it all depends on speed of the technique to do effective things to a boxer because of the fast punches, but the boxer also has to be a good boxer for the speed,ive studied both but boxing only about a month and got bored because i saw aikido and i like throwing people lol.

[Stuart H]

An observation - how did this hypothetical fight with the boxer start? Did you square up and go at it? I would have thought had you not just been jumped, there would have been a pre-contact phase. So you could beat him the same as anyone else - non-threatening posture, verbal distraction, then pre-emptive strike.

What do you think of straight blasting a boxer?

[C-Fugazi]

If its in the ring under the Marquis of Queensbury rules (boxing rules) then who do you guys think will come out on top?
If its not under the Marquis of Queensbury rules and under MMA rules then obviously the outcome will be different.

If its on the street then there are no rules and the boxer can use any part of his body that his opponent is using.
I box and have done for the best part of twenty years and I have also trained in Karate and Aikido.
My personal opinion is that its far better to train in all styles of martial arts rather than joining a gym that can teach you 'MMA' as your simply a 'Jack of all trades but master of none'.

[Stuart H]

I would suggest getting a copy of Geoff Thompson's Watch My Back and reading the chapter on Street Fighters and Trained Fighters

[Kagebushi]

the main thing to go for is things that cant be done in a boxing ring(gouges, arm strikes, grappling, kicks, groin strikes, etc.) if you can get a good knee stomp in you can end it, and if he only boxes, he isnt likely to see it coming, of course, you have to be in punching range, which is reeealy bad, but sometimes it cant be avoided. otherwise, i'd just keep away from his fists with kicks and arm strikes (unless he jabs, i'd never be able to punch a jabbing arm) and if you somehow let him grab your foot, take advantage of the fact that at least one hand is tied up, and attack, or take it to the ground. hope he tries to clinch. if he does, that is about the best grappling oppurtunity youll ever get.

[Griffen]

I really enjoyed the post by Cirrus Falcon on boxing.
I too have often wondered about the pro's & con's between diff. styled artists, and would like to add my 2 cents.

Boxing without a doubt is an amazing art, like all disciplines, but there are a few reasons why i think a boxer would be limited against another style.

Difference in ranges: As boxers fight med-short ranges, as with the addition to kicks gives the long range combattant the advantage.

Boxers master the art of the bob & weave: Slipping various punches or countering on the opponents "beats" to attack. Other styles tend to parry & counter, "trap" (see jeet) a punch making an opening for counter/attack. The trapping not only opens a "gate" for an attack, but nullifies the punching arm that was thrown.

Some attack's are also not meant for the head or the body, as in the use of "chin-na", locks & holds. The snake style; cobra tends to attack the nevous system or actual weapon that was thrown leaving the limb numb and obvious opening for attack.

The other is gear, most boxers use gloves (diff weights) and can take a lot of punishment, but vs. bare hands makes the boxer defensively an ordinary man.

Ground fighting is a boxers nightmare.

Boxing hands down is a very reputable style and shall is give full credits by me, and as a result some styles (including mine) have adopted some of it to the mix. If you ever do encounter a boxer, do not run, chances are with his great stamina, you will be caught. make the fight 2 mins max. or start writing a will.

I would love to see a "sparring" session with a kung-fu artist(using the above) without kicks vs. a boxer without gloves.

[Guy Mendiola]

I doubt that a practitioner other from Boxing would be throwing that much kicks in the streets but it all leads up to punching which Boxing is more reliable.

[Kagebushi]

not really. some people just are better punchers. for them, yes it all leads up to punching, for me, its more kicks and locks. different people are better at different stuff.

[Albert]

There we go, archibald explained it.

[C-Fugazi]

MMA dont have the stamina,punching power or speed of a boxer of the same weight and some boxers have been known to knock an opponent out who is far heavier.

Imagine a Mike Tyson in his prime in a MMA tournament,Tank Abbott made it look easy with just his two fists and no martial arts training at all.
I would like to know how a person would go about grappling Lennox Lewis to the floor and imagine the same boxer sat on top of someone punching him to the head and body....he would probably kill him.

Put someone who is an expert at boxing or any other discipline in a MMA arena and they dont look effective.Put an expert MMA in a different enviroment with different rules and he too would fail to impress.
MMA is very good in a competition where taking the best bits from different martial arts is a winning formula.A MMA would suck in a boxing ring or an Aikido dojo where they had to abide by the rules of the gym or dojo.

We cannot say a MMA would beat a boxer in a street fight either since it would depend on the two people taking part.
You would have to take into concideration the size of the two people involved and thier fitness but more importantly the violence factor.Some people will use any means at all even if it means killing the other person and others wont.Its a case of how far your willing to take it in a street confrontation.
9/10 people will always back down but that means you then have to fight the tenth man everytime so how far would you as an individual be willing to go.
To some people reputation is more important than thier family and those very same people are willing to do jail time for the privilage of having a fearsome rep.

[Kagebushi]

not all martial artists are mmaists. there are targets that work just as well on anyone regardless of strength or pain threshhold. also if you mean by removing rules, (which is exactly what going from boxing to mma is,) it makes it harder for someone, doesnt that mean that someone is less effective? im not saying it is, but with that logic, thats what it looks like. of course, if you take out the things that work best against boxers,( by going to boxing rules) then of course boxers will win.
oh yeah, and as long as you are willing to do whatever you need to to survive, then its all about skill, regardless of how much he wants to kill you. someone tried to stab me once. i think that qualifies as wanting to kill. as you can see, i'm still here:D

[C-Fugazi]

I dont agree that its all about skill since you can be the most skillfull person in your chosen field but without mental toughness you wont have much of a chance.
You can practice all day long but unless you actually have fights on a regular basis you cannot say how good your skills actually are in a real life situation.I dont mean fighting your mates on the backyard either (not you personally mate).I mean with people who are also the best in thier chosen sport or martial arts.

I agree that not all martial artists are MMA and to be honest I dont remember every writing that either but I will say that taking the best techniques from different martial arts and then calling it MMA is humorous to say the least.
Boxing isn't a martial art as some people may think but it is a sport and a lot of people on here seem to have forgotten that and it does not pretend to be the best fighting system around either.
Anyone who is only using his fists as a defence or attacking is going to be at a far greater disadvantage than someone who is using his feet and fists combined with locks,chokes and throwing etc,common sense tells us that.

As I have already written the people that actually train in say Ju-Jitsu for many many years and then take up another sport have my utmost respect but someone who is simply just picking up bits here and there from different fighting systems does not.Its all very well people like Shamrock etc calling themselves the best in the world when they are fighting under thier own rules thats all I was trying to get across.I hope I havent bored you with my rant.

[Kagebushi]

i'm just saying, you dont have to want to kill someone to beat someone who wants to kill you.
edit: oh yeah, i agree with you comlpetely.:D

[speed_dragon]

this may be old but im going to reply anyway... i also kickbox and i took boxing for hand speed and angle attacks but one thing about a boxer that people(martial artist) know is that they are one-dimensional fighters nothing but hands and dodging. be as it may i would rather use my kickboxing technique against nestyle besides shaolin i would most likely use tae kwon doe or the brazilian ju-jitsu u prescribed...i am a us soldier so im pretty proficient in that art although i do not like it.....i would go toe-to-toe with a boxer but once he slips forward i would knee him he slip backward i would sweep his lead leg the come around for the power hip thrust kick to the ribs if i have enough time i would step in and give him the same kick to the ribs but muay thai style shin and knee

[Pyro]

Have you ever been hit with a flying kick? They hurt a whole lot more than anything a boxer can dish out :woo:

No they don't

[Timmy Boy]

Trollin' trollin' trollin', rawhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!!!

[Yukimushu]

Sending this one back to the grave.