The big stretching thread of 2011 - your questions answered!

[Van Zandt]

Every now and again I write a marathon thread about flexibility, usually an idea that pops into my head while I'm stretching on the floor in my underpants watching Bill Wallace tapes on repeat. Erm... moving on...

Rather than come up with a theme this time, I thought it might be worth giving the floor up to you guys. I've had a fair few private messages and e-mails over the past couple months from MAP's esteemed community with various questions on stretching. So if you have any questions - no matter how big or small or if you think it's been asked before - post it here and I'll include it with my response when I post the Big Stretching Thread of 2011. I'll leave this thread open until 31st March, at which point I'll collate all questions and write responses while I ask lé Mods to lock this thread.

Remember - any question is fine.

[Moi]

Shoulders. Good stretches for Map's favourite injury

[tonyv107]

Loosening the hips

[simon s]

Shoulders. Good stretches for Map's favourite injury

This is something I have always suffered with. Leg flexibility is no problem but my shoulders have never been flexible. How to stretch is not a worry, but which stretch should I use is.

[Socrastein]

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on sport-specific ranges of motion and how they should influence one's approach to stretching. I'm referring to the attempt to achieve types of flexibility and ranges of flexibility that are not found within the activities the person participates in.

Stuart McGill often references studies in his work that correlate hamstring tightness to the best performers, as in the least flexible athletes are often the best in sports that involve a lot of running and jumping. What are your thoughts on this?

In general, how do you prioritize stretching recommendations? How important is stretching to someone who has very little strength for instance? How do you balance strength and flexibility in light of the fact that hyper-mobility can be as dangerous, if not more, than hyper-tonicity?

[Fish Of Doom]

hip flexors that appear to be shortened and don't react to myofascial release (last time i tried it actually inflamed something behind my inguinal ligament, and the zone is full of knots to the point where i find it hard to feel any uninterrupted flat muscle surface at all.

[Atre]

Fantastic idea, cheers.

Correlation between flexibility and joint problems?
Does being more flexible make you more/less likely to suffer problems? The argument for flexibility is good is that you can make the range of motion demanded by your sport without crappy posture or taking muscle beyond its limits (best example being rowers need long hamstrings to not suffer back injuries)

However it seems plausible that large ranges of motion at some joints could predispose you to problems. Consider pelvis-femur, with little flexibility your ligaments and muscles are going to keep everything tightly aligned; high flexibilty means you can abrase the acetabulum at some funny angles (do you get to the limit of where cartilage covers femoral head?) that are at the limit of human capability. Stabilisation is provided actively by the muscles, so do you start to heavily wear the joint when tired or if muscle strength drops over a period of reduced exercise?*

Is this correct? Can increased flexibility lead to joint problems? If so is it linked to having a passive flexibility far in excess of static-active flexibility?


What are the healthy minimum levels of flexibility in hamstring & adductors? What is the average flexibility of these in the general population (sorry if the answer is "silly question, 'experts' have arbitrary opinions on this" & "very hard to gather data and varies massively with age and there's a huge standard deviation at any age")

Why is stretching so painful?
Seriously, when I do leg stretches they really really bloody hurt. What's the physiological reason for the pain? Didn't think muscle tissue had much in the way of sensitivity - are there specific nerves in there that fire signals to indicate worrying levels of stress in the muscle?

*I am considering this as somewhat parallel to having a torn PCL, greater play in the joint generally leads to increased wear over time even when muscles are capable of doing the ligament's job and the limb appears perfectly good in normal use.

[Lorelei]

I need info on exercises to stretch hamstrings for an 11 year old - I mentioned on another thread that my son can't touch his toes and we initially thought it was to do with his hips, but when he lies on his back he can bring his knees to his chest with no problems (explains how he managed to knee himself in the face a couple of weeks ago). He can't straighten his legs and do it though, so it looks as if his last growth spurt left his hamstrings too short for the bones. Not sure if adult exercises will be OK for him as he's still growing - what do you think?

[Van Zandt]

Great responses thus far, keep 'em coming.

[Mr.Black]

Hips. Why, during isometric front and side split, when i get it little deeper, pain in my hips is far greater then pain in my legs?

And, why, in that position, i feel something like spasms in my hips? I think i got good position, i rotated pelvise forward. However i can post a picture of myself doing splits.

Knees and stretching? While doing isometric splits, seems a lot of pressure goes over the knees. I have damaged meniscus in both knees, not much (doctor says i have at least two years till operation), and how splits affects it?

Knees and martial arts - maybe can go under stretching. I think bad tehniques in kicking can damage the knee pretty much. Like kicking roundhouse with toes over the knee and then bending your whole body and leg while kicking. Can you explain this?

This is what i can think of now..thank you for time and effort!

[PASmith]

Sorry to say I've given up on understanding stretching.
I know you've done your best to educate us Dan but I just can't keep up.
Rep's of this, timing's of that. Do this but don't do the other. Morning this, evening that. Don't touch your toes on a Tuesday. That's out of date, this is now in. This sequence, that sequence.

I do Yoga in the mornings and that's about it.

So...not really a question but if you could summarise "correct stretching" into something someone that is jaded about the whole affair can easily understand I'd be much obliged.
In a way I'm glad I'm naturally flexible because if I had to actually do some stretching I'd stick to leg kicks and forget about kicking to the head. :(

[SAMA-UK]

Can damaged ligaments/muscles from old injuries be coaxed back to life? A bad motorbike crash caused major abdominal trauma. This was 10 years ago but the "lesser" injuries to groins were left to heal on their own. I've never recovered full range of movement - but it's only become an issue now I've taken up MA. I have noticed incremental improvements but nothing major, so is it just a case of "stick at it"?

[Amber]

My current stretching routine has served me well in terms of injury prevention, but has done little in terms of increasing flexibility, especially in the legs. When kickboxing I tend to just box, and throw the occasional low kick. Is it worth my time increasing my leg flexibility, and if so, how?

[Mr.Black]

...Don't touch your toes on a Tuesday....

LOL on this.

I readed many of Van Zand't threads many times and i understood it good. But i have much knowledge about excercise before that since i am preparing for study of kineziology and i assist to conditional trainers for a year about.

However i readed dozens of books about stretching and best i got is Tom Kurtz, but VZ explains it even more simplyfied. I think he is realy thrustfull source and in tracking of todays latest knowledge. Few years ago nobody didn't know this since it wasn't discovered, and still in many countries they still do static passive stretching and isometric stretching right at the beggining of the training.

However thumbs up, Van Zandt.

[Atre]

Physiological basis of stretching
What physically happens as a result of stretching that gives us more flexibility? I actually have no idea!

Is the muscle body longer or more elastic? The ligaments? Are muscle fibres slid past one another during the stretch? Do we create tears whose repair gives the muscle more length?

[liero]

Front splits-

After a decent amount of stretching I can get a "balls to floor" front split (sorry about offensive expression) however to do it I have to turn my rear facing hips out so my back leg kind of sits like a side split.

Is this damaging to the joints/better or worse than a front split that has the heel of the rear leg pointing to the roof (Ie instep and shins on the floor)???

[Kuma]

Since you mentioned joint rotations in your stretching for high kicks thread, what joint rotations have you found are the most valuable for those who spend a lot of time kicking and punching?

[proteinnerd]

I remember reading one of the first editions of Kurz Stretching Scientifically. He stated that after a certain age a ligament in the front of the hip flexor will "set" and prevent you being able to do a true front split, instead you should do an open front split where the rear leg is rotated out in more of a side split position, with the front leg staying straight obviously. Is there any truth to this?

[righty]

Another one asking for insights into hips, particularly hip flexors. These are quite hard to stretch, especially in any sort of PNF way you generally recommend. It's sort of known the detrimental impact of sitting at a desk all day has on the hip flexors, but how does does a lot of kicking impact here as well.

What are the mechanisms behind the increased functional flexibility (in order of increasing flexibility) comparing cold, after general warmup and activity specific warmup?

Also, what is your opinion on Brad Walker and his work (if you have heard of him)?

[Ranzan]

Upper back stretches, Suffer from muscle spasms/knots in upper back shoulder blade area always find it hard to stretch out.

[hawkfish]

Can anterior pelvic tilt be corrected by stretching?

[ArthurKing]

Good thinking Dan, here's a couple from an old guy-
-a young guy i train with (he's 14) can't do side splits or even touch his toes standing up, yet he can do roundhouse and reverse-roundhouse and spinning reverse roundhouse at head height- what gives?
- i'm working on stretching at the moment (up to level 13 on your programme). I've had to give up on side stretching for the moment, my range was decreasing and i've been getting a lot of joint pain- soft tissue? My question is this, at my age, i presume my recovery is slower than younger peeps, so if i want to maintain the benefits of my stretching so far, what factors can i adjust to allow for this recovery? Stretch every 72 hours rather than 48? Take rests between tensioning? More joint rotations? More passive stretching?
I've had no measureable increase in length of stretch for some time, is this normal, will things start to move again when i hit the stretching with weights?
Thanks.

[Van Zandt]

Thanks again for all responses. Some great questions for me to work on. Just a friendly reminder that the closing date for questions to be included is 31st March.

[righty]

OK I’ll add another question

When flexibility increases, proportionately how much is due to the following changes
-Decrease in automatic activation of the partnered antagonist muscle?
-Increase in muscle/tendon length?
-Increase in muscle/tendon elasticity (stretchiness)?

And will this be different for different people?

[righty]

Hmm seems like I can't edit my posts at the moment, so I will repost below what the above post should be after thinking on it. It should be more correct this way.

OK I’ll add another question

When flexibility increases, proportionately how much is due to the following changes
-Increase in activation (strength) of the partnered antagonist muscle?
-Decrease in automatic activation of targeted muscle (the one that's at it's end of ROM)?
-Increase in muscle/tendon length?
-Increase in muscle/tendon elasticity (stretchiness)?

And will this be different for different people?

And while I'm at it, why not add some more Qs.

I just read through the isometric stretching thread. Great stuff.

-Is there anything wrong with doing all three stretches in one session i.e. side split, front split right and front split left.
-Is there any benefit to either doing three these in one season or split throughout.
-What is the minimum workout schedule per week or fortnight to improve and maintain flexibility. e.g. once a week.

Personally I feel a bit insecure doing these. I feel like my feet risk slipping on the floor and suddenly achieving the split in a most sudden, painful and uncontrolled manner. This is particularly when easing down between sets in between contractions and before the penultimate contraction. The contraction itself gives enough grip on the floor but it's not much good doing the contraction if you aren't at end of ROM because it's scary to get there. Have you got any tips on this?

[Frodocious]

How does passive flexibility affect active/dynamic flexibility? For example, if someone has horribly tight hamstrings and can't touch their toes, will they need to passively stretch as well as dynamically stretch to maximise gains in range of motion and what ratio of stretching types should they perform?

What parts of the body/muscles shouldn't be stretched (or should be stretched with care) because they function is to provide stability, e.g. knees, lower back?

Righty has also covered minimum time needed to get/maintain flexibility. Let's face it, most of us will skip the stretching part of our routine if pushed for time!

Flexibility and mobility; at what point does gaining extra flexibility in a muscle become pointless due to the fact that you can't do anything with the joint in that position?

If you do your dynamic stretching/mobility warm up but then don't do your workout for some reason, say you get delayed by a phone call, how long do you have before you need to warm up again?

[Moosey]

Are there any freeweight exercises that can strengthen the right muscles to help get a side split and/or front split? i.e. any dumbell or barbell exercises, that don't require pulleys, cables, levers etc?

[Mr.Black]

Just one more!

I train ITF Taekwondo. I am not to much flexible, not static and active stretching. But i can do most of the kicks pretty good (except roundhouse kick). Pretty good i mean i can do them strong and good technique while i do them in mid section.

In head i can do only front kick, axe kick, and turning roundhouse kick (or reverse roundhouse or however you call it) for some unknown reason.

I guess i have good dynamic flexibility. Or i adapt good to punishment derived from ballistic stretching :D

However, i guess i can gain good flexiblity for fighting just doing dynamic stretchings in shapes of kicks from taekwondo? I guess i can because i made it up like that by now.

But kicks derived like that can be strong but never perfect tehnique?

And i can't get far like that in tuls. I started to practice Eui - Am and it has few turning kicks which you have to stretch and hold. Which i can't offcourse, with left leg i can but not so high, above the belt, and with right it is funny.

For that i need static active flexibility? Which i can't have if i can't have static passive flexibility?

However just with dynamic stretching i can't get full potential in kicks, right?

Just correct me if i am wrong, please.

Thanks

[Van Zandt]

Keep 'em coming :)

[Fish Of Doom]

what are the muscles stretched during a butterfly stretch? (also diagram plz :p. trying to pinpoint one that hurts like a <BEEP> on my left leg when i do it)

[Mitch]

I'm reasonably flexible in my legs but my core (lower ribs, lower back, upper ribs) and also my neck feel tight. How do I take a more general view of my flexibility, especially now I'm older?

Mitch

[caveman]

Just like to echo what Hawk said about anterior pelvic tilt.

[jaidenthomas]

Hi, I was a personal trainer for 10 years but played alot of football and studied wing chun. My legs are rock hard but flexibility is poor. Just started kickboxing for fitness and I need some serious help!!! I feel I need to start from the begining again. My hips hurt and crack when stretching and I feel my flexibility is poor in the glutes, abductors, adductors, hams. Need a good book or dvd to get me where i want, high kicks and splits etc

[simon s]

Hi jaidenthomas, welcome to MAP.

I suggest you check out the flexibility forum and in particular this thread.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85373

[ArthurKing]

Also, good bodyweight exercises for stretching, with some info about frequency, rest periods, what to look out for (in a good and bad way).
Man, you're going to be busy, do you need to do some stretching for your typing fingers?
Cheers

[Van Zandt]

Also, good bodyweight exercises for stretching, with some info about frequency, rest periods, what to look out for (in a good and bad way).
Man, you're going to be busy, do you need to do some stretching for your typing fingers?
Cheers

Even my fingers can do the splits.

[Fish Of Doom]

Even my fingers can do the splits.

front or side splits? :p

[hawkfish]

front or side splits? :p

With as flexible as he is, I am sure his fingers can do both! ;)

[Nunoxma]

I am new around here, i'm about 20 years old and i am really interested in flexibility specially the splits. I've read Pavel's book Relax into Stretch and watched the DVD by Tom Kurz , Secrets of Stretching ( that helped me in the understanding of how isometric works and how to do them)

Here are my questions :

My big goal is the side split in what i am about 25cm from the ground, what is bad because i've been stretching for like 2 years...but just recently discovered isometrics ( about 1 year ago) so after so much FAILING in SIDE SPLIT, i decided to stop searching by myself and share my difficults and good things also with others. I can do full Open Side Split for both sides, but SIDE SPLIT IS HELL.

1- After i re-watched the Dvd by Kurz i found that it was easier tho increase ROM in side splits by starting with the Horse Stance and slowly improving the range, but i found the contractions harder because the legs are not straight and it's harder to "pinch the ground" and "imagining that you are closing your legs" is this normal ????

2- I know how to "tilt the pelvis forward" but how do i know if i am doing it right and tilting it enough ???
Because when i am close to my maximum ROM it hurts in my IT band and near to my Hip Flexor but just in right leg. That pain just happens when i contract and hold the last contraction for 30 seconds in sets, i usually do 5 sets, the first 2 i feel alright and improving, but by the 3th the pain appears and i start to progress slower, the rest 2 sets are almost unbearable and i feel pain at beginning of that sets.

3-So the problem is my posture in Isometric Horse Stance, in my Hip Alignment or what ?????

Any help will be apreciated , thank you

P.S - If you need and want i can post my routine to help you, help me :X

[seiken steve]

I've started doing PNF stretching for my hammies to try and fix my knee pain, I've also noticed a small but substantial amount of hypertrophy in that area.
Is it coincidence or have you heard of this kind of thing before?

[kombatmaster777]

Here's a mesage I PM'ed u on Feb 18th 2011 Superfoot but you didnt answer back :(

"Long time no talk man.

I haven't been on these forums for over a year. I actually came on here because I wanted to get the link to your "Beginner's Guide to Flexibility" thread and show it to my friends to prove that dynamic stretching is best done in the warm up and passive at the end of the workout.

Now I come on here and see you made a few more threads and I eventually find this:

http://danvanzandt.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html

Now I have followed your advice for over a year now and I always do dynamic stretches (3 sets front side back 12 reps each set) after I get my blood pumping in the warmup part of my workout.

However, from what I have been reading, new evidence has convinced you that dynamic stretches are as harmful as passive streches.

Care to clarify?

My Kung Fu school is getting ready for an IMAC tournament and we have the golden opportunity of structuring our own workouts (advnaced students get a say in the structure) on Thursdays. I want to get rid of their old ways of passsive stretches before workouts and have them do that after class while doing dynamic stretches in their warm up.

Your truly,

Kombat"

ALSO, I was reading your New Isometric stretching guide http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96381

and I am a bit confused since I am still using all the information from your ground breaking (at least for me:)) thread "Beginner's Guide to Flexibility" (BGF).

So on your new isometric thread I see something like this:


5 sets x 1:30 + 12.5 kg (6)

Obviously I see I have to do 5 sets here, but tensions lasting 1 min and 30 seconds is new to me.

In your BGF thread I believe you said we should tense for 7 seconds (specifically: seconds 1-5 gradually increase in tension and seconds 6 and 7 become the strongest possible tension one can produce), relase tension, and repeat until we cannot go further. At that point we hold a tension for 30 seconds, get out of the position, and rest until we start the next set.

So when you say we have to do 5 sets of 1 min 30 sec tensions each set are you saying we should tense for 7 seconds, release and repeat until we hit our limit THEN hold a 1 min 30 second tension?

Or do you mean something else?

Also, rests between sets of these. How long should they be?

Btw, should I do my isometrics as a separate workout in itself without a warm up?
I remember reading (recently actually) that you said if you train isometrics cold you will be able to hit the splits cold much easier as opposed to training with a warmed up body.


LAST question (and totally off topic :D)

What do you think about the book Body by Science by Doug McGuff?

Amazon.com: Body by Science: A Research Based Program to Get the Results You Want in 12 Minutes a Week (9780071597173): John Little, Doug McGuff: Books

One of its main claims is that all you need to do is 5 basic lifting movements for 12 minutes once a week. Sounds very gimmicky but it has gotten a lot of attention from my friends.

If Mr. McGuff's claim is correct could it be applied to isometric stretching?

(I might be getting a little too creative here hehe)

Thanks Superfoot,

pce

[Jayla]

When I'm warmed up (whether its just for a stretching session, or after a proper training night) how long do I have to do all my static stretches before my muscles are no longer "warm" and I may hurt myself?

What is the average "recovery" time after stretching? If I do a good stretching session after training at 9pm, am I good to stretch those muscles again the next morning (6am) or is that too soon into the muscle recovery?

Box split is the only stretch where I can't "relax" my muscles, any other stretch I can get into, then after a little while I can complete relax myself and just stay there for ages. With the box split my groin muscles are constantly tensed, after 20 seconds I'm literally shaking. How can I stop this? I want to be able to hold the stretch longer so I can try your isometric program.

You say that if you skip a day of doing dynamic stretches, you're back to square 1, how true is that?

[daredevil525]

Can you give a good example of a warm up routine for stretching in limited pace (a living room)?

[Jayla]

I've been stretching twice per day for X number of days now. Now I'm really sore and can't even reach my previous "maximum stretch". Do I give up for a few days (and risk losing progress) or continue with pain?

[gorinnosho]

What about a pinching pain and popping in the hips on side splits, and knee pain like twisted skin in front splits? plz help.

[MAKF]

I´m curious about flexibility and strength training. Since Kurz advocates a high-rep/low weight scheme and very specific exercises, but i read many times that big compound movements (suchs as deaths, squats, lunges, etc.) on a low-rep/high weight scheme are better for strength. How should I perform my strength training routine if focus is on the splits?

thks

[ArthurKing]

...deaths...?

[MAKF]

Sorry. I mean, "deads"

[Badger Ladder]

I would like to see a flexibility programme that caters for the everyday person who wants to be more flexible with out having to put everything else aside just to do it.
A programme for people w ho get up at 6.30 and home at 5.30..go and train 3 to 4 nights week, have partners and lives to lead too. Not proffessionals yet still seriouse about training and getting better.

Most programmes when you see the people who are saying'' this is great'' in the books or sites they are martial arts instructors who have time to do it or similar people. Time to do dynamic strecthing twice a day everday, then this, then that. And they might be great at strething but poor fighters. Id like to see a programme that doesnt mean you have to compromise on the specific fighting and fight training ,all day, everyday just to get more flexible.

[righty]

Ohhh getting close to the deadline.

I'm sort of agreeing with Badger above here. I know you advocate the need to work hard on flexibility to achieve it, but us around here already train MA and quite a lot are also doing addition strength and training work, which leaves not much time and energy for other things such as dedicated flexibility training.

So more of a request than a question would be tips on how to best integrate flexibility training into existing training be it either MA training, cardio, strength etc.

Also handy would be the minimum flexibility training (intensity, time, frequency etc) required for continued improvement in flexibility. I've touched on maintenence before but this is also related. Of course the gains won't be as fast, but it will hopefully help give an indication on how much ordinary non-bionic folks can balance our training.

Also you seem to be avocating avoiding a warmup as this will precondition you to needing a warmup to produce any hard efforts. However through reading your isometric stretching you have 'reps' directly prior to each full isometric hold. These reps are held for a decreased amount of time and in each rep you are gradually increasing the stretch. Wouldn't this also be classified as a 'warmup' even if not quite conventional. If it's not, how is it different?

[seiken steve]

I heard death isn't great for getting the splits...

[ironman800]

Hey Van, do I need to do serious stretching on my upper body too? Like arms, chest, neck, and stuff?
Or are the stretches mentioned in your beginner' flexibility thread enough?

thanks!

[juststeven]

when stretching, I have noticed my hamstrings, and the muscles in my groin area are very tight, hard, and dense. Kind of like a rope being pulled. Would a limber, flexible person's muscles feel like this? Is this what is keeping me from being more flexible, and what would you recommend to overcome this?
Thank you for helping us all out. It says a lot about you as a person that you would devote your time to help so many people.

[kombatmaster777]

Last question,

When are we going to get our questions answered? ;)

[Fish Of Doom]

one more question: can i go to the bathroom?

more seriously: for someone looking to increase mobility, what would you recommend as an ideal-ish ratio of iso stretching of the antagonists to strengthening of the agonists (eg strengthening quadriceps and hip flexors while stretching glutes and hamstrings, etc)?

[caveman]

Ok, very last one, promise. Can you post links to previous streching threads? TY.

[Potential]

If it is not too late. I would like to know the exercises to do when trying to get full split. I looked around the forum and people say lunges, deadlift, and squat. Are there anymore exercises that could help me get full split? How much weight should be use when starting out and increasing? Also, how many reps should be good for getting the full split (high weight low rep or low weight high rep?) (Not directed to van but to fellow forum members if anybody got full split yet?) I know I posted very late and if you do not want to answer I understand. Thank you very much.

[Van Zandt]

Wow, incredible response. Will be working on responses and post a reply thread when it is done. Give me a couple weeks though because my offline schedule is bloody hectic right now. Have PM'd the mods to close this thread.